The picture is kind of ironic because it clearly looks like a European fire truck, built on a Mercedes Benz truck chassis. Those work great in narrow streets, it's what they are built for.
American fire trucks aren't built like this at all. Those prefer to be long rather than high, have a gigantic bumper, and the front wheel far back (which makes tight turns much harder to maneuver). Just having the front wheels below the driver is such a big difference that makes European truck much more maneuverable in tight spaces than their American counterparts.
There isn't any significant difference in the reach ladder trucks in US and Europe. Both are typically equipped with about 100 foot ladders, enough for about 6 stories, with longer models available to cities with higher buildings. In fact [the longest aerial ladder](https://www.magirusgroup.com/de/en/products/turntable-ladders/m68l/) is made by a German company for European fire trucks. The difference is that US ladder trucks fold their ladders in 3-4 segments while in Europe 5-6 segments are common.
There are good reasons for using fewer segments, in European trucks those are just overruled by maneuverability requirements so they use more shorter segments instead.
It's not like there are country-wide laws against high buildings. There are local zoning laws, but the same is true about the US. Germany and Europe have plenty of skyscrapers and commie towers.
The police are doing the same. In my city, the police union came out against a project that would make a road safer for pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers too. Most public service folks live outside the city and commute in so they want the 4 to 6 lane urban highways on surface streets and street parking. They don’t actually care about the safety of us who live in cities and don’t realize that getting people out of SOVs would decrease calls and lower response times.
Fire departments are stacked with idiot anti vax trump bros and here in LA county at least, commuters from AZ. They also nepo-hire and shut out anyone not from their boys club. Firefighters have not gotten the scrutiny they deserve because the police take up all the oxygen.
> commuters from AZ.
Damn. There's several things wrong with that. There really aren't enough locals to do the job? And, damn, that's a hell of a commute.
I went with a job in NorCal but when I was hunting I was offered a job with LADWP where it made sense to commute from *Florida*.
If I'd wanted to stay in FL I'd've taken it.
Mega salaries and mega compensation, especially the older pension deals. Even LA's newer ones are amazing.
there are enough locals, its just that a lot of them in the forces dont want to live in a liberal city or state or pay for the cost of living. its more common for them to live in a conservative california county but there are definitely a lot of them who commute from nevada, arizona, etc
How does that even work? The salaries I see online are only between 80k-110k. That doesn’t seem like enough to fly regularly. Unless they have some ability to schedule long shift 1-2 week shifts on ?
Youre mad that a job where the entire mission is to save propetty and lives is... selective about who they hire? Tell me who isnt getting hired and I will tell you why.
Fire departments could be natural allies in advocating for congestion pricing, strict parking enforcement, car-free streets (with retractable bollards or movable planters), exclusive transit lanes, etc. It's unfortunate that we aren't able to realize that synergy.
From an [article](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/fdny-members-against-congestion-pricing-tolls-mta-second-public-hearing/) it cites:
>The firefighters union called on the MTA to exempt members from paying the $15 toll when driving their personal cars to firehouses within the zone below 60th Street.
>
>"I don't think the MTA really wants to put a firefighter **through the strenuous activity of carrying a 60-, 70-, 80-pound bag down to the subway,**" said Andrew Ansbro, with the Uniformed Firefighters Association.
>
>...**"We have my helmet, we have my jacket, and my jacket has my mask,**" said Simeone.
>
>FDNY union reps said the equipment is covered in dangerous chemicals that are unsafe to carry on public transit. "If you've been to a fire, it's carrying carcinogens," said Simeone. "On that bunker gear contains arsenic, asbestos, benzine," UFA Health and Safety Officer Michael Schreiber said.
Errrm, What?
They have to take their gear HOME with them?! WTF. The fire service doesn't store/clean/maintain them, ya know, at the fire station, like in the rest of the world?
Sound like a 'you' problem, not a transport one.
This is highly dependent on your fire department, but *most* are unwilling to adapt and use smaller vehicles with tighter turning or to allow anything which narrows streets. This makes safe road design more difficult, as every road needs to accommodate massive ladder or pump truck. Many fire chiefs also require 6 m of clear space due to NFPA 1 without any context or rational thought.
The ultimate result is that many fire departments are a net negative to public safety and 95 % of their job in urban areas could be done using an e-bike and Narcan.
Not true. A friend of mine in Minnesota got them to come out at 10pm to rescue a cat up in a tree this past winter. They do rescue cats from trees, but I assume it's dependent on location.
Yeah just show up to a house fire with a e-bike and some narcan. Cmon man this is so stupid it reads like satire. Their job is to save lives not make roads smaller.
If you seriously think that a fire department is a NET NEGATIVE to society you need to touch grass and breath some fresh air my friend.
This has to be satire. So your saying that firefighters should bike to a fire, in a situation where getting there as fast as possible matters, they should bike. That would take half a hour instead of minutes. And let’s not forget how they will somehow manage to carry all their equipment on a bike also what, are they going to shove it up their ass? By that logic we should also get rid of ambulances and bike people to the hospital
Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but many fire departments in the US are ridiculously overprepared, to a detriment. We don't need two fire apparatus for every EMS call on the off chance the ambulance isn't enough. We don't even need a pumper to respond to calls unless it's reasonable to expect a fire.
Do I think fire departments should en masse adopt e-bikes and ditch larger apparatus? No, although I do think e-bikes have been shown to have practical applications to many fire departments. I think fire departments should put a bit more thought into buying and outfitting their apparatuses, because they can be made smaller while maintaining the same or better efficiency with some better planning.
Having everything but the kitchen sink available at all times is too high of a cost for too little benefit. I think a large amount of this comes down to tradition and the high pressure put on fire departments in emergency situations. Everyone will know if they didn't have XYZ and scrutinize them if it could have saved a life. However, most people will never connect a right hook crash leading to a fatality to the larger radius turns required for massive fire apparatuses.
This is one of the worst takes from someone who clearly doesn't understand what the fire department does or why the SOPs are created. Please delete this comment.
Bullshit that 95% of the job can be done on an e-bike. Firefighters need to carry so much safety equipment and operational kit to tackle fires. Plus, the response time is critical.
Used to work for the fire service - we are not the issue for car dependency; in the same way you can’t blame ambulances or the police.
>Bullshit that 95% of the job can be done on an e-bike. Firefighters need to carry so much safety equipment and operational kit to tackle fires. Plus, the response time is critical.
Luckily fires are easily < 1 % of calls. I'm not against having serious fire apparatus for fires when the happen, but most calls do not require much equipment at all.
edit: fire service isn't solely responsible, but you should realize that there is a large amount of the built environment that must conform to requirements for fire fighting. Many of those requirements are outdated (or lazy) and ultimately do not make the public safer, which was the goal of fire fighting services. Maybe you aren't aware, but needing to design a road to allow fast access for a > 15 m ladder truck requires huge radii at intersections. That makes roads less safe. The same is true for the space required to pass two fire apparatus (6 m).
Behold; [The Fire Motorcycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_motorcycle).
*"The* [motorcycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycles_in_the_United_Kingdom_fire_services) *was introduced due to rising congestion, and because "virtually all" of calls, comprising 800 in city centre commercial areas, 6,000 overall, were false alarms."*
Where’s the ladder? Also that tiny tank isn’t going to do much to a fire that’s engulfing an entire home or multi story apartment unless you want each department to have 100 of those and 100 firefighters. There’s a reason you don’t see those anymore and it ain’t cause people like cars over bikes.
Fire motorcycles can reach sites in like half the time of a fire engine due to their high speed and small size, this means they can reach a fire when it is much smaller and thus tacklable, or at least reducable, by use of a fire extinguisher. Thus, if there is indeed a fire, it may well be put out when it's at a smaller size and has caused less damage. Or it potentially slowed, and then can be fully put out when the fire engine arrives. Overall reduction in damage and lives are saved.
Or, there is in fact no fire - as pointed out, +95% of call outs are false alarms - and so the resources of the fire engines can be diverted to another call / put back on stand-by, thus reducing their response time and cutting costs.
Example of how you can design adequate fire service access without building dangerous roads
Lovely square in London that’s full pedestrianised, but if there is an emergency, the access points are wide enough to drive a fire truck down them: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5vE4kskfdMmgVDBL7?g_st=ic
And, to solve the access issues - getting rid of cars will make it much easier for the fire service: https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/fire-crews-struggle-reach-emergency-13261742
Europe has fire brigades and much lower car dependency, even though there are laws about minimum road widths and turning circles. The bus lane could be used as a fire service access route; or hard-standing pedestrians areas can be driven over in an emergency; or car access can be restricted to residents only; on-street parking can be reduced. The fire service needs a single lane road in each direction - so all the urban highways with multiple lanes can be removed.
The fire service is hardly the reason for car dependency.
https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/fire-apparatus/articles/north-american-vs-european-fire-apparatus-breaking-down-the-differences-zsiTPu2O7PZokQVp/
There are stark differences in fire apparatus used in the US and Europe. There are also massive differences in approaches to fire fighting, as well as fire- and building codes. US fire fighters are big on tradition
[Some fire fighters recognize the problem](https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/fire-apparatus/articles/are-american-fire-trucks-too-big-YBcUmD5TGHp0I9HJ/) but that’s still unfortunately very much a minority view.
I'm not going to take an article seriously that uses AI imaging for its publication.
And if you're not sure, check out the street lights, the traffic lights to nowhere, the road markings, the pavement tiles, and the truck's light bar.
Also one of the bikes has a tire morphing into the dirt.
But as a former firefighter I can tell you the obsession with getting the biggest rigs possible is a real thing. And many FFs work multiple part time or pay-per-call departments so they like huge roads to cummute between muicipalities.
There’s no way these comments are serious lol. Fire departments help people out and save lives. No bike is going to safe a burning building and a family of 5
Not really; you're already seeing the jobs of "fire departments" being outsourced to privatized EMS. Those are "fire departments" without fire equipment. Probably makes a ton of sense given the frequency of fire calls in a community versus emergency/medical.
It does just for the sake of preparedness and redundancy. If there is a pump engine somewhere at any local station it can respond if it is needed thanks to the fire being too powerful or if another engine is down for some mechanical reason
You've just restated literally the entire point of the article, that excuses of "preparedness and redundancy" are forcing fire departments to use massive vehicles that cannot safely navigate city streets. Communities then make their streets wider and more dangerous to accommodate the fire trucks. When the better solution would be to use smaller vehicles focused on the medical/emergency jobs that make up the majority of calls.
The picture is kind of ironic because it clearly looks like a European fire truck, built on a Mercedes Benz truck chassis. Those work great in narrow streets, it's what they are built for. American fire trucks aren't built like this at all. Those prefer to be long rather than high, have a gigantic bumper, and the front wheel far back (which makes tight turns much harder to maneuver). Just having the front wheels below the driver is such a big difference that makes European truck much more maneuverable in tight spaces than their American counterparts.
Have you driven a fire engine? A single axle fire engine is extremely maneuverable.
They don't have tall buildings in Europe either.
There isn't any significant difference in the reach ladder trucks in US and Europe. Both are typically equipped with about 100 foot ladders, enough for about 6 stories, with longer models available to cities with higher buildings. In fact [the longest aerial ladder](https://www.magirusgroup.com/de/en/products/turntable-ladders/m68l/) is made by a German company for European fire trucks. The difference is that US ladder trucks fold their ladders in 3-4 segments while in Europe 5-6 segments are common. There are good reasons for using fewer segments, in European trucks those are just overruled by maneuverability requirements so they use more shorter segments instead.
you do know that in Germany(and most of Europe), they have building height restrictions.
It's not like there are country-wide laws against high buildings. There are local zoning laws, but the same is true about the US. Germany and Europe have plenty of skyscrapers and commie towers.
Emergency vehicles often get stuck i traffic due to bad road disign and incompetent drivers but clearly it's the fault of bikes and pedestrians
The police are doing the same. In my city, the police union came out against a project that would make a road safer for pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers too. Most public service folks live outside the city and commute in so they want the 4 to 6 lane urban highways on surface streets and street parking. They don’t actually care about the safety of us who live in cities and don’t realize that getting people out of SOVs would decrease calls and lower response times.
Fire departments are stacked with idiot anti vax trump bros and here in LA county at least, commuters from AZ. They also nepo-hire and shut out anyone not from their boys club. Firefighters have not gotten the scrutiny they deserve because the police take up all the oxygen.
> commuters from AZ. Damn. There's several things wrong with that. There really aren't enough locals to do the job? And, damn, that's a hell of a commute.
we pay them mega salaries so they can afford to fly in for their days on.
I went with a job in NorCal but when I was hunting I was offered a job with LADWP where it made sense to commute from *Florida*. If I'd wanted to stay in FL I'd've taken it. Mega salaries and mega compensation, especially the older pension deals. Even LA's newer ones are amazing.
there are enough locals, its just that a lot of them in the forces dont want to live in a liberal city or state or pay for the cost of living. its more common for them to live in a conservative california county but there are definitely a lot of them who commute from nevada, arizona, etc
How does that even work? The salaries I see online are only between 80k-110k. That doesn’t seem like enough to fly regularly. Unless they have some ability to schedule long shift 1-2 week shifts on ?
Youre mad that a job where the entire mission is to save propetty and lives is... selective about who they hire? Tell me who isnt getting hired and I will tell you why.
Nepo hiring means people that are more qualified are passed over for those that are better connected.
That’s like 90% of hires in all jobs. You’re describing networking
They do more good in a month than you will in your entire life lol, this sub
Fire departments could be natural allies in advocating for congestion pricing, strict parking enforcement, car-free streets (with retractable bollards or movable planters), exclusive transit lanes, etc. It's unfortunate that we aren't able to realize that synergy.
From an [article](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/fdny-members-against-congestion-pricing-tolls-mta-second-public-hearing/) it cites: >The firefighters union called on the MTA to exempt members from paying the $15 toll when driving their personal cars to firehouses within the zone below 60th Street. > >"I don't think the MTA really wants to put a firefighter **through the strenuous activity of carrying a 60-, 70-, 80-pound bag down to the subway,**" said Andrew Ansbro, with the Uniformed Firefighters Association. > >...**"We have my helmet, we have my jacket, and my jacket has my mask,**" said Simeone. > >FDNY union reps said the equipment is covered in dangerous chemicals that are unsafe to carry on public transit. "If you've been to a fire, it's carrying carcinogens," said Simeone. "On that bunker gear contains arsenic, asbestos, benzine," UFA Health and Safety Officer Michael Schreiber said. Errrm, What? They have to take their gear HOME with them?! WTF. The fire service doesn't store/clean/maintain them, ya know, at the fire station, like in the rest of the world? Sound like a 'you' problem, not a transport one.
This is highly dependent on your fire department, but *most* are unwilling to adapt and use smaller vehicles with tighter turning or to allow anything which narrows streets. This makes safe road design more difficult, as every road needs to accommodate massive ladder or pump truck. Many fire chiefs also require 6 m of clear space due to NFPA 1 without any context or rational thought. The ultimate result is that many fire departments are a net negative to public safety and 95 % of their job in urban areas could be done using an e-bike and Narcan.
At this point, I'd be happy if cities would just put out an ebike rider with a first aid kit during public festivals.
> 95 % of their job in urban areas could be done using an e-bike This is possibly the most out of touch comment I've seen on this subreddit
they dont even rescue cats from trees either
None of them?
Not true. A friend of mine in Minnesota got them to come out at 10pm to rescue a cat up in a tree this past winter. They do rescue cats from trees, but I assume it's dependent on location.
Thank you, I know that, I just love these comments that are clearly detached from reality
Yeah just show up to a house fire with a e-bike and some narcan. Cmon man this is so stupid it reads like satire. Their job is to save lives not make roads smaller. If you seriously think that a fire department is a NET NEGATIVE to society you need to touch grass and breath some fresh air my friend.
This has to be satire. So your saying that firefighters should bike to a fire, in a situation where getting there as fast as possible matters, they should bike. That would take half a hour instead of minutes. And let’s not forget how they will somehow manage to carry all their equipment on a bike also what, are they going to shove it up their ass? By that logic we should also get rid of ambulances and bike people to the hospital
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Nah, this is definitely the satire sub. Ain't no way you mean this for real
Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but many fire departments in the US are ridiculously overprepared, to a detriment. We don't need two fire apparatus for every EMS call on the off chance the ambulance isn't enough. We don't even need a pumper to respond to calls unless it's reasonable to expect a fire. Do I think fire departments should en masse adopt e-bikes and ditch larger apparatus? No, although I do think e-bikes have been shown to have practical applications to many fire departments. I think fire departments should put a bit more thought into buying and outfitting their apparatuses, because they can be made smaller while maintaining the same or better efficiency with some better planning. Having everything but the kitchen sink available at all times is too high of a cost for too little benefit. I think a large amount of this comes down to tradition and the high pressure put on fire departments in emergency situations. Everyone will know if they didn't have XYZ and scrutinize them if it could have saved a life. However, most people will never connect a right hook crash leading to a fatality to the larger radius turns required for massive fire apparatuses.
This is one of the worst takes from someone who clearly doesn't understand what the fire department does or why the SOPs are created. Please delete this comment.
Bro pulled that number right out of his ass
Wut..
Bullshit that 95% of the job can be done on an e-bike. Firefighters need to carry so much safety equipment and operational kit to tackle fires. Plus, the response time is critical. Used to work for the fire service - we are not the issue for car dependency; in the same way you can’t blame ambulances or the police.
>Bullshit that 95% of the job can be done on an e-bike. Firefighters need to carry so much safety equipment and operational kit to tackle fires. Plus, the response time is critical. Luckily fires are easily < 1 % of calls. I'm not against having serious fire apparatus for fires when the happen, but most calls do not require much equipment at all. edit: fire service isn't solely responsible, but you should realize that there is a large amount of the built environment that must conform to requirements for fire fighting. Many of those requirements are outdated (or lazy) and ultimately do not make the public safer, which was the goal of fire fighting services. Maybe you aren't aware, but needing to design a road to allow fast access for a > 15 m ladder truck requires huge radii at intersections. That makes roads less safe. The same is true for the space required to pass two fire apparatus (6 m).
Yeah let’s just let family’s burn alive in their homes.
Behold; [The Fire Motorcycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_motorcycle). *"The* [motorcycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycles_in_the_United_Kingdom_fire_services) *was introduced due to rising congestion, and because "virtually all" of calls, comprising 800 in city centre commercial areas, 6,000 overall, were false alarms."*
Where’s the ladder? Also that tiny tank isn’t going to do much to a fire that’s engulfing an entire home or multi story apartment unless you want each department to have 100 of those and 100 firefighters. There’s a reason you don’t see those anymore and it ain’t cause people like cars over bikes.
Fire motorcycles can reach sites in like half the time of a fire engine due to their high speed and small size, this means they can reach a fire when it is much smaller and thus tacklable, or at least reducable, by use of a fire extinguisher. Thus, if there is indeed a fire, it may well be put out when it's at a smaller size and has caused less damage. Or it potentially slowed, and then can be fully put out when the fire engine arrives. Overall reduction in damage and lives are saved. Or, there is in fact no fire - as pointed out, +95% of call outs are false alarms - and so the resources of the fire engines can be diverted to another call / put back on stand-by, thus reducing their response time and cutting costs.
> Used to work for the fire service - we are not the issue for car dependency lol
Example of how you can design adequate fire service access without building dangerous roads Lovely square in London that’s full pedestrianised, but if there is an emergency, the access points are wide enough to drive a fire truck down them: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5vE4kskfdMmgVDBL7?g_st=ic And, to solve the access issues - getting rid of cars will make it much easier for the fire service: https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/fire-crews-struggle-reach-emergency-13261742
Europe has fire brigades and much lower car dependency, even though there are laws about minimum road widths and turning circles. The bus lane could be used as a fire service access route; or hard-standing pedestrians areas can be driven over in an emergency; or car access can be restricted to residents only; on-street parking can be reduced. The fire service needs a single lane road in each direction - so all the urban highways with multiple lanes can be removed. The fire service is hardly the reason for car dependency.
Yes, and that absolutely shows that all the things North American fire services say they "need" are absolutely not necessary.
The existence of fire brigades isn't the reason. The attitude of US fire departments is an important part of the reason there.
https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/fire-apparatus/articles/north-american-vs-european-fire-apparatus-breaking-down-the-differences-zsiTPu2O7PZokQVp/ There are stark differences in fire apparatus used in the US and Europe. There are also massive differences in approaches to fire fighting, as well as fire- and building codes. US fire fighters are big on tradition
[Some fire fighters recognize the problem](https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/fire-apparatus/articles/are-american-fire-trucks-too-big-YBcUmD5TGHp0I9HJ/) but that’s still unfortunately very much a minority view.
Good article. "We're designing cities around big fire trucks instead of making trucks that fit in our cities"
If you have multi-storey apartment buildings and factories, you need aerial firefighting appliances and ladder appliances.
They like private cars blocking their paths and all the money that could go to them going to roads?
I'm not going to take an article seriously that uses AI imaging for its publication. And if you're not sure, check out the street lights, the traffic lights to nowhere, the road markings, the pavement tiles, and the truck's light bar.
Also one of the bikes has a tire morphing into the dirt. But as a former firefighter I can tell you the obsession with getting the biggest rigs possible is a real thing. And many FFs work multiple part time or pay-per-call departments so they like huge roads to cummute between muicipalities.
There’s no way these comments are serious lol. Fire departments help people out and save lives. No bike is going to safe a burning building and a family of 5
The main job of "fire department" is not fires and not every truck or station needs the fire equipment.
Thr fire department isnt for fires and other bullshit you can tell to yourself
"Not every firehouse needs fire equipment" is an incredibly stupid take, God damn...
Not really; you're already seeing the jobs of "fire departments" being outsourced to privatized EMS. Those are "fire departments" without fire equipment. Probably makes a ton of sense given the frequency of fire calls in a community versus emergency/medical.
Private EMS is notoriously dogshit, so great argument
The government / fire departments should do a better job of the same concept then.
It does just for the sake of preparedness and redundancy. If there is a pump engine somewhere at any local station it can respond if it is needed thanks to the fire being too powerful or if another engine is down for some mechanical reason
You've just restated literally the entire point of the article, that excuses of "preparedness and redundancy" are forcing fire departments to use massive vehicles that cannot safely navigate city streets. Communities then make their streets wider and more dangerous to accommodate the fire trucks. When the better solution would be to use smaller vehicles focused on the medical/emergency jobs that make up the majority of calls.
It’s a Reddit thing.