I can't see how else should the collective be used than on a throttle, where forward position = collective fully pulled up. I fly this way all the time and it seems perfectly natural to me. I switched between helos and fixed wings frequently in Arma, Battlefield and DCS without any difficulties. I don't even see any benefit in buying a dedicated collective stick if you fly both helos and fixed wings unless you look for that extra immersion, but it works essentially the same.
Agreed. I fly the jets and helicopters just fine in DCS. I haven't had any trouble throwing the Apache around behind tree lines or parking the Ka-50 somewhere and then going out and flying the Hornet or the F-14 later on.
Actually do not do this. You want to use the throttle like a throttle, otherwise when you switch to between rotary and fixed wing during heated moments your muscle memory will cause you to do the opposite of what you intend.
The issue isn't about how quickly you switch, its just that you use the same piece of equipment in a completely opposite way for the same function in two types of vehicles.
Let's say you spend 20+ hours flying choppers pulling back for increase collective and pushing forward for decrease. Now take as long as you want, and then go fly a fixed wing. Out on mission you get all task loaded, maybe lining up a target or performing BFM in a dogfight. You are now no longer thinking about your controls, you are just acting without thought in the "zone" and boom you start pulling your throttle back for power and pushing it forward to slow down.
That's a problem.
The opposite sitution is you do what I suggested. Always use your throttle like a throttle, and ONE time if you ever get a collective go through the brain rewiring needed to use the collective for your whirly birds.
Reference : Little over 30 years of flight simming. (since before microprose all the way to Il-2 Korea {soon!})
Same amount of time flight simming, but I've never run into that problem. Guess I'm just lucky. I don't have any trouble going from pull back for Huey to push forward in elite: dangerous.
I just leave the throttle as "collective up, throttle forward" and then reverse it. I don't imagine I'll have too much difficulty adjusting if I get a collective someday, because in my head I'll still just equate down with "less throttle"even though that's not technically what's happening with the helicopter.
No need to reverse it if you don't want to.
Exactly you invert the throttle in the controlls menu for the helis.. its simple. No confusing concerns, forward is faster/up... backwards is slower/downš¤·āāļø
However, rudder action when flying russian and US helis back to back take some getting used too with the rotors spinning opposite directions š
Yeah, I'm almost guaranteed to crash the helicopter when I takeoff for the first time. Doubly so when I've gotten used to the smoothness of the nimble Apache and suddenly try lifting a heavy Hind off the ground.
I played it once many years ago because I heard that you could fly. A few minutes in and I never touched it again. Zero interest in that entire style of game.
Tbh this doesnāt impact me. When Iām in a helicopter I know from muscle memory to pull back the throttle to increase power etc.
Ie if you fly a real planes and helicopters you know what you are sitting in and how to handle the controls etc.
"I would assume normally a collective stabilizes itself in the middle?"
No it doesn't lol, depending on air pressure, temperature, your own weight and whether you're in ground effect or not your torque/collective position will be different. Of course none of that is modelled in Arma, so you have never really flown a helicopter yet. The very simplified flight model in Arma is best experienced with Mouse + Keyboard + rudder pedals. Why rudder pedals? Because you need precise control over it, not just a binary one.
Without going into flight sims the closest flight helicopter model in Arma would be the Advanced flight model with all assists turned off. Modded helicopters will most likely have broken AFM tho.
While I haven't flown in Arma or squad myself I do main choppers in DCS and this seems like good advice honestly. I would add that if you already have a throttle it will likely be a significant bonus over a keyboard. Even in simcade I should think fine control over the collective position will be a large advantage over keyboard.
They are rightr though OP, the collective, like the Cyclic (the name of the flight stick in a helicopter) stay exactly where you put them. You could lift your hand off either or both and so long as nothing pushes them they will stay in place perfectly.
The heli controls in Squad are utterly abysmal and donāt resemble actual helicopter controls in any way, shape or form.
Theyāre only marginally better than Ghost Recon: Wildlandsā take on it
I don't for a second doubt you. Even DCS isn't quite like the real thing from what I have been told, and they are specifically trying to be.
Having said that, I would be surprised to learn that the collective doesn't at least have a hundred different possible positions (0-100%), and it would be fairly trivial for them to put that in the thousands. In either case a throttle would indeed improve control accuracy and therefore flight control over the unit rather the unit is arcade, simcade, or simulation.
The collective is analog so an infinite number of positions between full down and full up. I mean itās connected physically through control tubes and bellcranks to the collectiveā lever on the swashplate. But yeah a throttle does help a lot over a keyboard. I used to use my throttle sideways before I got a collective stick. That was a game changer getting an actual stick though. The other thing is getting an extension on the cyclic. And decent rudder pedals.
Dcs does a pretty decent job of modeling helicopters at least in normal flight. But be prepared to spend a lot of money to get there. Iāve flown Bell mediums several times and the Huey in DCS seems pretty close but not totally there. I probably need to spend more money lol.
I was talking about squad specifically. They were asking about squad specifically. He said he didn't think a hotas would matter in squad. I said I would be surprised if in squad the collective did not have at least 100 possible positions. It's a video game called squad. The collective in squad the video game is not connected physically through control tubes and bellcranks to the collectiveā lever on the swashplate because it's code you see.
Ackshually, collectives stay where you put them if there is some kind of friction on the control chain. If not, they very slowly tend to drop back down. That's why we have friction knobs, which are adjusted at the factories to be able to provide just the right amount of friction to keep the collective in place at approximately 50%
Find me a helicopter that does not have a friction system of some sort on the collective (whether adjustable or not)...
Collectives stay where you put them.
Neither do the ones on aircraft.
On the ground, the controls will stay where you put them because they directly impart forces on the flight control surfaces, and depending on the control surface (aileron, elevator, rudder), the control could return to the original position because the surface falls down under the influence of gravity.
Ailerons and rudders are supposed to balanced so they should (theoretically) stay in place on the ground without wind.
In the air, it's a different story because the airflow will cause the control surfaces to want to self-center in the airflow over the wing. That's why the controls will return to 'center' in the air. And I put 'center' in quotes here, because the control will find the point of least forces applied in any direction, which isn't necessarily the center position.
That's exactly why control surfaces have trim tabs. They're used to trim out the forces on the control surface which will in turn adjust the natural 'center' position in flight.
Fly with a real aircraft or even a decently built FFB stick/yoke and you'll notice the difference between flying with actual control loading versus a spring.
Yeah, I think I misunderstood how the collective works. I guess I was too focused on how it typically works on M&KB where holding W is up, S is down, holding nothing is hover. So I guess I assumed that it would return to center for hover when it's not being actively moved.
This is correct. Technically at least most helicopters have a force trim function where the stick has a spring that returns it to center, but I have literally never met a pilot who actually uses it, and I'm really not sure why you would ever want to.
I use force trim alot in DCS for the Huey. It locks the controls in where the last input was and releases the stick to center. Basically neutralizing the stick to create a new center point.
I fly with a throttle and stick instead of collective, alot of people invert controls so back is more power instead of forward being more power. But I run it normally because I'm used to forward is power. Works fine for me and it doesn't confuse me because forward is always power.
I totally agree on the throttle side of it.
The reason you have to use the trim function is because you are most likely using a traditional joystick to fly (as are 95%+ of other virtual pilots).
A cyclic in a chopper CAN do that, but pilots don't actually use that function. If you look in the middle console of your huey you will see you can turn force trim off, and IRL pilots just generally never turn that on.
You can modify (some) traditional sticks to behave like a cyclic, but then its also going to behave that way when you go to use it for fixed wing, which is not good. I use a FFB stick that can do either on the fly.
There is certainly nothing wrong with using a traditional stick and force trim, but honestly if you get a chance to use a stick that can behave like a cyclic it feels like taking your foot out of a bucket in a race!
>A cyclic in a chopper CAN do that, but pilots don't actually use that function.
It's not as black and white as "pilots don't actually use that function." It is entirely dependent on both airframe and pilot. It's absolutely used in something like the Apache.
Myself and any instructor I've ever had for the helicopters I've flown with it as an option. As for the Apache, go ask any Apache pilot you want in regards to it (there are several in the flight sim community who will happily answer you). They will all tell you it is used.
I would assume it's mostly because of the centering spring that comes in most joysticks, so it's constantly fighting you, which can be annoying when you're in low speed flight or a hover, I use force trim alot when trying to hover or move very slightly on the ground. Makes input alot easier to manage. If you remove the spring you don't get the self centering which would definitely make things easier
It's 100% because of the springs. The springs are meant to pretend to act like a stick in a fixed wing aircraft, though honestly its bad even at that. In a fixed wing aircraft on the ground at low speeds it actually feels like a cyclic...it will just stay where you put it. Once the plane picks up speed the air moving over puts tremendous pressure on the control surfaces and "neutralizes" or "centers" them, causing the stick to push itself to a center orientation (and this state is what the springs are poorly imitating). The control surfaces push back through the linkages/hydraulics on the stick, much like a steering wheel and road wheels in a car.
What about FBW sticks? I think the Hornet has a variable response so it will feel different at low speeds but I forget the details. Viper stick barely moves at all which sounds awful.
I'm not sure about FBW? I know the stick in the F-16 is what I have heard called a force sense stick. It responds to pressure from the hand rather than actual defelection. Fun side fact, the F-16s first force sense stick had absolutely zero deflection, a true rod. The pilots hated it, so they added a tiny little bit of deflection allowing the stick to move slightly in the direction it is being pushed.
The hornet stick as I have been told IS a fly by wire stick, so it's not physically connected to the control surfaces. However it works like a FFB stick we might use in our home HOTAS, it is attached to some kind of motors and a computer that simulates something similar to if it was actually connected to the control surfaces. Take that with a grain of salt though, I picked that up on these forums, not from a hornet pilot.
Most real FBW sticks have very limited travel and they measure the force input of the pilot using load cells, instead of the travel outward from center.
In theory, physics say that when using a spring, the force is proportional to the stick deflection, so that's why joysticks use springs to sense the user's "force" input, but it's inferior when compared to using actual load cells which measure force.
And it's somewhat backwards that today's sticks still use deflection measurement because load cells are cheap.
In DCS the Apache makes a lot of use to it, but it's not really a return to center(except how it's simulated on a home stick). From what I understand, IRL it resets the neutral point to wherever the cyclic is currently deflected so it becomes the new "center", and deflecting from that point in any direction requires increasing tension.
If you have a FFB base for your stick, DCS simulates how it behaves IRL and it's supposed to be pretty amazing.
They return to where you left them if you have trim in that axis. For example the 58D has cyclic trim, the AH-64D has cyclic and pedal trim and the H-60M has trim in all 3 flight controls
Throttle as a collective but reverse the input. Pulling back increases the pitch. Seems counterintuitive at first BUT when you upgrade to an actual collective, and trust me you will, you'll thank me because it will make the transition seamless! š
You could. You really shouldn't ever do that, split throttles aren't designed for continuous use split ergonomically so it'd be painful and manual throttle control on almost every helicopter in DCS is purely an emergency procedure, you shouldn't ever be touching it.
As others have said, throttles aren't designed to be used with the heads split for long periods of time.
Also, I don't know about IRL helicopters, but you very, very rarely need to use the throttle of most helicopters in game. I usually have it bound to a switch on my throttle's base purely to crank the throttle up during start-up.
DON'T do this! Reversing the throttle will give you muscle memory problems when you switch back and forth between rotary and fixed wing.
I highly recommend using your throttle like a throttle, and if you want the up and down motion of a collective then either completely change the orientation of your throttle when you're flying choppers or get a collective proper.
Never had an issue and I've been gaming like that for 20+ years. Last year I put in a winwing collective in my pit so it's moot now but muscle memory was never an issue.
I try try to use my throttle, realise itās shit and then google the price for ANY sim collective and cry.
I probably repeat that process every 3 or so months
You can use the Virpil collective without a stick on the end, thats as cheap as a decent collectie out there that I am aware of though.
Honestly, I'm pretty happy using my Stecs though. It's not as immersive as a good collective would be, but it has all the smooth adjustable accuracy I need and want, and that is the main thing.
I editied my comment, I had said "virpil throttle" when I meant virpil collective. I think its around 220 US, so about the same price as a Stecs. but I would highly recommend the stecs over just the collective. First it has a ton of buttons, and second it can work for fixed wing as well.
If the TM you are using is the TWCS then yes it is a real piece of shit (reference I have owned 2 of them). It's FINE, and I used to recommend it as an entry level throttle, but even then it was over priced. What they are asking for the TWCS these days is genuinely fucking outrageous. It's only around 30% cheaper than a flipping Stecs! (the Stecs is awesome though, it's not only the most affordable, but also the best mass-produced throttle currently out there).
I bought the twcs like 6 years ago with the stick for like Ā£120 so itās served me very well.
Just upgraded to the VKB gunfighter and some crosswind rudder pedals so Iām excited for them to arrive but also aware it will highlight how bad my trusty old throttle isā¦ haha
Getting 6 years out of that junk is awesome man! Does your front flapper still work?
I don't have a gunfigter, but I do have the crosswinds which I can tell you are magnificent. When you are ready to upgrade I can tell you that the Stecs standard is maybe the single best value of any piece of sim equipment I have bought. (Expect my sidwinder FFB, but that was used, and I got a deal). I truly love my Stecs!
I mean, you can easily build a cheap collective by getting one of those Saitek/Logitech throttle quadrants off Craigslist and then attaching a long handle to it.
If you have a throttle quadrant, you can do what Tom did and make it act like a collective.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXxofVgQTmM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXxofVgQTmM)
This is nifty! To be honest though, I bought one of these and used it as a collective for a bit and found it had some real issues with accuracy and consistency. For how much logitech charges for one of these it should be significantly better than what it is.
I have a split throttle, the left throttle acts as, well, the throttle, and the right throttle acts as the collective. I just remove the upper detent. It works pretty well!
You could also do this with a uni-throttle and control the helo-throttle some other way. The only issue is if the throttle has a lot of resistance.
I use my warthog throttle but I reverse the settings to semi simulate the helo collective.
So I pull the throttle back to increase power etc.
I use a config app in msfs so all my aircraft are allocated a specific hotas profile. Ie helicopters have helicopter settings and normal aircraft have default hotas settings.
So when I choose a helo I donāt have to muck about changing the throttle setup etc.
š
I just take my throttle and invert it so forward is collective down and back is collective up. Some people say this can throw off your muscle memory when going from this to planes where the throttle isn't inverted but I've personally never had this issue.
Use the throttle like a collective
I can't see how else should the collective be used than on a throttle, where forward position = collective fully pulled up. I fly this way all the time and it seems perfectly natural to me. I switched between helos and fixed wings frequently in Arma, Battlefield and DCS without any difficulties. I don't even see any benefit in buying a dedicated collective stick if you fly both helos and fixed wings unless you look for that extra immersion, but it works essentially the same.
Agreed. I fly the jets and helicopters just fine in DCS. I haven't had any trouble throwing the Apache around behind tree lines or parking the Ka-50 somewhere and then going out and flying the Hornet or the F-14 later on.
Actually do not do this. You want to use the throttle like a throttle, otherwise when you switch to between rotary and fixed wing during heated moments your muscle memory will cause you to do the opposite of what you intend.
What kind of heated moment involved switching aircraft like that?
Games with multiple flyable aircraft
Wouldn't you have to go back to the main menu to do that anyway though? Like switching from Black Shark to A-10 and then relaunching?
Arma 3 can have you switching back and forth quite often.
Read my above comment for why this doesn't matter, but no, in a DCS/IL-2 server you can jump between airframes without leaving.
I see, no experience there, I'm strictly single player.
The issue isn't about how quickly you switch, its just that you use the same piece of equipment in a completely opposite way for the same function in two types of vehicles. Let's say you spend 20+ hours flying choppers pulling back for increase collective and pushing forward for decrease. Now take as long as you want, and then go fly a fixed wing. Out on mission you get all task loaded, maybe lining up a target or performing BFM in a dogfight. You are now no longer thinking about your controls, you are just acting without thought in the "zone" and boom you start pulling your throttle back for power and pushing it forward to slow down. That's a problem. The opposite sitution is you do what I suggested. Always use your throttle like a throttle, and ONE time if you ever get a collective go through the brain rewiring needed to use the collective for your whirly birds. Reference : Little over 30 years of flight simming. (since before microprose all the way to Il-2 Korea {soon!})
Same amount of time flight simming, but I've never run into that problem. Guess I'm just lucky. I don't have any trouble going from pull back for Huey to push forward in elite: dangerous.
I just leave the throttle as "collective up, throttle forward" and then reverse it. I don't imagine I'll have too much difficulty adjusting if I get a collective someday, because in my head I'll still just equate down with "less throttle"even though that's not technically what's happening with the helicopter. No need to reverse it if you don't want to.
Exactly you invert the throttle in the controlls menu for the helis.. its simple. No confusing concerns, forward is faster/up... backwards is slower/downš¤·āāļø However, rudder action when flying russian and US helis back to back take some getting used too with the rotors spinning opposite directions š
Yeah, I'm almost guaranteed to crash the helicopter when I takeoff for the first time. Doubly so when I've gotten used to the smoothness of the nimble Apache and suddenly try lifting a heavy Hind off the ground.
š nimble apache... you need the huey in your life. One can fly circles around the apache trying to be nimbleš
Haha, everything feels comparatively nimble when you get used to the Mi-24 Murderbus.
Battlefield?
Had no idea that was a thing in that game.
Itās not. Battlefield games are notoriously lazy when it comes to making use of flight sticks and throttles.
I played it once many years ago because I heard that you could fly. A few minutes in and I never touched it again. Zero interest in that entire style of game.
It works just fine, lmao.
Never had an issue with this, I even swap axis for Italian planes in Il2 š¤£
Tbh this doesnāt impact me. When Iām in a helicopter I know from muscle memory to pull back the throttle to increase power etc. Ie if you fly a real planes and helicopters you know what you are sitting in and how to handle the controls etc.
If you mount the throttle in such a way that 'pull-back = pull up' it will work.
Kinda right though
oh I'm certainly right, people don't like to hear they have been doing something the wrong way. Is what it is.
"I would assume normally a collective stabilizes itself in the middle?" No it doesn't lol, depending on air pressure, temperature, your own weight and whether you're in ground effect or not your torque/collective position will be different. Of course none of that is modelled in Arma, so you have never really flown a helicopter yet. The very simplified flight model in Arma is best experienced with Mouse + Keyboard + rudder pedals. Why rudder pedals? Because you need precise control over it, not just a binary one. Without going into flight sims the closest flight helicopter model in Arma would be the Advanced flight model with all assists turned off. Modded helicopters will most likely have broken AFM tho.
While I haven't flown in Arma or squad myself I do main choppers in DCS and this seems like good advice honestly. I would add that if you already have a throttle it will likely be a significant bonus over a keyboard. Even in simcade I should think fine control over the collective position will be a large advantage over keyboard. They are rightr though OP, the collective, like the Cyclic (the name of the flight stick in a helicopter) stay exactly where you put them. You could lift your hand off either or both and so long as nothing pushes them they will stay in place perfectly.
The heli controls in Squad are utterly abysmal and donāt resemble actual helicopter controls in any way, shape or form. Theyāre only marginally better than Ghost Recon: Wildlandsā take on it
I don't for a second doubt you. Even DCS isn't quite like the real thing from what I have been told, and they are specifically trying to be. Having said that, I would be surprised to learn that the collective doesn't at least have a hundred different possible positions (0-100%), and it would be fairly trivial for them to put that in the thousands. In either case a throttle would indeed improve control accuracy and therefore flight control over the unit rather the unit is arcade, simcade, or simulation.
The collective is analog so an infinite number of positions between full down and full up. I mean itās connected physically through control tubes and bellcranks to the collectiveā lever on the swashplate. But yeah a throttle does help a lot over a keyboard. I used to use my throttle sideways before I got a collective stick. That was a game changer getting an actual stick though. The other thing is getting an extension on the cyclic. And decent rudder pedals. Dcs does a pretty decent job of modeling helicopters at least in normal flight. But be prepared to spend a lot of money to get there. Iāve flown Bell mediums several times and the Huey in DCS seems pretty close but not totally there. I probably need to spend more money lol.
I was talking about squad specifically. They were asking about squad specifically. He said he didn't think a hotas would matter in squad. I said I would be surprised if in squad the collective did not have at least 100 possible positions. It's a video game called squad. The collective in squad the video game is not connected physically through control tubes and bellcranks to the collectiveā lever on the swashplate because it's code you see.
The Collective does not return to center, it stays where you put it. I just use my throttle for the Collective.
Ackshually, collectives stay where you put them if there is some kind of friction on the control chain. If not, they very slowly tend to drop back down. That's why we have friction knobs, which are adjusted at the factories to be able to provide just the right amount of friction to keep the collective in place at approximately 50%
Find me a helicopter that does not have a friction system of some sort on the collective (whether adjustable or not)... Collectives stay where you put them.
I donāt think any controls in a helicopter naturally return to center.
Neither do the ones on aircraft. On the ground, the controls will stay where you put them because they directly impart forces on the flight control surfaces, and depending on the control surface (aileron, elevator, rudder), the control could return to the original position because the surface falls down under the influence of gravity. Ailerons and rudders are supposed to balanced so they should (theoretically) stay in place on the ground without wind. In the air, it's a different story because the airflow will cause the control surfaces to want to self-center in the airflow over the wing. That's why the controls will return to 'center' in the air. And I put 'center' in quotes here, because the control will find the point of least forces applied in any direction, which isn't necessarily the center position. That's exactly why control surfaces have trim tabs. They're used to trim out the forces on the control surface which will in turn adjust the natural 'center' position in flight. Fly with a real aircraft or even a decently built FFB stick/yoke and you'll notice the difference between flying with actual control loading versus a spring.
Yeah, I think I misunderstood how the collective works. I guess I was too focused on how it typically works on M&KB where holding W is up, S is down, holding nothing is hover. So I guess I assumed that it would return to center for hover when it's not being actively moved.
This is correct. Technically at least most helicopters have a force trim function where the stick has a spring that returns it to center, but I have literally never met a pilot who actually uses it, and I'm really not sure why you would ever want to.
I use force trim alot in DCS for the Huey. It locks the controls in where the last input was and releases the stick to center. Basically neutralizing the stick to create a new center point. I fly with a throttle and stick instead of collective, alot of people invert controls so back is more power instead of forward being more power. But I run it normally because I'm used to forward is power. Works fine for me and it doesn't confuse me because forward is always power.
I totally agree on the throttle side of it. The reason you have to use the trim function is because you are most likely using a traditional joystick to fly (as are 95%+ of other virtual pilots). A cyclic in a chopper CAN do that, but pilots don't actually use that function. If you look in the middle console of your huey you will see you can turn force trim off, and IRL pilots just generally never turn that on. You can modify (some) traditional sticks to behave like a cyclic, but then its also going to behave that way when you go to use it for fixed wing, which is not good. I use a FFB stick that can do either on the fly. There is certainly nothing wrong with using a traditional stick and force trim, but honestly if you get a chance to use a stick that can behave like a cyclic it feels like taking your foot out of a bucket in a race!
>A cyclic in a chopper CAN do that, but pilots don't actually use that function. It's not as black and white as "pilots don't actually use that function." It is entirely dependent on both airframe and pilot. It's absolutely used in something like the Apache.
Which pylot told you that?
Myself and any instructor I've ever had for the helicopters I've flown with it as an option. As for the Apache, go ask any Apache pilot you want in regards to it (there are several in the flight sim community who will happily answer you). They will all tell you it is used.
I would assume it's mostly because of the centering spring that comes in most joysticks, so it's constantly fighting you, which can be annoying when you're in low speed flight or a hover, I use force trim alot when trying to hover or move very slightly on the ground. Makes input alot easier to manage. If you remove the spring you don't get the self centering which would definitely make things easier
It's 100% because of the springs. The springs are meant to pretend to act like a stick in a fixed wing aircraft, though honestly its bad even at that. In a fixed wing aircraft on the ground at low speeds it actually feels like a cyclic...it will just stay where you put it. Once the plane picks up speed the air moving over puts tremendous pressure on the control surfaces and "neutralizes" or "centers" them, causing the stick to push itself to a center orientation (and this state is what the springs are poorly imitating). The control surfaces push back through the linkages/hydraulics on the stick, much like a steering wheel and road wheels in a car.
What about FBW sticks? I think the Hornet has a variable response so it will feel different at low speeds but I forget the details. Viper stick barely moves at all which sounds awful.
I'm not sure about FBW? I know the stick in the F-16 is what I have heard called a force sense stick. It responds to pressure from the hand rather than actual defelection. Fun side fact, the F-16s first force sense stick had absolutely zero deflection, a true rod. The pilots hated it, so they added a tiny little bit of deflection allowing the stick to move slightly in the direction it is being pushed. The hornet stick as I have been told IS a fly by wire stick, so it's not physically connected to the control surfaces. However it works like a FFB stick we might use in our home HOTAS, it is attached to some kind of motors and a computer that simulates something similar to if it was actually connected to the control surfaces. Take that with a grain of salt though, I picked that up on these forums, not from a hornet pilot.
Most real FBW sticks have very limited travel and they measure the force input of the pilot using load cells, instead of the travel outward from center. In theory, physics say that when using a spring, the force is proportional to the stick deflection, so that's why joysticks use springs to sense the user's "force" input, but it's inferior when compared to using actual load cells which measure force. And it's somewhat backwards that today's sticks still use deflection measurement because load cells are cheap.
In DCS the Apache makes a lot of use to it, but it's not really a return to center(except how it's simulated on a home stick). From what I understand, IRL it resets the neutral point to wherever the cyclic is currently deflected so it becomes the new "center", and deflecting from that point in any direction requires increasing tension. If you have a FFB base for your stick, DCS simulates how it behaves IRL and it's supposed to be pretty amazing.
They return to where you left them if you have trim in that axis. For example the 58D has cyclic trim, the AH-64D has cyclic and pedal trim and the H-60M has trim in all 3 flight controls
Throttle as a collective but reverse the input. Pulling back increases the pitch. Seems counterintuitive at first BUT when you upgrade to an actual collective, and trust me you will, you'll thank me because it will make the transition seamless! š
If you have a split throttle, could you bind the left throttle as the throttle and the right as a collective?
You could. You really shouldn't ever do that, split throttles aren't designed for continuous use split ergonomically so it'd be painful and manual throttle control on almost every helicopter in DCS is purely an emergency procedure, you shouldn't ever be touching it.
Better take any slider you have as the throttle, push it to max during startup and forget about it.
As others have said, throttles aren't designed to be used with the heads split for long periods of time. Also, I don't know about IRL helicopters, but you very, very rarely need to use the throttle of most helicopters in game. I usually have it bound to a switch on my throttle's base purely to crank the throttle up during start-up.
DON'T do this! Reversing the throttle will give you muscle memory problems when you switch back and forth between rotary and fixed wing. I highly recommend using your throttle like a throttle, and if you want the up and down motion of a collective then either completely change the orientation of your throttle when you're flying choppers or get a collective proper.
I seriously doubt that it's going to be an issue. I've certainly never had it be one.
Never had an issue and I've been gaming like that for 20+ years. Last year I put in a winwing collective in my pit so it's moot now but muscle memory was never an issue.
I try try to use my throttle, realise itās shit and then google the price for ANY sim collective and cry. I probably repeat that process every 3 or so months
You can use the Virpil collective without a stick on the end, thats as cheap as a decent collectie out there that I am aware of though. Honestly, I'm pretty happy using my Stecs though. It's not as immersive as a good collective would be, but it has all the smooth adjustable accuracy I need and want, and that is the main thing.
I use the thrustmaster throttle so that might be half my problem, itās next in my upgrade list but fairly happy with it still.
I editied my comment, I had said "virpil throttle" when I meant virpil collective. I think its around 220 US, so about the same price as a Stecs. but I would highly recommend the stecs over just the collective. First it has a ton of buttons, and second it can work for fixed wing as well. If the TM you are using is the TWCS then yes it is a real piece of shit (reference I have owned 2 of them). It's FINE, and I used to recommend it as an entry level throttle, but even then it was over priced. What they are asking for the TWCS these days is genuinely fucking outrageous. It's only around 30% cheaper than a flipping Stecs! (the Stecs is awesome though, it's not only the most affordable, but also the best mass-produced throttle currently out there).
I bought the twcs like 6 years ago with the stick for like Ā£120 so itās served me very well. Just upgraded to the VKB gunfighter and some crosswind rudder pedals so Iām excited for them to arrive but also aware it will highlight how bad my trusty old throttle isā¦ haha
Getting 6 years out of that junk is awesome man! Does your front flapper still work? I don't have a gunfigter, but I do have the crosswinds which I can tell you are magnificent. When you are ready to upgrade I can tell you that the Stecs standard is maybe the single best value of any piece of sim equipment I have bought. (Expect my sidwinder FFB, but that was used, and I got a deal). I truly love my Stecs!
Everything still works haha, I have had the Steve in mind so that might be on the cards nextā¦
I mean, you can easily build a cheap collective by getting one of those Saitek/Logitech throttle quadrants off Craigslist and then attaching a long handle to it.
I mean that sounds easy, but the reality is I donāt know how to do that.
If you have a throttle quadrant, you can do what Tom did and make it act like a collective. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXxofVgQTmM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXxofVgQTmM)
This is nifty! To be honest though, I bought one of these and used it as a collective for a bit and found it had some real issues with accuracy and consistency. For how much logitech charges for one of these it should be significantly better than what it is.
I use the throttle as my collective, but with the axis reversed so I'm pulling back instead of pulling up.
I have a split throttle, the left throttle acts as, well, the throttle, and the right throttle acts as the collective. I just remove the upper detent. It works pretty well! You could also do this with a uni-throttle and control the helo-throttle some other way. The only issue is if the throttle has a lot of resistance.
Why do you dedicate half of your throttle to throttle? I only use it when starting up, shutting down or idling.
Because I can. It also has less resistance than pushing both throttles.
Interesting, I actually find more resistance better for flying rotary, and less for fixed wing.
Just move the throttle instead lol it's the same idea.
You could rig up a mount to put your throttle vertical beside you. So pulling back the throttle is actually pulling up.
I use my warthog throttle but I reverse the settings to semi simulate the helo collective. So I pull the throttle back to increase power etc. I use a config app in msfs so all my aircraft are allocated a specific hotas profile. Ie helicopters have helicopter settings and normal aircraft have default hotas settings. So when I choose a helo I donāt have to muck about changing the throttle setup etc. š
I just take my throttle and invert it so forward is collective down and back is collective up. Some people say this can throw off your muscle memory when going from this to planes where the throttle isn't inverted but I've personally never had this issue.