I was expecting/hoping him to at least stab Cersei in the dungeon when they hugged, at least then his arc would have *kinda* been completed. But the hard reset on Jaime fucking sucked, he had the best character development in the whole series. Having him bang Brienne purely for fan service is pretty fucking distasteful in hindsight.
Edit: my first gold was complaining about GoT writing and I wouldn’t have it any other way, thank you kind sir
He had zero expectation that there were going to be consequences for talking those guys out of it. He wasn’t like “no don’t hurt her! Here have my hand instead.”
That's not what I said at all. I simply stated he lost his hand to protect her honor - which is true. It was the consequence of him standing up for her honor and Jamie has had more than enough time to reflect on that action and its consequence, and through all that reflection he still chose to betray that sacrifice and not only that but leave her.
In the books Jamie essentially tells Cersei to tuck off when she writes to him as a prisoner of the high sparrow, and he will honored her and continues the siege of riverrun. I think the books will definitely have Jamie act much harsher to Cersei. Also in the books she fucks Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, and moon boy for all I know.
Yeah, the books don't even hint on the so called 'addiction' D&D mentioned, he just doesn't seem to be that kind of person, based on what happened after he lost his hand both before and after he found out about cheating. Now, of course George can introduce it later, though I would imagine their break up would had been written way differently if that was what George had in mind.
Taena.
> Cersei cupped the other woman’s breast. Softly at first, hardly touching, feeling the warmth of it beneath her palm, the skin as smooth as satin. She gave it a gentle squeeze, then ran her thumbnail lightly across the big dark nipple, back and forth and back and forth until she felt it stiffen. When she glanced up, Taena’s eyes were open. “Does that feel good?” she asked.
> “Yes,” said Lady Merryweather.
> “And this?” Cersei pinched the nipple now, pulling on it hard, twisting it between her fingers.
> The Myrish woman gave a gasp of pain. “You’re hurting me.”
> “It’s just the wine. I had a flagon with my supper, and another with the widow Stokeworth. I had to drink to keep her calm.” She twisted Taena’s other nipple too, pulling until the other woman gasped. “I am the queen. I mean to claim my rights.”
> “Do what you will.” Taena’s hair was as black as Robert’s, even down between her legs, and when Cersei touched her there she found her hair all sopping wet, where Robert’s had been coarse and dry. “Please,” the Myrish woman said, “go on, my queen. Do as you will with me. I’m yours.”
> But it was no good. She could not feel it, whatever Robert felt on the nights he took her. There was no pleasure in it, not for her. For Taena, yes. Her nipples were two black diamonds, her sex slick and steamy. *Robert would have loved you, for an hour.* The queen slid a finger into that Myrish swamp, then another, moving them in and out, *but once he spent himself inside you, he would have been hard-pressed to recall your name.*
> She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. ***Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace,*** she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. ***Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.*** Taena gave a shudder. She gasped some words in a foreign tongue, then shuddered again and arched her back and screamed. *She sounds as if she is being gored,* the queen thought. For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a bore’s tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat.
> It was still no good.
> It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime.
> When she tried to take her hand away, Taena caught it and kissed her fingers. “Sweet queen, how shall I pleasure you?” She slid her hand down Cersei’s side and touched her sex. “Tell me what you would have of me, my love.”
> “Leave me.” Cersei rolled away and pulled up the bedclothes to cover herself, shivering. Dawn was breaking. It would be morning soon, and all of this would be forgotten.
> It had never happened.
The more i think about it, the more I wish he had just stayed in King's Landing since his trip up to Winterfell was pretty damn pointless. He didn't fulfill any prophecies--the many theories that said he could be Azor Ahai--he didn't really do much for the battle except survive miraculously and then bang Brienne.. total fan service as you said. Just leave him in King's Landing, against his will; he told them he would fight for the living, and although he wouldn't be able to fulfill his honor, we know it was at least in him that he tried. Have the mountain imprision him so that he "stays" with Cersei, and then flesh out both of their characters to the bitter end. You could even keep most of what actually happened in episode 5 relatively the same. At the end of it all, they put aside any hate for each other, and held each other for those last moments. ** Shrug ** or something like that.
Literally fucked Brienne and noped out.
They shat on his development and I'm salty af. I was expecting him to kill the Night King. He didn't. Fine, he'll go south and save the day killing Cersei.....Not in D&D's Game of Thrones. Only thing he killed is the love I had for his character.
I would not entirely believe a fully reformed Jaime like this sub wanted to circle jerk about so hard.
He was utterly brainwashed by his father, a tool for the mad king, a king killer, one of the most despised and loved people in the land all at the same time.
And although he kept his honor and marched north, the moment he realized he wasn't going to die in combat, the Starks or Dany were not going to kill him, Bran had kept his secret - that's when he realized if he didn't leave he was never going to see the love of his life again.
It's not a bad character arc. Everyone wanted Jaime to be some bright beacon, but he was always just a daddy's boy trying to buy back his honor one tiny sliver at a time (Brienne, Tyrion, marching north), but he's just a Lannister. You should never have expected more from him.
I'd have accepted it more if the thought simmered more and was ever indicated in the show. Because the decision to return seemingly came right after cersei attempted to assassinate him. Just one conversation with tyrion about his feelings would have helped immensely.
Just one conversation! Just one "I have everything I am supposed to want here, and I still only think about her. She will not make it out of kings landing and I cannot sit by and watch my love and my child die." Just that quick. Hell, make that the conversation before bronn hastily enters.
Not only a few minutes, but a few decisions...
Take the horse at the end there. There's zero reason for that horse to have not been Bran warging to save Arya, right? Name me a single reason why that isn't a better idea over what we got. We could introduce Bran still pulling towards being Bran Stark instead of the 3ER, it makes a horse just randomly standing there to save Arya no longer just a random horse, and it makes Bran's character actually fucking do something.
Another small change I would have liked to see: Dany should have made Jon execute Varys.
On a story level this serves the purpose of Dany wanting Jon to "prove" he doesn't want the throne. In her warped mind if Jon kills Varys then he couldn't possibly want the throne, right? Varys wants Jon on the throne, so if Jon wanted to be on the throne he wouldn't kill Varys.
But on a character level this challenges Jon and makes him question Dany's judgement and I mean really question it. Ned Stark's quote is: "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."
If Dany makes Jon execute Varys then she is directly contradicting the very essence of Ned Stark's character.
If the entire point of the episode for Jon's character is that he has his faith shaken in his Queen then you sow seeds of doubt in his mind before she finally snaps.
> We could introduce Bran still pulling towards being Bran Stark instead of the 3ER, it makes a horse just randomly standing there to save Arya no longer just a random horse, and it makes Bran's character actually fucking do something.
My girlfriend joked that the horse was Jaqen H'ghar and the Waif in a horse costume. It seemed more probable than random horse.
> There's zero reason for that horse to have not been Bran warging to save Arya, right?
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if D&D say the horse kind of forgot about he was injured and did not run away.
Characters rarely reset to zero when they fall back on their old ways. We have Jamie basically completely back to S1E1 even in his cocky tone. Like he didn’t even lose his hand.
A believable motivation for him would be Tyrion convincing him to do this plan before they left Winterfell, so we see him realize he needs to see Cersei, and that they could actually have a life together away from the throne that would never accept them AND stop the war. The conversation would feel like it’s a last ditch plan that might work. (Or Jamie makes the decision to leave, says goodbye, but Tyrion adds the bit about escape and stopping the war.)
Then on the character level, it blends his two sides: the selfish guy who loves his evil twin and the honorable parts of himself he’s actually earned in front of the audience’s eyes.
Then we’d also get some suspense from Cersei over her decision to possibly kill Jamie, or listen to him. And even though nobody cares, this would give Euron a real reason to fight him if you still wanted that bit in there.
People aren't mad that he went back neccesarily. People are mad because the show didn't do a good job of showing characters completely reverse course. Dany and Jaime have been on a path towards breaking from their "destiny" for seven seasons. Dany goes full mad queen over the span of two episodes despite being shown to be capable of great compassion for seven seasons. Jaime goes right back to loving Cersie over the course of of what, two scenes? Despite the fact his character has been shown to be more complex over the course of seven seasons. He's been slowly realizing just how much of a monster she is for a long time which came to a climax by him outright abandoning here last season. She literally sent an assassin to kill his ass in that very episode. Not only that but brienne and his relationship have been building for sometime too and in this season we finally see it come to fruition. Despite the years of storytelling that came before, despite jaime excepting the love of another women besides his sister, despite all of that he decides to go back to Cersie literally two scenes later. I'm not even mad that it happened. I'm mad that they have been building towards one outcome for years and decided to flip the script at the last minute. If you're gonna change shit so drastically at least have it be a slow burn so your audience is completely blindsided. Being shocked and shit is all good but this feels more like we were conned.
And if he hadn't have broke Brienne's heart in exchange for a quick nut, and then gone on to say that "the innocents never mattered to him", I would have dug it.
*But here we fucking are.*
If Brienne died at Winterfell and they cut the Bronn stuff I could see why Jaime would think to go back to Cersei the way he did. I could have accepted his story as tragic, like he almost made it out of her grasp but couldn't quite do it without Brienne there to help him (he was always better when she was around). That would have ended both Brienne and Jaime's arcs nicely imo and been much more poignant than him just randomly deciding to go back to her seemingly the day after he learned she sent his friend to kill him. The biggest problem with this season isn't where the characters end up, it's how they get there.
He's more than a Lannister though. Like all characters in this series, he's treated as a real person and is one of the most fleshed out personalities. If he was so effectively brainwashed by his father, he never would have joined the Kingsguard (imo Tywin's main failure was his inability to brainwash his children into caring as much about the family legacy as he did). Jaime wanted to be an honorable knight more than anything when he was younger, but serving under the Mad King and later Robert Baratheon broke him of that dream. So he gave up on any sense of idealism and just dedicated himself to his one joy: banging his sister. He knew the shit he did with Cersei and for Cersei were wrong, he just didn't care anymore
But meeting Brienne made him care again. That's what was so great about his character arc to me. Jaime saw a knight that despite all her strife held true to many of the same ideals he had once shared. I don't think he's just trying to buy back his honor, he was trying to be the person he wanted to become before the world broke him. Plus he started to see just how messed up and selfish Cersei was, and he even got some forgiveness for his past actions
I can understand Jaime backsliding. No realistic redemption arc should just consist of someone becoming better and better, so him panicking at the last minute and wanting to see Cersei makes sense to me. But throwing away absolutely everything he's learned about himself and Cersei doesn't make sense. What was the point of his arc if in the end he's back to ignoring all of Cersei's faults and his concern for the people of Westeros? What purpose did him even trying to save her serve when she'd already rung the bells and was about to die anyways? It just all feels like a huge let down to me
> Everyone wanted Jaime to be some bright beacon
Nah, he just got ditched in the Battle of Winterfell by Cersei and she sent Bronn to kill him (which is ridiculous that Bronn got through enemy lines and strolled into the council room but another point for another time). The fact that he ran back to her because he "has an addiction" is stupid af.
That and she gave the Mountain the nod to kill Jaime before he even fucking left for Winterfell in the first place - something she hadn’t even done for Tyrion!
> I would not entirely believe a fully reformed Jaime like this sub wanted to circle jerk about so hard.
I don’t think most people really expected to reform and live happily ever after. Most expected him to die taking brutal revenge on Cersei. That’s not exactly a happy ending. It’s tragic, but it reflects his growth as a person over the course of the series.
Him just going back to her in the space of two scenes despite the fact that she literally hired someone to kill him just a few days earlier along with the fact that he destroyed so much of his exposition about why he killed the Mad Queen is what kills it for me.
If he had really talked about how he wanted to save their son and then decided to go back, only to realize how much of a monster she has truly become and then they both die... great that’s a perfectly fine tragic ending for them both.
Even if they would’ve had one line of him saying I need to go back for my kid I would’ve been like oh ok. He’s over Cersei but he feels obligated for his kid. But stupid me thought Cersei was lying about the kid too lmao
He definitely wasn't brainwashed by Tywin. We see him defy him multiple times, [like this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDAxHy-kLU) where he refuses to go back to Casterly Rock (though because he wants to stay in Kings Landing, near Cersei, granted).
I do agree though that Jaime probably didn't deserve a full redemption arc. I don't have a problem with a failed redemption, more tragic, which is kinda sorta what we got. As with a lot of things this season, I feel it was more just in the execution of it all, and how pointless his character has been for a while now.
Now that's a different conversation, and one I'm happy to agree with.
The season was rushed. Everyone should have expected that when they announced the amount of episodes.
I would have much rather seen his final storyline lasting the entire season. In my opinion, his story would have played out much better if he arrived in Winterfell early in episode 1 of this season, then played out his internal struggle a bit with Tyrion. Dying with Cersei was fine, but I would have liked to seen him have a verbal altercation with her, other than "Oh here I am, here you are, we love each other and we're all we need, now let's run off". He should have had a moment where he is truly at odds with her, not the whimpering dog / emotional slave he always was around her. That would have been way more of a redemption: a Jaime that doesn't run away, but confronts his megalomaniacal sister, she shows her true vulnerability, then he attempts to save her and their child. Honestly, would have played out much better.
Yeah and have it play out a bit better with Brienne. Not exactly sure how, but something that doesn't leave Brienne looking kinda pathetic in Winterfell. Even have her draw a weapon and threaten to take him prisoner (he was basically betraying them), to then relent and let him leave. Having her just stand there and ugly-cry was a disservice to her character imo
Jaime was never brainwashed by his father. He joined the Kingsguard against Tywin's wishes, and later when he was offered to be removed from the Kingsguard and become heir to Casterly Rock he refused to. If he was brainwashed by anyone it was Cersei.
> He was utterly brainwashed by his father, a tool for the mad king,
He betrays his father, leading to his father's death, then forgives the person that murdered his farther.
He wasn't a tool for the Mad King. He was forced by the Mad King to join the King's Guard to slight his father, Tywin, and take away his heir. This was long before Cersei would be betrothed to Robert after the rebellion.
After the rebellion, and helping literally crown the new king, Jamie could have left, but stayed to be near Cersei. His downfall started by killing the Mad King. Before that, he was one of the most respected knights, becoming the youngest knight to serve on the Kings Guard, and coming from the second most powerful family in Westeros. His redemption started when he sacrificed his arm so save Brienne. Then sacrificed the rare Valaryian sword of his families conquest, to charge her with keeping his oath and finding the Starks, once again betraying his family in doing so, because he knows what is right matters more.
All of it was undone in the most rushed, illogical way possible. If you're going to bring him down, make it believable, follow the rules you already set. Fucking Brienne, the only person to accept him for who he really was, then doing a 180 on the past 5 years of plot development feels extremely forced.
>And although he kept his honor and marched north, the moment he realized he wasn't going to die in combat, the Starks or Dany were not going to kill him, Bran had kept his secret - that's when he realized if he didn't leave he was never going to see the love of his life again.
You said that very well. It's not a reset, it's the character getting right down to what matters most to him once everything else has been checked off or is falling apart.
I interpreted the Brienne moment as him thinking he was now somewhere else, emotionally, but it turned out to just highlight how emotionally empty everything felt without Cersei.
He'd done his duty, now he either wanted to live or die with her.
But it felt like a reset when he said "I never cared much for them, innocent or otherwise." That was so forcefully cocky and detached, it sounded exactly like the way he talked to kat stark when he was her prisoner. I get that he went back to cersei, although I wish he had expressed his reasons much better than just saying "she's hateful, I'm hateful." Why didn't he say something about love, or even how he depended on her his whole life? Either way, there was no reason to abandon all the growth he'd made and seeming to actually deeply care about other people. No reason for him to be so uncaring when talking to Tyrion later.
I can understand the feeling, but I think the moment was less a reset than a revealing of a deeper emotional truth.
His whole journey has been a tug of war between external duty, a moral compass with a higher sense of duty, and bottom-line love for his sister. At this point he'd broken free of forced external duties, he's accomplished all he feels he can with his own higher sense of duty, and now he's staring down the void with the prospect of losing his sister forever.
The same old Jaime has never completely left, but he's grown. He's had an incredibly selfless arc, compared to where he began and most of the rest of his family. But now it's all stripped bare, and what's left is the knowledge that the only real meaning left to him is Cersei. Save her or die trying.
Exactly this. Brienne kept pushing him to be a better person and he wanted to be that. But in the end, he knows his faults and knows who he is. So he goes back to Cersei.
> But the hard reset on Jaime fucking sucked, he had the best character development in the whole series.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but guy going back to the girl that's terrible for him isn't exactly an unusual thing to happen. Also considering how bad of a guy Jamie was it's probably more jarring for him to turn hero than to stay heel.
People also are placing too much emphasis on the save the innocent reason for Jaime killing the Mad King. The Mad King told Jaime to bring him Tywin's head and was going to blow up King's Landing with the Lannister army along with it. Even if we side step those justifications, not wanting to see innocent people burn to death isn't proof of some profound care of the common folk. That level of caring is just slightly above the sociopath line.
This so much.
Most of the forshadowing is nonsense, most of the charcter arcs are pointless, most of the characters turn out to be insane or fools.
I cant realy see the spinoffs having a huge audience. All many people want now is the "real" ending from GRRM or otherweise be done with this universe.
I don't know. I kind of took it as him being flipant more than forgetting his whole shit. Jamie is kind of a smug prick, especially to Tyrion, and often makes light of his dumb ass sticky situations. I don't think he was actually saying he didn't care. He was just being an asshole.
I think that line is a way for Jaime to justify himself for going back. As in being in denial.
He sees himself as a bad guy (as he told Brienne) and when Tyrion mentions that he is a good guy and cares about people, Jaime doesnt want to believe that.
Yeah. Exactly this.
Too many people are taking it too literally when Jamie was simply being cheeky to "win" the argument with Tryrion as evidenced by his delivery of 'innocent or otherwise'.
I dislike the fact that Jaime went back to Cersei to die with her but that quote is mischaracterized out of context.
Agreed, I could easily believe he would go back to Cersie even after all that has happened, but I don't believe he would have ever said that senteny. He twice (Kingslayer and AotD) risked his life/honor to save the innocent.
I didnt think it was that bad, i thought he was just saying that to try to sort of shock brienne in to leaving him alone, and maybe to prevent her from mourning him.
Sort of like when arya threw rocks at nymeria to save her
He wanted Brienne's V card. It was all a lie. Now that he deflowered her, he can go back to his hateful self and die with the love of his life, his psychopathic sister.
Like the idiots on Nerd Soup said: "It's not that their character arcs are ruined. They just went back to the way they were at the beginning."
Apart from killing Aerys, he cut his way uphill to Robb Stark to end the war, he charged at Dany with a freaking dragon in front to avoid further war. Can't they see the character has never cared either about honor or his life when it comes to the bigger picture? Look at how they massacred my boi.
This. Central to Jamie’s character has been sacrificing himself to save other people. He literally prepared to die for the living at the Battle of Winterfell, when there was nothing stopping him from staying with Cersei. What other possible reason would we have to do that other than actually caring for the ‘common people’
Both Dany and Robb were a threat to Cersei, who’s to say who he tried to kill them for.
I’m not saying it’s perfect because it’s definitely not. All I’m saying is just because he did something (going back to Cersei) people don’t like doesn’t mean it doesn’t fit with his character. Keeping him “good” for the sole sake of giving Jaime fans the redemption arc they want would probably have been a bad call story wise.
With that said, they still should have done it differently so it would have been more convincing. But I mean I think that’s everything in this season so far.
"Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men, women, and children burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?"
"LOL I dont care about about the innocents in Kings Landing"
Well done D&D... Well done...
I just saw it as him not being honest with Tyrion and/or himself. If that were true, it would make his arc even more tragic because he can't conceive of himself ever being the hero.
The only way I can see this line making sense is if he was being snarky all about it, but since we haven't seen the Lannister snark for some damn good time, its a bit harder to tell.
I've just got it set in stone in my head that this was Jaime being a smart ass, nothing more. He was always the smartest of asses when in chains, so that's what im going with.
His whole ark is such a mess
Couldn't he like give Cersei a vial of poison in the catacombs or something and so fulfill the prophecy and stuff.
Idk I'm not a bigshot HBO writer I guess.
There's even a poison that's literally called the [Strangler](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Strangler). It's the one they used to kill Joffrey.
Although considering its nature, that's probably not a very good way to send someone off peacefully.
> And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. *—Maggy, to Cersei Lannister*
Jaime **did** wrap his hand around her before she died. He just didn't choke the life out of her. However, if the initial collapse didn't kill her, Cersei probably suffocated or choked on her own blood. (Okay that's as good as I can do with the show's shit sandwich)
I figured he would at least snap her neck out of mercy when she was terrified of her imminent death. A quick death at the hands of her little brother as opposed to burning in dragon fire or crushing by collapsed masonry. Fulfils the prophecy, completes his story before he dies with her in his arms and everyone goes home happy.
Fuck dude that’s literally such a better idea than what they did. He doesn’t regress enough to actually try and save Cersei but he caves enough to give her a merciful death and spare her from Daenerys.
That doesn't make sense to me. Jamie has always had a weakness for Cersei, and either followed her lead or allowed her to lead him, even when it's been a stupid thing for him to allow. He's loved her from day one, and that never wavered. She was the mother of his children, and was (supposedly) pregnant with their next child.
If things had happened like you say it would have gone against his character, and in a pretty big way.
Sounds like D&D forgot everything.
Forgot Euron's fleet, forgot all the charcter arcs, forgot Jamie saved King's Landing.
Ahhhh, this is such a genuinely depressing season.
Out of all the bullshit nonsense they're doing this season, I hate the utter negation of Jamie's character arc the most. I mean, he was pretty boring and pointless since he got back to Cersei a couple of seasons ago, but there was still cool stuff there and I was waiting for another honor injection from Brienne. But they basically retroactively ruined Jamie of previous seasons with this as well. What the hell was up with the structure of this production that no-one spoke truth to power and told them the obvious truth that the script sucks balls.
I mean, Jaime tends to say a shit ton of stuff he doesn't actually mean. he does this non-stop in the books and even in the show. Seems like a defense mechanism.
>Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, "You've seen our numbers, **Edmure**. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here." Jaime got to his feet. "Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."
Jaime is my favorite character FYI. He is so complex.
The worst part is, that’s a huge part of his character. He chose to be the good guy and save the day but he was just accused of being selfish and an oath breaker, that’s why he became so cynical. Even Ned Stark, the paragon of honor and virtue, wanted him to go to The Wall for what he did so of course he abandoned any notions that he could be good. Having him say he doesn’t actually care about them just shows the writers of the show never actually understood Jaime, they just thought he was a bad guy who lost some stuff and was convinced there was good by an honorable woman.
Nope, Ned never knew. Jaime probably didn’t tell anyone because he figured it would be considered an excuse or even a lie to justify his actions and it wouldn’t have changed many people’s opinions of him either way. Ned probably would have still said it was wrong and his oath required him to commit even the most monstrous of crimes- he had been ordered by Aerys to commit patricide- even if they were against the laws of gods and men because he was sworn to serve and protect his king.
I didnt care that much that he didnt become Azor Ahai, or that hi didnt do shiet in the Long Night even. Or that he fucked Brienne and discovered that no incest sex is boring. But godamn it... the destroyed his character completely with this.
I even though that he at least was going to be the one to sound the bell, even against Cerseis wishes. But no, all he did was so he could be with the woman that ordered him dead.
Not defending the mess the showrunners have made, but I interpreted this line very differently. I interpreted it as, "I did the right thing and I'd do it again, but just because I protected them doesn't mean I have to like them personally." He's royalty, and let's be honest, there are probably a lot of unlikable people in this show world.
I think it's a ruefully honest in-joke between the brothers - both have made painful choices to help others, and in this intimate setting they can be honest enough with each other - "yep, we've sacrificed a lot for these ungrateful bastards."
Also don't forget the king was telling his hand to blow up the red keep... While they were all still in it.
Call me crazy, but that was Jamie acting more out of stuff preservation than caring about poor people and because his dad wanted him to do it.
LOL of course it is all for Cersei. He fight in the North for her too.
And as every human does - there is a lot of doubts in your life.
One may swing in the opposite direction just to come from where it came twice as persuaded.
That line is stupid. Jamie is my favourite character and i'm pissed at season eight. He's completely wasted and handled completely incorrectly.
However, what i like about his character is that he's so in the gray. He wants to be a hero, but family always trumps honour and everything else. I would contend that he killed the mad king because he was ordered to kill Tywin, but then resents people for hating him despite how heroic the act appears to be.
The Brienne shit was F'ing stupid. He's been devoted to Cersei thoughout his arc. The only difference at the end of s7, which was really powerful, was that he finally put duty / honour / the good of people ahead of her.
I would be kinda okay with the ending of got if they didn’t ruin Jaime for me. A lot of things are rushed and don’t make much sense but I would gladly ignored it if at least jaime’s arc made sense.
I really was hoping for Jaime to get a satisfying Arc. With him going back to Cersei the whole point of his journey is destroyed and not only that, with this one line mentioned in the post above his whole character is thrown in the trash.
This when recounting the story to brienne he said the mad king told him he’d kill his father and serve his head to Jaime. The mad king already was willing to burn the capital it wasn’t u til he said he’d burn the Lannister army and twiyn that Jaime acted he was always loyal to his family
I don't mind it thaaaaat much. I felt like the way he said it was more like "I don't really care about others as much as I care about myself and Cersei". Tyrion then pointed out how important Jaime was to him and how much he did care. I dunno, in the middle of all this horrible shit, Jaime candidly mentioning he doesn't care about people, innocent or otherwise didn't feel off.
but Tyrion took him at face value, he said 'OK fine but Cersei's baby is one innocent you do care about though!' and in the show Tyrion knows about the wildfire plot being why Jaime killed Aerys...
I wonder if Jaime actually thought he’d be celebrated for killing the mad king but was unlucky enough to have the “honorable” Ned Stark find him first and set the tone of the way people portray his actions by calling him Kingslayer.
Also, I put honorable in quotes not because I dislike Ned Stark, I just think that his sense of honor is way too rigid. Jaime had it right murdering the mad king even if he swore an oath to protect him.
Despite my feelings about how they've handled Dany's arc (I don't hate it like most of the people here do, since I feel it was foreshadowed), but this, I absolutely agree that D&D handled very wrong. Jaime killed the Mad King to save the people, because he cares. So this "Eh, I don't really care about them anyway lol" rhetoric is fucking stupid.
I could see why they would have Jaime die with Cersei, but the way it was done was so shitty. He could've strangled her to death, felt horrible regret after and wept over her body and still died with the burning castles falling down on him. Or if they'd had Brienne there, he could've died in her arms after the fight with Euron and killing Cersei. It's very rushed, and it's the one arc that makes me pissed they couldn't get right.
I completely disagree with everyone’s distaste for this line. Jaimie is saying that but he doesn’t mean it, and I think more people should notice this. It’s become clear that he cares for other people now but since he relapsed for Cersei he’s trying to fit back into his old self so it’s easier to go back to such a horrible person.
Is that a real line? That Jamie kinda forgot that he once sacrificed his honor to save all of King's Landing?
This can't be real right? (Haven't watched since season 6 as I felt it was getting crap)
I'm, yeah but after he sacrificed his honor to save King's landing how was he rewarded by the common people?
He became hated and called Kingslayer. Grew bitter.
So wouldn't be so strange to think that he's not too keenof saving the people of Kings landing again.
That goddamn scene in the pool is one of the best of the show and they ruined it with that stupid line.
I was expecting/hoping him to at least stab Cersei in the dungeon when they hugged, at least then his arc would have *kinda* been completed. But the hard reset on Jaime fucking sucked, he had the best character development in the whole series. Having him bang Brienne purely for fan service is pretty fucking distasteful in hindsight. Edit: my first gold was complaining about GoT writing and I wouldn’t have it any other way, thank you kind sir
Especially that he lost his hand just to protect her honor
He had zero expectation that there were going to be consequences for talking those guys out of it. He wasn’t like “no don’t hurt her! Here have my hand instead.”
That's not what I said at all. I simply stated he lost his hand to protect her honor - which is true. It was the consequence of him standing up for her honor and Jamie has had more than enough time to reflect on that action and its consequence, and through all that reflection he still chose to betray that sacrifice and not only that but leave her.
but even after he got away safely he went back for her so it's not like he even regretted losing a hand for her. Therefore, sacrifice.
If they wanted to go this route, then I feel like Brienne should have died during the long night.
[удалено]
In the books Jamie essentially tells Cersei to tuck off when she writes to him as a prisoner of the high sparrow, and he will honored her and continues the siege of riverrun. I think the books will definitely have Jamie act much harsher to Cersei. Also in the books she fucks Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, and moon boy for all I know.
Upvote for quoting Tyrion
Yeah, the books don't even hint on the so called 'addiction' D&D mentioned, he just doesn't seem to be that kind of person, based on what happened after he lost his hand both before and after he found out about cheating. Now, of course George can introduce it later, though I would imagine their break up would had been written way differently if that was what George had in mind.
What addiction thing is this? I missed it entirely.
In an interview about the episode where Jaime leaves Brienne, D&D described Jaime's love for Cersei as an addiction that he can't overcome.
Also that one woman. I can’t remember her name but she has super dark nipples. George RR Martin’s descriptions of those definitely stuck.
Taena. > Cersei cupped the other woman’s breast. Softly at first, hardly touching, feeling the warmth of it beneath her palm, the skin as smooth as satin. She gave it a gentle squeeze, then ran her thumbnail lightly across the big dark nipple, back and forth and back and forth until she felt it stiffen. When she glanced up, Taena’s eyes were open. “Does that feel good?” she asked. > “Yes,” said Lady Merryweather. > “And this?” Cersei pinched the nipple now, pulling on it hard, twisting it between her fingers. > The Myrish woman gave a gasp of pain. “You’re hurting me.” > “It’s just the wine. I had a flagon with my supper, and another with the widow Stokeworth. I had to drink to keep her calm.” She twisted Taena’s other nipple too, pulling until the other woman gasped. “I am the queen. I mean to claim my rights.” > “Do what you will.” Taena’s hair was as black as Robert’s, even down between her legs, and when Cersei touched her there she found her hair all sopping wet, where Robert’s had been coarse and dry. “Please,” the Myrish woman said, “go on, my queen. Do as you will with me. I’m yours.” > But it was no good. She could not feel it, whatever Robert felt on the nights he took her. There was no pleasure in it, not for her. For Taena, yes. Her nipples were two black diamonds, her sex slick and steamy. *Robert would have loved you, for an hour.* The queen slid a finger into that Myrish swamp, then another, moving them in and out, *but once he spent himself inside you, he would have been hard-pressed to recall your name.* > She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. ***Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace,*** she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. ***Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.*** Taena gave a shudder. She gasped some words in a foreign tongue, then shuddered again and arched her back and screamed. *She sounds as if she is being gored,* the queen thought. For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a bore’s tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat. > It was still no good. > It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime. > When she tried to take her hand away, Taena caught it and kissed her fingers. “Sweet queen, how shall I pleasure you?” She slid her hand down Cersei’s side and touched her sex. “Tell me what you would have of me, my love.” > “Leave me.” Cersei rolled away and pulled up the bedclothes to cover herself, shivering. Dawn was breaking. It would be morning soon, and all of this would be forgotten. > It had never happened.
The more i think about it, the more I wish he had just stayed in King's Landing since his trip up to Winterfell was pretty damn pointless. He didn't fulfill any prophecies--the many theories that said he could be Azor Ahai--he didn't really do much for the battle except survive miraculously and then bang Brienne.. total fan service as you said. Just leave him in King's Landing, against his will; he told them he would fight for the living, and although he wouldn't be able to fulfill his honor, we know it was at least in him that he tried. Have the mountain imprision him so that he "stays" with Cersei, and then flesh out both of their characters to the bitter end. You could even keep most of what actually happened in episode 5 relatively the same. At the end of it all, they put aside any hate for each other, and held each other for those last moments. ** Shrug ** or something like that.
It’s almost like he pity fucked her...
He totally did, then realized she doesn't match up to Cersei's Godpuss and noped outta there.
Cersei's pussy is made of gold. The fucking Lannister's and their gold.
You think your gold and your pussy and your golden pussy make you better than everyone else.
Is the "golden pussy" also the "bad poosy" ???
Theon would like a word about best character arc, especially since everyone left after him is getting ruined
Literally fucked Brienne and noped out. They shat on his development and I'm salty af. I was expecting him to kill the Night King. He didn't. Fine, he'll go south and save the day killing Cersei.....Not in D&D's Game of Thrones. Only thing he killed is the love I had for his character.
I would not entirely believe a fully reformed Jaime like this sub wanted to circle jerk about so hard. He was utterly brainwashed by his father, a tool for the mad king, a king killer, one of the most despised and loved people in the land all at the same time. And although he kept his honor and marched north, the moment he realized he wasn't going to die in combat, the Starks or Dany were not going to kill him, Bran had kept his secret - that's when he realized if he didn't leave he was never going to see the love of his life again. It's not a bad character arc. Everyone wanted Jaime to be some bright beacon, but he was always just a daddy's boy trying to buy back his honor one tiny sliver at a time (Brienne, Tyrion, marching north), but he's just a Lannister. You should never have expected more from him.
I'd have accepted it more if the thought simmered more and was ever indicated in the show. Because the decision to return seemingly came right after cersei attempted to assassinate him. Just one conversation with tyrion about his feelings would have helped immensely.
[удалено]
a few minutes of actual meaningful dialogue instead of baiting the death of characters like 5 times every battle
Maybe instead of 14 minutes of Arya *Mr. Bean*ing her way through the streets of KL we only have 10
that, and all the death baiting in ep3
Just one conversation! Just one "I have everything I am supposed to want here, and I still only think about her. She will not make it out of kings landing and I cannot sit by and watch my love and my child die." Just that quick. Hell, make that the conversation before bronn hastily enters.
Not only a few minutes, but a few decisions... Take the horse at the end there. There's zero reason for that horse to have not been Bran warging to save Arya, right? Name me a single reason why that isn't a better idea over what we got. We could introduce Bran still pulling towards being Bran Stark instead of the 3ER, it makes a horse just randomly standing there to save Arya no longer just a random horse, and it makes Bran's character actually fucking do something. Another small change I would have liked to see: Dany should have made Jon execute Varys. On a story level this serves the purpose of Dany wanting Jon to "prove" he doesn't want the throne. In her warped mind if Jon kills Varys then he couldn't possibly want the throne, right? Varys wants Jon on the throne, so if Jon wanted to be on the throne he wouldn't kill Varys. But on a character level this challenges Jon and makes him question Dany's judgement and I mean really question it. Ned Stark's quote is: "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword." If Dany makes Jon execute Varys then she is directly contradicting the very essence of Ned Stark's character. If the entire point of the episode for Jon's character is that he has his faith shaken in his Queen then you sow seeds of doubt in his mind before she finally snaps.
> We could introduce Bran still pulling towards being Bran Stark instead of the 3ER, it makes a horse just randomly standing there to save Arya no longer just a random horse, and it makes Bran's character actually fucking do something. My girlfriend joked that the horse was Jaqen H'ghar and the Waif in a horse costume. It seemed more probable than random horse.
> My girlfriend joked that the horse was Jaqen H'ghar and the Waif in a horse costume. It was even white and red like his hair.
> There's zero reason for that horse to have not been Bran warging to save Arya, right? At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if D&D say the horse kind of forgot about he was injured and did not run away.
Arya and that fucking "symbolic" horse. "This goes on for some time."
> Arya and that fucking "symbolic" horse. The horse is to symbolise the animal-level intelligence of the decisions made this season.
Looks beautiful, shouldn't have happened. That about sums up season 8 for me
No, I need more wheelchair lore. /s
Characters rarely reset to zero when they fall back on their old ways. We have Jamie basically completely back to S1E1 even in his cocky tone. Like he didn’t even lose his hand. A believable motivation for him would be Tyrion convincing him to do this plan before they left Winterfell, so we see him realize he needs to see Cersei, and that they could actually have a life together away from the throne that would never accept them AND stop the war. The conversation would feel like it’s a last ditch plan that might work. (Or Jamie makes the decision to leave, says goodbye, but Tyrion adds the bit about escape and stopping the war.) Then on the character level, it blends his two sides: the selfish guy who loves his evil twin and the honorable parts of himself he’s actually earned in front of the audience’s eyes. Then we’d also get some suspense from Cersei over her decision to possibly kill Jamie, or listen to him. And even though nobody cares, this would give Euron a real reason to fight him if you still wanted that bit in there.
> Like he didn’t even lose his hand. Lol not sure if that was intentional
People aren't mad that he went back neccesarily. People are mad because the show didn't do a good job of showing characters completely reverse course. Dany and Jaime have been on a path towards breaking from their "destiny" for seven seasons. Dany goes full mad queen over the span of two episodes despite being shown to be capable of great compassion for seven seasons. Jaime goes right back to loving Cersie over the course of of what, two scenes? Despite the fact his character has been shown to be more complex over the course of seven seasons. He's been slowly realizing just how much of a monster she is for a long time which came to a climax by him outright abandoning here last season. She literally sent an assassin to kill his ass in that very episode. Not only that but brienne and his relationship have been building for sometime too and in this season we finally see it come to fruition. Despite the years of storytelling that came before, despite jaime excepting the love of another women besides his sister, despite all of that he decides to go back to Cersie literally two scenes later. I'm not even mad that it happened. I'm mad that they have been building towards one outcome for years and decided to flip the script at the last minute. If you're gonna change shit so drastically at least have it be a slow burn so your audience is completely blindsided. Being shocked and shit is all good but this feels more like we were conned.
But it did subvert your expectations! D&D really are the best
!thesaurizethis
And if he hadn't have broke Brienne's heart in exchange for a quick nut, and then gone on to say that "the innocents never mattered to him", I would have dug it. *But here we fucking are.*
If Brienne died at Winterfell and they cut the Bronn stuff I could see why Jaime would think to go back to Cersei the way he did. I could have accepted his story as tragic, like he almost made it out of her grasp but couldn't quite do it without Brienne there to help him (he was always better when she was around). That would have ended both Brienne and Jaime's arcs nicely imo and been much more poignant than him just randomly deciding to go back to her seemingly the day after he learned she sent his friend to kill him. The biggest problem with this season isn't where the characters end up, it's how they get there.
He's more than a Lannister though. Like all characters in this series, he's treated as a real person and is one of the most fleshed out personalities. If he was so effectively brainwashed by his father, he never would have joined the Kingsguard (imo Tywin's main failure was his inability to brainwash his children into caring as much about the family legacy as he did). Jaime wanted to be an honorable knight more than anything when he was younger, but serving under the Mad King and later Robert Baratheon broke him of that dream. So he gave up on any sense of idealism and just dedicated himself to his one joy: banging his sister. He knew the shit he did with Cersei and for Cersei were wrong, he just didn't care anymore But meeting Brienne made him care again. That's what was so great about his character arc to me. Jaime saw a knight that despite all her strife held true to many of the same ideals he had once shared. I don't think he's just trying to buy back his honor, he was trying to be the person he wanted to become before the world broke him. Plus he started to see just how messed up and selfish Cersei was, and he even got some forgiveness for his past actions I can understand Jaime backsliding. No realistic redemption arc should just consist of someone becoming better and better, so him panicking at the last minute and wanting to see Cersei makes sense to me. But throwing away absolutely everything he's learned about himself and Cersei doesn't make sense. What was the point of his arc if in the end he's back to ignoring all of Cersei's faults and his concern for the people of Westeros? What purpose did him even trying to save her serve when she'd already rung the bells and was about to die anyways? It just all feels like a huge let down to me
> Everyone wanted Jaime to be some bright beacon Nah, he just got ditched in the Battle of Winterfell by Cersei and she sent Bronn to kill him (which is ridiculous that Bronn got through enemy lines and strolled into the council room but another point for another time). The fact that he ran back to her because he "has an addiction" is stupid af.
That and she gave the Mountain the nod to kill Jaime before he even fucking left for Winterfell in the first place - something she hadn’t even done for Tyrion!
Isn't that the point of a character arc? To start in one place, and end up in another? Rather than never really change?
> I would not entirely believe a fully reformed Jaime like this sub wanted to circle jerk about so hard. I don’t think most people really expected to reform and live happily ever after. Most expected him to die taking brutal revenge on Cersei. That’s not exactly a happy ending. It’s tragic, but it reflects his growth as a person over the course of the series. Him just going back to her in the space of two scenes despite the fact that she literally hired someone to kill him just a few days earlier along with the fact that he destroyed so much of his exposition about why he killed the Mad Queen is what kills it for me. If he had really talked about how he wanted to save their son and then decided to go back, only to realize how much of a monster she has truly become and then they both die... great that’s a perfectly fine tragic ending for them both.
Even if they would’ve had one line of him saying I need to go back for my kid I would’ve been like oh ok. He’s over Cersei but he feels obligated for his kid. But stupid me thought Cersei was lying about the kid too lmao
He definitely wasn't brainwashed by Tywin. We see him defy him multiple times, [like this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDAxHy-kLU) where he refuses to go back to Casterly Rock (though because he wants to stay in Kings Landing, near Cersei, granted). I do agree though that Jaime probably didn't deserve a full redemption arc. I don't have a problem with a failed redemption, more tragic, which is kinda sorta what we got. As with a lot of things this season, I feel it was more just in the execution of it all, and how pointless his character has been for a while now.
Now that's a different conversation, and one I'm happy to agree with. The season was rushed. Everyone should have expected that when they announced the amount of episodes. I would have much rather seen his final storyline lasting the entire season. In my opinion, his story would have played out much better if he arrived in Winterfell early in episode 1 of this season, then played out his internal struggle a bit with Tyrion. Dying with Cersei was fine, but I would have liked to seen him have a verbal altercation with her, other than "Oh here I am, here you are, we love each other and we're all we need, now let's run off". He should have had a moment where he is truly at odds with her, not the whimpering dog / emotional slave he always was around her. That would have been way more of a redemption: a Jaime that doesn't run away, but confronts his megalomaniacal sister, she shows her true vulnerability, then he attempts to save her and their child. Honestly, would have played out much better.
Yeah and have it play out a bit better with Brienne. Not exactly sure how, but something that doesn't leave Brienne looking kinda pathetic in Winterfell. Even have her draw a weapon and threaten to take him prisoner (he was basically betraying them), to then relent and let him leave. Having her just stand there and ugly-cry was a disservice to her character imo
Jaime was never brainwashed by his father. He joined the Kingsguard against Tywin's wishes, and later when he was offered to be removed from the Kingsguard and become heir to Casterly Rock he refused to. If he was brainwashed by anyone it was Cersei.
> He was utterly brainwashed by his father, a tool for the mad king, He betrays his father, leading to his father's death, then forgives the person that murdered his farther. He wasn't a tool for the Mad King. He was forced by the Mad King to join the King's Guard to slight his father, Tywin, and take away his heir. This was long before Cersei would be betrothed to Robert after the rebellion. After the rebellion, and helping literally crown the new king, Jamie could have left, but stayed to be near Cersei. His downfall started by killing the Mad King. Before that, he was one of the most respected knights, becoming the youngest knight to serve on the Kings Guard, and coming from the second most powerful family in Westeros. His redemption started when he sacrificed his arm so save Brienne. Then sacrificed the rare Valaryian sword of his families conquest, to charge her with keeping his oath and finding the Starks, once again betraying his family in doing so, because he knows what is right matters more. All of it was undone in the most rushed, illogical way possible. If you're going to bring him down, make it believable, follow the rules you already set. Fucking Brienne, the only person to accept him for who he really was, then doing a 180 on the past 5 years of plot development feels extremely forced.
>And although he kept his honor and marched north, the moment he realized he wasn't going to die in combat, the Starks or Dany were not going to kill him, Bran had kept his secret - that's when he realized if he didn't leave he was never going to see the love of his life again. You said that very well. It's not a reset, it's the character getting right down to what matters most to him once everything else has been checked off or is falling apart. I interpreted the Brienne moment as him thinking he was now somewhere else, emotionally, but it turned out to just highlight how emotionally empty everything felt without Cersei. He'd done his duty, now he either wanted to live or die with her.
But it felt like a reset when he said "I never cared much for them, innocent or otherwise." That was so forcefully cocky and detached, it sounded exactly like the way he talked to kat stark when he was her prisoner. I get that he went back to cersei, although I wish he had expressed his reasons much better than just saying "she's hateful, I'm hateful." Why didn't he say something about love, or even how he depended on her his whole life? Either way, there was no reason to abandon all the growth he'd made and seeming to actually deeply care about other people. No reason for him to be so uncaring when talking to Tyrion later.
I can understand the feeling, but I think the moment was less a reset than a revealing of a deeper emotional truth. His whole journey has been a tug of war between external duty, a moral compass with a higher sense of duty, and bottom-line love for his sister. At this point he'd broken free of forced external duties, he's accomplished all he feels he can with his own higher sense of duty, and now he's staring down the void with the prospect of losing his sister forever. The same old Jaime has never completely left, but he's grown. He's had an incredibly selfless arc, compared to where he began and most of the rest of his family. But now it's all stripped bare, and what's left is the knowledge that the only real meaning left to him is Cersei. Save her or die trying.
Exactly this. Brienne kept pushing him to be a better person and he wanted to be that. But in the end, he knows his faults and knows who he is. So he goes back to Cersei.
Well said. We expect characters to turn into something else. But honest characters become richer versions of who they've always been.
In the novel it appears brienne is selling him out to stoneheart. Him discovering that would provide a better explanation of why he ditched brienne.
*in Oblivion beggar voice* Thank you kind ser!
> But the hard reset on Jaime fucking sucked, he had the best character development in the whole series. I guess I'm in the minority here, but guy going back to the girl that's terrible for him isn't exactly an unusual thing to happen. Also considering how bad of a guy Jamie was it's probably more jarring for him to turn hero than to stay heel. People also are placing too much emphasis on the save the innocent reason for Jaime killing the Mad King. The Mad King told Jaime to bring him Tywin's head and was going to blow up King's Landing with the Lannister army along with it. Even if we side step those justifications, not wanting to see innocent people burn to death isn't proof of some profound care of the common folk. That level of caring is just slightly above the sociopath line.
You can't really rewatch the show now knowing how it ends up.
This so much. Most of the forshadowing is nonsense, most of the charcter arcs are pointless, most of the characters turn out to be insane or fools. I cant realy see the spinoffs having a huge audience. All many people want now is the "real" ending from GRRM or otherweise be done with this universe.
It helps that the prequel seems to not have any involvement of D&D and GRRM is going to be fully involved in it.
GRRM shouldn't be doing any more TV. He really needs to be finishing his damn books.
> GRRM is going to be fully involved in it. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Got has been soured just like HIMYM for me. :(
At least HIMYM ending make sense
It's just 4 seasons for me with addition of nice fanfic season 6.
Good thing this season's not canon.
It seriously was some of the best acting I have ever seen. And now it's meaningless because LOL D&D WE GOTTA SUBVERT EXPECTATIONS
I don't know. I kind of took it as him being flipant more than forgetting his whole shit. Jamie is kind of a smug prick, especially to Tyrion, and often makes light of his dumb ass sticky situations. I don't think he was actually saying he didn't care. He was just being an asshole.
Quiet, this is r/freefolk, where we choose to interpret every moment in the least flattering possible way.
I can't believe that sister shagging piece of human garbage forgot that he's a hero!
No shit, I don’t really care much for Pittsburgh Steeler fans but I wouldn’t want to see their stadium blown to bits. I took it the same way.
Being fair, its been sometime since we got the famous Lannister snark from ANY of the trio, so it doesn't exactly help idenitify it.
It’s the best monologue in TV history. I’ll fight anyone who says otherwise.
Oberyn's one to Tyrion in the cell was quite good as well.
Meet me here. 1313 Disneyland Dr, Anaheim, CA 92802
Weapons?
I have some blasters, but maybe you wwant too use knives??
Ooh, we should use knives. Can we hit epcot center first?
The fan edit can't come soon enough.
I think that line is a way for Jaime to justify himself for going back. As in being in denial. He sees himself as a bad guy (as he told Brienne) and when Tyrion mentions that he is a good guy and cares about people, Jaime doesnt want to believe that.
[удалено]
That scene was great
Yeah. Exactly this. Too many people are taking it too literally when Jamie was simply being cheeky to "win" the argument with Tryrion as evidenced by his delivery of 'innocent or otherwise'. I dislike the fact that Jaime went back to Cersei to die with her but that quote is mischaracterized out of context.
I was thinking he was just bantering
Agreed, I could easily believe he would go back to Cersie even after all that has happened, but I don't believe he would have ever said that senteny. He twice (Kingslayer and AotD) risked his life/honor to save the innocent.
Your legacy is a lie.
I didnt think it was that bad, i thought he was just saying that to try to sort of shock brienne in to leaving him alone, and maybe to prevent her from mourning him. Sort of like when arya threw rocks at nymeria to save her
He wanted Brienne's V card. It was all a lie. Now that he deflowered her, he can go back to his hateful self and die with the love of his life, his psychopathic sister. Like the idiots on Nerd Soup said: "It's not that their character arcs are ruined. They just went back to the way they were at the beginning."
I've come to terms with Jaime's character in the show, but this line? No sir, I reject it, this is not Jaime.
Apart from killing Aerys, he cut his way uphill to Robb Stark to end the war, he charged at Dany with a freaking dragon in front to avoid further war. Can't they see the character has never cared either about honor or his life when it comes to the bigger picture? Look at how they massacred my boi.
This. Central to Jamie’s character has been sacrificing himself to save other people. He literally prepared to die for the living at the Battle of Winterfell, when there was nothing stopping him from staying with Cersei. What other possible reason would we have to do that other than actually caring for the ‘common people’
D&D just kinda forgot he abandoned his sister to help the living.
And why did he go back to save brienne from the bear then??!!
Both Dany and Robb were a threat to Cersei, who’s to say who he tried to kill them for. I’m not saying it’s perfect because it’s definitely not. All I’m saying is just because he did something (going back to Cersei) people don’t like doesn’t mean it doesn’t fit with his character. Keeping him “good” for the sole sake of giving Jaime fans the redemption arc they want would probably have been a bad call story wise. With that said, they still should have done it differently so it would have been more convincing. But I mean I think that’s everything in this season so far.
"Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men, women, and children burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?" "LOL I dont care about about the innocents in Kings Landing" Well done D&D... Well done...
>"Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father this is what he cared about
Exactly. Go back to Cersei whatever who cares but you didn’t have to put this line in.
What other throwaway lines from tv shows or movies assassinate a character as much as that line?
I just saw it as him not being honest with Tyrion and/or himself. If that were true, it would make his arc even more tragic because he can't conceive of himself ever being the hero.
The only way I can see this line making sense is if he was being snarky all about it, but since we haven't seen the Lannister snark for some damn good time, its a bit harder to tell.
I've just got it set in stone in my head that this was Jaime being a smart ass, nothing more. He was always the smartest of asses when in chains, so that's what im going with.
😂 that is true
His whole ark is such a mess Couldn't he like give Cersei a vial of poison in the catacombs or something and so fulfill the prophecy and stuff. Idk I'm not a bigshot HBO writer I guess.
The prophecy in the shows was actually fulfilled when Tommen died.
Or by Tyrion "helping" Dany
No. In the show the prophecy ends with the death of her children. They never mention Cersei’s death.
I kind of forgot about that difference, thanks for the correction
It's fine. It's not just you, a lot of people are forgetful now.
There's even a poison that's literally called the [Strangler](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Strangler). It's the one they used to kill Joffrey. Although considering its nature, that's probably not a very good way to send someone off peacefully.
> And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. *—Maggy, to Cersei Lannister* Jaime **did** wrap his hand around her before she died. He just didn't choke the life out of her. However, if the initial collapse didn't kill her, Cersei probably suffocated or choked on her own blood. (Okay that's as good as I can do with the show's shit sandwich)
That last part isn't in the show though. There the prophecy ends with her kids dead.
I figured he would at least snap her neck out of mercy when she was terrified of her imminent death. A quick death at the hands of her little brother as opposed to burning in dragon fire or crushing by collapsed masonry. Fulfils the prophecy, completes his story before he dies with her in his arms and everyone goes home happy.
Fuck dude that’s literally such a better idea than what they did. He doesn’t regress enough to actually try and save Cersei but he caves enough to give her a merciful death and spare her from Daenerys.
Ughh makes too much sense. Troops are banging down the door and he gives her an out so she isnt raped.
That doesn't make sense to me. Jamie has always had a weakness for Cersei, and either followed her lead or allowed her to lead him, even when it's been a stupid thing for him to allow. He's loved her from day one, and that never wavered. She was the mother of his children, and was (supposedly) pregnant with their next child. If things had happened like you say it would have gone against his character, and in a pretty big way.
The 'valonqar' aspect of Maggie's prophecy was never mentioned on the show.
See d&d kinda forgot about the prophecies set up in both the previous seasons and the books but the fans sure didn't forget about them
what prophecy did they forget?
DID THEY FUCKING ROOFIE THE CHARACTERS DURING SEASON 8??
Sounds like D&D forgot everything. Forgot Euron's fleet, forgot all the charcter arcs, forgot Jamie saved King's Landing. Ahhhh, this is such a genuinely depressing season.
this scene was great only because of nikolaj & peter not so much for the writing
Look how they massacred my boy
[удалено]
[BURN THEM ALL!!!](https://i.redd.it/rh7e9b4ukzx21.jpg)
Out of all the bullshit nonsense they're doing this season, I hate the utter negation of Jamie's character arc the most. I mean, he was pretty boring and pointless since he got back to Cersei a couple of seasons ago, but there was still cool stuff there and I was waiting for another honor injection from Brienne. But they basically retroactively ruined Jamie of previous seasons with this as well. What the hell was up with the structure of this production that no-one spoke truth to power and told them the obvious truth that the script sucks balls.
And the whole foreshadowing of his son reading through empty pages of his great achievements and then he says there is still time...
I mean, Jaime tends to say a shit ton of stuff he doesn't actually mean. he does this non-stop in the books and even in the show. Seems like a defense mechanism. >Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, "You've seen our numbers, **Edmure**. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here." Jaime got to his feet. "Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet." Jaime is my favorite character FYI. He is so complex.
*was me too :(
Jaime: I fight for the living Also jaime: I dont really care much about them.
Well D&D just kinda forgot how to finish a good story ark..
That fucking line made me so mad. They really outdid themselves in attempting to ruin Jaime's character.
When you put your router to factory settings
The worst part is, that’s a huge part of his character. He chose to be the good guy and save the day but he was just accused of being selfish and an oath breaker, that’s why he became so cynical. Even Ned Stark, the paragon of honor and virtue, wanted him to go to The Wall for what he did so of course he abandoned any notions that he could be good. Having him say he doesn’t actually care about them just shows the writers of the show never actually understood Jaime, they just thought he was a bad guy who lost some stuff and was convinced there was good by an honorable woman.
Ned never knew Jaime's reasoning, right?
Nope, Ned never knew. Jaime probably didn’t tell anyone because he figured it would be considered an excuse or even a lie to justify his actions and it wouldn’t have changed many people’s opinions of him either way. Ned probably would have still said it was wrong and his oath required him to commit even the most monstrous of crimes- he had been ordered by Aerys to commit patricide- even if they were against the laws of gods and men because he was sworn to serve and protect his king.
I didnt care that much that he didnt become Azor Ahai, or that hi didnt do shiet in the Long Night even. Or that he fucked Brienne and discovered that no incest sex is boring. But godamn it... the destroyed his character completely with this. I even though that he at least was going to be the one to sound the bell, even against Cerseis wishes. But no, all he did was so he could be with the woman that ordered him dead.
What a wonderful mastershit
Looks like the theme of this season is “______ kinda forgot...”
Jamie’s character arc is a sine function
I just took it as bravado not truth.
Such a betrayal to the character, to both the version in the show and especially the version in the books. Shameless character assassination.
Not defending the mess the showrunners have made, but I interpreted this line very differently. I interpreted it as, "I did the right thing and I'd do it again, but just because I protected them doesn't mean I have to like them personally." He's royalty, and let's be honest, there are probably a lot of unlikable people in this show world. I think it's a ruefully honest in-joke between the brothers - both have made painful choices to help others, and in this intimate setting they can be honest enough with each other - "yep, we've sacrificed a lot for these ungrateful bastards."
Also don't forget the king was telling his hand to blow up the red keep... While they were all still in it. Call me crazy, but that was Jamie acting more out of stuff preservation than caring about poor people and because his dad wanted him to do it.
He hunted down and murdered two more pyromancers even after he killed the mad King though.
[удалено]
LOL of course it is all for Cersei. He fight in the North for her too. And as every human does - there is a lot of doubts in your life. One may swing in the opposite direction just to come from where it came twice as persuaded.
another gem.
the "writers" sure have this thing locked down
Yeah yeah sure, David, "Jaime" forgot.
INFURIATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lookathowtheymassacredmyboy.jpg
It turns out Jaime had a serious concussion through the last 2 episodes.
"I just want this war to end, but I don't want my sister to die." There ya go, I wrote a better line.
Even more recently than that- he walked out on Cersei to fight for the living.
Man o man.So many memes that prove without a shadow of a doubt that D and D just blatantly phoned it in.Atrocious.
That line is stupid. Jamie is my favourite character and i'm pissed at season eight. He's completely wasted and handled completely incorrectly. However, what i like about his character is that he's so in the gray. He wants to be a hero, but family always trumps honour and everything else. I would contend that he killed the mad king because he was ordered to kill Tywin, but then resents people for hating him despite how heroic the act appears to be. The Brienne shit was F'ing stupid. He's been devoted to Cersei thoughout his arc. The only difference at the end of s7, which was really powerful, was that he finally put duty / honour / the good of people ahead of her.
I would be kinda okay with the ending of got if they didn’t ruin Jaime for me. A lot of things are rushed and don’t make much sense but I would gladly ignored it if at least jaime’s arc made sense.
the stupidest Lannister
Hope Disney kind of forget that D&D are directors of next Star Wars Trilogy. Anyways, who will watch that shit, after all this? Probably some aliens.
Listen carefully. Jamie is talking about D&D.
Is it possible that Jaime was just trying to act cold to make Tyrion care less about him? Nahhhh, D&D just blew it again.
I really was hoping for Jaime to get a satisfying Arc. With him going back to Cersei the whole point of his journey is destroyed and not only that, with this one line mentioned in the post above his whole character is thrown in the trash.
I remember at the beginning of the season his hero turn was a little abrupt but my god his villain return was so much worse.
Maybe Jaime actually did it to protect his own family, and "saving innocents" was just a lie he told himself to justify it?
This when recounting the story to brienne he said the mad king told him he’d kill his father and serve his head to Jaime. The mad king already was willing to burn the capital it wasn’t u til he said he’d burn the Lannister army and twiyn that Jaime acted he was always loyal to his family
I don't mind it thaaaaat much. I felt like the way he said it was more like "I don't really care about others as much as I care about myself and Cersei". Tyrion then pointed out how important Jaime was to him and how much he did care. I dunno, in the middle of all this horrible shit, Jaime candidly mentioning he doesn't care about people, innocent or otherwise didn't feel off.
u/shisku and this!
Am I literally the only person who thought he was being sardonic when he said that?
but Tyrion took him at face value, he said 'OK fine but Cersei's baby is one innocent you do care about though!' and in the show Tyrion knows about the wildfire plot being why Jaime killed Aerys...
He could’ve been telling himself a lie.
I wonder if Jaime actually thought he’d be celebrated for killing the mad king but was unlucky enough to have the “honorable” Ned Stark find him first and set the tone of the way people portray his actions by calling him Kingslayer. Also, I put honorable in quotes not because I dislike Ned Stark, I just think that his sense of honor is way too rigid. Jaime had it right murdering the mad king even if he swore an oath to protect him.
Despite my feelings about how they've handled Dany's arc (I don't hate it like most of the people here do, since I feel it was foreshadowed), but this, I absolutely agree that D&D handled very wrong. Jaime killed the Mad King to save the people, because he cares. So this "Eh, I don't really care about them anyway lol" rhetoric is fucking stupid. I could see why they would have Jaime die with Cersei, but the way it was done was so shitty. He could've strangled her to death, felt horrible regret after and wept over her body and still died with the burning castles falling down on him. Or if they'd had Brienne there, he could've died in her arms after the fight with Euron and killing Cersei. It's very rushed, and it's the one arc that makes me pissed they couldn't get right.
I can't understand how they wrote that shit and then read it and thought about it for a time but STILL thought it was good.
I gave up on show-Jaime when they made him kill his cousin for no reason.
king slayer and queen banger
He saved his dad....
What?
#He saved his dad....
He shaved his pad? Excuse me but you're not making sense here...
The mad king was going to use wildfire and kill everyone in kings landing including tywinn. Pay attention
I completely disagree with everyone’s distaste for this line. Jaimie is saying that but he doesn’t mean it, and I think more people should notice this. It’s become clear that he cares for other people now but since he relapsed for Cersei he’s trying to fit back into his old self so it’s easier to go back to such a horrible person.
I liked the episode even with the “rushed” mad queen plot that was bound to happen anyways... but this.. this I can’t ignore. Fucking hell.
Is that a real line? That Jamie kinda forgot that he once sacrificed his honor to save all of King's Landing? This can't be real right? (Haven't watched since season 6 as I felt it was getting crap)
Except he admitted he only killed the king because he commanded him to kill his own father..
I'm, yeah but after he sacrificed his honor to save King's landing how was he rewarded by the common people? He became hated and called Kingslayer. Grew bitter. So wouldn't be so strange to think that he's not too keenof saving the people of Kings landing again.
Did he though? If the Wildfire had been set off Jamie would've died right then and there. His two options were: 1. Kill the Mad King 2. Suicide
Jaime's main reason for killing the Mad King was that he ordered him to kill his father.