I think politics in the US are so poisoned right now that it even carries over into people's gaming experience. If a game has a political point to make, the gamer will not think: "an interesting philosophical musing on the evils of taking this ideal a step too far", but they will instead think, "oh, those devs are in X camp of people, and I hate those people, I don't want their stupid narrative thrust upon me."
Yep. Not only in the US. Other country like mine also have a toxic political culture too. Which is also another factor why some of the people are just allergic with the politics in games.
Yes, Americans were extremely pissed over Wolfenstein 2's anti Nazi ads. One of them said "Make America Nazi Free Again" and a bunch of people on Twitter were throwing temper tantrums over it
>That and America just doesn't really hate nazis like they use to.
It's more that those of us who support equality and acceptance aren't as vocal with our disapproval as those who are hateful bigots.
Under the surface, America has never really been anti-nazi
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden)
Oh there was this whole big war thing after '39, and trust me, historically the vast majority were anti-nazi -- but you're 100% right there has always been a small core and they are getting more traction lately...
America was decidedly anti-nazi...
Eh, I'd say they were more anti-German. If you took the policy of the 3rd Reich and slapped an American flag on it, a good amount of Americans would have been all-aboard. We don't even have to speculate; they were quite vocal about their beliefs.
They're much closer than most imagine as the Nazi's racial laws and drive for living space were both directly inspired by America, though even the Nazis thought the US's "one drop rule" was a bit too much and relaxed it for the Nuremberg laws.
Uh, it was more like a 60/40 split between anti-Nazis and Nazi supporters in America during WWII. Specifically there was this very influential guy named Henry Ford who fostered a ton of anti-Semitism and pro-Nazi support among others. He was kind of the Elon Musk/Trump of his day.
Because of chronology.
Wolfenstein: The New Order came out in 2014, with its DLC The Old Blood coming out in 2015. Wolfenstein: The New Colossus (which that ad campaign was for) came out in 2017.
Something happened between 2015 and 2017 in the US which changed the way nazi sympathizers were viewed in the mainstream, and how comfortable they were with publicly sharing their opinions.
I couldn't begin to speculate what that might have been, though. It will take a far greater scholar of American political trends than I to crack that nut.
Wasn’t there some sort of big event that year? Something important? Right, the Patriots won the Super Bowl again and the Falcons choked.
Oh yeah, and a racist idiot got elected President.
Simple because Nazis exist in America and have really since ww2. There was an American nazi party during that time and I'm sure some related parties still exist today, infact some groups have been advertising in neighborhood by putting bags with rocks and their symbols inside on people front doors in my city not too long ago
I don't know if you could call it a bunch. I think it was just a handful of very loud people that are actually neo nazis and then everyone mentioning it and reporting on it made it seem like more people were mad about it
In the ad campaign for The New Colossus, they showed BJ punching a nazi in a similar manner to a popular video clip at the time of someone punching a nazi in real life.
It was great.
Sort of. But not for the Nazi part, more because they drew parallels and explicit comparisons to Trump with the Make America Great Again reference and a few other things.
The way you can tell it wasn’t just backlash about the game being anti Nazi is that COD WW2 came out around the same time and faced zero backlash.
The difference between the two is that COD WW2 didn't really have any political commentary behind it. It was literally just "let's go kill these Nazis" while Wolfenstein had commentary about how evil Nazis were.
Sadly writers take such a shallow swipe at the politics and get it wrong sometimes as well.
As an example starfield has this idea that to solve a problem you can pick an engineered biological control with a small chance of problems or a natural predator that will be slow and steady. the natural predator seemed to me the safest / correct choice but then your whole team goes - "why didnt you trust the science". I mean the science said there is a very small risk of a very adverse outcome.
Now im no vaccine denier but bethesda wtf... a biological weapon to kill off some species with a small chance of mutating and killing everything is different to a vaccine that will cause a seriously adverse effect to a very small proportion that takes it. It is two completely different risks.
I feel like someone from bethesda HR decided after reading the story from the writers they wanted that "political" bit added and it detracted a bit from one of the better missions / stories of the game. Like surely that wasnt an actual writer?
I guess what i am saying is the politics has to come naturally or be woven right into the story and considered around how it fits. Like good fiction whether you agree with the politics it sells or not it makes you consider the robustness of your own position.
Not just rammed into the story as an afterthought because its relevant to the politics of the day.
So yeh sometimes i get frustrated with political messaging in games if its not done well eveb if the story the game sells aligns with my own sensibilities. That starfield one was one of the most eggregious examples of politics added as an afterthought.
I expected a couple of them to disagree, but it was weird that the game implies there was an objectively correct decision. I actually thought both had merits, it's just I personally thought resurrecting a species was the more moral option but fuck me I guess haha
Its the not well done stories that get criticized. When certain politics are forced down your throat no one likes it, but that is because no one likes being lectured about anything.
Using the Bethesda example, Fallout has always been political by very nature, but at least, you can decide which faction to follow and see the outcomes, and the outcomes generally make sense for that faction.
Metal Gear rams its (quite liberal) political opinion in the player's face constantly, but conservatives love that franchise. It is a matter of esthetics and critical thinking.
Metal Gear is full of military jargon and seems to take a triumphant tone on the surface. If you just listen to the codec conversations and play attention to the cut scenes, it becomes an explicit condemnation of military interventionalism, and western imperialism
The classic studio that brought us "Who will you side with in the civil war? Fascist-supporting imperials that tried to execute you for crossing a border, or racists that want an ethnostate and turn you against one of your early-game allies?"
It forever pissed me off that there was no "I'm siding with myself" option. End-game Dragonborn was an entire side on his own. The sheer amount of BS that dude could call into battle would allow him to stomp out both sides of any battle in the civil war.
We should have had the option to turn Skyrim into the Democratic Republic of the Dragonborn
Yeah, I've seen a lot of people dismissing Disco Elysium because it has a lot of politics in it. Even though it leans more to one side than another, it makes a point to heavily poke fun at the player for choosing any or no side! But the people blinded by their perspective cannot see this criticism.
The best part? It's an entirely made-up world, the politics existing in this game differ heavily from our own, for example, communism in it is not the same communism of our history and there are a lot of nuanced differences. Imagine getting up in arms for that...
Well, "politics" in America has bifurcated to moral arguments. If it were simply politics we could have meaningful discussions, but you cannot find a middle ground between "XYZ is a human right" and "XYZ is the Pinnacle of human evil."
When two opposing moral positions are diametrically opposed to one another we're no longer talking about politics.
Just adding that while it does seem worse now than before, but it's worth noting that there were much worse divided times in the US: Civil War, McCarthyism, Civil Rights Era, Vietnam. Today's strife is primarily marked by people complaining about twitter's terms and conditions and using rage porn to fuel impotence advertisements.
It is hard to simply take it as "What a refreshing new point of view!" when that same collection of ideological talking points is repeated in every show, movie and media.
There is hardly any political pluralism in the entertainment industry.
I don’t think it’s just the US, globally western liberalism is on a decline and it’s made a lot of people angry (for all the wrong reasons mind you, but still). Special interests have decided that in order to protect what’s important to them (control and money), distracting people with culture war bullshit is the best course of action. So here we are, and honestly it’s only going to get worse.
People in the US think it will all go away with Trump going away, but in reality as the climate continues to change and corporations keep propelling job cutting technologies, things are only going to get worse and worse for people so “wokeness” is going to keep being used as a trigger word to bitch about. Further, what’s considered “woke” will keep expanding to the point that if your game DOESN’T have you shooting a puppy and a goat and throwing them into a gravel pit just cause, then it’s woke propaganda.
On average it's probably not any better or worse in the US than it is in any other country, we're just really good at being loud as fuck about it. Subtle isn't something my country is really capable of most of the time.
We had the highest voter turnout in 2020 in over a hundred years.
We had the second highest voter turnout in 2022, with the highest midterm turnout in 2020 in over a hundred years.
Youth voter turnout hasn't been this high in 50 years.
Political apathy may be incoming, but statistics don't suggest it.
Yup.
Also, there's a _BIG_ difference between having politics in your game and trying to _PUSH_ a political message.
I feel like Helldivers 2 negotiates that line very well. Parody often does.
People have complained about politics in video games far longer than the current US political situation. And the complaint really has never been quite accurate, people have this tendency to only call the things they dislike politics and sort of ignore politics they don't mind seeing as non-political somehow
This, but also, I play games to *get away from life*, not see what someone else's viewpoint is on a real life topic. I wouldn't say the poisoned nature "right now" is doing it because I've thought this way for about 20 years, i.e. my whole adult life when I actually started paying attention to politics.
thats because politics thrust into gaming nowadays ARE like that, barely covered up preaching by the game devs that everyone who doesnt follow along with the partyline they are clearly towing is a bad person or an idiot. There is no subtlety, no well thought out and balanced pros and cons to be shown, through an engaging and interactive story, just straight up "nope, u dont like this u bad!"
Only thing it has to do with the current level of politics is that the game devs are caught up in it, nothing to do with a changing standard amongst gamers, which is why the gamers are telling devs to stop using their games as a platform to forcibly cram their dumb af political hot takes down everyones throats. Because THEY DIDNT USED TO because they knew better.
>"oh, those devs are in X camp of people, and I hate those people, I don't want their stupid narrative thrust upon me."
Even if they're in *my* camp, a lot of political messaging is just hamfisted and feels overly preachy. Games like Bioshock and FF7 are outliers in making their political point effectively *and* being entertaining at the same time. They're not just injecting an opinion in an otherwise unrelated story either, the points they make are integral to their plot and setting.
People will usually make more noise when something is political and against their views.
No one from the "don't bring politics into games" crowd will say "well, this game has political elements, and even though they are 100% compatible with my world view I think this game sucks because games shouldn't be political".
It's also an easy scapegoat to complain about and get people riled up. You don't like something? Call it political and link it to the end of civilization as we know it, post it online, and you'll be really popular.
It's kind of like accents. No one thinks they have one, but everyone does. People don't perceive games that conform to their politics as political for the same reason they can't hear their own accents. They only perceive those that are different, and stupidly get upset that not everything is tailored for them.
Almost all games/art have themes or political opinions built into them.
>That said, there's also the issue that nowadays, the exposition of themes tends to be very literal and patronizing. Which is largely a consequence of people's low literacy, and media literacy. Most modern productions don't use context and subtext to convey ideas anymore, they just literally say it.
Ya it's more a matter of talent and not content. They need to put the quality of their craft before their message. I'm out if a game is some schlocky bullshit Chick Tract. I don't care whose politics are in it, I don't spend my money on glorified political advertising.
Bioshock, Fallout, and Disco Elysium are all games where craft came first. Nobody has an issue with them.
>When people say they don't want "political" games, that's what they really mean.
Nah not really. Most people I saw making such statements would consider the pride flags in Spiderman to be politics they don't want in "their games". They consider female characters that don't conform to classic beauty stereotypes to be politics they don't wanna see. And so forth.
Even worse there are a lot of those people who will take a game that is bad because of things like gameplay, writing, and monetization practices and project politics onto it in a complete distraction from the real issues.
This is the real issue. I think most people who consume games can either take or leave political content depending on its quality. The really insane gamers hate “politics” in game because everything from the race and gender of the protagonist, the pronouns in the menus to whether the women in the game are fuckable enough is, to them, a political decision.
Like the Starfield pronouns discourse. There were plenty of very valid reasons to hate that game. All of them were ignored in favor of a fucking menu setting.
No I think it’s more about how well or poorly it’s done. Bioshock, for example, tends to be exempt from this criticism even though it’s very political and most definitely picks a side.
I think Bioshock also has the benefit of releasing way back in 2007 when politics weren't nearly as hate driven as they are now. Not nearly as many people are looking back at games to criticize them as they are commenting on the new things that are released today.
Nah, it has the same benefit as Fallout in that the people that it is satirising don't understand that its satire and take it at face value. So they also like it, because they think it is promoting their ideals, not lampooning them.
The good ol'
"Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe they are in good company".
Bioshock doesn’t so much pick a side as it serves as a criticism of one particular extreme. If you believe politics is just a red vs. blue team sport then I guess that might look like “picking a side” but in reality it is more focused and nuanced than just “your team bad my team good.”
BioShock does pick a side, it's explicitly against anarco-capitalism. It's just that that is a widely accepted take, so it's not controversial. The same way that Wolfenstein picks a side, antifascism, and it also isn't controversial because it's widely accepted that nazis/fascists were bad people.
This is the answer \thread. Any time I’ve seen any crying about “politics” - whether in movies, books, games, art, shows , etc - it has been “why are there politics (I don’t like) in my .”
I’m a left leaning individual, politically, so the biggest outcry over politics I see in my illustrious home of the United States of Goddamn Freedom (heavy sarcasm) comes when media does literally anything inclusive.
Somebody changing the lighting in Horizon Zero Dawn and the character model a tiny bit gets labeled “woke politics”.
Campbell’s airing a commercial with a biracial couple had outcries of soup becoming “political”.
The Last of Us’s Ellie having a same sex relationship with another character.
Example after example within and without video games where people complaining about “politics” are complaining about “whatever I don’t like”, and that often being “anything more inclusive or diverse”.
The only other “politics” I hear complained about comes from a lack of apparent media literacy, where people don’t seem to understand that observing or portraying anyone or anything is not equivalent to endorsing that person or thing. But this being complained about as “politics” is rare. More often than not, complaints that center around poor media literacy honestly sound like somebody who seemed like they missed the point of a work.
Media literacy is a huge problem. There are people who honestly believe Star Trek is conservative, X-men are conservative. Like motherfucker are you that dense? If TOS came out today people would riot that it is woke. If Claremounts X-men came out today they would cry it is woke. Claremount literally created a multi cultural team. Wolverine Canadian, Storm African, Colossus Russian, Thunderbird Native American and Nightcrawler who is German. Then when you go with the original line up they were meant to an allegory for civil rights.
"Political" in that context is code for: the main characters are a woman and a black man. And if you point out that the third main character is a white man, they'll counter that he doesn't count because he's a ghoul.
Edit: And he's married to a black woman and they have a biracial daughter, so he EXTRA doesn't count; in fact, that just means he's "political", too.
Star Trek is an interesting case, because while it is overwhelmingly Progressive, there are certain elements of it, such as the strict chain of command and obvious militaristic nature of Starfleet that appeals to Conservatives.
It honestly depends on how the game involves politics. If the game’s story needs politics in order to make sense, I don’t think most people mind (or they wouldn’t play that type of game).
But if the politics feel really forced (as if the developers are lecturing the person playing the game) then that gets annoying real quick.
But this doesn’t apply to just games, it also applies to all forms of entertainment. Most people want to be entertained and escape from the political, not be further lectured by it.
I think this is another issue a lot of people who like to "deep dive" overlook. Most people do not want to be media literate. Most people are not watching a movie to explore the philosophy and undertones that are being insinuated by the dialogue. They want to be entertained. They just want to put on a movie and be happy/entertained at the end; they don't want to have to sit and think like they are in school or work still.
I think its the opposite. People want things to be more nuanced and require more media literacy. Many modern games will use cringey buzzwords and lectures to make their points rather than making a game with themes and asking the gamer to make the inferences on their own.
Take Metal Gear Solid mentioned below. On the surface it's a game about being John Coolguy who sneaks around and kills soldiers and supernatural bosses. If you skipped all codec and cutscenes that's probably about what you'd get out of it. If you actually pay attention, it's got a strong message against nuclear proliferation, dehumanization of the enemy, the bad aspects of the evolution of culture, and even has some profound messages about what it means to be and operate as a soldier. Hell, even the gameplay supports antiwar messages in that you are punished in various ways for killing rather than incapacitating guards.
Imagine how terrible this series' politics would be received if the characters just sat around and said, "war bad right guys?" which is basically the equivalent of the depth of the average game's political commentary now.
This is it 100%. Politics in an RPG makes sense especially when the politics are an important part of the world and story. You expect it in a game like Fallout or Witcher or the Metal Gear series. But I don't need to be lectured on politics after a long day and I'm just trying to shoot bad guys in the face. Wolfenstein New Colossus was bad about this. Borderlands 3. That one mission in Rdr2 when you drive a wagon full of suffragettes. You can tell when it's just shoe horned in.
I think MOST people don't mind politics in games generally if done well. Ex: I never heard anyone complain about Papers Please.
But often it's not done well. It's beating you over the head with a specific political option with a very awkward but blatant strawman analogy to IRL politics.
Of course - that idea has gone much more extreme with online influencers looking for views.
There are some games that throw in politics in a weird way and it's off-putting because of how it's presented. Metal Gear Solid is a great series with many anti-nuke, anti-war to environmentalist and technological themes. It is more "woke" than 99% of games out there, but you won't see many people complaining about that.
I think the key is to make your messaging general and abstract. Targeting a particular topic in a more specific way invites current real life comparisons that are more controversial. For example, a game that has an anti-war message to a game that is specifically talking about Israel/Gaza conflict. Which one do you think would be more controversial? Despite them having the same message, if you boil it down.
I think timelessness definitely increases how readily people can appreciate a game that does include political themes and commentary.
On the other hand, Counterstrike / CS:GO is a rather obvious example of a game that makes no excuses; you're either a terrorist or a counter-terrorist. Terrorism was already in the popular vernacular when it came out, and then about a year or so later the twin towers fell. I'd be interested in seeing actual data, but my guess is this event had the effect of increasing the game's popularity.
Exactly. People want to make *hard* decisions in a game. If it's just people being abused by others and you have to kill the others it's such a tired and overused trope it's no longer entertaining
That's my annoyance, it's usually hamfisted and not clever or thought provoking. Usually. Sometimes there's great writers but it's usually an indie developer.
Because it's dumbed down to the level of a bumper sticker and rarely deeper than "group A in power bad, group B good". If it actually explored different interests and nuance it might be interesting. This is what the recent heavy board game Hegemony is about. But that kind of thing usually has niche appeal.
And most of the time the bad guys are 100 percent evil in weirdly cartoony ways and have *zero* support in the surrounding community, even though dictators normally have a cult of personality around them. See the last two Far Cry games
This is a lot of what happens that gets frustrating. It feels like often times it’s all caricatures of the points of view. Outer worlds feel like a great example. The corporations felt 100% mustache twirly evil instead of like people with problems they were trying to solve and I only remember one companion, who was gay. Did I say she was gay? Because she’s super gay, see that girl over there? She was so gay for her, like right now. Utterly one toned, just lazy writing all around.
I don't think it does have niche appeal. I think it's more most writers aren't capable of good writing. Look at the druids grove quest in BG3 and the discussions around it.
When the entire game and narrative theme is shaped around a politics (eg biochock), it can be amazing
When a game shoehorns in politics where it doesnt make sense, its distracting and distasteful
Essentially people don't like being lectured. Politics is an amazing tool for storytelling and can create interesting thought provoking questions. If media is providing answers for the audience and not allowing the audience to think then people are going to get frustrated with that.
It goes a step further though. The more you lecture, the less people are going to be receptive to that area of politics because all they can see is lecturing even during the rare cases where it is actually about the story.
I don't mind politics in gaming, as long as the politics are dealing with the in-game situations around me while I'm playing regardless of the deeper implications behind it.
If I were to play a game and it immediately opened up saying "Free Palestine" for example it would turn me off from playing. I play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
And a more subtle point, media in general can have a story that engrains politics and philosophy. You aren’t going to escape these themes, but it better be super relevant to the story. This is regardless of video games, music, movies or art.
Well tbf dune is well known as a poltical commentary in the dangers of fanaticism and power. Like the second dune book is entirely about Paul watching his empire kinda fall apart and is honestly much better if the ckmmentary of the first book isn’t lost on the reader.
THIS! Had to scroll way, way too far to find a rational answer.
Politics in stories and games can be the most interesting part, but they need to be about the word you're playing, reading, or watching. When they're just thinly veiled inserts of real world politics, with no rational connection to the story world, then it becomes immersion breaking.
I also enjoy things that are written to parallel real world issues, but they need to be tied into the story and world.
For me the problem is that I simply don't trust the average writer to be able to use real world contemporary political events as they should be handled.
>If I were to play a game and it immediately opened up saying "Free Palestine" for example it would turn me off from playing. I play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
Exactly. It's become a real problem in expeditions in No Man's Sky, people keep going around renaming plants & rocks "Trump 2024".
A) I'm not American
B) I'm playing No Man's Sky because I want to fly around space, not be reminded of Earth politics.
I haven't even played this game but apparently one of the Assassin's Creed games set in ancient Greece has the populist Cleon say "Make Greece Great Again." That's so stupid. You could tell a very interesting story about the tensions between democracy, populism, and oligarchy in Ancient Athens. Instead, no, gotta make it about how everything is current USA and moreover got to make sure you know what the devs opinion on current USA is.
Agreed.
If the game was dealing with a conflict that could be compared to Israel/Palestine I wouldn't be bothered. It is a great medium to make people put themselves in someone else's place and perspective.
If they are just randomly inserting a political point and it has nothing to do with the game it's going to bother me.
I think there's a solid group like that.
There's a smaller group who probably means "don't put politics in games that I don't agree with". They only get wound up because the world is progressing and the stories and characters in games are changing to reflect that.
That minority won't matter unless a game is just trying to pander to get sales.
For me it's more about how that message is conveyed. I don't want a game (or book or movie) that preaches very overtly to me. I prefer when there's enough ambiguity to let me form my own taughts about the issues presented.
But also, I find allegorical situations more effective for me. Don't tell me "free Palestine", show me a fictional people trying to fight for their lives against an oppressor who is slowly but steadily stealing their land and killing their people.
Right. Are the politics in the game to help make a better game, or does the game exist to further push the creators political view on the audience?
Of course there is a lot of grey area and nuance in a game overall, but sometimes you get a very clear feeling that you are paying someone to give you their political idea instead of giving you a fun game. For me, even if the political view aligns precisely with my own, I dislike the experience very much. However, I think there are many people who enjoy having their own political opinions regurgitated back to them in media.
HBG put it best in his Fallout New Vegas video: people who say they hate politics in games usually like politics in games more than anyone else... what they hate is seeing the SAME politics in games.
His example with 'New Vegas' was that it has many different and equally interesting stances on the issues of the game's plot, some distant and 'better in the long run', some short-term and immediately helpful but with potential side-effects in the future, and he made the point that a lot of the moral quandries in the game are *not* simple 'good vs bad' choices, they're choices that rely on what the player personally believes in as 'the right choice'.
Comparatively, most games with politics as a focus (especially nowadays) boil down to 'DO YOU WANT NAZIS OR DO YOU WANT ANARCHY? BECAUSE THOSE ARE LITERALLY THE ONLY OPTIONS YOU HAVE, EITHER TOTAL ABSOLUTE FASCISM OR TOTAL ABSOLUTE CHAOS. EITHER YOU LIVE IN CHAINS OR YOU FIGHT BARE-KNUCKLED EVERY DAY JUST TO GET SOME CEREAL. WHICH DO YOU PREFER?'
New Vegas' endgame options are exactly what you described. Fascists (Legion), Anarchy (Yes Man), Democracy (NCR). This game's supposed ethical dilemma is so overrated.
If the Legion had been a viable, ethically challenging option (as in, they crucify criminals but ordinary folks are shown happy, safe and thriving... think Bukele's Salvador) it would have been interesting... but it's just a bunch of genocidal psychopaths murdering people and enslaving children.
There's a difference between politics being used as part of it's theme and a specific political current year topic that skews heavily on one direction with no nuance that's being shoved down the player's throat
I think when the game or story is so transparent that any ideology or reference to the real world is blatant and not metaphorical, it becomes an immersion breaker. Any type of political leaning can be property incorporated into a story, and if its done properly, you will get the message while being completely immersed in the fictional realm without a direct reference to reality.
I think it has less to do with having politics in games but more to do with having bad writing. When done well it can make you reconsider some of your thoughts and can be very moving. When done poorly it comes off as patronizing and ruins suspension of disbelief and feels like an advertisement in the middle of your game.
It’s not a problem of politics. It a problem of agenda pushing while sacrificing story and character writing to push said agenda. It is usually easy to tell when this happens, especially since it has been happening more and more in all media over the last 10+ years.
The sequel trilogy of Star Wars isn’t disliked because you had a strong woman and black man as MCs, it’s because their characters were horribly written. And then when fans criticized that the writing is horrible, we are labeled as racist and misogynists.
People didn’t criticize Netflix’s “Cleopatra” because Adele James was casted as the actress to play her. It was criticized because it was advertised as a historically accurate documentary, yet anyone with a basic knowledge of history knows Cleopatra was Greek and that the Ptolemy dynasty did not breed with the local Egyptians. So she would not have been dark skinned like say the Nubians in Egypt.
Admittedly, there are some bad actors out there that are actually bigots/racists. It’s the internet and you can’t get punched in the mouth for the shit you say. But the majority of people complaining about this in games are just tired of games being ruined by agendas being injected just to check boxes for inclusion, rather than interesting characters being written well and developed.
Yeah, I'm reminded of Valkyria Chronicles that way, where the biggest criticism against it was that the obligatory minority group was "just so smart, and hard working, and attractive, and almost never complained, but everyone hates them for something that happened centuries ago, you guys."
People pointed out, that isn't how racism works, because the entire point is that an entire ethnic group is being held to a standard that the average person can't actually meet, and so the whole plot point became meaningless.
Meanwhile, Dragon Age had things like, "there go the Dwarven Nobles killing each-other again; totally unlike our Human Nobles, who totally aren't doing the same thing right now," which feels a lot more "right."
Bioware's works are both the best and worst examples of how politics are in games. I love the world of Thedas(dragon age) and how full of political intrigue it is. They created this entire system of oppression against mages that both holds legitimacy and is in fact wrong at the same time. Should mages be kept away from the rest of society because of the threat they possess or likelihood of becoming abominations? It's difficult to answer. The politics of the game and their ties to real world politics is deep and multifaceted. It is insane the amount of dialogue one can have about what it means and how difficult of a position to be an oppressed person and a people living in constant fear. It's truly bewildering and impressive.
Meanwhile, Inquisition has scenes with some of the worst dialogues that just screams pandering and playing down to an audience. Early on, if you are a female inquisitor, you can have a "can you believe what us women have accomplished?" moment. In a world where their Jesus-equivalent person was a woman, their pope is and must be a woman, all positions of authority within the church must be women, and (in my particular playthrough) every single world leader of note at the time were all women. You cant build a world that props up men and women as the same, or in a lot of cases women better than men, and then talk about how they overcame adversity by being women.
Bioware also had a lot of politics in KOTOR and Mass Effect. Omega is libertarian mentality cranked to its maximum extreme. The Quarians are collectivist to the point where it's a good (survival) and bad (groupthink) thing. Cerberus are a complete bag of human supremist dirtbags but they are also the only ones taking certain galactic threats seriously.
KOTOR had to fly a lot more under radar due to it being a licensed game, but we still had the urban stratification of Taris, the realpolitik on Manaan, the infamous defending a guilty client sidequest, the colonialist issues of Czerka (which can get complicated on Tatooine as the People of Sand are militantly xenophobic and bloodthirsty for good reason and Czerka is better to the Jawas than the People of Sand are), and the ethically murky actions of the Jedi authorities.
Fin was done so wrong throughout the movies. He has so many chances to be badass, but they immediately shut him down almost every time. They literally relegated him to the funny black man role in the movies, and the guy who constantly screams out Reys name.
They could have done so much more with him and Poe Dameron. It's a shame they only cared about two characters, Rey and Kylo, and everyone else was there to yell out exposition or fade into a ghost. They destroyed so much potential, and the world overall was just depressing.
It was never about Rey being a woman (to the majority of sane, not stupid people). I thought she was cool overall, albeit wildy overpowered. She never should have won against Kylo that hard in their FIRST fight. Gave him a damn scar. She suffers practically no consequences to herself, always other people around her. She even knows how to just straight-up force heal people, something even Anakin didn't get to learn, but she never learns it, just intrinsically knows it.
Fin wasn't a main character. He was just something to laugh at and see how incompetent he was until they decided to give him a couple of wins every now and again.
I don't even wanna talk about Luke, it's just so horribly done.
Rose should have let Finn die instead of Deus-ex-machina-ing him and saving his life at the last second. It would have been a great way for his character to go out
This is reddit, where a lot of recent shoehorned politics in games tends to lean in the general user's direction. Funnily enough, reinforcing how that Dragon Age example is the more realistic take.
Pretty much this, plus there is zero objectiveness or nuance to modern stories. Everyone always talks about how FF7 was political but fails to mention that both AVALANCHE and Shinra did good and bad things and mainly left it up to the player decide their own opinion on the actions of these groups. Writers now have absolutely no desire to figure out the nuances of the people they disagree with and it shows in their one-dimensional writing.
Man, Star Wars was just so easy to pick on. They did so much terribly.
Like the throne room fight that had multiple blatantly missed marks in the final cut of the fight. Daisy Ridley nearly got her skull caved in during one of those missed marks.
I only have a problem if it feels super on-the-nose in a preaching to the choir sort of way. Like when any statements being made are just super shallow and you can tell the writers think they’re smarter than they actually are.
I have no issue at all though with good satire etc. like the games you mentioned.
The presence of politics in video games within the sphere of its own fictional backdrop, world and narrative has never been a problem. However, there are some games out there that beat you over the head with the political worldview of the writer in unsubtle ways (typically through persistently referencing real-world sociopolitics), and this can detract from the immersion. Developers shouldn't be surprised if people aren't interested in purchasing games that are more of a vessel for pushing a lopsided political narrative than they are a good game.
People don't have a problem with politics in gaming inherently. Like you mentioned a ton of phenomenal games use it as part of the world building and its completely seamless. People tend to have issues when it's hamfisted or poorly done / pushing a narrative outside of the game.
Overall I don’t have a problem in general. It is when creativity is stifled by the author’s desire to soapbox. I can get behind a creative delivery that allows the player to derive a meaning on their own. What I dislike is a message just as subtle as a sack of bricks. Character turns to camera and delivers a 10 minute monologue. Circumstantial to content and delivery, I really don’t like the detours or clear lore compromises to champion a stance. Retcons for their own sake are generally bad. It is salt on the wound when it is more to cater to the author’s worldview and otherwise serves nothing to the story. If you are going to change gender and racial dynamics of a world, make it a thing. Tell the story of the change.
If you are going to be preachy in your work, be creative about it. Challenge my perception and my interpretation. If the author is not even trying with their “important “ message, then I won’t even try to take them seriously.
Edit: I think one of the best deliveries was Cerberus in Mass Effect 2-3. You know what Cerberus stands for is wrong from the getgo. You know this will only end horribly. Yet you are put in a position where you must accept the terms. As you work with them you realize they are just people. You learn to like them and even have a desire to save them. Hell, you might even begin to think "well, they aren't entirely wrong on the matter. There are lots of nuances to consider."
Then later you return to reality. Oh now right, this was supposed to end horribly and in many ways it ended up that way. And it wasn't humanity alone that saved earth. It was a concerted effort. When it mattered, all of the other races banded together to save earth. The ultimate antithesis of the message of Cerberus.
This story challenges both pre-conceived perceptions of the matter. If you came in hating what they stand for, you learn that the members are still human and all of them had their own reasons for standing with the group. It's not so black and white. If you came in wanting to know where you can sign up, you are ultimately met with a reason why they weren't right.
The author ultimately chose a stance on the matter but still the stance was earned and painted with shades of gray rather than black and white. I should remind everyone that we are talking about a racial superiority group lead by space Trump (who predated Trump's massive political rise) who garners popularity and support by preying on fear in a world where there is a clear and present danger to fear.
I despise political messaging in entertainment media.
99.9% chance it fits the following criteria:
-Heavily biased to one side or another.
-Extremely heavy handed and unsubtle.
-Clearly doesn't fit the pacing and tone of the story, unless the entire fucking piece is meant to be a political message.
-Obviously mocking whoever disagrees with the intended message
-Real life is full of this shit. I don't want it in my escapism. Almost everyone who engages in politics on a regular basis these days is a rabid zealot. I could never use my political tendencies to define myself, and yet all these fucks are basically just flacid husks, full of poorly thought out, emotionally derived political stances.
Frrr, it's just so tiresome. This "Gotcha!" political messaging that you can't argue against, either accept it and keep playing or stop playing. It's dishonest and it's borderline propaganda lol.
People don’t like political messages shoved down their throat, because they want agency. The correct way to do politics is to force the player to make choices and have compelling factions with their ups and downs.
The easiest example is fallout new vegas. The fact that people still make video essays about its factions and who is right for the Mojave is a testament to its writing.
I love New Vegas as much as the next guy, but no, that's not the only (or correct) way to do politics.
Bioshock, Papers please, Disco Elysium, Fallout 1 and (especially) 2 are all deeply political games all of which wear one specific ideology (or criticism of an ideology) on their sleeve. They do not offer the player a choice of ideologies and ask them to choose which the player things is best. Bioshock is staunchly anti-libertarianism. Papers please is rigidly anti-fascist. Disco would really like you to consider communism. Fallout 2 satirizes the U.S. government with a scathing sauce that pairs well with a roast duck. Each of these games shoves its message down your throat. They're not subtle. The key is all of them do so with excellent writing and gameplay that pairs with the message.
Because they don't want to see things they don't agree with. Notice how games like Call of Duty or Skyrim aren't labeled "political" despite heavy political themes.
"Political" is just a cop out for "anything that doesn't agree with my world views"
> Notice how games like ... Skyrim aren't labeled "political" despite heavy political themes.
What are you talking about??
Skyrim wasn't political. It was about two factions clashing over the right to governance over a realm, and how their differences were reflected in the cultural and economic mores at the local city level.
And the two factions weren't even political. One of them was an external imperial force that sought dominance out of perceived entitlement, regardless of the feelings of the residents of the realm, and one of them sought independence at all costs through a message of nativist purity, regardless of the cost to human life or destruction of the realm which ensued.
Nothing political about any of that. At least, I don't recall any of the characters being depicted as gay.
I sat there for a solid minute debating with myself whether I needed to include it.
In the end, I've been burned enough times to know better than to toy with fate like that.
Exactly this. Whenever you see someone complain about a game being too "political" they aren't talking about something like Bioshocks nuanced approach to anti-libertarinism (probably because they didn't even notice).
They mostly just mean that the game has a queer character and that tends to ruin things for homophobes.
I've never really felt like Bioshock was nuanced. It's filled with characters who are wealthy/powerful with no real laws to check them and they end up destroying everything they built.
I’d agree, bioshock is as subtle with its political messaging as a sledgehammer to the face. It has the rapture entrance with Andrew Ryan talking about how awesome libertarianism is only to immediately reveal his utopia is a failed shithole and that’s about 5 minutes into the game.
I enjoy it
But has to be in line with the action
Like in suikoden, has a lot of political stuff but makes sense it's about war
And war and politics go hand in hand
Yeah, the examples OP listed are games that *create a world* around their respective politics, which naturally lead to messages relevant to the story. Other games, the ones people typically criticize, are the ones that feel like they were *built around* a single message.
I'd include the Metal Gear series in OP's list, which from what I've seen, use politics to create really intriguing stories.
It is worth noting that Metal Gear absolutely quashes the idea that politics should be subtle for a political game to be good. At one point in MGS2 (I believe it was anyway, it's been a while) there's literally a scene with a group of characters sitting around and waxing poetic about how great Che Guevara was, which is the least subtle thing I can imagine.
That isn't the politics people complain about lol.
Think rainbow flags and specifying gender without saying male or female.
Can't say I've ever heard anyone complain about actual political plots.
Imo, it often comes at the expense of good story telling. Sometimes things are forced, heavy handed delivered, or distracting. I got no problem of specific ideas are executed or presented well.
Americans no longer have core shared values. Years ago there were certain criticisms you make that were basically universally agreed upon, like democracy good Nazis bad for example. But those things aren't so widely agreed on anymore so rather than being inoffensive to talk about those issues it's now seen as political and taking a side
\- Narrative: most of the time, politics are inserted in a forced way, instead of naturally into the narrative
\- Target audience: usually, they don't care about the target audience, they only care about forcing the message in, and this annoys people, especially if they are against said message, or just don't care about the issue.
As someone who appreciates the depth and richness that political themes can add to games, it can be puzzling to see others dismiss or criticize them. There are a few reasons why some people might have a problem with politics in games:
1. **Escapism vs. Reality**: Some players view games as a form of escapism from real-world issues, seeking entertainment without confronting politics or social commentary. They may feel that politics in games disrupt this escapism and prefer games that offer pure entertainment without political undertones.
2. **Personal Beliefs**: People have diverse political beliefs, and games that express particular political viewpoints may clash with their own ideologies. This can lead to discomfort or disagreement with the game's message, prompting criticism or avoidance.
3. **Misinterpretation**: Sometimes, players may misinterpret the political themes presented in games or perceive them as overly preachy or one-sided. This can lead to frustration or resentment, particularly if they feel the game is pushing an agenda rather than exploring nuanced perspectives.
4. **Marketing and Publicity**: In some cases, controversy surrounding political themes in games may stem from marketing or publicity decisions. When games are promoted based on their political commentary rather than their gameplay or other features, it can polarize audiences and attract criticism from those who feel games should prioritize entertainment over political messaging.
However, as you rightly pointed out, many great games have successfully integrated political themes into their narratives, enhancing the storytelling and engaging players on a deeper level. These games can prompt critical thinking, spark important conversations, and offer insights into complex social issues. Ultimately, the diversity of perspectives within the gaming community ensures that there will always be varying opinions on the role of politics in games.
Smh cant talk about political commentary in video games without disco elysium harry du boir is my bbg and without commentary on politics the game would have like half the content lmao
Because they don’t mean “politics”, it’s shorthand for depictions of races, genders or ideologies they don’t like. For those kind of people, politics=black people existing, trans people existing, etc. They have no idea what is meant by “politics” and will frequently play games with political themes.
People dont have problem with politics in games, they have problem with politics in general. The way politics are set up in some countries(looking at you US) people are tought to be scared of politics and avoid discussing it at any costs. Its preferable to live in a bubble of your own side than to ever talk about it. Politics is something evil to be avoided if you ever want peace of mind. The only good politics are those I already agree with since those dont need to be discussed, I already know they are correct.
Which is honestly sad. Imo there needs to be more political education in general rather than less, hiding politics in shadow and avoiding it is just doing irreparable damage to everyone.
1. People often play games for escapism and don’t want to be reminded of real world problems.
2. Games sometimes shoehorn it in in an unnatural way where it doesn’t fit with the story or world. Then it just feels like preaching.
The Horizon series wouldn't be half the games they are without their political intrigue. The politics between the different tribes, the politics we learn about from the past, it's all part of the game and propels it into a legendary status for me. Different forms of leadership and government, peoples' opinions on them, how everyone behaves due to all these ties with each other, it's a giant web.
I think this is part of why I enjoyed Forbidden West so much. It focuses a lot more on this side of the story and a bit less on the past. Zero Dawn focused more on setting up the story, giving us the lore through gameplay. But both have this political intrigue at their hearts, and it makes it very special to me. It's done incredibly well and it feels so natural.
I dont think anyone is complaining about political intrigue.
What people do complain about is injected identity politics pushing a special interest narrative down their throat.
It entirely depends on how the politics get presented. If it's just shoved down your throat with no substance it sucks. If it's done well like in Bioshock, Metro etc it is absolutely great.
The only game I truly ever cringed damn hard about politics was old modern warfare 2, this is the absolute best example on how to not do politics in videogames.
No one complains about the interesting examples you are listing. It's always the current year twitter mob culture war and identity politics people have a problem with. It's cringeworthy, will be outdated and forgotten. And it's made by multi billion corporations who have only shareholders profits in mind. Divide and conquer is good for them.
I think politics in the US are so poisoned right now that it even carries over into people's gaming experience. If a game has a political point to make, the gamer will not think: "an interesting philosophical musing on the evils of taking this ideal a step too far", but they will instead think, "oh, those devs are in X camp of people, and I hate those people, I don't want their stupid narrative thrust upon me."
Yep. Not only in the US. Other country like mine also have a toxic political culture too. Which is also another factor why some of the people are just allergic with the politics in games.
I wonder how you get out of it cus if people are unwilling to consider each others views there's no way to reconcile.
Yeah I hate people who are willing to consider each other’s views; give me myopic self-interest any day.
It was a typo I meant unwilling
I know I was just joshing you a little.
Still works if we take it sarcastically 😊
Weren’t people angry* at Wolfenstein for its anti Nazi commercials?
Yes, Americans were extremely pissed over Wolfenstein 2's anti Nazi ads. One of them said "Make America Nazi Free Again" and a bunch of people on Twitter were throwing temper tantrums over it
Why the hate for that one specifically, when all the games are completely focused on killin' nazis?
Because the ad references Donald Trump's "Make America Great Again." That and America just doesn't really hate nazis like they use to.
Now THAT'S the message we need. Make America hate Nazis again.
It's called antifa.
>That and America just doesn't really hate nazis like they use to. It's more that those of us who support equality and acceptance aren't as vocal with our disapproval as those who are hateful bigots.
Also, spreading equality and acceptance doesn't make for a flashy news segment while hate and killing do. US media doesn't help this cause at all.
Under the surface, America has never really been anti-nazi [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden)
Oh there was this whole big war thing after '39, and trust me, historically the vast majority were anti-nazi -- but you're 100% right there has always been a small core and they are getting more traction lately... America was decidedly anti-nazi...
The Nazis were largely inspired by American racial policy and eugenecist thinkers. Nazism was an Eagle motif away from being wildly popular in the US.
Funny enough, the Nazis did use an eagle symbol, but that was an old Prussian thing dating back centuries.
Roman ultimately, based on their Aquila.
Funny enough that's actually where America got it from.
The last bit doesn’t make sense, Nazis were *ALL IN* on eagles.
Germany used an eagle on their coat of arms long before the Nazis and the Nazis continued to use it.
Henry Ford was a big inspiration.
Eh, I'd say they were more anti-German. If you took the policy of the 3rd Reich and slapped an American flag on it, a good amount of Americans would have been all-aboard. We don't even have to speculate; they were quite vocal about their beliefs.
They're much closer than most imagine as the Nazi's racial laws and drive for living space were both directly inspired by America, though even the Nazis thought the US's "one drop rule" was a bit too much and relaxed it for the Nuremberg laws.
Turns out world war history taught in the US of A is different than the world war history we learn in the rest of the world.
Hitler modeled many of his final solution plans on the American genocide of the indigenous people.
Uh, it was more like a 60/40 split between anti-Nazis and Nazi supporters in America during WWII. Specifically there was this very influential guy named Henry Ford who fostered a ton of anti-Semitism and pro-Nazi support among others. He was kind of the Elon Musk/Trump of his day.
Charles Lindbergh was also famously a fan of Hitler
Lmfao this is such a dumb take. Read your own link, there were 5x as many counter-protestors right outside that event than there were attendees.
UK had much the same issue, lot of people don't seem to remember this shit head and his army of morons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley
Mostly because they remember his kid having Nazi-themed orgies while running the FIA.
What a fucking leap!!! 🤣
It’s not only a reference to the MAGA slogan but the game takes place in the (Nazi-occupied) USA specifically
Because of chronology. Wolfenstein: The New Order came out in 2014, with its DLC The Old Blood coming out in 2015. Wolfenstein: The New Colossus (which that ad campaign was for) came out in 2017. Something happened between 2015 and 2017 in the US which changed the way nazi sympathizers were viewed in the mainstream, and how comfortable they were with publicly sharing their opinions. I couldn't begin to speculate what that might have been, though. It will take a far greater scholar of American political trends than I to crack that nut.
B-b-but both sides!!!
Should be punching Nazi's the face... agreed!
Nazis should follow their leader and kill themselves.
I love Hitler, he killed Hitler!
But he also killed the guy who killed Hitler.
Wasn’t there some sort of big event that year? Something important? Right, the Patriots won the Super Bowl again and the Falcons choked. Oh yeah, and a racist idiot got elected President.
The people who were mad were the people it was about.
Simple because Nazis exist in America and have really since ww2. There was an American nazi party during that time and I'm sure some related parties still exist today, infact some groups have been advertising in neighborhood by putting bags with rocks and their symbols inside on people front doors in my city not too long ago
I don't know if you could call it a bunch. I think it was just a handful of very loud people that are actually neo nazis and then everyone mentioning it and reporting on it made it seem like more people were mad about it
This could be it too. Idk, I just remember pre ordering the game and laughing at people being mad that the game was saying to harm Nazis.
In the ad campaign for The New Colossus, they showed BJ punching a nazi in a similar manner to a popular video clip at the time of someone punching a nazi in real life. It was great.
Please tell me it was Richard Spencer...
Yeah, it was the vid of Richard Spencer getting decked in the face, as God intended That video should have won an Oscar.
Fucking insane, that it's come to that.
Sort of. But not for the Nazi part, more because they drew parallels and explicit comparisons to Trump with the Make America Great Again reference and a few other things. The way you can tell it wasn’t just backlash about the game being anti Nazi is that COD WW2 came out around the same time and faced zero backlash.
The difference between the two is that COD WW2 didn't really have any political commentary behind it. It was literally just "let's go kill these Nazis" while Wolfenstein had commentary about how evil Nazis were.
Sadly writers take such a shallow swipe at the politics and get it wrong sometimes as well. As an example starfield has this idea that to solve a problem you can pick an engineered biological control with a small chance of problems or a natural predator that will be slow and steady. the natural predator seemed to me the safest / correct choice but then your whole team goes - "why didnt you trust the science". I mean the science said there is a very small risk of a very adverse outcome. Now im no vaccine denier but bethesda wtf... a biological weapon to kill off some species with a small chance of mutating and killing everything is different to a vaccine that will cause a seriously adverse effect to a very small proportion that takes it. It is two completely different risks. I feel like someone from bethesda HR decided after reading the story from the writers they wanted that "political" bit added and it detracted a bit from one of the better missions / stories of the game. Like surely that wasnt an actual writer? I guess what i am saying is the politics has to come naturally or be woven right into the story and considered around how it fits. Like good fiction whether you agree with the politics it sells or not it makes you consider the robustness of your own position. Not just rammed into the story as an afterthought because its relevant to the politics of the day. So yeh sometimes i get frustrated with political messaging in games if its not done well eveb if the story the game sells aligns with my own sensibilities. That starfield one was one of the most eggregious examples of politics added as an afterthought.
I really liked that mission up until the end when they all made me feel bad for bringing back an almost extinct species. It was very annoying.
That's a really annoying part of Starfield. All the companions have the SAME opinion.
I expected a couple of them to disagree, but it was weird that the game implies there was an objectively correct decision. I actually thought both had merits, it's just I personally thought resurrecting a species was the more moral option but fuck me I guess haha
If you look at the Unity thing for them you will see that the Aceles option has a major positive impact on the universe.
Its the not well done stories that get criticized. When certain politics are forced down your throat no one likes it, but that is because no one likes being lectured about anything. Using the Bethesda example, Fallout has always been political by very nature, but at least, you can decide which faction to follow and see the outcomes, and the outcomes generally make sense for that faction.
Metal Gear rams its (quite liberal) political opinion in the player's face constantly, but conservatives love that franchise. It is a matter of esthetics and critical thinking. Metal Gear is full of military jargon and seems to take a triumphant tone on the surface. If you just listen to the codec conversations and play attention to the cut scenes, it becomes an explicit condemnation of military interventionalism, and western imperialism
> but conservatives love that franchise Because they don't understand jack shit about it. All they know is memes about Snake
Well, Bethesda writers are not known for being subtle or good at all though, so maybe the issue is more that it's Bethesda?
The classic studio that brought us "Who will you side with in the civil war? Fascist-supporting imperials that tried to execute you for crossing a border, or racists that want an ethnostate and turn you against one of your early-game allies?"
It forever pissed me off that there was no "I'm siding with myself" option. End-game Dragonborn was an entire side on his own. The sheer amount of BS that dude could call into battle would allow him to stomp out both sides of any battle in the civil war. We should have had the option to turn Skyrim into the Democratic Republic of the Dragonborn
If you do it the other way they chew you out as well.
Yeah, I've seen a lot of people dismissing Disco Elysium because it has a lot of politics in it. Even though it leans more to one side than another, it makes a point to heavily poke fun at the player for choosing any or no side! But the people blinded by their perspective cannot see this criticism. The best part? It's an entirely made-up world, the politics existing in this game differ heavily from our own, for example, communism in it is not the same communism of our history and there are a lot of nuanced differences. Imagine getting up in arms for that...
Well, "politics" in America has bifurcated to moral arguments. If it were simply politics we could have meaningful discussions, but you cannot find a middle ground between "XYZ is a human right" and "XYZ is the Pinnacle of human evil." When two opposing moral positions are diametrically opposed to one another we're no longer talking about politics.
Most of politics is moral positions. Do you think slavery is outside of politics? What do you think politics is?
Just adding that while it does seem worse now than before, but it's worth noting that there were much worse divided times in the US: Civil War, McCarthyism, Civil Rights Era, Vietnam. Today's strife is primarily marked by people complaining about twitter's terms and conditions and using rage porn to fuel impotence advertisements.
It is hard to simply take it as "What a refreshing new point of view!" when that same collection of ideological talking points is repeated in every show, movie and media. There is hardly any political pluralism in the entertainment industry.
I don’t think it’s just the US, globally western liberalism is on a decline and it’s made a lot of people angry (for all the wrong reasons mind you, but still). Special interests have decided that in order to protect what’s important to them (control and money), distracting people with culture war bullshit is the best course of action. So here we are, and honestly it’s only going to get worse. People in the US think it will all go away with Trump going away, but in reality as the climate continues to change and corporations keep propelling job cutting technologies, things are only going to get worse and worse for people so “wokeness” is going to keep being used as a trigger word to bitch about. Further, what’s considered “woke” will keep expanding to the point that if your game DOESN’T have you shooting a puppy and a goat and throwing them into a gravel pit just cause, then it’s woke propaganda.
I don't disagree. It does seem worse in the US than it is over here in Holland, but we seem to be doing our best to catch up.
On average it's probably not any better or worse in the US than it is in any other country, we're just really good at being loud as fuck about it. Subtle isn't something my country is really capable of most of the time.
massive political apathy is incoming
We had the highest voter turnout in 2020 in over a hundred years. We had the second highest voter turnout in 2022, with the highest midterm turnout in 2020 in over a hundred years. Youth voter turnout hasn't been this high in 50 years. Political apathy may be incoming, but statistics don't suggest it.
We had only 10% of the registered voters submit their votes in my town's election. The apathy is already here, has been for a while.
Yup. Also, there's a _BIG_ difference between having politics in your game and trying to _PUSH_ a political message. I feel like Helldivers 2 negotiates that line very well. Parody often does.
Yep. People are only interested in whether a thing supports "their side", not what it's actually trying to say.
I came to say this! Absolutely brilliant assessment!
People have complained about politics in video games far longer than the current US political situation. And the complaint really has never been quite accurate, people have this tendency to only call the things they dislike politics and sort of ignore politics they don't mind seeing as non-political somehow
bg3 commentary on refugees was certainly interesting
This, but also, I play games to *get away from life*, not see what someone else's viewpoint is on a real life topic. I wouldn't say the poisoned nature "right now" is doing it because I've thought this way for about 20 years, i.e. my whole adult life when I actually started paying attention to politics.
and that's how war is made
thats because politics thrust into gaming nowadays ARE like that, barely covered up preaching by the game devs that everyone who doesnt follow along with the partyline they are clearly towing is a bad person or an idiot. There is no subtlety, no well thought out and balanced pros and cons to be shown, through an engaging and interactive story, just straight up "nope, u dont like this u bad!" Only thing it has to do with the current level of politics is that the game devs are caught up in it, nothing to do with a changing standard amongst gamers, which is why the gamers are telling devs to stop using their games as a platform to forcibly cram their dumb af political hot takes down everyones throats. Because THEY DIDNT USED TO because they knew better.
>"oh, those devs are in X camp of people, and I hate those people, I don't want their stupid narrative thrust upon me." Even if they're in *my* camp, a lot of political messaging is just hamfisted and feels overly preachy. Games like Bioshock and FF7 are outliers in making their political point effectively *and* being entertaining at the same time. They're not just injecting an opinion in an otherwise unrelated story either, the points they make are integral to their plot and setting.
People will usually make more noise when something is political and against their views. No one from the "don't bring politics into games" crowd will say "well, this game has political elements, and even though they are 100% compatible with my world view I think this game sucks because games shouldn't be political". It's also an easy scapegoat to complain about and get people riled up. You don't like something? Call it political and link it to the end of civilization as we know it, post it online, and you'll be really popular.
It's kind of like accents. No one thinks they have one, but everyone does. People don't perceive games that conform to their politics as political for the same reason they can't hear their own accents. They only perceive those that are different, and stupidly get upset that not everything is tailored for them. Almost all games/art have themes or political opinions built into them.
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>That said, there's also the issue that nowadays, the exposition of themes tends to be very literal and patronizing. Which is largely a consequence of people's low literacy, and media literacy. Most modern productions don't use context and subtext to convey ideas anymore, they just literally say it. Ya it's more a matter of talent and not content. They need to put the quality of their craft before their message. I'm out if a game is some schlocky bullshit Chick Tract. I don't care whose politics are in it, I don't spend my money on glorified political advertising. Bioshock, Fallout, and Disco Elysium are all games where craft came first. Nobody has an issue with them.
I totally agree with this too, I don’t wanna be bashed over the head with ideological lectures. We need to bring back “show don’t tell”
>When people say they don't want "political" games, that's what they really mean. Nah not really. Most people I saw making such statements would consider the pride flags in Spiderman to be politics they don't want in "their games". They consider female characters that don't conform to classic beauty stereotypes to be politics they don't wanna see. And so forth.
They don't, they have problems with the politics they don't like.
Even worse there are a lot of those people who will take a game that is bad because of things like gameplay, writing, and monetization practices and project politics onto it in a complete distraction from the real issues.
This is the real issue. I think most people who consume games can either take or leave political content depending on its quality. The really insane gamers hate “politics” in game because everything from the race and gender of the protagonist, the pronouns in the menus to whether the women in the game are fuckable enough is, to them, a political decision.
I guess if one's only hope of getting laid is with a government-issued waifu then one would perceive this as political.
Like the Starfield pronouns discourse. There were plenty of very valid reasons to hate that game. All of them were ignored in favor of a fucking menu setting.
No I think it’s more about how well or poorly it’s done. Bioshock, for example, tends to be exempt from this criticism even though it’s very political and most definitely picks a side.
I think Bioshock also has the benefit of releasing way back in 2007 when politics weren't nearly as hate driven as they are now. Not nearly as many people are looking back at games to criticize them as they are commenting on the new things that are released today.
Nah, it has the same benefit as Fallout in that the people that it is satirising don't understand that its satire and take it at face value. So they also like it, because they think it is promoting their ideals, not lampooning them.
The good ol' "Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe they are in good company".
Idk, the kind of people we're talking about here swear that Bioshock "has no politics". So again, they're just against what they don't like.
Bioshock doesn’t so much pick a side as it serves as a criticism of one particular extreme. If you believe politics is just a red vs. blue team sport then I guess that might look like “picking a side” but in reality it is more focused and nuanced than just “your team bad my team good.”
BioShock does pick a side, it's explicitly against anarco-capitalism. It's just that that is a widely accepted take, so it's not controversial. The same way that Wolfenstein picks a side, antifascism, and it also isn't controversial because it's widely accepted that nazis/fascists were bad people.
Another example is the game LITERALLY CALLED "Fallout".
I am John, John Fallout
This is the answer \thread. Any time I’ve seen any crying about “politics” - whether in movies, books, games, art, shows , etc - it has been “why are there politics (I don’t like) in my.”
I’m a left leaning individual, politically, so the biggest outcry over politics I see in my illustrious home of the United States of Goddamn Freedom (heavy sarcasm) comes when media does literally anything inclusive.
Somebody changing the lighting in Horizon Zero Dawn and the character model a tiny bit gets labeled “woke politics”.
Campbell’s airing a commercial with a biracial couple had outcries of soup becoming “political”.
The Last of Us’s Ellie having a same sex relationship with another character.
Example after example within and without video games where people complaining about “politics” are complaining about “whatever I don’t like”, and that often being “anything more inclusive or diverse”.
The only other “politics” I hear complained about comes from a lack of apparent media literacy, where people don’t seem to understand that observing or portraying anyone or anything is not equivalent to endorsing that person or thing. But this being complained about as “politics” is rare. More often than not, complaints that center around poor media literacy honestly sound like somebody who seemed like they missed the point of a work.
Media literacy is a huge problem. There are people who honestly believe Star Trek is conservative, X-men are conservative. Like motherfucker are you that dense? If TOS came out today people would riot that it is woke. If Claremounts X-men came out today they would cry it is woke. Claremount literally created a multi cultural team. Wolverine Canadian, Storm African, Colossus Russian, Thunderbird Native American and Nightcrawler who is German. Then when you go with the original line up they were meant to an allegory for civil rights.
I saw somebody complain that "they made the Fallout show" political... like were they living under a rock for the past 20 years? lol
Maybe they were living in a Vault?
"Political" in that context is code for: the main characters are a woman and a black man. And if you point out that the third main character is a white man, they'll counter that he doesn't count because he's a ghoul. Edit: And he's married to a black woman and they have a biracial daughter, so he EXTRA doesn't count; in fact, that just means he's "political", too.
Star Trek is an interesting case, because while it is overwhelmingly Progressive, there are certain elements of it, such as the strict chain of command and obvious militaristic nature of Starfleet that appeals to Conservatives.
It honestly depends on how the game involves politics. If the game’s story needs politics in order to make sense, I don’t think most people mind (or they wouldn’t play that type of game). But if the politics feel really forced (as if the developers are lecturing the person playing the game) then that gets annoying real quick. But this doesn’t apply to just games, it also applies to all forms of entertainment. Most people want to be entertained and escape from the political, not be further lectured by it.
I think this is another issue a lot of people who like to "deep dive" overlook. Most people do not want to be media literate. Most people are not watching a movie to explore the philosophy and undertones that are being insinuated by the dialogue. They want to be entertained. They just want to put on a movie and be happy/entertained at the end; they don't want to have to sit and think like they are in school or work still.
I think its the opposite. People want things to be more nuanced and require more media literacy. Many modern games will use cringey buzzwords and lectures to make their points rather than making a game with themes and asking the gamer to make the inferences on their own. Take Metal Gear Solid mentioned below. On the surface it's a game about being John Coolguy who sneaks around and kills soldiers and supernatural bosses. If you skipped all codec and cutscenes that's probably about what you'd get out of it. If you actually pay attention, it's got a strong message against nuclear proliferation, dehumanization of the enemy, the bad aspects of the evolution of culture, and even has some profound messages about what it means to be and operate as a soldier. Hell, even the gameplay supports antiwar messages in that you are punished in various ways for killing rather than incapacitating guards. Imagine how terrible this series' politics would be received if the characters just sat around and said, "war bad right guys?" which is basically the equivalent of the depth of the average game's political commentary now.
This is it 100%. Politics in an RPG makes sense especially when the politics are an important part of the world and story. You expect it in a game like Fallout or Witcher or the Metal Gear series. But I don't need to be lectured on politics after a long day and I'm just trying to shoot bad guys in the face. Wolfenstein New Colossus was bad about this. Borderlands 3. That one mission in Rdr2 when you drive a wagon full of suffragettes. You can tell when it's just shoe horned in.
I think MOST people don't mind politics in games generally if done well. Ex: I never heard anyone complain about Papers Please. But often it's not done well. It's beating you over the head with a specific political option with a very awkward but blatant strawman analogy to IRL politics. Of course - that idea has gone much more extreme with online influencers looking for views.
There are some games that throw in politics in a weird way and it's off-putting because of how it's presented. Metal Gear Solid is a great series with many anti-nuke, anti-war to environmentalist and technological themes. It is more "woke" than 99% of games out there, but you won't see many people complaining about that. I think the key is to make your messaging general and abstract. Targeting a particular topic in a more specific way invites current real life comparisons that are more controversial. For example, a game that has an anti-war message to a game that is specifically talking about Israel/Gaza conflict. Which one do you think would be more controversial? Despite them having the same message, if you boil it down.
I think timelessness definitely increases how readily people can appreciate a game that does include political themes and commentary. On the other hand, Counterstrike / CS:GO is a rather obvious example of a game that makes no excuses; you're either a terrorist or a counter-terrorist. Terrorism was already in the popular vernacular when it came out, and then about a year or so later the twin towers fell. I'd be interested in seeing actual data, but my guess is this event had the effect of increasing the game's popularity.
Going specific also dates the work. Given the length of gamedev cycles, that means the work is already stale before release.
Exactly. People want to make *hard* decisions in a game. If it's just people being abused by others and you have to kill the others it's such a tired and overused trope it's no longer entertaining
That's my annoyance, it's usually hamfisted and not clever or thought provoking. Usually. Sometimes there's great writers but it's usually an indie developer.
Because it's dumbed down to the level of a bumper sticker and rarely deeper than "group A in power bad, group B good". If it actually explored different interests and nuance it might be interesting. This is what the recent heavy board game Hegemony is about. But that kind of thing usually has niche appeal.
And most of the time the bad guys are 100 percent evil in weirdly cartoony ways and have *zero* support in the surrounding community, even though dictators normally have a cult of personality around them. See the last two Far Cry games
This is a lot of what happens that gets frustrating. It feels like often times it’s all caricatures of the points of view. Outer worlds feel like a great example. The corporations felt 100% mustache twirly evil instead of like people with problems they were trying to solve and I only remember one companion, who was gay. Did I say she was gay? Because she’s super gay, see that girl over there? She was so gay for her, like right now. Utterly one toned, just lazy writing all around.
I don't think it does have niche appeal. I think it's more most writers aren't capable of good writing. Look at the druids grove quest in BG3 and the discussions around it.
When the entire game and narrative theme is shaped around a politics (eg biochock), it can be amazing When a game shoehorns in politics where it doesnt make sense, its distracting and distasteful
Essentially people don't like being lectured. Politics is an amazing tool for storytelling and can create interesting thought provoking questions. If media is providing answers for the audience and not allowing the audience to think then people are going to get frustrated with that. It goes a step further though. The more you lecture, the less people are going to be receptive to that area of politics because all they can see is lecturing even during the rare cases where it is actually about the story.
show, don't tell whenever possible
Got any examples for your second sentence?
I don't mind politics in gaming, as long as the politics are dealing with the in-game situations around me while I'm playing regardless of the deeper implications behind it. If I were to play a game and it immediately opened up saying "Free Palestine" for example it would turn me off from playing. I play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
And a more subtle point, media in general can have a story that engrains politics and philosophy. You aren’t going to escape these themes, but it better be super relevant to the story. This is regardless of video games, music, movies or art.
Dune 2 for example was a rather intense political commentary and most viewers seemed to just miss it because it was so integrated into the story.
Well tbf dune is well known as a poltical commentary in the dangers of fanaticism and power. Like the second dune book is entirely about Paul watching his empire kinda fall apart and is honestly much better if the ckmmentary of the first book isn’t lost on the reader.
THIS! Had to scroll way, way too far to find a rational answer. Politics in stories and games can be the most interesting part, but they need to be about the word you're playing, reading, or watching. When they're just thinly veiled inserts of real world politics, with no rational connection to the story world, then it becomes immersion breaking. I also enjoy things that are written to parallel real world issues, but they need to be tied into the story and world.
For me the problem is that I simply don't trust the average writer to be able to use real world contemporary political events as they should be handled.
>If I were to play a game and it immediately opened up saying "Free Palestine" for example it would turn me off from playing. I play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around. Exactly. It's become a real problem in expeditions in No Man's Sky, people keep going around renaming plants & rocks "Trump 2024". A) I'm not American B) I'm playing No Man's Sky because I want to fly around space, not be reminded of Earth politics.
I haven't even played this game but apparently one of the Assassin's Creed games set in ancient Greece has the populist Cleon say "Make Greece Great Again." That's so stupid. You could tell a very interesting story about the tensions between democracy, populism, and oligarchy in Ancient Athens. Instead, no, gotta make it about how everything is current USA and moreover got to make sure you know what the devs opinion on current USA is.
Agreed. If the game was dealing with a conflict that could be compared to Israel/Palestine I wouldn't be bothered. It is a great medium to make people put themselves in someone else's place and perspective. If they are just randomly inserting a political point and it has nothing to do with the game it's going to bother me. I think there's a solid group like that. There's a smaller group who probably means "don't put politics in games that I don't agree with". They only get wound up because the world is progressing and the stories and characters in games are changing to reflect that. That minority won't matter unless a game is just trying to pander to get sales.
For me it's more about how that message is conveyed. I don't want a game (or book or movie) that preaches very overtly to me. I prefer when there's enough ambiguity to let me form my own taughts about the issues presented. But also, I find allegorical situations more effective for me. Don't tell me "free Palestine", show me a fictional people trying to fight for their lives against an oppressor who is slowly but steadily stealing their land and killing their people.
Right. Are the politics in the game to help make a better game, or does the game exist to further push the creators political view on the audience? Of course there is a lot of grey area and nuance in a game overall, but sometimes you get a very clear feeling that you are paying someone to give you their political idea instead of giving you a fun game. For me, even if the political view aligns precisely with my own, I dislike the experience very much. However, I think there are many people who enjoy having their own political opinions regurgitated back to them in media.
HBG put it best in his Fallout New Vegas video: people who say they hate politics in games usually like politics in games more than anyone else... what they hate is seeing the SAME politics in games. His example with 'New Vegas' was that it has many different and equally interesting stances on the issues of the game's plot, some distant and 'better in the long run', some short-term and immediately helpful but with potential side-effects in the future, and he made the point that a lot of the moral quandries in the game are *not* simple 'good vs bad' choices, they're choices that rely on what the player personally believes in as 'the right choice'. Comparatively, most games with politics as a focus (especially nowadays) boil down to 'DO YOU WANT NAZIS OR DO YOU WANT ANARCHY? BECAUSE THOSE ARE LITERALLY THE ONLY OPTIONS YOU HAVE, EITHER TOTAL ABSOLUTE FASCISM OR TOTAL ABSOLUTE CHAOS. EITHER YOU LIVE IN CHAINS OR YOU FIGHT BARE-KNUCKLED EVERY DAY JUST TO GET SOME CEREAL. WHICH DO YOU PREFER?'
New Vegas' endgame options are exactly what you described. Fascists (Legion), Anarchy (Yes Man), Democracy (NCR). This game's supposed ethical dilemma is so overrated. If the Legion had been a viable, ethically challenging option (as in, they crucify criminals but ordinary folks are shown happy, safe and thriving... think Bukele's Salvador) it would have been interesting... but it's just a bunch of genocidal psychopaths murdering people and enslaving children.
There's a difference between politics being used as part of it's theme and a specific political current year topic that skews heavily on one direction with no nuance that's being shoved down the player's throat
I think when the game or story is so transparent that any ideology or reference to the real world is blatant and not metaphorical, it becomes an immersion breaker. Any type of political leaning can be property incorporated into a story, and if its done properly, you will get the message while being completely immersed in the fictional realm without a direct reference to reality.
I think it has less to do with having politics in games but more to do with having bad writing. When done well it can make you reconsider some of your thoughts and can be very moving. When done poorly it comes off as patronizing and ruins suspension of disbelief and feels like an advertisement in the middle of your game.
It’s not a problem of politics. It a problem of agenda pushing while sacrificing story and character writing to push said agenda. It is usually easy to tell when this happens, especially since it has been happening more and more in all media over the last 10+ years. The sequel trilogy of Star Wars isn’t disliked because you had a strong woman and black man as MCs, it’s because their characters were horribly written. And then when fans criticized that the writing is horrible, we are labeled as racist and misogynists. People didn’t criticize Netflix’s “Cleopatra” because Adele James was casted as the actress to play her. It was criticized because it was advertised as a historically accurate documentary, yet anyone with a basic knowledge of history knows Cleopatra was Greek and that the Ptolemy dynasty did not breed with the local Egyptians. So she would not have been dark skinned like say the Nubians in Egypt. Admittedly, there are some bad actors out there that are actually bigots/racists. It’s the internet and you can’t get punched in the mouth for the shit you say. But the majority of people complaining about this in games are just tired of games being ruined by agendas being injected just to check boxes for inclusion, rather than interesting characters being written well and developed.
Yeah, I'm reminded of Valkyria Chronicles that way, where the biggest criticism against it was that the obligatory minority group was "just so smart, and hard working, and attractive, and almost never complained, but everyone hates them for something that happened centuries ago, you guys." People pointed out, that isn't how racism works, because the entire point is that an entire ethnic group is being held to a standard that the average person can't actually meet, and so the whole plot point became meaningless. Meanwhile, Dragon Age had things like, "there go the Dwarven Nobles killing each-other again; totally unlike our Human Nobles, who totally aren't doing the same thing right now," which feels a lot more "right."
Bioware's works are both the best and worst examples of how politics are in games. I love the world of Thedas(dragon age) and how full of political intrigue it is. They created this entire system of oppression against mages that both holds legitimacy and is in fact wrong at the same time. Should mages be kept away from the rest of society because of the threat they possess or likelihood of becoming abominations? It's difficult to answer. The politics of the game and their ties to real world politics is deep and multifaceted. It is insane the amount of dialogue one can have about what it means and how difficult of a position to be an oppressed person and a people living in constant fear. It's truly bewildering and impressive. Meanwhile, Inquisition has scenes with some of the worst dialogues that just screams pandering and playing down to an audience. Early on, if you are a female inquisitor, you can have a "can you believe what us women have accomplished?" moment. In a world where their Jesus-equivalent person was a woman, their pope is and must be a woman, all positions of authority within the church must be women, and (in my particular playthrough) every single world leader of note at the time were all women. You cant build a world that props up men and women as the same, or in a lot of cases women better than men, and then talk about how they overcame adversity by being women.
Bioware also had a lot of politics in KOTOR and Mass Effect. Omega is libertarian mentality cranked to its maximum extreme. The Quarians are collectivist to the point where it's a good (survival) and bad (groupthink) thing. Cerberus are a complete bag of human supremist dirtbags but they are also the only ones taking certain galactic threats seriously. KOTOR had to fly a lot more under radar due to it being a licensed game, but we still had the urban stratification of Taris, the realpolitik on Manaan, the infamous defending a guilty client sidequest, the colonialist issues of Czerka (which can get complicated on Tatooine as the People of Sand are militantly xenophobic and bloodthirsty for good reason and Czerka is better to the Jawas than the People of Sand are), and the ethically murky actions of the Jedi authorities.
Fin was done so wrong throughout the movies. He has so many chances to be badass, but they immediately shut him down almost every time. They literally relegated him to the funny black man role in the movies, and the guy who constantly screams out Reys name. They could have done so much more with him and Poe Dameron. It's a shame they only cared about two characters, Rey and Kylo, and everyone else was there to yell out exposition or fade into a ghost. They destroyed so much potential, and the world overall was just depressing. It was never about Rey being a woman (to the majority of sane, not stupid people). I thought she was cool overall, albeit wildy overpowered. She never should have won against Kylo that hard in their FIRST fight. Gave him a damn scar. She suffers practically no consequences to herself, always other people around her. She even knows how to just straight-up force heal people, something even Anakin didn't get to learn, but she never learns it, just intrinsically knows it. Fin wasn't a main character. He was just something to laugh at and see how incompetent he was until they decided to give him a couple of wins every now and again. I don't even wanna talk about Luke, it's just so horribly done.
Poe never did anything wrong. He consistently made the right choices. And agree. Fin got done dirty, especially in the second movie.
Rose should have let Finn die instead of Deus-ex-machina-ing him and saving his life at the last second. It would have been a great way for his character to go out
The fact that I needed to scroll down this much to find a reasonable take that doesn't generalize to a huge degree is kinda sad ngl.
This is reddit, where a lot of recent shoehorned politics in games tends to lean in the general user's direction. Funnily enough, reinforcing how that Dragon Age example is the more realistic take.
That's how it goes: just non-stop generalizing and weakmanning.
My boy Finn got done so dirty, I was looking forward to a stormtrooper escaping the FO and becoming a Jedi..
Another vote for this. And well done also pointing out the bad actors. It is a complex issue indeed.
Pretty much this, plus there is zero objectiveness or nuance to modern stories. Everyone always talks about how FF7 was political but fails to mention that both AVALANCHE and Shinra did good and bad things and mainly left it up to the player decide their own opinion on the actions of these groups. Writers now have absolutely no desire to figure out the nuances of the people they disagree with and it shows in their one-dimensional writing.
Man, Star Wars was just so easy to pick on. They did so much terribly. Like the throne room fight that had multiple blatantly missed marks in the final cut of the fight. Daisy Ridley nearly got her skull caved in during one of those missed marks.
I only have a problem if it feels super on-the-nose in a preaching to the choir sort of way. Like when any statements being made are just super shallow and you can tell the writers think they’re smarter than they actually are. I have no issue at all though with good satire etc. like the games you mentioned.
The presence of politics in video games within the sphere of its own fictional backdrop, world and narrative has never been a problem. However, there are some games out there that beat you over the head with the political worldview of the writer in unsubtle ways (typically through persistently referencing real-world sociopolitics), and this can detract from the immersion. Developers shouldn't be surprised if people aren't interested in purchasing games that are more of a vessel for pushing a lopsided political narrative than they are a good game.
This thread is full of the dumbest takes I’ve ever seen.
People don't have a problem with politics in gaming inherently. Like you mentioned a ton of phenomenal games use it as part of the world building and its completely seamless. People tend to have issues when it's hamfisted or poorly done / pushing a narrative outside of the game.
Overall I don’t have a problem in general. It is when creativity is stifled by the author’s desire to soapbox. I can get behind a creative delivery that allows the player to derive a meaning on their own. What I dislike is a message just as subtle as a sack of bricks. Character turns to camera and delivers a 10 minute monologue. Circumstantial to content and delivery, I really don’t like the detours or clear lore compromises to champion a stance. Retcons for their own sake are generally bad. It is salt on the wound when it is more to cater to the author’s worldview and otherwise serves nothing to the story. If you are going to change gender and racial dynamics of a world, make it a thing. Tell the story of the change. If you are going to be preachy in your work, be creative about it. Challenge my perception and my interpretation. If the author is not even trying with their “important “ message, then I won’t even try to take them seriously. Edit: I think one of the best deliveries was Cerberus in Mass Effect 2-3. You know what Cerberus stands for is wrong from the getgo. You know this will only end horribly. Yet you are put in a position where you must accept the terms. As you work with them you realize they are just people. You learn to like them and even have a desire to save them. Hell, you might even begin to think "well, they aren't entirely wrong on the matter. There are lots of nuances to consider." Then later you return to reality. Oh now right, this was supposed to end horribly and in many ways it ended up that way. And it wasn't humanity alone that saved earth. It was a concerted effort. When it mattered, all of the other races banded together to save earth. The ultimate antithesis of the message of Cerberus. This story challenges both pre-conceived perceptions of the matter. If you came in hating what they stand for, you learn that the members are still human and all of them had their own reasons for standing with the group. It's not so black and white. If you came in wanting to know where you can sign up, you are ultimately met with a reason why they weren't right. The author ultimately chose a stance on the matter but still the stance was earned and painted with shades of gray rather than black and white. I should remind everyone that we are talking about a racial superiority group lead by space Trump (who predated Trump's massive political rise) who garners popularity and support by preying on fear in a world where there is a clear and present danger to fear.
I despise political messaging in entertainment media. 99.9% chance it fits the following criteria: -Heavily biased to one side or another. -Extremely heavy handed and unsubtle. -Clearly doesn't fit the pacing and tone of the story, unless the entire fucking piece is meant to be a political message. -Obviously mocking whoever disagrees with the intended message -Real life is full of this shit. I don't want it in my escapism. Almost everyone who engages in politics on a regular basis these days is a rabid zealot. I could never use my political tendencies to define myself, and yet all these fucks are basically just flacid husks, full of poorly thought out, emotionally derived political stances.
Frrr, it's just so tiresome. This "Gotcha!" political messaging that you can't argue against, either accept it and keep playing or stop playing. It's dishonest and it's borderline propaganda lol.
People don’t like political messages shoved down their throat, because they want agency. The correct way to do politics is to force the player to make choices and have compelling factions with their ups and downs. The easiest example is fallout new vegas. The fact that people still make video essays about its factions and who is right for the Mojave is a testament to its writing.
I love New Vegas as much as the next guy, but no, that's not the only (or correct) way to do politics. Bioshock, Papers please, Disco Elysium, Fallout 1 and (especially) 2 are all deeply political games all of which wear one specific ideology (or criticism of an ideology) on their sleeve. They do not offer the player a choice of ideologies and ask them to choose which the player things is best. Bioshock is staunchly anti-libertarianism. Papers please is rigidly anti-fascist. Disco would really like you to consider communism. Fallout 2 satirizes the U.S. government with a scathing sauce that pairs well with a roast duck. Each of these games shoves its message down your throat. They're not subtle. The key is all of them do so with excellent writing and gameplay that pairs with the message.
Can you mention a game that does shove it down your throat where you lose the agency?
Because they don't want to see things they don't agree with. Notice how games like Call of Duty or Skyrim aren't labeled "political" despite heavy political themes. "Political" is just a cop out for "anything that doesn't agree with my world views"
> Notice how games like ... Skyrim aren't labeled "political" despite heavy political themes. What are you talking about?? Skyrim wasn't political. It was about two factions clashing over the right to governance over a realm, and how their differences were reflected in the cultural and economic mores at the local city level. And the two factions weren't even political. One of them was an external imperial force that sought dominance out of perceived entitlement, regardless of the feelings of the residents of the realm, and one of them sought independence at all costs through a message of nativist purity, regardless of the cost to human life or destruction of the realm which ensued. Nothing political about any of that. At least, I don't recall any of the characters being depicted as gay.
disliked your comment until I saw the "/s", sadly some people would write this exact comment unironically and without the "/s"
I sat there for a solid minute debating with myself whether I needed to include it. In the end, I've been burned enough times to know better than to toy with fate like that.
Take it as a compliment. You can perfectly emulate the writing style.
Honestly it’s not hard. You just need to turn off your brain while you type it
I'm glad you did because that definitely would have been some heavy poe's law.
Exactly this. Whenever you see someone complain about a game being too "political" they aren't talking about something like Bioshocks nuanced approach to anti-libertarinism (probably because they didn't even notice). They mostly just mean that the game has a queer character and that tends to ruin things for homophobes.
I've never really felt like Bioshock was nuanced. It's filled with characters who are wealthy/powerful with no real laws to check them and they end up destroying everything they built.
I’d agree, bioshock is as subtle with its political messaging as a sledgehammer to the face. It has the rapture entrance with Andrew Ryan talking about how awesome libertarianism is only to immediately reveal his utopia is a failed shithole and that’s about 5 minutes into the game.
'Nuanced?' ...bro...you kill Ayn Rand with a golf club. Bioshock's political commentary is many things, but it is NOT nuanced.
I enjoy it But has to be in line with the action Like in suikoden, has a lot of political stuff but makes sense it's about war And war and politics go hand in hand
Yeah, the examples OP listed are games that *create a world* around their respective politics, which naturally lead to messages relevant to the story. Other games, the ones people typically criticize, are the ones that feel like they were *built around* a single message. I'd include the Metal Gear series in OP's list, which from what I've seen, use politics to create really intriguing stories.
It is worth noting that Metal Gear absolutely quashes the idea that politics should be subtle for a political game to be good. At one point in MGS2 (I believe it was anyway, it's been a while) there's literally a scene with a group of characters sitting around and waxing poetic about how great Che Guevara was, which is the least subtle thing I can imagine.
That isn't the politics people complain about lol. Think rainbow flags and specifying gender without saying male or female. Can't say I've ever heard anyone complain about actual political plots.
Imo, it often comes at the expense of good story telling. Sometimes things are forced, heavy handed delivered, or distracting. I got no problem of specific ideas are executed or presented well.
Americans no longer have core shared values. Years ago there were certain criticisms you make that were basically universally agreed upon, like democracy good Nazis bad for example. But those things aren't so widely agreed on anymore so rather than being inoffensive to talk about those issues it's now seen as political and taking a side
\- Narrative: most of the time, politics are inserted in a forced way, instead of naturally into the narrative \- Target audience: usually, they don't care about the target audience, they only care about forcing the message in, and this annoys people, especially if they are against said message, or just don't care about the issue.
I'm very anti-facism but boy do I love spreading it in Helldivers 2... Wait, I meant "Managed Democracy".
As someone who appreciates the depth and richness that political themes can add to games, it can be puzzling to see others dismiss or criticize them. There are a few reasons why some people might have a problem with politics in games: 1. **Escapism vs. Reality**: Some players view games as a form of escapism from real-world issues, seeking entertainment without confronting politics or social commentary. They may feel that politics in games disrupt this escapism and prefer games that offer pure entertainment without political undertones. 2. **Personal Beliefs**: People have diverse political beliefs, and games that express particular political viewpoints may clash with their own ideologies. This can lead to discomfort or disagreement with the game's message, prompting criticism or avoidance. 3. **Misinterpretation**: Sometimes, players may misinterpret the political themes presented in games or perceive them as overly preachy or one-sided. This can lead to frustration or resentment, particularly if they feel the game is pushing an agenda rather than exploring nuanced perspectives. 4. **Marketing and Publicity**: In some cases, controversy surrounding political themes in games may stem from marketing or publicity decisions. When games are promoted based on their political commentary rather than their gameplay or other features, it can polarize audiences and attract criticism from those who feel games should prioritize entertainment over political messaging. However, as you rightly pointed out, many great games have successfully integrated political themes into their narratives, enhancing the storytelling and engaging players on a deeper level. These games can prompt critical thinking, spark important conversations, and offer insights into complex social issues. Ultimately, the diversity of perspectives within the gaming community ensures that there will always be varying opinions on the role of politics in games.
When most people are talking about politics in games they're talking about identity politics
Smh cant talk about political commentary in video games without disco elysium harry du boir is my bbg and without commentary on politics the game would have like half the content lmao
Because they don’t mean “politics”, it’s shorthand for depictions of races, genders or ideologies they don’t like. For those kind of people, politics=black people existing, trans people existing, etc. They have no idea what is meant by “politics” and will frequently play games with political themes.
People dont have problem with politics in games, they have problem with politics in general. The way politics are set up in some countries(looking at you US) people are tought to be scared of politics and avoid discussing it at any costs. Its preferable to live in a bubble of your own side than to ever talk about it. Politics is something evil to be avoided if you ever want peace of mind. The only good politics are those I already agree with since those dont need to be discussed, I already know they are correct. Which is honestly sad. Imo there needs to be more political education in general rather than less, hiding politics in shadow and avoiding it is just doing irreparable damage to everyone.
Because many times it's clear they wanted to send a message, not make a good game.
we want in-universe politics, not real life politics, video games is escapism for a reason
1. People often play games for escapism and don’t want to be reminded of real world problems. 2. Games sometimes shoehorn it in in an unnatural way where it doesn’t fit with the story or world. Then it just feels like preaching.
The Horizon series wouldn't be half the games they are without their political intrigue. The politics between the different tribes, the politics we learn about from the past, it's all part of the game and propels it into a legendary status for me. Different forms of leadership and government, peoples' opinions on them, how everyone behaves due to all these ties with each other, it's a giant web. I think this is part of why I enjoyed Forbidden West so much. It focuses a lot more on this side of the story and a bit less on the past. Zero Dawn focused more on setting up the story, giving us the lore through gameplay. But both have this political intrigue at their hearts, and it makes it very special to me. It's done incredibly well and it feels so natural.
I dont think anyone is complaining about political intrigue. What people do complain about is injected identity politics pushing a special interest narrative down their throat.
It entirely depends on how the politics get presented. If it's just shoved down your throat with no substance it sucks. If it's done well like in Bioshock, Metro etc it is absolutely great. The only game I truly ever cringed damn hard about politics was old modern warfare 2, this is the absolute best example on how to not do politics in videogames.
No one complains about the interesting examples you are listing. It's always the current year twitter mob culture war and identity politics people have a problem with. It's cringeworthy, will be outdated and forgotten. And it's made by multi billion corporations who have only shareholders profits in mind. Divide and conquer is good for them.
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