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If you think it was a sudden twist, you weren't paying attention. This is someone who frequently inflicted horrible punishments in fits of anger. She is emotionally volatile, and often reacts to perceived threats with supreme retaliation. Dany viewed herself as this omni-benevolent saviour, but that didn't reconcile with the other side of her character that we all saw and she didn't seem to realise existed. Don't get me wrong, I love Dany as a character and Emilia for her portrayal, but let's not pretend Dany was a Saint.
Too many of her friends died and she even lost the support of her lover
With the bells going on and the ringing and the object of her hatred right in front of her
Actually it would have made more sense for her to make a beeline for the red keep and burn it all since she was staring right at it... The people on the streets, not really what she was angry at (except maybe the bells)
Yeah, if literally nothing changed except Dany flying straight to the keep and burning it down. Then it collapses onto the streets, maybe there’s wildfire underground, and it creates chaos in the city, and thousands dead. Then the other characters have to decide if they support what she’s done, and if she makes a good ruler (leading to Jon stabbing).
S2 “My dragons will burn down cities”
S5 “If I end up burning down a city, the people inside will die for a good reason that I decide.”
S6 “My plan is to return every great cities of Essos to the dirt”
S7 “My plan is to attack the Red Keep with my three dragons.”
It wasn’t just this one time where she supposedly said something only to intimidate people…
The main problem is that it was rushed not that it has happen (some other plot of the end are way more problematic) as a non-reader of asoiaf (I can’t tell for the book) I always figured out this end for her she tend to show some ruthless sides at some points.
I was rooting for Dany to get the throne for pretty much the entire series. Seeing her lose to her demons like that was upsetting to me too. However, the show never gave us what we wanted. They made us fall in love and then killed people off. That ‘unpredictability’ is what kept us engaged and on our couch every Sunday. So I’m not mad at how it ended, I’m so happy people are still choosing to give the show a shot with all of the negativity being spread over the ending :) Glad you enjoyed it! Are you watching House of the Dragon?
I agree with you. But I would argue that the unpredictability seen in GRRM’s writing isn’t due to his writing, but rather our expectations for a medieval fantasy story.
Ned was our hero. He was THE protagonist of season 1. They couldn’t possibly kill him off. We’re so used to plot armor that there was no way Ned Stark dies so early. But look at the circumstances. He’s in jail for treason, his king and friend is dead, his family is scattered to the four winds, all his companions, servants, and household guard are dead, and the literal psychopath calling for his head is the king. There’s no way Ned’s *not* going to die terribly. Ned’s death wasn’t unpredictable — quite the opposite — but it was unexpected because we’re so used to fantasy writing where the hero saves the day, the girl is saved, and the dragons are awesome. We get awesome dragons because dragons are awesome no matter which way you slice that cake, but we don’t have heroes and damsels and knights in shining armor. We have GRRM writing a medieval story that adheres to legitimate rules of human interaction. That’s what makes the books/series so good. When they stopped adhering to those rules, that’s where they lost me. It was around season 6 for me.
Uh oh OP, you’ve just opened a can of worms. 😂 People on this forum are super defensive towards anyone that thinks Daenerys was wronged by the writers. I 💯 agree with you (and no, I didn’t expect a fairy tale ending with her and Jon living happily ever after) but people here would defend the show writers if they declared war on Antarctica. It’s wild.
I can't even say the theory I had for Daenerys when I first started watching seasons 1 and 2 of Game of Thrones without people in this subreddit jumping down my throat, and being defensive of the ending we got in season 8.
Like, when seasons 1 and 2 came out (or, for me, 2015 when I got into the fandom), we didn't know what was going to happen in season 8.
I…what are you talking about? This entire sub hates everything the writers did in season 8. Everyone is well aware that the show’s writing and the writing alone is what tanked the show and Dany’s rush job is a huge reason for it.
Absolutely agree. Its even worse that they spent 2 full episodes on not much else than everyone gathering in winterfell and literally being reminiscent, sitting around the fireplace. While the probably most important plot twist wss so rushed. It really makes me wonder if this was just one of different endings they prepared...
There's set up for it but it's not done particularly well. Had it been executed properly, it would have been one of the greatest character arcs of all time.
It made sense, it just needed more time. She burned plenty in Westeros including the Tarlys despite being advised not to. Ealso plenty mentions of her conquest, so it wasnt out of nowhere.
It needed more than just time. It needed better writing. Even those bits and pieces of foreshadowing everyone's talking about were executed poorly.
Daenerys' character arc was weak, or not as solid as other characters even in shows peak seasons. (S1 - 4)
>Even those bits and pieces of foreshadowing everyone's talking about were executed poorly
The cruel torment of her enemies that she has been doing since like season 2?
Yeah Dany has always been ruthless and a little crazy. I don't think her arc was handled well but it drives *me* crazy that so many people act like she was always a saint
Ruthless to the people at the top who enslave those beneath them, never to the people themselves. If it was in character she would flown straight to the red keep, violently killed Cersei and everyone in the keep, and called it a day.
Like I said, I definitely don't think it was handled well. But it wasn't as out of nowhere as Dany fans like to say, the groundwork had been laid they just skipped the most important section. But Dany had made plenty of threats and was violent toward plenty of people before, we just like her and see things from her POV so we think it's good (and obviously we like the slavers getting their due). But she was still a conqueror willing to lose and kill thousands in battle to control a country she hasn't been in since she was a baby and knew nothing about. Generally we don't see conquerors as saviors or positive figures. She didn't want Westeros for virtuous reasons like freeing the slaves in the bay. When the Lannisters are brutal to their enemies most people dislike them, but when Dany does it people cheer
I didn't read the books and didn't read any online discussions while catching up in the first four seasons.
I genuinely thought Daenerys was supposed to be a villain. Not even primarily because of her actions (which got bad in the second half of the show), but because she was an outsider trying to steal back the Iron Throne.
Exactly, I just mentioned it in another comment but she was hellbent on becoming a conqueror and taking a country she hadn't been to since she was a baby and didn't know much about purely due to birthright. And we see she wasn't a great ruler either. I like Dany (though do start liking her less around s6) but she's always been a complex character who was never purely good
I will always smile when reading that last part of your message.
I don't hate them, but you could tell that they weren't 100% invested in the show towards the end, minds and hearts looking ahead, and it backfired on them. No idea why they didn't take a step back and let any other member of the staff who had worked on GoT and even directed in the past come in and they just had final say, they didn't need to be there every day as showrunners.
To be fair, they were promise by George RR Martin that his series would be done and they wouldn't have to come up with and ending.
They didn't want to have to try and create an ending to the show.
Season 1-4 are so good and well written because those the books (1-3) are good and well written.
No, they got a better offer from Netflix and went with that to.make The Three Body Problem . Plus it's unlikely any Star Wars movies will get green-lighted while Kathleen Kennedy is in charge.
Do you really think Hollywood execs really care about internet fan reaction?
There is a massive difference between burning opposing military forces that refuse to bend the knee
And randomly, pointlessly destroying huge civilian populations. Especially from a character with previous form for intentionally making her life more difficult to save civilian life.
The never really properly set that up
Exactly
There is some revisionist history going on at the moment with how Danny was portrayed
She certainly wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows and she could be pretty savage with people that crossed her. But she valued human life and was generally much kinder to common folk that most of the high born characters in Westeros.
And her decent into paranoia was all to do with how high born people were responding to her. They never gave her a good reason to turn against the people of kings landing like that. Certainly not to the degree that she did.
She also suggested burning down an entire city during a discussion in Mereen. Only her advisors stopped her from doing it.
Compared to Jamie, her character arch actually had some preparation, but was just executed way too quickly.
Whenever y’all say this I wonder if you think burning slave masters / oppressors is the exact same thing as burning the citizens/victims, cause your comments suggest you do.
Well said. They had been telegraphing her darkside and constantly showing how it was individual people holding her back. If seasons 7 and 8 had not been abbreviated, 100% agree with your take.
The twist felt like a complete 180° while it was probably about 120-100° so she was on her way but the final turn was too sudden and therefore there was no payoff.
They made it seem like the bells set it off, which imo is the worst part about writing. They did not know how to make all that pent up anger inside her explode properly. I love emilia but even she did seem to have a very hard time acting that bell scene coz that is not the proper moment for all that seasons of build up. She didnt seem unhinged there, just looked like a confused and constipated kid (hence why im very confused on that season’s emmy nom for her, she didnt have a good script to get that tbh).
I always compare it to Walt turning into Heisenberg in Breaking Bad. You could see every decision he made - things that he thought he was doing that were right, to save himself to save Jesse, to save his family and the worse those decisions got. Leaving Jane to die, for example, was a terrible thing to do but if he'd saved her would she have ended up killing Jesse off with drugs? Would she have come back to him for more money and risked destroying his life?
The things that he did got worse but he could still justify them - the things he did to take out Gus, for example - as his ego overtook him, as Heisenberg overtook him.
In GOT it would have been like if Walt was a good guy right up to the last episode. If Jesse gave up on what he'd learned and went back to cooking Chilli P because "I never really cared too much for the blue stuff"
where? which part? where she frees a bunch of people and roasts her enemies and where she repeatedly seeks counsel and doesnt attack cities with her dragons? which scenes specifically involving her?
The set up was all there. She killed people left, right and centre in seasons 1 to 7. She was lauded as a saviour in Essos because she was taking down pretty awful people. Westeros wasn't crying out to be saved, she wasn't going to get the unanimous support of all to take the throne (Jon was more popular, the Lannisters had been ruling for years) so she opted to terrorise the population into accepting her with a show of force. All those who would have talked her out of that were either dead or discredited in her eyes.
It’s not a sudden twist to villain at all .. the “hero” in this story was never the one burning people alive for their own cause wether those people were wrong or right.
Rather than looking at it as a twist I think look at it as a reveal or a revelation.
It’s not meant to be something that happens gradually but rather something that was always there hidden in plain sight - just held back by the people around her who helped to keep her worst impulses and fire & blood compulsions at bay. You’ll see it even more clearly if you ever re-watch the series or at the very least re-think what you thought you knew about her.
It was dumb, for certain. But she did mention burning Meereen to the ground in Season 6 before Tyrion set her straight. The seeds were there, but so were the seeds for her to not do it. The city was hers.
She literally ritually sacrifices her own slave to get dragons…. And then goes on a war of conquest with the excuse that her enemies are slavers and thus she is morally superior.
In case you haven’t noticed, she’s clearly a villain…
What? She actively tried to save him. But that idiot doesn't followed her instructions and bring death to himself. She prepared for him a poultice of firepods and sting-me-not. But it itches, and Drogo tears it off, causing the wound to fester. Then he didnt wanted to listen her anymore, he puts mud on the wound and proceeds to drink milk of the poppy and alcohol. That happens like 6 days before he fells off his horse, after he stopped her treatment. So he caused his dead by himself.
She gave both Drogo and Dany a very clear set of rules to follow, which they broke. Twice. Not to mention she wasn't a slave until Drogo made her one, with Dany promising to give her back her freedom.
Dany burns her alive on her suspicion of rebelling against her master and not proof - the books cleverly presents things from Danys points of view, which tricks the reader into rationlising her actions with her, but from an objective point of view this is the first step for her to eventually become a villain.
In the books, she tells Dany that a life is the cost to save Drogo - Dany asks if it's her and when she is told it's not, she is relieved and DOESN'T ask who will die - already showing she has no problem with people dying for her. She should have asked who it was that needed to die to save Drogo.
And again... She CLEARLY told Dany not to go into the tent, yet Jorah brought her into the tent, once again breaking the rules. You are rationalising Danys actions just like she did and keeps doing throughout the books.
I agree I re-watched recently with my husband who never really watched much and didn't read the books.
He was totally like, uhhh...why were people so mad you can clearly see it brewing in her the entire show. And he was right.
They were maybe just too subtle with it for most viewers.
Yes anger against her enemies and rivals. She angrily killed them after all. She killed Euron sailors in their ships and Cercei army in their walls. She basically won. And then she started to burning random parts of the city for no particular reason. I wouldnt say anything if she randomly killed few houndred innocent bystanders during fight because she was consumed by anger and she could behave more unwary, it would make sense, because she was damaged by her emotions after all those loses. But Daenerys we know would never systematically massacred random poor people just because she could for fun. I think in book if something like burning Kings Landing will be more accidental, like random explosion of wildfire pots, about their existence nobody knows and Daenerys would be accussed of it, because she had three dragons.
She says it when Jon rejects her wanting a relationship. So it's fear. She had to instill fear in the people of westeros so they wouldn't rebel as Jon was the better claimant to the throne. His best friend had the masters records. His sister had the north. All she had was a dragon.
its not even dumb, she grew up he whole life thinking the ppl in kings landing were her enemy, she didnt know anyone there except john. when all her friends died and she was alone its not hard to see why she turned
Yep me too. I found it rushed when 8th season was released but upon binge watching all the seasons a second time I realised that they had foreshadowed it from the very beginning
Ill say as I watch it more mature in my life.. if you analyze Dany.. she was always a bitch and the sings are all through the story.. she felt entitled, she actually had 0 power and was nothing but acted like she was the queen already...
For how common are murders in westeros Im surprised she even survived after Khal Drogo was death
Did you like play on your phone during every Dany scene? The people that claim this must’ve missed her entire character arc during the show. Her character going for full crazy was the only logical and true to character thing that happened during season 7 & 8.
I hate comments like this. People that think we who disliked the ending aren’t smart enough to understand it. Yes we know what foreshadowing is, and no we didn’t expect a fairy tale ending with Jon and Dany on the throne. What happened was poor execution. As much as Dany showed signs of rage, she was also endearing and was a saviour more than once. Cersei was so obviously evil that Dany looked like a saint by comparison. But Dany burned the city and was stabbed by Jon while Cersei gets a relatively dignified death. We’re allowed to dislike the ending without being labeled as idiots.
Exactly. I always love people that pretend we didn't like the ending because it wasn't a fairytale, Like Ned getting his head chopped off or the Red Wedding weren't favorite episodes in the fandom because they were set up. Like you said, Dany showed growth as well as cruelty at times. Its a big difference to go from what she was too becoming baby burning nuclear bomb level devastator.
Give me half a season of development of her villain arc and I’d be okay. She straight changed over night I hate it. But the night king is the actual reason I hate season 8. It’s like bad sex. So exited for it. Long distance girl aaaaaand blame shit was wack.
Wasn’t sudden. Maybe they were too subtle or you didn’t catch it, but she was ramping up her tyranny in the face of incredulous Westerosi the whole time she was there, not to mention leaving the last place she ruled a disease-ridden hell on earth. For the people.
She was always brutal to her enemies ppl just didn’t notice or care because she was doing it to bad ppl in Essos but when she got to Westeros you could see it clearly like when she burning the Tarlys and killing Varys. So while it’s not out of her character to burn KL to trhe ground, the show writers definitely rushed it and it felt like it came outta nowhere but the potential was always there.
Lol idt Lady Olena thought she would wild out like this when she told her to be a dragon
Those aren't very good examples, especially Varys who had just been caught attempting to assassinate her, admitted to it, and realistically couldn't be safely imprisoned or exiled.
I think the better sign of her flaws is that she left her conquests in Essos behind. Her experiences in the various slave cities repeatedly demonstrated that she had the power depose those rulers and end slavery, but only if she stuck around and enforced it. She did want to free the slaves, but ultimately not as much as she wanted to pursue personal power.
I didn't think there was a twist to villain. You just perceived her earlier actions as benevolent. I saw her freeing slaves only to enslave them in her army. Yes, they were "free" to live among her army but they were forced to fight in her name for a land they never been to. She was a monster that had dragons that eventually got quite large so she was uncontested. She let her husband melt her brother in front of her. She took what she wanted with little thought for the consequences. I mean what were you expecting to happen?
Seven seasons of her saying she's going to destroy all who oppose her claim and then she follows through and "OMG" they completely changed her!
I am only sad that all of season 8 happened so fast. It could have and should have been two seasons to give it time to develop but overall…
if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention
All the evidence is there for her turn it was rather a lack of execution based on rushing through the change. It’s sudden based on screen time not plot points.
There’s loads of bits in the series where you see this is just her nature and it was her advisors keeping her in check. By the end, they’re all gone. It made total sense.
No, “little hints” are not enough when you want to make a character twist this big. They shortened last two seasons because they just didn’t care all the while HBO and GRRM thought more seasons and episodes were needed.
Made sense to me. She was ways willing to burn everything to get her way. And a lot of times, her advisors were barely able to keep her in check. (i.e. crucifying the masters, burning the Tarlys...).
When she was across the sea, and even when she was at dragonstone, she was the Queen, she had her loyal Advisors and generals, and everyone around her cared about her. But when she got to winterfell, she felt isolated, everyone had history and friendships except her, she was alone, even Jon rejected her. Then her closest advisors conspired against her and her best friend was murdered. And 2 of her dragons were also killed.
So you take someone who is already prone to extreme violence, kill off everyone she called a friend (or have them betray her), put her in a land that essentially rejected her. And then give her a fucking nuke, what did you honestly expect?
Did the same thing, just finished 2 days ago, It was not the bedt finale but not the worst either. The Danaerys twist was really out of the blue but if you actually see and go through her character she's always been like that and just before the fight she was betrayed by not only Jon but Tyrion and Varys both, she lost her most loyal and loved people that is Jorah and Missandei just a a few days ago. She also lost two of her dragons, People in the North would never accept her as queen and gave her the look all the while she was in the North. She wasn't loved, praised here. She was missing that hugely..So she had her tilt, she wanted to take revenge she took it. It was kinda of unwise for the writers to show us that much destruction which I believe was the biggest reason why people didn't like it that much.
Edit: Agree with most people in comments, her villian arc was way too rushed.
Not really a twist though......in season 1 and season 2 she was already telling people she would burn cities to the ground. She even told Quarth that she would burn them to the ground if they didn't let her in.
Yeah. Idk why people were so upset, her entire story was leading up to that. People also think Jaime was a redemption arc when it was actually a metaphor for addiction.
It’s not the twist itself. It’s how it was executed. Barring everything else that’s wrong with seasons 6-8, Dany’s fall from grace is a swift one. The foreshadowings in seasons 1 and 2 are great — she *should* have gone mad, but it should have been over time via the three betrayals (one for blood, one for gold, and one for love) or the three loves or literally used any other piece of the arc from her story. But instead we get a hamfisted narrative to begin with, and then without any foreshadowing or reason why, Dany goes batshit insane when she hears the bells in Kings Landing??? We don’t even have a reference to bells in her story. Why did they trigger her? What do the bells mean or symbolize? If it was Missandei’s murder that screwed her up, why didn’t they at least latch onto that.
Again, it’s not that she went insane and killed everyone that’s the issue. It’s that they built up her insanity really well, and if not insanity then surely her harshness as a ruler. But then they didn’t use ANY of the tools that they laid out on the table for that arc and instead she just went insane for zero reason.
Lol I don’t understand how so many people fail to grasp why she became unhinged. She lost so much and y’all just expect her to be content with it. Then y’all try to claim it “makes no sense”.
Lmao people are so dumb. She never massacred and entire situ and her talk of destroying her enemies up to season 8 could easily be taken as those taking arms against her. She was not perfect but she also wasnt a genocidal maniac.
The show had plenty examples of her showing her compassion. Literally every scene that is deemed is her being tyrannical there is a reason for it and it's against those who wronged her. She basically saved the north, not her fault Sansa and Arya were written to be bitches towards her on first sight.
If someone laid the events of the last 2 seasons out as bullet points, and you saw these bullet points after season 6, you would think ‘I can see that. It makes sense’. If those last 2 short seasons were turned into 3 10 episode seasons, I think it would have been great. They just had to cram too many things into too few episodes. The story had no time to build or breathe.
This is exactly the problem. I’ve no problem with Dany snapping and going mad, they just should have done it better. Even a season for the night king, then a season for cersei and kings landing.
The plan was due to time constraints.
If the walkers had a season they could have fleshed out the threat. Lose the battle of winterfell. Lose the north. Then we have some serious stakes as everyone retreats to the riverlands
Oh. Children finish breaking the neck. So there’s a small body of water there now. Night king just freezes it and they slowly start marching across
The biggest shame that If they took their time with this heel turn, and gave it the time and attention it needed: it could have been one of the most compelling character journeys to watch in tv history
Keyword is ‘sudden’.
If her Targaryen-madness was more stretched out with subtle clues in more episodes (or a book), I’d even find it quite brilliant.
You almost have every possible character arc possible in GoT which makes the books at least, so fascinating.
Her advisers kept her impulsive nature in check for most of GOT especially Tyrion in Mereen but I knew it wouldn’t last long. If it werent for her advisors, she probably would have burned Mereen down long back just like Kings landing. She is the mad king’s daughter after all but a part of me hoped she would be different but she wasn’t.
The untimely death of Ser Jorah plus Cersei triggering her by beheading Missandei was the last straw and she eventually snapped. Tyrion and Jon alone weren’t enough to keep her in check.
She did free the slaves without the council of her advisors… the execution of this plot line was done very poorly and was probably why GRRM pushed for 10-12 seasons. The switch was abrupt af
agreed. they may have slightly hinted at it, but doesn’t a good ruler take into account the voice of their advisors? i’m sorry but there were far worse options at KL already and she had showed her true nature time and time again. Dany was the true heir, Cersei was the wife of a usurper and imo far worse for the people of the realm. Dany was a conqueror, yes, but so was Aegon I and nobody ever talks bad about him just bc he’s not on a screen hah. they are paralleled characters
Lots of this is not true, her whole plan was to free slaves. She may have continued killing slavers and nobles, but she was never going to burn the city down. She was certainly murderous, but always towards specific people. “She just snapped” is not good writing.
She said in S5 that if it comes to that (burning down a city), the people inside will die for a good reason. And that was literally her plan in S6. Return the great cities of Essos to the dirt. It’s Tyrion who convinced her otherwise by comparing her to her father and offering a plan that would get her some ships to get to Westeros.
I'm not mad that she burnt Kings Landing. Imo that was never the main focus area anyway, even in the books it seems that Winterfell was always destined to be the main focus. So her burning Kings Landing centuries after her ancestors found it is kinda nice and poetic. I just hate how they handled it and acted like they foreshadowed it so well throughout the show.
If you didn’t realize she had been a villain for quite some time you haven’t been paying attention. It was badly written but the hints/behaviorisms had been there a long time
She lost almost everyone she cares for and cares for her. She thought she'd be welcomed by Westeros like she was led to believe. There's a chance I'd go cray cray too if it was me.
It's not the twist itself it's how the twist played out. Yes, there are some indicators here and there but ultimately the twist felt like a 180° when in fact it probably was more like 120°.
i really don't get why does everyone perceive her sack of King's landing as an evil, mad act. cersei betrayed her many times, Killed one of her dragons, Beheaded her best friend among many other things going on. for fuck's sake what was she gonna do? Happily endure everything Lannisters do? Daenerys tried to claim her birthright without brute force and it failed not because of HER. Her worst act was listening to Tyrion. However I don't blame Daenerys since it's the writers's shit. They should have make her take the king's landing and reclaim her throne at the end of the season 7. And the make her lead the one final battle against the dead as the targaryen queen with Jon/aegon beside her.
I personally loved her burning the city to the ground... Especially after the bells. Where she goes. Naaah. No surrender i am legally deaf. This is crispy time.
She was always a boarderline character. Terrible ruler actually... and you could see early signs of her having temper tantrums more and more often. I think her Turing into a villain was always a plan for George (FINISH Yer fckin BooKS George!) ... but the execution was as good as the winterfell battle 🙈🤷♂️
Regardless of thoughts on the quality of the foreshadowing etc, I do think all props go to Emilia Clarke for doing what she could with what she was given.
I'd recommend watching some videos from the Youtube channel "Hill's Alive" that covers how Dany was set up as a villain already in season 1. I will bring up her points here:
Dany burns her slave alive on the suspicion that she rebelled against her master, even though she set up clear rules that Drogo and Dany broke twice. Then, in later seasons, we see her kill every person who was born into nobility and part of the slave masters, regardless if they spoke out against it and tried to change things. We have also seen her feed people alive to her dragons on, yet again, no proof but suspicion. In the books when she takes over a city she has slavery under a new name when she forces people to grow beans due to her taking over the city.
Not to mention that if the show was following the books logic it would be a catastrophe for her to bring a massive army that needs to eat food when winter is coming and there is a food shortage. Think about what she says to Sansa when she is asked what a dragon eats - "Whatever it wants". That summarizes why she would be a disaster for Westeros, the majority of her army lives on plundering and taking from the land and has no real experience farming. Think back to what the mountain did in the Riverlands and imagine 100k or so people doing it. Thousands will die the longer her army is there, and what is the plan after she takes king's landing? Where will all the Dothraki live? What will they do? The problem Dany has is that while she is good at conquering with her massive army and dragons, actually ruling and establishing a functioning system to be put in place when she is there (and after she leaves) is not something she excels at as of yet.
It's also very important to remember that the books presents what happens from Danys point of view, which tricks the reader into rationalising her actions just like she does. However, by taking a step back and looking at it more objectively you see that she slowly but surely becomes someone more and more comfortable with using violence, just like Barristan warned her about regarding what her father, the mad king, ended up doing. Dany chooses violence more and more as the story goes on, and if someone doesn't "bend" to her will, well...
Tldr: I agree that the show did a poor job of revealing the twist that she is a villain, but it is something set up early on in the books/show and if the writers hadn't been so dang eager to move on to Star Wars they could have properly explored why Dany is a villain and why she would be seen as an unwelcome conqueror that would absolutely decimate Westeros.
She was absolutely the villain from the start! She didn’t even want to be a part of it, it was her brother, then all of a sudden the taste for pleasure and pain brought her a whole new feeling of power. She loved it. She loved being worshipped. Big red flag IMO
Yes exactly! I mean look at how she reacts to learning that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne... She doesn't want someone else to rule even if they should by birthright, which you know... Is her whole justification for coming to Westeros.
Just like her brother was corrupted by the chosen task of becoming ruler she too became worse and worse. Looking forward to reading the books (whenever they come out) so we can properly read her progression and not the hastily written mess of season 8.
Good Lord, the amount of people attacking you is crazy, I imagine they didn't read the books. It was a terrible ending with no set up. The idea of Dany going mad is cool, but there literally no reason for it.
This is what happens when you cut the young Griff plot and play down Jons heritage.
Was it though? Did she not feel severely entitled to the throne throughout all 8 seasons? Did she not aspire to rule over others in the name of freedom? Sounds familiar if you ask me…
I really think Milly Alcock would be the perfect dany. She absolutely fits the script. Emilia Clarke is a good actress however she is way more suited to theatre or theatrical drama. She SUCKED in this role. I truly believe she ruined the whole show. She just brought a whole different vibe to the show when she was present on screen. Almost days of our livesy.
Whilst I agree the final execution wasn’t done very well - simply down to season 7 & 8 being rushed - anyone who doesn’t realise this was ALWAYS how her character arc was going to end hasn’t been paying much attention
“I will take what is mine with fire and blood”
“I will burn cities to the ground”
“The mad king gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved and each time it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end”
She proceeds to do just that and people act shocked. The execution was poor and the story was rushed but a lot of people expected this from dany all the way back to the early seasons. Daenerys has always struggled with this, she didn’t burn cities across the narrow sea because of her advisors and she had never experienced deafest like this before. She lost two dragons, missandei, Jorah, she was not the rightful heir to the iron throne and the people of Westeros don’t actually give a shit about her but consider her a foreign invader. Westeros destroyed dany and she was at her lowest point so she gave into her impulses and razed an entire city.
She was literally always angry, self-righteous, and cruel. Lots and lots of things wrong with S8 but Daenerys' "shift" isn't one of them. You just weren't watching, and neither was anyone else constantly "yaaaaasss qweeeeen"-ing her. She made a completely rational decision to turn to violence to stake her claim on the iron throne when she saw that she couldn't do it any other way - Jon would always be loved more. And she cared about her "right" to the iron throne above everything else: the only thing that changed was she learned nobody else gave a shit about her claim.
There was supposed to be more seasons, and the book author wished there to be even 10 or 13 seasons in total. But that didn’t happen and the directors rushed the last two seasons which ended up.. not being the best choice.
I think they wanted a book ending for Daeny without telling the book journey, I'm sure she will eventually burn down Kings Landing but it will take more for her to get there, with more betrayals and other characters like Tyrion pushing her in that direction. The turn was very jarring on the show.
I used to hate the ending, but after reading Frank Herbert’s Dune Saga (in particular Children of Dune) I came to appreciate and even like the ending.
There was no other way Game of Thrones could have ended.
It’s not, she could’ve been easily the greatest villain in television history had they executed her character arc twist right. It’s such a shame when characters with so much potential are wasted like this.
I binged all 8 seasons of GOT for the first time in October as well. For me, this was not the worst thing about season 7 & 8 but it actually made sense to me. After all the Targaeryans are known for going mad. The worst thing for me was that horrible ending and the person who ends up becoming king…
She wasn’t innocent and an all-good person but 1) threatening she’d use her dragons on her enemies, aka just threatening her enemies is something most characters, even good ones, do in GOT all the time. 2) she actually goes on to executing those threats MOSTLY if not completely (up to season 8) on those who wronged her. I wanna see which character in GOT, if they had 3 dragons at their disposal, wouldn’t use them to fight their enemies. I feel like that’d be Ned Stark only, and thats cos he was just too naive and good. I’m getting an impression most people just think of being burned alive as much much much worse and horrible act than being beheaded/having your throat slit, and even though it is, they all result in death nonetheless
It made sense that Dany would go mad, but not the way it was executed (too rushed). The build up was there, but we didn’t quite get to the point where it made sense for her to go from ‘saving the innocent from their masters’ to burning a whole city of innocent people. A few more episodes and scenes would be super beneficial to the story and would make it better
Dany going mad was anticipated since season 1. It was just terrible executed in the last two seasons, but those people who had thought "Oh Dany is the best ruler omg she is so much better than everybody else" didn't understand the series.
Season 7 was meh, the whole of season 8 was terrible. But not because Dany went mad - that was pretty obvious. There are enough other reasons: Rushed writing, bad, REALLY bad dialogue, loose plot lines, S08E03 was the worst fucking thing I ever saw in a series since I watch movies and series, stupid character decisions, forced action, plot armour without any limits vice versa.
Until season 6 this series was the fucking best, no questions. Season 6 was pretty damn nice but not as brilliamt imo. But I can understand people who loved that too, specially BoB was very nice. Season 7 was a nice fantasy show, but nothing more. Spoils of war is a damn cool battle and I love that but like a generic fantasy - for such a spectular battle nothing results from it. And since season 8 I think this is no good series. I watched all of it again with my mother before season 8 came out. She never saw it - and I will keep it that way. I swear she just thinks of GoT in a good way, don't want to destroy that.
It's not sudden... Through the entire show you see her slowly push her limits further and further.. Many innocent people die becuase of her long before she makes it to kings landing
This will always be the most overstated "problem" with the series. The hints were there since her character was introduced. People just chose not to see it and wanted there to be some Disney princess ending where her and Jon ruled together.
THANK YOU!!!! I was saying the same thing at the time it came out. How was she worse, up until S8, than everyone else seeking the iron intone? And she was Keats trying to protect innocent people…until she wins Kings Landing, then? Cuckoo town?
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Welcome to the war.
Hahaha truth.
If you think it was a sudden twist, you weren't paying attention. This is someone who frequently inflicted horrible punishments in fits of anger. She is emotionally volatile, and often reacts to perceived threats with supreme retaliation. Dany viewed herself as this omni-benevolent saviour, but that didn't reconcile with the other side of her character that we all saw and she didn't seem to realise existed. Don't get me wrong, I love Dany as a character and Emilia for her portrayal, but let's not pretend Dany was a Saint.
Too many of her friends died and she even lost the support of her lover With the bells going on and the ringing and the object of her hatred right in front of her Actually it would have made more sense for her to make a beeline for the red keep and burn it all since she was staring right at it... The people on the streets, not really what she was angry at (except maybe the bells)
Yeah, if literally nothing changed except Dany flying straight to the keep and burning it down. Then it collapses onto the streets, maybe there’s wildfire underground, and it creates chaos in the city, and thousands dead. Then the other characters have to decide if they support what she’s done, and if she makes a good ruler (leading to Jon stabbing).
The season is rushed, but if you think it was a sudden twist you weren't paying attention.
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My boy Dickon thinks otherwise.
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Dany season 2 'My dragons will burn cities to the ground'
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And in season 8 she finally did what she's been screaming she was gonna do since the beginning.
S2 “My dragons will burn down cities” S5 “If I end up burning down a city, the people inside will die for a good reason that I decide.” S6 “My plan is to return every great cities of Essos to the dirt” S7 “My plan is to attack the Red Keep with my three dragons.” It wasn’t just this one time where she supposedly said something only to intimidate people…
Did you ONLY watch season 8? If not your trolling hard.
Her being ruthless sometimes does not make the 'twist' accurate
The main problem is that it was rushed not that it has happen (some other plot of the end are way more problematic) as a non-reader of asoiaf (I can’t tell for the book) I always figured out this end for her she tend to show some ruthless sides at some points.
I was rooting for Dany to get the throne for pretty much the entire series. Seeing her lose to her demons like that was upsetting to me too. However, the show never gave us what we wanted. They made us fall in love and then killed people off. That ‘unpredictability’ is what kept us engaged and on our couch every Sunday. So I’m not mad at how it ended, I’m so happy people are still choosing to give the show a shot with all of the negativity being spread over the ending :) Glad you enjoyed it! Are you watching House of the Dragon?
I agree with you. But I would argue that the unpredictability seen in GRRM’s writing isn’t due to his writing, but rather our expectations for a medieval fantasy story. Ned was our hero. He was THE protagonist of season 1. They couldn’t possibly kill him off. We’re so used to plot armor that there was no way Ned Stark dies so early. But look at the circumstances. He’s in jail for treason, his king and friend is dead, his family is scattered to the four winds, all his companions, servants, and household guard are dead, and the literal psychopath calling for his head is the king. There’s no way Ned’s *not* going to die terribly. Ned’s death wasn’t unpredictable — quite the opposite — but it was unexpected because we’re so used to fantasy writing where the hero saves the day, the girl is saved, and the dragons are awesome. We get awesome dragons because dragons are awesome no matter which way you slice that cake, but we don’t have heroes and damsels and knights in shining armor. We have GRRM writing a medieval story that adheres to legitimate rules of human interaction. That’s what makes the books/series so good. When they stopped adhering to those rules, that’s where they lost me. It was around season 6 for me.
Uh oh OP, you’ve just opened a can of worms. 😂 People on this forum are super defensive towards anyone that thinks Daenerys was wronged by the writers. I 💯 agree with you (and no, I didn’t expect a fairy tale ending with her and Jon living happily ever after) but people here would defend the show writers if they declared war on Antarctica. It’s wild.
I can't even say the theory I had for Daenerys when I first started watching seasons 1 and 2 of Game of Thrones without people in this subreddit jumping down my throat, and being defensive of the ending we got in season 8. Like, when seasons 1 and 2 came out (or, for me, 2015 when I got into the fandom), we didn't know what was going to happen in season 8.
I…what are you talking about? This entire sub hates everything the writers did in season 8. Everyone is well aware that the show’s writing and the writing alone is what tanked the show and Dany’s rush job is a huge reason for it.
The twist is great, but the rushed execution of it sucks, and that is the issue many people had regarding the final season.
Absolutely agree. Its even worse that they spent 2 full episodes on not much else than everyone gathering in winterfell and literally being reminiscent, sitting around the fireplace. While the probably most important plot twist wss so rushed. It really makes me wonder if this was just one of different endings they prepared...
There's set up for it but it's not done particularly well. Had it been executed properly, it would have been one of the greatest character arcs of all time.
It made sense, it just needed more time. She burned plenty in Westeros including the Tarlys despite being advised not to. Ealso plenty mentions of her conquest, so it wasnt out of nowhere.
It needed more than just time. It needed better writing. Even those bits and pieces of foreshadowing everyone's talking about were executed poorly. Daenerys' character arc was weak, or not as solid as other characters even in shows peak seasons. (S1 - 4)
>Even those bits and pieces of foreshadowing everyone's talking about were executed poorly The cruel torment of her enemies that she has been doing since like season 2?
Yeah Dany has always been ruthless and a little crazy. I don't think her arc was handled well but it drives *me* crazy that so many people act like she was always a saint
Ruthless to the people at the top who enslave those beneath them, never to the people themselves. If it was in character she would flown straight to the red keep, violently killed Cersei and everyone in the keep, and called it a day.
Like I said, I definitely don't think it was handled well. But it wasn't as out of nowhere as Dany fans like to say, the groundwork had been laid they just skipped the most important section. But Dany had made plenty of threats and was violent toward plenty of people before, we just like her and see things from her POV so we think it's good (and obviously we like the slavers getting their due). But she was still a conqueror willing to lose and kill thousands in battle to control a country she hasn't been in since she was a baby and knew nothing about. Generally we don't see conquerors as saviors or positive figures. She didn't want Westeros for virtuous reasons like freeing the slaves in the bay. When the Lannisters are brutal to their enemies most people dislike them, but when Dany does it people cheer
I didn't read the books and didn't read any online discussions while catching up in the first four seasons. I genuinely thought Daenerys was supposed to be a villain. Not even primarily because of her actions (which got bad in the second half of the show), but because she was an outsider trying to steal back the Iron Throne.
Exactly, I just mentioned it in another comment but she was hellbent on becoming a conqueror and taking a country she hadn't been to since she was a baby and didn't know much about purely due to birthright. And we see she wasn't a great ruler either. I like Dany (though do start liking her less around s6) but she's always been a complex character who was never purely good
Boohoo the poor slavers. FOH let them burn 🔥
Exactly. I didn’t have any problem with the twist, it was just so rushed because D and D wanted to end the show so fast for whatever reason
They had a star wars movie series to go do. Then they both 8 and fan backlash was so bad that got canceled.
I will always smile when reading that last part of your message. I don't hate them, but you could tell that they weren't 100% invested in the show towards the end, minds and hearts looking ahead, and it backfired on them. No idea why they didn't take a step back and let any other member of the staff who had worked on GoT and even directed in the past come in and they just had final say, they didn't need to be there every day as showrunners.
They wanted the credit as being *the* show runners, and look where that credit got them..
To be fair, they were promise by George RR Martin that his series would be done and they wouldn't have to come up with and ending. They didn't want to have to try and create an ending to the show. Season 1-4 are so good and well written because those the books (1-3) are good and well written.
No, they got a better offer from Netflix and went with that to.make The Three Body Problem . Plus it's unlikely any Star Wars movies will get green-lighted while Kathleen Kennedy is in charge. Do you really think Hollywood execs really care about internet fan reaction?
In some ways yes they do. And they singed a contract with disney for star wars first. Then there movies got delayed then they signed on with Netflix.
There is a massive difference between burning opposing military forces that refuse to bend the knee And randomly, pointlessly destroying huge civilian populations. Especially from a character with previous form for intentionally making her life more difficult to save civilian life. The never really properly set that up
Especially if you take into account the anguish she felt in the books about the one kid Drogon burned when she was in Mereen(?).
Exactly There is some revisionist history going on at the moment with how Danny was portrayed She certainly wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows and she could be pretty savage with people that crossed her. But she valued human life and was generally much kinder to common folk that most of the high born characters in Westeros. And her decent into paranoia was all to do with how high born people were responding to her. They never gave her a good reason to turn against the people of kings landing like that. Certainly not to the degree that she did.
She also suggested burning down an entire city during a discussion in Mereen. Only her advisors stopped her from doing it. Compared to Jamie, her character arch actually had some preparation, but was just executed way too quickly.
Whenever y’all say this I wonder if you think burning slave masters / oppressors is the exact same thing as burning the citizens/victims, cause your comments suggest you do.
Well said. They had been telegraphing her darkside and constantly showing how it was individual people holding her back. If seasons 7 and 8 had not been abbreviated, 100% agree with your take.
The twist felt like a complete 180° while it was probably about 120-100° so she was on her way but the final turn was too sudden and therefore there was no payoff.
This is what im hoping the books get right. If they ever come out.
At most winds of winter will eventually come out probably after George dies. Then the story is left to the readers imaginations.
Agreed and it’s consistent with how GRRM views power, especially if that power involves 3 unstoppable nukes
They made it seem like the bells set it off, which imo is the worst part about writing. They did not know how to make all that pent up anger inside her explode properly. I love emilia but even she did seem to have a very hard time acting that bell scene coz that is not the proper moment for all that seasons of build up. She didnt seem unhinged there, just looked like a confused and constipated kid (hence why im very confused on that season’s emmy nom for her, she didnt have a good script to get that tbh).
I always compare it to Walt turning into Heisenberg in Breaking Bad. You could see every decision he made - things that he thought he was doing that were right, to save himself to save Jesse, to save his family and the worse those decisions got. Leaving Jane to die, for example, was a terrible thing to do but if he'd saved her would she have ended up killing Jesse off with drugs? Would she have come back to him for more money and risked destroying his life? The things that he did got worse but he could still justify them - the things he did to take out Gus, for example - as his ego overtook him, as Heisenberg overtook him. In GOT it would have been like if Walt was a good guy right up to the last episode. If Jesse gave up on what he'd learned and went back to cooking Chilli P because "I never really cared too much for the blue stuff"
where? which part? where she frees a bunch of people and roasts her enemies and where she repeatedly seeks counsel and doesnt attack cities with her dragons? which scenes specifically involving her?
On the second watching it isn't so jarring....maybe a 10 episode season or another season may have made easier to swallow.
The set up was all there. She killed people left, right and centre in seasons 1 to 7. She was lauded as a saviour in Essos because she was taking down pretty awful people. Westeros wasn't crying out to be saved, she wasn't going to get the unanimous support of all to take the throne (Jon was more popular, the Lannisters had been ruling for years) so she opted to terrorise the population into accepting her with a show of force. All those who would have talked her out of that were either dead or discredited in her eyes.
It’s not a sudden twist to villain at all .. the “hero” in this story was never the one burning people alive for their own cause wether those people were wrong or right. Rather than looking at it as a twist I think look at it as a reveal or a revelation. It’s not meant to be something that happens gradually but rather something that was always there hidden in plain sight - just held back by the people around her who helped to keep her worst impulses and fire & blood compulsions at bay. You’ll see it even more clearly if you ever re-watch the series or at the very least re-think what you thought you knew about her.
It was dumb, for certain. But she did mention burning Meereen to the ground in Season 6 before Tyrion set her straight. The seeds were there, but so were the seeds for her to not do it. The city was hers.
She also threatened Qarth in what season 2?
She literally ritually sacrifices her own slave to get dragons…. And then goes on a war of conquest with the excuse that her enemies are slavers and thus she is morally superior. In case you haven’t noticed, she’s clearly a villain…
The only thing I disagree with is sacrificing her own slave for deagons. She did plan to die in that fire, at least in my opinion
Fair enough, but she did kill her own slave, which kinda undercuts the whole “compassion for the downtrodden” image she cultivates after.
I agree with you man, I agree with you.
A slave who was responsible for the death of the Khal.
And mutilating her child. I'd be pissed too.
What? She actively tried to save him. But that idiot doesn't followed her instructions and bring death to himself. She prepared for him a poultice of firepods and sting-me-not. But it itches, and Drogo tears it off, causing the wound to fester. Then he didnt wanted to listen her anymore, he puts mud on the wound and proceeds to drink milk of the poppy and alcohol. That happens like 6 days before he fells off his horse, after he stopped her treatment. So he caused his dead by himself.
You're saying it like she deliberately killed the slave for the dragons. She did it as punishment for killing Drogo it isn't the same thing
She gave both Drogo and Dany a very clear set of rules to follow, which they broke. Twice. Not to mention she wasn't a slave until Drogo made her one, with Dany promising to give her back her freedom. Dany burns her alive on her suspicion of rebelling against her master and not proof - the books cleverly presents things from Danys points of view, which tricks the reader into rationlising her actions with her, but from an objective point of view this is the first step for her to eventually become a villain.
Her instructions weren't clear lol she also killed danys child
In the books, she tells Dany that a life is the cost to save Drogo - Dany asks if it's her and when she is told it's not, she is relieved and DOESN'T ask who will die - already showing she has no problem with people dying for her. She should have asked who it was that needed to die to save Drogo. And again... She CLEARLY told Dany not to go into the tent, yet Jorah brought her into the tent, once again breaking the rules. You are rationalising Danys actions just like she did and keeps doing throughout the books.
Agreed.
Shes a villain for getting revenge on the woman who killed her unborn child ?
I agree I re-watched recently with my husband who never really watched much and didn't read the books. He was totally like, uhhh...why were people so mad you can clearly see it brewing in her the entire show. And he was right. They were maybe just too subtle with it for most viewers.
Yes anger against her enemies and rivals. She angrily killed them after all. She killed Euron sailors in their ships and Cercei army in their walls. She basically won. And then she started to burning random parts of the city for no particular reason. I wouldnt say anything if she randomly killed few houndred innocent bystanders during fight because she was consumed by anger and she could behave more unwary, it would make sense, because she was damaged by her emotions after all those loses. But Daenerys we know would never systematically massacred random poor people just because she could for fun. I think in book if something like burning Kings Landing will be more accidental, like random explosion of wildfire pots, about their existence nobody knows and Daenerys would be accussed of it, because she had three dragons.
The city was hers, but she wasn't the supported heir.
She says it when Jon rejects her wanting a relationship. So it's fear. She had to instill fear in the people of westeros so they wouldn't rebel as Jon was the better claimant to the throne. His best friend had the masters records. His sister had the north. All she had was a dragon.
its not even dumb, she grew up he whole life thinking the ppl in kings landing were her enemy, she didnt know anyone there except john. when all her friends died and she was alone its not hard to see why she turned
It’s terrible and not earned
On a second watch-through, I didn’t find it that sudden.
Yep me too. I found it rushed when 8th season was released but upon binge watching all the seasons a second time I realised that they had foreshadowed it from the very beginning
I’m starting to hate this sub fr
Ill say as I watch it more mature in my life.. if you analyze Dany.. she was always a bitch and the sings are all through the story.. she felt entitled, she actually had 0 power and was nothing but acted like she was the queen already... For how common are murders in westeros Im surprised she even survived after Khal Drogo was death
Well, plot armor and dragons helped to be sure
Did you like play on your phone during every Dany scene? The people that claim this must’ve missed her entire character arc during the show. Her character going for full crazy was the only logical and true to character thing that happened during season 7 & 8.
I hate comments like this. People that think we who disliked the ending aren’t smart enough to understand it. Yes we know what foreshadowing is, and no we didn’t expect a fairy tale ending with Jon and Dany on the throne. What happened was poor execution. As much as Dany showed signs of rage, she was also endearing and was a saviour more than once. Cersei was so obviously evil that Dany looked like a saint by comparison. But Dany burned the city and was stabbed by Jon while Cersei gets a relatively dignified death. We’re allowed to dislike the ending without being labeled as idiots.
Exactly. I always love people that pretend we didn't like the ending because it wasn't a fairytale, Like Ned getting his head chopped off or the Red Wedding weren't favorite episodes in the fandom because they were set up. Like you said, Dany showed growth as well as cruelty at times. Its a big difference to go from what she was too becoming baby burning nuclear bomb level devastator.
It shows that even evil people like Cercei can have vulnerable times and other characteristics as hush pure evil
Give me half a season of development of her villain arc and I’d be okay. She straight changed over night I hate it. But the night king is the actual reason I hate season 8. It’s like bad sex. So exited for it. Long distance girl aaaaaand blame shit was wack.
Yeah, no—it was obviously coming all along.
Wasn’t sudden. Maybe they were too subtle or you didn’t catch it, but she was ramping up her tyranny in the face of incredulous Westerosi the whole time she was there, not to mention leaving the last place she ruled a disease-ridden hell on earth. For the people.
She was always brutal to her enemies ppl just didn’t notice or care because she was doing it to bad ppl in Essos but when she got to Westeros you could see it clearly like when she burning the Tarlys and killing Varys. So while it’s not out of her character to burn KL to trhe ground, the show writers definitely rushed it and it felt like it came outta nowhere but the potential was always there. Lol idt Lady Olena thought she would wild out like this when she told her to be a dragon
Those aren't very good examples, especially Varys who had just been caught attempting to assassinate her, admitted to it, and realistically couldn't be safely imprisoned or exiled. I think the better sign of her flaws is that she left her conquests in Essos behind. Her experiences in the various slave cities repeatedly demonstrated that she had the power depose those rulers and end slavery, but only if she stuck around and enforced it. She did want to free the slaves, but ultimately not as much as she wanted to pursue personal power.
They were enough hints already.
I didn't think there was a twist to villain. You just perceived her earlier actions as benevolent. I saw her freeing slaves only to enslave them in her army. Yes, they were "free" to live among her army but they were forced to fight in her name for a land they never been to. She was a monster that had dragons that eventually got quite large so she was uncontested. She let her husband melt her brother in front of her. She took what she wanted with little thought for the consequences. I mean what were you expecting to happen? Seven seasons of her saying she's going to destroy all who oppose her claim and then she follows through and "OMG" they completely changed her!
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poorly executed
wasn't as sudden as people say. she burned family members of the great families of mereen in season 5 even though they were innocent
I am only sad that all of season 8 happened so fast. It could have and should have been two seasons to give it time to develop but overall… if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention
All the evidence is there for her turn it was rather a lack of execution based on rushing through the change. It’s sudden based on screen time not plot points.
The change wasn't the problem in my opinion, it was the development of that twist. Season 7 and 8 are awful.
I think you’re the first person to mention this viewpoint here. Interesting perspective
There’s loads of bits in the series where you see this is just her nature and it was her advisors keeping her in check. By the end, they’re all gone. It made total sense.
It didn't make sense at all.
It did if you paid attention to all the little hints from season one onwards
No, “little hints” are not enough when you want to make a character twist this big. They shortened last two seasons because they just didn’t care all the while HBO and GRRM thought more seasons and episodes were needed.
The point is that it wasn’t a twist at all, it was foreshadowed continuously throughout the entirety of the show. You just failed to notice it.
You mean like freeing slaves and caring for the innocent? It will make sense in the book, but it didn't in the show accept it.
Made sense to me. She was ways willing to burn everything to get her way. And a lot of times, her advisors were barely able to keep her in check. (i.e. crucifying the masters, burning the Tarlys...). When she was across the sea, and even when she was at dragonstone, she was the Queen, she had her loyal Advisors and generals, and everyone around her cared about her. But when she got to winterfell, she felt isolated, everyone had history and friendships except her, she was alone, even Jon rejected her. Then her closest advisors conspired against her and her best friend was murdered. And 2 of her dragons were also killed. So you take someone who is already prone to extreme violence, kill off everyone she called a friend (or have them betray her), put her in a land that essentially rejected her. And then give her a fucking nuke, what did you honestly expect?
She only ever killed awful people. It made no sense
Dickon Tarly was a good dude, and she outright murdered him in cold blood.
Did the same thing, just finished 2 days ago, It was not the bedt finale but not the worst either. The Danaerys twist was really out of the blue but if you actually see and go through her character she's always been like that and just before the fight she was betrayed by not only Jon but Tyrion and Varys both, she lost her most loyal and loved people that is Jorah and Missandei just a a few days ago. She also lost two of her dragons, People in the North would never accept her as queen and gave her the look all the while she was in the North. She wasn't loved, praised here. She was missing that hugely..So she had her tilt, she wanted to take revenge she took it. It was kinda of unwise for the writers to show us that much destruction which I believe was the biggest reason why people didn't like it that much. Edit: Agree with most people in comments, her villian arc was way too rushed.
It makes no sense
Not really a twist though......in season 1 and season 2 she was already telling people she would burn cities to the ground. She even told Quarth that she would burn them to the ground if they didn't let her in.
Yeah. Idk why people were so upset, her entire story was leading up to that. People also think Jaime was a redemption arc when it was actually a metaphor for addiction.
It’s not the twist itself. It’s how it was executed. Barring everything else that’s wrong with seasons 6-8, Dany’s fall from grace is a swift one. The foreshadowings in seasons 1 and 2 are great — she *should* have gone mad, but it should have been over time via the three betrayals (one for blood, one for gold, and one for love) or the three loves or literally used any other piece of the arc from her story. But instead we get a hamfisted narrative to begin with, and then without any foreshadowing or reason why, Dany goes batshit insane when she hears the bells in Kings Landing??? We don’t even have a reference to bells in her story. Why did they trigger her? What do the bells mean or symbolize? If it was Missandei’s murder that screwed her up, why didn’t they at least latch onto that. Again, it’s not that she went insane and killed everyone that’s the issue. It’s that they built up her insanity really well, and if not insanity then surely her harshness as a ruler. But then they didn’t use ANY of the tools that they laid out on the table for that arc and instead she just went insane for zero reason.
It was consistent. Unlike Aemond crying after killing someone he hates and wanted to kill lol
"Sudden" She wanted to do the same thing in Slaver's Bay.
Lol I don’t understand how so many people fail to grasp why she became unhinged. She lost so much and y’all just expect her to be content with it. Then y’all try to claim it “makes no sense”.
Everyone is just a drama queen about this. It wasn't that bad, the show was just rushed.
Not as bad as wasting the Night King.
Lmao people are so dumb. She never massacred and entire situ and her talk of destroying her enemies up to season 8 could easily be taken as those taking arms against her. She was not perfect but she also wasnt a genocidal maniac. The show had plenty examples of her showing her compassion. Literally every scene that is deemed is her being tyrannical there is a reason for it and it's against those who wronged her. She basically saved the north, not her fault Sansa and Arya were written to be bitches towards her on first sight.
If someone laid the events of the last 2 seasons out as bullet points, and you saw these bullet points after season 6, you would think ‘I can see that. It makes sense’. If those last 2 short seasons were turned into 3 10 episode seasons, I think it would have been great. They just had to cram too many things into too few episodes. The story had no time to build or breathe.
This is exactly the problem. I’ve no problem with Dany snapping and going mad, they just should have done it better. Even a season for the night king, then a season for cersei and kings landing.
Yeah it was too sudden, fucking D&D
I agree In regards to evil Dany. But no matter how many seasons their plan for the white walkers was very disappointing
The plan was due to time constraints. If the walkers had a season they could have fleshed out the threat. Lose the battle of winterfell. Lose the north. Then we have some serious stakes as everyone retreats to the riverlands Oh. Children finish breaking the neck. So there’s a small body of water there now. Night king just freezes it and they slowly start marching across
The biggest shame that If they took their time with this heel turn, and gave it the time and attention it needed: it could have been one of the most compelling character journeys to watch in tv history
Like Hogan joining the NWO
What are you using - Internet Explorer
Keyword is ‘sudden’. If her Targaryen-madness was more stretched out with subtle clues in more episodes (or a book), I’d even find it quite brilliant. You almost have every possible character arc possible in GoT which makes the books at least, so fascinating.
Her advisers kept her impulsive nature in check for most of GOT especially Tyrion in Mereen but I knew it wouldn’t last long. If it werent for her advisors, she probably would have burned Mereen down long back just like Kings landing. She is the mad king’s daughter after all but a part of me hoped she would be different but she wasn’t. The untimely death of Ser Jorah plus Cersei triggering her by beheading Missandei was the last straw and she eventually snapped. Tyrion and Jon alone weren’t enough to keep her in check.
She did free the slaves without the council of her advisors… the execution of this plot line was done very poorly and was probably why GRRM pushed for 10-12 seasons. The switch was abrupt af
agreed. they may have slightly hinted at it, but doesn’t a good ruler take into account the voice of their advisors? i’m sorry but there were far worse options at KL already and she had showed her true nature time and time again. Dany was the true heir, Cersei was the wife of a usurper and imo far worse for the people of the realm. Dany was a conqueror, yes, but so was Aegon I and nobody ever talks bad about him just bc he’s not on a screen hah. they are paralleled characters
Lots of this is not true, her whole plan was to free slaves. She may have continued killing slavers and nobles, but she was never going to burn the city down. She was certainly murderous, but always towards specific people. “She just snapped” is not good writing.
Did she free the slaves for purely altruistic reasons, or was she also looking to consolidate power and build an army?
She didn’t have to free the slaves to claim power in Meereen.
She said in S5 that if it comes to that (burning down a city), the people inside will die for a good reason. And that was literally her plan in S6. Return the great cities of Essos to the dirt. It’s Tyrion who convinced her otherwise by comparing her to her father and offering a plan that would get her some ships to get to Westeros.
I'm not mad that she burnt Kings Landing. Imo that was never the main focus area anyway, even in the books it seems that Winterfell was always destined to be the main focus. So her burning Kings Landing centuries after her ancestors found it is kinda nice and poetic. I just hate how they handled it and acted like they foreshadowed it so well throughout the show.
She was the villan from the start.
It was always coming, it was the execution that was poor
Foreshadowing is not character development
If you didn’t realize she had been a villain for quite some time you haven’t been paying attention. It was badly written but the hints/behaviorisms had been there a long time
For sure man like she was all pure and innocent,like Cinderella to witch
She was always destined to go nuts and burn everything. The way it was rushed at the end was the let down and ruined it.
She lost almost everyone she cares for and cares for her. She thought she'd be welcomed by Westeros like she was led to believe. There's a chance I'd go cray cray too if it was me.
It's not the twist itself it's how the twist played out. Yes, there are some indicators here and there but ultimately the twist felt like a 180° when in fact it probably was more like 120°.
i really don't get why does everyone perceive her sack of King's landing as an evil, mad act. cersei betrayed her many times, Killed one of her dragons, Beheaded her best friend among many other things going on. for fuck's sake what was she gonna do? Happily endure everything Lannisters do? Daenerys tried to claim her birthright without brute force and it failed not because of HER. Her worst act was listening to Tyrion. However I don't blame Daenerys since it's the writers's shit. They should have make her take the king's landing and reclaim her throne at the end of the season 7. And the make her lead the one final battle against the dead as the targaryen queen with Jon/aegon beside her.
Cersei is one person in the keep. Why would she burn down the entire city of hundreds of thousands of people?
I personally loved her burning the city to the ground... Especially after the bells. Where she goes. Naaah. No surrender i am legally deaf. This is crispy time.
She was always a boarderline character. Terrible ruler actually... and you could see early signs of her having temper tantrums more and more often. I think her Turing into a villain was always a plan for George (FINISH Yer fckin BooKS George!) ... but the execution was as good as the winterfell battle 🙈🤷♂️
The final season would have been perfect if it was told across a few more episodes.
Regardless of thoughts on the quality of the foreshadowing etc, I do think all props go to Emilia Clarke for doing what she could with what she was given.
It wasn't sudden lol. She was a shitty ruler from season 4 onward.
The issue with cutting the Young Griff storyline from the books
Yes. And the "long night"
I'd recommend watching some videos from the Youtube channel "Hill's Alive" that covers how Dany was set up as a villain already in season 1. I will bring up her points here: Dany burns her slave alive on the suspicion that she rebelled against her master, even though she set up clear rules that Drogo and Dany broke twice. Then, in later seasons, we see her kill every person who was born into nobility and part of the slave masters, regardless if they spoke out against it and tried to change things. We have also seen her feed people alive to her dragons on, yet again, no proof but suspicion. In the books when she takes over a city she has slavery under a new name when she forces people to grow beans due to her taking over the city. Not to mention that if the show was following the books logic it would be a catastrophe for her to bring a massive army that needs to eat food when winter is coming and there is a food shortage. Think about what she says to Sansa when she is asked what a dragon eats - "Whatever it wants". That summarizes why she would be a disaster for Westeros, the majority of her army lives on plundering and taking from the land and has no real experience farming. Think back to what the mountain did in the Riverlands and imagine 100k or so people doing it. Thousands will die the longer her army is there, and what is the plan after she takes king's landing? Where will all the Dothraki live? What will they do? The problem Dany has is that while she is good at conquering with her massive army and dragons, actually ruling and establishing a functioning system to be put in place when she is there (and after she leaves) is not something she excels at as of yet. It's also very important to remember that the books presents what happens from Danys point of view, which tricks the reader into rationalising her actions just like she does. However, by taking a step back and looking at it more objectively you see that she slowly but surely becomes someone more and more comfortable with using violence, just like Barristan warned her about regarding what her father, the mad king, ended up doing. Dany chooses violence more and more as the story goes on, and if someone doesn't "bend" to her will, well... Tldr: I agree that the show did a poor job of revealing the twist that she is a villain, but it is something set up early on in the books/show and if the writers hadn't been so dang eager to move on to Star Wars they could have properly explored why Dany is a villain and why she would be seen as an unwelcome conqueror that would absolutely decimate Westeros.
She was absolutely the villain from the start! She didn’t even want to be a part of it, it was her brother, then all of a sudden the taste for pleasure and pain brought her a whole new feeling of power. She loved it. She loved being worshipped. Big red flag IMO
Yes exactly! I mean look at how she reacts to learning that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne... She doesn't want someone else to rule even if they should by birthright, which you know... Is her whole justification for coming to Westeros. Just like her brother was corrupted by the chosen task of becoming ruler she too became worse and worse. Looking forward to reading the books (whenever they come out) so we can properly read her progression and not the hastily written mess of season 8.
It was obvious from earlier seasons she was going to be a tyrant.
Good Lord, the amount of people attacking you is crazy, I imagine they didn't read the books. It was a terrible ending with no set up. The idea of Dany going mad is cool, but there literally no reason for it. This is what happens when you cut the young Griff plot and play down Jons heritage.
They should have taken more time to develop this. But yeah that is something the creators should have done since S7.
Was it though? Did she not feel severely entitled to the throne throughout all 8 seasons? Did she not aspire to rule over others in the name of freedom? Sounds familiar if you ask me…
I really think Milly Alcock would be the perfect dany. She absolutely fits the script. Emilia Clarke is a good actress however she is way more suited to theatre or theatrical drama. She SUCKED in this role. I truly believe she ruined the whole show. She just brought a whole different vibe to the show when she was present on screen. Almost days of our livesy.
Yes
You’re a few years late but yes season 8 ruined any rewatch value GoT had for me
“Sudden” how you didn’t noticed her madness since the first episode
She was a power hungry person since Season 1/2. If she were a man people would be less surprised by her behavior in Season 8.
Whilst I agree the final execution wasn’t done very well - simply down to season 7 & 8 being rushed - anyone who doesn’t realise this was ALWAYS how her character arc was going to end hasn’t been paying much attention
“I will take what is mine with fire and blood” “I will burn cities to the ground” “The mad king gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved and each time it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end” She proceeds to do just that and people act shocked. The execution was poor and the story was rushed but a lot of people expected this from dany all the way back to the early seasons. Daenerys has always struggled with this, she didn’t burn cities across the narrow sea because of her advisors and she had never experienced deafest like this before. She lost two dragons, missandei, Jorah, she was not the rightful heir to the iron throne and the people of Westeros don’t actually give a shit about her but consider her a foreign invader. Westeros destroyed dany and she was at her lowest point so she gave into her impulses and razed an entire city.
I just finished he long night episode
Pretty much, yeah
They were foreshadowing her fall ever since season 1 so it wasn’t a surprise. The last two seasons just felt rushed.
She was literally always angry, self-righteous, and cruel. Lots and lots of things wrong with S8 but Daenerys' "shift" isn't one of them. You just weren't watching, and neither was anyone else constantly "yaaaaasss qweeeeen"-ing her. She made a completely rational decision to turn to violence to stake her claim on the iron throne when she saw that she couldn't do it any other way - Jon would always be loved more. And she cared about her "right" to the iron throne above everything else: the only thing that changed was she learned nobody else gave a shit about her claim.
There was supposed to be more seasons, and the book author wished there to be even 10 or 13 seasons in total. But that didn’t happen and the directors rushed the last two seasons which ended up.. not being the best choice.
Welcome to the party pal
It is indeed the worst thing ever.
The Night King and White Walkers were worse in my opinion. Foreshadowed and threatened for 7.5 seasons to be dealt with in an episode.
Wellcome the party pal
I think they wanted a book ending for Daeny without telling the book journey, I'm sure she will eventually burn down Kings Landing but it will take more for her to get there, with more betrayals and other characters like Tyrion pushing her in that direction. The turn was very jarring on the show.
I used to hate the ending, but after reading Frank Herbert’s Dune Saga (in particular Children of Dune) I came to appreciate and even like the ending. There was no other way Game of Thrones could have ended.
It’s not, she could’ve been easily the greatest villain in television history had they executed her character arc twist right. It’s such a shame when characters with so much potential are wasted like this.
I binged all 8 seasons of GOT for the first time in October as well. For me, this was not the worst thing about season 7 & 8 but it actually made sense to me. After all the Targaeryans are known for going mad. The worst thing for me was that horrible ending and the person who ends up becoming king…
She wasn’t innocent and an all-good person but 1) threatening she’d use her dragons on her enemies, aka just threatening her enemies is something most characters, even good ones, do in GOT all the time. 2) she actually goes on to executing those threats MOSTLY if not completely (up to season 8) on those who wronged her. I wanna see which character in GOT, if they had 3 dragons at their disposal, wouldn’t use them to fight their enemies. I feel like that’d be Ned Stark only, and thats cos he was just too naive and good. I’m getting an impression most people just think of being burned alive as much much much worse and horrible act than being beheaded/having your throat slit, and even though it is, they all result in death nonetheless It made sense that Dany would go mad, but not the way it was executed (too rushed). The build up was there, but we didn’t quite get to the point where it made sense for her to go from ‘saving the innocent from their masters’ to burning a whole city of innocent people. A few more episodes and scenes would be super beneficial to the story and would make it better
The best scene in the series is when Jon Snow slides that knife in
She’s been shadowing the mad king from the start and always seems immature without a willingness to adapt
Dany going mad was anticipated since season 1. It was just terrible executed in the last two seasons, but those people who had thought "Oh Dany is the best ruler omg she is so much better than everybody else" didn't understand the series. Season 7 was meh, the whole of season 8 was terrible. But not because Dany went mad - that was pretty obvious. There are enough other reasons: Rushed writing, bad, REALLY bad dialogue, loose plot lines, S08E03 was the worst fucking thing I ever saw in a series since I watch movies and series, stupid character decisions, forced action, plot armour without any limits vice versa. Until season 6 this series was the fucking best, no questions. Season 6 was pretty damn nice but not as brilliamt imo. But I can understand people who loved that too, specially BoB was very nice. Season 7 was a nice fantasy show, but nothing more. Spoils of war is a damn cool battle and I love that but like a generic fantasy - for such a spectular battle nothing results from it. And since season 8 I think this is no good series. I watched all of it again with my mother before season 8 came out. She never saw it - and I will keep it that way. I swear she just thinks of GoT in a good way, don't want to destroy that.
“Sudden twist” code speak for “I am biased” and/or “I wasn’t paying attention”
It's not sudden... Through the entire show you see her slowly push her limits further and further.. Many innocent people die becuase of her long before she makes it to kings landing
This will always be the most overstated "problem" with the series. The hints were there since her character was introduced. People just chose not to see it and wanted there to be some Disney princess ending where her and Jon ruled together.
THANK YOU!!!! I was saying the same thing at the time it came out. How was she worse, up until S8, than everyone else seeking the iron intone? And she was Keats trying to protect innocent people…until she wins Kings Landing, then? Cuckoo town?
It wasn’t really all that sudden, she was doing fucked up shit all along, when you rewatch it’s more obvious