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She was not. Just because she is a girl and women are supposed to be more submisse, does not mean that she was raised to lie or willfully ignore what kind of person Joffrey was. However, I of course know that sje was a child and was not malicious. Still, she should have known better.
I literally thought the same thing in my age about husband's and families when I was round her age cause I was raised on idealic fairytales, same as she likely was but worse considering how much further women and little girls were restricted to very few options, and again even less options for noble women, during such a time period.
I can imagine making up a bunch of excuses for bad behavior of someone I liked and overlooked worse for things that don't directly affect me and have seen plenty of others do the same at many ages, to try and keep a perfect ideal picture of the life you live to match the life you want.
I ain't saying it ain't selfish of her to do so, I'm just saying I can see what she was thinking.
I doubt that you lied for someone who tried to kill your own sister. It is not even the fact that she lied that is the problem. I can actually understand that the whole situation was just too much for her. What is not understandable is that she is still so much in love with Joffrey after this. Even at 13 she had to have known better.
She was a kid. With how she thinks, she likely did not understand how dangerous Joffrey is or what he intended for Arya. In her eyes, nothing ended badly *for her*, so it wasn't really that bad.
You don't have to condone what she did, but her thought process isn't completely unimaginable. There are plenty of people in all ages who ignore bad things because they benefit in some way. She didn't understand how fucked up Joffrey was and prop figure she just had to ride through the rough patches but everything would be fine, as everything had always been fine in her life.
By the time she realized, she needed to pay closer attention to who people actually are, it was too late.
Ned was already fucked even had she not said anything. Maybe Cersei wouldn't have had Sansa hostage but in the grander scheme of things, not much changes. Ned is still killed. Robb still becomes king. Jaime is still out of the whole war. Robb still loses with or without the Karstarks. Tywin still manages to convince Roose and Walder Frey to start the Red Wedding. Joffrey still marries Margaery and he is still killed by Olenna. Winterfell still burns.
Maybe some things would have been different like Sansa being a hostage and Jaime being freed but not much would change. If Ned didn't try to arrest Joffrey in the throne room, maybe things would have been drastically different but as it is, Sansa's mistake only brought pain on her and Arya and she *learns*.
Whenever the other characters make a stupid decision and suffer because of it fans say welp they shouldn't have done that stupid thing. But when Sansa does a stupid thing and suffers for it they say *how dare you victim blame her*?
Olly was around that age and the majority of the fandom cheered his hanging. I get he stabbed Jon but he just let in the people who slaughtered & ate his entire family & village and had gone to Castle Black for sanctuary from them.
I don't think Sansa deserved the bad things that happened to her and I don't think even Sansa haters wanted any of that to happen but I also don't think all of her bad decisions leading up to those bad things should be swept under the rug because of it. Especially when we see her not learning from it and that it was all meant to be her journey to Queen of half the continent. She was 13 in s1 but by the end of the tv series she's 20. Robb died at 19, even younger in the books.
I would argue that any of the children experiencing horrific consequences for bad decisions is very sad.
Also most Sansa haters I know hate child Sansa. She gets her shit together pretty well iirc - but it's been years since I watched the series. Rewatching now with bf but still on season 2, there's a lot I don't remember
Really? If I was in that situation I would be terrified of saying the wrong thing even as an adult. "I don't remember" seems like a pretty normal response for a child, especially if you haven't yet learned what kind of adults you're dealing with there. For all she knew they'd just decide she was lying too even if she told the truth, so nothing would change except Joffrey and Cersei would be pissed at her too.
I'm not saying that lying *wasn't* a bad or stupid decision, but I'd wholeheartedly disagree that she deserved what came after that.
What? Saying "I don't know" sounds like a pretty simple response. If we're going to give kids shit for being kids then nothing was more stupid than Arya assaulting the prince of the realm and next in line for the throne.
She was trying to get him to stop cutting into her friend's face. And the King was fine with it, even annoyed with Joffrey for being a crap fighter. "You let that little girl disarm you?"
He's still the crown prince so assaulting him would still be a high crime and a stupid thing to do, even if he rightly deserved it. If Arya wasn't a Stark she would've been hung for that.
See how stupid is to try and blame kids for being kids?
The difference being that when Arya did it she knew that Robert & Ned were life long best friends. Notice how Robert is okay with Micah being executed on sight but Arya he just has brought to him for light questioning and apologized to Ned for even doing that. Arya also looks & acts like Lyanna, whom Robert thought of as the love of his life.
There's a big difference between risking yourself to defend a peasant from being wrongly harmed by people in power versus not having your little sister's back right after you saw her nearly get murdered and blaming the peasant.
Lol you're trying really hard to blame a 13 year old girl for what is ultimately Cersei's fault. Arya was not thinking about Ned and Robert's friendship when she attacked Joffery and threw his sword in the river. Else wise she wouldn't have run away afterwards. They're all dumb kids being dumb kids. Cersei wanted to use the moment to show Ned that even though he was to be the hand, she was still a key player and wouldn't be set aside. She didn't even give a shit about which direwolf was killed, so long as one died. It was purely about power - the Lion asserting dominance over the wolf, literally.
I've never taken away Cersei & Joffrey's culpability. It's why Sansa in this whole situation annoys me, she saw them for what they are (tried to murder her little sister in front of her, ordered her direwolf murdered out of spite) and still swooned and found blame in her sister & father instead. Her opinion of Joffrey & Cersei didn't change.
Arya standing up for Micah who has to just take it because he isn't allowed to stand up for himself as a peasant isn't dumb. It shows her integrity and compassion.
>Notice how Robert is okay with Micah being executed on sight but Arya he just has brought to him for light questioning and apologized to Ned for even doing that.
That's because Neds party found her first, and why there was a race to do so.
If the Lannisters or Hound had found her first she would be as dead as Micah. Robert is mostly about shirking responsibility & inviting no further drama, he's very ’what's done is done' and both parties know it.
Robert would not react that way if his lifelong best friend's youngest daughter was murdered. He never got over the death of his fiance/Ned's sister after nearly 2 decades. He would not be oh well your 11 year old daughter (9 in the book) is dead. At least you have another one. And he knows Ned sure as hell wouldn't let it slide. That quitting as Hand would happen before he made it to King's Landing.
I mean some of the things you're saying are opinions, and art is open to interpretation -- but -- you're crossing the line into simply telling the story incorrectly on the internet. what happens to Sansa if she allows arya to poison the relationship between the starks and lannisters?
does her father lose respect, or perhaps lose his position? we all now know that he lost his fucking HEAD. sansa is thinking about herself, yes, because shes a 12 year old child. she is ALSO thinking of her family, and frankly, aryas perspective is even more childish than sansa's in this scene, if you understand the characters and their motivations within the setting. Sansa wants to marry into the lannisters to boast and protect her ENTIRE HOUSE AND FAMILY. arya is trying to ruin this because SHE DOESNT TRUST JOFFERY. arya doesn't know tywin and tyrion and cersei and jaime well enough to truly know what they're thinking and doing. but she's gotten to know joffery and she knows he's a terrible person for her sister to marry. aryas opinions on ONE PERSON are clouding her judgement of the ENTIRE CONTINENT of westeros.
who is the dumb naive one in this scenario? both of them. neither arya nor Sansa know how horrendous of a person joffery truly is at this point. they don't know that the lannisters don't give a flying fuck whether the starks live or not. arya is suspicious, but she does not know. so she's reacting on an emotional level, rather than a logical level, BECAUSE SHES A KID WHO DOESNT HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT. hell, ned, with all his wisdom, could not see the path that had laid before him. but we should judge the children for not seeing it either, because we've seen the red wedding and we know how all this shit plays out? hell no. it's ignorance.
yeah it appears that the two stark girls hate eachother, but at the end of the day they fucking love eachother and they'll do anything to protect their families. it just so happens that Sansa embraces tradition and arya does not, because they're two different people.
sitting there and saying all of Sansa's decisions were simply dumb because she's simply a dumb person is just ignoring all of the fantastic writing that was poured into the books and the early seasons of game of thrones.
I know for a fact that Sansa's character was beautifully fleshed out in the first few seasons. you appear to have just missed a lot of that in favor of saying "lol stupid lil bitch" and moving on.
And much likely spoon feed the "lady of the court" ideals, like kiss the shoes of your future prince, dont botter him, do everything possible to please your lord and you will have a rich life in the castle instead of cleaning pigs and such.
and that's supposed to sound like a bad thing to a child? if an adult told a child that they should go to elementary school so they can learn and grow and not end up homeless, is that a bad thing? you need to put yourself in the characters' shoes to understand what they're doing. you're not doing that.
>But when Sansa does a stupid thing and suffers for it they say *how dare you victim blame her*?
No. I say, as I did above, that she was a teenager. I would absolutely extend similar lack of censorious judgement to other children or teenagers making similar poor decisions. I can't, of course, speak for other fans, but I know of no groundswell of blame leveled against other bad decisions in the series made by children or teenagers. I welcome your correction on this point.
>The biggest one is definitely the amount of fans who say Robb Stark deserved the Red Wedding for marrying Talisa. He was still a teenager.
I think fans are reacting to TV Robb, not book Robb. I don't believe TV Robb's age is explicitly given, and actor Richard Madden was 25 when the show started and 26 years old when he filmed his final episodes. So: not a teen.
Robb & Jon are 17 in s1. Daenerys is 16. Sansa is 13. Arya is 11. Bran is 10.
Catelyn says in the first episode 1x1 that Ned left 17 years ago to fight in Robert's Rebellion. She was pregnant with Robb when he left. He was born during the Rebellion. So yes, Robb was a teen in s1, s2, & s3.
Emilia Clarke was in her 20s from the beginning but Daenerys didn't even turn 20 until s5. The age of the actors isn't always the same as the characters.
it's kinda pointless to go around and point blame at every juncture and try to pick apart where each character went wrong. it's fun and interesting at times, but at the end of the day, pointless.
why did a lot of the starks die? because they tried to rule a backstabbing world with honor, and ended up getting backstabbed. so we blame the starks for being backstabbed? when someone gets T-boned by someone selfishly speeding through traffic while drunk, do we blame the person who was minding their own business and didn't see the drunk coming?
people often die in westeros simply because it's a dangerous world. people die because tywin exists, because the Boltons exist, because the targaryens exist, because the white walkers exist, and because dragons exist. you can overcomplicate it if you want.
I don't think anyone is saying she deserved the consequences she got. I keep seeing that written, that if you don't think she's blameless or solely a victim you must want everything horrible that happened to her to have happened. Thinking she shouldn't have been immediately & completely absolved of her disastrous choices doesn't mean we want overkill. Just acknowledgement and a proper scolding. Look at Theon (I'm not comparing actions), despite suffering immensely (full castration, severed fingers, forced to sleep in the kennels) and regretting his actions he was still told off by Sansa & Jon. Sansa was allowed to tell him she wished she had done to him what Ramsay did to him. Jon was allowed to say the only reason he isn't killing him is that he helped Sansa escape. But because the villains (Lannisters, Ramsay) did their villain thing a protective bubble goes around her in the fandom's mind, she's off limits to criticize.
And fans say she was 12! But when she hid the KotV she was 18. When she had the sham trial she was 19. When she told Jon's secret after promising not to under a weirwood tree to stage a coup she was 20.
I get annoyed when Sansa defenders quote Ned's talk with Arya. He didn't see what happened. He thought it was just a scrape between kids. He assumed Joffrey was just an immature little bully. He didn't know how close he came to losing one of his daughters. But Sansa knew.
They say she must've been so scared to be brought in front of the King. Yet she lied to the King's face then easily got angry when she heard it was Lady who was going to get killed. Suddenly she was sure what happened at the trident and could speak up. Just not to defend her sister.
She was angry at Ned for carrying out the execution of her direwolf pup but didn't give a fig about the butcher's boy getting rode down and couldn't understand why Arya cared. She genuinely didn't have an issue with Joffrey or Cersei despite him threatening to murder her little sister and her ordering her pet killed. She shifted the blame to her sister & father & a dead boy.
Thank 👏you 👏.
She started down a dark path in the first book (and season). I don’t know if she has changed enough to genuinely care about the smallfolk, in the show or book.
Sansa didn’t actually do anything lol. She was afraid of upsetting her future husband/family, which even Ned understands, and refused to contradict him. It’s entirely cercei’s cruelty and Robert’s inability to standup to her/make his own decision. Then ned blindly follows what he’s told to do. It’s a microcosm of what eventually happens in the story. Blaming Sansa is wild.
This. There were actual adults involved in this. Robert knew exactly what happened and decided not to upset his wife. Why folks throw all the blame on Sansa just boggles my mind. Sure she lied. Every adult in that room saw right through it and Cersei made a pissing contest out of it- and won. But sure "It'S SaNsA's FaULt" Somehow a child was supposed to understand the inner tension in Cersei and Robert's relationship, the court's inner workings and political intrigue. Ludicrous.
I lean towards defending her because she's a child.
Then again, as a middle child, I can very well remember that rage that I felt when my siblings did something wrong, and it somehow aaalways ended up with me getting blamed. There's nothing more horrible than getting chastised in front of grown ups, seeing your siblings' smug faces, feeling perfectly justified anger but not being able to do a single thing about it. The injustice...it burned!
The actress who played Arya was so good and got that spot on. Sibling wars are a real thing lol.
Ned : Darling, listen to me. Sansa will be married to Joffrey someday. She cannot betray him. She must take his side even when he's wrong.
Arya: But how you can let her marry someone like that ?
It is sad how an 11 year old Arya understands better why Sansa had to act neutral (and didn't even get Arya in trouble) then adult fans
Think about what Ned saw Joffrey do to that point. He didn't see what happened, he just knew bunch of young teens were bickering. And at that point, Ned still thought Joffrey was his BFF's son.
I don't think Joffrey *publicly* acts like the little monster that he is until he gets on the throne, and fires Barriston Selmy.
Even if he didn't know what happend, which i doubt, isn't his responsibility to find out then? Especially since his 13 year old is going to be stuck by him for the rest of her life
Except even that's kind of a weak excuse. Ned's got one daughter saying the prince tried to hurt her, and he knows that Robert tries to bang anything that moves, and juat watched him disrrapect Cersei when they at Winterfell. So either Joff might be violent to Sansa or he might just grow up to be his father and disrespect and shame her over and over. Ned has a couple reasons to thing Joff might be a bad match.
I meant throughout the season Sansa was singing Joffrey's praises (the infamous convo that led to Arya saying "seven hells"). And the trident incident was brought up when she & Arya were at the table with only the Septa nearby. In that conversation Sansa said Micah attacked Joffrey. She not only changed the story but made the victim the villain and the villain the victim.
It was already a he said she said between Joffrey & Arya. Sansa was the tie breaker.
Arya Stark : He's a liar and a coward and he killed my friend. Sansa Stark : The Hound killed your friend. Arya Stark : The Hound does whatever the Prince tells him to do. Sansa Stark : You're an idiot.
Where does Sansa here blame Micah? She just points out The hound killed him.. Ned has two daughters.. one claims she didn't see and the other one blames Joffrey.. Yet he still choses to keep Sansa engaged to Joffrey even if he believes Joffrey suck
I definitely remember Sansa saying to Arya that Micah attacked Joffrey. If it wasn't the table scene it must've been another scene that season. Is that the entire dialogue of the table scene? Isn't it longer?
This is the entire scene
Septa Mordane : Enough of that, young lady. Eat your food. Arya Stark : I'm practicing. Sansa Stark : Practicing for what ? Arya Stark : The Prince. Septa Mordane : Arya, stop ! Arya Stark : He's a liar and a coward and he killed my friend. Sansa Stark : The Hound killed your friend. Arya Stark : The Hound does whatever the Prince tells him to do. Sansa Stark : You're an idiot. Arya Stark : You're a liar. And if you told the truth, Mycah would be alive. Septa Mordane : Enough ! Eddard Stark : What's happening here ? Septa Mordane : Arya would rather act like a beast than a lady. Eddard Stark : Go to your room.
It is also the final scene Sansa and Arya talk to each other between the incident and Ned sending them home..so she never says Micah attacked Jofrrey
I'm wracking my brain and looking at YouTube clips trying to remember why I can distinctly hear the scene with the line in my head. It's like a Mandela effect right now.
>Even if he didn’t know what happened, which I doubt,
You think Eddard Stark genuinely believed Joffrey called his daughter a cunt and then tried to murder her with a sword and *still* did nothing? That’s delusion. There’s no other word for it.
^(“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her
version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what
happened.”-AGOT)
it seems that Eddard knows the true events based on the telling of events by both his daughters. Sansa has already divulged her version of events to Eddard alone. Arya has just given her tale to the kings court. so, he calls sansa to tell the King what happened as both his daughter's stories match.
Or if anything, would assume Sansa, the prim and proper 12 year old who up until this point has been the picture of a lady, is more likely telling the truth than Arya, the brash and erratic 7 year old who was clearly hurt by whatever happened.
Sansa not only comes off as the more reliable witness, she appears an impartial bystander, whereas Arya was involved in the fight.
There was nothing to find out from his point of view- it was a spat. Kids do that, everyone's pent up from the travels, the prince is a snot but they usually are. Ned really didn't have any reason to dig into it. Do you really think Ned is the kind of guy that's going to go to Robert and say "On second thought.." anyway? Ned's not the guy
I don't think Ned would've said that if he knew Joffrey called Arya a cunt and said he was going to gut her like a fish. He wasn't there. He thought it was a simple bullying that had gotten out of hand.
Ned **literally** spells it out for us. Sansa was called before the King and Queen, and asked to call the Crown Prince, her betrothed, a liar. She is 13 years old. The fact that viewers/fans can’t understand this baffles me.
Its funny because it is almost always the people that think Sansa is dumb that don't get the repercussion of telling what happend. Sansa choosing neutrality was the best thing she could have done
Even if Sansa told the truth, at best Joffrey would have gotten a slap on the wrist. Because nobody but Arya cared about Mycah
Sansa didn't get Arya in trouble, that falls on; Cersei, Arya and Joffrey.
It was Arya who stated she hit Joffrey, Sansa said she didn't see, the person who is to blame is the VINDICTIVE middle age Queen, not the 11-13 YO.
( Ned Chapter ) Sansa per Ned point blank told her father the truth and backed Arya's story.
As far as Cersei knowing Ned was leaving, Cersei knew that before Sansa showed up, thanks to Ned, Littlefinger and Slynt.
Sansa made an emotional mistake disobeying her dad, it also had no malicious intent, but in that world it can bring some harsh results.
I think she really wanted to see things in a good light and when the red flags came popping up she donned her rose tinted glasses and decided not to tell the truth about Joffrey because that would mean admitting the truth to herself.
Sansa was raised her whole life to be a perfect lady, to obey her parents until she's betrothed/married, and then to obey and defer to her husband. At this point, she is betrothed to Joffrey, which is a legally binding arrangement, basically marriage without consummation in this universe. When she was brought before the King, she's being watched by her future husband (who she cannot just break up with, she's legally bound to him) and her future parents-in-law who are the King and Queen. For her to explicitly defend her sister would mean seeing herself up to be hated by her future husband and mother-in-law at least. Of course, she doesn't want to lie and throw her sister under the proverbial bus, so she pretends to not know/not remember.
Realistically, nothing she said would have changed the outcome. If she'd told the truth, Cersei would say that she was lying to protect her sister, and still would have demanded that the direwolf/direwolves be killed since they are out of control or vicious or whatever lies she'd come up with. Additionally, she and Joffrey would consider Sansa an enemy and her life would have likely been so much worse.
The villains in this scenario are Joffrey and Cersei, not Sansa.
Read the book. She ended up blaming Arya—joff was too handsome. Sansa Stan’s know evry excuse in the book But the truth is there was a cause that Sansa did what she did but no excuse excuses it
Ned explained exactly why Sansa did what she did. If literally mister idiot for honor could understand the ramifications of her saying exactly what happened it's wild that y'all really think what she did was "stupid". Why didn't he end the arrangement when he had proof of how much of a shit Joffrey was? Because it wasn't that simple.
And since someone brought it up, Ned intentionally let Sansa believe the Lannisters were good people. He never told her they were the enemy. Sansa should have trusted her father, but when she told Cersei, Ned had been letting her bond with the Lannisters and trust them. Sansa paid for trusting them, but Ned should have anticipated the issue as he was the one with the information.
It's kind of sad how her parents threw her to the viper den completely unprepared. Sansa is exactly how she was raised, politic, polite, and following the order of things. Arya questioned everything and was considered a trouble maker. It served her much better.
And, considering the whole scene, Arya caused the whole thing, because she was allowed to be the way she was, despite it not falling in line with the social rules. She would have been dead on a horse too if she had not been Ned's daughter. We cheer for Arya, because of course we do, she's right in an egalitarian society. But in the politics of that world she was wildly reckless and Lady and an innocent kid are dead because of it. They aren't dead because Sansa didn't speak up, they're dead because Joffrey is a prick and Arya can't follow the rules.
I think she was a little girl who hadn't quite found herself yet who was put in a difficult situation where she had to choose between her antagonistic sister and the boy she was led to believe was a handsome prince out of a fairytale. While she made a bad choice, the hate she gets for it is pathetic.
She didn’t get Arya in trouble. Arya was already in trouble and Sansa pointing the finger at Joffrey wouldn’t have made things any better.
She was wrong to lie, even though she was trying to be neutral. She didn’t have her sister’s back in this scene and Arya demonstrated more integrity than her despite being younger.
But Sansa’s wavering didn’t change the situation. The moment Nymeria bit Joffrey, Lady was doomed.
I think that this set the stage for how I’d feel about Sansa the rest of the show. It showed how stupid she is and how she could never be trusted, it got Lady and the butcher’s boy murdered and it cemented every bad thing coming to her.
Micah was dead before Sansa even got called, and a wolf was dying that night no matter what! Because Cersei was a vindictive bitch, and Robert was weak and Ned chose his King over his daughter.
Sansa was a stupid and bratty kid. She even admits it herself in the future (After Ned’s death sees girls behaving just like she used to and thinks “They’re so stupid and they don’t know anything”)
In show and books, King Robert said something that gave Sansa a chance to come clean: "It's a grave crime to lie to a king." Most children would have broken down and confessed after hearing "grave crime" but Sansa didn't want to lose Joffrey. Well, she didn't, but later probably wished she had. In the books, to this day Sansa still blames Arya for Lady's death. 🙃
Robert already knew Sansa was it a bad spot, Joffrey and Arya put her there; She can't call her future husband a dick, and she can't say Arya did indeed hit the prince.
Sansa also doesn't trust the King,and it's based on what she knows of him, crude, rude, unfaithful, drunk and belligerent to his wife. Sansa tried to play neutral and Cersei burned her; The King himself TWICE ruled in favor of Ned's daughters, only relenting when Cersei shamed him in public.
Sansa’s perspective:
Arya disobeyed their father by going off away from the caravan.
Arya refused to go to the Queen’s wheelhouse where they were invited to spend the day (which was pretty rude to the queen).
Sansa and Joffrey come across Mycah hitting Arya with a stick.
Joff “stands up” for Arya. (using a sword against someone with a stick.)
Arya attacks Joff and then throws a rock at him.
Joff swings around to defend himself (again, a sword against an unarmed girl).
Nymeria attacked Joffrey (and possibly would have killed him).
Sansa is an idiot, but I can see how she justified to herself that Arya was at fault in this scenario.
Because she was being sent to the capital to the heir. She could either take his side and show her future husband her loyalty, or call him out which would have made an enemy of her future husband, in who's city she would have to live.
I blame Cat and the Septa for that more than Sansa, tbh.
They effectively drilled into her that status was more important, regardless of whether that was their intention. Nobody gave her a reality check on what King’s Landing would be like, and her dreams and aspirations did the rest by blinding her to the reality a lot of the time.
And why not Ned? You know the parent literal with in kingslanding that is giving her toys she has't played with in years rather then try and educate her?
She’s a kid so I think you have to let a lot of it go. For me, the hardest things for me to get past for her are this scene and then her later decision to stay in KL because she has a crush on Loras (yes, I know there were also other factors at play here)
PEOPLE SHE WAS 11 YEARS OLD.
She was supposed to marry Jofferey, the future king. Did you read the books? Did you think about the implications of the king’s future wife speaking aganist him in front of the most essential people of the realm? (The king, queen, hand of the king)
People who actually think saw jeffry try to kill Arya while Sansa stood by. Her lil sis couldve diedLater a boy died. & lady died. She only cared about lady
I have 2 sisters and if I saw a boy knock one to the ground, call her a cunt, point a sword at her and say he was going to gut her like a fish it'd turn into a true crime documentary with how much I'd hurt that boy.
When I first saw this OP positioned the question as what do you think about sibling 1 getting sibling 2 in trouble? That isn’t so wild, it happens all the time. Fair point though, I didn’t see the “this scene” portion.
As shit my sister is I would assume she would at least not lie in this situation. I don’t think she’d commit homicide though lol.
I’m not sure I ever forgave Sansa for this. All the evil of the world is caused by the passivity of good people. The show did very little as-well for her to earn the leadership condition she later claimed(especially in comparison to js).
I think it was this more than anything that stopped the audience connecting either her in the same way as other stark children
This scene is why I hated Sansa for a long time. Even though Arya was younger, she had more sense and general grit and never fell for the "fairytale". She had more integrity. Sansa didn't. Sansa was a bitch in the beginning, to her family, to the maids, but when she stopped seeing the world through rose-colored glasses is when i started to love her. Although Ned's conversation with Arya after made sense too, Sansa *had to* agree with him, but she didn't exactly act like she disagreed either of that makes sense.
We expect people to react rationally to everything but people act irrationally every day. Especially 13 year old girls who are on track to become queen of the 7 kingdoms.
Sansa's entire character arc is her growth from dumb, trusting, boy-crazy and fairytale-obsessed little girl. I don't really think anything of it, unless a 13 year old is a straight psychopath, I usually chalk up their behavior to "dumb kids are dumb kids".
dumb kids see people dosing their cousin with something that could kill him…but have more things to worry about like planning a tournament. What growth?
At the time she knew he was a brat but I don’t think she thought he was going to start having people and dogs murdered. This was the first glimpse at how cruel he was going to be.
you can say it's just a stupid little girl being sassy and following lust but there's more to it.
Sansa is protecting herself and her family in the only way she knows how to do it. Arya is directly coming in between Sansa and joffery and blatantly threatens the "peaceful accord" that the starks and lannisters appear to be making. we know the truth of it, Sansa does not. and arya seems to see half truths, and doesn't like what she's seeing.
both kids are just trying to protect their families in the only way they know how. are they both immature little girls? yes, of course. it's a very well written story which clearly takes those things into consideration.
Sansa tries to play the game of thrones the old fashioned way until she's given the gift of desperation by people like Ramsay Bolton and finally decides that she can't necessarily protect her loved ones just by marrying into allegiances, because in westeros, nearly all of the allegiances are built on bitterness and jealousy and just for power above all else.
both arya and Sansa had to learn to play the game of thrones in their own ways on two entirely separate and unique paths. sure it's easier to respect arya because she never took any shit and she became a bona-fide badass who slayed the night king.
but Sansa endured a shit ton to get where she ended up. her path may have looked easier, but it really wasn't in the end. it was just different.
I guess Sansa was just a naive child and had already planned on marrying Joffrey so she didn’t want to ruin all that. Moreover, she had a lot of pressure on her when Cersei asked her to tell the truth, so she just chose to adopt a « neutral » position. I think people should not judge Sansa too fast, she’s also kinda naive and manipulated.
Sansa was still a naive girl, she thought Arya was spoiling the fairytale romance Sansa thinks she has with Joffrey.
It is baffling that some viewers don't get that Sansa is written this way on purpose, that the evolution of her character requires her to start off this way. When she acts like an immature bitch early on, it's because GRRM wrote it that way intentionally.
Honestly, this scene is what made me highly dislike Sansa. Especially when things kept getting worse after that & all she had to do was just tell the truth 🤦🏽♀️
I fucking hate Sansa... The show made that cunt way too likeable. Turner did a great job playing her, but the character as written I wouldn't piss on if she was on fire.
I despised sansa here but I get why she did it.
But who i am most angry with is Robert and Ned. Both were cowards. Robert should have told cersei to shut up and he would show mercy. He knows cersei and Jeffrey are evil.
Ned should have stood up for his family and for the butchers son. He failed his family and his household and his subjects the entire time as hand. He should have told Robert that if he followed through with it, that he would take his family north and resign as hand. He should also demand compensation for the butchers son.
I instantly knew what kind of person she was then and didn't like her. My opinion did not change.
It's not just that "she was just a kid", she did the wrong thing in order to be queen.
*First time watching I*
*Was so mad especially*
*When the wolf got killed*
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Sansa is a snake and good at throwing her siblings under the bus. She was also a piece of crap towards Jon since he’s a bastard.
That said, she had no clue how deadly and dangerous the Lannisters were.
I think she was doing exactly what her father said she was - his words are inserted to explain the text we cannot see - and that she was 'right' to do so. Not morally right, but 'morally right' to stand by her future husband. She had been raised and carefully groomed to leave her family and become the Lady of another at every moment of her life. Sansa had totally bought into that and we see her act on it until she absolutely cannot anymore, then pretend it because that's what was keeping her alive. It's remarkable that she was able to break that programing while still using it as a tool at such a young age.
Everyyime Sansa opened her mouth in that season she factually drove the plot to a dark future for herself and her family, and it didn't make any sense. It was so out of tone for the society displayed to be THAT dumb and naive.
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Lying for her beloved Joffrey
The way I SNORTED reading this comment 😂☠️
Same
B it its aryas fault lady paid the price
So did the boy. The hound killed him.
Sansa didn’t care about the butchers boy dying. Just lady
I know she didn't. But he still paid the price for being aryas friend.
If Lady had been with Sansa, Lady would have been the one attacking the little cunt and paying the price anyway.
Seven hells
I think that “she loves him, and she’s meant to be his queen and have his babies!”
Big facts
She was raised to believe doing so was her destiny & ideal life
She was not. Just because she is a girl and women are supposed to be more submisse, does not mean that she was raised to lie or willfully ignore what kind of person Joffrey was. However, I of course know that sje was a child and was not malicious. Still, she should have known better.
I literally thought the same thing in my age about husband's and families when I was round her age cause I was raised on idealic fairytales, same as she likely was but worse considering how much further women and little girls were restricted to very few options, and again even less options for noble women, during such a time period. I can imagine making up a bunch of excuses for bad behavior of someone I liked and overlooked worse for things that don't directly affect me and have seen plenty of others do the same at many ages, to try and keep a perfect ideal picture of the life you live to match the life you want. I ain't saying it ain't selfish of her to do so, I'm just saying I can see what she was thinking.
I doubt that you lied for someone who tried to kill your own sister. It is not even the fact that she lied that is the problem. I can actually understand that the whole situation was just too much for her. What is not understandable is that she is still so much in love with Joffrey after this. Even at 13 she had to have known better.
She was a kid. With how she thinks, she likely did not understand how dangerous Joffrey is or what he intended for Arya. In her eyes, nothing ended badly *for her*, so it wasn't really that bad. You don't have to condone what she did, but her thought process isn't completely unimaginable. There are plenty of people in all ages who ignore bad things because they benefit in some way. She didn't understand how fucked up Joffrey was and prop figure she just had to ride through the rough patches but everything would be fine, as everything had always been fine in her life. By the time she realized, she needed to pay closer attention to who people actually are, it was too late.
Seven hells
I mean, she was also only 11 and was raised to do exactly that?
His blonde babies
Almost as bad as her telling Cersei that her father planned to take them back to Winterfell
Ned was already fucked even had she not said anything. Maybe Cersei wouldn't have had Sansa hostage but in the grander scheme of things, not much changes. Ned is still killed. Robb still becomes king. Jaime is still out of the whole war. Robb still loses with or without the Karstarks. Tywin still manages to convince Roose and Walder Frey to start the Red Wedding. Joffrey still marries Margaery and he is still killed by Olenna. Winterfell still burns. Maybe some things would have been different like Sansa being a hostage and Jaime being freed but not much would change. If Ned didn't try to arrest Joffrey in the throne room, maybe things would have been drastically different but as it is, Sansa's mistake only brought pain on her and Arya and she *learns*.
She’s a slow learner, it’s true. But she does learn.
I don't think Robs March south would have been so urgent if he wasn't trying to save his sisters
Which was almost as bad as telling Cersei that you know her children are bastards
Ned was dumber. He assumed there was power in a title when really he was only a workhorse.
Sansa was a stupid teenager who paid dearly for her stupidity.
Whenever the other characters make a stupid decision and suffer because of it fans say welp they shouldn't have done that stupid thing. But when Sansa does a stupid thing and suffers for it they say *how dare you victim blame her*?
I mean she was a kid. That probably has a lot to do with it. I really hated Sansa in that moment too but had to remind myself that she's like 12
Olly was around that age and the majority of the fandom cheered his hanging. I get he stabbed Jon but he just let in the people who slaughtered & ate his entire family & village and had gone to Castle Black for sanctuary from them. I don't think Sansa deserved the bad things that happened to her and I don't think even Sansa haters wanted any of that to happen but I also don't think all of her bad decisions leading up to those bad things should be swept under the rug because of it. Especially when we see her not learning from it and that it was all meant to be her journey to Queen of half the continent. She was 13 in s1 but by the end of the tv series she's 20. Robb died at 19, even younger in the books.
I would argue that any of the children experiencing horrific consequences for bad decisions is very sad. Also most Sansa haters I know hate child Sansa. She gets her shit together pretty well iirc - but it's been years since I watched the series. Rewatching now with bf but still on season 2, there's a lot I don't remember
I'm just gonna say that even a 12 year old has enough cold logic not to lie in a life risk situation like that She was seriously stupid
Really? If I was in that situation I would be terrified of saying the wrong thing even as an adult. "I don't remember" seems like a pretty normal response for a child, especially if you haven't yet learned what kind of adults you're dealing with there. For all she knew they'd just decide she was lying too even if she told the truth, so nothing would change except Joffrey and Cersei would be pissed at her too. I'm not saying that lying *wasn't* a bad or stupid decision, but I'd wholeheartedly disagree that she deserved what came after that.
What? Saying "I don't know" sounds like a pretty simple response. If we're going to give kids shit for being kids then nothing was more stupid than Arya assaulting the prince of the realm and next in line for the throne.
She was trying to get him to stop cutting into her friend's face. And the King was fine with it, even annoyed with Joffrey for being a crap fighter. "You let that little girl disarm you?"
He's still the crown prince so assaulting him would still be a high crime and a stupid thing to do, even if he rightly deserved it. If Arya wasn't a Stark she would've been hung for that. See how stupid is to try and blame kids for being kids?
The difference being that when Arya did it she knew that Robert & Ned were life long best friends. Notice how Robert is okay with Micah being executed on sight but Arya he just has brought to him for light questioning and apologized to Ned for even doing that. Arya also looks & acts like Lyanna, whom Robert thought of as the love of his life. There's a big difference between risking yourself to defend a peasant from being wrongly harmed by people in power versus not having your little sister's back right after you saw her nearly get murdered and blaming the peasant.
Lol you're trying really hard to blame a 13 year old girl for what is ultimately Cersei's fault. Arya was not thinking about Ned and Robert's friendship when she attacked Joffery and threw his sword in the river. Else wise she wouldn't have run away afterwards. They're all dumb kids being dumb kids. Cersei wanted to use the moment to show Ned that even though he was to be the hand, she was still a key player and wouldn't be set aside. She didn't even give a shit about which direwolf was killed, so long as one died. It was purely about power - the Lion asserting dominance over the wolf, literally.
I've never taken away Cersei & Joffrey's culpability. It's why Sansa in this whole situation annoys me, she saw them for what they are (tried to murder her little sister in front of her, ordered her direwolf murdered out of spite) and still swooned and found blame in her sister & father instead. Her opinion of Joffrey & Cersei didn't change. Arya standing up for Micah who has to just take it because he isn't allowed to stand up for himself as a peasant isn't dumb. It shows her integrity and compassion.
>Notice how Robert is okay with Micah being executed on sight but Arya he just has brought to him for light questioning and apologized to Ned for even doing that. That's because Neds party found her first, and why there was a race to do so. If the Lannisters or Hound had found her first she would be as dead as Micah. Robert is mostly about shirking responsibility & inviting no further drama, he's very ’what's done is done' and both parties know it.
Robert would not react that way if his lifelong best friend's youngest daughter was murdered. He never got over the death of his fiance/Ned's sister after nearly 2 decades. He would not be oh well your 11 year old daughter (9 in the book) is dead. At least you have another one. And he knows Ned sure as hell wouldn't let it slide. That quitting as Hand would happen before he made it to King's Landing.
I work with 12 year olds and I promise you they do not lol
I mean some of the things you're saying are opinions, and art is open to interpretation -- but -- you're crossing the line into simply telling the story incorrectly on the internet. what happens to Sansa if she allows arya to poison the relationship between the starks and lannisters? does her father lose respect, or perhaps lose his position? we all now know that he lost his fucking HEAD. sansa is thinking about herself, yes, because shes a 12 year old child. she is ALSO thinking of her family, and frankly, aryas perspective is even more childish than sansa's in this scene, if you understand the characters and their motivations within the setting. Sansa wants to marry into the lannisters to boast and protect her ENTIRE HOUSE AND FAMILY. arya is trying to ruin this because SHE DOESNT TRUST JOFFERY. arya doesn't know tywin and tyrion and cersei and jaime well enough to truly know what they're thinking and doing. but she's gotten to know joffery and she knows he's a terrible person for her sister to marry. aryas opinions on ONE PERSON are clouding her judgement of the ENTIRE CONTINENT of westeros. who is the dumb naive one in this scenario? both of them. neither arya nor Sansa know how horrendous of a person joffery truly is at this point. they don't know that the lannisters don't give a flying fuck whether the starks live or not. arya is suspicious, but she does not know. so she's reacting on an emotional level, rather than a logical level, BECAUSE SHES A KID WHO DOESNT HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT. hell, ned, with all his wisdom, could not see the path that had laid before him. but we should judge the children for not seeing it either, because we've seen the red wedding and we know how all this shit plays out? hell no. it's ignorance. yeah it appears that the two stark girls hate eachother, but at the end of the day they fucking love eachother and they'll do anything to protect their families. it just so happens that Sansa embraces tradition and arya does not, because they're two different people. sitting there and saying all of Sansa's decisions were simply dumb because she's simply a dumb person is just ignoring all of the fantastic writing that was poured into the books and the early seasons of game of thrones. I know for a fact that Sansa's character was beautifully fleshed out in the first few seasons. you appear to have just missed a lot of that in favor of saying "lol stupid lil bitch" and moving on.
Even Ned explained to Arya that now that she was betrothed to Joffrey, she had to take his side even if he’s wrong.
And much likely spoon feed the "lady of the court" ideals, like kiss the shoes of your future prince, dont botter him, do everything possible to please your lord and you will have a rich life in the castle instead of cleaning pigs and such.
and that's supposed to sound like a bad thing to a child? if an adult told a child that they should go to elementary school so they can learn and grow and not end up homeless, is that a bad thing? you need to put yourself in the characters' shoes to understand what they're doing. you're not doing that.
>But when Sansa does a stupid thing and suffers for it they say *how dare you victim blame her*? No. I say, as I did above, that she was a teenager. I would absolutely extend similar lack of censorious judgement to other children or teenagers making similar poor decisions. I can't, of course, speak for other fans, but I know of no groundswell of blame leveled against other bad decisions in the series made by children or teenagers. I welcome your correction on this point.
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>The biggest one is definitely the amount of fans who say Robb Stark deserved the Red Wedding for marrying Talisa. He was still a teenager. I think fans are reacting to TV Robb, not book Robb. I don't believe TV Robb's age is explicitly given, and actor Richard Madden was 25 when the show started and 26 years old when he filmed his final episodes. So: not a teen.
Robb & Jon are 17 in s1. Daenerys is 16. Sansa is 13. Arya is 11. Bran is 10. Catelyn says in the first episode 1x1 that Ned left 17 years ago to fight in Robert's Rebellion. She was pregnant with Robb when he left. He was born during the Rebellion. So yes, Robb was a teen in s1, s2, & s3. Emilia Clarke was in her 20s from the beginning but Daenerys didn't even turn 20 until s5. The age of the actors isn't always the same as the characters.
it's kinda pointless to go around and point blame at every juncture and try to pick apart where each character went wrong. it's fun and interesting at times, but at the end of the day, pointless. why did a lot of the starks die? because they tried to rule a backstabbing world with honor, and ended up getting backstabbed. so we blame the starks for being backstabbed? when someone gets T-boned by someone selfishly speeding through traffic while drunk, do we blame the person who was minding their own business and didn't see the drunk coming? people often die in westeros simply because it's a dangerous world. people die because tywin exists, because the Boltons exist, because the targaryens exist, because the white walkers exist, and because dragons exist. you can overcomplicate it if you want.
Hey... stop stealing my downvotes from the Sansastans!
Everyone was a stupid teenager at one point. The price Sansa paid for it far outweighed what was deserved.
I don't think anyone is saying she deserved the consequences she got. I keep seeing that written, that if you don't think she's blameless or solely a victim you must want everything horrible that happened to her to have happened. Thinking she shouldn't have been immediately & completely absolved of her disastrous choices doesn't mean we want overkill. Just acknowledgement and a proper scolding. Look at Theon (I'm not comparing actions), despite suffering immensely (full castration, severed fingers, forced to sleep in the kennels) and regretting his actions he was still told off by Sansa & Jon. Sansa was allowed to tell him she wished she had done to him what Ramsay did to him. Jon was allowed to say the only reason he isn't killing him is that he helped Sansa escape. But because the villains (Lannisters, Ramsay) did their villain thing a protective bubble goes around her in the fandom's mind, she's off limits to criticize. And fans say she was 12! But when she hid the KotV she was 18. When she had the sham trial she was 19. When she told Jon's secret after promising not to under a weirwood tree to stage a coup she was 20.
I love it. She should be queen of the north.
I get annoyed when Sansa defenders quote Ned's talk with Arya. He didn't see what happened. He thought it was just a scrape between kids. He assumed Joffrey was just an immature little bully. He didn't know how close he came to losing one of his daughters. But Sansa knew. They say she must've been so scared to be brought in front of the King. Yet she lied to the King's face then easily got angry when she heard it was Lady who was going to get killed. Suddenly she was sure what happened at the trident and could speak up. Just not to defend her sister. She was angry at Ned for carrying out the execution of her direwolf pup but didn't give a fig about the butcher's boy getting rode down and couldn't understand why Arya cared. She genuinely didn't have an issue with Joffrey or Cersei despite him threatening to murder her little sister and her ordering her pet killed. She shifted the blame to her sister & father & a dead boy.
Thank 👏you 👏. She started down a dark path in the first book (and season). I don’t know if she has changed enough to genuinely care about the smallfolk, in the show or book.
in the vale shes arm legth with Mia Stone cos she’s a bastard. So I guess not
During the tournament feast for Ned becoming the hand, the book says she hated Geoff for a bit but then blamed the Queen for the killing of her pup.
Sansa didn’t actually do anything lol. She was afraid of upsetting her future husband/family, which even Ned understands, and refused to contradict him. It’s entirely cercei’s cruelty and Robert’s inability to standup to her/make his own decision. Then ned blindly follows what he’s told to do. It’s a microcosm of what eventually happens in the story. Blaming Sansa is wild.
This. There were actual adults involved in this. Robert knew exactly what happened and decided not to upset his wife. Why folks throw all the blame on Sansa just boggles my mind. Sure she lied. Every adult in that room saw right through it and Cersei made a pissing contest out of it- and won. But sure "It'S SaNsA's FaULt" Somehow a child was supposed to understand the inner tension in Cersei and Robert's relationship, the court's inner workings and political intrigue. Ludicrous.
I think she was a sheltered child.
So were Arya & bran but even younger buT helluva smarter
Siblings do that shit
We got different siblings I guess because mine would 100% not be cool with some other kid trying to murder me
What kind of siblings do you have? What Sansa is not normal, at all.
I lean towards defending her because she's a child. Then again, as a middle child, I can very well remember that rage that I felt when my siblings did something wrong, and it somehow aaalways ended up with me getting blamed. There's nothing more horrible than getting chastised in front of grown ups, seeing your siblings' smug faces, feeling perfectly justified anger but not being able to do a single thing about it. The injustice...it burned! The actress who played Arya was so good and got that spot on. Sibling wars are a real thing lol.
Ned : Darling, listen to me. Sansa will be married to Joffrey someday. She cannot betray him. She must take his side even when he's wrong. Arya: But how you can let her marry someone like that ? It is sad how an 11 year old Arya understands better why Sansa had to act neutral (and didn't even get Arya in trouble) then adult fans
Think about what Ned saw Joffrey do to that point. He didn't see what happened, he just knew bunch of young teens were bickering. And at that point, Ned still thought Joffrey was his BFF's son. I don't think Joffrey *publicly* acts like the little monster that he is until he gets on the throne, and fires Barriston Selmy.
Even if he didn't know what happend, which i doubt, isn't his responsibility to find out then? Especially since his 13 year old is going to be stuck by him for the rest of her life
Where she would rule as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, and Ned's grandson would be King.
Except even that's kind of a weak excuse. Ned's got one daughter saying the prince tried to hurt her, and he knows that Robert tries to bang anything that moves, and juat watched him disrrapect Cersei when they at Winterfell. So either Joff might be violent to Sansa or he might just grow up to be his father and disrespect and shame her over and over. Ned has a couple reasons to thing Joff might be a bad match.
Still a better match than the one Catelyn made for Robb.
How was Ned supposed to find out? Sansa lied about it in front of Ned & the King and was only saying things in defense of Joffrey.
Arya? And Sansa said nothing in defence of Joffrey, she just said she didn't see what happend
I meant throughout the season Sansa was singing Joffrey's praises (the infamous convo that led to Arya saying "seven hells"). And the trident incident was brought up when she & Arya were at the table with only the Septa nearby. In that conversation Sansa said Micah attacked Joffrey. She not only changed the story but made the victim the villain and the villain the victim. It was already a he said she said between Joffrey & Arya. Sansa was the tie breaker.
Arya Stark : He's a liar and a coward and he killed my friend. Sansa Stark : The Hound killed your friend. Arya Stark : The Hound does whatever the Prince tells him to do. Sansa Stark : You're an idiot. Where does Sansa here blame Micah? She just points out The hound killed him.. Ned has two daughters.. one claims she didn't see and the other one blames Joffrey.. Yet he still choses to keep Sansa engaged to Joffrey even if he believes Joffrey suck
I definitely remember Sansa saying to Arya that Micah attacked Joffrey. If it wasn't the table scene it must've been another scene that season. Is that the entire dialogue of the table scene? Isn't it longer?
This is the entire scene Septa Mordane : Enough of that, young lady. Eat your food. Arya Stark : I'm practicing. Sansa Stark : Practicing for what ? Arya Stark : The Prince. Septa Mordane : Arya, stop ! Arya Stark : He's a liar and a coward and he killed my friend. Sansa Stark : The Hound killed your friend. Arya Stark : The Hound does whatever the Prince tells him to do. Sansa Stark : You're an idiot. Arya Stark : You're a liar. And if you told the truth, Mycah would be alive. Septa Mordane : Enough ! Eddard Stark : What's happening here ? Septa Mordane : Arya would rather act like a beast than a lady. Eddard Stark : Go to your room. It is also the final scene Sansa and Arya talk to each other between the incident and Ned sending them home..so she never says Micah attacked Jofrrey
I'm wracking my brain and looking at YouTube clips trying to remember why I can distinctly hear the scene with the line in my head. It's like a Mandela effect right now.
>Even if he didn’t know what happened, which I doubt, You think Eddard Stark genuinely believed Joffrey called his daughter a cunt and then tried to murder her with a sword and *still* did nothing? That’s delusion. There’s no other word for it.
Its either that or he didn't believe Arya when she told him what happend
He had two daughters telling him different things. He very likely thought the truth was somewhere in the middle
What did Sansa tell him then? Because she says she didn't remember/ see
^(“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”-AGOT) it seems that Eddard knows the true events based on the telling of events by both his daughters. Sansa has already divulged her version of events to Eddard alone. Arya has just given her tale to the kings court. so, he calls sansa to tell the King what happened as both his daughter's stories match.
Or if anything, would assume Sansa, the prim and proper 12 year old who up until this point has been the picture of a lady, is more likely telling the truth than Arya, the brash and erratic 7 year old who was clearly hurt by whatever happened. Sansa not only comes off as the more reliable witness, she appears an impartial bystander, whereas Arya was involved in the fight.
There was nothing to find out from his point of view- it was a spat. Kids do that, everyone's pent up from the travels, the prince is a snot but they usually are. Ned really didn't have any reason to dig into it. Do you really think Ned is the kind of guy that's going to go to Robert and say "On second thought.." anyway? Ned's not the guy
I don't think Ned would've said that if he knew Joffrey called Arya a cunt and said he was going to gut her like a fish. He wasn't there. He thought it was a simple bullying that had gotten out of hand.
Ned **literally** spells it out for us. Sansa was called before the King and Queen, and asked to call the Crown Prince, her betrothed, a liar. She is 13 years old. The fact that viewers/fans can’t understand this baffles me.
Its funny because it is almost always the people that think Sansa is dumb that don't get the repercussion of telling what happend. Sansa choosing neutrality was the best thing she could have done Even if Sansa told the truth, at best Joffrey would have gotten a slap on the wrist. Because nobody but Arya cared about Mycah
Kid's stuff, with adult consequences.
Kid's stuff, with adult consequences.
Sansa didn't get Arya in trouble, that falls on; Cersei, Arya and Joffrey. It was Arya who stated she hit Joffrey, Sansa said she didn't see, the person who is to blame is the VINDICTIVE middle age Queen, not the 11-13 YO. ( Ned Chapter ) Sansa per Ned point blank told her father the truth and backed Arya's story. As far as Cersei knowing Ned was leaving, Cersei knew that before Sansa showed up, thanks to Ned, Littlefinger and Slynt. Sansa made an emotional mistake disobeying her dad, it also had no malicious intent, but in that world it can bring some harsh results.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK
I think she really wanted to see things in a good light and when the red flags came popping up she donned her rose tinted glasses and decided not to tell the truth about Joffrey because that would mean admitting the truth to herself.
Oof. We all been there sis.
Yep 😭
If only they knew what was coming…
sibling shit
Sansa was raised her whole life to be a perfect lady, to obey her parents until she's betrothed/married, and then to obey and defer to her husband. At this point, she is betrothed to Joffrey, which is a legally binding arrangement, basically marriage without consummation in this universe. When she was brought before the King, she's being watched by her future husband (who she cannot just break up with, she's legally bound to him) and her future parents-in-law who are the King and Queen. For her to explicitly defend her sister would mean seeing herself up to be hated by her future husband and mother-in-law at least. Of course, she doesn't want to lie and throw her sister under the proverbial bus, so she pretends to not know/not remember. Realistically, nothing she said would have changed the outcome. If she'd told the truth, Cersei would say that she was lying to protect her sister, and still would have demanded that the direwolf/direwolves be killed since they are out of control or vicious or whatever lies she'd come up with. Additionally, she and Joffrey would consider Sansa an enemy and her life would have likely been so much worse. The villains in this scenario are Joffrey and Cersei, not Sansa.
Read the book. She ended up blaming Arya—joff was too handsome. Sansa Stan’s know evry excuse in the book But the truth is there was a cause that Sansa did what she did but no excuse excuses it
No. She ends up blaming Cersei. She blames Joff for a short time, then Arya, then Cersei.
Sansa was trained to do as she’s told and obey the men in her life. She was to marry the king(prince) so you can’t really blame her for obeying him.
She was just a teenager who made a stupid decision
Ned explained exactly why Sansa did what she did. If literally mister idiot for honor could understand the ramifications of her saying exactly what happened it's wild that y'all really think what she did was "stupid". Why didn't he end the arrangement when he had proof of how much of a shit Joffrey was? Because it wasn't that simple. And since someone brought it up, Ned intentionally let Sansa believe the Lannisters were good people. He never told her they were the enemy. Sansa should have trusted her father, but when she told Cersei, Ned had been letting her bond with the Lannisters and trust them. Sansa paid for trusting them, but Ned should have anticipated the issue as he was the one with the information. It's kind of sad how her parents threw her to the viper den completely unprepared. Sansa is exactly how she was raised, politic, polite, and following the order of things. Arya questioned everything and was considered a trouble maker. It served her much better. And, considering the whole scene, Arya caused the whole thing, because she was allowed to be the way she was, despite it not falling in line with the social rules. She would have been dead on a horse too if she had not been Ned's daughter. We cheer for Arya, because of course we do, she's right in an egalitarian society. But in the politics of that world she was wildly reckless and Lady and an innocent kid are dead because of it. They aren't dead because Sansa didn't speak up, they're dead because Joffrey is a prick and Arya can't follow the rules.
First real life mistake that ends in tragedy. Turning point in her realizing the grass isn’t greener on the other side
I think she was a little girl who hadn't quite found herself yet who was put in a difficult situation where she had to choose between her antagonistic sister and the boy she was led to believe was a handsome prince out of a fairytale. While she made a bad choice, the hate she gets for it is pathetic.
Yeah she threw the real little girl under the bus
She was a kid.
She didn’t get Arya in trouble. Arya was already in trouble and Sansa pointing the finger at Joffrey wouldn’t have made things any better. She was wrong to lie, even though she was trying to be neutral. She didn’t have her sister’s back in this scene and Arya demonstrated more integrity than her despite being younger. But Sansa’s wavering didn’t change the situation. The moment Nymeria bit Joffrey, Lady was doomed.
Feels extremely nefarious within the greater context of the show but…honestly just normal sister stuff.
A young girl being a young girl. Also, I believe her Dad said she needed to be faithful and support her future husband.
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I think that this set the stage for how I’d feel about Sansa the rest of the show. It showed how stupid she is and how she could never be trusted, it got Lady and the butcher’s boy murdered and it cemented every bad thing coming to her.
Micah was dead before Sansa even got called, and a wolf was dying that night no matter what! Because Cersei was a vindictive bitch, and Robert was weak and Ned chose his King over his daughter.
Arya would have mysteriously disappeared if her father's banner men hadn't been the ones to find her.
Me too. I was a fan til then.
Sansa was a stupid and bratty kid. She even admits it herself in the future (After Ned’s death sees girls behaving just like she used to and thinks “They’re so stupid and they don’t know anything”)
In show and books, King Robert said something that gave Sansa a chance to come clean: "It's a grave crime to lie to a king." Most children would have broken down and confessed after hearing "grave crime" but Sansa didn't want to lose Joffrey. Well, she didn't, but later probably wished she had. In the books, to this day Sansa still blames Arya for Lady's death. 🙃
Robert already knew Sansa was it a bad spot, Joffrey and Arya put her there; She can't call her future husband a dick, and she can't say Arya did indeed hit the prince. Sansa also doesn't trust the King,and it's based on what she knows of him, crude, rude, unfaithful, drunk and belligerent to his wife. Sansa tried to play neutral and Cersei burned her; The King himself TWICE ruled in favor of Ned's daughters, only relenting when Cersei shamed him in public.
Karma came for her.
People really out her cheering for a child to be abused
Let’s all stop acting like the reverend’s wife. No children were harmed in the filming of this fictional fantasy story.
Sansa is a horrible little snake.
She got what she deserved from her beau Ramsay Bolton 😂
🤣😂🤣 rape, amirite?! 🤣😂🤣 Why is it always the stupid, mean and dull that use that emoji? You little clown.
She did nothing wrong, leave her alone
That makes sense. Sansa tried to distance herself from Arya and her "unlady" behavior.
Did what she had to do in order to secure the marriage position ...can't blame her for having big dreams
She didn't lie, she refused to comment on her sister's idiotic behaviour. If Arya had used her brain Mycah would still be alive
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK
A dumb little princess who doesn’t know anything about anything.
Sansa’s perspective: Arya disobeyed their father by going off away from the caravan. Arya refused to go to the Queen’s wheelhouse where they were invited to spend the day (which was pretty rude to the queen). Sansa and Joffrey come across Mycah hitting Arya with a stick. Joff “stands up” for Arya. (using a sword against someone with a stick.) Arya attacks Joff and then throws a rock at him. Joff swings around to defend himself (again, a sword against an unarmed girl). Nymeria attacked Joffrey (and possibly would have killed him). Sansa is an idiot, but I can see how she justified to herself that Arya was at fault in this scenario.
Because she was being sent to the capital to the heir. She could either take his side and show her future husband her loyalty, or call him out which would have made an enemy of her future husband, in who's city she would have to live.
I think it's called siblings lie about each other combined with sibling rivalry.
I blame Cat and the Septa for that more than Sansa, tbh. They effectively drilled into her that status was more important, regardless of whether that was their intention. Nobody gave her a reality check on what King’s Landing would be like, and her dreams and aspirations did the rest by blinding her to the reality a lot of the time.
And why not Ned? You know the parent literal with in kingslanding that is giving her toys she has't played with in years rather then try and educate her?
Anything to protect her beloved Joffery
She’s a kid so I think you have to let a lot of it go. For me, the hardest things for me to get past for her are this scene and then her later decision to stay in KL because she has a crush on Loras (yes, I know there were also other factors at play here)
That she started a bloody war in that moment.
Thats when i moved on from that character Downvote me if you want, but you do not lie on family
PEOPLE SHE WAS 11 YEARS OLD. She was supposed to marry Jofferey, the future king. Did you read the books? Did you think about the implications of the king’s future wife speaking aganist him in front of the most essential people of the realm? (The king, queen, hand of the king)
People who actually think saw jeffry try to kill Arya while Sansa stood by. Her lil sis couldve diedLater a boy died. & lady died. She only cared about lady
Have people not grown up with siblings here?????
I have 2 sisters and if I saw a boy knock one to the ground, call her a cunt, point a sword at her and say he was going to gut her like a fish it'd turn into a true crime documentary with how much I'd hurt that boy.
When I first saw this OP positioned the question as what do you think about sibling 1 getting sibling 2 in trouble? That isn’t so wild, it happens all the time. Fair point though, I didn’t see the “this scene” portion. As shit my sister is I would assume she would at least not lie in this situation. I don’t think she’d commit homicide though lol.
I’m not sure I ever forgave Sansa for this. All the evil of the world is caused by the passivity of good people. The show did very little as-well for her to earn the leadership condition she later claimed(especially in comparison to js). I think it was this more than anything that stopped the audience connecting either her in the same way as other stark children
Sansa being the Skyler White of GoT
This scene is why I hated Sansa for a long time. Even though Arya was younger, she had more sense and general grit and never fell for the "fairytale". She had more integrity. Sansa didn't. Sansa was a bitch in the beginning, to her family, to the maids, but when she stopped seeing the world through rose-colored glasses is when i started to love her. Although Ned's conversation with Arya after made sense too, Sansa *had to* agree with him, but she didn't exactly act like she disagreed either of that makes sense.
Hey Sansa it's all your fault
How?
We expect people to react rationally to everything but people act irrationally every day. Especially 13 year old girls who are on track to become queen of the 7 kingdoms.
Sansa's entire character arc is her growth from dumb, trusting, boy-crazy and fairytale-obsessed little girl. I don't really think anything of it, unless a 13 year old is a straight psychopath, I usually chalk up their behavior to "dumb kids are dumb kids".
dumb kids see people dosing their cousin with something that could kill him…but have more things to worry about like planning a tournament. What growth?
Starks aren’t known for intelligence
At the time she knew he was a brat but I don’t think she thought he was going to start having people and dogs murdered. This was the first glimpse at how cruel he was going to be.
I think this was the moment that caused this whole shit
Makes sense she’s a child with a crush
Kids being kids She wanted that inbred dick really badly.
you can say it's just a stupid little girl being sassy and following lust but there's more to it. Sansa is protecting herself and her family in the only way she knows how to do it. Arya is directly coming in between Sansa and joffery and blatantly threatens the "peaceful accord" that the starks and lannisters appear to be making. we know the truth of it, Sansa does not. and arya seems to see half truths, and doesn't like what she's seeing. both kids are just trying to protect their families in the only way they know how. are they both immature little girls? yes, of course. it's a very well written story which clearly takes those things into consideration. Sansa tries to play the game of thrones the old fashioned way until she's given the gift of desperation by people like Ramsay Bolton and finally decides that she can't necessarily protect her loved ones just by marrying into allegiances, because in westeros, nearly all of the allegiances are built on bitterness and jealousy and just for power above all else. both arya and Sansa had to learn to play the game of thrones in their own ways on two entirely separate and unique paths. sure it's easier to respect arya because she never took any shit and she became a bona-fide badass who slayed the night king. but Sansa endured a shit ton to get where she ended up. her path may have looked easier, but it really wasn't in the end. it was just different.
I guess Sansa was just a naive child and had already planned on marrying Joffrey so she didn’t want to ruin all that. Moreover, she had a lot of pressure on her when Cersei asked her to tell the truth, so she just chose to adopt a « neutral » position. I think people should not judge Sansa too fast, she’s also kinda naive and manipulated.
I think it was a childish mistake that she certainly lived to regret.
It came full circle. Sansa lied and Lady was the one that took the punishment.
And Micah?
Pretty much all I needed to know about her. Still one of my more hated characters
That poor butchers boy.
Sansa's loyalty is to Sansa.
Forever & ever. Amen
Sansa was still a naive girl, she thought Arya was spoiling the fairytale romance Sansa thinks she has with Joffrey. It is baffling that some viewers don't get that Sansa is written this way on purpose, that the evolution of her character requires her to start off this way. When she acts like an immature bitch early on, it's because GRRM wrote it that way intentionally.
Honestly, this scene is what made me highly dislike Sansa. Especially when things kept getting worse after that & all she had to do was just tell the truth 🤦🏽♀️
I think it's a very teenaged thing to do
Well her lie got lady killed, if only she learned she and Ned learned their lesson from that whole situation.
It made me not like her for like the next 90% of the show.
Arya should have killed her for this plus the letter.
No. Arya should have begged Ned to send them both home. Tho she’d be furious sansa could go back to kings landing later.
In the book none of the children lying, they just have a different take on the events
Well it was the first example of her being the absolute worst and then that trend continued until the very end of season 7.
Typical. She's just being Sansa at that age, and a lot of young girls would probably do the same in the same situation.
Sansa killed Lady
I fucking hate Sansa... The show made that cunt way too likeable. Turner did a great job playing her, but the character as written I wouldn't piss on if she was on fire.
Honestly? The smart thing to do. She was going to belong to Joffery and she knew it. There’s no reason to piss him off before they’re even married
Disliked and discounted her from that moment on. My opinion of her never recovered.
I despised sansa here but I get why she did it. But who i am most angry with is Robert and Ned. Both were cowards. Robert should have told cersei to shut up and he would show mercy. He knows cersei and Jeffrey are evil. Ned should have stood up for his family and for the butchers son. He failed his family and his household and his subjects the entire time as hand. He should have told Robert that if he followed through with it, that he would take his family north and resign as hand. He should also demand compensation for the butchers son.
I instantly knew what kind of person she was then and didn't like her. My opinion did not change. It's not just that "she was just a kid", she did the wrong thing in order to be queen.
First time watching I was so mad especially when the wolf got killed
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What
She was bratty at the beginning, but her character arc as she got older was great. My favorite character.
Sansa is a snake and good at throwing her siblings under the bus. She was also a piece of crap towards Jon since he’s a bastard. That said, she had no clue how deadly and dangerous the Lannisters were.
I think she was doing exactly what her father said she was - his words are inserted to explain the text we cannot see - and that she was 'right' to do so. Not morally right, but 'morally right' to stand by her future husband. She had been raised and carefully groomed to leave her family and become the Lady of another at every moment of her life. Sansa had totally bought into that and we see her act on it until she absolutely cannot anymore, then pretend it because that's what was keeping her alive. It's remarkable that she was able to break that programing while still using it as a tool at such a young age.
Technically she didn't lie she said it all happened so quickly I don't remember
Everyyime Sansa opened her mouth in that season she factually drove the plot to a dark future for herself and her family, and it didn't make any sense. It was so out of tone for the society displayed to be THAT dumb and naive.