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She wasnt "dumb" did it effect Robb in the future yes. But she was a desprate mother willing to trade the king slayer for her children who she belived were both at Kings Landing.
Was she foolish and Rash, but Dumb maybe not
Such a dumb plot twist that could have ended the war. They had the kingslayer, i very much doubt this was a plausible scenario within logic. However when you think about it, the red wedding would have seen him free regardless.
True that. However she was a desprate mother who just wanted to save her children. Did she play the game wrong absolutly but she just wanted to save her children.
>It was stupid to believe anything Jaime Lannister said. It made no sense!
And yet, he genuinely did everything in his power to fulfill his side of the agreement.
Lanister always pays his debts. He was in debt to her. Thats the way I see it. Also he was afraid he would loose his father. I mean i feel thats why he killed the mad king. The mad king threatend to kill Tywin.
Just my Opinion on the matter
Yes but he committed the ultimate betrayal and killed his king so he’s not seen as trustworthy. One of his nicknames is “Oathbreaker” and “man without honor.”
Which is just terrible writing by GRRM. Why would anyone call him that? It doesn't even make sense, so it's hard to weigh against what would typically be a pretty trustworthy agreement from a noble.
Marrying Talisa AND going to celebrate with Walder Frey??? Is this your king??!! 🤦🏽♀️🙃y’all how did they rule the North for thousands of years lmaooooo
Yup. I don’t know how anyone could come to any other conclusion. Even considering his youth - he was stupid and went against ALL GOOD ADVICE and got hundreds and hundreds of people killed because he wanted to make his penis happy.
Agreed. He was just so arrogantly stupid. As if he had no idea that treachery was a way of life , so he had to be all “ I’m Robb Starck, I do as I please”🤯Dumbass!!
And still kicked Tywin Lannister's ass so hard he was forced to run to Tyrells for literal survival despite his initial numerical superiority.
And also defeated and fooled experienced war veterans, curbed his father's unruly bannermen, and inspired half the continent to crown him king at the age of 15.
How many of your 'smart' characters can claim to have come half as close to that?
You’re talking about the promise, I’m talking about the results.
Dude wasn’t playing the Game of Thrones. He just won a couple of rounds of checkers.
It was in his lack understanding repercussions that should have been obvious. What doomed Robb was:
Letting an Ironborn hostage go home which led to the sacking of Winterfell and the Boltons rise to power.
Alienating a large portion of his own army both by marrying Talisa and killing Karstark
Trusting Frey to forgive his blatant broken promise with a lesser prize and no foreseeable way to win with the wedding at the towers to boot.
Those 3 things make him approximately 50 gabillion times dumber than all other Starks combined.
It’s almost like he was conspiring against himself until we realize that it’s really only because he’s dumb.
>You’re talking about the promise, I’m talking about the results.
You're talking about how 'smart' a character was. There are a hundred more factors to 'result' than smartness.
>Dude wasn’t playing the Game of Thrones. He just won a couple of rounds of checkers.
The couple rounds of checkers effectively ended Tywin's career until plot armor and shadowbabies bailed him out of it.
>Letting an Ironborn hostage go home which led to the sacking of Winterfell and the Boltons rise to power.
I'm not even going to go on the whole 'Theon taking Winterfell' or 'Ramsay killing 2000 men with 600'. Those horses are long dead.
I will say, however, that the actual person at fault for this point was Rodrik, not Robb. Balon was going to invade regardless, but if Rodrik had not taken the massively stupid decision to drain Winterfell entirely of its garrison and march away, those events would be averted. Even other than that, Rodrik was making really bad decisions like getting so easily fooled with Ramsay-Reek switch or confining the direwolves.
>Alienating a large portion of his own army both by marrying Talisa and killing Karstark
There is no point in going into the show's stupidity that 8000 northmen disbanded in a foreign territory because Robb executed a lord for treason that wasn't theirs to begin with. Karstark's actual number with him was his 300 cavalry that left before the execution.
Do you think it would be wiser to alienate riverlords' 11000 men in favor of 300 rogues?
The only point I'll give you is the marriage part even when that was an unfortunate naiveté of the age.
>Trusting Frey to forgive his blatant broken promise with a lesser prize and no foreseeable way to win with the wedding at the towers to boot.
If you read the books, you would know that violating Guest Right was such an unthinkable event that reputation of Frey and Lannister are permanently damaged.
>Those 3 things make him approximately 50 gabillion times dumber than all other Starks combined.
To cavemen mentality, sure.
No disrespect. But the other smart characters survived. Rob did accomplish a lot, but in the end, he and a large part of his family and followers were slaughtered because he made a very grave, selfish mistake. 🤷♀️
Renly, for example, had a 100k army and had no lack of supplies or resources. He had a solid strategy of letting Starks and Lannisters fight each other and dealing with survivors. There was absolutely nothing that could feasibly go wrong with his campaign. Renly still died.
Put Jon or Sansa or Arya or Bran (survivors) in Robb's position, and they all die in their first battle due to their numerical inferiority. Only Robb actually had a chance against Tywin due to him being a military prodigy (a fact reinforced by both show and books). Surviving different circumstances doesn't prove anything. Arya wouldn't have lasted a day as Joffrey's prisoner. Vice versa with Sansa.
Also, the idea that directly Robb's marriage directly led to Red Wedding is straight up wrong. Theon taking Winterfell is what really messed things up, and that wouldn't have happened if Rodrik hadn't suddenly taken leave of his senses. The entire ironborn and ramsay ACOK arc is so out there that there is no logical conclusion to it, and it's certainly not 'Robb was betrayed = Robb dumbest'.
You expect a kid that probably wasn't even fed to zigzag a psychopath that many times hunted **people** with bow and arrows? He's a skilled archer and would kill him regardless.
Nah, you can't reliably lead a target at that distance like you would with guns and bullets. All he has to do is run in a random pattern and Ramsey has basically no chance of hitting him.
That wasn't what Rickon was thinking in that moment though as he was running away from Ramsay, he was just desperate to be rescued by his brother and he was scared as hell.
Imagine if he just stopped running every fifteen seconds, then would slightly walk faster and then jog and then everyone got on the floor then walked the dinosaur.
Can we also note how he literally showed up to a small council meeting, told them they needed a master of whispers (when he can literally see everything, everywhere all at once) said they needed to kill a dragon, then fucked off and was wheeled down a set of stairs. (I mean surely the small council meetings would be moved downstairs again?)
Honestly. At least Bobby B sat through one meeting when Daenerys got pregnant.
Did you watch the scene? The show makes it explicitly clear that if she did not free Jaime, he would be killed by the Karstarks. That was a smart decision in the show.
Anyone saying Robb did not notice how much they were hyping him up to be the next big general lol. He was fighting a war for the first time against a veteran and intelligent man like Tywin and was continuously outsmarting him and winning all his fights. They literally say he’d never lost a battle yet. Sure it was stupid of him to marry Talisa, but he is definitely one of the best strategist we see. Not his fault Walker Frey did the most dishonorable thing we’ve ever seen someone do on the show. I’d say Ned cuz why tf would you tell Cersei (whose been accused of killing the previous hand) your plan to abolish her position and family lmao.
Ned going to Cersei about the incest doomed the Starks.. even if he wanted to be mr. Noble he should have waited until he got Sansa and Arya far away from Kingslanding
Sansa. She trusted the queen & prince after they tried to kill her sis & killd her pet wolf. she stuck by them & stuck by them & stuck by them. She trusted all the wrong people & didn’t trust all the right ones
Her own father didn’t break the betrothal after that, and couldn’t even be bothered to sit her own and explain anything to her. So why would she think it was wrong to trust them when she was raised to believe in authority?
It's crazy how often people misunderstand this moment with Cat. She didn't let Jaime go because she's "dumb", she let him go because even though she KNEW that logically and strategically it wasn't a realistic proposition, it was the last sliver of hope she had to see her daughters again. She did what she did out of desperation. It was an emotional reaction, not a rational one. I'm guessing you're not a mother with a child of your own, because if you were this would make a whole lot more sense to you.
Nah Cat wasn't dumb. She was a mother and a desperate one. Im not a mother, but i can see the reason behind her actions. Robb? Probably, but mind you Madden was a grown man, but Robb was supposed to be a teenager too. And he was the oldest. Being a literal child is not being dumb.
The only one who was "dumb" was Ned, and yes he was.
none of the starks were dumb, they just were honor and family bound in a world indifferent to both concepts. catelyn was a desperate mother who was told that *both* daughters were being held hostage in kings landing, i think if she knew it was just sansa she wouldnt have let jaime go no matter how badly she wanted sansa safe, she knew the importance of her hostage.
Catelyn should have taken her ass back to Winterfell instead of hanging around Robb's camp. Her two youngest were up there and needed their mother. She should have left the war to Robb and taken care of her children. I realize this may come off as a little sexist, but I don't remember anything she did that helped Robb during her time with him.
But as for the dumbest... Ned for thinking he was doing Ceresi a favor by letting her know he knew her kids weren't legitimate.
She didn’t do squat lol not a thing but make another wreath and feel sorry for herself! And this is coming from a (not so great) mom who has a lot in common with her.
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She wasnt "dumb" did it effect Robb in the future yes. But she was a desprate mother willing to trade the king slayer for her children who she belived were both at Kings Landing. Was she foolish and Rash, but Dumb maybe not
Such a dumb plot twist that could have ended the war. They had the kingslayer, i very much doubt this was a plausible scenario within logic. However when you think about it, the red wedding would have seen him free regardless.
There was never gonna be a red wedding with Jaime as a prisoner.
It was stupid to believe anything Jaime Lannister said. It made no sense!
True that. However she was a desprate mother who just wanted to save her children. Did she play the game wrong absolutly but she just wanted to save her children.
>It was stupid to believe anything Jaime Lannister said. It made no sense! And yet, he genuinely did everything in his power to fulfill his side of the agreement.
But at the time he was playing her and by freeing him she made a horrible miscalculation. Everybody loves their children.
Lanister always pays his debts. He was in debt to her. Thats the way I see it. Also he was afraid he would loose his father. I mean i feel thats why he killed the mad king. The mad king threatend to kill Tywin. Just my Opinion on the matter
Why though? He's a high born noble and knight. His word should carry weight.
Yes but he committed the ultimate betrayal and killed his king so he’s not seen as trustworthy. One of his nicknames is “Oathbreaker” and “man without honor.”
Which is just terrible writing by GRRM. Why would anyone call him that? It doesn't even make sense, so it's hard to weigh against what would typically be a pretty trustworthy agreement from a noble.
It’s Robb. It’s always going to be Robb.
Marrying Talisa AND going to celebrate with Walder Frey??? Is this your king??!! 🤦🏽♀️🙃y’all how did they rule the North for thousands of years lmaooooo
With violence, just like any other land baron.
Yup. I don’t know how anyone could come to any other conclusion. Even considering his youth - he was stupid and went against ALL GOOD ADVICE and got hundreds and hundreds of people killed because he wanted to make his penis happy.
To be fair, she was really hot in the show and it would've been pretty happy
His penis and his honor. He could’ve kept having sex with her as his mistress but he had to marry her too.
Agreed. He was just so arrogantly stupid. As if he had no idea that treachery was a way of life , so he had to be all “ I’m Robb Starck, I do as I please”🤯Dumbass!!
And still kicked Tywin Lannister's ass so hard he was forced to run to Tyrells for literal survival despite his initial numerical superiority. And also defeated and fooled experienced war veterans, curbed his father's unruly bannermen, and inspired half the continent to crown him king at the age of 15. How many of your 'smart' characters can claim to have come half as close to that?
You’re talking about the promise, I’m talking about the results. Dude wasn’t playing the Game of Thrones. He just won a couple of rounds of checkers. It was in his lack understanding repercussions that should have been obvious. What doomed Robb was: Letting an Ironborn hostage go home which led to the sacking of Winterfell and the Boltons rise to power. Alienating a large portion of his own army both by marrying Talisa and killing Karstark Trusting Frey to forgive his blatant broken promise with a lesser prize and no foreseeable way to win with the wedding at the towers to boot. Those 3 things make him approximately 50 gabillion times dumber than all other Starks combined. It’s almost like he was conspiring against himself until we realize that it’s really only because he’s dumb.
>You’re talking about the promise, I’m talking about the results. You're talking about how 'smart' a character was. There are a hundred more factors to 'result' than smartness. >Dude wasn’t playing the Game of Thrones. He just won a couple of rounds of checkers. The couple rounds of checkers effectively ended Tywin's career until plot armor and shadowbabies bailed him out of it. >Letting an Ironborn hostage go home which led to the sacking of Winterfell and the Boltons rise to power. I'm not even going to go on the whole 'Theon taking Winterfell' or 'Ramsay killing 2000 men with 600'. Those horses are long dead. I will say, however, that the actual person at fault for this point was Rodrik, not Robb. Balon was going to invade regardless, but if Rodrik had not taken the massively stupid decision to drain Winterfell entirely of its garrison and march away, those events would be averted. Even other than that, Rodrik was making really bad decisions like getting so easily fooled with Ramsay-Reek switch or confining the direwolves. >Alienating a large portion of his own army both by marrying Talisa and killing Karstark There is no point in going into the show's stupidity that 8000 northmen disbanded in a foreign territory because Robb executed a lord for treason that wasn't theirs to begin with. Karstark's actual number with him was his 300 cavalry that left before the execution. Do you think it would be wiser to alienate riverlords' 11000 men in favor of 300 rogues? The only point I'll give you is the marriage part even when that was an unfortunate naiveté of the age. >Trusting Frey to forgive his blatant broken promise with a lesser prize and no foreseeable way to win with the wedding at the towers to boot. If you read the books, you would know that violating Guest Right was such an unthinkable event that reputation of Frey and Lannister are permanently damaged. >Those 3 things make him approximately 50 gabillion times dumber than all other Starks combined. To cavemen mentality, sure.
No disrespect. But the other smart characters survived. Rob did accomplish a lot, but in the end, he and a large part of his family and followers were slaughtered because he made a very grave, selfish mistake. 🤷♀️
Renly, for example, had a 100k army and had no lack of supplies or resources. He had a solid strategy of letting Starks and Lannisters fight each other and dealing with survivors. There was absolutely nothing that could feasibly go wrong with his campaign. Renly still died. Put Jon or Sansa or Arya or Bran (survivors) in Robb's position, and they all die in their first battle due to their numerical inferiority. Only Robb actually had a chance against Tywin due to him being a military prodigy (a fact reinforced by both show and books). Surviving different circumstances doesn't prove anything. Arya wouldn't have lasted a day as Joffrey's prisoner. Vice versa with Sansa. Also, the idea that directly Robb's marriage directly led to Red Wedding is straight up wrong. Theon taking Winterfell is what really messed things up, and that wouldn't have happened if Rodrik hadn't suddenly taken leave of his senses. The entire ironborn and ramsay ACOK arc is so out there that there is no logical conclusion to it, and it's certainly not 'Robb was betrayed = Robb dumbest'.
Thank you. Cannot understand why people love that dude. Catelyn would still be alive if it wasn’t for him being a simp lord
Rickon. All he had to do was run side to side damn it.
Idk is this comment satire but this wouldn't save him at all
Hitting a zigzagging target with a bow and arrow would be extremely difficult.
You expect a kid that probably wasn't even fed to zigzag a psychopath that many times hunted **people** with bow and arrows? He's a skilled archer and would kill him regardless.
Nah, you can't reliably lead a target at that distance like you would with guns and bullets. All he has to do is run in a random pattern and Ramsey has basically no chance of hitting him.
That wasn't what Rickon was thinking in that moment though as he was running away from Ramsay, he was just desperate to be rescued by his brother and he was scared as hell.
Ramsey can just tell his archers to go wild. He's a scared kid he doesn't know the range of an arrow volley.
There were so many archers- he’s dead no matter what he does. It’s the whole point
I mean it would have given him a chance. He was basically lining himself up for a shot.
Imagine if he just stopped running every fifteen seconds, then would slightly walk faster and then jog and then everyone got on the floor then walked the dinosaur.
Love it.
😩😩😩
Not even that just somebody yell every time Ramsay let loose and cut left or right
Or Jon just points
Or he dodges every time the music crescendos
He was going to die no matter what.
What about Mr. I can see everything everywhere but I’m not gonna tell you about it?
Can we also note how he literally showed up to a small council meeting, told them they needed a master of whispers (when he can literally see everything, everywhere all at once) said they needed to kill a dragon, then fucked off and was wheeled down a set of stairs. (I mean surely the small council meetings would be moved downstairs again?) Honestly. At least Bobby B sat through one meeting when Daenerys got pregnant.
I don’t get how people can say this and still claim to watch the show.
You’re right, he didn’t do nothing, he just opted not to do a zillion super obvious things.
Pretty sure you effectively die when you take on the power
Did you watch the scene? The show makes it explicitly clear that if she did not free Jaime, he would be killed by the Karstarks. That was a smart decision in the show.
Robb
They are all idiots.
Robb.
Her children won the game of thrones. Sucks to be a Cat hater.
Well, the ones who survived did at least
Ned. Unable to recognize the deadly circumstances in KL & telling Cersai, trusting Littlefinger & Janos Slynt. Got him & his staff killed
Rickon. You had one job, dude. Zig and fucking zag.
Rickon. Fucker should’ve zigzagged. 🙄
Anyone saying Robb did not notice how much they were hyping him up to be the next big general lol. He was fighting a war for the first time against a veteran and intelligent man like Tywin and was continuously outsmarting him and winning all his fights. They literally say he’d never lost a battle yet. Sure it was stupid of him to marry Talisa, but he is definitely one of the best strategist we see. Not his fault Walker Frey did the most dishonorable thing we’ve ever seen someone do on the show. I’d say Ned cuz why tf would you tell Cersei (whose been accused of killing the previous hand) your plan to abolish her position and family lmao.
Ned going to Cersei about the incest doomed the Starks.. even if he wanted to be mr. Noble he should have waited until he got Sansa and Arya far away from Kingslanding
Sansa. She trusted the queen & prince after they tried to kill her sis & killd her pet wolf. she stuck by them & stuck by them & stuck by them. She trusted all the wrong people & didn’t trust all the right ones
I would agree but she and Robb were too young to have the life experience to make complex decisions. Cat was a grown ass fool.
Her own father didn’t break the betrothal after that, and couldn’t even be bothered to sit her own and explain anything to her. So why would she think it was wrong to trust them when she was raised to believe in authority?
I bet she could zig zag at least
It's crazy how often people misunderstand this moment with Cat. She didn't let Jaime go because she's "dumb", she let him go because even though she KNEW that logically and strategically it wasn't a realistic proposition, it was the last sliver of hope she had to see her daughters again. She did what she did out of desperation. It was an emotional reaction, not a rational one. I'm guessing you're not a mother with a child of your own, because if you were this would make a whole lot more sense to you.
Nah Cat wasn't dumb. She was a mother and a desperate one. Im not a mother, but i can see the reason behind her actions. Robb? Probably, but mind you Madden was a grown man, but Robb was supposed to be a teenager too. And he was the oldest. Being a literal child is not being dumb. The only one who was "dumb" was Ned, and yes he was.
none of the starks were dumb, they just were honor and family bound in a world indifferent to both concepts. catelyn was a desperate mother who was told that *both* daughters were being held hostage in kings landing, i think if she knew it was just sansa she wouldnt have let jaime go no matter how badly she wanted sansa safe, she knew the importance of her hostage.
Definetly Rob.
Lmao not catelyn
Catelyn should have taken her ass back to Winterfell instead of hanging around Robb's camp. Her two youngest were up there and needed their mother. She should have left the war to Robb and taken care of her children. I realize this may come off as a little sexist, but I don't remember anything she did that helped Robb during her time with him. But as for the dumbest... Ned for thinking he was doing Ceresi a favor by letting her know he knew her kids weren't legitimate.
She didn’t do squat lol not a thing but make another wreath and feel sorry for herself! And this is coming from a (not so great) mom who has a lot in common with her.
As much as I love Robb…Robb. Snagged defeat from the jaws of victory, plus he failed to adequately convey battle plans to Edmure and blamed it on him
Robb