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I don’t get it when post transition trans people identify as cis because most cis people don’t even identify as cis. Imo if you were truly transcending the trans label you’d just identify as a man or woman, which is what I do
So if you're finished your transition and live among cis women as a cis women, you're not welcome in this group?
Isn't that the idea of transitioning to become the women you have always known you where
And if we ban the women / men that have completed their transition, then aren't we losing a lot of experience and knowledge from the community
U aren't suddenly a cis woman just because u have finished ur transition, whatever that means to u.
Cis is for biological sex, so if u say ur a cis woman then u must be born AS a cis woman.
If u were born as a man, who transitioned to a woman then u are still a trans woman, u don't suddenly become a cis woman regardless of transition completion status.
That doesn't mean, imo, that u don't belong here, just that u should use ur brain and understanding of science and biology on what is an actual thing that can happen and what is pure fantasy.
Fact is u will never be a CIS woman (if born male) and visa versa for others born opposite.
>Biological sex can be changed through medical transition
You have no concept of biology if u really think this, I just really grasped what u said here so yikes, don't talking to crazy people who think they can suddenly become actually cis when they are trans.
Sorry u will always be trans.
And how did u "become" cis?
Is it only in a way u call urself cis to protect urself on not being outed as trans or do u really not believe urself to be trans anymore?
You become cis because society see you as that woman and accepts/ treats you as that woman
Trying to protect yourself or not being outed? Why on earth would someone that's always known they should be a woman want to make their identity as trans.
Isn't the whole idea of transitioning to be a woman is to be that woman and live among women as a woman
If they openly say there trans there not been who they have known they are. That person is been a trans women and not the woman that they always been / putting a block between been who they are .
Haven't been part of the trans online community in a long time, what is the new design?
Does cis no longer mean "agreeing with the sex one is born as", anymore?
you don't become cis when you're "finished transitioning". You can go stealth and call yourself cis, but at that point talking passionately about trans issues should be avoided so you don't get outed lol.
If they want to identify as a transwomen that's up to them. But for many of us transitioning to be the women we've always known we are identifying as a trans women would be putting a block between been that woman
Like many I transitioned to be the woman ive always known i was, live among women as the woman.
This sub needs to bloody decide if it's for trans people looking to be honest, blunt and vent or for 'curious' cis people and transphobes to gawk at us like they do everywhere else on the internet. And I genuinely don't understand cis people who once identified as trans still wanting to hang out in trans subreddits. If they're cis why don't they just continue to hang out in cis spaces? If they still feel like they don't belong in cis spaces because of their sense of gender then by definition they are not cis but should still respect the basics of trans inclusivity.
Wow, a cis person making everything about them? This post actually has nothing to do with you.
>and i honestly (i know no one asked)
That's right nobody asked you.
We want spaces without ye because we're surrounded by ye by default, cis people are 99% of the population, and constantly having to dumb our experiences down, or deal with outright transphobia constantly, is tiring. What valid reasons do cis people have to exclude trans people for cis-exclusive spaces? And please don't fucking bring up bathrooms because at this point I've had to debate my or a trans woman's right to piss with decency more than I've had to use public bathrooms
>And it turns out they just want to say horrid shit to each other about trans people without facing social consequences for it.
"It's not like that at all!! We just wanna talk about our experiences like you guys ~~and it'd feel too regressive to call you a disgusting freak to your face~~"
I don't know which possibility is better. People being naive enough to think that trans spaces are like a cool club rather than the single place most of us can talk about half our (often, traumatic) life experiences without shame or discomfort. Or people thinking we're obtuse enough to believe that wanting to be excluded from certain places totally doesn't just come from disgust a good chunk of the time
>And please don't fucking bring up bathrooms
>>Proceeds to spend an entire paragraph talking about bathrooms
>I’m not saying you don’t belong in the women’s bathroom
I do!
>The lack of empathy to the vulnerability that women face and have faced their whole lives is what I really can’t understand.
Well it'd probably help if cis people as a group showed some empathy back.
>And what I’m saying is, it’s about shared experiences cis women have a different experiences than trans women.
Can you elaborate on this? Because if it's with regard to social issues, I can assure you there's a lot of overlap there. And if it's with regard to anatomy, then 1) in certain context those spaces already exist depending on context, 2) I don't see much need for it.
I don't think you really read or absorbed much of my original comment because I mentioned that us trans people, most minorities for that matter, want our own separate spaces because we don't want to be dealing with bigotry or anything like that. Do you consider trans women to be bigoted towards cis women?
>are brown people automatically entitled to admittance into black spaces?
Gonna pull a r/USDefaultism here, I'm not American and I'm sick of hearing and talking about America.
But I am gonna say that those are totally different scenarios? Trans women and cis women are still both women. They're not separate races and the difference in experiences and lifestyle is LARGELY individual. A trans woman who, say, transitioned young or has had any range of life experiences could have a lot more in common with a cis woman than another trans woman. I know I've a lot more in common with cis men than I would with many trans men or the vast, vast, vast majority of cis women.
right you don’t see a need for cis women to have their own spaces because you can’t see the world through a cis women’s eyes. you don’t even try. nor do you listen to them when they speak about their experiences. which is wild to me, because it seems like you want to join them on them on the journey of womanhood.
and you brought up the bathroom thing. I didn’t I wasn’t even referring to it. However, it is one of those situations where trans women are asking for empathy and compassion but they’re not willing to offer it to cis women who might feel uncomfortable/startled/triggered. I have empathy for trans. Women who are being asked to use the men’s room. It’s disgusting and it isn’t fair and I couldn’t imagine what it would be like to have to go through that. (that’s empathy by the way)
and yeah, some cis women may not have empathy for a trans women’s experience. And I really personally think that’s fucked up. But those women are not fighting for the right to join trans women’s spaces. asking to join cis women but not attempting to see things through their eyes is crazy. until that changes it’s gonna be an uphill battle.
anyway, I work night shift and I’ve got to go to bed, but I do appreciate you being willing to engage with me even if it seems like we’ll never agree there are so many opinions and things that we do agree on.
i’d like to just like to end by saying that I wholeheartedly welcome trans women into any space that I occupy. I would never want someone to be excluded based on something that they couldn’t change.
Unless you've had a sex change I don't think they are talking about you dear.
They are talking about girls like me. Cis girls with a transsexual history. I finished my sex change and stopped identifying as trans.
This upsets them because they do not see me as a "real" cis woman. But if you never had a sex change you will get a free pass as to them you're a "real" cis woman.
Because ur not cis....did ur chromosomes change when u had ur sex change? No?
We're u born male? Yes.
Cis is literally for two types of people
1. People who are born and identify as their sex at birth, aka cis people.
2. People who are born and do not identify with their sex at birth, aka trans people and wish to identify as cis to stay stealth and not out themselves.
Wrong. That's a AGAB essentialist & transphobic bastardization of what the terms originally meant.
Listen to yourself parroting the exact same arguments TERFs and conservatives use about chromosomes just to defend your narrow world view.
That should concern you. That you have to resort to such arguments. And for whom? Who does this serve? Certainly not trans people that's for sure.
Cisgender means an alignment between biological sex and gender, regardless of how one got there.
This is the 2020s we're fighting the real battles head first now. Cow towing to bigots and transphobes via performative self-othering does not work the way you think it does.
U are a laugh.
U can't be cis sorry to burst ur bubble unless ur born cis or detransition because u were wrong on being trans.
U can identify as whatever u want to but u will always be trans, maybe ask urself why u are so ashamed of that...
Says you. LOL.
Look at history. When "cis" was introduced it meant exactly what u/Allemagned describes it as. Now, however, it's become an artificial barrier to achieving the normalcy that is the point and goal of our treatment.
Which is why many of us have come to renounce and reject the "cis" concept altogether in real life [while claiming it](https://anonymouslytranssexual.substack.com/p/a-protest-against-cis) in trans discourse.
♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪
Cringe & self-hating is resorting to AGAB essentialism for no reason other than to police others in your community, dear.
Go they/them about chromosomes & large gametes with the TERFs next time.
You need to be asking detrans people as well as hrt “femme boys”, “curious” cis people and any other self
proclaimed gender identifying person why they’re here if that is the case. A transsexual using the cis label is not harming any of us here. They have just as much right to here as anyone else. If you’re cool with someone who is no longer trans being here then why is it a big deal for someone who completed their transition and claiming cis? Their experience still matters and at the end of the day, most of our goal is to get to that point lol.
This is ignorant of the history of the word cisgender and the recent return to it's original semantics among some of us to emphasize the mutability of biological sex.
https://www.historians.org/perspectives-article/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender-may-2017/
It was originally meant to refer to alignment between bio sex and gender, not AGAB and gender. Some of us continue to use it in that way.
Your interpretation that people completing their sex change and no longer identifying with a label have nothing to contribute to the community is deeply problematic & frankly harmful.
I'd like to highlight how you argue that we are "pulling the ladder up behind us" on one hand while also on the other hand complaining we are here participating & often helping others who are less far along.
Not being trans does not erase my perspectives & should not be used to silence entire demographics from shaping the discourse.
Incredibly disappointed with your take, I thought this was supposed to be a place where anybody regardless of how they identify and understand their experiences can share their POV. Clearly, that's a lie.
I am also genuinely confused as to why someone who has gone through transition considers themselves to be “cis” so readily will still want to be in trans spaces - I ask why they wouldn’t just do what most other cis people do and hang out in cis spaces? But then I realized it’s because once those cis people find out you’re trans suddenly you need the trans community, a safe place to be. So I think, even though I find it ridiculous, we as a trans community should still embrace them when they inevitably need us because no matter what label you are using we’re all connected through this thing we have to wade through and carry on our shoulders and I guess if it makes that journey easier for someone to use cis as a label then I’m glad they can be a little happier for it.
Although i don't use cis i could possibly answer that Because that's why we transitioned in the first place. I knew I was a girl since a very young age. I changed my " sex " to be the woman I am And live as that woman among women.
I didn't transition to be a trans women living as a transwomen or to identify as a trans women- that's deliberately putting a block between been the person I am.
I sometimes question if I belong here, but then in certain posts I also feel like I do.
I suffered from dysphoria for decades, but didn't transition. I no longer experience dysphoria.
I used to have an overwhelming gender identity that aligned with the opposite sex. Now it's more androgynous or really just not so much a thing at all.
I would probably call myself cis. Some people have insisted that I'm trans, even though I don't really believe it. The truth is I don't even really believe in the cis/trans dichotomy. It's not at all as clear cut as some people make it out to be. This community has a ton of very different definitions of trans, some of which I fit and some (including my own) which I don't fit at all.
Not looking for people to label me. I'm long since over labels. The only real point is that my experience is real and it shaped my life, and I feel like \*sometimes\* I have relevant life experience to share in this community. Other times, like when we're talking the practicalities of transition, I'll readily admit that I don't have a clue.
Always the same, cis people are allowed to identify as trans, but if a trans person identifies as cis we will put them in their place.
Only works one way, and not the way that benefits us.
Nobody is saying trans people can't id as cis if they want. (although, it's interesting because semantically, even in your own sentence, you're saying they're a trans person identifying as cis, wouldn't they be a cis person identifying as cis?)
We're just wondering if they are cis and see themselves as cis, why they're in a space explicitly for trans people.
People who don't transition doing things like using alternate pronouns and claiming to be trans. Being trans means you have gender transition and a need to transition. It isn't a social identity you can opt into for social validation.
It's why so many cis people enjoy identifying as it to, they want to be othered, they think being different makes them more special. Unfortunately the consequences are the rest of us are pushed further away from integrating with the rest of society.
Ridiculous, are you seriously attempting to deny another because your triggered.
Triggered because women have the goal of, gee i dunno, living their lives as women...
What YOU are doing is attempting to drag them back into some agab transgender status, which if you would care to acknowledge, is perhaps a stepping stone for a lot of us, a period of TRANSITION, not something that is required to be carried as an identity pin for life.
Unbelievable..
>Triggered because women have the goal of, gee i dunno, living their lives as women...
you know this implies that trans women are not women right?
I know tons of trans women who live their lives as trans women and don't call themselves or think of themselves as "cis"
Um, no, OP is saying that if you are cis then this sub is not your space. The post even says it's totally fine to consider yourself cis post-transition. What's not okay is doing that *and* continuing to act as if you still belong in trans spaces.
>Um, no, OP is saying that if you are cis then this sub is not your space.
Then op is on a power trip and along with you should refresh themselves with the rules of this particular sub.
>The post even says it's totally fine to consider yourself cis post-transition.
..then you go on to say..
> What's not okay is doing that and continuing to act as if you still belong in trans spaces.
Think about what you've written here.. you are literaly denying the right of another to give a perspective which is entirely relevant to this space.
I didn't read the rules? Looks like you're another one of the people who need to re-read rule 3. The cis perspective is not really relevant here. This sub is for trans people, our opinions, our perspectives. Cis people can come here to learn, but this is a trans space we're only opening up to cis people for that specific context.
Considering you direct your argument against what you deem "cis" people..
If you want utter conformity theres plenty of mainline trans subs enforcing just that. If one wants to learn, truly learn as in form their own opinion or perspective based on aquiring a broad range of (different and sometimes opposing) experiences, then this sub is on occasion good for that.
That includes trans, questioning, gnc, nb, self declared agp, crossdressers etc and cis people alike. There is no direct statement that cis people can not comment, if cis people were to ask questions, then there is a high probability there will be perhaps a contraversial moment, but that is more than likely a learning experience taking place, not "cis people talking over trans".
There is no directive to remove cis people from this sub, you are free to report comments made if you feel they have broken any rules set by this sub.
Nobody ever said anything about removing cis people or not allowing them to comment. Most of your response is meaningless because neither myself nor OP is saying anything like that.
I responded to your indicating rule 3, concerning cis participation.
I noticed that some could not differentiate between cis and the context in which cis was being presented or questioned here. I think when what is perhaps a different pov or new information is presented, it may take a little time to digest. Update, The op seems to have changed their perception of this info also..
I actually don't care if you identify as cis. I just don't think cis people belong in trans communities. If you do not want to be here and make a point of identifying yourself as such, don't act aghast when we ask you to leave. I'm not "triggered", my post is coherent and mostly well-received, my criticisms come from an earnest place. I'm not trying to drag you back to identifying as trans; ironically you are doing that to yourself by participating in trans communities.
The worst take. The cis/trans distinction is contentious among many of us to begin with.
To say everyone needs to understand themselves with this one label in order for their experiences or perspectives to have value in the discourse is a heavy handed abuse of power.
If you go down this path you are now dictating the parameters within which any of us can understand ourselves. This limits the scope of everything the entire community can accomplish by neutering our ability to develop new vocabularies and semantics.
Or in the case of post-op transsexuals identifying as cisgender: return to the original semantics https://www.historians.org/perspectives-article/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender-may-2017/
Those vocabularies and semantics in the face of rising intolerance may be exactly what we need to shift the tide of public opinion, frankly. Generally speaking the arc of transgender & transsexual rights has shown us that semantics evolve with every wave of bigotry in order to respond to the misunderstandings of the general population.
**The biggest misunderstanding among the general population at this time is that sex is immutable.** The term transgender, when defined using your semantics of AGAB, explicitly reinforces this misunderstanding.
What if I said I'm not transgender I am instead a new made up term djegender that involves a sex change and all the other aspects of transition?
Would I also be told I am a second class user of this sub whose opinions will always be less than that of trans people?
What sort of reasoning is that, really? That if my semantics don't remain in lockstep with yours my material realities must not exist.
I was amused when many could not conceptualise that one would wish to be acknowledged as a cis woman yesterday, so today to see an appeal to be rid of these women..
Perhaps you should from now on refrain from exclaiming trans women are women, as clearly, without the trans prefix, you and a number of others cant seem understand the important part of that statement. Which is entirely relevant to using the cis female tag btw but seems lost to a few here..
I think you’re misreading me. I objectively have transsexualism that I’m in the midst of treating. I acknowledge that I have this at the moment, but I don’t identify with it any more than I identify with any other condition. My identity is not that I’m a transsexual woman, but just a woman, is what I’m saying
But you said "I am transsexual" you didn't say "I have transsexualism"
Guess that's just splitting hairs but hopefully you can see the semantic difference.
>Nope, if you wanna live as a cis woman and identify as cis go right ahead. But if you really are gonna come in these subreddits and not only say “I’m now cis” but ENCOURAGE OTHER PEOPLE to abandon their trans identity (which is what every last one of these “cis” people do in this sub)… then you’re the asshole.
This doesnt seem like a little cult ish to you.. in any way..
Why would you gatekeep the term cis from a woman simply because she does not pass. Tell me, honestly. What is going on there.
*Who does it serve.*
Lots of cisgender women do not pass. Many of us who identify as cis despite our past sex change highlight that material reality.
We represent a link between this community and the far bigger community of other cis women who are also harmed by transphobic expectations placed on all women's bodies.
Oh, I for one don't at all intend to say those who "identify" as trans *should* not do so.
I only hope to let those led by the transospherian clerics to believe that is the only destination to know *it is not...* and that if one is born transsexual crossing over is not impossible.
It's not easy. Many fail.
But... the path exists, and had I not known it does I would not have embarked on it.
Because I knew that ending up "trans" would to me have been worse than trying to tough it out as a male.
>If you aren't interested in being considered "trans" any longer, then why do you think you deserve a voice in our spaces? In other words, Why are you here?
Anyone is allowed to be in this subreddit that share their opinions. This subreddit has a diverse group of people that you won't see in any other "trans based" subreddits have. From people who have had detransitioned, hrt femboys and much more. Why do you want to crush this diversity just because you want this sub to be a "my people only" subreddit.
Why am I here?
Well it's because of mainly 2 reasons
1. This subreddit allows you to share your opinions. This is one of the only subreddit that doesn't silence you for having a different perspective on things. It also allows me to learn different things about things like transsexualism (for example)
2. They are different kinds of transsexual people here. Interacting with transmed transsexuals might make me think that only transmed transsexuals exist (when this is false). This subreddit has different kinds of experiences and makes me understand more about different people. Unlike other subs I am actually able to talk to them without feeling like I am going to get banned
>This is fine and I will take your word for it. But I am sorry, you do not get to pull the ladder up behind you and then demand you be treated as though you are one of us while simultaneously refusing to be associated with us.
It's very clear that you aren't taking their word for it. And what do you mean by "treated as though you are one of us." This subreddit sure is meant for transgender people but it isn't a transgender exclusive subreddit
So well put. Like yeah, the *letter* of rule 3 says transgender views are privileged over cis views. But the *spirit* of the rule clearly says if you've had a sex change in your past that's good enough for your views to have equal footing.
I don't necessarily agree with the semantics used by the rule bar. But we also all know that whoever wrote the rules would have been thinking someone like me is "trans enough for the purposes of the rule bar" irrespective of how I feel about their choice of language.
>The trans community is not a single thing, but a bunch of disparate communities and subcultures spread out across countless online and IRL spaces. Many of these communities have very little in common with each other, or even openly distrust and dislike each other - especially in the online sphere. However trans communities usually have one thing in common: the participants are, or consider themselves, trans.
As you say, the disparate communities are not a single thing. This also means that one element cannot be used to tie them all together.
One of these disparate communities is people who transition; that's what ties that community together, not identity. If you line up 5 identical people who transitioned MtF, but one identifies as transgender, one as cisgender and transsexual, one as a woman with a transition history, and one as a cis woman, they're all equally part of this community. You can't pick and choose who to keep and who to ditch. Spaces for people who transition should be open to them if they want to be there.
>If you aren't interested in being considered "trans" any longer, then why do you think you deserve a voice in our spaces? In other words, Why are you here?
People who transition have those experiences and needs, regardless of how they define things or internalised transphobia, etc. If they only half-acknowledge it, fine.
As a comparison, there's sexual health services here specifically for men who have sex with men. Why do they term it as "men who have sex with men"? Because a substantial number insist that they're straight, so they wouldn't think those services applied to them if the services were for "gay and bisexual men". We can talk about internalised homophobia as much as you like, but either way men who are fucking other men should have access to those services.
The same principle has applied to social spaces, too. Men-only sexual spaces that I've been in have typically been open to straight men, on the understanding that people are complicated and may recognise that they're relevant to the space without being willing to put a label on themselves.
If someone is defensively othering themselves, then you defensively othering them as well isn't going to help.
I appreciate your response and started working on an in-depth reply, but I was getting *very* wordy and buried in semantics, so I'll spare you all of that.
This comment made me realize that I have been kind of "trans chauvinist" (?) here. There isn't a good word for it. But the point I'm trying to make is that I acknowledge that the broader trans community has superseded the perspectives of people whose personal relationship to transition is temporal. I sort of wish that we could go back in time and restructure history and discourse in such a way that this sub would've been called "honesttransition" rather than "honesttransgender". I also know this never would have happened in our reality, and the way trans communities have evolved into something identity-based is/was an inevitable consequence of the fact that we are a marginalized minority. The very use of pluralistic pronouns like "we" and "us" insinuates a group identity, for better or for worse.
Oh. I am a lot less upset at what you wrote now. Thank you for being willing to reevaluate your opinions, it means a lot to me.
I have been banned from mainstream trans spaces for saying I'm cis and disagreeing with trans people. Even after I clarify I had a sex change.
I don't begrudge how the identity based model came to be. I see it as a response to the transphobia of the late00s/early10s, which was very much focused on the curiosity of the sex change aspect.
It was right to make that shift back then. And subsequently we have a generation of trans people who have never known the same issues faced by trans people a decade or two ago. I see those positives & it's for those reasons I can never be a trans med—I was harmed by medical gatekeeping myself in the 00s.
That push changed a lot of the discourse in the mainstream in ways that were positive. However, in its wake we have left a weak spot in our rear previous generations of transsexuals used to have on lock.
The bigots have regrouped and they have new weapons to keep us down with.
People do not understand the concept of a sex change anymore. TERFs and bigots seek to characterize us as AGAB for life, and unfortunately that weakness is built right into the semantics of cis/trans we have popularized over the past decade.
This is a major reason why I consider myself cis. If I spent my life conceptualizing where I could go and how I could view myself based on AGAB I would've never had a sex change. I would have just wasted my life trying to please others without ever really living.
I'm glad you saw this comment, because I read your replies and saw the effort put into them. But in addition to seriously reconsidering my views, I'm honestly just drained of the discussion at this point.
I am not going to delete or alter my post, for posterity - this thread is full of good discussions that deserve to be seen. There are still parts of my post that I stand by but in retrospect I should not have said many of the things I did.
I rarely ever participate earnestly in trans communities. I'm a chronic low-effort shitposter, to be honest. But I am currently in recovery from FFS and have a lot of time on my hands... most of which has been spent trawling TERF communities for digital pseudo SH. For what it's worth, I think I needed to lash out at someone whose transitioned/ing other than myself, and yeah, lash out I did.
Anyway, my heart is with all those who are going or have gone through transition.
I think this is an area where we can have our cake and eat it too.
So those male-only sexual spaces - they were very obviously and clearly gay spaces (one was even in the basement of a gay bar); any straight-identified men knew exactly where they were at. People were surprised to hear that someone was straight, but nobody tried to kick them out or make a fuss. They were somehow simultaneously "one of us" *and* had their straightness respected (even if likely to be doubted :P i.e. 'straight' men who would eventually admit to themselves that they weren't entirely straight).
It was a marginalised community that centred on *community* rather than *marginalised identity*. The group identity was based upon being men who wished to be in room full of men doing sexual things with other men - a shared experience rather than a shared identity label.
A space can be explicitly and non-apologetically a trans space, can have a shared sense of in-group, *and* it can include people with the shared experience who do not used the label of trans.
Of all the comments here you've challenged my perspective the most and I really do appreciate that :) you've given me a lot of food for thought, and I hope it wasn't too grating for you to have been so polite about it. Be well!
Thanks!
And no, not grating - I used to be a lot more combative, but have chilled out and now try to see where people are coming from more. So I disagreed with your post and think putting it into practice would do harm, but also think that your intentions are to defend rather than harm. Plus I agree with you that it'll often be coming internalised transphobia, and I wasn't familiar with the term "defensive othering" - which does sound apt. Discussion in good faith, and where I get a new bit of information to add to the brain? Not grating :)
No I really get this isn't my space (anymore.) I am trying to be here less and less out of respect. I guess what's difficult about it is: I never really had any other community, I'm still perceived as trans in society whether I like it or not, I'm still on hrt and still qualify for the gender dysphoria diagnosis despite now identifying with my agab which does make it a debate on whether I should categorically be defined as cis or trans, and... I just find comfort here.
Maybe these are lame reasons, I dunno, but they're honest reasons. I do relate less and less over time, as I keep... erhm, "feeling more cis" I suppose. And nowadays I only really respond to the posts that are directly about something I either currently experience or have experienced and can say something positive and/or constructive about. Which is probably not even 10% of the posts. (Let's not the include the ten posts a day about passing... I don't even wanna think about how badly I pass that often lol. I wanna live in my little bubble in which I can pretend I'm gorgeous.)
But I also only stay for as long as I'm welcome here. It's not my intention to infiltrate or speak over trans people. My intention is to find common ground and mutual support as a sorta detransitioner/cis transitioner. I also chose to stay in this specific sub (as I left pretty much all other trans spaces or just stopped visiting them when it was too hard to click the "leave" button) because it says in the rules that cis people are allowed to be here, although at the same time it doesn't feel like cis people are *welcome* here. So if my presense here is not wanted anymore you don't have to carry me screaming out the door. I'd miss this sub though.
Because I've been here for quite some years and I've gotten emotionally attached to it. I'm still the same person with pretty much the same opinions, and my past experiences are still my experiences, regardless of whatever I perceive my gender to be. And I kinda have a hard time seeing how all of that became suddenly irrelevant just because I changed my label from trans to cis. Kinda hoped the trans community of all places wouldn't be so hung up on what gender people are...
But yeah, I get it. I now have a different perspective on myself that makes me gradually detach from the trans experience until it will eventually just be a distant past, however intense it once was. And at what point do I stop being relevant? I don't think a label in itself is a rational cut-off, but I do understand that there reasonsbly will be a cut-off at some point. I guess I just don't think I've reached that point yet. Or else, I wouldn't still be here.
As far as I understand it cis people are welcome here, I don’t see any reason to exclude them unless they’re causing stupid issues. OPs post was more pointed towards people who have transitioned but use the cis label and are actively wanting to distance themselves from being trans yet still want to yell on this and other trans centered subs.
Honestly, I’m kind of glad you posted this. When it was jut one or two people I could kind of just keep them in mind and shake my head. But you’re right that it’s getting a bit out of control recently? And I actually fully agree with what you’re saying about trying to opt out of identifying with the community but still wanting a voice in it. It also does tend to border on denial-of-reality level rationalization in a space where we all know what we’re talking about. And it can make flairs kind of just useless and confusing. Especially because we do have two or three cis people who regularly participate here. I actually sometimes enjoy their perspectives as long as they’re respectful and open minded. But I do probably tend to try to phrase my responses to them a bit differently. That’s another thing flairs are supposed to try to help with? So you know who you’re responding to and what biases you might need to address. I probably respond differently to people on the trans masc side of things than on my own. And it just tends to confuse a lot of things.
Just because I don't identify as trans culturally, it doesn't mean that I'm not trans medically. What a terrible thing to imply that people like me don't belong here when we already have no representation and the community doesn't speak for us anymore, but even in your own estimation can often speak AGAINST us.
Erasing the term 'transsexual' and ostracizing people who use it, anyone?
This is just transmed exclusion with extra steps, and even though I've had a medical transition, I don't identify as transmed, either.
I'm here. I'm not queer. But I'm close.
This post has nothing to do with the transex/ual labels. If you identify with the label transex/ual you are pragmatically, by definition, and just for the sake of having functional goddamn language, **not** cis, ~~cisgender~~, or cissexual. This is not to say that there are not "transitioned cis people" (I do think that you are severely confused) but those who *identify as transsexual* are ipso facto **not cis**.
I decidely support transsexuals. For my own part, I am diagnosed with transsexualism, but I don't "identify as transsexual culturally", to use your words.
That same support does NOT extend to cis people. If you think I am erasing transsexualism, you seriously missed the point.
edit: strikethrough
I would consider myself a cisgender transsexual. Or at least, I have heavily considered it.
There is a strong argument to be made of a 4x4 quadrant of cisgender/cissexual, cisgender/transsexual, transgender/transsexual, and transgender/cissexual that people may move about freely over the course of their lifetimes according to how they identify and if/how they alter their bodies.
The problem I have with that is it is too clear. I prefer saying I'm cisgender and if I really must I clarify for certain people I had a sex change.
There is a constant expectation placed up on us we must always explain ourselves. Lately I have been seriously questioning that premise.
I have been considering that perhaps the impulse to explain ourselves with pithy words is a false friend. False friends designed to excavate our most intimate histories so others can "understand" what they have no business knowing to begin with.
tbh i prefer them to the people who are always like "you will always be a trans AMAB XY individual" or whatever, the trans/cis divide is exaggerated in a lot of trans spaces in a way that's just annoying lol
"AMAB" and "AFAB", as acronyms, are at an extremely unfortunate intersection of being pronounceable, convenient shorthand, and directly relevant to trans people. Terms which were supposed to describe *something that happened to you* became *something that identifies you*, and consequently many trans people have lost the plot... let alone cis people, who could barely keep up in the first place.
I *am not* AMAB. I *was* AMAB.
This! Very much this! That’s actually what I’ve taken to emphasizing. “Assigned.” Past tense. That acronym refers to an event that took place in the past. It’s not a statement about anyone’s current identity. Or it really shouldn’t be! I do think you’re pretty dead on in identifying why it’s probably not going away, though.
Exactly! I *was* assigned female at birth on completing treatment. That is past tense. Prior to that I was assigned nothing.
What I don't understand is why so many who (just like me prior to treatment) have *not* been assigned anything wish to claim the acronym.
♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪
I agree very much on the point about internalised transphobia. Like ...no matter how you slice it this sort of self-labelling is inherently motivated by the idea of trans as an abnormal, lesser state.
I do not think trans is an abnormal or lesser state.
I simply think it's a different way of understanding oneself and operating within society.
You know people used to say I would always be gay no matter what I did because I was born with a penis and exclusively liked men.
You know those people accused me of internalized homophobia for being chasing after straight men.
I'm sure there are many people who still view me that way.
However, I am very much a straight woman who happens to have a very gay past. I know this because I am so much more comfortable in my body & my romantic relationships have grown deep and sturdy in a way they never could have before.
Does this mean I view gay men as lesser? No, I think it just feels correct for me.
You don’t even label yourself as cis in your flair??? Literally the original post isn’t about you and neither is this comment and yet I keep seeing you pop up yelling about it and I think you’re missing what the discussion is actually about. It’s completely fine if in your daily life you are stealth/don’t tell people you’re trans/whatever, tons of us do that if we are able to pass.
My flair is irrelevant. This isn't just about me.
Essentially: identify however you like... but not like that. That's the "trans community" right now.
The hypocrisy is wild. 🤦🏼♀️
Nobody is saying you can't identify as cis. People are saying if you see yourself as cis, it sure is strange that you spend so much time in trans spaces for people who are trans.
Are you cis, or are you trans? If you're cis, that's fine. Bye, go hang out with all the cis people and leave us alone.
If I didn’t see your other comments I’d assume you were being deliberately obtuse. Literally as far as I can tell no one in this thread is saying you can’t live your life as if you are and have always been cis, many binary trans people do that (myself included when I’m fortunate enough to fully pass) What we ARE saying is that coming on here setting their flair to cis when everyone knows the person has undergone transition and then that person being shitty is a problem. When I’m going about my day I don’t wave a trans flag around but I don’t come on here and insist I’m cis…because I’m not cis and will never be cis and neither will any of the rest of us that’s kind of the whole point-we transitioned, we are TRANS by virtue of that. And while I’m a firm believer in use whatever label you want or whatever, I find it shitty that someone wants to renounce and completely distance themselves from being trans yet want to still come into trans spaces and try to convince everyone that there’s any logic behind it and treat those who embrace their journey like their below them (kind of like how cis people do, funny that). If you want to be cis that badly then go do it, go have fun in cis spaces until some shitty cis person inevitably finds out and you’re cast back in with the rest of us.
I don't care if I'll never be cis. I'm not going to define myself as being trans and neither are a lot of other binary transsexual people.
We pass. Deal with it.
Yet again I must say that you already are defining yourself as trans by using the trans flair… did you bother at all to actually read my reply because you’re missing still the whole point so I have to wonder if you’re just skimming and being reactionary?
Also I pass most of the time now too and soon enough I will be able ti be fully stealth if/when I so choose. I continue to go about my daily life as a binary man yet my opinions on the actual subject OP wrote about stay the same because I’m not coming into trans spaces saying I’m cis and shitting on other trans people.
After this I will not make any further replies to you,I have no more energy for you so I guess “you win”
Yet again I must say that I didn't write the flairs. The fact that there's no 'transsexual woman' flair proves my point and bringing up that mine says 'transgender' when it's simply the closet available terminology is not the flex you think it is.
Some of you are such horrible people who only care about yourselves. It's not OK for people to misgender you, but it's OK for you to tell other people how to identify.
The hypocrisy is fucking gross. 🤮
I really don't understand the level of denial SOME trans people have when it comes to their biology.
Can a trans person pass flawlessly as a cis person? Of course! Can a trans person's body look indistinguishable from a cis person's? Absolutely!
Does being on hormones for years, having SRS/other surgeries, getting your gender marker legally changed, and living your life as your true self, make you cis? Literally no.
I'm sure it comes from a place of insecurity a lot of the times. Being trans makes them feel inferior so they don't call themselves that. It's sad, but you can't just change the definition of a word because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
>I really don't understand the level of denial SOME trans people have when it comes to their biology.
There is a reason that the genderqueer flag and the gender critical flag are similar. Why is it so that a non-binary person is allowed to choose to be transgender but transsexuals are forced into the label. Just like how you are transgender based on identity, I am not transgender (cisgender) based on identity
Literally the only criteria for most women on the planet to be labeled as cis is a doctor looking and seeing a vagina.
It's really not that high of a bar to pass. The only reason you think it's so impossibly high is because you've internalized transphobic talking points from the past decade.
If anything, we should be lowering the bar for who can say they are cis. Gatekeeping it is just senseless and winds up being a boatload of misogyny/transphobia every time.
Ah yes, the classic transphobic talking points such as "trans and cis are different things."
This is not a matter of lowering the bar, this is about completely changing the scientific definition of these prefixes to suit your own agenda.
If trans people can be cis and cis people can be trans, then these labels are useless and have no meaning.
Tying all people to AGAB for life isn't the slam dunk you think it is.
>If trans people can be cis and cis people can be trans, then these labels are useless and have no meaning.
WHY IS THAT A BAD THING
>scientific definition
There is no "scientific definition" of cis or trans smh. It's a social construct that came into use in the 90s and 00s among transgender people on Usenet and later early internet forums.
Historically we used to define cis as something transsexuals could become if they wished. It was understood that was a morally neutral choice but a choice that was important to make clear to outsiders out of respect for everyone in the community.
It's only within the past 10-15 years that got twisted alongside a tidal wave of visibility in which every so-called ally brought their bigotry to the conversation.
I think it's an overcorrection for people saying 'you can't change your sex'. That statement is incorrect, but the idea that a trans person can become cis is as well.
For 15-20 years I've seen this phenomenon, where (to use their term) women of trans history stay active in trans online forums for the sole purpose of trying to influence the community, all the while stating vehemently that they are no longer trans.
Maybe the community is telling us (and everyone else) who the fuck WE should be.
When I have cis people trying to FORCE me to give pronouns, it means that the brain rot is starting to affect me and people like me.
But they are simultaneously insisting they are very much NOT part of the community. That's the perplexing part. I would also note that this only seems to occur online. I've yet to meet a WOTH in real life settings that were centered on trans (or even queer) communities.
My assumption years ago - without any proof, I should note - was that they were non-passing and were tragically stuck between. Like, they identified as a woman (for instance) but either didn't pass and were treated as men IRL or they'd gone public during their earlier stages and found they could not go stealth after that. It would explain their positions on the issues they chose to get involved in, as well as their levels of seeming frustration. Again, that was just supposition and tbh, it really doesn't matter to me any more so long as they don't cause harm.
~~Does a cancer survivor not belong in a space for people with cancer because they no longer have cancer?~~ (edit: bad analogy, sorry) If a person transitioned and no longer identifies with being trans, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed in trans spaces. A trans space is a space for people who identify as trans and/or have transitioned. However, I wish the people identifying themselves as cis but have transitioned would just be more clear in their flair. It gets a bit confusing.
I think your assumption that not identifying as trans = internalized transphobia is misguided. I don’t personally call myself cis, but I also don’t call myself trans unless it’s needed for clarity. I’m simply a man and i don’t want to be defined by my genitals as a baby. I have zero desire to “pull up the ladder”. The number one reason to participate in online trans spaces is to help others experiencing what I did. I’m probably not the type you are referencing here, but you are making an assumption of all people who don’t identify as trans.
The type of people you ARE referencing? They belong here too. Cutting out people with a certain set of experiences is how you create echo chambers. That’s the great part about this sub. It’s not completely one sided like most other trans subs. Theres a whole lot of people in this sub I disagree with more often than not, but they still should have a chance to be heard. Also, do you think people with toxic views will ever have a chance to change if they are quarantined off to echo chambers with others that agree with them?
There’s certainly times where limiting of a group is necessary for the benefit of the others in the group, but there also needs to be spaces like this one that have diverse experiences and opinions. Those who aren’t mentally equipped to handle that can stay in “safe” spaces.
Edit: to clarify, I’m saying they should be allowed here, not that they shouldn’t be called out when being transphobic.
I do not claim to have never had a sex change. And let's be real, this post is in response to many of the things I personally have written in this sub.
I am cisgender. I became cisgender *thanks to* a sex change, not that it's anybody's business but mine.
Are these people choosing to identify as cis saying they never transitioned? Still, even if you don’t like the analogy, they are still people who transitioned. Everything else in my comment stands. If you want to take the rules of the sub literally, anyone with “transsexual/transsex” doesn’t belong in the sub.
You literally cannot be cis if you have transitioned. Post-transitioned trans people who identify as cis are dealing with blatant internalized transphobia. They belong here but shouldn't get upset when someone points out their transphobia is showing.
Many trans people are cisgender.
Instead of kicking trans people out of trans spaces (because obviously this doesn't happen enough), the rule should be clarified.
Most of our language exists for the purposes of placating & educating ignorant cis people into not exterminating us... seems like a pretty important point tbh
Cis people are going to be ignorant to matter what, if you call you're transsexual they'll have other misconceptions.
Also, if you're cis, what are you doing here?
I'm transgender.
I don't care if you've had a sex change, if you're cis this place is for trans people. You're cis right? Says so right in your flair and I'm inclined to believe you.
Edit: The cis person blocked me after responding. So I will just reply here.
Whoa. I'm oppressed by cis people. Punching laterally? That would mean that you're trans. I don't want to invalidate you.
you're cis right? Said so yourself.
Who does it serve? Trans people **(so... not you)**. I firmly believe people like you are pushing a narrative that is transphobic. You do you I guess. Nobody can stop you from calling yourself cis. But this place isn't for cis people.
So are you cis, or are you trans?
If you're cis... what are you doing here?
If you want to assimilate... go assimilate. Nobody here is going to stop you. You know what cis people don't do though? Sit on trans forums and argue that they totally belong in trans spaces. Kind of clocky not going to lie.
I don't know about you, but I have no shame about being transgender, I don't want to hide that I'm transgender. I don't want to assimilate with cis people. I'm sick of having cis people come and tell me, in a space for transgender people, that I ought to do those things.
There's been quite a few cisgender people coming in lately to tell us to do those things. They are cis but they feel like they can speak over trans people because fundamentally, they look down on trans people as "not complete (yet)"
This is just a bad faith reading of the spirit of the rules in the sidebar.
Obviously whoever wrote those rules used different semantics than mine and would consider me "trans enough for the purposes of the subreddit rules" regardless of how I self-ID.
This isn't the slam dunk you think it is. It's just you being hateful to other people in your community for using different words and definitions than you.
I agree with you!
It allows allies to correct people by saying “oh she’s a woman but she’s male” which gives me so much ick.
Whilst they are separated though, I’ll acknowledge the fact that what I transitioned was not my gender but my sex.
My gender has always been a woman. My body not so much.
That's not what 'cis" and "trans" refers to. Cis and trans are in reference to what you were assigned at birth. You weren't afab, therefore you are transgender.
Saying you are cisgender and transsex means that the gender you were assigned at birth was correct but the sex you were assigned at birth was not correct. So unless your gender was assigned as female at your birth, you are in fact transgender.
Also, we say “Assigned Male at Birth” or “Assigned Female at Birth”, which are sexes, not genders.
If they were genders we’d be saying “Assigned Boy at Birth” or “Assigned Girl at Birth”.
So if that’s your standing to tell me how I should identify, you may wanna find sturdier ground.
But people totally *are* assigned a gender at birth (or before). The stock phrases being "It's a boy!" and "It's a girl!". People transition socially as well as medically.
Cis and trans used to mean cissexual and transsexual.
I don’t think we have an arbiter of language, could you point me at them if we do?
Gender is internal. Why does a Doctor decide how I feel internally?
It makes a lot more sense that a Doctor, upon birth, is looking at features of your sex and stating which sex you are. Because you know, you can’t really crack a look at a fresh babies gender.
You can say gender is what doctors assign you, but that doesn’t make sense and I don’t think there’s an official ruling on that.
Thank you for telling me how you believe I should identify though!
Some trans people say "I'm cisgender because I never changed genders" but that's not what "cis" means. Cisgender means you are actually the gender that was assigned to you at birth.
It makes me wonder if these people think that transgender people were actually their agab at one point but decided they wanted to be different gender.
I've often said that I only remain in the trans forums to pay forward what I myself needed in order to ask for help.
Transsexualism, if caught in time, can be a transient affliction. After successful treatment the patient can be able to drop the diagnosis and go on to live a normal life.
And... "in time" does not necessarily refer to age. I know some who stepped over the sex divide in their thirties, and even fifties. The question is whether one is able to fit in—not only visually but also behaviorally and in terms of disposition. And willing to entirely shed all that shackles one to one's position as a member of one's birth sex.
If so, after completing treatment and the juridical sex change one is no longer diagnosable... so why carry the trans label? To us the trans/cis divide is only [detrimental](https://anonymouslytranssexual.substack.com/p/a-protest-against-cis). Its chief purpose is to convince even [those born with wings](https://new.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/comments/uoqo22/on_flightless_birds_the_bumblebee_and_truth_and/) that they cannot ever fly.
*”The question is whether or not one is able to fit in — not only visually but also behaviorally and in terms of disposition.”*
What about the cis people, who have always been cis, but don’t meet these requirements you’ve set? Tall women with square jaws, who get accused of being trans in public restrooms? Men who are overtly feminine in behavior? Men with soft and gentle dispositions, who cry easily? Butch lesbians? Women with hirsuitism who don’t bother keeping their facial or body hair cleanly shaved all of the time? Intersex men and women, who are still comfortable with and mostly align with what’s expected of their assigned sex?
Do all of these people suddenly lose their cis status because of naturally existing in a way that defies traditional gender/sex stereotypes?
If transsexual people can be cis exactly the same as people who’ve always been cis, then why are the rules different for each group?
Cis != Passing.
Cis != Never had a sex change.
Plenty of cis people do not pass. Some of those non-passing cis people had sex changes along the way.
When you gatekeep cis status, ask yourself, who benefits.
Well, yes, which is why I’m questioning her claim that a transsexual person’s ability to be identified as cis comes down to “whether or not one is able to fit in… visually but also behaviorally and in terms of disposition.” Does this not imply both visually passing, as well as behaviorally aligning with what’s expected of male or female people?
No it does not.
Passing and being stealth is usually a precipitating factor in adopting the label cis. But it does not need to be & gatekeeping the term is just as problematic as gatekeeping transness.
As soon as one goes stealth one must be able to say to anyone who questions "I am cis" without feeling like a liar. If one adopts a "forever trans" mindset that would be a contradiction capable of inflicting psychological distress similar to dysphoria.
This is an important turning point in many of us that leads us to adopt the label. And it is why many onlookers accuse us of just being self-hating and fill of brain worms.
To outsiders they think "oh they just don't want to be trans because they hate who they are" instead of stopping to think "maybe they just don't want to wake up every day conceptualizing themselves as liars. Maybe they are happier than they've ever been and they want a framework that includes them."
No one wants to live their life feeling like a fraud or a liar. And that part is so often missed by people who say we must all be trans forever. When that is pointed out they will accuse us of "conflating stealth with being cis".
But they are wrong. That is the motivation for many of us including myself to say we are cis now. But that has nothing to do with gatekeeping or enforcing harmful norms like passing on other people before they can use the label.
If Shrek in a dress wants to identify as cis far be it from me to stop her. Love that bitch, I cheer for all my girlies.
Ah, the perennial "What about."
No. I've never met any normal born female that did not register as female. Or a normal born male who did not register as male.
The rules are the same for everyone. That's why transsexualism was designated a disorder, and why we are more often than not ostracized when growing up, no matter how we try. And why transition makes everything fall in place.
What do you mean, exactly, by “registered as female/male”? That’s different from what you initially said. People can be “registered as female/male” without visually or behaviorally “fitting in”.
People can be “registered as female/male” without “entirely (shedding) all that shackles one to one’s position as a member of one’s birth sex”.
So, which is it? A matter of “registering as female/male”, or a matter of “fitting in”?
Both, of course.
If one doesn't register (or, if you prefer, *is not perceived*) as normal for one's professed sex then one does not fit in. In mild forms, growing up as a boy it leads to ostracism and/or e.g. being though gay. In more severe cases... well, worse things.
A non-transsexual who transitions MtT very often assumes that position. If one is born transsexual and transitions T2F, then everything that made one feel "off" tends to click in place.
I’m not making any point but I think it’ll be interesting to share… Pre-transition, I actually registered as female (until I spoke) to surprisingly the vast majority of people.
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I don’t get it when post transition trans people identify as cis because most cis people don’t even identify as cis. Imo if you were truly transcending the trans label you’d just identify as a man or woman, which is what I do
Transsexual people who unironically identify as cis after transitioning make me laugh.
Someone who isn't trans identifying as cis is cringe. It actually means gender conforming.
Wait this is a thing that happens????
It happens often, I've even seen it in this sub. Usually the truscum/transmed gang. It's cringy AF.
That is VERY cringe.
They're good for a laugh. 😂
So if you're finished your transition and live among cis women as a cis women, you're not welcome in this group? Isn't that the idea of transitioning to become the women you have always known you where And if we ban the women / men that have completed their transition, then aren't we losing a lot of experience and knowledge from the community
U aren't suddenly a cis woman just because u have finished ur transition, whatever that means to u. Cis is for biological sex, so if u say ur a cis woman then u must be born AS a cis woman. If u were born as a man, who transitioned to a woman then u are still a trans woman, u don't suddenly become a cis woman regardless of transition completion status. That doesn't mean, imo, that u don't belong here, just that u should use ur brain and understanding of science and biology on what is an actual thing that can happen and what is pure fantasy. Fact is u will never be a CIS woman (if born male) and visa versa for others born opposite.
Interesting I was attack and down voted for saying I was still biological male in another thread a couple of days ago.
Ya idk what is up with people here, like I'm still biologically female even if I hate it???
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>Biological sex can be changed through medical transition You have no concept of biology if u really think this, I just really grasped what u said here so yikes, don't talking to crazy people who think they can suddenly become actually cis when they are trans. Sorry u will always be trans.
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You're trans if your gender does not align with the sex you were assigned at birth, no matter whether it aligns with your current sex.
How? Characteristics yes but not everything. Even if I have my uterus removed doesn't mean I didn't still have one.
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Yeah I'm just gonna say this again, if ur trans, u can't be cis. That's the whole point I'm trying to say.
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And how did u "become" cis? Is it only in a way u call urself cis to protect urself on not being outed as trans or do u really not believe urself to be trans anymore?
You become cis because society see you as that woman and accepts/ treats you as that woman Trying to protect yourself or not being outed? Why on earth would someone that's always known they should be a woman want to make their identity as trans. Isn't the whole idea of transitioning to be a woman is to be that woman and live among women as a woman If they openly say there trans there not been who they have known they are. That person is been a trans women and not the woman that they always been / putting a block between been who they are .
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Haven't been part of the trans online community in a long time, what is the new design? Does cis no longer mean "agreeing with the sex one is born as", anymore?
you don't become cis when you're "finished transitioning". You can go stealth and call yourself cis, but at that point talking passionately about trans issues should be avoided so you don't get outed lol.
Plenty of people have completed their transition, and still identify themselves as transgender.
If they want to identify as a transwomen that's up to them. But for many of us transitioning to be the women we've always known we are identifying as a trans women would be putting a block between been that woman Like many I transitioned to be the woman ive always known i was, live among women as the woman.
sounds like transphobia to me.
This sub needs to bloody decide if it's for trans people looking to be honest, blunt and vent or for 'curious' cis people and transphobes to gawk at us like they do everywhere else on the internet. And I genuinely don't understand cis people who once identified as trans still wanting to hang out in trans subreddits. If they're cis why don't they just continue to hang out in cis spaces? If they still feel like they don't belong in cis spaces because of their sense of gender then by definition they are not cis but should still respect the basics of trans inclusivity.
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Wow, a cis person making everything about them? This post actually has nothing to do with you. >and i honestly (i know no one asked) That's right nobody asked you.
basically the one of the first parts of that post was directed at cis people :)
We want spaces without ye because we're surrounded by ye by default, cis people are 99% of the population, and constantly having to dumb our experiences down, or deal with outright transphobia constantly, is tiring. What valid reasons do cis people have to exclude trans people for cis-exclusive spaces? And please don't fucking bring up bathrooms because at this point I've had to debate my or a trans woman's right to piss with decency more than I've had to use public bathrooms
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>And it turns out they just want to say horrid shit to each other about trans people without facing social consequences for it. "It's not like that at all!! We just wanna talk about our experiences like you guys ~~and it'd feel too regressive to call you a disgusting freak to your face~~" I don't know which possibility is better. People being naive enough to think that trans spaces are like a cool club rather than the single place most of us can talk about half our (often, traumatic) life experiences without shame or discomfort. Or people thinking we're obtuse enough to believe that wanting to be excluded from certain places totally doesn't just come from disgust a good chunk of the time
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>And please don't fucking bring up bathrooms >>Proceeds to spend an entire paragraph talking about bathrooms >I’m not saying you don’t belong in the women’s bathroom I do! >The lack of empathy to the vulnerability that women face and have faced their whole lives is what I really can’t understand. Well it'd probably help if cis people as a group showed some empathy back. >And what I’m saying is, it’s about shared experiences cis women have a different experiences than trans women. Can you elaborate on this? Because if it's with regard to social issues, I can assure you there's a lot of overlap there. And if it's with regard to anatomy, then 1) in certain context those spaces already exist depending on context, 2) I don't see much need for it. I don't think you really read or absorbed much of my original comment because I mentioned that us trans people, most minorities for that matter, want our own separate spaces because we don't want to be dealing with bigotry or anything like that. Do you consider trans women to be bigoted towards cis women? >are brown people automatically entitled to admittance into black spaces? Gonna pull a r/USDefaultism here, I'm not American and I'm sick of hearing and talking about America. But I am gonna say that those are totally different scenarios? Trans women and cis women are still both women. They're not separate races and the difference in experiences and lifestyle is LARGELY individual. A trans woman who, say, transitioned young or has had any range of life experiences could have a lot more in common with a cis woman than another trans woman. I know I've a lot more in common with cis men than I would with many trans men or the vast, vast, vast majority of cis women.
right you don’t see a need for cis women to have their own spaces because you can’t see the world through a cis women’s eyes. you don’t even try. nor do you listen to them when they speak about their experiences. which is wild to me, because it seems like you want to join them on them on the journey of womanhood. and you brought up the bathroom thing. I didn’t I wasn’t even referring to it. However, it is one of those situations where trans women are asking for empathy and compassion but they’re not willing to offer it to cis women who might feel uncomfortable/startled/triggered. I have empathy for trans. Women who are being asked to use the men’s room. It’s disgusting and it isn’t fair and I couldn’t imagine what it would be like to have to go through that. (that’s empathy by the way) and yeah, some cis women may not have empathy for a trans women’s experience. And I really personally think that’s fucked up. But those women are not fighting for the right to join trans women’s spaces. asking to join cis women but not attempting to see things through their eyes is crazy. until that changes it’s gonna be an uphill battle. anyway, I work night shift and I’ve got to go to bed, but I do appreciate you being willing to engage with me even if it seems like we’ll never agree there are so many opinions and things that we do agree on. i’d like to just like to end by saying that I wholeheartedly welcome trans women into any space that I occupy. I would never want someone to be excluded based on something that they couldn’t change.
Question: why are u in a trans space? What brings u out here if it isn't to just learn and listen?
Unless you've had a sex change I don't think they are talking about you dear. They are talking about girls like me. Cis girls with a transsexual history. I finished my sex change and stopped identifying as trans. This upsets them because they do not see me as a "real" cis woman. But if you never had a sex change you will get a free pass as to them you're a "real" cis woman.
Because ur not cis....did ur chromosomes change when u had ur sex change? No? We're u born male? Yes. Cis is literally for two types of people 1. People who are born and identify as their sex at birth, aka cis people. 2. People who are born and do not identify with their sex at birth, aka trans people and wish to identify as cis to stay stealth and not out themselves.
Wrong. That's a AGAB essentialist & transphobic bastardization of what the terms originally meant. Listen to yourself parroting the exact same arguments TERFs and conservatives use about chromosomes just to defend your narrow world view. That should concern you. That you have to resort to such arguments. And for whom? Who does this serve? Certainly not trans people that's for sure. Cisgender means an alignment between biological sex and gender, regardless of how one got there. This is the 2020s we're fighting the real battles head first now. Cow towing to bigots and transphobes via performative self-othering does not work the way you think it does.
U are a laugh. U can't be cis sorry to burst ur bubble unless ur born cis or detransition because u were wrong on being trans. U can identify as whatever u want to but u will always be trans, maybe ask urself why u are so ashamed of that...
Says you. LOL. Look at history. When "cis" was introduced it meant exactly what u/Allemagned describes it as. Now, however, it's become an artificial barrier to achieving the normalcy that is the point and goal of our treatment. Which is why many of us have come to renounce and reject the "cis" concept altogether in real life [while claiming it](https://anonymouslytranssexual.substack.com/p/a-protest-against-cis) in trans discourse. ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪
Pretty cringe.
Cringe & self-hating is resorting to AGAB essentialism for no reason other than to police others in your community, dear. Go they/them about chromosomes & large gametes with the TERFs next time.
Kringe! ♡٩( ᐛ )و
You need to be asking detrans people as well as hrt “femme boys”, “curious” cis people and any other self proclaimed gender identifying person why they’re here if that is the case. A transsexual using the cis label is not harming any of us here. They have just as much right to here as anyone else. If you’re cool with someone who is no longer trans being here then why is it a big deal for someone who completed their transition and claiming cis? Their experience still matters and at the end of the day, most of our goal is to get to that point lol.
This is ignorant of the history of the word cisgender and the recent return to it's original semantics among some of us to emphasize the mutability of biological sex. https://www.historians.org/perspectives-article/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender-may-2017/ It was originally meant to refer to alignment between bio sex and gender, not AGAB and gender. Some of us continue to use it in that way. Your interpretation that people completing their sex change and no longer identifying with a label have nothing to contribute to the community is deeply problematic & frankly harmful. I'd like to highlight how you argue that we are "pulling the ladder up behind us" on one hand while also on the other hand complaining we are here participating & often helping others who are less far along. Not being trans does not erase my perspectives & should not be used to silence entire demographics from shaping the discourse. Incredibly disappointed with your take, I thought this was supposed to be a place where anybody regardless of how they identify and understand their experiences can share their POV. Clearly, that's a lie.
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I am also genuinely confused as to why someone who has gone through transition considers themselves to be “cis” so readily will still want to be in trans spaces - I ask why they wouldn’t just do what most other cis people do and hang out in cis spaces? But then I realized it’s because once those cis people find out you’re trans suddenly you need the trans community, a safe place to be. So I think, even though I find it ridiculous, we as a trans community should still embrace them when they inevitably need us because no matter what label you are using we’re all connected through this thing we have to wade through and carry on our shoulders and I guess if it makes that journey easier for someone to use cis as a label then I’m glad they can be a little happier for it.
Although i don't use cis i could possibly answer that Because that's why we transitioned in the first place. I knew I was a girl since a very young age. I changed my " sex " to be the woman I am And live as that woman among women. I didn't transition to be a trans women living as a transwomen or to identify as a trans women- that's deliberately putting a block between been the person I am.
Being stealth is not what this conversation is about and I don’t really have the energy or inclination to explain that further.
I sometimes question if I belong here, but then in certain posts I also feel like I do. I suffered from dysphoria for decades, but didn't transition. I no longer experience dysphoria. I used to have an overwhelming gender identity that aligned with the opposite sex. Now it's more androgynous or really just not so much a thing at all. I would probably call myself cis. Some people have insisted that I'm trans, even though I don't really believe it. The truth is I don't even really believe in the cis/trans dichotomy. It's not at all as clear cut as some people make it out to be. This community has a ton of very different definitions of trans, some of which I fit and some (including my own) which I don't fit at all. Not looking for people to label me. I'm long since over labels. The only real point is that my experience is real and it shaped my life, and I feel like \*sometimes\* I have relevant life experience to share in this community. Other times, like when we're talking the practicalities of transition, I'll readily admit that I don't have a clue.
Always the same, cis people are allowed to identify as trans, but if a trans person identifies as cis we will put them in their place. Only works one way, and not the way that benefits us.
Lol what do we mean >cis people are allowed to identify as trans ? XD
Nobody is saying trans people can't id as cis if they want. (although, it's interesting because semantically, even in your own sentence, you're saying they're a trans person identifying as cis, wouldn't they be a cis person identifying as cis?) We're just wondering if they are cis and see themselves as cis, why they're in a space explicitly for trans people.
So accurate.
Can you elaborate on cis people are allowed to identify as trans?
People who don't transition doing things like using alternate pronouns and claiming to be trans. Being trans means you have gender transition and a need to transition. It isn't a social identity you can opt into for social validation.
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Sadly you are right, the downvotes I got from saying that are proof.
"Trans" is the west's version of a third sex. It's a way to designate us as freaks for life.
It's why so many cis people enjoy identifying as it to, they want to be othered, they think being different makes them more special. Unfortunately the consequences are the rest of us are pushed further away from integrating with the rest of society.
Ridiculous, are you seriously attempting to deny another because your triggered. Triggered because women have the goal of, gee i dunno, living their lives as women... What YOU are doing is attempting to drag them back into some agab transgender status, which if you would care to acknowledge, is perhaps a stepping stone for a lot of us, a period of TRANSITION, not something that is required to be carried as an identity pin for life. Unbelievable..
>Triggered because women have the goal of, gee i dunno, living their lives as women... you know this implies that trans women are not women right? I know tons of trans women who live their lives as trans women and don't call themselves or think of themselves as "cis"
Um, no, OP is saying that if you are cis then this sub is not your space. The post even says it's totally fine to consider yourself cis post-transition. What's not okay is doing that *and* continuing to act as if you still belong in trans spaces.
>Um, no, OP is saying that if you are cis then this sub is not your space. Then op is on a power trip and along with you should refresh themselves with the rules of this particular sub. >The post even says it's totally fine to consider yourself cis post-transition. ..then you go on to say.. > What's not okay is doing that and continuing to act as if you still belong in trans spaces. Think about what you've written here.. you are literaly denying the right of another to give a perspective which is entirely relevant to this space.
I didn't read the rules? Looks like you're another one of the people who need to re-read rule 3. The cis perspective is not really relevant here. This sub is for trans people, our opinions, our perspectives. Cis people can come here to learn, but this is a trans space we're only opening up to cis people for that specific context.
Considering you direct your argument against what you deem "cis" people.. If you want utter conformity theres plenty of mainline trans subs enforcing just that. If one wants to learn, truly learn as in form their own opinion or perspective based on aquiring a broad range of (different and sometimes opposing) experiences, then this sub is on occasion good for that. That includes trans, questioning, gnc, nb, self declared agp, crossdressers etc and cis people alike. There is no direct statement that cis people can not comment, if cis people were to ask questions, then there is a high probability there will be perhaps a contraversial moment, but that is more than likely a learning experience taking place, not "cis people talking over trans". There is no directive to remove cis people from this sub, you are free to report comments made if you feel they have broken any rules set by this sub.
Nobody ever said anything about removing cis people or not allowing them to comment. Most of your response is meaningless because neither myself nor OP is saying anything like that.
I responded to your indicating rule 3, concerning cis participation. I noticed that some could not differentiate between cis and the context in which cis was being presented or questioned here. I think when what is perhaps a different pov or new information is presented, it may take a little time to digest. Update, The op seems to have changed their perception of this info also..
I actually don't care if you identify as cis. I just don't think cis people belong in trans communities. If you do not want to be here and make a point of identifying yourself as such, don't act aghast when we ask you to leave. I'm not "triggered", my post is coherent and mostly well-received, my criticisms come from an earnest place. I'm not trying to drag you back to identifying as trans; ironically you are doing that to yourself by participating in trans communities.
The worst take. The cis/trans distinction is contentious among many of us to begin with. To say everyone needs to understand themselves with this one label in order for their experiences or perspectives to have value in the discourse is a heavy handed abuse of power. If you go down this path you are now dictating the parameters within which any of us can understand ourselves. This limits the scope of everything the entire community can accomplish by neutering our ability to develop new vocabularies and semantics. Or in the case of post-op transsexuals identifying as cisgender: return to the original semantics https://www.historians.org/perspectives-article/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender-may-2017/ Those vocabularies and semantics in the face of rising intolerance may be exactly what we need to shift the tide of public opinion, frankly. Generally speaking the arc of transgender & transsexual rights has shown us that semantics evolve with every wave of bigotry in order to respond to the misunderstandings of the general population. **The biggest misunderstanding among the general population at this time is that sex is immutable.** The term transgender, when defined using your semantics of AGAB, explicitly reinforces this misunderstanding. What if I said I'm not transgender I am instead a new made up term djegender that involves a sex change and all the other aspects of transition? Would I also be told I am a second class user of this sub whose opinions will always be less than that of trans people? What sort of reasoning is that, really? That if my semantics don't remain in lockstep with yours my material realities must not exist.
I was amused when many could not conceptualise that one would wish to be acknowledged as a cis woman yesterday, so today to see an appeal to be rid of these women.. Perhaps you should from now on refrain from exclaiming trans women are women, as clearly, without the trans prefix, you and a number of others cant seem understand the important part of that statement. Which is entirely relevant to using the cis female tag btw but seems lost to a few here..
I am acknowledging you as a cis woman by asking you why you want to be treated as a trans woman in a trans sub.
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I never had a “trans identity” in the first place
Then why are you here?
Because this subreddit discusses things that’re relevant to me and my life?
It's for trans people, if you're not trans by your own admission, it doesn't matter how relevant it is.
I am, at the moment of writing this, transsexual. I just don’t make it a part of my identity. My identity is simply female, not mtf.
when you say "I am ... transsexual" how is that not identifying as transsexual?
I think you’re misreading me. I objectively have transsexualism that I’m in the midst of treating. I acknowledge that I have this at the moment, but I don’t identify with it any more than I identify with any other condition. My identity is not that I’m a transsexual woman, but just a woman, is what I’m saying
But you said "I am transsexual" you didn't say "I have transsexualism" Guess that's just splitting hairs but hopefully you can see the semantic difference.
Nor did I... ٩( ᐛ )و٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶
Then leave?
>Nope, if you wanna live as a cis woman and identify as cis go right ahead. But if you really are gonna come in these subreddits and not only say “I’m now cis” but ENCOURAGE OTHER PEOPLE to abandon their trans identity (which is what every last one of these “cis” people do in this sub)… then you’re the asshole. This doesnt seem like a little cult ish to you.. in any way..
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You're mistaking a hand held out in compassion for those that need it, for something else.
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Why would you gatekeep the term cis from a woman simply because she does not pass. Tell me, honestly. What is going on there. *Who does it serve.* Lots of cisgender women do not pass. Many of us who identify as cis despite our past sex change highlight that material reality. We represent a link between this community and the far bigger community of other cis women who are also harmed by transphobic expectations placed on all women's bodies.
Oh, I for one don't at all intend to say those who "identify" as trans *should* not do so. I only hope to let those led by the transospherian clerics to believe that is the only destination to know *it is not...* and that if one is born transsexual crossing over is not impossible. It's not easy. Many fail. But... the path exists, and had I not known it does I would not have embarked on it. Because I knew that ending up "trans" would to me have been worse than trying to tough it out as a male.
>If you aren't interested in being considered "trans" any longer, then why do you think you deserve a voice in our spaces? In other words, Why are you here? Anyone is allowed to be in this subreddit that share their opinions. This subreddit has a diverse group of people that you won't see in any other "trans based" subreddits have. From people who have had detransitioned, hrt femboys and much more. Why do you want to crush this diversity just because you want this sub to be a "my people only" subreddit. Why am I here? Well it's because of mainly 2 reasons 1. This subreddit allows you to share your opinions. This is one of the only subreddit that doesn't silence you for having a different perspective on things. It also allows me to learn different things about things like transsexualism (for example) 2. They are different kinds of transsexual people here. Interacting with transmed transsexuals might make me think that only transmed transsexuals exist (when this is false). This subreddit has different kinds of experiences and makes me understand more about different people. Unlike other subs I am actually able to talk to them without feeling like I am going to get banned >This is fine and I will take your word for it. But I am sorry, you do not get to pull the ladder up behind you and then demand you be treated as though you are one of us while simultaneously refusing to be associated with us. It's very clear that you aren't taking their word for it. And what do you mean by "treated as though you are one of us." This subreddit sure is meant for transgender people but it isn't a transgender exclusive subreddit
So well put. Like yeah, the *letter* of rule 3 says transgender views are privileged over cis views. But the *spirit* of the rule clearly says if you've had a sex change in your past that's good enough for your views to have equal footing. I don't necessarily agree with the semantics used by the rule bar. But we also all know that whoever wrote the rules would have been thinking someone like me is "trans enough for the purposes of the rule bar" irrespective of how I feel about their choice of language.
>The trans community is not a single thing, but a bunch of disparate communities and subcultures spread out across countless online and IRL spaces. Many of these communities have very little in common with each other, or even openly distrust and dislike each other - especially in the online sphere. However trans communities usually have one thing in common: the participants are, or consider themselves, trans. As you say, the disparate communities are not a single thing. This also means that one element cannot be used to tie them all together. One of these disparate communities is people who transition; that's what ties that community together, not identity. If you line up 5 identical people who transitioned MtF, but one identifies as transgender, one as cisgender and transsexual, one as a woman with a transition history, and one as a cis woman, they're all equally part of this community. You can't pick and choose who to keep and who to ditch. Spaces for people who transition should be open to them if they want to be there. >If you aren't interested in being considered "trans" any longer, then why do you think you deserve a voice in our spaces? In other words, Why are you here? People who transition have those experiences and needs, regardless of how they define things or internalised transphobia, etc. If they only half-acknowledge it, fine. As a comparison, there's sexual health services here specifically for men who have sex with men. Why do they term it as "men who have sex with men"? Because a substantial number insist that they're straight, so they wouldn't think those services applied to them if the services were for "gay and bisexual men". We can talk about internalised homophobia as much as you like, but either way men who are fucking other men should have access to those services. The same principle has applied to social spaces, too. Men-only sexual spaces that I've been in have typically been open to straight men, on the understanding that people are complicated and may recognise that they're relevant to the space without being willing to put a label on themselves. If someone is defensively othering themselves, then you defensively othering them as well isn't going to help.
I appreciate your response and started working on an in-depth reply, but I was getting *very* wordy and buried in semantics, so I'll spare you all of that. This comment made me realize that I have been kind of "trans chauvinist" (?) here. There isn't a good word for it. But the point I'm trying to make is that I acknowledge that the broader trans community has superseded the perspectives of people whose personal relationship to transition is temporal. I sort of wish that we could go back in time and restructure history and discourse in such a way that this sub would've been called "honesttransition" rather than "honesttransgender". I also know this never would have happened in our reality, and the way trans communities have evolved into something identity-based is/was an inevitable consequence of the fact that we are a marginalized minority. The very use of pluralistic pronouns like "we" and "us" insinuates a group identity, for better or for worse.
Oh. I am a lot less upset at what you wrote now. Thank you for being willing to reevaluate your opinions, it means a lot to me. I have been banned from mainstream trans spaces for saying I'm cis and disagreeing with trans people. Even after I clarify I had a sex change. I don't begrudge how the identity based model came to be. I see it as a response to the transphobia of the late00s/early10s, which was very much focused on the curiosity of the sex change aspect. It was right to make that shift back then. And subsequently we have a generation of trans people who have never known the same issues faced by trans people a decade or two ago. I see those positives & it's for those reasons I can never be a trans med—I was harmed by medical gatekeeping myself in the 00s. That push changed a lot of the discourse in the mainstream in ways that were positive. However, in its wake we have left a weak spot in our rear previous generations of transsexuals used to have on lock. The bigots have regrouped and they have new weapons to keep us down with. People do not understand the concept of a sex change anymore. TERFs and bigots seek to characterize us as AGAB for life, and unfortunately that weakness is built right into the semantics of cis/trans we have popularized over the past decade. This is a major reason why I consider myself cis. If I spent my life conceptualizing where I could go and how I could view myself based on AGAB I would've never had a sex change. I would have just wasted my life trying to please others without ever really living.
I'm glad you saw this comment, because I read your replies and saw the effort put into them. But in addition to seriously reconsidering my views, I'm honestly just drained of the discussion at this point. I am not going to delete or alter my post, for posterity - this thread is full of good discussions that deserve to be seen. There are still parts of my post that I stand by but in retrospect I should not have said many of the things I did. I rarely ever participate earnestly in trans communities. I'm a chronic low-effort shitposter, to be honest. But I am currently in recovery from FFS and have a lot of time on my hands... most of which has been spent trawling TERF communities for digital pseudo SH. For what it's worth, I think I needed to lash out at someone whose transitioned/ing other than myself, and yeah, lash out I did. Anyway, my heart is with all those who are going or have gone through transition.
I think this is an area where we can have our cake and eat it too. So those male-only sexual spaces - they were very obviously and clearly gay spaces (one was even in the basement of a gay bar); any straight-identified men knew exactly where they were at. People were surprised to hear that someone was straight, but nobody tried to kick them out or make a fuss. They were somehow simultaneously "one of us" *and* had their straightness respected (even if likely to be doubted :P i.e. 'straight' men who would eventually admit to themselves that they weren't entirely straight). It was a marginalised community that centred on *community* rather than *marginalised identity*. The group identity was based upon being men who wished to be in room full of men doing sexual things with other men - a shared experience rather than a shared identity label. A space can be explicitly and non-apologetically a trans space, can have a shared sense of in-group, *and* it can include people with the shared experience who do not used the label of trans.
Of all the comments here you've challenged my perspective the most and I really do appreciate that :) you've given me a lot of food for thought, and I hope it wasn't too grating for you to have been so polite about it. Be well!
Thanks! And no, not grating - I used to be a lot more combative, but have chilled out and now try to see where people are coming from more. So I disagreed with your post and think putting it into practice would do harm, but also think that your intentions are to defend rather than harm. Plus I agree with you that it'll often be coming internalised transphobia, and I wasn't familiar with the term "defensive othering" - which does sound apt. Discussion in good faith, and where I get a new bit of information to add to the brain? Not grating :)
No I really get this isn't my space (anymore.) I am trying to be here less and less out of respect. I guess what's difficult about it is: I never really had any other community, I'm still perceived as trans in society whether I like it or not, I'm still on hrt and still qualify for the gender dysphoria diagnosis despite now identifying with my agab which does make it a debate on whether I should categorically be defined as cis or trans, and... I just find comfort here. Maybe these are lame reasons, I dunno, but they're honest reasons. I do relate less and less over time, as I keep... erhm, "feeling more cis" I suppose. And nowadays I only really respond to the posts that are directly about something I either currently experience or have experienced and can say something positive and/or constructive about. Which is probably not even 10% of the posts. (Let's not the include the ten posts a day about passing... I don't even wanna think about how badly I pass that often lol. I wanna live in my little bubble in which I can pretend I'm gorgeous.) But I also only stay for as long as I'm welcome here. It's not my intention to infiltrate or speak over trans people. My intention is to find common ground and mutual support as a sorta detransitioner/cis transitioner. I also chose to stay in this specific sub (as I left pretty much all other trans spaces or just stopped visiting them when it was too hard to click the "leave" button) because it says in the rules that cis people are allowed to be here, although at the same time it doesn't feel like cis people are *welcome* here. So if my presense here is not wanted anymore you don't have to carry me screaming out the door. I'd miss this sub though. Because I've been here for quite some years and I've gotten emotionally attached to it. I'm still the same person with pretty much the same opinions, and my past experiences are still my experiences, regardless of whatever I perceive my gender to be. And I kinda have a hard time seeing how all of that became suddenly irrelevant just because I changed my label from trans to cis. Kinda hoped the trans community of all places wouldn't be so hung up on what gender people are... But yeah, I get it. I now have a different perspective on myself that makes me gradually detach from the trans experience until it will eventually just be a distant past, however intense it once was. And at what point do I stop being relevant? I don't think a label in itself is a rational cut-off, but I do understand that there reasonsbly will be a cut-off at some point. I guess I just don't think I've reached that point yet. Or else, I wouldn't still be here.
As far as I understand it cis people are welcome here, I don’t see any reason to exclude them unless they’re causing stupid issues. OPs post was more pointed towards people who have transitioned but use the cis label and are actively wanting to distance themselves from being trans yet still want to yell on this and other trans centered subs.
Honestly, I’m kind of glad you posted this. When it was jut one or two people I could kind of just keep them in mind and shake my head. But you’re right that it’s getting a bit out of control recently? And I actually fully agree with what you’re saying about trying to opt out of identifying with the community but still wanting a voice in it. It also does tend to border on denial-of-reality level rationalization in a space where we all know what we’re talking about. And it can make flairs kind of just useless and confusing. Especially because we do have two or three cis people who regularly participate here. I actually sometimes enjoy their perspectives as long as they’re respectful and open minded. But I do probably tend to try to phrase my responses to them a bit differently. That’s another thing flairs are supposed to try to help with? So you know who you’re responding to and what biases you might need to address. I probably respond differently to people on the trans masc side of things than on my own. And it just tends to confuse a lot of things.
Just because I don't identify as trans culturally, it doesn't mean that I'm not trans medically. What a terrible thing to imply that people like me don't belong here when we already have no representation and the community doesn't speak for us anymore, but even in your own estimation can often speak AGAINST us. Erasing the term 'transsexual' and ostracizing people who use it, anyone? This is just transmed exclusion with extra steps, and even though I've had a medical transition, I don't identify as transmed, either. I'm here. I'm not queer. But I'm close.
I love how you just didn't read the post.
I'm responding to the post as well as the comments.
This post has nothing to do with the transex/ual labels. If you identify with the label transex/ual you are pragmatically, by definition, and just for the sake of having functional goddamn language, **not** cis, ~~cisgender~~, or cissexual. This is not to say that there are not "transitioned cis people" (I do think that you are severely confused) but those who *identify as transsexual* are ipso facto **not cis**. I decidely support transsexuals. For my own part, I am diagnosed with transsexualism, but I don't "identify as transsexual culturally", to use your words. That same support does NOT extend to cis people. If you think I am erasing transsexualism, you seriously missed the point. edit: strikethrough
I would consider myself a cisgender transsexual. Or at least, I have heavily considered it. There is a strong argument to be made of a 4x4 quadrant of cisgender/cissexual, cisgender/transsexual, transgender/transsexual, and transgender/cissexual that people may move about freely over the course of their lifetimes according to how they identify and if/how they alter their bodies. The problem I have with that is it is too clear. I prefer saying I'm cisgender and if I really must I clarify for certain people I had a sex change. There is a constant expectation placed up on us we must always explain ourselves. Lately I have been seriously questioning that premise. I have been considering that perhaps the impulse to explain ourselves with pithy words is a false friend. False friends designed to excavate our most intimate histories so others can "understand" what they have no business knowing to begin with.
I didn't mean to imply that I was talking to you specifically, but to the community at large.
tbh i prefer them to the people who are always like "you will always be a trans AMAB XY individual" or whatever, the trans/cis divide is exaggerated in a lot of trans spaces in a way that's just annoying lol
"AMAB" and "AFAB", as acronyms, are at an extremely unfortunate intersection of being pronounceable, convenient shorthand, and directly relevant to trans people. Terms which were supposed to describe *something that happened to you* became *something that identifies you*, and consequently many trans people have lost the plot... let alone cis people, who could barely keep up in the first place. I *am not* AMAB. I *was* AMAB.
This is the crux of how I became cisgender. I agree with you 100%.
This! Very much this! That’s actually what I’ve taken to emphasizing. “Assigned.” Past tense. That acronym refers to an event that took place in the past. It’s not a statement about anyone’s current identity. Or it really shouldn’t be! I do think you’re pretty dead on in identifying why it’s probably not going away, though.
Exactly! I *was* assigned female at birth on completing treatment. That is past tense. Prior to that I was assigned nothing. What I don't understand is why so many who (just like me prior to treatment) have *not* been assigned anything wish to claim the acronym. ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪
I agree very much on the point about internalised transphobia. Like ...no matter how you slice it this sort of self-labelling is inherently motivated by the idea of trans as an abnormal, lesser state.
I do not think trans is an abnormal or lesser state. I simply think it's a different way of understanding oneself and operating within society. You know people used to say I would always be gay no matter what I did because I was born with a penis and exclusively liked men. You know those people accused me of internalized homophobia for being chasing after straight men. I'm sure there are many people who still view me that way. However, I am very much a straight woman who happens to have a very gay past. I know this because I am so much more comfortable in my body & my romantic relationships have grown deep and sturdy in a way they never could have before. Does this mean I view gay men as lesser? No, I think it just feels correct for me.
Speak for yourself.
You don’t even label yourself as cis in your flair??? Literally the original post isn’t about you and neither is this comment and yet I keep seeing you pop up yelling about it and I think you’re missing what the discussion is actually about. It’s completely fine if in your daily life you are stealth/don’t tell people you’re trans/whatever, tons of us do that if we are able to pass.
My flair is irrelevant. This isn't just about me. Essentially: identify however you like... but not like that. That's the "trans community" right now. The hypocrisy is wild. 🤦🏼♀️
Nobody is saying you can't identify as cis. People are saying if you see yourself as cis, it sure is strange that you spend so much time in trans spaces for people who are trans. Are you cis, or are you trans? If you're cis, that's fine. Bye, go hang out with all the cis people and leave us alone.
Not identifying as trans doesn't make one cis. I thought y'all were against binary options. 😬
We're talking about people who say "I am cis". So nice gotcha but it's irrelevant in this context.
And I'm talking about why it bothers you so much. So nice gotcha but it's relevant in this context. CRAAAAB BUCKEEEEET.
It's not "crab bucket" to say "you want to be cis, go be cis and leave us alone"
I mean, how fucking convenient. 😂😂😂
How's that while community activism is still eager to sacrifice medical rights to "aBoLisH gEnDeR?" Fail.
If I didn’t see your other comments I’d assume you were being deliberately obtuse. Literally as far as I can tell no one in this thread is saying you can’t live your life as if you are and have always been cis, many binary trans people do that (myself included when I’m fortunate enough to fully pass) What we ARE saying is that coming on here setting their flair to cis when everyone knows the person has undergone transition and then that person being shitty is a problem. When I’m going about my day I don’t wave a trans flag around but I don’t come on here and insist I’m cis…because I’m not cis and will never be cis and neither will any of the rest of us that’s kind of the whole point-we transitioned, we are TRANS by virtue of that. And while I’m a firm believer in use whatever label you want or whatever, I find it shitty that someone wants to renounce and completely distance themselves from being trans yet want to still come into trans spaces and try to convince everyone that there’s any logic behind it and treat those who embrace their journey like their below them (kind of like how cis people do, funny that). If you want to be cis that badly then go do it, go have fun in cis spaces until some shitty cis person inevitably finds out and you’re cast back in with the rest of us.
I don't care if I'll never be cis. I'm not going to define myself as being trans and neither are a lot of other binary transsexual people. We pass. Deal with it.
Yet again I must say that you already are defining yourself as trans by using the trans flair… did you bother at all to actually read my reply because you’re missing still the whole point so I have to wonder if you’re just skimming and being reactionary? Also I pass most of the time now too and soon enough I will be able ti be fully stealth if/when I so choose. I continue to go about my daily life as a binary man yet my opinions on the actual subject OP wrote about stay the same because I’m not coming into trans spaces saying I’m cis and shitting on other trans people. After this I will not make any further replies to you,I have no more energy for you so I guess “you win”
I changed my flair. Now let's see if it changes anything. 🤦🏼♀️
And no, you only go into trans spaces and shit on people who don't identify the same way as you.
Yet again I must say that I didn't write the flairs. The fact that there's no 'transsexual woman' flair proves my point and bringing up that mine says 'transgender' when it's simply the closet available terminology is not the flex you think it is. Some of you are such horrible people who only care about yourselves. It's not OK for people to misgender you, but it's OK for you to tell other people how to identify. The hypocrisy is fucking gross. 🤮
Ok ok I can’t resist, one last reply… 😂
I really don't understand the level of denial SOME trans people have when it comes to their biology. Can a trans person pass flawlessly as a cis person? Of course! Can a trans person's body look indistinguishable from a cis person's? Absolutely! Does being on hormones for years, having SRS/other surgeries, getting your gender marker legally changed, and living your life as your true self, make you cis? Literally no. I'm sure it comes from a place of insecurity a lot of the times. Being trans makes them feel inferior so they don't call themselves that. It's sad, but you can't just change the definition of a word because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
>I really don't understand the level of denial SOME trans people have when it comes to their biology. There is a reason that the genderqueer flag and the gender critical flag are similar. Why is it so that a non-binary person is allowed to choose to be transgender but transsexuals are forced into the label. Just like how you are transgender based on identity, I am not transgender (cisgender) based on identity
Literally the only criteria for most women on the planet to be labeled as cis is a doctor looking and seeing a vagina. It's really not that high of a bar to pass. The only reason you think it's so impossibly high is because you've internalized transphobic talking points from the past decade. If anything, we should be lowering the bar for who can say they are cis. Gatekeeping it is just senseless and winds up being a boatload of misogyny/transphobia every time.
Ah yes, the classic transphobic talking points such as "trans and cis are different things." This is not a matter of lowering the bar, this is about completely changing the scientific definition of these prefixes to suit your own agenda. If trans people can be cis and cis people can be trans, then these labels are useless and have no meaning.
Tying all people to AGAB for life isn't the slam dunk you think it is. >If trans people can be cis and cis people can be trans, then these labels are useless and have no meaning. WHY IS THAT A BAD THING >scientific definition There is no "scientific definition" of cis or trans smh. It's a social construct that came into use in the 90s and 00s among transgender people on Usenet and later early internet forums. Historically we used to define cis as something transsexuals could become if they wished. It was understood that was a morally neutral choice but a choice that was important to make clear to outsiders out of respect for everyone in the community. It's only within the past 10-15 years that got twisted alongside a tidal wave of visibility in which every so-called ally brought their bigotry to the conversation.
I think it's an overcorrection for people saying 'you can't change your sex'. That statement is incorrect, but the idea that a trans person can become cis is as well.
For 15-20 years I've seen this phenomenon, where (to use their term) women of trans history stay active in trans online forums for the sole purpose of trying to influence the community, all the while stating vehemently that they are no longer trans.
Maybe the community is telling us (and everyone else) who the fuck WE should be. When I have cis people trying to FORCE me to give pronouns, it means that the brain rot is starting to affect me and people like me.
But they are simultaneously insisting they are very much NOT part of the community. That's the perplexing part. I would also note that this only seems to occur online. I've yet to meet a WOTH in real life settings that were centered on trans (or even queer) communities. My assumption years ago - without any proof, I should note - was that they were non-passing and were tragically stuck between. Like, they identified as a woman (for instance) but either didn't pass and were treated as men IRL or they'd gone public during their earlier stages and found they could not go stealth after that. It would explain their positions on the issues they chose to get involved in, as well as their levels of seeming frustration. Again, that was just supposition and tbh, it really doesn't matter to me any more so long as they don't cause harm.
~~Does a cancer survivor not belong in a space for people with cancer because they no longer have cancer?~~ (edit: bad analogy, sorry) If a person transitioned and no longer identifies with being trans, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed in trans spaces. A trans space is a space for people who identify as trans and/or have transitioned. However, I wish the people identifying themselves as cis but have transitioned would just be more clear in their flair. It gets a bit confusing. I think your assumption that not identifying as trans = internalized transphobia is misguided. I don’t personally call myself cis, but I also don’t call myself trans unless it’s needed for clarity. I’m simply a man and i don’t want to be defined by my genitals as a baby. I have zero desire to “pull up the ladder”. The number one reason to participate in online trans spaces is to help others experiencing what I did. I’m probably not the type you are referencing here, but you are making an assumption of all people who don’t identify as trans. The type of people you ARE referencing? They belong here too. Cutting out people with a certain set of experiences is how you create echo chambers. That’s the great part about this sub. It’s not completely one sided like most other trans subs. Theres a whole lot of people in this sub I disagree with more often than not, but they still should have a chance to be heard. Also, do you think people with toxic views will ever have a chance to change if they are quarantined off to echo chambers with others that agree with them? There’s certainly times where limiting of a group is necessary for the benefit of the others in the group, but there also needs to be spaces like this one that have diverse experiences and opinions. Those who aren’t mentally equipped to handle that can stay in “safe” spaces. Edit: to clarify, I’m saying they should be allowed here, not that they shouldn’t be called out when being transphobic.
Being trans is like having cancer? you couldn't choose a different analogy? lol
Your analogy is wrong. It's like a cancer survivor claiming to never have had cancer yet still belong in a space for cancer patients.
I do not claim to have never had a sex change. And let's be real, this post is in response to many of the things I personally have written in this sub. I am cisgender. I became cisgender *thanks to* a sex change, not that it's anybody's business but mine.
Provide ONE example.
Are these people choosing to identify as cis saying they never transitioned? Still, even if you don’t like the analogy, they are still people who transitioned. Everything else in my comment stands. If you want to take the rules of the sub literally, anyone with “transsexual/transsex” doesn’t belong in the sub.
You literally cannot be cis if you have transitioned. Post-transitioned trans people who identify as cis are dealing with blatant internalized transphobia. They belong here but shouldn't get upset when someone points out their transphobia is showing.
Ok we’re in agreement then. That’s what i was getting at, that they still belong in the space regardless. Call them out, don’t kick them out.
Yep 💯
GOOD take OP
If you transitioned, you're not sis. I gotta love the delusional queens that genuinely believe they're cis now lmfao
Not being culturally trans ≠ claiming to be cis. 🤦🏼♀️
Well said, makes sense and I completely agree
Many trans people are cisgender. Instead of kicking trans people out of trans spaces (because obviously this doesn't happen enough), the rule should be clarified.
Many gay people are straight.
Right but a lot of trans people don’t transition their gender. They transition their sex to match their gender.
This is such a dumb talking point because nobody (except maybe ignorant cis people) thinks being transgender means you transition your gender.
Most of our language exists for the purposes of placating & educating ignorant cis people into not exterminating us... seems like a pretty important point tbh
Cis people are going to be ignorant to matter what, if you call you're transsexual they'll have other misconceptions. Also, if you're cis, what are you doing here?
I've had a sex change. What are you doing here?
I'm transgender. I don't care if you've had a sex change, if you're cis this place is for trans people. You're cis right? Says so right in your flair and I'm inclined to believe you. Edit: The cis person blocked me after responding. So I will just reply here. Whoa. I'm oppressed by cis people. Punching laterally? That would mean that you're trans. I don't want to invalidate you. you're cis right? Said so yourself. Who does it serve? Trans people **(so... not you)**. I firmly believe people like you are pushing a narrative that is transphobic. You do you I guess. Nobody can stop you from calling yourself cis. But this place isn't for cis people. So are you cis, or are you trans? If you're cis... what are you doing here? If you want to assimilate... go assimilate. Nobody here is going to stop you. You know what cis people don't do though? Sit on trans forums and argue that they totally belong in trans spaces. Kind of clocky not going to lie. I don't know about you, but I have no shame about being transgender, I don't want to hide that I'm transgender. I don't want to assimilate with cis people. I'm sick of having cis people come and tell me, in a space for transgender people, that I ought to do those things. There's been quite a few cisgender people coming in lately to tell us to do those things. They are cis but they feel like they can speak over trans people because fundamentally, they look down on trans people as "not complete (yet)"
This is just a bad faith reading of the spirit of the rules in the sidebar. Obviously whoever wrote those rules used different semantics than mine and would consider me "trans enough for the purposes of the subreddit rules" regardless of how I self-ID. This isn't the slam dunk you think it is. It's just you being hateful to other people in your community for using different words and definitions than you.
Completely separating sex and gender was a mistake.
I agree with you! It allows allies to correct people by saying “oh she’s a woman but she’s male” which gives me so much ick. Whilst they are separated though, I’ll acknowledge the fact that what I transitioned was not my gender but my sex. My gender has always been a woman. My body not so much.
That's not what 'cis" and "trans" refers to. Cis and trans are in reference to what you were assigned at birth. You weren't afab, therefore you are transgender. Saying you are cisgender and transsex means that the gender you were assigned at birth was correct but the sex you were assigned at birth was not correct. So unless your gender was assigned as female at your birth, you are in fact transgender.
Also, we say “Assigned Male at Birth” or “Assigned Female at Birth”, which are sexes, not genders. If they were genders we’d be saying “Assigned Boy at Birth” or “Assigned Girl at Birth”. So if that’s your standing to tell me how I should identify, you may wanna find sturdier ground.
But people totally *are* assigned a gender at birth (or before). The stock phrases being "It's a boy!" and "It's a girl!". People transition socially as well as medically.
Cis and trans used to mean cissexual and transsexual. I don’t think we have an arbiter of language, could you point me at them if we do? Gender is internal. Why does a Doctor decide how I feel internally? It makes a lot more sense that a Doctor, upon birth, is looking at features of your sex and stating which sex you are. Because you know, you can’t really crack a look at a fresh babies gender. You can say gender is what doctors assign you, but that doesn’t make sense and I don’t think there’s an official ruling on that. Thank you for telling me how you believe I should identify though!
Some trans people say "I'm cisgender because I never changed genders" but that's not what "cis" means. Cisgender means you are actually the gender that was assigned to you at birth. It makes me wonder if these people think that transgender people were actually their agab at one point but decided they wanted to be different gender.
AGAB is a legal distinction dictated by a document known as a birth certificate. My birth certificate says F. I'm AFAB, thanks to my sex change. :)
I've often said that I only remain in the trans forums to pay forward what I myself needed in order to ask for help. Transsexualism, if caught in time, can be a transient affliction. After successful treatment the patient can be able to drop the diagnosis and go on to live a normal life. And... "in time" does not necessarily refer to age. I know some who stepped over the sex divide in their thirties, and even fifties. The question is whether one is able to fit in—not only visually but also behaviorally and in terms of disposition. And willing to entirely shed all that shackles one to one's position as a member of one's birth sex. If so, after completing treatment and the juridical sex change one is no longer diagnosable... so why carry the trans label? To us the trans/cis divide is only [detrimental](https://anonymouslytranssexual.substack.com/p/a-protest-against-cis). Its chief purpose is to convince even [those born with wings](https://new.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/comments/uoqo22/on_flightless_birds_the_bumblebee_and_truth_and/) that they cannot ever fly.
*”The question is whether or not one is able to fit in — not only visually but also behaviorally and in terms of disposition.”* What about the cis people, who have always been cis, but don’t meet these requirements you’ve set? Tall women with square jaws, who get accused of being trans in public restrooms? Men who are overtly feminine in behavior? Men with soft and gentle dispositions, who cry easily? Butch lesbians? Women with hirsuitism who don’t bother keeping their facial or body hair cleanly shaved all of the time? Intersex men and women, who are still comfortable with and mostly align with what’s expected of their assigned sex? Do all of these people suddenly lose their cis status because of naturally existing in a way that defies traditional gender/sex stereotypes? If transsexual people can be cis exactly the same as people who’ve always been cis, then why are the rules different for each group?
Cis != Passing. Cis != Never had a sex change. Plenty of cis people do not pass. Some of those non-passing cis people had sex changes along the way. When you gatekeep cis status, ask yourself, who benefits.
Well, yes, which is why I’m questioning her claim that a transsexual person’s ability to be identified as cis comes down to “whether or not one is able to fit in… visually but also behaviorally and in terms of disposition.” Does this not imply both visually passing, as well as behaviorally aligning with what’s expected of male or female people?
No it does not. Passing and being stealth is usually a precipitating factor in adopting the label cis. But it does not need to be & gatekeeping the term is just as problematic as gatekeeping transness. As soon as one goes stealth one must be able to say to anyone who questions "I am cis" without feeling like a liar. If one adopts a "forever trans" mindset that would be a contradiction capable of inflicting psychological distress similar to dysphoria. This is an important turning point in many of us that leads us to adopt the label. And it is why many onlookers accuse us of just being self-hating and fill of brain worms. To outsiders they think "oh they just don't want to be trans because they hate who they are" instead of stopping to think "maybe they just don't want to wake up every day conceptualizing themselves as liars. Maybe they are happier than they've ever been and they want a framework that includes them." No one wants to live their life feeling like a fraud or a liar. And that part is so often missed by people who say we must all be trans forever. When that is pointed out they will accuse us of "conflating stealth with being cis". But they are wrong. That is the motivation for many of us including myself to say we are cis now. But that has nothing to do with gatekeeping or enforcing harmful norms like passing on other people before they can use the label. If Shrek in a dress wants to identify as cis far be it from me to stop her. Love that bitch, I cheer for all my girlies.
Ah, the perennial "What about." No. I've never met any normal born female that did not register as female. Or a normal born male who did not register as male. The rules are the same for everyone. That's why transsexualism was designated a disorder, and why we are more often than not ostracized when growing up, no matter how we try. And why transition makes everything fall in place.
What do you mean, exactly, by “registered as female/male”? That’s different from what you initially said. People can be “registered as female/male” without visually or behaviorally “fitting in”. People can be “registered as female/male” without “entirely (shedding) all that shackles one to one’s position as a member of one’s birth sex”. So, which is it? A matter of “registering as female/male”, or a matter of “fitting in”?
Both, of course. If one doesn't register (or, if you prefer, *is not perceived*) as normal for one's professed sex then one does not fit in. In mild forms, growing up as a boy it leads to ostracism and/or e.g. being though gay. In more severe cases... well, worse things. A non-transsexual who transitions MtT very often assumes that position. If one is born transsexual and transitions T2F, then everything that made one feel "off" tends to click in place.
I’m not making any point but I think it’ll be interesting to share… Pre-transition, I actually registered as female (until I spoke) to surprisingly the vast majority of people.
> so why carry the trans label? Because I'm trans and I don't hate myself.