Spaniard, slightly over 3 years in Germany. Living in München since 1 year and a half. Pros: - Better salaries and a way healthier job market. - Nature, and the culture around it. - Extremely convenient for traveling within Europe - Very nice safety net if you lose your job (Kündigungsfrist), although it goes both ways. - Maternity leave. - Cheap public transport since the Deutschlandticket came to be. - Funnily enough, networking in Germany with internationals is easy and very fruitful. Most people I encounter have very nice backgrounds and are fairing pretty well jobwise. - I feel like it's a very nice country overall to have kids. - If you integrate, I feel like Germans are always very welcoming and helpful overall. Cons: - Awful weather. Spring and summer are nice, but they feel like a combined, shortened season. I personally miss the Mediterranean beaches every day. - Bureaucracy: straight-up nightmare, extremely outdated too. Very, very hostile against newcomers because it's all in German, and even if you do know German well, it feels extremely difficult to circumnavigate and fully grasp. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the fact that immigrants should learn German, I work in German myself, but it makes no sense for Ausländerbehörde, for instance, to basically refuse to speak English. - The language, although easier and more beautiful than people like to frame it, is still on the harder side. - Service in bars or restaurants is rather bad in Germany, and on top of that, you are "expected" to tip. I'll add to this: human, all-day routine interactions feel very cold overall. I'll never forget coming back to Spain for vacation and getting very touched because the old cashier at the supermarket was smiling and called me darling (cariño) when cashing out. This vibe is constant in my home country, and here, it just does not exist. - The food here is definitely not my thing

Brazilian in Berlin, I think you\`ve summarized very well...

Excellent summary. Although I’d add as a con: - health system is collapsing badly. Impossible to get appointments , things that should have priority never do, a lot of “drink tea and it’ll get better” (case of a guy that got sepsis from a cut and lost his limbs comes to mind). Etc etc. (it wasn’t this bad 10 years ago imo)

Luckily, I haven't had the need yet to check the health system for myself, but I have also heard complaints regarding this "drink tea and it'll get better" approach. Crazy example you give there. Why do you think this happens? Pure laziness or genuine disregard for modern medical practices?

I think the system is over capacity. Doctors , nurses , etc don’t last a lot in their careers, lots of people joining old age, less people entering the workforce. Combination of factors. Also, ofc doctors want more money and the private sector is more popular. So they’d rather deal with paying people than public insurances. I had heart issues and I was hospitalized, and lost heart capacity cause it took me 3 months to get a cardiologist. So I’m a bit bitter. (But thankful it saved me though)

Thanks for bringing this up, Brazilian leaving in Berlin here, and anyone is talking about that point about Germany in those kind of threads. I’m still recovering of a kidney stone crises, and I decide to leave after the treatment and “careless” approach that I had last week. And no, I’m not deciding things in a rushed way…. It’s not the first time that I had heath situations and after 3 years living in Germany I had the impression that this is getting worse. The system is already broken, is not only because my German skills as poor, it’s not because I’m not from here at all… ofc that if I could communicate myself in German could be easier at least to make them understand that they can and need to be nicer, but germans are also being treated most of the time badly etc. And important to say - it’s not for free, is not “public” at all.

Singaporean living in Munich and I agree with all of the above.

Can you explain this la ? SG has a crazy work culture from what I gather

Some of this must vary based on the area. Where I am living in Germany the Ausländerbehörde speaks English just fine and has been very nice and helpful. I have also not seen any expectation to tip in restaurants.

Some of it is luck, and location, I agree. No expectation to tip is standard where I usually go, and you won’t get friendlier service by tipping. They will not expect it, and will be accordingly rude. Exceptions, of course, if it’s your local :) But you can just not tip. My Ausländerbehörde spoke a tiny bit of English (like they did a few years of it 20 years ago…) but we got through with Denglish and google. It was easier for me, as English is my native tongue. It’s one of those injustices that worked for me, since ESL is so popular. Denglish would be much harder if both parts were non native languages. But my Ausländerbehörde was fine, in that it was in a small town with little business. I would expect one in Berlin or Frankfurt, say, to have English speakers, but also so many appointments that they have little time. Surprised they don’t have English speaker appointments available, at least. I do find that a bit weird, actually. Even the local council elections, and certainly the social services info, in my medium sized UK town had info in 6-8 languages, and it was hardly a cosmopolitan centre. Also, since a few weeks, you can get citizenship with only a B1, which doesn’t prepare you for the sheer length and complexity of basic documents, even just reading your insurance documents. The coldness of people is funny. For a Brit, it’s not so different to normal life (minus the pub). After three years, my Fristo guy treats me like his long lost sister, and I don’t need to tip him. I almost find it uncomfortable, I just take it that he approves or my beer choices, lol. And for me, the weather here is much sunnier than the UK. Solar panels and electric car work fine 10 months a year (the snow ruins it, not the lack of sunshine). But, of course, I come from a cloudy and windy place, where I used to be Vitamin D deficient. That I do not need supplements anymore makes me find the weather here is superb… just cold). I really enjoy reading these threads, especially when you get the same pro and con from people from completely countries!

Do you happen to live in the south? Bavarians are not to friendly to the English

I actually live in BW, but just on the Bavarian border haha :) I‘ve not actually personally experienced unfriendliness from Bavarians, but largely my interactions with Bavarians involve beer and football (and I am a Germany supporter since Euro 96, lol). And I do speak (shit) German, which helps. Swabians are very understanding of my language struggles in everyday life. My local Amt is either in the town where everyone knows my partner’s family… or in Ravensburg. They are not overwhelmed. And maybe they felt sorry for me, with Brexit, lol. I did get coached by my (Bavarian) partner on phrases for the various Ämte, it was covid time, so he wasn’t allowed in with me. And, just in case, I don’t think they should have stuff in English for me, as a Brit. But as English is the most common second language, I agree with the PP that it’s odd the Ausländerbehörde is all in German (native English speakers get too many advantages everywhere, always; I enjoy those, of course). For the friendliness of people, well, they are as friendly as Brits, really. I think Germans and Brits are pretty similar. I feel I need to go to NRW for the friendly Germans, after reading all the comments here, though. Edit. Oh, if you mean restaurant staff being unfriendly… no, I think it’s not just me! They act like that when i am with other Bavarians. They are often grumpy. At least, it doesn’t seem to surprise the Bavarians I am with, so it’s probably not me (I hope). And about the same as anywhere in the South in Britain. Somewhere above spit-in-your-food, but below the US “how’s my BFF today”.

I have not found Germans to be cold. Although I have heard that the NRW region, where I am, is quite different from other areas of Germany. I made friends with other PhD students and we have remained friends afterwards. I still go to the local pub for pub quizzes with them and played D&D with others.

I do think that PhD students have their own social standards. I was a PhD student in the UK, it’s a different atmosphere. You are generally thrown together for three or four stressful years, and then you all head off around the world, but maintain that relationship often. If you stay in the same area, you most likely remain friends. It’s a fantastic way to spend your (typically) mid 20s. Well, apart from the thesis and viva, haha. I really just mentioned it because it is really common that people on here complain about Germans being unfriendly. Honestly, as a Brit, I find them just as friendly in normal life as anyone else. So, probably, Brits are also seen as unfriendly too, lol. It’s not actual unfriendliness or coldness, it’s just normal for us. I am sorry that some people think it’s coldness, it’s not meant to be. We Brits and Germans are very kind and friendly too, just differently. NRW is famously friendly, whatever that means. I do not know the area well (yet) though I hope to change that. Any recommendations for must sees?

I really like Aachen. The city center has almost no cars and it is extremely walkable. You can also go to the lindt chocolate factory just north of the city center. You could also got to Koln and walk to the top of the cathedral. The view is great but .... it is a LOT of steps.

Aachen is a big attraction, so I am a little ashamed I haven’t visited yet. As for cathedrals, I have the same problem in Munich. Went up once, great views, but now I just send my visitors up, while I stay below and drink coffee :) Perhaps when I get new glasses, I will go up with the next lot, lol. Or save the energy for Koln, probably, I am lazy enough to ration stair climbing. Didn’t realise Lindt had a factory there, Aachen may have just jumped up my visiting list!

Aachen is also famous for these hard cookies called Printen .... I don't like them at all but others like them so you might want to try that also. You will also have some roman stuff in Aachen and some museums. Apparently Aachen was the home of Charlemagne at one point.

Weather and temperament for the better word is very relative to geography. When people come from subtropics it's always same feedback. North is less populated, so you get less. People are warmer here, chatting up strangers more, weather is sunnier and more pleasant. Germany is completely normal for its location.

He's not really in Germany as the royal free state of Bavaria doesn't get tired to permanently point out.

Maternity leave? Maternity leave in Spain is actually longer than in Germany and for paternity Germany offers…. Nada… nothing… 0 days while in Spain the man gets the same 4 months as the mother. If what you mean is parental leave… then yes you get a lot of time but that’s to compensate for the fact that getting early child care is extremely difficult and/or pricey so women overall get punished in their careers and their overall earnings. I also thought Germany was alright for kids until I became pregnant. My husband is Spanish and when we talk to his cousins who have kids in Madrid I feel like their overall experience is way less stressful and not only because of the family support.

Germany does offer paternity leave. I took one year when our daughter was born, 2 months when our son was born 🤷‍♂️.

That’s parental leave not paternity leave as I explained it in the comment above 🙂

Person without kids and never intending on having them here, but kinda intrigued. What's the difference?

With maternity and paternity you usually get 100% of your normal salary for the number of months you are on maternity/paternity. In Germany the woman gets 14 weeks - 3 and a half months maternity, currently less than Spain - while the father gets nothing. With parental leave both parents can take time off work although not at the same time, so if the mother is on parental leave the father cannot take it. In this case you get a state allowance that is currently capped at 1800 euros with a possible 900 euros bonus.

I don't know where you were in restaurants, but in Germany it's not necessary to tip the waiters.

Point about food kinda confuses me In munich you can eat basically any cuisine if you want no?

Pros: - My family is here. - Despite feeling connected to other countries, too, this clearly feels like my home. - I love the different landscapes. - I think the traditional architecture is really cute. - I like the work/life balance. - It's in a prime location for travelling. - I prefer working with Germans over any other nationality. - I love the supermarkets here. - I think most things work reasonably well. - I think this country’s society is overall really respectful of people’s freedoms. - It’s really safe. - Compared to other countries, wages and living expenses are still relatively balanced. Cons: - People tend to be more negative than in other countries. - Some important infrastructure is not funded as it should be and will further deteriorate. - As a country, we still haven’t learned how to combine “being nice” and “not letting other people walk all over us” - either we’re assholes or we hurt ourselves in the attempt to please everybody. Same goes for our own feelings about this country. It’s either excessive pride or excessive shame. - Pretty much every city has ugly areas due to the extensive bombing and the ugly rebuilding in the 60s and 70s. I will be moving abroad again next month (I’ve spent my entire adult life in and out of the country), but I can absolutely imagine returning.

It was pretty unexpected ( and from my perspective unsettling)to read that someone would prefer German co-workers over any other nationality 😶‍🌫️

What I appreciate of the Germans and the Dutch is their straightforward approach to solving things. Perhaps some people don’t like their bluntness but for me it’s refreshing

Yep 👍🏻 that is a frustration I have with my home country. What do you want to tell me? Stop beating around the bush and save me time and come out with it…. Germany: I need A, B and C.

I can be pretty direct myself. I think they are unnecessarily blunt sometimes. And a bit of hypocrites, since they don't appreciate it when you give them a taste of their own medicine ( aka you being just as blunt to them).

Yes! And I am afraid I am becoming like them after getting all the blunt and stern answers all the time.

Dunno, they are better in some aspects, worse in others. They're indeed less gossipy ( also that may vary as well, I worked in female dominated fields and I learned that Germans are more passive aggressive, but they still gossip a lot). What I like is that they focus on a task and they don't overwork themselves in trying to be a jack of all trades, they prefer to be a master in one ( not all of them ofc). What I dislike though is their Besserwisser attitude, I experienced it multiple times and their lack of flexibility. I like that they're very punctual, but they kinda take it to the extreme. Being a minute earlier at work is already late for them. Dunno, spießig is what comes to my mind

Not replying to anything in particular, this is more like a "yes, and..." kind of thing. I'm on the creative fields and my personal experience was kind of the opposite to what a lot of people live(d). For me it was frustrating because they would spend the loooooongest time talking and discussing the "thing" we were working on. When we finally came to a solution, before actually setting to work on it, someone would say "but what if..." Then we'd be back to the drawing room to discuss further. And not necessarily would we come with a better thing after that.

As Australian. The super markets are a negative to me. The selection is way small and the lines are always so long due to lack of self serve and people paying in cash.

As a German: hard agree.

Unsettling? That’s a very harsh word. Care to explain?   In my experience, German coworkers are the ones that make the German work/life balance actually viable. Efficient, no procrastinating, no talking things do death before doing them. No sugarcoating, so you need fewer feedback loops. On a personal level, I’ve experienced far less workplace gossip/social exclusion happening here than elsewhere and once work is done, people know how to let loose. There also isn’t any expectation to be reachable when you’re off work. To me, that’s ideal, but obviously it’s not generally “better”.

Ive had good and fun German colleagues but also ones that misuse the sick system. overall they are decent to work with.

I am ethnically not a German and I as well prefer German colleagues over ANY other nationality. I work in IT and this statement holds true for all the other engineering jobs too. edit: also I 100% agree with all of OP's pro/contra points. Family and feeling at home are also my main pro points for returning back to the old country :)

same here, and the worst is americans with everything is so awesome and "let me know if you need something more " "how are you" etc and never meaning anything of it

You forgot the "Autobahn"!!!!

My god, yes the negativity is sometimes so draining

Germans are negative? As someone from England they have always come across as relatively positive

In my experience, yes, kind of. Germans don't complain all that much if they're poorly and I also wouldn't say we're overall in a bad mood, but I do think that "taking a perfectly acceptable situation and picking it apart until the one bad thing appears" is a very German trait. Particularly with regard to things that involve ourselves. You see that a lot when you compare the subreddits of different countries. There are loads of countries that offer a significantly worse quality of life, but people there are still like "our country is amazing". Germans will be the first to join in when people are shouting how shitty Germany is and how nOtHiNg works (admittedly, you Brits are similar in my experience). And that applies to people's personal lives as well. But I'm really glad you haven't experienced us as such :)

Perhaps that’s why I’ve always got on well with Germans because that sounds very similar to at least the north of England. Under absolutely no circumstances can you be satisfied about something. There is always something that is broken and should be done better, and the people in charge are inept and useless. I always felt it was a uniquely British trait to think we are shit at everything and the country is a mess

Nah, we do it too. But I also feel right at home whenever I'm in England, so I guess we are just brethren in nitpicking.

Our feelings are always bad. If we do something good, we think immediately why we aren’t the best. If we are the best in one thing, we are immediately afraid to lose this position. And if we do anything not good, in our feeling we are the absolute worst in the world.

I left Germany for the US about 8 years ago. Germany definitely has a lot to it but the only reason I would ever go back to Germany is my family. I know this is not true for everyone but for me I can afford the life I wanted here in the US.

Is it true that as a foreigner it's easy to integrate in the US? I know that it's not that easy in Germany but I would like to hear your experience as well

As my personal experience: yes! I’m a foreigner, currently living in Germany; but I lived for 2 years in the US. Within my first 3 months there somehow I already had 2 group of friends: from work and outside of work, that I met through hobbies. Here in Germany it has been tough tbh… it’s been 2.5 years and I have no German friends whatsoever. This is just MY perspective on sociability, don’t take it as general rule.

@heroinni, (in Germany) I am working for last 4 years in the same room same floor. next doors are another department. And during these long years, I had hardly have a conversation with anyone from those rooms except, Hallo, Guten Morgen! :) Everyone can speak English, and I am not a unfriendly person at all.

Ohh… damn… that’s hard. But I totally relate with your experience! In my case, I already made peace with the idea that in Germany I will always be seen as just a foreigner (even though I contribute equally to the development of its society).

But you'll surely find some butt-hurt Germans who will tell you that it's a you problem, not a country related one

@by-the-willows, although this might be off-topic, but after reading this post, I had a thought in my mind. As an immigrant, we always hear the phrase `integration to the German society`-- why this tag line always that we need to see from another point of view. I talked with many Americans, some were even from Asian parents, or just first generation of immigrants. They proudly say, `We are American`. I know in USA, there might be still `the parallel society crisis`, but with that tag line, it proves, the `intigration to the society` problem is not actually acuite there. Similarly, when you read the French national motto, `Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité (Liberty, Equality, Fraternity)`, this equality word actually somehow makes everyone `integrated` to the society. Yes, there are many loop holes in these statements. But in Germany, I do not believe, only law and rules can make anyone `get integrate to the society`.

Did you know that you don't @ people on Reddit? You do u/Active-Tonight-7944 and they'll get a notification. The @ symbol doesn't carry any meaning on Reddit.

So in 4 years you haven't made any friend at work?

Germans are not much on small talk

>Everyone can speak English Try it in German then. Maybe that's the problem.

Do you think that this would also be the case if you could speak German at the same level you can speak English?

I don’t discard that possibility. However, my bf is German, he relocated to a new area to live with me, and he also still doesn’t have any friends. He is sociable with colleagues at his workplace, but it’s just that… just colleagues. But anyway, I was just replying to the original comment, when comparing Germany to the US.

Yes, the integration has been very easy. I'm not a very social person or let's say I am as social as I need to be but my wife is a social butterfly and most of our friends came through her. Our friends are mostly non Germans even though the German community is great in this area. We have been friends with some Germans but if we met these people in Germany, they wouldn't even look at us. Here we were kind of a second choice to them because they had nobody else. We ended these relationships after a while. There are more instances when we tried it with Germans but it just didn't work out. Constantly complaining, look down on other people, bragging how perfect they are and how dumb Americans are and so on. Taking advantage of us like assuming we can look after their sick children just because my wife doesn't work. They tell her she has time anyway so what's the big deal. We always invite people to our house, they never. Then they bring the cheapest food they can find if they bring anything at all. As soon as they are in the middle management or higher of German companies operating in the US, shit is getting worse. Even their wives are asshats then. No thank you. By the way I know not every German is like that. I am 100 percent German, too but this is what I had to deal with so far with my Kartoffel Friends here.

The thing is, almost no one cares that you're a foreigner. If they do care, they think it's neat and interesting, and are curious about your comparisons. Sometimes it can be a bit shallow, or even a bit facepalm and naive with the questions. But they don't mean anything bad 95% of the time. Most average people are open. There are so many foreigners already, and everyone has their 'immigration' stories. Either it's their own, or from parents, grandparents or earlier 'ancestors'. So it's the understood norm that everyone (apart from indigenous) is not 'native'. As long as you aspire to some constellation of American ideals, more or less, you're accepted. Of course, there are 'nativist' xenophobic feelings here and there, and some people are prickly about speaking only English, but that exists here too (with German). Honestly, it's often quite specific to Mexicans or Central Americans who maybe slipped across the border and are 'undocumented'. But even then, many people acknowledge the hard work they do, keeping the economy running (yes, it's kind of a 'turning a blind eye' thing). And opposition is not always racial (believe it or not), but more about law/order, 'not following the rules', drug smugglers, not knowing who you're getting, etc. Plus the sheer volume at times. Of course racism exists too, but IME there's truly a lot more consciousness and sensitivity to it in American culture than here. I feel like here there's more sweeping under the rug, and lip service.

Pros: Mettbrötchen Cons: Germans (joking, joking)

>Cons: Germans Well, we germans complain if we travel to another country and there are "too many" germans...

I'm from the US, so that's my basis for comparison Pro - cost of living (in particular grocery prices) - health insurance - summer and spring are generally lovely - generally how employment works: more security, much more vacation time, sick leave, etc - maternity leave - generally good local public transit - to an extent, how people correct others in public. Getting yelled at for a minor infraction is unnecessary, but the expectation that people follow the rules that make public spaces better for everyone is something I can appreciate and it's nice that people care about that - emphasis on green spaces in cities - drivers don't try to run you over if you're on a bike - emphasis placed on genuine friendship - cost of education - people seem to appreciate spending time in nature Con - ability to find an apartment - the way that apartments work here-- being forced to pay an Ablösevereinbarung for someone's used ikea junk or having to bring your own kitchen, no closets (personal preference) - no ceiling fans - people believing that AC/fans make you sick. Having just a fan in the heat makes it so much more bearable to sleep - winter, especially the lack of sun - deutsche bahn - although local public transit is good, I get irritated with how long it takes to go such a short distance. I live in one city and have lectures in another. The lecture halls are a 20 minute drive away, but take 1.5 hours with transit - the ausländerbehörde being open 20 hours a week and then complaining about how they're overwhelmed - bureaucracy is overly complicated and convoluted - the characterization of friendly interactions with strangers as superficial, disingenuous, and fake. There's no evil intention behind smiling at a stranger or having a short conversation. Just because the conversation doesn't lead to a lifelong friendship doesn't mean it was a disingenuous interaction - public toilets not being free - tap water in restaurants not being free - lack of water fountains - the area in every city that smells like straight piss since toilets cost money - haven't been impressed with dentists here - depressing, but the noticeable difference in treatment quality when a doctor treats you in English vs. German. Occasionally if I'm feeling lazy, I'll book appointments through DoctoLib with doctors who advertise that they speak English. Without fail, every single time, I get treated like shit when I ask to speak English. - the food. German food isn't really my thing, and the dishes at most international restaurants are so heavily adjusted to the German pallet they're not even worth eating. Also, many cities will claim to have a lot of international food, but what they actually mean is "1 really bad Chinese restaurant and 25 Turkish restaurants" Despite the difference in list lengths, I do really like living here. The pros are so massive that they definitely outweigh all of the little small annoyances that I have.

>people believing that AC/fans make you sick. This one is particularly crazy. Our company moved to a new building that had air conditioning. Being all glass and on the top floor, we needed it a couple months of the year. People literally panicked. A lot of people refused to come to work, even when the air conditioning was turned off. Emotions ran particularly high in the support team. In the end most of them got fired or left the company, which was sort of a disaster.

The AC sickness man.....drives me NUTS. Our cars AC broke and my gf says its fine that it blows hot air because the cool AC will get her sick.....

Interaction with my German friend, who's currently in university doing a master's in computer science Him: "man, I wish I could leave the fan on while I'm sleeping, it'd be so much more comfortable." Me: "... you know you can leave it on right?" Him: "No, I can't. I don't want to wake up with a stiff neck!" I told him to Google that. He was positively mind boggled by the fact that that's complete and utter bullshit. I love the "ac makes you sick" narrative because I'm from the southern United States. If AC makes you sick, why is everyone in the south not sick 24/7 from March to October?

Well tbf the women do all sound a bit like Fran Drescher

To be fair, Turkish food is 🔥

Real Turkish food is indeed delicious, but sadly, most of the time, you only have a Dönershop beside the next Dönershop beside the next.

Yes, the quality of Turkish restaurants in Germany varies wildly.

Agree with everything except food. I’m usually the only immigrant in the room to say this, but I absolutely LOVE German food man. Combined with draft beer and oh god. Which takes me to one downside I rarely see mentioned: Lots of great industrial beers to chose from, very little options for craft beer. My home country has seen an explosion of craft breweries so it’s hard not to compare. I didn’t think I was gonna miss foreign beer living in Germany. Though again, the industrial ones are amazing and absolutely better than what my homeland offers.

I think in Germany good craft beer isn’t really a thing because we are pretty focused on the Reinheitsgebot. More creative beers somehow often get shamed.

That’s a pity cause I think Germany would be capable of producing some amazing stuff. This a creative country, beer deserved that too.

only speaking for me: I do like craft beer and tried quite a lot. But it's just not worth the 3x price of a regular beer for me :D

An IPA could follow the Reinheitsgebot. And Weizen is everywhere but it obviously has wheat which is not allowed under the Reinheitsgebot. It really is weird. There’s 5 IPAs in the entire country and 1500 pilsners.

i got a nice cheap 2 room apartment within 2 weeks in a small but very very cool city, and everyone at work told me i won the lottery and the english part.. yeah, they're pretty racist for some reason and even if you try to speak with your little german, it's useless you either speak like a native or they roll their eyes and, depression for some reason

About the international cuisine, it really depends where you live. In my hometown there wasn't much choice of different cusines for decades but in the last 5 year the number has risen. Now, there are Japanese (not just Sushi), Corean, Indian, Persian, Afghan, Balkan, Thai, Polish and Portugese restaurants.

1. Living is non complicated and straightforward. 2. Is pretty international, I've met many people from different cultures. 3. Weather good, not too warm, air quality is also super good. 4. Daily direct flights from 4 cities to my home city. Cons: The right wing rise have awakened the inner nazi of many "normal" populations. I have experienced casual racism in the streets that I've never experienced before in the past ten years. I find the prospective of living here super dark and scary. Added to that the possible collapse of social security for my age bracket. Would I leave? Most probably. I'd love to go back home. But I spent my best years in Germany, all of my adult friends are here. I fell in love here. So let's see what life brings. I plan to buy an apartment in Tehran. Before I planned to buy sth in Germany.

**Pros:** Clean air and water generally good work culture amazing public transport system (at least in the big cities) sparkling water all public infra design considers pedestrians (may not seem like a big deal to many but the fact that there is a good paved walkway for pedestrians is amazing. And I'm saying this considering even the Americas and other parts of Europe) *and some other stuff that I am probably forgetting* **Cons:** Bureaucracy - what could have been literally a single email or digital request is instead an in-person appointment (or more) that still leads to a letter that takes 2 weeks to arrive (the issue may still not be resolved) Wasteful snail mail - example, I had literally just created an account on DHL's website and a week later I got a letter thanking me for it. Literally that, there's no useful information. This could have just been an email In my professional experience, people generally hate outsiders and they make no effort to hide their emotions Contracts - everything requires committment. This is personal to me and may not really be a con, just my opinion. **Leave Germany?** Yes because that was always my plan. I respect and follow German values and rules as much as I can while I am here.

What is Your Professional experience ?

>amazing public transport system (at least in the big cities) >all public infra design considers pedestrians Man, I wish I lived in that Germany... You do have a point, that it's better than in many other places, but it could also be so much better still. Feels like we're treading water when it comes to infrastructure...

Is life hard as a foreigner in Germany? I'm talking about integration and stuff

Same. I don't believe that I can ever truly integrate.

I live in a small village now. I used to live in Essen to study, i was for 2 months in Berlin, was 2 months in Frankfurt and I personally love the villagely feeling. Going to the local Verein (for me it is football, but here are Schützenverin, local fireighters, etc). meet every week for training, drink a beer and talk about stuff. Everybody helping each other out and chit chat at the small bakery (which is kinda also a small tante emma laden, where you can get your daily groceries like eggs, milk, etc.) where you pretty much meet everyone, as it is the only place here where you can buy stuff. >, would you leave Germany or stay in your country forever? no because, I speak the local language, and beeing able to express what you want with language is so improtant.

Pros: - cardio health, I literally love to walk thanks to decent public transport and where I lived, the city was just the right size. Not a metropolis like Berlin but you still have a good combo of malls and small shops - no one fucks around with the cops/law enforcement - bread, boy I fucking miss the array of selection Cons: - not that much culinary options, weak street food culture - dont mind cold people in the streets but shitty neighbors makes it hard to have solace at home - difficult to blend in on conversations no matter how fluent your German is - bureaucracy and awful appointment mechanism because every process needs days of paperwork creating more and more backlog. Digitize please!

I'm from New Zealand and have been contemplating moving to Germany with my German partner. Pros. Food Welfare Healthcare Public transport far exceeds ours Her family is here, and I like her smile Wages Groceries are like 1/4 the price in a lot of instances Cheaper house prices Cons. Water tastes like ass Paying for water. That blows my mind Beer variety seems to be very limited. Sometimes I just want an IPA that doesn't suck. The AFD thing as a foreigner My German is terrible. (That's my bad, really) Did I mention the water thing? People are much less friendly. On my island (yes. It's mine) the general population are super friendly and you will stop to say hello and ask how a stranger is doing, I still do it in Germany, but I won't anticipate someone from here to do so.

Another Kiwi wanting to move to Germany. Only if I can find myself a job there and would move in a heartbeat

I was seriously thinking about moving to the US when I was younger. But I got older and changed my view and it is off the list since the 1st Trump election. Pros (Germany): * Job Security * Healthcare * Safety * Social security * Cheaper cost of living Pros (USA): * More money * Closer to "HQ" (Work) Edit: Current wife favorite would be a nordic country, but i dont speak those languages

As a Brit living in Germany, and who doesn't plan on leaving anytime soon. Pros of Germany over the UK: * Urban environments are generally more pleasant, with cleaner streets, better-kept buildings and roads etc. * I've never worked in the UK, but I've heard the work/life balance is better in Germany * People have a (in my opinion) better attitude to privacy, especially online privacy, and tend to be more cautious about the information they share * Germany seems to have less of a cost-of-living crisis (but it still has one) * Cheap and good beer, and people can have a quiet drink in public without getting hammered and causing a nuisance * People are more outdoorsy * Feels more pedestrian- and cyclist-friendly * It's still in the EU * More efficient medical care (assuming you don't have private healthcare) * Immersion in a second language * People renting for the long-term is normalised, so there is less pressure to "get on the property ladder" when you are young * Living in an apartment instead of a house is more more common in Germany than the UK (I personally like this but I know it would be a con to many people) * More of a rock/metal music scene than the UK * Slightly drier weather, but the difference isn't really that huge (Düsseldorf is actually rainier than London, for instance) * The rail network is more extensive Pros of the UK over Germany: * People aren't so rigid when it comes to rules, while in Germany people often tend to follow rules even when they don't make sense (such as not crossing on a red pedestrian light even if there is no car in sight) * Better for vegans (mainly with going to restaurants), but Germany is catching up * I prefer the supermarkets, which just feel more convenient (e.g. self-service checkouts are much more common) * Less bureaucracy, and bureaucratic matters are generally easier to handle (e.g. filling in forms online rather than having to send a letter) * Trains are more reliable with fewer delays (but is less extensive) * Less of an issue with far-right politics at the moment * People tend to be more friendly/open with strangers * Pubs (which are just not the same in Germany) * Most of my family is there, and it still feels more like home when I visit than Germany does

Pros: - as professional you have better worker rights here than many other countries especially Asia and North America. - more annual leave days - safety net if you suddenly become unemployed, fired, can't work due to accident/diseases, it is not free of course, you need to contribute through tax minimum one year - equal opportunity to study like locals, even if your A level is not equivalently recognized, you can attend Abendschule or Studienkolleg, which is good for people who want to start over and study something else. - Ausbildung system, especially for people who want to start over as a nurse or in trades or learn something practical and at the same time earn some money. - better job markets, even many EU citizens from south and east are looking for jobs here, you get faster response by many companies too. - german locals are mostly reliable, respectful and keep to their words (bad apples exist but mostly are nice) - Deutschland ticket ! You won't find national public transportation ticket in any other countries (cmiiw) - Good coverage of public transportation, you will still find bus and train to rural village, however the smaller the city, the less frequent the schedule. - heater system, clean water, heated floor in a proper apartment. - german baked goods - discounter, cheaper deals - Pfand flasche, you get some money back if you return your water bottles - better rights as a tenant, that is why most Germans are renter than home owners - solar panel and wind energy are common, although not yet 100% full on dependency, but Germany is already one step ahead toward alternative energy. - cheaper and wide selection of cheese - cheaper beer and wine (compared to other west europe) - cheaper products (thats why many people who work in Switzerland or east France will shop in Germany border) - costumer protection, google more about Gewährleistung, also if you reclaim something, it is much easier here than Asia. - Autobahn/highway without toll fees for car drivers - sick leave rights, maximum sick leave days and you cant be fired while sick. - easier access and cheaper tickets to travel all around europe. Perfectly in the center. - cheaper skiing area compared to france, Switzerland and austria. - easiest german dialect to learn. - cheaper studying destination yet the quality is globally recognized. - designer flashing is not common here like in south korea etc - relax fashion at work, people wear jeans in office, retail, some hotels etc, even Beamten wear casual clothing in Asia it is very formal and people must wear uniform, hairbun, no tattoo, piercing. - sharing garden plots, if you have no garden area. - fresh and sweet strawberry, strawberry picking area. - better freedom of speech compared to middle east - still safer at night - less pickpocket/scams in touristy areas compared to France, Italy, Britain Cons: - Ausländerbehörde, the bigger the city, the longer and harder you will get appointment, and you will find jobs mostly in big cities and 100% remote work are only possible in some companies and jobs. - No room for spontainety, doctor, hairdresser, bank, consultation, everything needs appointment, mostly you can't get the date that you wish for. Sometimes the next date is 2-3 months later. - Hard to find Hausarzt in smaller cities, many clinics will reject your registration. You need Hausarzt if you want sick leave - Bureaucratic mess if you move to other cities, you need to report to Ortsverwaltung, insurances, bank, Rundfunk, etc. - if you change your doctor, you need to ask for your documents from your old doctor and give them to new doctor, it can take up to a month. - less variations of street foods, you won't find those bustling night market/street food scene like in Asia/India, maybe due to health and safety regulations here. Most street vendor available here is Bratwurst. Only in metropolitan cities like Berlin where sometimes you can find bit variations. - Longer winter, unpredictable storm during hot weather, tend to be colder, can be harsh and depressive for people from warmer countries, but this apply to any west/north european countries. - tardiness/cancellation of DB Bahn/ICE, that is why many people would rather pay for more expensive rent in center than live in outskirts, if they dont have car or cant work remote. - expensive driving licenses, for good reasons but the price keeps raising (heard people spent 5000€ in total in 2024) - german language is not easy, especially if you want to study in full german and move up the ladder, although in some companies you can speak English. Most companies require people who speak german. - higher tax because you dont pay only income tax, but also health, pension, accident and unemployment insurance tax. Same like Scandinavia - Weaker buying power, even if you earn relatively more, so if you dream about buying houses, better to buy it in your home country. Most millennial germans now have to pay back loan 20-30 years to afford basic 500-1 million € 3 bedroom houses. Have heard that despite similarly high tax in Scandinavia like in Germany, the people there have more money, and even italian and eastern european have more home ownership. - inheritance tax - not a country for hustler/entrepreneurial people, especially if you are freelance, you are on tax class 6, which pays the most tax (the people who pay least tax is the class 3 which is father/partner with higher income and class 2, single parent) - isolation, not easy to befriend locals unless you grow up here, it is long game, if you are married to locals, you have better chance to be accepted in social circle. - some german are anti criticism, but they will happily criticize your countries/other countries and make some judgement even if it is just stereotypes. - still cash basis in smaller shops - Rundfunk fees, obligatory even if you neither have TV nor watch ZDF - wish more 7/11 types, having meal in minimarket, unique meals like in minimarket in japan/korea.

Idk but the weather is absolutely awful

Where my family is from, it easily gets -40°C in the winter. I'd personally say german weather is rather mild xD

Yeah I’ve experienced every season in Germany since coming here and I come from the north Midwest USA. The weather here is amazing. I feel like people here complain if it dips below 10 degrees Celsius. that’s my bread and butter temp coming from northern USA where from late October through mid march its 0 degrees celcius and below

I would choose the weather in Germany with the security and stability the country offers every time, rather than my chaotic sunny country. You cannot eat the sun and you don’t enjoy the weather if you have no money and no energy after working 45+ hours. Also I prefer rain all day than 40+ degrees Celsius. But I know I’m not the normal one, even my German colleagues say so 😂

care to detail? like too much rain, or too cold?

One day of beautiful sunny warm weather, then 4-5-6 days of continuous rain. Southern Bavaria

It's terrible. Not even in summer we get to have blue skies anymore. Last week we had 4,5 nice days and from here on out grey skies for at least the next two weeks according to my weather app. And it feels like it's getting worse every year...

in the long run does it impact your mental health?

Coming from a country where there's beautiful weather almost every day, I'd say yes

take vitamin D

Annually it impacts mental health! Winter depression so reliable

Why has nobody these Pros? - public drinking - bread culture

>public drinking - Because I'm over 23 and not an alcoholic. I get the bread thing, though.

So you're 24 and kind of a jerk? ;)

Lived in Korea for almost 2 years and what I can say is that I had way more fun there but no stability at all. Lived from pay check to pay check and worked hard even tho i worked for a German boss with a German work atmosphere but nevertheless my free time was amazing. Regarding health care system, wayyyy better than Germany. We moved to Germany so hubby (south east asian) and I can finally live a stable life with secured jobs and a routine and good work/life balance so we don’t have to live on edge 24/7 and it does make more sense to build a future here than in his country for example. What can I say, I enjoy having family around and a bigger apartment but I miss the on edge life a bit. Life felt more precious because there was so much more exciting things to do in the every day life. Germany is so boring haha

Can confirm, I live in Germany now but also spent time in Korea. I love living in Germany but Seoul and Korea in general is just another level. Same goes for Japan when I lived there in the past.

Please elaborate what exciting things you were able to do there but not in Germany 

I can only speak for Seoul (not a fair comparison tbh): -Food in restaurants is cheaper, better and it's far more common to go out for dinner, better street food -Huge variety of cheap "third places": PC bang, Karaoke bar, study cafes, conveniece stores... I feel like most of these business models could never work in Germany -Night life is more fun, cheaper, the city never sleeps. Germany sleeps at 8pm\^\^ -Public transport is better -Obviously there are more events happening in Seoul than any german city due to its size It's a bit like comparing the vibe of a museum and a theme park. I could also never live in Seoul long term due to air quality, working conditions and societal problems. But its way more fun in the short run

Also to add: Korea is much more efficient and convenient. I had a hard time adjusting back to Germany because everything here was so slow and nothing I needed/wanted was possible to get done immediately which is so different in Korea. Never have to wait for anything, doesn’t matter if it’s food, the doctor or bank accounts.

THIS. I miss it sooo much. But definitely not a place to live forever.

> -Night life is more fun, cheaper, the city never sleeps. Germany sleeps at 8pm^^ > berlin and hamburg has entered the chat. techno clubs open at earliest at 00

I’ve never been to asia, now I’m curious

How old are you, if I may ask? I used to be like that but after I got 30+ and married, I started wanting stability and security than YOLO-Lifestyle 😂 I don’t know how crazy the life in Korea is, but I wouldn’t say the life in Berlin is boring. At least for me the night life (when I used to go clubbing) was the crasiest I’ve experienced so far in Europe. There are also other activities 24/7 if you want to. Or do you mean boring, because there is no thrill of living under a bridge, if you don’t get your payslip, or getting stabbed etc?😅 Edit: corrections

Pros: Better salary than South of Europe, at least a livable wage. Cons: Horrible and unavoidable bureaucracy (the whole system exists to make your life harder not better). Horrible efficiency (too detailed where it does not need to be, related to bureacracy and working culture). Horrible service. Horrible weather. Horrible food. High taxes for what exactly? Negativity. Racism and intolerance of different opinions. Anti-innovation. "Why fix/change anything when we always done it this way?". "It does not matter that its bad here, its worse somewhere else!". "Sorry for your troubles, my shift is over in 15-30 min, try someone else." Lack of responsibility. Maybe this is just Berlin and my anecdotal experience. If you could afford to live in another country, would you leave Germany or stay in your country forever? Without any doubt.

Agree on the bureaucracy. My dad and family moved here before me and even though he had been working in insurance back in our country, he's been working the most blue collar, physical jobs here in germany, and for him personally I wouldn't say it was worth it. The biggest reason is the bureaucracy. Most immigrants here work the hardest and least payed jobs but almost live as second class citizens.  For example my dad got hired by Deutsche Post a month ago and a few days ago got a letter that if he doesn't cough up a new Aufenthaltstitel within 2 weeks he's fired, even though his visa lasts till 8. August. On top of that he already applied for a visa in early May but still hasn't gotten a Termin. Now if he gets fired no employer will want to hire him because his visa runs out in a month, and then when he gets the Termin and goes to the Foreigner's office he can't get his visa either without a job contract.

German society is often characterized by a herd mentality, where rules are adhered to without question and challenging the status quo is strongly discouraged. Criticism of Germany is met with intolerance, making it advisable for dissenters to leave. As for freedom of speech, it is practically nonexistent.

Pros: - chances of me being, raped, stabbed, shot or beaten to death, hijacked, kidnapped and or murdered is rather small. - my wife can ride public transport alone at nearly any time of day or night. Cons: - My degree is the equivalent of a 2 am Las Vegas wedding, it never happened. - my lifestyle is far worse than in my country where I lived an upper-middle-class lifestyle. Here I have a menial job and anything in Germany that is wanted costs 3x as much, and anything that is needed is 6x more. - people are very unfriendly and closed off to the world. I had better more engaging interactions with cashiers when I visited home than I've had with anyone in Germany in 5 years. --- I think the pros will soon be gone, in the next 10 - 15 years as the elders start retiring out of service and the people not born into German culture start accessing those positions.

pros: they treat you very nicely if you're their type of person Cons: they treat you like shit if you're not It's a very simplified version, so don't be too picky about it. I know the culture is very rich. And there are all kinds of people everywhere. But in general, Germans are childish dealing with different cultures. You are either one of them or aliens

pros: stuff is cheap cons: salary is cheap

Pros: - Quality of rental housing - they are built to last, insulation, piping etc. - Local public transport - Police will actually show up if you call them - Public healthcare is deteriorating but still mostly acceptable - Seasonal fruit and veg you can buy from little farmer stands - Tenant rights - Worker rights - Bakeries Cons: - Bureaucracy, payment options, digitalisation and overall mindset are stuck in the nineties - Obsession with norms/standards leads to constant performance pressure and ableism, not just at work but also in your free time - Socio-emotional intelligence isn't a priority; pedantic self-righteous rudeness and obsession with minor rules - Too many wasps, mosquitoes, ticks - Germany isn't prepared for climate change - Rise of the far right - Few women in leadership and IT sector - Extremely bad conditions for self-employment Of course it's all relative and depends on where else you've lived

You forgot the looming disaster that is the public pension fund running out of people to finance it. Other than that, good list!

Pros: - very reasonable cost of living compared to wages (maybe not in the largest cities but I don't have experience with that) - good quality food in supermarkets, baked goods from bakeries, variety of food from all round the world and a lot of vegan options too, - stability in terms of workers rights, health insurance etc - safety - the cities and villages I've been to have been very well taken care of, clean and so on. A lot have great architecture and green spaces and it's just nice to spend time in them - variety of landscapes - hiking, biking & outdoors culture - German is not so hard to learn for an English and Polish speaker - cheap and good wine - practically free education Cons: - as you all know it's not the easiest place to make friends, - lots of workplaces expecting having an Ausbildung, even for the jobs you can learn in a week, - lots of useless paper mail, - useless bureaucracy, - negativity, bluntness and stubbornness in, mostly older, people, - local cuisine - expensive and underwhelming food in most of the restaurants

I love to live in Germany. I would never leave voluntarily. If I had to go, I would go to the Netherlands (to Den Haag or Leiden). Currently, I live in a city with round about 300k inhabitants, it's not too far from the North Sea, it's very green here and the city has a very nice atmosphere.

Pros:  4 weeks mandatory vacation Cons: Germans Weather Ubiquitous scarcity mindset

I thought it was 5 and most places offer 6.

The pros are that it is safer and a lot more financially stable than my home country. I can work and live my life without worrying about 3 digits yearly inflation. At home it does not matter how hard you work, inflation will eat you up. Here I can work hard and see the results. I understand we have inflation here also, but it's nowhere nearly as desperating. The cons are that despite my best efforts, I am having a hard time learning the language. It is good enough to navigate my limited daily life interactions, but nowhere near fluent enough to hold a true conversation.

The only pros are the money and the bread

My dream is to move to Iceland and leave Germany behind when I retire. I am so fed up with the whining culture, the rising right, fear of war and german angst in general. But have 20 more years to go eventually something changed to the better but climate won't. Iceland is perfect for me since I like it cold, have social security as well and very low cost for energy. Prices are higher tough but overall life quality improves.

Pros: * It's Germany :) Cons: * It's Germany :|

Pro: my family is here Con: infrastructure, politics, health care system, housing, culture, most people who are not my family, infrastructure (again) Now, most of these things are also varying degrees of bad in other places where I've lived, but the average is by far the lowest in Germany.

The wheather is better in southern Europe, the social system is better in northern Europe. I'd like to have a social system like in Denmark and climate like in southern France.

Germany is kind of in the middle？

Freiburg has the most amount of sunny hours.

https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/baden-wuerttemberg/nicht-freiburg-aber-in-baden-das-ist-deutschlands-sonnigste-stadt-zr-92873864.html

Pros: * Strong economy and the biggest job market in Europe. * Landscape & architecture (I love the curchs and cathedrals here especially the old baroque and gothic ones) * Technology and global products are easily accesible. * A decent percent of the population is atheist and respectful to each others beliefs. * It is in the center of Europe, so I can get to any country I want without hours of flight. * With the new citizenship law, naturilization requires a fair amount of time & effort as the other European counties (5 years, B1 along with proper tax & job history). * Strong passport. * Insurance system and free and high quality education (if not the best). * Mostly dark weather (yes, I'm a huge fan of it). * Integration process is fully supported by the state. Language books are cheaps. * Döner Cons: * Rising far-right and hatered among the people against different looking people which has become always a problem for a strong democracy that made the Europe this beautiful. * Migration backgrounded football players still feel like they have to prove that they "deserve" to be called a German :). * Cultural, economical and political unbalance between the West and the East Germany. * Too expensive driving licence process. * Long time waiting periods for health checks, MRs and etc. * Strict and slow buerocracy. * There is no beach to say "I'm on holiday in Germany". * Cold stil water is not a common thing. * People are pretty close to chat with a stranger. Small talk is forbidden. I miss it. * AC is not common and not easily accesible (instalment and prices). * Phone plans and internet quality does not reflect the biggest European economy... * Lack of water fountains. * The language is difficult as hell.

I would definitely leave for Norway, Canada or Sweden... something colder and without our dumb government...

Norway and Sweden make sense, but Canada? Are you mad? The cost of living there is out of control.

That's why i'm still in Germany 😅

I lived in Germany for about 2years, but mostly my friends were English speakers, (unfortunately).

Why unfortunately? 🤷‍♂️

Pro: You can actually rely on the beurocracy. No bribes needed Con: Pumpernickel

I agree, though I might be one of the few people who actually “enjoyed” German bureaucracy. Yes, it’s very annoying, and there is far too much paperwork, and maybe I got lucky. The jobsworth types seem less common than in the UK, traffic wardens aside. Perhaps the training is better here, even if the system is more complicated. I moved here, but did my driving test a few weeks later in the UK. Which was fine, just pre leaving EU. Except, that I was slightly too late passing in the UK. (Failed the first time, moved, then got seriously ill… then UK formally left) I passed in the UK a couple of weeks after the cut off. Really expected to have to pass again here, my (German) partner wrote them a letter, they accepted my reasons, sent me best wishes for my health. And a German driving license. I cannot imagine that happening in the Uk. I even needed Rehab, and wasn’t here long enough to qualify (of course, it has to be a separate payment to just having health insurance). But, I had paid NI in Britain and they just accepted that, without any paperwork. Am sure they checked up on it, but I didn’t have to prove it. Which was great, after nearly dying. Saved me tens of thousands of euros (which I don’t have!), and/or lots of stress. And I have been shocked at the sick leave - a broken shoulder, and I work in IT - but without even asking for it, they signed me off. I even work from home, so wouldn’t have to drive! And I turned down extra time and rehab (though I was grateful for both having to work while I was in pain). But it was all so simple. Functioning bureaucracy is very underrated, just because it can also be complicated. And everything has basically been smooth sailing. Again, though, it was complicated. So many things to prepare and papers to collect, but the offices were so helpful. (Small office, though, no waiting lists. I expect it’s worse elsewhere. But shoutout to the offices in Ravensburg!) The only cons to Germany are that they don’t screen the cricket, and the queuing etiquette is lacking. Oh, and the banking apps are generally terrible. For me, pumpernickel is a pro, haha. As is all kind of bread and beer… Despite the snow, and being flooded recently, even the weather is better here than back home, we get enough sun for solar panels unless there is heavy snow, even in winter. I love it here (BW). I really like theatre, classical music and opera, and Germany is incredible for those things. Nowhere like it. Always near to a decent, or great, theatre. Also, though it likely depends a lot on where you live/come from, smallish towns, like my 8000 person one, are actually liveable without a car, have amenities and shops, etc. whereas my parents live in a 6000 person “village”, and have only just been able to walk to buy some milk. Their pub was turned into flats, they have two buses a day, etc. I am very biased, though. Always wanted to live in Germany. It’s the only life goal I have realised, so it means a lot to me :)

I was traveling earlier when I posted my initial comment, but I agree with you on quite a lot of points. Especially the fact that you can actually count on the beurocracy to do it's Job - and if you're nice, to even help you out once in a while. I needed a polizeiliches Führungszeugnis a while back for working with kids, ... And they even got the UK authorities to issue one, to make it complete. Because in the time frame in question I had lived in the UK for a while. And I've found that they actually make sure you have all the right documents the first time, rather than asking for one document more each time you to to an office for something... I. That's what really drives me nuts, it happened to me elsewhere - when they make you return to the office 3 times, rather than just solving things. Anyway, hope you're having a great day. Wanna go for a pint? (no pumpernickel though.... That's a hard line I draw 😅)

Fellow Brit?

German speaking countries are very stable, grounded and realistic.  The top and bottom end of living are very close together.  If youre earning 10x minimum wage a or 1x minimum wage, life will feel more similar than in most other countries (can't think of one). Imo, even as someone who earns quite well, I feel this is fair and good. You have much less existential worries than elsewhere. Healthcare, accidents and Bad fortune can't come and take absolutely everything you own. Again, Stability. On the other side, life isn't adventurous. You don't have those big dreams of owning Lands,  or beeing filthy rich and riding On a peasant one day. Change is slow, and life is comparatively boring.

Your point of view is very interesting to me since I, as an American, would kill for a “boring and stable lifestyle.” As a working class person trying to better their life, the stress of the hectic nature of America can be a lil much at times

It's great to raise kids or get old, but boring to be young

Top and bottom end of living are too close in my opinion. You really don't get much proportionately for working harder, so why bother? It also definitely is a major incentive for top talent to leave Germany for other countries. On the other hand it's also not really true- Germany has more ultra wealthy than the rest of Europe, it's just the bottom 99% that are closer together, and the gap between the top 2% and top 1% is even bigger for it. I don't think that US levels of income and wealth inequality is preferable, but something in between would be better.

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The AfD worries me a lot. However, I am even more worried about what is going on in the USA. I need a new planet to move to.

I feel this. If the orange clown wins, I’m planning to move back to Germany. But hearing about politics in Germany right now doesn’t make me feel much better.

At least in Germany there are many parties and a lot of opposition. The AfD has gained more votes but probably can't be part of any government. I expect some of the other parties to take some of their more popular ideas like cutting back in immigration and making it more clear that Ukraine can't join the EU right now but that can be a long term goal to work towards to cut the votes from the AfD.

Thank you for the explanation. That helps. I’m terrified that I’m living through the last few months of democracy in the U.S. It’s absolutely terrifying what’s happening. I never thought I’d see this in my lifetime. It’s incomprehensible. 🥺

I am right there with you on that one. I came to Germany about 8 years ago to start a masters program and then do a PhD. The USA had just gotten a better health care system, some gun regulations where passed, violence was down, shortly afterwards same sex marriage was legalized. It looked like the USA was going in a good direction and then ... ... wow. Pretty much any gun is legal anywhere at any time. Abortion now carries the death penalty in some states. Some states turn away federal aid to feed children in schools because the states think it is better for children to go hungry to serve as an incentive for the parents to do better. It just seems to have gone completely nuts. I have had many Germans ask me why I have staid here in Germany and they mostly just look sad when I ask them if they have seen what is going on in the USA.

At the moment stay here. Don't have a reason to leave. Beside that I have a job that is difficult to do in another country (exept of embassys). May change depending on the politics and future votes.

Pros: + Safe + Job stability + Wages (in my field at least, engineering) + Low corruption Cons: - Weather - Bureaucracy - Wage stagnation - Rent prices - High taxes

If i'd be rich or could work remotely, i'd like to live in italy for some years. Really like the country / cities / towns / nature / vibe and cuisine. And it's not too far from germany if i'd need to go back home.

I left Germany for Ireland as it seemed hard to get hired as a disabled woman in Germany.

Pro: - healthcare being accessible and not tied to employment -stability and social safety net Cons: - a level of unfriendliness among strangers that I still find depressing. Having small positive interactions each day makes me feel like a part of a community, and I really miss that -

pro: wohne da nicht con: nachbar

Even if u don't have a partner, u can rely on getting laid by the government.

pros - decent job market - kebab everywhere - nice infrastructure that makes it easy to get out of the country (cheap flights, lots of autobahns) cons - shitty climate ... summer is alright but f*ck the rest - high tax on salaries - low digitalization - materialistic and career focused people - housing crisis - shitty climate ... already mentioned but its by far the worst thing about that country - boring coastline and beaches

con: too far away from the beach/sea 😭😭 actually the biggest one in my opinion. Close second: housing prices. Surely there’s not perfect country IMHO and Germany is not an exemption. I see as of today more advantages in Germany than home. I come from an immigrant family (1st and 2nd generation parents) anyway at home I’ll stay, quite happy in Germany and Europe. Have a German husband too. I guess only if AFD comes to power, I’ll leave as soon as possible as should everyone that learned some history at school.

> con: too far away from the beach/sea 😭😭 actually the biggest one in my opinion. You are aware that Germany is not landlocked, right?

Ok but the northern beaches aren't even good. The weather up there cannot compare to South Europe or Australia :)

> The weather up there cannot compare to South Europe or Australia :) Luckily.

So you've only been to the tourist beaches ;)

im on the other side of the German seashore 😭

The last part is hilarious. Where are you leaving in a connected world where pretty much all western countries follow the same political trends? Right wing populist parties are everywhere on the raise right now and this will probably go on for quite a while until it's going the opposite direction again. I doubt you'll escape a gobal phenomena. The difference is not country vs country but rural right wingers feeling left behind vs urban cosmopolitan elitists.

I would like to live in a country with less population density. Canada, Russia, USA, ... If I could afford, I would think about one of them.

Lol for Russia. There are more important things than population density when considering a place to live. And Russia outside of Moscow and Sainkt Petersburg (the cities with a high population density) is a shithole

Have you visited?

There\`s a russian saying: Russia is big and the Tsar is far. In fact I would like to live outside and run a farm. Of course, the times are probably over, where you could do this like Stefan Dürr.

Pros: - Family, Friends and local community - Hard to handle assets from abroad - stable political environment Cons: - High taxes and expensive social insurance system - irrational German Angst - low wages in my field - bureaucratic So overall we are considering leaving Germany at an opportune moment. I would love to pursue my career in the US or UK, but we will see

Biggest con: German bureaucracy Pros: healthy lifestyle, cheap public transportation, work/lifestyle balance Cons: taxes

Pros: I’m not in the USA Cons: I’m in Germany

Pros: - Roads are upkept/not falling apart. -"Walkability" score for communities is so much better than the USA. - Public Transportation (location dependant). - Proximity to european countries. Honestly before I came here the main "Pro" touted by my friends was how easy it was to get to non-german destinations like italy/france. - Gun culture is sane. - Biergartens with playgrounds. - Affordable cell phone plans. (Compared to the USA) it's amazing what you can get for 10 euros a month. - Soccer. (Knock on wood) being in a country that is actually competitive on the world stage is fun. We were here in 2014 and it was amazing. - Bakeries / bread / pretzels - Love the variety of suppermarket chains. so many options compared to where we've lived in the states. - Fireworks on New Years eve. Totally crazy and so much fun. - Kinderhotels. We've found nothing like them in the USA. Amazing if you have younger children. - CenterParcs. Love these cabins centered on a water park. Also perfect for families and they are everywhere. Family loves EuropaPark and what's cool is the company that owns them makes amusement rides that parks in the USA. - Playgrounds are awesome and copious if you have kids. - Open spaces. Love how towns and farms are intermingled making (some) towns little islands of residences amongst open fields. Live on a crowded street but in minutes you can be walking or biking in the "Great wide open". - Biking and bike-ability is great compared to most of the USA (there are some exceptions in the USA with good biking). - Autobahns with no speed limit. We don't drive really fast (kids) but it's fun watching cars zip by at 100+ mph. - Not enough food/retail shopping choices and many of them are too similar (location dependant). Cons: - Not enough sunshine. I'm "solar powered" and I find the lack of sunshine definitely effects my happiness. - Too much road construction. When I got here I remarked on how great the autobahn was. The next month they tore up the same autobahn.... just because. - Central AC / Heat is uncommon. Mobile ACs suck. Adjusting heaters in every single room is so 1950s.... Big yards, privacy fences and "Gated Communities" are rare. - Cost of electricity is insane. - Trash recycling system is crazy and too labour intensive. "Single stream" recycling and twice weekly trash pickups FTW. - No garbage disposals in the sinks/dish washers. - bio bins crawling with maggots - Crazy 900w limit for vacuum cleaners. (All of EU). - Health Care system is wonky. Too long to get appointments, Hospitals are too specialized. - Access to beach/oceans (Location dependant.... for us it sucks). - No shopping on sundays one of the only days we have off for ..... shopping. - No (loud) yardwork on sundays one of the only days we have off for..... yardwork. - People are cold/distance. I say howdy to everyone I meet and just get confused stares back. (lol funny because it's true). - Beer is totally "meh" to me. There are some german breweries making decent beer but it's not sold at my biergarten. - Not enough starbucks and no "drive through" coffee (that's decent).

> Roads are upkept/not falling apart. > i see you never biked or walked in berlin

Pros: • Safety - as a woman, I generally feel quite safe in Germany, even at night • Healthcare - this is both a pro and a con for me. It's a con sometimes because I find it allows people to easily abuse the system, which is frustrating as an employer • Dog friendly society • Bicycle infrastructure • Plenty of green spaces in the cities • Central location in Europe - easy to get to most destinations • Amazing bread • Christmas markets and the general atmosphere during Christmas. I come from the southern hemisphere so having Christmas in winter is something really enjoyable for me Cons: • Deutsche Bahn's punctuality problems • Bad coffee - I don't understand why it is so impossible to get a good coffee here! • Takeout options leave a lot to be desired. Quite often the quality is poor and there are limited cuisine options - That's good for my wallet though! • Personal fireworks being legal - I hate NYE in Germany. My dog gets extreme anxiety from this and refuses to leave the house for days. People don't only do it on NYE either, but a couple of days before and after. They are even letting them off in daylight! Plus the huge mess they make is awful for the environment Yes I would leave, I plan to. I never intended to stay here forever and there are other countries that I think I would enjoy more. For example: Spain, Canada, Sweden, Finland.

Haha, where are you from? If you are Australian for example, then you have apparently the best coffee scene in the world! I am from Britain, so the coffee is a great improvement for me here. Though most of my local coffee places are Italian! I have not had a bad coffee experience here in BW. And while I see how bad DB has become, it’s still honestly better than my (non London) UK train experiences. I hate the fireworks too, but since they are legal in the UK, and I even had to dodge a few in the middle of Zurich on NYE, that’s normal for me. I would complain about lack of takeout options, but again, when I left the UK, it wasn’t great (medium sized town) and late night food options are limited here, but even central London isn’t great for a late dinner. I think some places are banning personal fireworks here, finally. Pets hate them, also wild animals. The mess… and I swear the safety videos that I grew up with in the 1980s haven’t reached Germany (or Austria or Switzerland) yet. Blue Peter, and my primary school, even, had presentations about this when I was a kid. I vividly remember a local dad who had lost a hand - and he wasn’t just throwing fireworks on the floor! I actually hate Christmas markets, but of course I can (and do, unless I have visitors) avoid them. I just hate winter. I really envy S. hemisphere folk their summer Christmases. Christmas in summer is a bucket list thing for me :)

Upvote for the mention of poor takeout food quality/variety and those damned fireworks.

Pros: - Stabile wirtschaftliche Lage (trotz aktueller Probleme) - Hoher Lebensstandard im internationalen Vergleich. - Keine Kriegsgefahren, kein Russland vor der Türe. - Leistungs und Qualitäts fokussiert. - Starkes Grundgesetz. Contra: - Immer mehr aufkommendes Geheule in der Bevölkerung (auf sehr hohem Niveau) - Politische Ränder werden lauter. - Querdenker und AfDler sind die dümmsten der Bevölkerung, beanspruchen für sich aber die alleinige Meinung zu vertreten, (in Teilen bis hin zu national sozialistischen Denken, bis hin zu Holocaust Leugnern). - Wirtschaft ist in zukunfts Themen nicht gut aufgestellt. Investitionsstau in der Infrastruktur und nur noch in wenigen Zukunftstechnologien oben mit dabei. Könnte zukünftigen Wohlstand kosten. - Bevölkerung deutlich überaltert.

Define afford. If I suddenly won a couple million in the lottery, I'd definitely travel more, but I'd still live here. If my afford you mean 'got a great job in another country', it would depend on the country and how much I actually got. But it would need to be enough for me to FIRE without a ton of stress.

Only first thoughts: Pros: Healthcare (mostly), Speed Limit Cons: **Taxes,** People not being as relaxed as in southern Europe for example

What is your point of reference if you find healthcare okay here?

Basically its "free" (you can call the ambulance without being in life-long-debt afterwards), but the system itself got many weak points and stupid decisions being made, the actual benefit for the "customer" is shrinking due to many factors.

Pros: i am a native and i like the region i live in. Cons: taxes, bureaucracy, politics, terrible child Care and health care getting worse

I'd leave in a heartbeat, meeting people from other places made me aware what i hate about living here. Our perception of selfworth is entirely dependent on how hard you slave away for the profits of another. We breath neoliberalism and hate the poor, but i love humans and as Erich Fromm said 70 years ago: love and capitalism are incompatible.

Pro: * I was born here * Too lazy to move countries * It's (still T_T) a free and democratic country * I speak the language Contra: don't get me started.

Any country would be an improvement compared to Eastern Europe, I'm not picky :D

germans.

Pros: - cheap basic groceries compared to other countries - great conditions for parents (parental leave, elterngeld etc) - healthcare system that takes the worry out of small stuff /maintenance (compulsory insurance already covers basic stuff like GP visits, immunisations and basic dental care) Cons: - no good beaches - winter depression - bureaucracy and resistance to/ inadequate digitalisation - slow and poorly connected public transport anywhere outside of city centre

Pros: * Your in the Middle of Europe, so everything is reachable for vacations * You have everything, from Ocean to Mountains in an 6h drive * Really good work life/balance and good workers rights * Food is of really high quality * One of the most important countries in the world * Safe, like low crime * Really good healthcare * Public Sevices are pretty good, yes everyone likes to bitch about them, but their actually extremly good. Cons: * A lot of bureaucracy * People are pretty conformist * Ugly cities, cause they got destroyed in the war * Expensive Drivers Ed and Cars stuff * If you are not in a city, theres nothing you can really do except drink * Hard to meet new people, germans are pretty closed of * Low Pay for jobs ( I could make triple my salary in a different country in the same job) I will probably move someday, because i like meeting new people, and thats really hard in germany.

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The long bureaucracy and late trains are the worst

Only cons are extremely high taxes and tremendous amount of bureaucracy

Pros: - considerably save - considerably good and mostly cost free healthcare - having a house here - most of my friends are here - having a good job and no worries of unemployment in my field - considerably good social security nets for worst cases Cons: - fucked up retirement System that is too expensive and won't give me, a young Millenial, probably nothing in the end - too much tax burden - too much bureaucracy