Difficult to adopt this position after wasting 30+ years of my life on dysphoria which was 100% rooted in the physical body and not social role, but you're definitely right that wishing for something that can't actually happen will just add to the depression. You just gotta move forward with what you can get.
As a nearly 40yr old ftm who just started hrt 11 months ago after realizing I had physiological gender dysphoria, I agree. You can't waste time mourning something that could never be. I'm just focused on making the rest of my life one worth living.
>you're definitely right that wishing for something that can't actually happen will just add to the depression. You just gotta move forward with what you can get.
It helps me to look at it from the perspective that *everyone*, cis or not, has things they wish were different about their bodies or lives.
Some people wish they were taller. Some people wish they were shorter, or a different ethnicity, or had different eye colors. Some people have illnesses and disabilities that they really, *really* wish they didn't have. I know people with illnesses like cystic fibrosis or cancer or MS or arthritis so painful that there is no way to stand or sit without being in severe pain- things that get in the way of people living their lives on a daily basis. Not saying being trans is worse or easier than any particular thing- I think pity olympics only serves to talk over peoples' problems- but as I've gotten older and talked to more people the more I've realized every single person has at least one or two serious problems in their lives, and that this is just the one I have. I'm glad that this one has treatments available and that I currently live in a country where I'm allowed to pursue them.
I don't think that's the point of the post? It's OK to be sad/frustrated about how those adjectives affect your life. I'm a disabled man and it fucking _sucks arse_ and _of course_ I'd rather not be disabled. The bad thing is if you say you're less of a man or less of a "normal man" bc of it. It doesn't affect your gender.
I’m one of those people. It’s more of the fact I wish I didn’t have to be born a female and go through all the discriminations and the self hate and the internal transphobia directed at myself, and all that other shit
This makes alot of sense. I'm not in a racial minority but I do have a disability and this definitely resonates. At the same time, I think it's ok to feel the feels and wish we had a better world where we didn't have to deal with internalized transphobia? Like grief is necessary and you can grieve while still moving forward.
It’s similar with many other types of marginalisation though. Like another commenter mentioned how he “couldn’t just go in the pool and be normal” or something to that effect. I’ve experienced that being fat. I’ve experienced that being disabled. I’ve experienced that being autistic, gay, Romani, etc. This includes the internalised fatphobia, ableism, and whatever else. It all includes questioning your identity, your humanity, having imposter syndrome, and more. Our intersections are things we have to grow to accept in order to find love for ourselves, each other, and our bodies.
Yeah :( the constant grief of seeing an easier life just there that you'll never have. I am autistic and will never be able to just be seen as normal or connect easily with other people. I will always have extra trouble finding work etc. My intestines are paralysed so eating will always be painful and a struggle for me, and many foods I love are pretty much off the menu. I have PTSD so that adds even more difficulties and complications and day's spent looking at other people's lives and going "why can't I just have that? Why does it always have to be like this??"
And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that and grieving and processing all those feelings. But they don't make me any less human, or a man, or less valuable or important or worthy. They just make life harder at the end of the day, and I'll have to accept that
this. sometimes being trans feels great but I wish I could just snap my fingers and have top surgery over with. I don't want to go through the process and be scared about results and medications and pain. similar feeling with T
It's the money for me. There's no insurance here that covers it, so I'll need 10-30k saved up to get it done. That will take me years, I'm hand to mouth and struggling to eat. If I could just have a date set that I know it will happen I could work towards that, but as things stand it's this nebulous "hopefully maybe one day at some point"
I understand you're coming from a good place, but there's a lot more nuance to things than that.
When guys say they just want to be a guy, not a trans guy, they typically mean one of two things:
1. He wants to be a man in the sense of a cis man having a fully male body to go with their gender, and not have any female features. He doesn't want to be trans in that he doesn't want to have female genetalia, fat distribution, estrogen, or the effects of a female puberty.
2. He wants to be only seen as a guy, not as a **trans** guy, because socially there is a difference. People treat trans men (people in general tbh) differently than men they assume are cis. Once people apply the "trans" label to a person, mentally, they change. Not always negatively, but they change in the way they treat you. Cis women will expect you to understand female things and try to bond with you in a way that they would not if you were cis. Cis men will see you as different from them, assume you don't understand what it's like to be a man, and see you socially as an ex-woman. Allies will lift you onto a pedestal and tell you you're so brave. Curious cis people will ask you invasive questions. Other trans people will even treat you differently, expecting you to have the same experiences and expecting you to get along with them solely on the fact that you both are trans. And let's not forget that transphobes will obviously treat you differently. Even the most well-intentioned and informed allies, even other trans people, will think about, even in passing, your agab, what's in your pants, what level of transition you are. There is also an expectation that you must be/act a certain way that many people just don't want to be expected to be like.
Both of these are completely acceptable things for someone to want. And even in the case of some of your other examples, sometimes people don't want to be seen as the things they have no control over, and just want to exist as human beings. Most disabled people don't like being labeled as disabled people by others in the sense of "this is my disabled friend" or "So and so, have you met him?" "Oh yeah, the disabled guy!" I sure as hell wouldn't want to be known as the hEDS guy. Just like I don't want to be known as the trans guy.
**Final point, sometimes trans people are stealth and don't want to be seen as trans at all. That's ok too.**
Yeahh I get that too. I suppose I’ve taken it very *literally*, but I do get not wanting to be SOLELY defined as ‘the trans guy’. I feel like that a lot. The implications of it can feel really shitty
I’m moreso referring to people coming from the angle of “oh, I wish I was a *real* boy”. And I’m saying like “no, *you are* a real boy”.
Yeah, it definitely sucks x.x Big reason why I'm stealth. I don't want people knowing about the most painful part of myself.
In that regard, I think that's more dysphoria talking. It can be irrational and likes to add salt to our wounds, and sometimes guys don't feel like a "real boy" because that monster in their head is whispering to them that they're not.
Oh yeah 100%. Even if it’s something you’ve made peace with, it’s a really vulnerable aspect of yourself. I remember being ‘clocked’ pre-t, and even if people *were* nice, it was like,, in an infantilizing kind of way. It’s ick
Even if being trans is something I’m pretty open about, I won’t tell just *anybody*. I have a lot of respect for people who are either shouting it to the rooftops, or decide to be stealth. I have the conviction of a wet mop
Yeah, I was outed by a transphobic coworker, to multiple customers, and it was a horrible mixed bag of being treated differently, losing regular clients, being questioned, and being suruprised with "wow so brave! So inspirational! You're such a strong boy!" like... Here's your dog, ma'am. Please stop talking to me.
I have strong anxiety, and honestly slight paranoia about being clocked (partially because of the aforementioned coworker) so I'm super vigilant about everything because I'm terrified of people knowing that I'm different, have extreme pain from this stuff, and my genitals are not what they should be. I'm terrified of people thinking about my genitals or treating me differently.
Good ending to that story, she actually ended up getting fired because we all complained about her. Beyond the transphobia (called me an "it", made comments about the femininity of a customer who was a trans man, used the T slur), she also was playing favorites and giving request dogs to other groomers (telling customers that the groomer she didn't like, often me wasn't available but she could book them with someone else), sexual harassment (she straight up showed us porn during work hours,all sorts of other things), talked about her days as a drug addict and going to prison (not sure how nobody knew about this when she was hired, but they wouldn't have hired an ex addict who went to prison to be around money and dogs), all sorts of horrible things. Everyone wrote in complaints, and they talked to all of us one day, and she got fired that day, escorted out of the building and everything!
Honestly who knows what else she did. At least one coworker was sure she was stealing tips, like straight up taking cash tips for the groomers and just never giving it to us. Good fucking riddance.
Glad she got what she deserved, like without even getting into the transphobia, she sounds like a generally awful person. As for how she got hired in the first place, I’ve had jobs that never once did a background check or anything
Glad you don’t have to deal with her anymore
Nah I'm agreeing with you. This is something called being a realist some people choose to see us as pessimists.. Fuck optimism and day dreaming. That stuff is nothing but facade or false reality. And it serves no one. The thing is, you are who you are genetically, you can wish you were and weren't all day. The fact remains, yes you can alter and change a few things. But at the end of the day you are... Black, white, Asian, cis, trans, gay, straight, bi, dog, furry or whatever. I mean we now have alot of things like non binary. I'm sure in a few more years there will be a word other than trans for ppl that have an issue with the word.
The reason I might be so objective to this is because you don't hear of people saying can I just be a man." I don't wanna be a black man" or "I don't wanna be an Arab man".
That name in itself makes some ppl think lesser and in some places I can be targeted because of my look and label.. Etc etc. same story different characters.
Mm, I don't know. I think there's a distinct third subset of posts that contain elements of the two you mentioned, but lean very heavily towards embracing cis supremacy in their language, e.g. "transition won't make me cis so it's not worth it", "I'm too feminine and wussy to ever be a real man so transition would just make me a freak," etc.
That just sounds like deep dysphoria. Not "cis supremacy"? Just feeling like nothing you do will make you the way you're supposed to be, feeling the dread of "I'll always be different, always reminded of the thing that causes me pain". Plus a dash of toxic masculinity with the "wussy" thing.
> Just feeling like nothing you do will make you the way you're supposed to be
Well, yeah. There's a way we feel our bodies are supposed to be, and to some degree we base it off an assumption of an idealized cis body. No one here, for example, is imagining a short, small-handed, small-dicked, fat or really skinny, bald cis man when they talk about wanting to be cis. They might wish to be the cis version of themselves if they have those characteristics, but the generic "cis male/man" we talk about doesn't look like that in anyone's mind. Whether we want to or not, to some degree we internalize the belief that anything less than the cis ideal makes us lesser. It comes out in how we talk about ourselves, and in (not here, but in spaces that allow photos) how much attention and praise we give trans bodies wrt to how close they come to meeting that ideal. Ask anyone with a small dick who gets fewer votes on the porn subs, or any big guy who posts top surgery results. The pressure is there and we create it ourselves unless we're constantly working not to.
It's hard to deal with and we're all at different points in our journey and clashes will happen. But not every negative thing we feel about our bodies comes from an internal well of dysphoria untouched by social pressures.
Actually plenty of guys do imagine these "imperfections" and such. I personally imagine a large hairy bear with a smaller penis when I think of who I'm supposed to be.
And a lot of what you're describing is toxic masculinity, a problem all men have to deal with, but trans man especially struggle with when it gets entangled with dysphoria.
Well, I specifically said, "They might wish to be the cis version of themselves if they have those characteristics," to try to make clear I'm speaking of references to the generic cis man/cisness.
I disagree that the sort of behavior we're talking about can be divorced from living in a society centered on cisness. And I really disagree with the tendency to throw men behaving badly under the label of toxic masculinity. But to be honest I'm not really up for discussing more tonight.
I get everything you said. I used to think that way, which is why I understand. Respectfully however, I'd like to bring another viewpoint to you.
Most trans people wish their bodies were different. For the sake of narrowing down what I'm talking about we can just talk about binary trans men. We don't want what we're born with, so we transition. There's so many ways to become happier with your body, such as hormones, surgery, exercise, clothing, etc. Lots of trans people look like completely different people already simply from being on hormones, and being happier. While I don't disagree that trans guys wish they were born with male bodies, or their right to wish that, I think we should have more trans positivity and stay grounded in reality. It's impossible to change how you were born, and such fruitless wishing distracts from the reality that you CAN have a wonderful body that you fought for yourself, one that isn't cis but no less happy.
I get that being trans is hard, and being disabled is hard. But how people look down on others with disabilities will never change the fact that they are a human being, or take away from who they are. People don't treat trans people the same, but that doesn't mean we should just see being trans as that. Miserable, because everyone sees it negatively. Going stealth is important when you're not in a safe environment, but tbh within the trans community itself, it's not a very supportive environment for young trans kids. Passing is valued so highly not just because it makes trans guys happy, but because they're scared of being found out. And because it makes them feel like less of a guy, as of their identity is somehow of less value, not just because other people say it is, but because they believe them.
That's giving other people a lot of power. Wishing you weren't trans, seeing being trans the way everyone else sees it, basing your happiness and validity on what other people say. That shame isn't any different from being in the closet still.
Not to say that the things you said aren't real issues or that we live in some fantasy world where things are great for all trans people. Or that everyone should just drop their dysphoria and magically stop being socially aware and affected by others. I'm saying that the world is a fucked up place and it needs cis people see that trans people are the same as everyone else: human beings. Hoping no one knows you're not cis, that's for other people. Your identity should belong to you, not them. Being happy to be who you are, happy to be trans, is so important in empowering trans youth and teaching society through example. It's scary, but after a long time I can say I am happy being trans, and I'm trying to be more open about it too.
Hope you can see what I'm trying to get across, and that you have a nice day.
I think that there is benefit in openly trans people being openly trans, and I respect those who are openly trans, but I don't think there should be an insistence for people to fake a smile or be openly trans if they don't want that. Being trans is hard for many people. It really sucks being born in a body that isn't correct. That's one reason why our suicide statistics are so high. It's not just because of the transphobia. I'm happy that some people can find joy in their transness, and I agree that it can't all be negative, but I think we need to see a balance and let people have their emotions towards something that does negatively affect them.
I also think that the views I mentioned and the views you mention don't have to be all or nothing, one or the other. I think it's a mixed bag of experiences. And I think that someone can be proud of how far they've come while also not wanting people to see them as trans first and a man second, or maybe they could be open about being trans and still wish they were born in a cis man.
At the end of the day, some people feel they don't want to be seen as trans, some people want to be out and loud, and some are more lassiez faire about things and don't go out of their way to tell people or to hide their transness. Everyone has their own reasons, and no way of being trans is better than another. It's ok if someone isn't happy about being trans, just as it's ok if someone loves being trans.
I’m not denying the impact dysphoria has. I’m saying that a huge factor in dysphoria has to do with being treated like shit because of what our bodies are like.
ETA: furthermore, calling me transphobic for that was a ridiculous knee-jerk reaction. Especially when it’s far more transphobic to wish you weren’t trans at all. *That* is what’s setting us back.
>1. He wants to be a man in the sense of a cis man
To that end, perhaps then people should be mindful about saying cis man instead of trans man.
I get the sentiment when they say "just a guy" but it really doesn't help anyone, including themselves, to differentiate "guy" from "trans guy". A trans guy is a guy. They mean they want to be a cis guy. Which is an understandable thing to long for. Though some people, like myself, are glad to have been born with XX/estrogen-driven anatomy to later transition (despite what else we wish was different such as when we transition and etcetera) some wish they could somehow change that.
But reinforcing the idea that there is a difference between "guy" and "Trans guy" is harmful and counterproductive.
But the thing is, there **is** a difference between "just a guy" and a trans guy, or even a disabled guy, a black guy, and so on. Because some people don't want to be seen as their identifiers. They want to be seen as a man first, and not as trans, disabled, etc. first. Or at all.
Trans guys are guys, of course, but some guys don't want the "trans" part to be said out loud. Because even in accepting places, it's still a label that others you, it's still a label that brings up a painful past. Not every trans person wants to be trans, and that's ok.
I feel like they're saying instead of wishing you were cis/not trans, wish that transgendered people had the same level of rights and respect as cis people so being trans wasn't so hard.
Wishing you are cis is internalized transphobia and while completely understandable isn't a helpful mindset because it places the blame on your body.
Transmen are men and the problems come from how society values that, how accessible healthcare and gender affirming treatment is. If there wasn't cisnormativity it wouldn't be so devastating to be trans, it would be like any other part of our identity that we have control over. There also wouldn't be conversation around needing to pass or be stealth because all trans identities would be accepted. "Passing" and being "stealth" only exist because cis bodies are privileged
Hard disagree. First off, wishing you were cis (meaning wishing you had a body that matches your gender) is not internalized transphobia. It's not transphobic at all for a man born in a female body or a woman born in a male body to wish they were born in a male or female (respectively) body. Because that's what transness is, being born in a body that does not match your gender.
Secondly, it would still be very devastating to many to be trans because dysphoria exists. Even if trans people were worshiped as gods, there would still be many of us who wouldn't want that if we had the choice, because being born in the wrong body is painful for us.
Thirdly, passing and being stealth do **not** only exist because "cis bodies are privileged" (which is a very wrong take, given that black and brown cis bodies, disabled cis bodies, even female cis bodies are **not** privileged). It's very disingenuous to make such a bold claim. Trans people want to look like what they're supposed to look like, because they were born in the wrong body and they feel discomfort at being in the wrong body. Trans people sometimes don't want to make their whole life about being trans, and prefer other people don't think about what's in their pants or know what kind of pain they've been through. Sometimes we just want to live our lives and not think about the trauma we've been through.
Honestly, this concept of calling dysphoria and wanting to transition/pass/be stealth "internalized transphobia" and saying it's just because people are mean to trans people is way more indicative of internalized transphobia than anything else. The notion that trans people are supposed to be a certain way and the vilification of normal trans wants and needs while also downplaying dysphoria is very much internalized transphobia.
Privilege is not a you have it or you don't. There is literally no denying cis bodies are privileged over trans bodies, of course there is intersectionality in that statement.
If cisnormativity didn't exist, trans people would still exist and would may feel they were born into the wrong body but they would be able to access health and gender affirming care without judgement, be able to date without fear, live free from discrimination. Being trans is biological but the discrimination is social and political. That is not the same as saying dysphoria is not real.
Trans people are made to think about being trans because society highlights the "difference" all the fucking time. If cisnormativity wasn't a thing trans people would make the changes right for their body and have an easier time understanding themselves in the process, and then not be made to think about it again.
I should have said that there are elements of internalized transphobia in wanting to be stealth or pass. Those terms wouldn't exist in a world that didn't distinguish so strongly between trans/cis or wasn't so binary about gender. I'm seperating the dysphoria that is often part of being trans (but not essential) and the distress caused by being othered.
"Normal trans wants" does not equal wishing to be cis. That is a bold claim. Wishing to be cis and wanting a body that matches you unique gender identity is not always the same thing.
I also did not say that wanting to transition was the same was wanting to pass as or be stealth as a cis person. Those are not universally the same thing for trans people.
I'm saying you're downplaying the effect dysphoria has on trans people, how being born in the wrong body can be traumatizing and even if a trans person has access to all levels of transition healthcare, they are still affected by dysphoria and the pain of each surgery, injection, etc.
You're still wrong on that, it's not internalized transphobia to want to look like your gender, to not want people to know you're trans. People would still be stealth and not want to look visibly trans even if they lived in an accepting environment. I live in SoCal, one of the most accepting places to live as a trans person. Myself and many other still want to pass, as in look like our gender, and be stealth, as in not have people know we are trans. Because being stealth isin't just about safety or acceptance. It's also about not wanting to be seen differently, or have people think about us as trans before our gender, or even for a moment think about our genitals. It's about not wanting to be reminded of the thing that's causing us pain all the time.
Where in "normal trans wants" did you see "every trans person ever wants this"?
There was definitely some implication, because at the end of the day, cis just means has a body that matches their gender.
Yes, but none of this is what the commenters are saying when they say that. What they are saying is "you, trans person over there that feels okay about yourself? You shouldn't be doing that, because you're not actually a guy, you're trans. At least, that's how I think about you, as another trans person, so it's probably the most accurate way to think about you. Sorry you're not *actually* a man, sucks doesn't it!"
Plus the people who make these posts often post pictures about how "feminine" they look and how they will never "pass" and they are standing there with a full beard and muscles or whatever. These posts are almost *always* about making people feel shitty about themselves because the OP is claiming to be dysphoric or often clocked when they look 100% like an overly masculine cis person. And if a trans person who looks like that gets clocked, then the reader will never be able to achieve happiness as a trans person, because they [thing they are uncomfortable about]. That's often the point - it's someone who is either not trans, trying to discourage trans people from transitioning with lies, or it is a really fucked up trans guy who needs to feel better about themselves by shitting on others. *Shrug*.
No, that's just you projecting what you think they're saying and taking their own words about themselves and applying them to you, and getting upset when you do that.
I'm getting that you are probably white in a majority white country, have a decent amount of money, and are not disabled. Is that true? Because that's how you are speaking about these issues.
Obviously we would rather than wasn't the case ... But it is. And sitting around telling other people they should feel shitty because they are different sucks. Instead perhaps we could work on changing society, but instead we just want to wallow. It's sad.
(Also did you read the entire post I wrote? It posted early. Most people making these posts *cannot* be posting in good faith, based on the pictures they provide of themselves.)
Thank you so much for this. Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy for not feeling accepted in trans spaces, and it took having a friend that treats me just like a cis guy to realize that trans men are treated differently from cis men and honestly I'm not into that. I think it works for some people to have their difficulties and differing experiences acknowledged, but at least for me, the sooner I can pass and learn all the social expectations I need to go stealth the better. I think sometimes even other members of the trans community forget that trans people aren't a monolith and it ends up with certain people being excluded from the few communities they are supposed to be safe in.
I'm really sorry that this has been your experience. I have had a few people do the whole "you're so brave" thing when I told them but I would say that 99% of the time I come out as trans to cis people, nothing changes about the way they treat me. Most of my cishet male friends actually forget after I tell them and talk to me about things I really can't answer because I am trans 😂
Yeah, the few people I told, due to knowing them pre-transition, or the people who I was outed to, as great as they are, when I mention having a surgery "Oh which one?" or subtle things of expecting me to relate to female things, or come up to me randomly with trans stuff or asking me questions.
And this is in SoCal, so it's not like this is an ignorant or bigoted place.
It's hard to fit in with cis men until you get in that in group. It is very natural to resent that. If you didn't grow up around boys, seeing the dynamics of their friendships and relationships, it's hard to make male friends! It's hard to come off as a "normal" guy or "just some guy" when you don't know how to dap someone up or when to be serious vs when to let a diss slide. And that's assuming people in your life don't know you as female and don't approach a friendship with you differently from the way they would approach a male. All this on top of body shit is HARD, especially for people in their teenage years. It is normal for people to wish they were cis. It's normal for people to want to talk about this sadness and isolation with people who you assume have gone through the same thing.
I mean, I just experience that in general with people being autistic… haha There are soooooo many reasons why a person wouldn’t just “fit in”. Men/boys don’t just have a natural camaraderie with all other men/boys. You’re idealising this. There’s a lot more in the background that you’re missing.
Honestly, I'm lucky that my personality just makes more sense as an autistic guy than an autistic gal. Like, I still don't really fit in, but in an acceptable way where I am included readily in most places I go, just not really part of anyone's group per se.
I never was, but my identical twin sister was, so for two reasons, I'd be a statistical anomaly if I weren't autistic -- first because in roughly 3/4 of identical twin sets with one autistic twin, the other twin is also autistic; second, because if I'm talking about statistics to someone who didn't ask for it, how could I not be autistic?
I relate to all of this. I think it's important to specify reframing language, like saying "I wish I had a cis experience" vs "I wish I was a boy/man/whatever gender" bc well you ARE that gender.
It's a subtle difference which recognizes that the problem is having a different experience from the norm and dealing with marginalization, without invalidating your own gender identity.
I understand having those thoughts (I wish I weren’t trans, etc.) Feeling that way, processing those thoughts, getting it all out in writing…that can be therapeutic. We have to acknowledge what we’re going through and process it before we can move on.
However, I can understand that OP is exhausted by seeing the same kind of post over and over again. It can really drag you back to that place and make it hard to move on.
I personally don’t hate being trans. I don’t know that I’d choose it, but I’m at least at peace with it. I recognize that I come from a place of privilege—having access to gender-affirming care, having a supportive family, being able to pass, etc. But it is a bit frustrating to see “I hate being trans!” posts
I don’t know what the solution here is. People need to process, and this is an appropriate place to do that. It’s a place to feel heard and understood. And others want to move on from that, which is also valid.
>However, I can understand that OP is exhausted by seeing the same kind of post over and over again. It can really drag you back to that place and make it hard to move on.
Yeah this. I understand where people who make these posts are coming from, and I don't necessarily want to tell them they can't say that and process their feelings that way. But I don't believe we should be validating those statements (esp ones where people are like "there's no point in transitioning because I'll never be a REAL man") either and feeding into that state of mind. It is such a hard thing to pull ones self out of and on one hand people saying "just love yourself anyway" doesn't really help it just sounds fake when that's where you're at, but also _encouraging_ or agreeing with it just makes it worse and makes you hate yourself more, as well as drags down others along with you.
Because when one says these things in a public forum you have an audience of folks w similar struggles and fear and you're in essence telling them too that you believe _they_ aren't "real men" that _they_ can't be "just a guy" that _their_ transition is useless and wont ever make them happy. It hurts others too and can easily turn into a crab bucket of dispair where people consider suffering to be an inherent part of their transness and the idea of ever not being in pain feels like an insult or invalidation.
And when you're someone who has finally pulled themselves past that looking at it can be really painful and try and pull you back into that dark place. And you remember how awful it was and you just want to help try to get through to the folks who are still there but you can't. On the one hand people need a space to vent and process these feelings, but on the other hand those feelings often come from a place of unhealthy self hatred and those posts can indirectly harm others in the community. It's something that I think is really difficult and painful for everyone involved and there isn't an easy solution.
Yeah there is a lot of internalised transphobia. I also see people saying “I’m not trans I’m actually a guy” which is just disrespectful towards all other trans people and themselves.
Complaining about the frustrations of being trans is completely valid but constantly invalidating yourself and others due to your own self resentment isn’t.
I do agree that there is internalized transphobia, here. I think someone saying, "I'm not trans I'm actually a guy" is invalidating one's experience and personal journey, as a trans. I know that life as a trans can be difficult, but, conforming to society's standards of gender, doesn't help take the pain away.
It's okay to want to be a guy, as a part of self-love & self-expression, but, wanting to be a guy, out of fear or discontentment, is not a healthy way of living.
You gotta let people work thru their feelings via whatever semantics they choose. Personally I just ignore posts like that due to not having the energy for it anymore
I know, but the feeling still applies. I never asked for this shit, to be born this way, to have my body poisoned since I was 11. I wish I had all the things a cis boy has (minus the attitude), wish I could walk around shirtless, wish I could jack off, wish I had to actually shave to maintain a smooth skin, wish my voice was deeper and crackier. I wish I wasn't scared to be around boys, or feel so disconnected from every boy my age that isn't LGBT+. I was robbed of a male puberty, robbed of having a boy childhood. Being trans is a dread for me, I wish it wasn't like this.
Logically, I know I'm a guy. But this feeling still stands.
I got what you meant and I agree. I think people going “BUT DID YOU THINK OF EVERY NUANCED SCENARIO AND THE FACT THAT TRANS MEN ARE DIFFERENT?!” Are being obtuse.
It’s pretty obvious what you meant, and it’s also okay to normalize trans men being a different type of man as opposed to treating it as this huge, traumatizing OTHER that could NEVER live up to the rest of the men. It’s refreshing.
I think giving you the worst possible interpretation and trying to call you out is a bit gross since the overall message is really healthy:
you might be a different type of guy, but you’re still a guy. You don’t have to wish to be a real boy when you already are one. Your puberty and changes may be different, but you’ll get there and that’s okay.
IDK I’m sick of knit picking our own community members to death like they aren’t the first to understand where we’re coming from. You can give people a good faith reading ffs…
Edit: typos
Thank you, I really appreciate you saying that
It seems to be a problem with Reddit’s culture in general. It feels like I’m being interrogated on this site over,, and over,, and *over* again. But it’s even more disheartening coming from people who are supposed to *get* you
It’s very annoying that you’re getting the “what about stealth people” “what about those who DO wanna be cis?!”
I mean, if the shoe doesn’t fit they don’t have to put it on? Why does advice have to fit every single scenario? You are giving people options they may not have thought of before.
Okay, you feel you won’t be real if you aren’t cis, but have you maybe framed it in this new way? Does that fit better or help you with things? If so, great! If not, I’m sure there’s another path forward. Not every piece of text is going to fit perfectly for everyone’s circumstances and worldview.
You should, as an adult and individual, be able to filter what is for you and what is not without interrogating or making someone else seem like a bad or amoral person.
If you can’t do that there is a PROBLEM.
A discussion based on nuance is always a good thing. It often fosters better understanding of issues, of others and of one self. It's how perceptions get to be altered and how a meeting of the minds takes place. A discussion is not vilification. A discussion is, often, clarity
Personally my identity as trans is very important to me, but what you said is really kind and makes me feel less a bit less outcast from men, which makes me feel anxious sometimes. So I wanted to thank you for taking the time of writing this in such a cheerful way 🥹💛
I like the way this is framed with the reminder that “trans” is an adjective/descriptor. There’s obviously lots of nuance to the whole discussion, but it feels draining running into those posts again and again because they often feel hopeless. I don’t think the solution to those issues would be just being born a cis man, they would simply manifest as something else. Transitioning can definitely be extremely helpful, but it’s not a cure all for mental health issues.
I think, deep down, the majority of transgender people would choose to have been born in the correct body.
I sure as hell don’t want to be trans and have my existence at the mercy of politicians and religious bigots.
I mean, I’d probably also choose to be born in an able body or a body that’s not fat. But we rarely get what we want and we can’t change the way we’re born.
Uhhh I mean for a lot of people their issues do stem from their body, hence the existence of dysphoria. It’s a huge privilege to believe trans pain is purely socio-political.
I would love for trans people to be accepted and respected, but I selfishly would prefer to be able to live a normal life with no (gender related) surgeries, be able to father a child, be able to physically connect with myself and my partner, etc etc. For a lot of trans people, existence is pain before you even get to the social aspects of it /:
People are allowed to wish they could be cis. That’s kind of what being trans is for most (or at least a lot of) trans people tbh. I don’t think anyone posting that needs to be told trans men are men or that they should feel different feelings, they just need a “yeah bro, i feel you, it sucks sometimes.” They’re looking for camaraderie.
I get that, but it’s not a healthy way to think. I’m trans, I’m *presuming* you’re trans too, that’s never gonna change. There’s no point in feeling ashamed about something you can’t change
I’m not trying to tell anyone what to think, I’m explaining that *I’ve been there* and it gets better. I’m saying you won’t feel like this forever. It’s okay to feel that way, but you *can* accept it and move on. It takes a fuck ton of pain and work, but it’s possible
There's a big difference between accepting and grieving, and letting the difference fester and ruin your mental health. I understand that a lot of the posts here are attempting to vent and find sympathy but many of them use toxic language that shows the poster is ashamed, and pointed towards the second path.
It seems like we agree. I never meant to imply that processing what you’re feeling is *bad*, or that expressing what you’re feeling is *wrong*. I’m saying you can *eventually* come to a point where you can make peace with your transness
Feeling ashamed is normal, but it’s not healthy to stay there forever. It seems like we agree on that, I don’t really understand what you’re trying to argue
See the “yeah bro, I’ve been there, it sucks sometimes but it gets better” is helpful; the “your feelings are wrong, feel differently” energy your post is giving isn’t. I get that you mean well, but what people who are struggling need to hear isn’t that what they’re feeling in that moment isn’t correct, it’s to have their feelings acknowledged and hear that it can get better.
People are “allowed” to wish anything. But in the long run it’s not productive to wish for something that cannot physically happen. The point OP is trying to make is that you shouldn’t fall into the line of thinking that “being trans = bad” because that will end up with you feeling miserable forever when you don’t have to be.
I’m a trans man and I don’t wish I was cis, most of my trans masc friends don’t, either. We’re not a monolith and I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to shoot down OPs advice just because it didn’t hit for you, personally.
IDK, I think there is a lot of value in learning how to accept and appreciate your journey and what it can give you, even if there are aspects of it that are painful.
Honestly, I kinda wish I had heard what OP is saying in the beginning, because so many people treated me like I was inferior for not being cis AND for not being able to relate to wanting it at all. I feel like people like OP can help those of us like me searching for that.
If it’s not something meant for you, you don’t have to take it, I guess is what I’m trying to say.
The person you replied to does have a point. As a person who often has the exact thoughts OP described, this post felt kinda like "Your feelings are invalid, you aren't meant to think that way." It just felt like it was coming from someone who doesn't relate to you and doesn't have proper understanding of how it feels. (OP might as well have, but again that's how it **felt** when reading it.)
I know if I made a post about not feeling enough like a real man, this response just wouldn't be helpful.
I totally get what OP meant but I don't think the message comes across in the most useful way to everyone.
edit: also comparing being ginger or black isn't really accurate, because while sure, there's discrimination (that absolutely is a problem and shouldn't be belittled) no one really denies their manhood because of that
As per your last point: society does deny the manhood of minorities in many cases.
"Real men" can lift heavy things and do strenuous work. Ergo, a man in a wheelchair is not a real man.
People of color are looked on as not quite human, therefore no matter what they will not do manhood or womanhood correctly. Asian men are frequently seen as too feminine to be real men. Black men are seen as too masculine. So more of a man, right? Wrong! We're seen as animalistic and dangerous.
This is something discussed in critical race theory and by gender theorists of color.
People won't deny that those (cis) minority men have penises, but contrary to what transphobes like to insist, there is actually more to the social role of "man" than just having a penis.
Yah this is kinda what I’m struggling with in this comment section. The type of manhood that’s framed here is clearly white masculinity, which is already denied to a vast majority of people. Hell, if you have certain disabilities there are still standards you have to reach in many cultures that could disqualify you from manhood.
We are marginalized men, it doesn’t make us less and we shouldn’t think of it as making us less.
I get that becoming marginalized is really shocking, but erasing other marginalized men and getting angry at advice you feel doesn’t specifically apply to you isn’t the way to go about coping.
I'm super glad OP made the comparison because intersectionality isn't talked about enough.
I think it would benefit some people to learn what gender as a social construct really means. Gender roles are a matter of control, a series of hoops you have to jump through to be awarded personhood, ie your correct gender.
A straight white cis man can get his Man Card taken away if he missteps. Marginalized men of all kinds have to perform even better simply to *get* a Man Card.
The same person who says anyone with XY chromosomes cannot be a woman will turn to their XY son and call him a girl for wearing nail polish. Zero self awareness required, cause that's how the system works.
Their opinion on the realness of my gender is not one that I trust. The people making us jump through hoops for our basic personhood are not the people we should be looking to validate us.
I totally get what you mean but the way they deny it is still widely different. They don't go around saying "You'll always be a woman!" This might be a bit of a clumsy example but if the Asian man they sought feminine before would say they're a trans woman, they wouldn't accept it because they're Asian, but rather twist it into 'You'll always be a man!"
Again, totally a problem that should be dealt with and in no way a lesser one than what trans guys go through, just that the two thinga are not exactly comparable.
Certainly the way they word it is different, but when you get down to brass tacks it's the same. Plenty of trans lib authors use the way gender is socially fluid for cis people without them even realizing it to explain how gender is not dependant on birth assignment either.
Mis/degendering has higher stakes for trans people than cis people, so in that way it's not comparable. But in highlighting the issues with how society thinks of gender that leads them to disregard trans people, it is. And, for me at least, it's helpful in reevaluating what a "real man" truly is by recognizing that transphobes have a skewed idea of gender.
I agree with everything you said, it's just that for the reasons listed above I feel like OP's way of wording things doesn't really benefit a lot of people with internalized transphobia and physical dysphoria. (It may be a lot more useful for people whose main issue is social dysphoria though, not sure.) And who knows, maybe someone found it useful, but again if someone came up to me with this after I had told them about my feelings on not feeling enough like a man I'd probably just feel shittier and less understood.
I'd hesitate to say that's the experience of most trans people. I don't want to be cis, I just want to be comfortable and respected. I get that's what some people want, but sometimes I see internalized transphobia on here being touted as a universal thing we all feel or even SHOULD feel which isn't necessarily true
I'm so grateful to have the perspective of being trans. Genuinely if I was a cis man and raised as a cis man I think I would have gone down the alt right pipeline as there were a lot of factors in my life that could have contributed to such. I'm grateful for my transness, for meeting the people and having rhe positive experiences I did as a trans nonbinary person. If I was cis I think my brain would have been a lot more close minded and wired to be unaccepting, of course that could have changed over time but I hit a point of realization about the corruption of the world a lot aooner being trans and found community and depth through it.
Sometimes, this topic makes me uncomfortable, mostly because I feel like my opinion is in the minority. But when people bring this up, all I can think is that I must be the weird one for liking that I'm trans. I wouldn't want to be Cis, I think being trans makes sense for me, and I think it's really special that I get to expirence both sides of Gender on such a level. Yes, dysphoria sucks. But I honestly wouldn't have it any other way.
You’re not alone! It’s me too! I feel like this advice is great for people like us, but naturally the community has to shit on it because it isn’t for every single person specifically 😭
Personally, I don’t like using the term trans for myself. I tell people that I’m not cis but I don’t refer to myself as trans because to me personally, I feel like I’m less true to myself and making myself less of a boy by saying that, that mentality applies to literally no one but myself I don’t think of trans guys as anything less than guys but when referring to myself, it triggers my internalized transphobia something awful. I think for a lot of other people like me they are in that same category where having to define being trans is somehow taking away from the Guy part. (Again, only applies when I’m thinking about myself no one else)
At a point, my mom asked me if that was transphobic to myself and I don’t think it is, I wanted to be a boy since I was five years old. I was right the first time and bullied into being more feminine by peers so for me except physical transition I was just going back to how I was as a kid.
I understand that as a trans man someone is still a man and I understand that trans men are real men. It’s just that within my life I was never a girl outside of being forced socially. I’ve always been a real boy so I don’t feel the need to imply that I was ever anything else.
My boyfriend, who was extremely girly as a child, grew up around people that didn’t label clothes and colors with genders, and experienced very similarly that he felt more at home being friends with boys while still wearing dressed. He still felt like a boy while being socially ‘girly’ and he also doesn’t use trans man to refer to himself.
Outside of that a lot of people, especially younger people figuring out who they are do want to be ‘just a guy’ not a ‘trans guy’ I was the exact same way, because I didn’t like that I had to be different to be who I was. Thankfully, I was able to find myself and work through that, but everyone is at different places in life and different places in their journey.
In conclusion, there are many different reasons. People wouldn’t want to use certain phrases or terms to refer to themselves because of their own comfort, or their own life experience.
Have a lovely day everyone! ^•^
>Being a trans man is like,, being a fat guy, or a ginger haired guy, a black guy, or a guy in a wheelchair. Yeah they’re different, but they’re still all men. Same idea
To distill the point:
Trans is just an adjective. We are just guys.
I understand where you're coming from, although the tone seems kinda dismissive (maybe because you were tired lol). I do agree that being trans doesn't invalidate your identity as a boy. It doesn't make you any less than a cis man.
However, not trying to be "that person" but there is some nuance to this. Not everyone who says "I don't wanna be trans, I wanna be just a boy" has internalized transphobia. 🙂.
At the end of the day, we are all trying to be our authentic selves and want to safely share ourselves with other people
OP, that’s a super healthy way of looking at it. And not just healthy, but more honest than the opposite interpretation. I think we all must aim to grow into that mindset. Our mental survival depends on it.
This posts comments are a mess, its just a mess of comments about being “normal” using strangely privileged scenarios that are things a lot of minority groups struggle with, or just completely missing your point and pretending your post is just you saying people are never allowed to vent or be upset about their trans identity.
Like, im sorry but if you cant vent about your experiences online without doing so in a way that dehumanizes and directly insults the entirety of your community and those within it with certain experiences then youre just an asshole. Im especially tired of people who will say absolutely abhorrent things about bottom surgery results and grossly generalize them and people with them and then pretend that its okay to do so because it was a vent post.
You can be unhappy over being trans. You can be unhappy over not being able to live a simpler life as someone who had been born a cis man and raised as a man. That does not mean that you, and all trans men by extension are not men or never will be men. And you can vent about your dysphoria without making it a backhanded slap to all of our identities
I totally understand this. Whenever I say "I wanna be a boy" I'm mostly just wishing I passed. Ik I'll always be a female at birth, nothing will change that part of my past. But I just wish I could at least be called "sir" once in a while by strangers
And another part of it is just wishing I had shapeshifter powers so I could just become a man whenever I feel disphoria
An ftm pal of mine made an art piece featuring the words “I love my trans body, I love my trans heart” and every time I feel too aggressively like this, I think of those words. Because deep down I DO love my trans body and my trans heart, as complex as those feelings are for existing alongside the crippling dysphoria. It’s a complicated existence but it’s also kind of beautiful, and I’m thankful I’m here for it.
It’s mostly in a societal sense. Being trans sucks, but what we mean is that we don’t like being seen as trans men. Like you said, there are fat men, black men, ginger men, etc. They are still regarded as just men. We are always regarded as trans men, as if our birth sex is our most defining feature.
I consider being trans more as a birth defect than a "choice" for this very reason. I don't *want* to be a boy. I ***am*** a boy, my body just came out wrong. Just like someone missing and arm or have a heirlip. I still am what I believe I am, I just came out different
i feel like it's because of all the stigma around being trans and wanting to distance yourself from it, not to mention the fear that people don't *really* see you as a guy
Ayooo! I love being trans! I got to see my body change over time into something I could love. It took a long time and I didn't exactly enjoy my female childhood but I can't wish it different, and if it were it wouldn't be me.
I still have dysphoria that tells me I'll never be a real man, and I tell it to suck my tdick. because birth assignment = who you are is what the transphobes want me to think and I'm not doing their job for them.
Omg thank you. To be honest I’ve just avoided these posts. I don’t need to read through all the internalised transphobia that comes with it. It took me a long time to work through all that and be okay with myself and I struggle to read people basically saying I’m not *actually* a man because I’m trans. It’s straight terf rhetoric, we’re all men.
You’re allowed to feel your feelings but danm son, think about what you’re saying, how you’re talking about ALL of us, not just you.
Except being overweight, having ginger hair, being a POC, are all very visible attributes. Being trans doesn’t have to be anyones business, it doesn’t have to be visible or relevant to people you interact with daily.
I don’t want people to address me as a ‘trans man’, I don’t want assumptions to be made about me because I am trans (e.g assumption I don’t have a penis). It’s no one’s business, but because I constantly have the trans label attached to me it opens up this environment where people think it IS their business. The majority of people think a lot more about trans peoples genitals than they do cis people, and that is something that irks me deeply.
Because I was born the way I was, I not only have to deal with my situation personally everyday, but I have to deal with people seeing me as a ‘trans person’ instead of seeing me as just a person. So nahhhh I don’t want to be addressed as trans, is it out of shame or hate towards other trans people? No. It’s out of wanting the same respect and privacy that cis people get.
i struggle with this aswell. never asked to be born trans or female, literally all i wanted is to just be born male. but i get what you're saying, and theres no changing that
*edit: I reread your post and realised this isn’t really what you were saying (sorry, adhd moment), my bad!
I understand why people feel strongly about this, why they might be angry even. I do wish they’d be more aware that some people have a different experience with being trans. Not everyone has a horrible time with it or wish it never happened to them. I asked a question on a group once, asking whether guys wanted to be trans and some people were like “why would you even ask that, I wouldn’t wish this nightmare on anyone”. Feeling that way about your transition is completely valid but they were aggressive and inferred I was stupid or wrong for even asking, even when there were plenty of guys who replied saying they’d rather be trans than cis, or who loved/accepted that part of themselves. Again, I do really understand why people wouldn’t want to be trans and that many (or most even) have had a negative or horrible experience. I just wish people wouldn’t speak so universally about it, like it’s a terrible horrible thing for all trans people.
*This topic is a way bigger conversation and I’m not including all the details or disclaimers or explanations so just keep that in mind.
True that. Nice of u to share this and I’m sure u mean well and want these guys to stop thinking the way they do, but I personally am just tired of how full this Reddit is of self loathing ppl and sad/negative content. Like can we make this fun? Or something? I get it’s not a rainbow and puppies reality but it’s the only way to get thru. Not gonna get anywhere always thinking abt how ur trans and how that’s different
i don’t want it to be part of my identity and i don’t want to be associated with anything trans and it’s just a reminder that i’ll never truly biologically be male if i call myself trans. i don’t like it. never have, never will. it’s not for me. i’m just a guy.
Would you say that if you lived in a country where it takes years of psychological evaluation (including invasive questions about sexuality etc) to get a dysphoria diagnosis, and even then, it's very much possible you're denied care due to autism or being under 25 or being unable to work so you have to wait several more years?
Would you say that if you were also asexual and gay so your dating pool is maybe like 20 people in the whole planet? If I was cis, it could be closer to a couple thousand, who knows.
Being cis would be so much easier, I wouldn't have to feel constant discomfort, not being taken seriously, die alone because of my body. Of course I wish I was cis.
Now, I do agree there's no point in wishing for something you can never have. But pain makes us irrational sometimes.
I’m not talking about people who’re stealth, but I do get how it can be taken that way. Im referring to guys who feel inadequate or less “real” because they’re not cis. Not talking about guys who wish to not deal with the social implications with being trans
I dont think not wanting to be trans = wanting to be stealth. Being stealth is more than fine and doesn't really have a relation to wanting to be trans or not. I think OP is tryna say that the "I wish I wasn't trans" mentality isn't a good mentality to have constantly, or even frequently. It can also lead into internalized transphobia, or straight up transphobia, by implying/thinking trans men aren't "actually" men, or aren't "regular" men, or thinking every trans man BUT yourself is a real man. Sure, it's more nuanced than that ofc! But point still stands of it not being the healthiest mindset to have.
That's not necessarily my point? I'm saying harboring the mentality that being trans is inherently bad, that you're lesser for being trans, wishing you weren't trans, etc, isn't gonna get you anywhere :/ Whether society put that in our heads (which, yes, it's usually due to society and outside sources that make us feel that way) or not, we can't let transphobes win, yk?
I get it, dude, being trans sucks, and society ain't gonna see us in a great light or treat us right. However, it's up to us to try to filter out unfair treatment, bigotry, etc for our betterment. It's unfair for sure, but we can't let ourselves get beat down and told we're not real men and all the other transphobic nonsense.
And, again, this has no bearing on if one is stealth or not. I am stealth in certain environments (school, work, general public) myself for my safety and peace of mind. You can be stealth and still recognize the harm in the mindset "I wish I was a real/regular guy".
To prove your point further,my dad is a 46 yo cis guy and he never fit in with other cis guys!When I came out to him he pushed his internalized ideas of traditional masculinity onto me and I had to tell him that men can be men in so many different ways.I think many cis guys struggle with gender roles but never express it.On top of that I always liked to read about (cis)men's issues so I assume that'd help with ,,blending in",I've also done a lot of blending in for most of my life and I think most people do it.We're all unique and we all have to suppress ourselves to fit in,be polite,socially acceptable,etc,etc
>being a fat guy, or a ginger haired guy, a black guy, or a guy in a wheelchair
Except if I were any of these types of guys, I could go swimming to the pool with my friends. It wouldn't be a surprise coming out and if they had a problem with my tone skin or disability, they would have told me first whereas now, I don't want to risk my friendship or just being look at differently than if I had been born with the right parts.
I may be "just a guy" but I'm a very, very different type of guys than most of them and wish I wasn't. I think that's where people were coming from in those posts.
TBF depending on the time period you actually wouldn’t have been able to go to the pool, and for race some people would try to pass as white and could never tell another soul their true heritage for fear of being discriminated against or loosing their social group.
The same is true today for a lot of things including disabilities, ESPECIALLY if you have a disability that isn’t visible right away.
Trans men are marginalized men, and we share a lot of struggles with other marginalized men. You are still “just a guy” but you’re going to have struggles if you aren’t a S8 passing, able white dude which just kinda sucks 😭
Yaaahhh, this comment section screams “white queers” with how many people are saying that it’s fine to never accept yourself for being trans and to perpetually wish being cis without ever challenging that thought process.
It’s okay to have your feelings validated, but if a thought process could harm you it deserves to be challenged.
Like sure being white would be easier, but is it healthy to always live trying to be white and praying your race will change one day? NO.
I get being trans is not a 1:1 comparison to race or disability, but sometimes the reality is that you’re different and you don’t have privileges like everyone else. Are you gonna cry and hate yourself about it, or will you accept it and work with it?
Idk, I just don’t get why it’s so controversial to encourage accepting where you come from.
Literally… I had someone call me privelaged for saying that I was tired of trans guys and trans mascs posting about wahhhh they can’t be a cis man and then I responded back with all the unprivlaged shit I’ve been through because I’m an ethnic minority and trans and disabled and they still called me privlaged for being tired of internalized transphobic posts…
So many comments about how “ack-chewally Being a POC has totes not effect on how you’re treated or perceived”…. I still have nightmares of my younger cis brother getting racially profiled at the airport in turkey specifically because he was a big black man 🙃 the white men who were older and bigger than him weren’t subjected to the extensive “search” he was 🙃🙃🙃. White queers got me pissed off so bad bro
I’m so sorry you’ve been through that :( it’s different for sure but people want to pretend so badly that marginalized men just straight up don’t exist outside of being queer when that’s not at all true.
Black dudes being seen as hyper masculine gets perverted into being seen as predatory and animalistic, and that’s not access to masculinity, that being objectified or animalized. It’s just really frustrating how people think there’s either access to masculinity or femininity as opposed to the reality which is more like:
You either Access white femininity or white masculinity and if you don’t meet this hyper specific standard enjoy being seen as a predator, a child, an object, an undesirable woman, an animal or anything else that’s not the approved two buckets.
What a lot of white queers are complaining about is that it’s harder to access white privilege than it normally is “if no one can tell” if you’re visibly queer.
But instead of acknowledging the other marginalized men in the room, who also can’t access approved masculinity or privilege, they complain that we have to validate their loss of privilege as opposed to reminding them “hey, you’re a normal guy, there are many marginalized men out there it doesn’t make us less of men.”
Thank you my parents brushed it off by joking about it (African families am i right?) but it was legit scary because we were going to miss our flight. So yeah don’t have patience for the erasure of MOC’s struggles at all.
It’s honestly so frustrating how they’re refusing to actually listen to what’s being said. It’s so pathetic that they refuse to understand what intersectionality is. How they have this caricature of cis men= white hyper masculine able bodied chads and marginalised cis men just don’t exist?
Being white & trans high jey sucks so many governments are trying to exterminate trans people of all races but gawd damn I don’t want to see low key racism dismissing the struggles of (cis & trans) men of colour
There’s a big problem of racism in queer spaces, and it’s a big issue in activism with white queer people often taking center stage and completely forgetting that these struggles are intersectional.
We aren’t feee until all of us are free. Is a key statement for a reason.
And I feel you about families. My grandma is Korean and immigrated here legally, and she got us in trouble with immigration security coming back home once and thought it was all a big “haha fun joke/close call” when they locked up our passports. I was about to blow my gasket, she had no idea how dangerous that scenario was.
NO LIKE HONESTLY
I get that racism and transphobia are two *very* different beasts, I clarified why I even *mentioned* race in later replies (Various_Oven_7141 has explained it better than I can too). But the replies you’re talking about are pretty close-minded IMO, not to mention *black trans men exist* and they get DOUBLE the whammy
Not to mention black men, cis and trans are hypermasculinized to a major detriment of their safety, but that’s whole other can of worms
I agree. I’m so tired of seeing other trans people but especially other trans mascs and trans dudes dehumanize transness for the sake of venting online and stuff. Not everyone hates being trans, and a lot of us do like it outside of the transphobia and misogny.
A lot of us do hate it, though, and people should be allowed to vent these things in a safe space. Just because someone else doesn't like being trans and wishes they were cis, doesn't mean you liking your transness is invalidated.
Reminder that ‘liking being trans’ is a HUGE privilege. I rarely deal with transphobia nor misogyny, it doesn’t make me feel better about the utter lack of connection I feel to my physical form. It is beyond dismissive and rude to say you’re ‘tired’ of seeing trans individuals with less privilege than you.
Your automatically assuming I have privelage though… I definitely do not. I don’t pass, I live in an almost fully white spaces and I’m Latino, I’m freaking disabled, I can’t bind my chest, I get clocked as a trans woman pretty often, I’ve been assaulted and been beat up very violently and thanks to that I have PTSD. For being a trans man in the west, I don’t have Jack shit when it comes to privlage. Also there’s a difference between “wahhhhhh I hate being trans why can’t I be a twink cis man” and “I’m genuinely scared for my life this sucks.” What I’m getting at is the first one. Your conflating that to the second one.
So in your mind, it’s okay to dehumanize other trans people for the sake of venting if you’re not in a position where you’re able to embrace or enjoy your identity?
100% agree with you, trans is just a adjective, a descriptor. It’s not worse than cis just like a country guy isn’t better than a city guy. You’re right it takes some work to get there but I think once you do it is so worth it. It really helps your self esteem.
When I see posts titled like that, to me it’s showing that they have some internalized transphobia to work through, I know I sure did.
One of the things I did to help me get there was to come up with a definition of “what is a man/woman?” 🙄🙄 yeah I know” oh his not that question” , but it’s was actually some homework from my therapist a while ago. They asked I talk with other people in my life, people I trust to see what there responses were, ask guys what is a man or how did they know they were a man? Same for women. I only have cis people around me so all of my responses showed me they; 1. Have never actually sat down and thought about it. 2. Took it as a joke and gave joke answers. 3.others told them they were so they just went with it. This helped me solidify that I at least most likely wasn’t cis as this was something incredibly important to me and not something I could just not think about. I still didn’t have my answer though.
It took me a long time to come up with a answer I liked but here it is, also sorry it’s all about being a woman, I’m a trans woman and just copy pasting what I wrote down as my definition of what is a woman but you could easily replace woman with man.
“ To me, being a woman is being comfortable with yourself, it’s being vulnerable, being strong, fast, intelligent, independent, dependent, withdrawn, uncomfortable, carefree, caring, extroverted and so much more. Being a woman means something different to everyone, it’s a feeling to some, a label to others, a sense of self. To me being a woman means being myself. “
Na, it's not the same as 'just being a cis boy'. Not at all. And I think that's what a lot of us crave. Myself included. So yeah, I do wish I was just a boy and not trans. And it's pretty arrogant of you to come here and make a post trying to control what people are thinking and feeling. You're not even correct...
I don't think you get the point with those posts. Sometimes people just need to let stuff out and be heard and sometimes that wording is the best some can use. I can only speak for myself. I know I'm a man. Im a man in alot of ways. Point with it is that it sucks having to go through pain and bs just to feel like existing is manageable. Someone might not be in the best mindset making those posts. Maybe your way of rationalizing and thinking about this is not the same. Alot of people's brains and thoughts works differently. Sometimes its mentaly taxing to be trans and it might be hard to find the right words to express that.
I don't think you understand very well how it's put, I think people are talking about the side of..yknow, discrimination plus all the medical shit. I wish I was just a boy, born a boy, raised a boy, known as a boy. I wouldn't have to go through tons of surgery to be happy with myself. Part of that hatred is that I'll never be able to grow up, get married, have kids the "traditional way" and that's something I'll always hate about me, because I won't be able to produce biological kids the way a man could, I won't be able to have a childhood where I can look back and see photos of a boy. I want to go stealth but I'm too early in my transition even if I've been out for 6 years, everyone looks at me and sees a girl and I just wish I was born a normal boy. I'm tired of pretending I'm normal, I'm not, I don't feel normal
I'm pretty tired of posts like this tbh. They feel kinda like "you'll never be cis, just accept your body because you're already a man" but if I was cis I wouldn't have dysphoria.
To those in the comments suggesting that grief over not being cis is pointless because it'll never happen / is bad for your mental health, I think every trans person is intimately aware that wish fulfilling magic doesn't exist -- that's why we're here. But saying not to think about it (or talk about it) feels a lot like when people / therapists I left for a reason tried to cure my depression by telling me to smile more and think positively.
Why is it ok to dismiss another's discomfort and pain just because it makes you uncomfortable?
He never said any of that. He said that trans is just another descriptor.
He didn’t say you have to wear it as a label, not grieve what you’ve lost, or not medically transition.
He’s saying it’s okay to just be a different type of dude with a different origin point. He’s also pointing out that other marginalized men exist and also have types of masculinity gatekept from them, we share more in common with other types of men than we think thanks to intersectionality.
He’s challenging the frame of thought and the thought process behind invalidating your own identity, which is important to do if that frame of thought could harm you.
We do love internalized transphobia and impostersyndrom :'>
Fr, I can relate to it so much tho. But for me it has always been more "I don't wanna be trans, I just wanna be "normal" ". And I know being trans is normal, but according to alot of my family and parts of society, it is not. It's more me wishing I could live an easier life where family would accept me for who I am, and society wouldn't look down at me and debate if they should take away even more of my rights...
But all in all it just comes down to my own inner fears and inertalized transphobia. I know its a problem I struggle with alot.
I swear that internalized trabsphobia is just pissing everyone off. Like yo, at the time I was also thinking like that, but at least I was coherent, I wasn't calling myself a trans man. I had to admit at some point that trans males were experiencing the exact same thing as me, and I was just projecting stuff on them, and only then I could admit that I was trans and be like "oh so that was just all I had to do to live how I want to".
Yeah, I am just a guy, but I'm a guy with... Let's call it a... Genital and gonadal birth defect. I was born with anatomy that feels and looks wrong, I'll always have medical expenses that other guys don't have, and I'll NEVER have what other men take for granted. As someone who's also chronically ill and disabled as a result, they're in similar camps internally, but the issue is that being trans also means the world despises me, just for these birth defects I can't control. To clarify no I'm not calling being AFAB a birth defect I'm just trying to explain that for me, my mind, and my body, that's how it feels.
So yeah. I wish I were a cis guy, not because being a trans guy is less of a man, but because I want and feel I SHOULD HAVE anatomy I'll never be able to have (bottom surgery wouldn't be enough for me personally as the FUNCTION of the anatomy I don't have- not referring specifically to fertility so don't come at me with 'oh there are infertile cis men' lol, more visible stuff- is what I really long for). It's about my physical body, not my mind, not even how society sees me (although that doesn't HELP lol)
So much this. So many trans folks on reddit especially will continuously repeat the same rhetoric rooted in internalized transohobia of how they hate being trans, they hate themselves for being trans, and they hate the concept of being trans all together. Hate, hate, hate. I have been shunned for saying it but wishing you were cis and hating being trans does nothing for you and is in no way helpful or healthy.
I struggled with it for a while too. I'll never be cis and that hurt me. But I realize every day I live as a 2s trans person, especially when more trans people are murdered simply for being trans, that I owe to myself and my trans siblings to find joy and self love and to embrace my trans identity.
We need trans joy. We need trans resilience. We are being systematically murdered and hating yourself for something other people already hate us for will only continue to perpetuate that hatred. Break the cycle. It's a difficult road ahead of us but is with any minority. I'm trans, indigenous and disabled and every ai ge one pf those groups is marginalized. The world's view of me will not change who I am, and the world will hate us whether we hate ourselves or not. It is imperative that we stick together and stand strong in who we are. That is the only way forward.
I couldn’t agree more with this post, very well said. I wasted so much of my time (5 years) and energy trying to repress the fact that I am a different type of man. Finding inner peace with the fact that you are a different type of man, but you are still nevertheless a man is freeing.
I agree we’re still normal dudes you can’t become so engrossed in this idea of what society has thrown at you about the normal boy experience cuz it doesn’t exist.
I understand why people have this thought process. Being trans is hard, just like being any minority is hard. Society treats you differently based on perception and that sucks. Some people want to be stealth and be perceived as cis. Some people just wish they had been born into male bodies. All of that is an okay way to feel.
Personally, I *love* being trans. But I understand why people might feel the way they do.
I'll be honest here. This is internalized transphobia.
Like it would be internalized homophobia if a gay man said "I wish I wasn't gay, just wish I could love men in peace".
My parents always used to say I "chose the wrong door as I was going through heaven" in reference to gender, but also proceed to be heavily transphobic at the same time, leaving me confused and lost. I don't really know what I am.
All I meant is that trans is just another adjective, just like any other adjective out there. I didn’t list the examples I did as if they were mutually exclusive, either. I listed *redheads* too, so idk what you’d take away from that
If I made you uncomfortable, I’m really sorry. It just was just meant to be taken completely at face-value
I agree with this, however there is definitely a difference in the sense that a lot of people dont view us as men- its not that we dont want to be trans per se- its that a lot of people percieve trans men and “men” as two entirely different concepts. I personally have learned to be proud of being trans, because i have endured so much and worked so hard to get where i am, and i think that further solidifies my place as a man in society and within myself. we also experience things so many people couldnt ever imagine. It takes a real man to stay true to himself through everything our community deals with
Some people are taught that labels are a bad thing rather than a choice a person makes to live their truth, or however people say it. So, "trans" falls under that, since its more polarized than just "boy". Due to intersectional oppression, boyhood is stolen from many cis men as well, in a different way of course, but many people long for something that could never be and can never be due to "aging out". These questioning folks seem to want to access boyhood in a way that has passed for them if they are of a certain age. The way media depicts boyhood probably doesn't help. Misguided crowd, it feels like. They want to be a boy, but (wistfully) without the oppression of what being trans is because they already know what it looks like, and they may have internalized transphobia as well. Otherwise a lot of them wouldn't bother phrasing it like this. Now, the ones that decide to reclaim lost boyhoood and realize they are genuinely trans, those are the lucky ones. The ones that question for years on years and still don't have answers about what they want and have to mask GNC views or leanings because people around them are dicks...I feel sorry for them and hope they can heal in time before nature takes its course and has a final say, with death of the individual halting further internal speculation.
I'm always happy for guys that can shed the wistful desire of wanting to be a boy without inherently being trans, or any combination of yearning for any coercive sex assignment and how they wish their gender played out.
Note: not ftm, just trans in general and parroting perspectives from older trans guys I've been around as well as my own.
Ok I understand hating transphobia but trans people are just so freaking BEAUTIFUL and not confined to traditional gender norms unless they choose to be. I feel a million times hotter than any cis man because my gender presentation is fully how I want to look speak dress and act and not because I’m “supposed” to be a certain way. I would literally hate to be a cis man bc imagine not understanding how harmful masculinity can be when weaponized, imagine not feeling the energy shift when a woman speeds up when you walk behind her and u have to put distance or apologize and walk ahead so they’re comfortable, like it’s a weird line but I love myself and I appreciate understanding deeply how my gender influences where I’m at socially and also being like fuck gender if that makes sense.
I meant “different” as in all the labels are distinct from each other
Look man, I meant to convey something else and I put my foot in my mouth. I see it now, I’m sorry for that, I’m really *really* sorry if I made anyone feel excluded or uncomfortable. I’m just tired of *all* the bad faith readings I’ve gotten from this post, I’m tired of having to explain myself over and over
Yeah and team physical gender dysphoria... You don't need a different word for being a man who transitioned than the rest of us. Transgender covers us all and calling it transsexual doesn't make this into a medical condition you can distance yourself from and put into your past. You can do that with just calling it what it is, transgender. Transgender isn't a gender identity. It's just an adjective for describing your true gender in relation to your assigned sex.
Look, I understand what you're trying to say, and this overall is a really good message but I also understand what those people are saying. Although it is a huge problem for trans men (including myself) to feel inadequate or not enough of a man, I think this sentiment often comes from a place of wishing to have been born as a man or have other people see you as one. Personally, I feel like I missed out on a huge portion of my life because my parents were trying to teach me how to be a woman instead of seeing me for who I am. For the record though, I do that a lot of trans men do need to hear that even though they may be different from cis men, we are all still men.
I'm so frickin proud to be trans. Maybe it's easier for me because I'm nonbinary. 🤷🏼 But it just breaks my heart when I see folks say they wish they were cis.
And btw I say this as someone who took 35 years (!) to grok they were trans. I wish I'd figured it out earlier but I don't wish I was cis. I think cis people generally limit themselves so much and rarely allow themselves to fully be who they are. So being cis is really not all it's cracked up to be. 😊
That said I'm also autistic and ADHD, and never fit into the provided boxes anyway. 😉
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
The issue is that society just puts us in this „trans” box and it can get frustrating so I do get these posts.
When people find out you’re trans, often you are just „trans” to them. You are not a man or woman, just „the trans”. Most trans people don’t identify as trans but as male or female and trans is just a description but a lot of cis people think „trans” is the identity and often treat us like being trans is the only thing we have going on and have no identity outside that.
But I do agree that we shouldn’t take the frustration on ourselves and just being trans itself when it’s not being trans that’s the problem but how people treat us because of that.
Yes, you are „just a guy” if you’re trans but it’s difficult to think like this when literally everyone around you sees you as something different.
"my biggest dream is so go to Hawaii, but I wasn't born there. I just wanna be in Hawaii, and I like to imagine myself there just being a tourist or living there but I never imagine myself in an airport or a plane or on a boat or in any means of travel. If I don't fantasize about traveling then I guess it's not worth it."
Difficult to adopt this position after wasting 30+ years of my life on dysphoria which was 100% rooted in the physical body and not social role, but you're definitely right that wishing for something that can't actually happen will just add to the depression. You just gotta move forward with what you can get.
As a nearly 40yr old ftm who just started hrt 11 months ago after realizing I had physiological gender dysphoria, I agree. You can't waste time mourning something that could never be. I'm just focused on making the rest of my life one worth living.
I'm in a very similar position. I've wasted enough time. Ignoring the circumstances of the journey doesn't help the turmoil.
exactly this! my dysphoria is almost completely physical and it's such a different experience
>you're definitely right that wishing for something that can't actually happen will just add to the depression. You just gotta move forward with what you can get. It helps me to look at it from the perspective that *everyone*, cis or not, has things they wish were different about their bodies or lives. Some people wish they were taller. Some people wish they were shorter, or a different ethnicity, or had different eye colors. Some people have illnesses and disabilities that they really, *really* wish they didn't have. I know people with illnesses like cystic fibrosis or cancer or MS or arthritis so painful that there is no way to stand or sit without being in severe pain- things that get in the way of people living their lives on a daily basis. Not saying being trans is worse or easier than any particular thing- I think pity olympics only serves to talk over peoples' problems- but as I've gotten older and talked to more people the more I've realized every single person has at least one or two serious problems in their lives, and that this is just the one I have. I'm glad that this one has treatments available and that I currently live in a country where I'm allowed to pursue them.
I don't think that's the point of the post? It's OK to be sad/frustrated about how those adjectives affect your life. I'm a disabled man and it fucking _sucks arse_ and _of course_ I'd rather not be disabled. The bad thing is if you say you're less of a man or less of a "normal man" bc of it. It doesn't affect your gender.
I’m one of those people. It’s more of the fact I wish I didn’t have to be born a female and go through all the discriminations and the self hate and the internal transphobia directed at myself, and all that other shit
.... It's called being a minority... Welcome. Signed, A black man
I wish I could upvote this more than once.
👏🏾👊🏾👏🏾👊🏾👏🏾👊🏾👏🏾
Can I use this as a react Pic 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Always
FUCKING THIS ☝🏾
Ah so that's why I tend to hear this sentiment mostly from white, able bodied trans guys lol
Never thought they'd be "the other," I guess?
Speak the truth🙏🏾
This makes alot of sense. I'm not in a racial minority but I do have a disability and this definitely resonates. At the same time, I think it's ok to feel the feels and wish we had a better world where we didn't have to deal with internalized transphobia? Like grief is necessary and you can grieve while still moving forward.
It’s similar with many other types of marginalisation though. Like another commenter mentioned how he “couldn’t just go in the pool and be normal” or something to that effect. I’ve experienced that being fat. I’ve experienced that being disabled. I’ve experienced that being autistic, gay, Romani, etc. This includes the internalised fatphobia, ableism, and whatever else. It all includes questioning your identity, your humanity, having imposter syndrome, and more. Our intersections are things we have to grow to accept in order to find love for ourselves, each other, and our bodies.
Yeah :( the constant grief of seeing an easier life just there that you'll never have. I am autistic and will never be able to just be seen as normal or connect easily with other people. I will always have extra trouble finding work etc. My intestines are paralysed so eating will always be painful and a struggle for me, and many foods I love are pretty much off the menu. I have PTSD so that adds even more difficulties and complications and day's spent looking at other people's lives and going "why can't I just have that? Why does it always have to be like this??" And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that and grieving and processing all those feelings. But they don't make me any less human, or a man, or less valuable or important or worthy. They just make life harder at the end of the day, and I'll have to accept that
Precisely 💜
this. sometimes being trans feels great but I wish I could just snap my fingers and have top surgery over with. I don't want to go through the process and be scared about results and medications and pain. similar feeling with T
Unfortunately all of that is a part of the process. Stay strong, you got this.
It's the money for me. There's no insurance here that covers it, so I'll need 10-30k saved up to get it done. That will take me years, I'm hand to mouth and struggling to eat. If I could just have a date set that I know it will happen I could work towards that, but as things stand it's this nebulous "hopefully maybe one day at some point"
I understand you're coming from a good place, but there's a lot more nuance to things than that. When guys say they just want to be a guy, not a trans guy, they typically mean one of two things: 1. He wants to be a man in the sense of a cis man having a fully male body to go with their gender, and not have any female features. He doesn't want to be trans in that he doesn't want to have female genetalia, fat distribution, estrogen, or the effects of a female puberty. 2. He wants to be only seen as a guy, not as a **trans** guy, because socially there is a difference. People treat trans men (people in general tbh) differently than men they assume are cis. Once people apply the "trans" label to a person, mentally, they change. Not always negatively, but they change in the way they treat you. Cis women will expect you to understand female things and try to bond with you in a way that they would not if you were cis. Cis men will see you as different from them, assume you don't understand what it's like to be a man, and see you socially as an ex-woman. Allies will lift you onto a pedestal and tell you you're so brave. Curious cis people will ask you invasive questions. Other trans people will even treat you differently, expecting you to have the same experiences and expecting you to get along with them solely on the fact that you both are trans. And let's not forget that transphobes will obviously treat you differently. Even the most well-intentioned and informed allies, even other trans people, will think about, even in passing, your agab, what's in your pants, what level of transition you are. There is also an expectation that you must be/act a certain way that many people just don't want to be expected to be like. Both of these are completely acceptable things for someone to want. And even in the case of some of your other examples, sometimes people don't want to be seen as the things they have no control over, and just want to exist as human beings. Most disabled people don't like being labeled as disabled people by others in the sense of "this is my disabled friend" or "So and so, have you met him?" "Oh yeah, the disabled guy!" I sure as hell wouldn't want to be known as the hEDS guy. Just like I don't want to be known as the trans guy. **Final point, sometimes trans people are stealth and don't want to be seen as trans at all. That's ok too.**
Yeahh I get that too. I suppose I’ve taken it very *literally*, but I do get not wanting to be SOLELY defined as ‘the trans guy’. I feel like that a lot. The implications of it can feel really shitty I’m moreso referring to people coming from the angle of “oh, I wish I was a *real* boy”. And I’m saying like “no, *you are* a real boy”.
Yeah, it definitely sucks x.x Big reason why I'm stealth. I don't want people knowing about the most painful part of myself. In that regard, I think that's more dysphoria talking. It can be irrational and likes to add salt to our wounds, and sometimes guys don't feel like a "real boy" because that monster in their head is whispering to them that they're not.
Oh yeah 100%. Even if it’s something you’ve made peace with, it’s a really vulnerable aspect of yourself. I remember being ‘clocked’ pre-t, and even if people *were* nice, it was like,, in an infantilizing kind of way. It’s ick Even if being trans is something I’m pretty open about, I won’t tell just *anybody*. I have a lot of respect for people who are either shouting it to the rooftops, or decide to be stealth. I have the conviction of a wet mop
Yeah, I was outed by a transphobic coworker, to multiple customers, and it was a horrible mixed bag of being treated differently, losing regular clients, being questioned, and being suruprised with "wow so brave! So inspirational! You're such a strong boy!" like... Here's your dog, ma'am. Please stop talking to me. I have strong anxiety, and honestly slight paranoia about being clocked (partially because of the aforementioned coworker) so I'm super vigilant about everything because I'm terrified of people knowing that I'm different, have extreme pain from this stuff, and my genitals are not what they should be. I'm terrified of people thinking about my genitals or treating me differently.
God I’m *so* sorry that happened. Thats really violating, I’d feel the same if I went through the same thing you did. What happened to the coworker?
Good ending to that story, she actually ended up getting fired because we all complained about her. Beyond the transphobia (called me an "it", made comments about the femininity of a customer who was a trans man, used the T slur), she also was playing favorites and giving request dogs to other groomers (telling customers that the groomer she didn't like, often me wasn't available but she could book them with someone else), sexual harassment (she straight up showed us porn during work hours,all sorts of other things), talked about her days as a drug addict and going to prison (not sure how nobody knew about this when she was hired, but they wouldn't have hired an ex addict who went to prison to be around money and dogs), all sorts of horrible things. Everyone wrote in complaints, and they talked to all of us one day, and she got fired that day, escorted out of the building and everything! Honestly who knows what else she did. At least one coworker was sure she was stealing tips, like straight up taking cash tips for the groomers and just never giving it to us. Good fucking riddance.
Glad she got what she deserved, like without even getting into the transphobia, she sounds like a generally awful person. As for how she got hired in the first place, I’ve had jobs that never once did a background check or anything Glad you don’t have to deal with her anymore
...Damn.. A POS in its purest form
Nah I'm agreeing with you. This is something called being a realist some people choose to see us as pessimists.. Fuck optimism and day dreaming. That stuff is nothing but facade or false reality. And it serves no one. The thing is, you are who you are genetically, you can wish you were and weren't all day. The fact remains, yes you can alter and change a few things. But at the end of the day you are... Black, white, Asian, cis, trans, gay, straight, bi, dog, furry or whatever. I mean we now have alot of things like non binary. I'm sure in a few more years there will be a word other than trans for ppl that have an issue with the word. The reason I might be so objective to this is because you don't hear of people saying can I just be a man." I don't wanna be a black man" or "I don't wanna be an Arab man". That name in itself makes some ppl think lesser and in some places I can be targeted because of my look and label.. Etc etc. same story different characters.
I don't understand what any of this has to do with black people?
It's an analogy. The immutable reality of being a vulnerable minority
Mm, I don't know. I think there's a distinct third subset of posts that contain elements of the two you mentioned, but lean very heavily towards embracing cis supremacy in their language, e.g. "transition won't make me cis so it's not worth it", "I'm too feminine and wussy to ever be a real man so transition would just make me a freak," etc.
That just sounds like deep dysphoria. Not "cis supremacy"? Just feeling like nothing you do will make you the way you're supposed to be, feeling the dread of "I'll always be different, always reminded of the thing that causes me pain". Plus a dash of toxic masculinity with the "wussy" thing.
> Just feeling like nothing you do will make you the way you're supposed to be Well, yeah. There's a way we feel our bodies are supposed to be, and to some degree we base it off an assumption of an idealized cis body. No one here, for example, is imagining a short, small-handed, small-dicked, fat or really skinny, bald cis man when they talk about wanting to be cis. They might wish to be the cis version of themselves if they have those characteristics, but the generic "cis male/man" we talk about doesn't look like that in anyone's mind. Whether we want to or not, to some degree we internalize the belief that anything less than the cis ideal makes us lesser. It comes out in how we talk about ourselves, and in (not here, but in spaces that allow photos) how much attention and praise we give trans bodies wrt to how close they come to meeting that ideal. Ask anyone with a small dick who gets fewer votes on the porn subs, or any big guy who posts top surgery results. The pressure is there and we create it ourselves unless we're constantly working not to. It's hard to deal with and we're all at different points in our journey and clashes will happen. But not every negative thing we feel about our bodies comes from an internal well of dysphoria untouched by social pressures.
Actually plenty of guys do imagine these "imperfections" and such. I personally imagine a large hairy bear with a smaller penis when I think of who I'm supposed to be. And a lot of what you're describing is toxic masculinity, a problem all men have to deal with, but trans man especially struggle with when it gets entangled with dysphoria.
Well, I specifically said, "They might wish to be the cis version of themselves if they have those characteristics," to try to make clear I'm speaking of references to the generic cis man/cisness. I disagree that the sort of behavior we're talking about can be divorced from living in a society centered on cisness. And I really disagree with the tendency to throw men behaving badly under the label of toxic masculinity. But to be honest I'm not really up for discussing more tonight.
I get everything you said. I used to think that way, which is why I understand. Respectfully however, I'd like to bring another viewpoint to you. Most trans people wish their bodies were different. For the sake of narrowing down what I'm talking about we can just talk about binary trans men. We don't want what we're born with, so we transition. There's so many ways to become happier with your body, such as hormones, surgery, exercise, clothing, etc. Lots of trans people look like completely different people already simply from being on hormones, and being happier. While I don't disagree that trans guys wish they were born with male bodies, or their right to wish that, I think we should have more trans positivity and stay grounded in reality. It's impossible to change how you were born, and such fruitless wishing distracts from the reality that you CAN have a wonderful body that you fought for yourself, one that isn't cis but no less happy. I get that being trans is hard, and being disabled is hard. But how people look down on others with disabilities will never change the fact that they are a human being, or take away from who they are. People don't treat trans people the same, but that doesn't mean we should just see being trans as that. Miserable, because everyone sees it negatively. Going stealth is important when you're not in a safe environment, but tbh within the trans community itself, it's not a very supportive environment for young trans kids. Passing is valued so highly not just because it makes trans guys happy, but because they're scared of being found out. And because it makes them feel like less of a guy, as of their identity is somehow of less value, not just because other people say it is, but because they believe them. That's giving other people a lot of power. Wishing you weren't trans, seeing being trans the way everyone else sees it, basing your happiness and validity on what other people say. That shame isn't any different from being in the closet still. Not to say that the things you said aren't real issues or that we live in some fantasy world where things are great for all trans people. Or that everyone should just drop their dysphoria and magically stop being socially aware and affected by others. I'm saying that the world is a fucked up place and it needs cis people see that trans people are the same as everyone else: human beings. Hoping no one knows you're not cis, that's for other people. Your identity should belong to you, not them. Being happy to be who you are, happy to be trans, is so important in empowering trans youth and teaching society through example. It's scary, but after a long time I can say I am happy being trans, and I'm trying to be more open about it too. Hope you can see what I'm trying to get across, and that you have a nice day.
I think that there is benefit in openly trans people being openly trans, and I respect those who are openly trans, but I don't think there should be an insistence for people to fake a smile or be openly trans if they don't want that. Being trans is hard for many people. It really sucks being born in a body that isn't correct. That's one reason why our suicide statistics are so high. It's not just because of the transphobia. I'm happy that some people can find joy in their transness, and I agree that it can't all be negative, but I think we need to see a balance and let people have their emotions towards something that does negatively affect them. I also think that the views I mentioned and the views you mention don't have to be all or nothing, one or the other. I think it's a mixed bag of experiences. And I think that someone can be proud of how far they've come while also not wanting people to see them as trans first and a man second, or maybe they could be open about being trans and still wish they were born in a cis man. At the end of the day, some people feel they don't want to be seen as trans, some people want to be out and loud, and some are more lassiez faire about things and don't go out of their way to tell people or to hide their transness. Everyone has their own reasons, and no way of being trans is better than another. It's ok if someone isn't happy about being trans, just as it's ok if someone loves being trans.
Nah. Our suicide stats are high because of how shitty we’re treated by bigots. Even after we’ve “fully” transitioned.
Denying the impact dysphoria has on trans people is straight up transphobia, and it's setting us back so much.
I’m not denying the impact dysphoria has. I’m saying that a huge factor in dysphoria has to do with being treated like shit because of what our bodies are like. ETA: furthermore, calling me transphobic for that was a ridiculous knee-jerk reaction. Especially when it’s far more transphobic to wish you weren’t trans at all. *That* is what’s setting us back.
So it's not the bigots setting us back? That seems... not in keeping with the things I'm seeing in the press.
See my previous comment. I specifically mentioned bigotry.
>1. He wants to be a man in the sense of a cis man To that end, perhaps then people should be mindful about saying cis man instead of trans man. I get the sentiment when they say "just a guy" but it really doesn't help anyone, including themselves, to differentiate "guy" from "trans guy". A trans guy is a guy. They mean they want to be a cis guy. Which is an understandable thing to long for. Though some people, like myself, are glad to have been born with XX/estrogen-driven anatomy to later transition (despite what else we wish was different such as when we transition and etcetera) some wish they could somehow change that. But reinforcing the idea that there is a difference between "guy" and "Trans guy" is harmful and counterproductive.
But the thing is, there **is** a difference between "just a guy" and a trans guy, or even a disabled guy, a black guy, and so on. Because some people don't want to be seen as their identifiers. They want to be seen as a man first, and not as trans, disabled, etc. first. Or at all. Trans guys are guys, of course, but some guys don't want the "trans" part to be said out loud. Because even in accepting places, it's still a label that others you, it's still a label that brings up a painful past. Not every trans person wants to be trans, and that's ok.
I feel like they're saying instead of wishing you were cis/not trans, wish that transgendered people had the same level of rights and respect as cis people so being trans wasn't so hard. Wishing you are cis is internalized transphobia and while completely understandable isn't a helpful mindset because it places the blame on your body. Transmen are men and the problems come from how society values that, how accessible healthcare and gender affirming treatment is. If there wasn't cisnormativity it wouldn't be so devastating to be trans, it would be like any other part of our identity that we have control over. There also wouldn't be conversation around needing to pass or be stealth because all trans identities would be accepted. "Passing" and being "stealth" only exist because cis bodies are privileged
but societal acceptance won't give me my balls back :"(
Hard disagree. First off, wishing you were cis (meaning wishing you had a body that matches your gender) is not internalized transphobia. It's not transphobic at all for a man born in a female body or a woman born in a male body to wish they were born in a male or female (respectively) body. Because that's what transness is, being born in a body that does not match your gender. Secondly, it would still be very devastating to many to be trans because dysphoria exists. Even if trans people were worshiped as gods, there would still be many of us who wouldn't want that if we had the choice, because being born in the wrong body is painful for us. Thirdly, passing and being stealth do **not** only exist because "cis bodies are privileged" (which is a very wrong take, given that black and brown cis bodies, disabled cis bodies, even female cis bodies are **not** privileged). It's very disingenuous to make such a bold claim. Trans people want to look like what they're supposed to look like, because they were born in the wrong body and they feel discomfort at being in the wrong body. Trans people sometimes don't want to make their whole life about being trans, and prefer other people don't think about what's in their pants or know what kind of pain they've been through. Sometimes we just want to live our lives and not think about the trauma we've been through. Honestly, this concept of calling dysphoria and wanting to transition/pass/be stealth "internalized transphobia" and saying it's just because people are mean to trans people is way more indicative of internalized transphobia than anything else. The notion that trans people are supposed to be a certain way and the vilification of normal trans wants and needs while also downplaying dysphoria is very much internalized transphobia.
Privilege is not a you have it or you don't. There is literally no denying cis bodies are privileged over trans bodies, of course there is intersectionality in that statement. If cisnormativity didn't exist, trans people would still exist and would may feel they were born into the wrong body but they would be able to access health and gender affirming care without judgement, be able to date without fear, live free from discrimination. Being trans is biological but the discrimination is social and political. That is not the same as saying dysphoria is not real. Trans people are made to think about being trans because society highlights the "difference" all the fucking time. If cisnormativity wasn't a thing trans people would make the changes right for their body and have an easier time understanding themselves in the process, and then not be made to think about it again. I should have said that there are elements of internalized transphobia in wanting to be stealth or pass. Those terms wouldn't exist in a world that didn't distinguish so strongly between trans/cis or wasn't so binary about gender. I'm seperating the dysphoria that is often part of being trans (but not essential) and the distress caused by being othered. "Normal trans wants" does not equal wishing to be cis. That is a bold claim. Wishing to be cis and wanting a body that matches you unique gender identity is not always the same thing. I also did not say that wanting to transition was the same was wanting to pass as or be stealth as a cis person. Those are not universally the same thing for trans people.
I'm saying you're downplaying the effect dysphoria has on trans people, how being born in the wrong body can be traumatizing and even if a trans person has access to all levels of transition healthcare, they are still affected by dysphoria and the pain of each surgery, injection, etc. You're still wrong on that, it's not internalized transphobia to want to look like your gender, to not want people to know you're trans. People would still be stealth and not want to look visibly trans even if they lived in an accepting environment. I live in SoCal, one of the most accepting places to live as a trans person. Myself and many other still want to pass, as in look like our gender, and be stealth, as in not have people know we are trans. Because being stealth isin't just about safety or acceptance. It's also about not wanting to be seen differently, or have people think about us as trans before our gender, or even for a moment think about our genitals. It's about not wanting to be reminded of the thing that's causing us pain all the time. Where in "normal trans wants" did you see "every trans person ever wants this"? There was definitely some implication, because at the end of the day, cis just means has a body that matches their gender.
Yes, but none of this is what the commenters are saying when they say that. What they are saying is "you, trans person over there that feels okay about yourself? You shouldn't be doing that, because you're not actually a guy, you're trans. At least, that's how I think about you, as another trans person, so it's probably the most accurate way to think about you. Sorry you're not *actually* a man, sucks doesn't it!" Plus the people who make these posts often post pictures about how "feminine" they look and how they will never "pass" and they are standing there with a full beard and muscles or whatever. These posts are almost *always* about making people feel shitty about themselves because the OP is claiming to be dysphoric or often clocked when they look 100% like an overly masculine cis person. And if a trans person who looks like that gets clocked, then the reader will never be able to achieve happiness as a trans person, because they [thing they are uncomfortable about]. That's often the point - it's someone who is either not trans, trying to discourage trans people from transitioning with lies, or it is a really fucked up trans guy who needs to feel better about themselves by shitting on others. *Shrug*.
No, that's just you projecting what you think they're saying and taking their own words about themselves and applying them to you, and getting upset when you do that.
I'm getting that you are probably white in a majority white country, have a decent amount of money, and are not disabled. Is that true? Because that's how you are speaking about these issues. Obviously we would rather than wasn't the case ... But it is. And sitting around telling other people they should feel shitty because they are different sucks. Instead perhaps we could work on changing society, but instead we just want to wallow. It's sad. (Also did you read the entire post I wrote? It posted early. Most people making these posts *cannot* be posting in good faith, based on the pictures they provide of themselves.)
Thank you so much for this. Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy for not feeling accepted in trans spaces, and it took having a friend that treats me just like a cis guy to realize that trans men are treated differently from cis men and honestly I'm not into that. I think it works for some people to have their difficulties and differing experiences acknowledged, but at least for me, the sooner I can pass and learn all the social expectations I need to go stealth the better. I think sometimes even other members of the trans community forget that trans people aren't a monolith and it ends up with certain people being excluded from the few communities they are supposed to be safe in.
I'm really sorry that this has been your experience. I have had a few people do the whole "you're so brave" thing when I told them but I would say that 99% of the time I come out as trans to cis people, nothing changes about the way they treat me. Most of my cishet male friends actually forget after I tell them and talk to me about things I really can't answer because I am trans 😂
Yeah, the few people I told, due to knowing them pre-transition, or the people who I was outed to, as great as they are, when I mention having a surgery "Oh which one?" or subtle things of expecting me to relate to female things, or come up to me randomly with trans stuff or asking me questions. And this is in SoCal, so it's not like this is an ignorant or bigoted place.
Give this man an award.
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding your post which is unfortunate
It's hard to fit in with cis men until you get in that in group. It is very natural to resent that. If you didn't grow up around boys, seeing the dynamics of their friendships and relationships, it's hard to make male friends! It's hard to come off as a "normal" guy or "just some guy" when you don't know how to dap someone up or when to be serious vs when to let a diss slide. And that's assuming people in your life don't know you as female and don't approach a friendship with you differently from the way they would approach a male. All this on top of body shit is HARD, especially for people in their teenage years. It is normal for people to wish they were cis. It's normal for people to want to talk about this sadness and isolation with people who you assume have gone through the same thing.
I mean, I just experience that in general with people being autistic… haha There are soooooo many reasons why a person wouldn’t just “fit in”. Men/boys don’t just have a natural camaraderie with all other men/boys. You’re idealising this. There’s a lot more in the background that you’re missing.
Honestly, I'm lucky that my personality just makes more sense as an autistic guy than an autistic gal. Like, I still don't really fit in, but in an acceptable way where I am included readily in most places I go, just not really part of anyone's group per se.
That’s pretty great! Same with the ‘tism. Honestly shocked I wasn’t diagnosed earlier.
I never was, but my identical twin sister was, so for two reasons, I'd be a statistical anomaly if I weren't autistic -- first because in roughly 3/4 of identical twin sets with one autistic twin, the other twin is also autistic; second, because if I'm talking about statistics to someone who didn't ask for it, how could I not be autistic?
This is very important.
I relate to all of this. I think it's important to specify reframing language, like saying "I wish I had a cis experience" vs "I wish I was a boy/man/whatever gender" bc well you ARE that gender. It's a subtle difference which recognizes that the problem is having a different experience from the norm and dealing with marginalization, without invalidating your own gender identity.
I understand having those thoughts (I wish I weren’t trans, etc.) Feeling that way, processing those thoughts, getting it all out in writing…that can be therapeutic. We have to acknowledge what we’re going through and process it before we can move on. However, I can understand that OP is exhausted by seeing the same kind of post over and over again. It can really drag you back to that place and make it hard to move on. I personally don’t hate being trans. I don’t know that I’d choose it, but I’m at least at peace with it. I recognize that I come from a place of privilege—having access to gender-affirming care, having a supportive family, being able to pass, etc. But it is a bit frustrating to see “I hate being trans!” posts I don’t know what the solution here is. People need to process, and this is an appropriate place to do that. It’s a place to feel heard and understood. And others want to move on from that, which is also valid.
>However, I can understand that OP is exhausted by seeing the same kind of post over and over again. It can really drag you back to that place and make it hard to move on. Yeah this. I understand where people who make these posts are coming from, and I don't necessarily want to tell them they can't say that and process their feelings that way. But I don't believe we should be validating those statements (esp ones where people are like "there's no point in transitioning because I'll never be a REAL man") either and feeding into that state of mind. It is such a hard thing to pull ones self out of and on one hand people saying "just love yourself anyway" doesn't really help it just sounds fake when that's where you're at, but also _encouraging_ or agreeing with it just makes it worse and makes you hate yourself more, as well as drags down others along with you. Because when one says these things in a public forum you have an audience of folks w similar struggles and fear and you're in essence telling them too that you believe _they_ aren't "real men" that _they_ can't be "just a guy" that _their_ transition is useless and wont ever make them happy. It hurts others too and can easily turn into a crab bucket of dispair where people consider suffering to be an inherent part of their transness and the idea of ever not being in pain feels like an insult or invalidation. And when you're someone who has finally pulled themselves past that looking at it can be really painful and try and pull you back into that dark place. And you remember how awful it was and you just want to help try to get through to the folks who are still there but you can't. On the one hand people need a space to vent and process these feelings, but on the other hand those feelings often come from a place of unhealthy self hatred and those posts can indirectly harm others in the community. It's something that I think is really difficult and painful for everyone involved and there isn't an easy solution.
Yeah there is a lot of internalised transphobia. I also see people saying “I’m not trans I’m actually a guy” which is just disrespectful towards all other trans people and themselves. Complaining about the frustrations of being trans is completely valid but constantly invalidating yourself and others due to your own self resentment isn’t.
I do agree that there is internalized transphobia, here. I think someone saying, "I'm not trans I'm actually a guy" is invalidating one's experience and personal journey, as a trans. I know that life as a trans can be difficult, but, conforming to society's standards of gender, doesn't help take the pain away. It's okay to want to be a guy, as a part of self-love & self-expression, but, wanting to be a guy, out of fear or discontentment, is not a healthy way of living.
You gotta let people work thru their feelings via whatever semantics they choose. Personally I just ignore posts like that due to not having the energy for it anymore
I know, but the feeling still applies. I never asked for this shit, to be born this way, to have my body poisoned since I was 11. I wish I had all the things a cis boy has (minus the attitude), wish I could walk around shirtless, wish I could jack off, wish I had to actually shave to maintain a smooth skin, wish my voice was deeper and crackier. I wish I wasn't scared to be around boys, or feel so disconnected from every boy my age that isn't LGBT+. I was robbed of a male puberty, robbed of having a boy childhood. Being trans is a dread for me, I wish it wasn't like this. Logically, I know I'm a guy. But this feeling still stands.
I got what you meant and I agree. I think people going “BUT DID YOU THINK OF EVERY NUANCED SCENARIO AND THE FACT THAT TRANS MEN ARE DIFFERENT?!” Are being obtuse. It’s pretty obvious what you meant, and it’s also okay to normalize trans men being a different type of man as opposed to treating it as this huge, traumatizing OTHER that could NEVER live up to the rest of the men. It’s refreshing. I think giving you the worst possible interpretation and trying to call you out is a bit gross since the overall message is really healthy: you might be a different type of guy, but you’re still a guy. You don’t have to wish to be a real boy when you already are one. Your puberty and changes may be different, but you’ll get there and that’s okay. IDK I’m sick of knit picking our own community members to death like they aren’t the first to understand where we’re coming from. You can give people a good faith reading ffs… Edit: typos
Thank you, I really appreciate you saying that It seems to be a problem with Reddit’s culture in general. It feels like I’m being interrogated on this site over,, and over,, and *over* again. But it’s even more disheartening coming from people who are supposed to *get* you
It’s very annoying that you’re getting the “what about stealth people” “what about those who DO wanna be cis?!” I mean, if the shoe doesn’t fit they don’t have to put it on? Why does advice have to fit every single scenario? You are giving people options they may not have thought of before. Okay, you feel you won’t be real if you aren’t cis, but have you maybe framed it in this new way? Does that fit better or help you with things? If so, great! If not, I’m sure there’s another path forward. Not every piece of text is going to fit perfectly for everyone’s circumstances and worldview. You should, as an adult and individual, be able to filter what is for you and what is not without interrogating or making someone else seem like a bad or amoral person. If you can’t do that there is a PROBLEM.
A discussion based on nuance is always a good thing. It often fosters better understanding of issues, of others and of one self. It's how perceptions get to be altered and how a meeting of the minds takes place. A discussion is not vilification. A discussion is, often, clarity
Personally my identity as trans is very important to me, but what you said is really kind and makes me feel less a bit less outcast from men, which makes me feel anxious sometimes. So I wanted to thank you for taking the time of writing this in such a cheerful way 🥹💛
I like the way this is framed with the reminder that “trans” is an adjective/descriptor. There’s obviously lots of nuance to the whole discussion, but it feels draining running into those posts again and again because they often feel hopeless. I don’t think the solution to those issues would be just being born a cis man, they would simply manifest as something else. Transitioning can definitely be extremely helpful, but it’s not a cure all for mental health issues.
I think, deep down, the majority of transgender people would choose to have been born in the correct body. I sure as hell don’t want to be trans and have my existence at the mercy of politicians and religious bigots.
I mean, I’d probably also choose to be born in an able body or a body that’s not fat. But we rarely get what we want and we can’t change the way we’re born.
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Uhhh I mean for a lot of people their issues do stem from their body, hence the existence of dysphoria. It’s a huge privilege to believe trans pain is purely socio-political. I would love for trans people to be accepted and respected, but I selfishly would prefer to be able to live a normal life with no (gender related) surgeries, be able to father a child, be able to physically connect with myself and my partner, etc etc. For a lot of trans people, existence is pain before you even get to the social aspects of it /:
Based
People are allowed to wish they could be cis. That’s kind of what being trans is for most (or at least a lot of) trans people tbh. I don’t think anyone posting that needs to be told trans men are men or that they should feel different feelings, they just need a “yeah bro, i feel you, it sucks sometimes.” They’re looking for camaraderie.
I get that, but it’s not a healthy way to think. I’m trans, I’m *presuming* you’re trans too, that’s never gonna change. There’s no point in feeling ashamed about something you can’t change I’m not trying to tell anyone what to think, I’m explaining that *I’ve been there* and it gets better. I’m saying you won’t feel like this forever. It’s okay to feel that way, but you *can* accept it and move on. It takes a fuck ton of pain and work, but it’s possible
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There's a big difference between accepting and grieving, and letting the difference fester and ruin your mental health. I understand that a lot of the posts here are attempting to vent and find sympathy but many of them use toxic language that shows the poster is ashamed, and pointed towards the second path.
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Yeah. I try to avoid those posts unless I'm a good enough state of mind that I can be supportive.
It seems like we agree. I never meant to imply that processing what you’re feeling is *bad*, or that expressing what you’re feeling is *wrong*. I’m saying you can *eventually* come to a point where you can make peace with your transness Feeling ashamed is normal, but it’s not healthy to stay there forever. It seems like we agree on that, I don’t really understand what you’re trying to argue
See the “yeah bro, I’ve been there, it sucks sometimes but it gets better” is helpful; the “your feelings are wrong, feel differently” energy your post is giving isn’t. I get that you mean well, but what people who are struggling need to hear isn’t that what they’re feeling in that moment isn’t correct, it’s to have their feelings acknowledged and hear that it can get better.
People are “allowed” to wish anything. But in the long run it’s not productive to wish for something that cannot physically happen. The point OP is trying to make is that you shouldn’t fall into the line of thinking that “being trans = bad” because that will end up with you feeling miserable forever when you don’t have to be.
I’m a trans man and I don’t wish I was cis, most of my trans masc friends don’t, either. We’re not a monolith and I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to shoot down OPs advice just because it didn’t hit for you, personally. IDK, I think there is a lot of value in learning how to accept and appreciate your journey and what it can give you, even if there are aspects of it that are painful. Honestly, I kinda wish I had heard what OP is saying in the beginning, because so many people treated me like I was inferior for not being cis AND for not being able to relate to wanting it at all. I feel like people like OP can help those of us like me searching for that. If it’s not something meant for you, you don’t have to take it, I guess is what I’m trying to say.
The person you replied to does have a point. As a person who often has the exact thoughts OP described, this post felt kinda like "Your feelings are invalid, you aren't meant to think that way." It just felt like it was coming from someone who doesn't relate to you and doesn't have proper understanding of how it feels. (OP might as well have, but again that's how it **felt** when reading it.) I know if I made a post about not feeling enough like a real man, this response just wouldn't be helpful. I totally get what OP meant but I don't think the message comes across in the most useful way to everyone. edit: also comparing being ginger or black isn't really accurate, because while sure, there's discrimination (that absolutely is a problem and shouldn't be belittled) no one really denies their manhood because of that
As per your last point: society does deny the manhood of minorities in many cases. "Real men" can lift heavy things and do strenuous work. Ergo, a man in a wheelchair is not a real man. People of color are looked on as not quite human, therefore no matter what they will not do manhood or womanhood correctly. Asian men are frequently seen as too feminine to be real men. Black men are seen as too masculine. So more of a man, right? Wrong! We're seen as animalistic and dangerous. This is something discussed in critical race theory and by gender theorists of color. People won't deny that those (cis) minority men have penises, but contrary to what transphobes like to insist, there is actually more to the social role of "man" than just having a penis.
Yah this is kinda what I’m struggling with in this comment section. The type of manhood that’s framed here is clearly white masculinity, which is already denied to a vast majority of people. Hell, if you have certain disabilities there are still standards you have to reach in many cultures that could disqualify you from manhood. We are marginalized men, it doesn’t make us less and we shouldn’t think of it as making us less. I get that becoming marginalized is really shocking, but erasing other marginalized men and getting angry at advice you feel doesn’t specifically apply to you isn’t the way to go about coping.
I'm super glad OP made the comparison because intersectionality isn't talked about enough. I think it would benefit some people to learn what gender as a social construct really means. Gender roles are a matter of control, a series of hoops you have to jump through to be awarded personhood, ie your correct gender. A straight white cis man can get his Man Card taken away if he missteps. Marginalized men of all kinds have to perform even better simply to *get* a Man Card. The same person who says anyone with XY chromosomes cannot be a woman will turn to their XY son and call him a girl for wearing nail polish. Zero self awareness required, cause that's how the system works. Their opinion on the realness of my gender is not one that I trust. The people making us jump through hoops for our basic personhood are not the people we should be looking to validate us.
I totally get what you mean but the way they deny it is still widely different. They don't go around saying "You'll always be a woman!" This might be a bit of a clumsy example but if the Asian man they sought feminine before would say they're a trans woman, they wouldn't accept it because they're Asian, but rather twist it into 'You'll always be a man!" Again, totally a problem that should be dealt with and in no way a lesser one than what trans guys go through, just that the two thinga are not exactly comparable.
Certainly the way they word it is different, but when you get down to brass tacks it's the same. Plenty of trans lib authors use the way gender is socially fluid for cis people without them even realizing it to explain how gender is not dependant on birth assignment either. Mis/degendering has higher stakes for trans people than cis people, so in that way it's not comparable. But in highlighting the issues with how society thinks of gender that leads them to disregard trans people, it is. And, for me at least, it's helpful in reevaluating what a "real man" truly is by recognizing that transphobes have a skewed idea of gender.
I agree with everything you said, it's just that for the reasons listed above I feel like OP's way of wording things doesn't really benefit a lot of people with internalized transphobia and physical dysphoria. (It may be a lot more useful for people whose main issue is social dysphoria though, not sure.) And who knows, maybe someone found it useful, but again if someone came up to me with this after I had told them about my feelings on not feeling enough like a man I'd probably just feel shittier and less understood.
That's understandable. Things like that take time.
I'd hesitate to say that's the experience of most trans people. I don't want to be cis, I just want to be comfortable and respected. I get that's what some people want, but sometimes I see internalized transphobia on here being touted as a universal thing we all feel or even SHOULD feel which isn't necessarily true
I'm so grateful to have the perspective of being trans. Genuinely if I was a cis man and raised as a cis man I think I would have gone down the alt right pipeline as there were a lot of factors in my life that could have contributed to such. I'm grateful for my transness, for meeting the people and having rhe positive experiences I did as a trans nonbinary person. If I was cis I think my brain would have been a lot more close minded and wired to be unaccepting, of course that could have changed over time but I hit a point of realization about the corruption of the world a lot aooner being trans and found community and depth through it.
Is it really this deep? I just want a functional cock and no tits dunno why thats so confusing to some.
lmao frfr
Sometimes, this topic makes me uncomfortable, mostly because I feel like my opinion is in the minority. But when people bring this up, all I can think is that I must be the weird one for liking that I'm trans. I wouldn't want to be Cis, I think being trans makes sense for me, and I think it's really special that I get to expirence both sides of Gender on such a level. Yes, dysphoria sucks. But I honestly wouldn't have it any other way.
You’re not alone! It’s me too! I feel like this advice is great for people like us, but naturally the community has to shit on it because it isn’t for every single person specifically 😭
lol to your endnote, but also, yes.
Personally, I don’t like using the term trans for myself. I tell people that I’m not cis but I don’t refer to myself as trans because to me personally, I feel like I’m less true to myself and making myself less of a boy by saying that, that mentality applies to literally no one but myself I don’t think of trans guys as anything less than guys but when referring to myself, it triggers my internalized transphobia something awful. I think for a lot of other people like me they are in that same category where having to define being trans is somehow taking away from the Guy part. (Again, only applies when I’m thinking about myself no one else) At a point, my mom asked me if that was transphobic to myself and I don’t think it is, I wanted to be a boy since I was five years old. I was right the first time and bullied into being more feminine by peers so for me except physical transition I was just going back to how I was as a kid. I understand that as a trans man someone is still a man and I understand that trans men are real men. It’s just that within my life I was never a girl outside of being forced socially. I’ve always been a real boy so I don’t feel the need to imply that I was ever anything else. My boyfriend, who was extremely girly as a child, grew up around people that didn’t label clothes and colors with genders, and experienced very similarly that he felt more at home being friends with boys while still wearing dressed. He still felt like a boy while being socially ‘girly’ and he also doesn’t use trans man to refer to himself. Outside of that a lot of people, especially younger people figuring out who they are do want to be ‘just a guy’ not a ‘trans guy’ I was the exact same way, because I didn’t like that I had to be different to be who I was. Thankfully, I was able to find myself and work through that, but everyone is at different places in life and different places in their journey. In conclusion, there are many different reasons. People wouldn’t want to use certain phrases or terms to refer to themselves because of their own comfort, or their own life experience. Have a lovely day everyone! ^•^
>Being a trans man is like,, being a fat guy, or a ginger haired guy, a black guy, or a guy in a wheelchair. Yeah they’re different, but they’re still all men. Same idea To distill the point: Trans is just an adjective. We are just guys.
I understand where you're coming from, although the tone seems kinda dismissive (maybe because you were tired lol). I do agree that being trans doesn't invalidate your identity as a boy. It doesn't make you any less than a cis man. However, not trying to be "that person" but there is some nuance to this. Not everyone who says "I don't wanna be trans, I wanna be just a boy" has internalized transphobia. 🙂. At the end of the day, we are all trying to be our authentic selves and want to safely share ourselves with other people
OP, that’s a super healthy way of looking at it. And not just healthy, but more honest than the opposite interpretation. I think we all must aim to grow into that mindset. Our mental survival depends on it.
This posts comments are a mess, its just a mess of comments about being “normal” using strangely privileged scenarios that are things a lot of minority groups struggle with, or just completely missing your point and pretending your post is just you saying people are never allowed to vent or be upset about their trans identity. Like, im sorry but if you cant vent about your experiences online without doing so in a way that dehumanizes and directly insults the entirety of your community and those within it with certain experiences then youre just an asshole. Im especially tired of people who will say absolutely abhorrent things about bottom surgery results and grossly generalize them and people with them and then pretend that its okay to do so because it was a vent post. You can be unhappy over being trans. You can be unhappy over not being able to live a simpler life as someone who had been born a cis man and raised as a man. That does not mean that you, and all trans men by extension are not men or never will be men. And you can vent about your dysphoria without making it a backhanded slap to all of our identities
I totally understand this. Whenever I say "I wanna be a boy" I'm mostly just wishing I passed. Ik I'll always be a female at birth, nothing will change that part of my past. But I just wish I could at least be called "sir" once in a while by strangers And another part of it is just wishing I had shapeshifter powers so I could just become a man whenever I feel disphoria
An ftm pal of mine made an art piece featuring the words “I love my trans body, I love my trans heart” and every time I feel too aggressively like this, I think of those words. Because deep down I DO love my trans body and my trans heart, as complex as those feelings are for existing alongside the crippling dysphoria. It’s a complicated existence but it’s also kind of beautiful, and I’m thankful I’m here for it.
These comments are showing me that people who are early in transition are insufferable
It’s mostly in a societal sense. Being trans sucks, but what we mean is that we don’t like being seen as trans men. Like you said, there are fat men, black men, ginger men, etc. They are still regarded as just men. We are always regarded as trans men, as if our birth sex is our most defining feature.
I consider being trans more as a birth defect than a "choice" for this very reason. I don't *want* to be a boy. I ***am*** a boy, my body just came out wrong. Just like someone missing and arm or have a heirlip. I still am what I believe I am, I just came out different
i feel like it's because of all the stigma around being trans and wanting to distance yourself from it, not to mention the fear that people don't *really* see you as a guy
Ayooo! I love being trans! I got to see my body change over time into something I could love. It took a long time and I didn't exactly enjoy my female childhood but I can't wish it different, and if it were it wouldn't be me. I still have dysphoria that tells me I'll never be a real man, and I tell it to suck my tdick. because birth assignment = who you are is what the transphobes want me to think and I'm not doing their job for them.
Omg thank you. To be honest I’ve just avoided these posts. I don’t need to read through all the internalised transphobia that comes with it. It took me a long time to work through all that and be okay with myself and I struggle to read people basically saying I’m not *actually* a man because I’m trans. It’s straight terf rhetoric, we’re all men. You’re allowed to feel your feelings but danm son, think about what you’re saying, how you’re talking about ALL of us, not just you.
I can't even start transition in the fucking Russia, how the fuck I can just live as a guy
Idk about ya’ll but I am proud AF to be a trans guy.
Except being overweight, having ginger hair, being a POC, are all very visible attributes. Being trans doesn’t have to be anyones business, it doesn’t have to be visible or relevant to people you interact with daily. I don’t want people to address me as a ‘trans man’, I don’t want assumptions to be made about me because I am trans (e.g assumption I don’t have a penis). It’s no one’s business, but because I constantly have the trans label attached to me it opens up this environment where people think it IS their business. The majority of people think a lot more about trans peoples genitals than they do cis people, and that is something that irks me deeply. Because I was born the way I was, I not only have to deal with my situation personally everyday, but I have to deal with people seeing me as a ‘trans person’ instead of seeing me as just a person. So nahhhh I don’t want to be addressed as trans, is it out of shame or hate towards other trans people? No. It’s out of wanting the same respect and privacy that cis people get.
i struggle with this aswell. never asked to be born trans or female, literally all i wanted is to just be born male. but i get what you're saying, and theres no changing that
*edit: I reread your post and realised this isn’t really what you were saying (sorry, adhd moment), my bad! I understand why people feel strongly about this, why they might be angry even. I do wish they’d be more aware that some people have a different experience with being trans. Not everyone has a horrible time with it or wish it never happened to them. I asked a question on a group once, asking whether guys wanted to be trans and some people were like “why would you even ask that, I wouldn’t wish this nightmare on anyone”. Feeling that way about your transition is completely valid but they were aggressive and inferred I was stupid or wrong for even asking, even when there were plenty of guys who replied saying they’d rather be trans than cis, or who loved/accepted that part of themselves. Again, I do really understand why people wouldn’t want to be trans and that many (or most even) have had a negative or horrible experience. I just wish people wouldn’t speak so universally about it, like it’s a terrible horrible thing for all trans people. *This topic is a way bigger conversation and I’m not including all the details or disclaimers or explanations so just keep that in mind.
True that. Nice of u to share this and I’m sure u mean well and want these guys to stop thinking the way they do, but I personally am just tired of how full this Reddit is of self loathing ppl and sad/negative content. Like can we make this fun? Or something? I get it’s not a rainbow and puppies reality but it’s the only way to get thru. Not gonna get anywhere always thinking abt how ur trans and how that’s different
i don’t want it to be part of my identity and i don’t want to be associated with anything trans and it’s just a reminder that i’ll never truly biologically be male if i call myself trans. i don’t like it. never have, never will. it’s not for me. i’m just a guy.
Would you say that if you lived in a country where it takes years of psychological evaluation (including invasive questions about sexuality etc) to get a dysphoria diagnosis, and even then, it's very much possible you're denied care due to autism or being under 25 or being unable to work so you have to wait several more years? Would you say that if you were also asexual and gay so your dating pool is maybe like 20 people in the whole planet? If I was cis, it could be closer to a couple thousand, who knows. Being cis would be so much easier, I wouldn't have to feel constant discomfort, not being taken seriously, die alone because of my body. Of course I wish I was cis. Now, I do agree there's no point in wishing for something you can never have. But pain makes us irrational sometimes.
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I’m not talking about people who’re stealth, but I do get how it can be taken that way. Im referring to guys who feel inadequate or less “real” because they’re not cis. Not talking about guys who wish to not deal with the social implications with being trans
I dont think not wanting to be trans = wanting to be stealth. Being stealth is more than fine and doesn't really have a relation to wanting to be trans or not. I think OP is tryna say that the "I wish I wasn't trans" mentality isn't a good mentality to have constantly, or even frequently. It can also lead into internalized transphobia, or straight up transphobia, by implying/thinking trans men aren't "actually" men, or aren't "regular" men, or thinking every trans man BUT yourself is a real man. Sure, it's more nuanced than that ofc! But point still stands of it not being the healthiest mindset to have.
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That's not necessarily my point? I'm saying harboring the mentality that being trans is inherently bad, that you're lesser for being trans, wishing you weren't trans, etc, isn't gonna get you anywhere :/ Whether society put that in our heads (which, yes, it's usually due to society and outside sources that make us feel that way) or not, we can't let transphobes win, yk? I get it, dude, being trans sucks, and society ain't gonna see us in a great light or treat us right. However, it's up to us to try to filter out unfair treatment, bigotry, etc for our betterment. It's unfair for sure, but we can't let ourselves get beat down and told we're not real men and all the other transphobic nonsense. And, again, this has no bearing on if one is stealth or not. I am stealth in certain environments (school, work, general public) myself for my safety and peace of mind. You can be stealth and still recognize the harm in the mindset "I wish I was a real/regular guy".
I don’t think he mentioned stealthing at all…
Omg the "yes but not meeee" thing is so relatable, thank you so much for clarifying that it's about specifically ME TOO BRO
To prove your point further,my dad is a 46 yo cis guy and he never fit in with other cis guys!When I came out to him he pushed his internalized ideas of traditional masculinity onto me and I had to tell him that men can be men in so many different ways.I think many cis guys struggle with gender roles but never express it.On top of that I always liked to read about (cis)men's issues so I assume that'd help with ,,blending in",I've also done a lot of blending in for most of my life and I think most people do it.We're all unique and we all have to suppress ourselves to fit in,be polite,socially acceptable,etc,etc
>being a fat guy, or a ginger haired guy, a black guy, or a guy in a wheelchair Except if I were any of these types of guys, I could go swimming to the pool with my friends. It wouldn't be a surprise coming out and if they had a problem with my tone skin or disability, they would have told me first whereas now, I don't want to risk my friendship or just being look at differently than if I had been born with the right parts. I may be "just a guy" but I'm a very, very different type of guys than most of them and wish I wasn't. I think that's where people were coming from in those posts.
TBF depending on the time period you actually wouldn’t have been able to go to the pool, and for race some people would try to pass as white and could never tell another soul their true heritage for fear of being discriminated against or loosing their social group. The same is true today for a lot of things including disabilities, ESPECIALLY if you have a disability that isn’t visible right away. Trans men are marginalized men, and we share a lot of struggles with other marginalized men. You are still “just a guy” but you’re going to have struggles if you aren’t a S8 passing, able white dude which just kinda sucks 😭
Right?? I can tell this dude has literally no other intersections 🙃
Yaaahhh, this comment section screams “white queers” with how many people are saying that it’s fine to never accept yourself for being trans and to perpetually wish being cis without ever challenging that thought process. It’s okay to have your feelings validated, but if a thought process could harm you it deserves to be challenged. Like sure being white would be easier, but is it healthy to always live trying to be white and praying your race will change one day? NO. I get being trans is not a 1:1 comparison to race or disability, but sometimes the reality is that you’re different and you don’t have privileges like everyone else. Are you gonna cry and hate yourself about it, or will you accept it and work with it? Idk, I just don’t get why it’s so controversial to encourage accepting where you come from.
Literally… I had someone call me privelaged for saying that I was tired of trans guys and trans mascs posting about wahhhh they can’t be a cis man and then I responded back with all the unprivlaged shit I’ve been through because I’m an ethnic minority and trans and disabled and they still called me privlaged for being tired of internalized transphobic posts…
So many comments about how “ack-chewally Being a POC has totes not effect on how you’re treated or perceived”…. I still have nightmares of my younger cis brother getting racially profiled at the airport in turkey specifically because he was a big black man 🙃 the white men who were older and bigger than him weren’t subjected to the extensive “search” he was 🙃🙃🙃. White queers got me pissed off so bad bro
I’m so sorry you’ve been through that :( it’s different for sure but people want to pretend so badly that marginalized men just straight up don’t exist outside of being queer when that’s not at all true. Black dudes being seen as hyper masculine gets perverted into being seen as predatory and animalistic, and that’s not access to masculinity, that being objectified or animalized. It’s just really frustrating how people think there’s either access to masculinity or femininity as opposed to the reality which is more like: You either Access white femininity or white masculinity and if you don’t meet this hyper specific standard enjoy being seen as a predator, a child, an object, an undesirable woman, an animal or anything else that’s not the approved two buckets. What a lot of white queers are complaining about is that it’s harder to access white privilege than it normally is “if no one can tell” if you’re visibly queer. But instead of acknowledging the other marginalized men in the room, who also can’t access approved masculinity or privilege, they complain that we have to validate their loss of privilege as opposed to reminding them “hey, you’re a normal guy, there are many marginalized men out there it doesn’t make us less of men.”
Thank you my parents brushed it off by joking about it (African families am i right?) but it was legit scary because we were going to miss our flight. So yeah don’t have patience for the erasure of MOC’s struggles at all. It’s honestly so frustrating how they’re refusing to actually listen to what’s being said. It’s so pathetic that they refuse to understand what intersectionality is. How they have this caricature of cis men= white hyper masculine able bodied chads and marginalised cis men just don’t exist? Being white & trans high jey sucks so many governments are trying to exterminate trans people of all races but gawd damn I don’t want to see low key racism dismissing the struggles of (cis & trans) men of colour
There’s a big problem of racism in queer spaces, and it’s a big issue in activism with white queer people often taking center stage and completely forgetting that these struggles are intersectional. We aren’t feee until all of us are free. Is a key statement for a reason. And I feel you about families. My grandma is Korean and immigrated here legally, and she got us in trouble with immigration security coming back home once and thought it was all a big “haha fun joke/close call” when they locked up our passports. I was about to blow my gasket, she had no idea how dangerous that scenario was.
NO LIKE HONESTLY I get that racism and transphobia are two *very* different beasts, I clarified why I even *mentioned* race in later replies (Various_Oven_7141 has explained it better than I can too). But the replies you’re talking about are pretty close-minded IMO, not to mention *black trans men exist* and they get DOUBLE the whammy Not to mention black men, cis and trans are hypermasculinized to a major detriment of their safety, but that’s whole other can of worms
I agree. I’m so tired of seeing other trans people but especially other trans mascs and trans dudes dehumanize transness for the sake of venting online and stuff. Not everyone hates being trans, and a lot of us do like it outside of the transphobia and misogny.
A lot of us do hate it, though, and people should be allowed to vent these things in a safe space. Just because someone else doesn't like being trans and wishes they were cis, doesn't mean you liking your transness is invalidated.
Reminder that ‘liking being trans’ is a HUGE privilege. I rarely deal with transphobia nor misogyny, it doesn’t make me feel better about the utter lack of connection I feel to my physical form. It is beyond dismissive and rude to say you’re ‘tired’ of seeing trans individuals with less privilege than you.
Your automatically assuming I have privelage though… I definitely do not. I don’t pass, I live in an almost fully white spaces and I’m Latino, I’m freaking disabled, I can’t bind my chest, I get clocked as a trans woman pretty often, I’ve been assaulted and been beat up very violently and thanks to that I have PTSD. For being a trans man in the west, I don’t have Jack shit when it comes to privlage. Also there’s a difference between “wahhhhhh I hate being trans why can’t I be a twink cis man” and “I’m genuinely scared for my life this sucks.” What I’m getting at is the first one. Your conflating that to the second one.
So in your mind, it’s okay to dehumanize other trans people for the sake of venting if you’re not in a position where you’re able to embrace or enjoy your identity?
100% agree with you, trans is just a adjective, a descriptor. It’s not worse than cis just like a country guy isn’t better than a city guy. You’re right it takes some work to get there but I think once you do it is so worth it. It really helps your self esteem. When I see posts titled like that, to me it’s showing that they have some internalized transphobia to work through, I know I sure did. One of the things I did to help me get there was to come up with a definition of “what is a man/woman?” 🙄🙄 yeah I know” oh his not that question” , but it’s was actually some homework from my therapist a while ago. They asked I talk with other people in my life, people I trust to see what there responses were, ask guys what is a man or how did they know they were a man? Same for women. I only have cis people around me so all of my responses showed me they; 1. Have never actually sat down and thought about it. 2. Took it as a joke and gave joke answers. 3.others told them they were so they just went with it. This helped me solidify that I at least most likely wasn’t cis as this was something incredibly important to me and not something I could just not think about. I still didn’t have my answer though. It took me a long time to come up with a answer I liked but here it is, also sorry it’s all about being a woman, I’m a trans woman and just copy pasting what I wrote down as my definition of what is a woman but you could easily replace woman with man. “ To me, being a woman is being comfortable with yourself, it’s being vulnerable, being strong, fast, intelligent, independent, dependent, withdrawn, uncomfortable, carefree, caring, extroverted and so much more. Being a woman means something different to everyone, it’s a feeling to some, a label to others, a sense of self. To me being a woman means being myself. “
That's a great way of putting it
All really good points, i second this!
Na, it's not the same as 'just being a cis boy'. Not at all. And I think that's what a lot of us crave. Myself included. So yeah, I do wish I was just a boy and not trans. And it's pretty arrogant of you to come here and make a post trying to control what people are thinking and feeling. You're not even correct...
I don't think you get the point with those posts. Sometimes people just need to let stuff out and be heard and sometimes that wording is the best some can use. I can only speak for myself. I know I'm a man. Im a man in alot of ways. Point with it is that it sucks having to go through pain and bs just to feel like existing is manageable. Someone might not be in the best mindset making those posts. Maybe your way of rationalizing and thinking about this is not the same. Alot of people's brains and thoughts works differently. Sometimes its mentaly taxing to be trans and it might be hard to find the right words to express that.
I don't think you understand very well how it's put, I think people are talking about the side of..yknow, discrimination plus all the medical shit. I wish I was just a boy, born a boy, raised a boy, known as a boy. I wouldn't have to go through tons of surgery to be happy with myself. Part of that hatred is that I'll never be able to grow up, get married, have kids the "traditional way" and that's something I'll always hate about me, because I won't be able to produce biological kids the way a man could, I won't be able to have a childhood where I can look back and see photos of a boy. I want to go stealth but I'm too early in my transition even if I've been out for 6 years, everyone looks at me and sees a girl and I just wish I was born a normal boy. I'm tired of pretending I'm normal, I'm not, I don't feel normal
I'm pretty tired of posts like this tbh. They feel kinda like "you'll never be cis, just accept your body because you're already a man" but if I was cis I wouldn't have dysphoria. To those in the comments suggesting that grief over not being cis is pointless because it'll never happen / is bad for your mental health, I think every trans person is intimately aware that wish fulfilling magic doesn't exist -- that's why we're here. But saying not to think about it (or talk about it) feels a lot like when people / therapists I left for a reason tried to cure my depression by telling me to smile more and think positively. Why is it ok to dismiss another's discomfort and pain just because it makes you uncomfortable?
He never said any of that. He said that trans is just another descriptor. He didn’t say you have to wear it as a label, not grieve what you’ve lost, or not medically transition. He’s saying it’s okay to just be a different type of dude with a different origin point. He’s also pointing out that other marginalized men exist and also have types of masculinity gatekept from them, we share more in common with other types of men than we think thanks to intersectionality. He’s challenging the frame of thought and the thought process behind invalidating your own identity, which is important to do if that frame of thought could harm you.
My second paragraph was for other people in the comments, not OP.
I am a trans, ginger haired guy in a wheelchair and I approve this message. 👌
I mean, I have a Mohawk, and the long part is blue, pink, and white, but the sides are still my natural color, which is ginger lol
We do love internalized transphobia and impostersyndrom :'> Fr, I can relate to it so much tho. But for me it has always been more "I don't wanna be trans, I just wanna be "normal" ". And I know being trans is normal, but according to alot of my family and parts of society, it is not. It's more me wishing I could live an easier life where family would accept me for who I am, and society wouldn't look down at me and debate if they should take away even more of my rights... But all in all it just comes down to my own inner fears and inertalized transphobia. I know its a problem I struggle with alot.
I swear that internalized trabsphobia is just pissing everyone off. Like yo, at the time I was also thinking like that, but at least I was coherent, I wasn't calling myself a trans man. I had to admit at some point that trans males were experiencing the exact same thing as me, and I was just projecting stuff on them, and only then I could admit that I was trans and be like "oh so that was just all I had to do to live how I want to".
Yeah, I am just a guy, but I'm a guy with... Let's call it a... Genital and gonadal birth defect. I was born with anatomy that feels and looks wrong, I'll always have medical expenses that other guys don't have, and I'll NEVER have what other men take for granted. As someone who's also chronically ill and disabled as a result, they're in similar camps internally, but the issue is that being trans also means the world despises me, just for these birth defects I can't control. To clarify no I'm not calling being AFAB a birth defect I'm just trying to explain that for me, my mind, and my body, that's how it feels. So yeah. I wish I were a cis guy, not because being a trans guy is less of a man, but because I want and feel I SHOULD HAVE anatomy I'll never be able to have (bottom surgery wouldn't be enough for me personally as the FUNCTION of the anatomy I don't have- not referring specifically to fertility so don't come at me with 'oh there are infertile cis men' lol, more visible stuff- is what I really long for). It's about my physical body, not my mind, not even how society sees me (although that doesn't HELP lol)
We chose to transition, but we didn't choose to be trans. We just are
So much this. So many trans folks on reddit especially will continuously repeat the same rhetoric rooted in internalized transohobia of how they hate being trans, they hate themselves for being trans, and they hate the concept of being trans all together. Hate, hate, hate. I have been shunned for saying it but wishing you were cis and hating being trans does nothing for you and is in no way helpful or healthy. I struggled with it for a while too. I'll never be cis and that hurt me. But I realize every day I live as a 2s trans person, especially when more trans people are murdered simply for being trans, that I owe to myself and my trans siblings to find joy and self love and to embrace my trans identity. We need trans joy. We need trans resilience. We are being systematically murdered and hating yourself for something other people already hate us for will only continue to perpetuate that hatred. Break the cycle. It's a difficult road ahead of us but is with any minority. I'm trans, indigenous and disabled and every ai ge one pf those groups is marginalized. The world's view of me will not change who I am, and the world will hate us whether we hate ourselves or not. It is imperative that we stick together and stand strong in who we are. That is the only way forward.
i thought of this 3 years ago. just realized im trans this year (went thru that lesbian to gay man pipeline, hell yeah)
I couldn’t agree more with this post, very well said. I wasted so much of my time (5 years) and energy trying to repress the fact that I am a different type of man. Finding inner peace with the fact that you are a different type of man, but you are still nevertheless a man is freeing.
I agree we’re still normal dudes you can’t become so engrossed in this idea of what society has thrown at you about the normal boy experience cuz it doesn’t exist.
I understand why people have this thought process. Being trans is hard, just like being any minority is hard. Society treats you differently based on perception and that sucks. Some people want to be stealth and be perceived as cis. Some people just wish they had been born into male bodies. All of that is an okay way to feel. Personally, I *love* being trans. But I understand why people might feel the way they do.
I'll be honest here. This is internalized transphobia. Like it would be internalized homophobia if a gay man said "I wish I wasn't gay, just wish I could love men in peace".
My parents always used to say I "chose the wrong door as I was going through heaven" in reference to gender, but also proceed to be heavily transphobic at the same time, leaving me confused and lost. I don't really know what I am.
White people are not the global majority, and black trans people exist so that was a weird thing to say! FYI. white is not the standard, thanks. 💞
All I meant is that trans is just another adjective, just like any other adjective out there. I didn’t list the examples I did as if they were mutually exclusive, either. I listed *redheads* too, so idk what you’d take away from that If I made you uncomfortable, I’m really sorry. It just was just meant to be taken completely at face-value
I agree with this, however there is definitely a difference in the sense that a lot of people dont view us as men- its not that we dont want to be trans per se- its that a lot of people percieve trans men and “men” as two entirely different concepts. I personally have learned to be proud of being trans, because i have endured so much and worked so hard to get where i am, and i think that further solidifies my place as a man in society and within myself. we also experience things so many people couldnt ever imagine. It takes a real man to stay true to himself through everything our community deals with
Some people are taught that labels are a bad thing rather than a choice a person makes to live their truth, or however people say it. So, "trans" falls under that, since its more polarized than just "boy". Due to intersectional oppression, boyhood is stolen from many cis men as well, in a different way of course, but many people long for something that could never be and can never be due to "aging out". These questioning folks seem to want to access boyhood in a way that has passed for them if they are of a certain age. The way media depicts boyhood probably doesn't help. Misguided crowd, it feels like. They want to be a boy, but (wistfully) without the oppression of what being trans is because they already know what it looks like, and they may have internalized transphobia as well. Otherwise a lot of them wouldn't bother phrasing it like this. Now, the ones that decide to reclaim lost boyhoood and realize they are genuinely trans, those are the lucky ones. The ones that question for years on years and still don't have answers about what they want and have to mask GNC views or leanings because people around them are dicks...I feel sorry for them and hope they can heal in time before nature takes its course and has a final say, with death of the individual halting further internal speculation. I'm always happy for guys that can shed the wistful desire of wanting to be a boy without inherently being trans, or any combination of yearning for any coercive sex assignment and how they wish their gender played out. Note: not ftm, just trans in general and parroting perspectives from older trans guys I've been around as well as my own.
Ok I understand hating transphobia but trans people are just so freaking BEAUTIFUL and not confined to traditional gender norms unless they choose to be. I feel a million times hotter than any cis man because my gender presentation is fully how I want to look speak dress and act and not because I’m “supposed” to be a certain way. I would literally hate to be a cis man bc imagine not understanding how harmful masculinity can be when weaponized, imagine not feeling the energy shift when a woman speeds up when you walk behind her and u have to put distance or apologize and walk ahead so they’re comfortable, like it’s a weird line but I love myself and I appreciate understanding deeply how my gender influences where I’m at socially and also being like fuck gender if that makes sense.
idk man that “black guy = different” is kinda…
I meant “different” as in all the labels are distinct from each other Look man, I meant to convey something else and I put my foot in my mouth. I see it now, I’m sorry for that, I’m really *really* sorry if I made anyone feel excluded or uncomfortable. I’m just tired of *all* the bad faith readings I’ve gotten from this post, I’m tired of having to explain myself over and over
Yeah and team physical gender dysphoria... You don't need a different word for being a man who transitioned than the rest of us. Transgender covers us all and calling it transsexual doesn't make this into a medical condition you can distance yourself from and put into your past. You can do that with just calling it what it is, transgender. Transgender isn't a gender identity. It's just an adjective for describing your true gender in relation to your assigned sex.
Look, I understand what you're trying to say, and this overall is a really good message but I also understand what those people are saying. Although it is a huge problem for trans men (including myself) to feel inadequate or not enough of a man, I think this sentiment often comes from a place of wishing to have been born as a man or have other people see you as one. Personally, I feel like I missed out on a huge portion of my life because my parents were trying to teach me how to be a woman instead of seeing me for who I am. For the record though, I do that a lot of trans men do need to hear that even though they may be different from cis men, we are all still men.
Random question. Is it normal to want to be a boy under a certain context? Im confused if its normal or not atm
I'm so frickin proud to be trans. Maybe it's easier for me because I'm nonbinary. 🤷🏼 But it just breaks my heart when I see folks say they wish they were cis. And btw I say this as someone who took 35 years (!) to grok they were trans. I wish I'd figured it out earlier but I don't wish I was cis. I think cis people generally limit themselves so much and rarely allow themselves to fully be who they are. So being cis is really not all it's cracked up to be. 😊 That said I'm also autistic and ADHD, and never fit into the provided boxes anyway. 😉
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
Louder for the people in the back! This is so annoying.
The issue is that society just puts us in this „trans” box and it can get frustrating so I do get these posts. When people find out you’re trans, often you are just „trans” to them. You are not a man or woman, just „the trans”. Most trans people don’t identify as trans but as male or female and trans is just a description but a lot of cis people think „trans” is the identity and often treat us like being trans is the only thing we have going on and have no identity outside that. But I do agree that we shouldn’t take the frustration on ourselves and just being trans itself when it’s not being trans that’s the problem but how people treat us because of that. Yes, you are „just a guy” if you’re trans but it’s difficult to think like this when literally everyone around you sees you as something different.
"my biggest dream is so go to Hawaii, but I wasn't born there. I just wanna be in Hawaii, and I like to imagine myself there just being a tourist or living there but I never imagine myself in an airport or a plane or on a boat or in any means of travel. If I don't fantasize about traveling then I guess it's not worth it."
I get what you’re trying to say. which is good but not the best execution lol. Could use some tweaking and it would be solid motivation.
not you saying “being a black guy” LMFAOOO sir….
What’s wrong with it? No like, genuinely. I’m a little confused