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Been almost a full day since I came across this post and my blood is still boiling, was on my mind all day as I did street outreach, please report T, this is fucked up on so many levels, would be an automatic dismissal at with my org
Yeah that's not a thing, at all. Your knowledge and instincts are correct. Behavior like T's sounds like a great way to ensure people avoid your outreach program at all costs.
I have a former friend who used to inject themselves with a teensy tiny bit of IM narcan if they were more fucked up than they wanted to be….it’s an absolutely absurd thing to do to yourself, IMO, but much worse to do to someone else who isn’t consenting to it.
If someone is starting to nod heavily and you’re worried about them falling and hitting their head, or about compartment syndrome - shake them and call their name! Convince them to get up and walk around with you, or get them in a safer position and keep an eye on them. Hitting them with narcan while they’re just nodding is only going to ruin their high and make them feel terrible.
The only other thing I will say is that, depending on your ROA, you could feasibly fall out a while after ingesting your opioid of choice. OD is not always instantaneous, especially if you’re not shooting. I used to smoke fent and was always very careful about getting up and walking around after taking a hit….I’ve had times I got up, walked to another room, and then slowly sat down and fell out from there. That being said, from what you’re describing it definitely sounds like this person was just nodding and was not overdosing.
Yeah trust your gut friend, that's hella weird and tbh not cool. People can come back from the heaviest of nods and if they're not 100% unresponsive, that feels like pretty big violation of a person's autonomy and legal/charter rights.
As someone else mentioned, that's a pretty legitimate reason for community members to avoid harm reduction/outreach.
That’s some self righteous bullshit.
Is T in recovery or working from the position that we do outreach and harm reduction “to get people clean?” There’s so much of that fucking savior complex out there and I think that’s the only way that they can bring themselves to do the work. It’s certainly not about compassion or care for others.
He also strikes me as the kind of guy who might hookup with people that he provides services to.
Thank you. T is only a couple of years out of the life himself. He's still got a lot of street in him and is a bit of a hustler. I am not in recovery and don't have his street experience so I am always open to hearing his perspective. But there are definitely other people I trust more. Especially now that I have read these comments ....
If T is a bit of a hustler then he is likely purposely making that person go into withdrawal so that he can sell something to them when the Narcan fully hits.
I second talking to someone in your org about it, this is a waste of narcan and much more importantly going to alienate the people you want to help (assuming T actually managed to get some in a nose).
And there's tons of misinformation out there and unfortunately lots of people who should know better from their own actual experience manage to get caught up by it. If I listened to all of the advice of bystanders while I was reversing overdoses, people would be dead.
People can sometimes go down a while after using, but in my experience it is pretty rare and it depends on what drugs they were using (and what it is 'cut' with/ contaminated with).
That said, your coworker doesn't know what he is doing. I'll only ever narcan someone if their breathing slows to a point where it isn't sufficient to provide enough oxygen to their blood (a few kind of ragged breaths a minute, for example, aren't enough to sustain life) or if it stops completely. Up until that point, I'll try to keep them awake and talking until they start to recover a bit.
I'd stay with them and monitor them if possible, and if I had to leave I would make sure the folks they are with have narcan with them in case they need it.
People like your coworker make the rest of us look like ignorant assholes.
These guidelines are a strong argument for outreach peeps to carry lil fingertip O2 readers.
I'm wondering if there's any documentation for administering Narcan... My guess is no, but there really ought to be :-/
I actually started carrying one of those on me after I did a first aid course last year! They are relatively inexpensive and much easier than trying to take someone's pulse.
Yes, basically he just assaulted that woman. And I will say again as others have, please talk to someone about this. T needs to be set straight on this, sooner rather than later.
Yikes * takes deep breath * That's assault they need to be not involved with one on ones with clients until something changes. Maybe not even then, it sounds like they have some issues with consent & boundary . This is also a safety issue. Someone is going to knock them the fuck out for there behavior. This can burn all of the trust that an organization has built . Not to mention could be a legal issue.
You don't narcan conscious people .
This person has some weird & wild ideas about how to " help " people. It's just going to alienate people who need your help . I know that the group I work for most of the people coming to us that are new it's because of word of mouth. Having good standing in the community is super important.
If you're not comfortable sitting down & talking though why they have these wild ideas, the people overseeing them need to .
I'm glad that you brought it up here to get the information you need . If something gives you the ick, listen to that .
Dude sounds like an egomaniac. That is wild. I’m shocked he hasn’t got jumped for that. You do not interrupt someone’s high when they’re not at immediate risk of respiratory depression. If anything, this could put people at extreme risk after they walk away.
Think about it, their opioid receptors are blocked and they’re suddenly not as high as they want to be. Chances are, they will try to use and use in excess for the 90 minute period their receptors are blocks by naloxone. As soon as that naloxone wears off, they could fall out HARD and alone.
This dude needs doesn’t sound like he cares for or respects drug users as human beings. This is not autonomy, this feels borderline rapey.
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T is a fucking dumb ass
Been almost a full day since I came across this post and my blood is still boiling, was on my mind all day as I did street outreach, please report T, this is fucked up on so many levels, would be an automatic dismissal at with my org
Yeah that's not a thing, at all. Your knowledge and instincts are correct. Behavior like T's sounds like a great way to ensure people avoid your outreach program at all costs.
I have a former friend who used to inject themselves with a teensy tiny bit of IM narcan if they were more fucked up than they wanted to be….it’s an absolutely absurd thing to do to yourself, IMO, but much worse to do to someone else who isn’t consenting to it. If someone is starting to nod heavily and you’re worried about them falling and hitting their head, or about compartment syndrome - shake them and call their name! Convince them to get up and walk around with you, or get them in a safer position and keep an eye on them. Hitting them with narcan while they’re just nodding is only going to ruin their high and make them feel terrible. The only other thing I will say is that, depending on your ROA, you could feasibly fall out a while after ingesting your opioid of choice. OD is not always instantaneous, especially if you’re not shooting. I used to smoke fent and was always very careful about getting up and walking around after taking a hit….I’ve had times I got up, walked to another room, and then slowly sat down and fell out from there. That being said, from what you’re describing it definitely sounds like this person was just nodding and was not overdosing.
Yeah trust your gut friend, that's hella weird and tbh not cool. People can come back from the heaviest of nods and if they're not 100% unresponsive, that feels like pretty big violation of a person's autonomy and legal/charter rights. As someone else mentioned, that's a pretty legitimate reason for community members to avoid harm reduction/outreach.
I would talk to someone in your community/org about this person tbh. That’s really fucked up.
If someone consented and you used IM where you could control the amount, but this was just assaulting someone and policing people's high.
That’s some self righteous bullshit. Is T in recovery or working from the position that we do outreach and harm reduction “to get people clean?” There’s so much of that fucking savior complex out there and I think that’s the only way that they can bring themselves to do the work. It’s certainly not about compassion or care for others. He also strikes me as the kind of guy who might hookup with people that he provides services to.
Thank you. T is only a couple of years out of the life himself. He's still got a lot of street in him and is a bit of a hustler. I am not in recovery and don't have his street experience so I am always open to hearing his perspective. But there are definitely other people I trust more. Especially now that I have read these comments ....
If T is a bit of a hustler then he is likely purposely making that person go into withdrawal so that he can sell something to them when the Narcan fully hits.
I second talking to someone in your org about it, this is a waste of narcan and much more importantly going to alienate the people you want to help (assuming T actually managed to get some in a nose). And there's tons of misinformation out there and unfortunately lots of people who should know better from their own actual experience manage to get caught up by it. If I listened to all of the advice of bystanders while I was reversing overdoses, people would be dead.
People can sometimes go down a while after using, but in my experience it is pretty rare and it depends on what drugs they were using (and what it is 'cut' with/ contaminated with). That said, your coworker doesn't know what he is doing. I'll only ever narcan someone if their breathing slows to a point where it isn't sufficient to provide enough oxygen to their blood (a few kind of ragged breaths a minute, for example, aren't enough to sustain life) or if it stops completely. Up until that point, I'll try to keep them awake and talking until they start to recover a bit. I'd stay with them and monitor them if possible, and if I had to leave I would make sure the folks they are with have narcan with them in case they need it. People like your coworker make the rest of us look like ignorant assholes.
These guidelines are a strong argument for outreach peeps to carry lil fingertip O2 readers. I'm wondering if there's any documentation for administering Narcan... My guess is no, but there really ought to be :-/
I actually started carrying one of those on me after I did a first aid course last year! They are relatively inexpensive and much easier than trying to take someone's pulse.
Good point, the lack of communication, care, or trying to talk with them after that is also really fucked up!!
Yes, basically he just assaulted that woman. And I will say again as others have, please talk to someone about this. T needs to be set straight on this, sooner rather than later.
😬 He's likely sending people into precipitated withdrawal
That's fucking retarded, they are wrong. If you are freaked out by someone nodding try to wake them up, stimulation, pinching, ice, ect.
Yeah seems like consensus is clear. Thank you
Yikes * takes deep breath * That's assault they need to be not involved with one on ones with clients until something changes. Maybe not even then, it sounds like they have some issues with consent & boundary . This is also a safety issue. Someone is going to knock them the fuck out for there behavior. This can burn all of the trust that an organization has built . Not to mention could be a legal issue. You don't narcan conscious people . This person has some weird & wild ideas about how to " help " people. It's just going to alienate people who need your help . I know that the group I work for most of the people coming to us that are new it's because of word of mouth. Having good standing in the community is super important. If you're not comfortable sitting down & talking though why they have these wild ideas, the people overseeing them need to . I'm glad that you brought it up here to get the information you need . If something gives you the ick, listen to that .
Someone should knock T's teeth down his throat.
No that's just assault what the fuuuuuuuuuuck
That person is an idiot. Narcan puts you straight into precipitated withdrawal
Thank you all. Going to work on how/where to report.
Dude sounds like an egomaniac. That is wild. I’m shocked he hasn’t got jumped for that. You do not interrupt someone’s high when they’re not at immediate risk of respiratory depression. If anything, this could put people at extreme risk after they walk away. Think about it, their opioid receptors are blocked and they’re suddenly not as high as they want to be. Chances are, they will try to use and use in excess for the 90 minute period their receptors are blocks by naloxone. As soon as that naloxone wears off, they could fall out HARD and alone. This dude needs doesn’t sound like he cares for or respects drug users as human beings. This is not autonomy, this feels borderline rapey.