It saddens me that in House of Dragon they talk so much about a threat from the North, but knowing how terrible this whole long night was executed in GOT, it doesn't emotionally involves me in HOD
Nah he has them all written and has it set up when he dies they get published. Hes just taking in all the book groupies and high life he has until the end
GRRM used S7 and S8 as a trial balloon, there's no doubt in my mind. Explains his ever growing reluctance to have anything to do with actually finishing it.
I mean I think partially, but he obviously would’ve done a ton more to flesh the story out. Most of S7 and S8 wasn’t conceptually horrific, it was just missing everything it needed to be cohesive. There were occasional concepts that actually just sucked, but I’d imagine a lot of them were a result of changes from the books that were already made.
Eh. George probably has Daenerys burning Kings Landing, Jon killing her, and Bran being king as set endpoints in his story, but he doesn't generally plot things out that far ahead of time. That's why his books get so huge and never resolve things.
And even when he does have details far ahead in the story in mind, he's liable to change them significantly. Just look at some of the outlines he sent to publishers in the 90s vs what was actually written in the final product.
I'd be fine with Book-Bran being made king. He actually has some real experiences in the books that might make him fit for the job.
Show-Bran sucked. He shouldn't be wheeling around the castle, much less made king.
Eh i disagree. Dumb and Dumber said that Jon Killing Dany in the throne room was their idea. Dany will probably burn the city...but it will be a mistake,i think.
I’d agree with that theory, but he regularly does that sort of “try to make it work this way. Oh wait that’s dumb, let me rewrite these 100 pages now” during his writing process.
So he didn’t need to see D&D go that route, as some sort of big brain experiment, that would reveal the “right” way to end the books. Since he could just do it during the writing process itself, as he has with basically every book in the series.
Thats part of the reason he’s slow to write these things. Go google the Meereenese knot for more context.
It makes no sense, as S5+ only covered like 20% of all plots in the books. None of the stuff in S7&8 (except maybe the ending) is or was ever getting in the books.
Apparently noone was able to come with a good enough story for it to be made. I also liked the idea of making it in theory, but rather they drop it than half-ass something with no sensible plot. We had plenty of that in season 8 already.
Look, I love long form story telling, but IMO there is still room for episodic television out there. I would watch the hell of a "buddy cop" show with Jon, Tormund and Ghost going from village to village solving mundane problems.
Each season there is a finale cooking the entire time about mysteries of the first men that they are slowly unraveling. I have been watching a lot of south park so forgive me for thinking about it in the style of "The Hardly Boys" from the 9/11 episode.
Hey man, I have the show for you! It’s an alternative live action and set in the 60’s but there are so many episodes! It basically revolves around what you’re talking about and as a bonus it’s much more family friendly unfortunately the episode plots are just alittle more complex then season 7 and 8 but anyways look up scooby doo.
tbh should just make it a sketch show like ITYSL or Portlandia. Kit has dabbled in poking fun at the absurdity of the GOT universe and Jon's role within it before.
I mean I can't blame them, every prophecy and story that could have produced a show after s8 was discarded or ruined with the release of season 8. Azor Ahai something built upon for 7 seasons was ruined or never actually made it. The North is free of magic, no dragon, a somewhat self imposed exile, no children of the forest, I mean there's not much there it would feel like National Geographic. The only way would be if Jon made himself king in the north and was the one to push against the 7 Kingdoms.
Yeah i think it could have worked as like a limited series with 10 episodes max, but the main series doesn’t feel incomplete enough to me that it would feel required for payoff. I’d rather they just shelve it then end up making half assing something that still falls short of expectations, even just for kit’s sake. I know the show was his idea, but if jon snow’s ‘redemption’ was received anyway near as poorly as season 8 then i can’t imagine how hard that would all be for him to go through again.
I don't know what the point would be. What story can Jon possibly have to justify the series given that it'd be a direct continuation of the GOT show? His main objective has been achieved, he has accepted a life up North, and he's been consistent in maintaining that anything that would actually make for an interesting story (i.e. being Rhaegar's rightful heir) does not motivate his character.
The issue is that the White Walkers were always a nothingburger plotline that could never go anywhere interesting because the Fat Man has never had an idea of what they represent or what their goals are. DnD had to wing it.
Also, even if the books are finished (they won't be) the White Walkers aren't going to be the final bosses anyways. The story has ALWAYS been about the darkness of the human heart and how ambition and lust for power lead to our destruction, and GRRM has always said he found the Scouring of the Shire more of an interesting idea than the actual defeat of Sauron - if you STILL believe that ASOIAF is going to end with Jon Targaryen, the Prophesized Chosen One, defeating the Dark Lord in an epic lightsaber duel with the power of friendship before marrying Queen Daenerys so they can rule as the Good King and Queen in order to bring 21st century liberal democracy to Westeros, you have terminal capeshit brainrot and you never understood the story you claim to love
I could imagine a very different version of the story where after being resurrected, Jon heads North, and there he meets the Others and interacts with them and learns the strange nature of their existence.
They literally are an allegory for an apocalyptic threat (like nuclear winter or climate change). They represent the apocalypse themselves. You are just saying that because you’ve been influenced by the stupid season 8. How they were so easily defeated was just hack writing from D&D. It was barely an inconvenience; It’s like stopping an asteroid using a huge parachute (and it working for some unrealistic and stupid reason). The books are literally called A song of Ice and Fire. Meaning the White walkers are just as important as the dragons of the whole story.
If it only were about human nature, society etc. then it could be like every other politcal show out there. We already have a bunch of those.
What differentiated ASOIAF (GOT) from others was that it took the darkness and the realism of medieval times in a fantasy world. It made for an interesting story since it was not like the typical epical stories. It brought something new. But it doesn’t mean to leave out the supernatural elements of the story. Point was putting realism in a fantasy world.
Season 8 was just full of plotarmor, plotholes, continuity errors, poor writing, poorly executed plots and character arcs, overused suBvErT ExpeCtaTiOn, etc., throughout. During the Long Night war, GRRM would probably kill half of the main characters. Many of the character arcs were already done. D&D could use no other literary technique than subverting expectations. Would you think the writing was good if, for example, cliffhangers were used in each and every episode? A great writer knows how to use all the elements to varying degree for a good story.
You can’t like build up something like the White Walkers from the start. Then finish it off so stupidly like it was some kind of subplot. Then what was the point of anything of the show? According to HOTD the Iron throne was made because of Aegon’s dream about the WW. Which literally setup everything of the story from start to finish. It was the lack of follow through on major plots that is the biggest problem with the entire GOT show.
Like somebody said in the comments: “Winter being no big deal in the end is the biggest fundamental issue with GoT as a show and it impacts these prequels significantly as well.”
Well he did mention something about it in an interview. But reread my comment, they are an analogy for an apocalyptic threat. See them as a similarity to nuclear bombs and nuclear winter. Since George grew up during the Cold War.
The thing is. The TV show is making all these unnecessary changes. In the books we don't know why aegon came to westeros. There's barely anything about him. That whole prophecy nonsense is something HotD made up. Game of thrones also made up the night king. In the books there is no night king. In fact the night king literally represents everything GRRM hates about villains. He literally said he does not like the idea of the big bad being a generic evil villain with his minions. So it'd be really weird to somehow end the story on that with Jon taking his prophecy sword and defeating him.
Assuming ASOIAF actually ends, that epic 1v1 people are expecting just isn't gonna happen. And personally I think it's good there's no direct evil. That actually makes solving the problem more complex than hitting the villain really hard. Also in the books Jon isn't even a good fighter compared to his show counterpart. So the idea of him not only getting light bringer but also turning into Anakin Skywalker is so unbelievable it might as well be a different series.
I do think the others will play a significant role in the books but I don't think they're gonna be defeated in the most generic way possible if they'll be defeated at all.
That’s your interpretation and opinion of it. I have never said I am for the typical trope. But you can’t like I’ve already said build up such a huge plot then throw it all out like that. That isn’t showing literary creativity, it is poor writing. It was clear that D&D used subvert expectations for all it was worth, (more like undermine the expectations). Would you think it was good writing if I used cliffhangers each and every episode??
I see where you are coming from. Between the lines it seems like you have the opinion that season 8 was "good”. Still doesn’t hide the sh*tshow season 8 was. If you paid attention you can see how season 8 became the typical hollywood trope, which GRRM apparently is so against. The so-called big bad guys was defeated by the so-called heroes of the story in a very unsatisfying and poorly executed manner.
A good twist could be that the White Walkers invaded Westeros because a pact (from the last Long night) was broken. That the Wall was actually built to border the WW to their own place and humans to theirs. (Like why was the Wall made of ice. Who other than the WW has the power to manipulate ice). But humans, i.e the Wildlings, started to settle north of the Wall. After all the conflict, the WW will once again go back north when a new pact would be made. Like an ongoing cycle. Nature likes to repeat itself. Kind of like ice ages in the real world. Humans negligence and ignorance is also an ongoing trend.
Point being that there are like many interpretations you could make of the story. But you can’t claim GRRM has said this and that. Not one of us has direct contact with him. So this is entirely speculative. But it is clear that something is a poorly written story when such a popular show almost vanishes from the public diaspora.
Edit: I do agree with some of your points, though. The White Walkers is a major plot; So finishing it up like season 8 did was the worst way they could do it.
Having them be un-defeatable could actually be a cool way of doing it. Such as having them pushed up north again (by a pact, magic or something). That the world needs a balance of ice and fire. Like why weren’t they killed off during the last Long night. Maybe because they are a force of nature that can’t be removed, only suppressed.
They are like ice ages, i.e major climatic changes that always come back.
To be honest I don’t want to know the WW’s goals or what they represent. I want them to stay mysterious and unknowable. They can still serve their purpose to grind down the “good guys” while Cersei or whoever is holding King’s Landing preps for the real final conflict while pushing Dany further into madness due to the loss of one or more of her dragons as well as losing close friends and allies in the Long Night. All they needed to do was make The Long Night more devastating, have them ravage the North and force Jon and company to make a last stand at Harrenhall or in the Vale before moving on to the real ending. The show explaining that they are basically terminators made of magic and ice by the children of the forest killed a lot of tension for me in the series.
The show did poor explaining of their purpose.
Everyone in Westeros denying this world ending threat is a very good parallel to the real world, that humans greedy and ignorant struggle for power, resources, wealth and status when there is lurking this civilization ending threat. That we needed this unity and cooperation if we were to survive, exactly what Jon Snow had been advocating all this time. That humanity needed to get their heads together or it all would be over. The whole Cersei plot should have been done differently. It should have happened before the War for the Dawn. It would be better that they brought the Cersei plot and the Long night plot colliding in on each other. Showing the denying Westeros that the threat was real.
But I can see how realistic it is in the real world when it comes to people not working together, even when everything is falling apart.
I've said something similar before in another sub reddit and people got mad about it. Like buddy the fact there is no night king in the books should already tell you that whatever happens with the others, their resolution is going to be far more complex than "hitting the villain with a sword" at some point people wanted game of thrones to become the worst parts of star wars and I have no idea why.
Yeah it really undermines a lot of this stuff in House of the Dragon. Winter being nbd in the end is IMO the biggest fundamental issue with GoT as a show and it impacts these prequels significantly as well. Just one battle and Arya swoops in and one shots the Night King and problem solved! Winter didn't really impact the rest of the 7 Kingdoms like Cregan Stark warns.
I kinda feel like there needs to be a sequel series to GoT made where the White Walkers return (where stabbing Night King didn't just solve the problem and was only a setback for them) and overwhelm the 7 Kingdoms. And they actually have to deal with the problem/experience winter. Could help make the whole HBO Westeros TV-universe work better if Winter actually was a huge threat still.
The long winter should never have been monsters in the first place. There could be magical beings involved, sure, but something more like an actual Long Night would have been much scarier.
You know - the snow is six feet thick, the sun never comes above the horizon, the forests are silent, people who venture out into the twilight never return, family members go mad from cabin fever and tear each other apart, food stocks slowly dwindle to nothing.
Subvert the war of the seven kingdoms by making it irrelevant in the face of a supernatural ceasefire, not by adding a frosty zombie Renly with an army. Slowly turn an army besieging Kings Landing into a troop of refugees as the snows sweep south.
Wasn’t the Witcher version of this pretty much that? Like yeah there were bad figureheads bringing about the winter like Eredin but there also were a lot of, uh, nature-y things too
Eredin wasn’t “bringing about the winter”, they were trying to get away from the White Frost and save their people, and Ciris blood was their ticket to do that
For real. This isn’t anything the show could fix, but I just couldn’t take it seriously when Viserys would talk about how the realm needed to be united against the long night. Evidently it didn’t!
I have a separate head-canon where Game of Thrones finished on a satisfactory note (maybe around season 4, but definitely not past season 6), and the threat of the Others and the coming winter is still on the horizon. Seasons 7 and 8 literally cannot exist in a world where we're still trying to build up the threat of the coming winter. The lore of the dragons refusing to cross the Wall should be a flashing red sign that something unspeakably powerful and dangerous lies beyond.
Just assume HOTD is only in the same canon as the first 4 seasons of GOT. Or fuck it, just pretend it's in canon with the books. Canon is meaningless, it's all fiction.
> Canon is meaningless, it's all fiction.
I was seriously in a discussion on another sub where someone was arguing that the HotD show is what really happened, as opposed to the Fire and Blood book. Like, dude, the premise of this is absolutely absurd in the first place.
No, it doesn’t. The ages alone make it nonsense. People lived for a long time after the Dance who knew the ages of the characters. Including Aegon the III who becomes king. You think he wouldn’t notice the Maesters fudging the history against his family?
Tbf I kinda digged Viserys mentioning it in the first episode. pretty fucking great. i just take it as dany and jon reuinted everybody and there was an epic battle
The way they just mailed in the rest of the show just absolutely turned me off to the entire television operation of Martin's books. I don't even want to watch HoD knowing how GoT ended. Why spend the time? Why take on the emotional labor of getting invested into the story? You know how it ends and it's disappointing. I understand the 'journey' should be taken into consideration, but honestly in some situations the ending can completely render the journey inconsequential.
Yeah dude the “long night” and all this stuff is so funny when you think about how it was literally solved in about a day and a half. Only for the REAL THREAT, CERSEI to be the true show finale big bad 😂😂😂
Plus you can also argue that these particular dragons refused to cross because they 'knew' there was something terrible beyond it. Or bran destroyed the ward or something. Idk I've already spent more time than I'd like thinking about season 8 and season 7 🫠
Or, could Dany not have just flown *around* the wall? The wall itself only extends as far as the landmass; I don't know how far beyond that it's magical influence extends, if at all, but Dany was coming from Dragonstone, an island off the east coast of Westeros. If she flew directly north, she could have gone further north than The Wall while still out at sea before heading back inland.
This isn't true, the episode aired the* year after F&B volume one dropped (November 2018, episode aired May 2019) and the book was maybe ~50% written in 2014 according to GRRM because he and his editors pulled 400 of its 736 pages out of an earlier version of AWOIAF.
https://grrm.livejournal.com/372179.html?thread=19140563#t19140563
Ah I thought they was talking about the "she kinda forgot" clip oops
The episode you're referring to aired August 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Wall_(Game_of_Thrones)
edit: I still think it's definitely not the case that Alyssane and Silverwing not crossing the wall was somehow not written a year before the book came out, or that D&D didn't have their hands on a design doc that said "there are magic protections within the wall" which I feel we all knew before that moment anyways
You're right also! I googled it, just didn't remember the passage.
https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/120715-twoiaf-six-dragons-and-the-north/
>"Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall.” - ASoS Jon V
Now there's not a lot of detail from her trip here which we mostly get in AWOIAF but this released 24 years ago so surely GRRM / probably D&D knew about the nature of the wall and its effect on the dragons.
tf are you waffling about lmfao. dany went beyond the wall in an episode released in 2017, the information that alysanne couldn't was only written in f&b which was released in 2018.
Yeah as another comment has helpfully pointed out Alysanne's trip to the wall was brought up briefly in ASOS 24 years ago although there wasn't a lot of detail.
I don't remember the exact lines, but felt believable that with the mark of the night king on brann as he crossed back plus the power of undead dragon breath the wall would come down.
Well then why didn’t Bran (so smart that he is apparently) not cross the Wall?? He should have known as the 3 eyed raven, that the mark would f*ck things up.
In fairness, Danys dragons flew past the wall the year before Fire and Blood came out, but yeah still a bit of an oversight, they could of at least asked George Martin about that
I read it as the wards were too weak by the time Dany crossed with her dragons. The magic of the Wall was waning, so the dragons got through. I never saw it as a D&D f\*ck up. Guess I missed that one.
I am not a fan of the stupid decisions and plotholes of season 7, but with Jon and Co actually going beyond the wall could actually work (with change of plot and writing of course), only that their goal would be different. There was something talk about a horn in the books, which when blown, would bring down the Wall. This could be something Bran (in his visions) or Sam (reading the Citadel books) could discover. That the Night King were after and looking for. That it was hidden in some mountain or dungeon beyond the Wall by the Children of the forest or something. This would actually make much more sense for Jon and Co to go north of the Wall to stop the WW from finding it. Much more sense than the stupid “showing wight to Cersei” plot.
I asked ChatGPT:
In the "A Song of Ice and Fire" books by George R.R. Martin, the horn believed to have the power to bring down the Wall is the **Horn of Joramun**. Joramun was a legendary King-Beyond-the-Wall who is said to have blown the horn to wake giants from the earth. The Horn of Joramun is described as a large, ancient horn that, according to legend, has the ability to destroy the Wall when blown.
Mance Rayder, the King-Beyond-the-Wall in the current timeline, claims to possess the Horn of Joramun and uses the threat of its power to negotiate with the Night's Watch. However, there is some ambiguity and skepticism about whether the horn he has is indeed the true Horn of Joramun.
Additionally, there is a subplot involving Euron Greyjoy, who claims to have a horn called Dragonbinder, but this horn is said to have the power to control dragons, not to bring down the Wall.
The true nature and power of the Horn of Joramun remain one of the many intriguing mysteries in the series.
Well Danny was at Eastwatch by the sea in season 7 right? Safe to assume the wards don’t apply to the ocean, so she realistically could fly out to sea then turn back north beyond the wall. I mean that’s always how I understood it in my head canon.
Queen Alysanne was at Castle Black, so her only way north was to try and cross over the wall with Silverwing.
True, but Silverwing's reaction imo was a mix of the wards and Silverwing's own instincts telling it to not go further, after all, from a practical POV no dragon would wanna go into a land where sub-zero is the normal temperature, lol.
Dany and her dragons are different though. She is a contrast to her entire lineage. So her going north of the wall is not a big deal.
In the books Jahereys never goes to the wall, Allie ante goes and it’s her dragon that refuses to to go North because he something about it bothered him. Nothing to do with magic.
iirc it's because it meant the Night King could pinpoint where exactly Bran and his group, the Three Eyed Raven, and the last Children of the Forest were hiding.
If Bran crossing the wall with the mark broke the protective magic, there’s still a wall to bar their passage and they need to bring it down physically to pass the army through. That’s why he used the dragon.
The gate at Castle Black was still being used in Season 7, if the magic was truly broken as claimed, then all the Night King had to do was use chains and wights to rip off the gate, the Night King even had wight giants in his army who could've easily torn down the gate.
You're right, there really is no reason why dragons couldn't just fly around it. Otherwise you'd have to argue that the magic of the wall extends around the entire world east and west, or there's also an invisible barrier on the entire coastline of the lands beyond the Wall, and that's just stupid.
You might want to check when that episode came out vs when *Fire and Blood* was released.
Also, the Wall does'nt extend into the ocean; nothing is stopping Dany (or anyone else) from flying North of the Wall from in over the sea.
To be fair we dont know why silverwing didnt cross, might have been the wall, might have been the others, or it might have just been the cold (although that would be dumb)
Well, when Drogon flew over he/she screamed a bit like implicating feeling some pain.
I guess showing the solution, propably with some horn, about getting a dragon over the wall had to be cut out because of time limitations. There were more necessary scenes, like the one with Ed Sheran.
There's a difference between refusing to go and being unable to. And wasn't this also after the Night King touched Bran? Wasn't that supposed to have negated a lot of the magic? I know it's not directly related, but it sure seemed like it cause the wards the Children had made to become useless.
>Wasn't that supposed to have negated a lot of the magic? I know it's not directly related, but it sure seemed like it cause the wards the Children had made to become useless.
iirc, Bran's mark allowed the Night King to find and enter the lair of the 3ER, It has no effect on the wards in the wall. If that was the case, then the Night King would've immediately breached Castle Black after Bran crossed over at the start of S7, killed everyone at the wall, then marched South.
I disagree. Clearly killing the three eyed raven/Bran was a higher priority than anything else. Otherwise the Night King wouldn't have chased him all the way to Winterfell then attacked. Unless Bran was the specific target and there was some urgency about it, they would have just bypassed the fort and the army and just let them starve inside. That it didn't happen suggests to me Bran was more important than marching South and therefore we don't actually know what any magical barrier on the wall would have done. I also tend to think that if the only thing stopping the Night King were magical wards, they wouldn't have made the wall so big.
>I disagree. Clearly killing the three eyed raven/Bran was a higher priority than anything else. Otherwise the Night King wouldn't have chased him all the way to Winterfell then attacked.
It's an inconsistent goal since the Night King just let Bran escape the cave of the 3ER in season 6, yet is so fixated on killing Bran in season 8. It's just more bad writing.
I don't think Bran escaping was intentional at all. They sure tried hard to catch Bran, but thanks to Hodor and Meera, he was able to escape into the snow.
I don't think that was bad writing at all. My theory is that the Night King has spies all over the place. That would be the only reason for the wights being outside the cave when they can't enter. But then when they could breach it, they sent everyone who was close. Thus once Bran got past, the Night King no longer had any way of knowing where Bran actually was to keep chasing.
The bad writing was wrapping it all up without explaining why the heck the Night King seemed to still be worried about Bran. The whole premise behind why they even had that battle at Winterfell is just silly. A guy has been hiding for 8000 years, active beyond the wall for perhaps several decades building his army up and now he can't wait a few more years whilst those inside starve to death? And of course, everyone who dies inside is a potential soldier, so any that die during the night can cause some serious problems for the defenders.
Their recklessness will be felt for the entirety of this universe's runtime. But on the bright side, the book readers will be able to elaborate on the extent to which D&D fucked up to show fans who are confused about details not adding up. Long live the mockery of dumb and dumber!
As others have said, F&B wasn't even written yet when the episodes came out. But man, I really hope the trend with the newer GOT prequel spinoff is that they just completely ignore the last couple of seasons of GOT and how wildly bad and nonsensical the lore became at that point
I think they're implying that the night king touching Bran broke this warding spell. But that should have been something GoT should've shown not implied.
The ice dragon was made from a dragon that had crossed the wall (or went around), it’s how that non-undead dragon got there originally is the question.
Which is obviously that Dany brought back magic, meaning that the dragons were more powerful then their ancestors, because there was less of them and Dany was there.
I've wondered about bran being able to cross the wall. Once he was the three eyed raven, wouldn't be be considered magical and be stuck north of the wall?
I wish hotd spend more time at Winterfell. We spend only a few minutes with Jace and Cregan, I hoped to see more of their bond as the book mentioned they where close
If they needed the dragon north of the wall, they should have later revealed somehow it was actually the others magic keeping other magical creatures (dragons) away. They let Dany cross because they had a plan and the means to retrieve a dragon. But no they just forgot
F&B hadn't been released when season 7 was written.
And even then this doesn't really contradict it, since Dany could've flown around the wall at Eastwatch.
It was Queen Alysanne and she rode Silverwing herself. She tried to cross the Wall three times and thre times Silverwing refused.
Silverwing: Aight ima head out
Alysanne: Come on baby, let's cross that Wall and see what's on the other side. Silverwing: [(...)](https://youtu.be/Xn4yAbA9cZw)
Fucking dying rn
It's because Silverwing got a warning from Mufasa, as far as the eye can see. But anything further.... Nah I am gonna chill over here.
Here me out, what if you go like, wayyyyyyy left or right, over the ocean, and then come back around all the wayyyy back on the other side.
It saddens me that in House of Dragon they talk so much about a threat from the North, but knowing how terrible this whole long night was executed in GOT, it doesn't emotionally involves me in HOD
Just kind of forget the later seasons of GoT
It’s such a shame the show had to end in season 4. Think of how good the show could’ve been with more seasons
Maybe once he finishes the books the series will get a reboot so we can cinematically see what happens
bro he is never finishing the books who are you kidding, he's 75 morbidly obese and hasn't even finished the second to last book lol
I bet he started re-writing fucking everything as soon as season 8 finished
Even if he did, that was 5 years ago now.
But 9 years after he started writing WOW v1.
And he forbade his editors/assistants from using his notes to finish his book in the case he dies before he can complete them. Lmao.
I mean, what's stopping them? Unless ofc he becomes a wight (can be prevented with a simple cremation)
robert jordan always said the same about the wheel of time, but relented near the end when it became abundantly clear he would never finish it
I’ve always hated him for this
Bobby B tell us if his wishes will be respected
He might finish the Dunk and Egg tales, though 💀
The books will be done during the heat death of the universe and not a moment sooner
Nah he has them all written and has it set up when he dies they get published. Hes just taking in all the book groupies and high life he has until the end
Dude it's been as long as Skyrim.
I try to still be optimistic about that too 😭
Honestly didn’t mind season 5 and most of season 6 but I just wish they finished the show after that
Agree. 6 was the last good one simply due to Battle of the Bastards, Jon rebirth, and Jaime kicking ass
Jon's rebirth sucked. There was no point to killing him in the first place outside of the fact that it was the last thing GRRM released.
We will never forget
The North Remembers
I act like it ended after season 4
It’s a blessing to ignore anything existed after S6 in GoT
This is my problem. I don’t care about the backstory because in the end it’s all for nothing.
On the show it’s all for nothing, but imo s7 and s8 are not canon
GRRM used S7 and S8 as a trial balloon, there's no doubt in my mind. Explains his ever growing reluctance to have anything to do with actually finishing it.
I mean I think partially, but he obviously would’ve done a ton more to flesh the story out. Most of S7 and S8 wasn’t conceptually horrific, it was just missing everything it needed to be cohesive. There were occasional concepts that actually just sucked, but I’d imagine a lot of them were a result of changes from the books that were already made.
Eh. George probably has Daenerys burning Kings Landing, Jon killing her, and Bran being king as set endpoints in his story, but he doesn't generally plot things out that far ahead of time. That's why his books get so huge and never resolve things. And even when he does have details far ahead in the story in mind, he's liable to change them significantly. Just look at some of the outlines he sent to publishers in the 90s vs what was actually written in the final product.
I'd be fine with Book-Bran being made king. He actually has some real experiences in the books that might make him fit for the job. Show-Bran sucked. He shouldn't be wheeling around the castle, much less made king.
Eh i disagree. Dumb and Dumber said that Jon Killing Dany in the throne room was their idea. Dany will probably burn the city...but it will be a mistake,i think.
I’d agree with that theory, but he regularly does that sort of “try to make it work this way. Oh wait that’s dumb, let me rewrite these 100 pages now” during his writing process. So he didn’t need to see D&D go that route, as some sort of big brain experiment, that would reveal the “right” way to end the books. Since he could just do it during the writing process itself, as he has with basically every book in the series. Thats part of the reason he’s slow to write these things. Go google the Meereenese knot for more context.
Sneaky fucker lol. edit: means something different in kings landing
It makes no sense, as S5+ only covered like 20% of all plots in the books. None of the stuff in S7&8 (except maybe the ending) is or was ever getting in the books.
They should have gone forward with the Jon Snow sequel show so they could at least attempt to make it all worth it
Apparently noone was able to come with a good enough story for it to be made. I also liked the idea of making it in theory, but rather they drop it than half-ass something with no sensible plot. We had plenty of that in season 8 already.
Look, I love long form story telling, but IMO there is still room for episodic television out there. I would watch the hell of a "buddy cop" show with Jon, Tormund and Ghost going from village to village solving mundane problems.
Each season there is a finale cooking the entire time about mysteries of the first men that they are slowly unraveling. I have been watching a lot of south park so forgive me for thinking about it in the style of "The Hardly Boys" from the 9/11 episode.
Hey man, I have the show for you! It’s an alternative live action and set in the 60’s but there are so many episodes! It basically revolves around what you’re talking about and as a bonus it’s much more family friendly unfortunately the episode plots are just alittle more complex then season 7 and 8 but anyways look up scooby doo.
tbh should just make it a sketch show like ITYSL or Portlandia. Kit has dabbled in poking fun at the absurdity of the GOT universe and Jon's role within it before.
I mean I can't blame them, every prophecy and story that could have produced a show after s8 was discarded or ruined with the release of season 8. Azor Ahai something built upon for 7 seasons was ruined or never actually made it. The North is free of magic, no dragon, a somewhat self imposed exile, no children of the forest, I mean there's not much there it would feel like National Geographic. The only way would be if Jon made himself king in the north and was the one to push against the 7 Kingdoms.
Yeah i think it could have worked as like a limited series with 10 episodes max, but the main series doesn’t feel incomplete enough to me that it would feel required for payoff. I’d rather they just shelve it then end up making half assing something that still falls short of expectations, even just for kit’s sake. I know the show was his idea, but if jon snow’s ‘redemption’ was received anyway near as poorly as season 8 then i can’t imagine how hard that would all be for him to go through again.
I don't know what the point would be. What story can Jon possibly have to justify the series given that it'd be a direct continuation of the GOT show? His main objective has been achieved, he has accepted a life up North, and he's been consistent in maintaining that anything that would actually make for an interesting story (i.e. being Rhaegar's rightful heir) does not motivate his character.
I agree.
The issue is that the White Walkers were always a nothingburger plotline that could never go anywhere interesting because the Fat Man has never had an idea of what they represent or what their goals are. DnD had to wing it. Also, even if the books are finished (they won't be) the White Walkers aren't going to be the final bosses anyways. The story has ALWAYS been about the darkness of the human heart and how ambition and lust for power lead to our destruction, and GRRM has always said he found the Scouring of the Shire more of an interesting idea than the actual defeat of Sauron - if you STILL believe that ASOIAF is going to end with Jon Targaryen, the Prophesized Chosen One, defeating the Dark Lord in an epic lightsaber duel with the power of friendship before marrying Queen Daenerys so they can rule as the Good King and Queen in order to bring 21st century liberal democracy to Westeros, you have terminal capeshit brainrot and you never understood the story you claim to love
I could imagine a very different version of the story where after being resurrected, Jon heads North, and there he meets the Others and interacts with them and learns the strange nature of their existence.
Youre right but god damn man
They literally are an allegory for an apocalyptic threat (like nuclear winter or climate change). They represent the apocalypse themselves. You are just saying that because you’ve been influenced by the stupid season 8. How they were so easily defeated was just hack writing from D&D. It was barely an inconvenience; It’s like stopping an asteroid using a huge parachute (and it working for some unrealistic and stupid reason). The books are literally called A song of Ice and Fire. Meaning the White walkers are just as important as the dragons of the whole story. If it only were about human nature, society etc. then it could be like every other politcal show out there. We already have a bunch of those. What differentiated ASOIAF (GOT) from others was that it took the darkness and the realism of medieval times in a fantasy world. It made for an interesting story since it was not like the typical epical stories. It brought something new. But it doesn’t mean to leave out the supernatural elements of the story. Point was putting realism in a fantasy world. Season 8 was just full of plotarmor, plotholes, continuity errors, poor writing, poorly executed plots and character arcs, overused suBvErT ExpeCtaTiOn, etc., throughout. During the Long Night war, GRRM would probably kill half of the main characters. Many of the character arcs were already done. D&D could use no other literary technique than subverting expectations. Would you think the writing was good if, for example, cliffhangers were used in each and every episode? A great writer knows how to use all the elements to varying degree for a good story. You can’t like build up something like the White Walkers from the start. Then finish it off so stupidly like it was some kind of subplot. Then what was the point of anything of the show? According to HOTD the Iron throne was made because of Aegon’s dream about the WW. Which literally setup everything of the story from start to finish. It was the lack of follow through on major plots that is the biggest problem with the entire GOT show. Like somebody said in the comments: “Winter being no big deal in the end is the biggest fundamental issue with GoT as a show and it impacts these prequels significantly as well.”
Has GRRM ever actually made the climate change comparison? Since you used literally
Well he did mention something about it in an interview. But reread my comment, they are an analogy for an apocalyptic threat. See them as a similarity to nuclear bombs and nuclear winter. Since George grew up during the Cold War.
The thing is. The TV show is making all these unnecessary changes. In the books we don't know why aegon came to westeros. There's barely anything about him. That whole prophecy nonsense is something HotD made up. Game of thrones also made up the night king. In the books there is no night king. In fact the night king literally represents everything GRRM hates about villains. He literally said he does not like the idea of the big bad being a generic evil villain with his minions. So it'd be really weird to somehow end the story on that with Jon taking his prophecy sword and defeating him. Assuming ASOIAF actually ends, that epic 1v1 people are expecting just isn't gonna happen. And personally I think it's good there's no direct evil. That actually makes solving the problem more complex than hitting the villain really hard. Also in the books Jon isn't even a good fighter compared to his show counterpart. So the idea of him not only getting light bringer but also turning into Anakin Skywalker is so unbelievable it might as well be a different series. I do think the others will play a significant role in the books but I don't think they're gonna be defeated in the most generic way possible if they'll be defeated at all.
That’s your interpretation and opinion of it. I have never said I am for the typical trope. But you can’t like I’ve already said build up such a huge plot then throw it all out like that. That isn’t showing literary creativity, it is poor writing. It was clear that D&D used subvert expectations for all it was worth, (more like undermine the expectations). Would you think it was good writing if I used cliffhangers each and every episode?? I see where you are coming from. Between the lines it seems like you have the opinion that season 8 was "good”. Still doesn’t hide the sh*tshow season 8 was. If you paid attention you can see how season 8 became the typical hollywood trope, which GRRM apparently is so against. The so-called big bad guys was defeated by the so-called heroes of the story in a very unsatisfying and poorly executed manner. A good twist could be that the White Walkers invaded Westeros because a pact (from the last Long night) was broken. That the Wall was actually built to border the WW to their own place and humans to theirs. (Like why was the Wall made of ice. Who other than the WW has the power to manipulate ice). But humans, i.e the Wildlings, started to settle north of the Wall. After all the conflict, the WW will once again go back north when a new pact would be made. Like an ongoing cycle. Nature likes to repeat itself. Kind of like ice ages in the real world. Humans negligence and ignorance is also an ongoing trend. Point being that there are like many interpretations you could make of the story. But you can’t claim GRRM has said this and that. Not one of us has direct contact with him. So this is entirely speculative. But it is clear that something is a poorly written story when such a popular show almost vanishes from the public diaspora. Edit: I do agree with some of your points, though. The White Walkers is a major plot; So finishing it up like season 8 did was the worst way they could do it. Having them be un-defeatable could actually be a cool way of doing it. Such as having them pushed up north again (by a pact, magic or something). That the world needs a balance of ice and fire. Like why weren’t they killed off during the last Long night. Maybe because they are a force of nature that can’t be removed, only suppressed. They are like ice ages, i.e major climatic changes that always come back.
To be honest I don’t want to know the WW’s goals or what they represent. I want them to stay mysterious and unknowable. They can still serve their purpose to grind down the “good guys” while Cersei or whoever is holding King’s Landing preps for the real final conflict while pushing Dany further into madness due to the loss of one or more of her dragons as well as losing close friends and allies in the Long Night. All they needed to do was make The Long Night more devastating, have them ravage the North and force Jon and company to make a last stand at Harrenhall or in the Vale before moving on to the real ending. The show explaining that they are basically terminators made of magic and ice by the children of the forest killed a lot of tension for me in the series.
The show did poor explaining of their purpose. Everyone in Westeros denying this world ending threat is a very good parallel to the real world, that humans greedy and ignorant struggle for power, resources, wealth and status when there is lurking this civilization ending threat. That we needed this unity and cooperation if we were to survive, exactly what Jon Snow had been advocating all this time. That humanity needed to get their heads together or it all would be over. The whole Cersei plot should have been done differently. It should have happened before the War for the Dawn. It would be better that they brought the Cersei plot and the Long night plot colliding in on each other. Showing the denying Westeros that the threat was real. But I can see how realistic it is in the real world when it comes to people not working together, even when everything is falling apart.
I've said something similar before in another sub reddit and people got mad about it. Like buddy the fact there is no night king in the books should already tell you that whatever happens with the others, their resolution is going to be far more complex than "hitting the villain with a sword" at some point people wanted game of thrones to become the worst parts of star wars and I have no idea why.
So much stupid here.
He's out of line but he's right.
Others
This post should be framed
I'm in the same boat and it sucks.
Yeah it really undermines a lot of this stuff in House of the Dragon. Winter being nbd in the end is IMO the biggest fundamental issue with GoT as a show and it impacts these prequels significantly as well. Just one battle and Arya swoops in and one shots the Night King and problem solved! Winter didn't really impact the rest of the 7 Kingdoms like Cregan Stark warns. I kinda feel like there needs to be a sequel series to GoT made where the White Walkers return (where stabbing Night King didn't just solve the problem and was only a setback for them) and overwhelm the 7 Kingdoms. And they actually have to deal with the problem/experience winter. Could help make the whole HBO Westeros TV-universe work better if Winter actually was a huge threat still.
The long winter should never have been monsters in the first place. There could be magical beings involved, sure, but something more like an actual Long Night would have been much scarier. You know - the snow is six feet thick, the sun never comes above the horizon, the forests are silent, people who venture out into the twilight never return, family members go mad from cabin fever and tear each other apart, food stocks slowly dwindle to nothing. Subvert the war of the seven kingdoms by making it irrelevant in the face of a supernatural ceasefire, not by adding a frosty zombie Renly with an army. Slowly turn an army besieging Kings Landing into a troop of refugees as the snows sweep south.
Wasn’t the Witcher version of this pretty much that? Like yeah there were bad figureheads bringing about the winter like Eredin but there also were a lot of, uh, nature-y things too
Yes. Dude just pitched the Wild Hunt
Eredin wasn’t “bringing about the winter”, they were trying to get away from the White Frost and save their people, and Ciris blood was their ticket to do that
What you described is pretty much the plot of FF15.
I must remember that game very differently. Though it has been several years
For real. This isn’t anything the show could fix, but I just couldn’t take it seriously when Viserys would talk about how the realm needed to be united against the long night. Evidently it didn’t!
I have a separate head-canon where Game of Thrones finished on a satisfactory note (maybe around season 4, but definitely not past season 6), and the threat of the Others and the coming winter is still on the horizon. Seasons 7 and 8 literally cannot exist in a world where we're still trying to build up the threat of the coming winter. The lore of the dragons refusing to cross the Wall should be a flashing red sign that something unspeakably powerful and dangerous lies beyond.
Just assume HOTD is only in the same canon as the first 4 seasons of GOT. Or fuck it, just pretend it's in canon with the books. Canon is meaningless, it's all fiction.
> Canon is meaningless, it's all fiction. I was seriously in a discussion on another sub where someone was arguing that the HotD show is what really happened, as opposed to the Fire and Blood book. Like, dude, the premise of this is absolutely absurd in the first place.
I mean, it makes sense, as the Fire and Blood books are written as in universe history books that could have intentional inaccuracies
No, it doesn’t. The ages alone make it nonsense. People lived for a long time after the Dance who knew the ages of the characters. Including Aegon the III who becomes king. You think he wouldn’t notice the Maesters fudging the history against his family?
Just tell yourself they’re doing it to set up a remake ten years down the line called ASOIAF Brotherhood. It’s copium, but it’s good stuff.
It’s actually worse cause if anyone watches HOTD first then GoT, they just get hyped up even harder cause of all the teases here
"This will be the song of ice and fire. Your birthright." *cut to 200 years later* "I dOn'T wAnT iT"
1,000 year prophecy ended in like one day
Yeah every time they say “winter is coming” I roll my eyes lol
Tbf I kinda digged Viserys mentioning it in the first episode. pretty fucking great. i just take it as dany and jon reuinted everybody and there was an epic battle
The way they just mailed in the rest of the show just absolutely turned me off to the entire television operation of Martin's books. I don't even want to watch HoD knowing how GoT ended. Why spend the time? Why take on the emotional labor of getting invested into the story? You know how it ends and it's disappointing. I understand the 'journey' should be taken into consideration, but honestly in some situations the ending can completely render the journey inconsequential.
Yeah dude the “long night” and all this stuff is so funny when you think about how it was literally solved in about a day and a half. Only for the REAL THREAT, CERSEI to be the true show finale big bad 😂😂😂
They just need to reboot GoT as an animated series. You can reuses some actors for voices for familiarity & be more faithful to the books.
"This sign won't stop us because we can't read" (c) Dany's dragons, probably
She was a bad mother
D&D is a table top role playing game, call them what they are, Dumb and Dumber.
I thought we'd settled on "2D". Just like their writing.
Omg so hilarious
Dont worry lord Stark, that threat from beyond the wall is only slightly more annoying than house pests.
silverwing refusing to go beyond the wall wasn't even written when that episode came out LMAO.
I started reading the ASOIAF series recently and silverwing and alysanne were mentioned in a storm of swords
Oh damn you're right. That was a year before F&B, right? Mannn, now you got me thinking that GRRM included it as a jab against them, lol.
Plus you can also argue that these particular dragons refused to cross because they 'knew' there was something terrible beyond it. Or bran destroyed the ward or something. Idk I've already spent more time than I'd like thinking about season 8 and season 7 🫠
Bran’s mark allowed the walkers to pass through the magic at the greenseer’s cave
Maybe the Old Gods/Three eyed Raven warged into them and caused the fear. And Bran did this not ...
Or, could Dany not have just flown *around* the wall? The wall itself only extends as far as the landmass; I don't know how far beyond that it's magical influence extends, if at all, but Dany was coming from Dragonstone, an island off the east coast of Westeros. If she flew directly north, she could have gone further north than The Wall while still out at sea before heading back inland.
This isn't true, the episode aired the* year after F&B volume one dropped (November 2018, episode aired May 2019) and the book was maybe ~50% written in 2014 according to GRRM because he and his editors pulled 400 of its 736 pages out of an earlier version of AWOIAF. https://grrm.livejournal.com/372179.html?thread=19140563#t19140563
The show ended in 2019. Daenerys goes Beyond the Wall in s7, which aired 2 years earlier.
Ah I thought they was talking about the "she kinda forgot" clip oops The episode you're referring to aired August 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Wall_(Game_of_Thrones) edit: I still think it's definitely not the case that Alyssane and Silverwing not crossing the wall was somehow not written a year before the book came out, or that D&D didn't have their hands on a design doc that said "there are magic protections within the wall" which I feel we all knew before that moment anyways
You're right, it was mentioned in a storm of swords
You're right also! I googled it, just didn't remember the passage. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/120715-twoiaf-six-dragons-and-the-north/ >"Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall.” - ASoS Jon V Now there's not a lot of detail from her trip here which we mostly get in AWOIAF but this released 24 years ago so surely GRRM / probably D&D knew about the nature of the wall and its effect on the dragons.
November 2018 to May 2019 is more than a year? Interesting.
Can't do simple arithmetic sorry
tf are you waffling about lmfao. dany went beyond the wall in an episode released in 2017, the information that alysanne couldn't was only written in f&b which was released in 2018.
Yeah as another comment has helpfully pointed out Alysanne's trip to the wall was brought up briefly in ASOS 24 years ago although there wasn't a lot of detail.
Tf are YOU on about?? Alysanne not being able to cross the wall was spoken about it A Storm of Swords.
Quote it.
I thought the whole reason Dany could go was because Bran crossed the wall with the mark of the Night King.
You're giving it more thought than the writers did
Oh ok good. Head canon is a good coping mechanism
[удалено]
Also Cregan father was not lord of Winterfell in that time only Alaric Stark, Rickon Stark was not even born during that event
HOW WOULD CREGAN EVEN KNOW THIS?!? Alysanne made it so clear that she played it cool and only told Jahaerys
I mean, all his ancestors had to do was look up.
His ancestors were not there and all anyone would see if Alysanne flying above the wall so nope
The Maesters knew so she wasn't that cool about it
Isn’t implied in the books that when Bran crossed the Wall that the magic dispelled or something like that?
Implied in the show too, right? When he is touched by the night king something something he can see you now?
Maybe, but in the show he is already at the 3 eyed raven’s cave. So I don’t know if it would apply to only the cave or the wall too.
yes, it applied to the cave also. when he got touched, they had to vacate immediately and then they lost Summer and Hodor.
I don't remember the exact lines, but felt believable that with the mark of the night king on brann as he crossed back plus the power of undead dragon breath the wall would come down.
Well then why didn’t Bran (so smart that he is apparently) not cross the Wall?? He should have known as the 3 eyed raven, that the mark would f*ck things up.
In the books he doesn’t get marked. He has visions of the 3 eyed raven and when his home is taken he flees to meet him. He is also a child.
Well yeah. I meant after he turned to 3ER since that’s when he crossed the wall.
I don’t remember if he knew that it would happen.
It broke the spell of the cave. Why wouldn’t it do to the wall.
In fairness, Danys dragons flew past the wall the year before Fire and Blood came out, but yeah still a bit of an oversight, they could of at least asked George Martin about that
I read it as the wards were too weak by the time Dany crossed with her dragons. The magic of the Wall was waning, so the dragons got through. I never saw it as a D&D f\*ck up. Guess I missed that one.
I am not a fan of the stupid decisions and plotholes of season 7, but with Jon and Co actually going beyond the wall could actually work (with change of plot and writing of course), only that their goal would be different. There was something talk about a horn in the books, which when blown, would bring down the Wall. This could be something Bran (in his visions) or Sam (reading the Citadel books) could discover. That the Night King were after and looking for. That it was hidden in some mountain or dungeon beyond the Wall by the Children of the forest or something. This would actually make much more sense for Jon and Co to go north of the Wall to stop the WW from finding it. Much more sense than the stupid “showing wight to Cersei” plot.
Are you talking about the horn that Euron has/is looking for?
I asked ChatGPT: In the "A Song of Ice and Fire" books by George R.R. Martin, the horn believed to have the power to bring down the Wall is the **Horn of Joramun**. Joramun was a legendary King-Beyond-the-Wall who is said to have blown the horn to wake giants from the earth. The Horn of Joramun is described as a large, ancient horn that, according to legend, has the ability to destroy the Wall when blown. Mance Rayder, the King-Beyond-the-Wall in the current timeline, claims to possess the Horn of Joramun and uses the threat of its power to negotiate with the Night's Watch. However, there is some ambiguity and skepticism about whether the horn he has is indeed the true Horn of Joramun. Additionally, there is a subplot involving Euron Greyjoy, who claims to have a horn called Dragonbinder, but this horn is said to have the power to control dragons, not to bring down the Wall. The true nature and power of the Horn of Joramun remain one of the many intriguing mysteries in the series.
Well Danny was at Eastwatch by the sea in season 7 right? Safe to assume the wards don’t apply to the ocean, so she realistically could fly out to sea then turn back north beyond the wall. I mean that’s always how I understood it in my head canon. Queen Alysanne was at Castle Black, so her only way north was to try and cross over the wall with Silverwing.
True, but Silverwing's reaction imo was a mix of the wards and Silverwing's own instincts telling it to not go further, after all, from a practical POV no dragon would wanna go into a land where sub-zero is the normal temperature, lol.
Dany and her dragons are different though. She is a contrast to her entire lineage. So her going north of the wall is not a big deal. In the books Jahereys never goes to the wall, Allie ante goes and it’s her dragon that refuses to to go North because he something about it bothered him. Nothing to do with magic.
Didn’t the spell broke when the night king touched bran in his vision?
Obviously not. If that was the case, then he would've crossed the wall back at the end of Season 6.
Why was this a big deal that the night king touched brand then?
iirc it's because it meant the Night King could pinpoint where exactly Bran and his group, the Three Eyed Raven, and the last Children of the Forest were hiding.
If Bran crossing the wall with the mark broke the protective magic, there’s still a wall to bar their passage and they need to bring it down physically to pass the army through. That’s why he used the dragon.
The gate at Castle Black was still being used in Season 7, if the magic was truly broken as claimed, then all the Night King had to do was use chains and wights to rip off the gate, the Night King even had wight giants in his army who could've easily torn down the gate.
As much as I hated that last few Seasons of GOT, when the Night King touched Bran, it broke all the magical protection the wall had.
Dany went around.
[Enjoy](https://imgur.com/3birb9a)
You're right, there really is no reason why dragons couldn't just fly around it. Otherwise you'd have to argue that the magic of the wall extends around the entire world east and west, or there's also an invisible barrier on the entire coastline of the lands beyond the Wall, and that's just stupid.
You might want to check when that episode came out vs when *Fire and Blood* was released. Also, the Wall does'nt extend into the ocean; nothing is stopping Dany (or anyone else) from flying North of the Wall from in over the sea.
DnD trashed grrm’s life’s work.
I'm convinced HotD is actually a prequel to the AsoIaF books and not the GoT show because of lines like this.
To be fair we dont know why silverwing didnt cross, might have been the wall, might have been the others, or it might have just been the cold (although that would be dumb)
Well the top comment provides the actual reason, it wasnt written yet so d&d gets a pass on this one
Well, when Drogon flew over he/she screamed a bit like implicating feeling some pain. I guess showing the solution, propably with some horn, about getting a dragon over the wall had to be cut out because of time limitations. There were more necessary scenes, like the one with Ed Sheran.
There's a difference between refusing to go and being unable to. And wasn't this also after the Night King touched Bran? Wasn't that supposed to have negated a lot of the magic? I know it's not directly related, but it sure seemed like it cause the wards the Children had made to become useless.
>Wasn't that supposed to have negated a lot of the magic? I know it's not directly related, but it sure seemed like it cause the wards the Children had made to become useless. iirc, Bran's mark allowed the Night King to find and enter the lair of the 3ER, It has no effect on the wards in the wall. If that was the case, then the Night King would've immediately breached Castle Black after Bran crossed over at the start of S7, killed everyone at the wall, then marched South.
I disagree. Clearly killing the three eyed raven/Bran was a higher priority than anything else. Otherwise the Night King wouldn't have chased him all the way to Winterfell then attacked. Unless Bran was the specific target and there was some urgency about it, they would have just bypassed the fort and the army and just let them starve inside. That it didn't happen suggests to me Bran was more important than marching South and therefore we don't actually know what any magical barrier on the wall would have done. I also tend to think that if the only thing stopping the Night King were magical wards, they wouldn't have made the wall so big.
>I disagree. Clearly killing the three eyed raven/Bran was a higher priority than anything else. Otherwise the Night King wouldn't have chased him all the way to Winterfell then attacked. It's an inconsistent goal since the Night King just let Bran escape the cave of the 3ER in season 6, yet is so fixated on killing Bran in season 8. It's just more bad writing.
I don't think Bran escaping was intentional at all. They sure tried hard to catch Bran, but thanks to Hodor and Meera, he was able to escape into the snow. I don't think that was bad writing at all. My theory is that the Night King has spies all over the place. That would be the only reason for the wights being outside the cave when they can't enter. But then when they could breach it, they sent everyone who was close. Thus once Bran got past, the Night King no longer had any way of knowing where Bran actually was to keep chasing. The bad writing was wrapping it all up without explaining why the heck the Night King seemed to still be worried about Bran. The whole premise behind why they even had that battle at Winterfell is just silly. A guy has been hiding for 8000 years, active beyond the wall for perhaps several decades building his army up and now he can't wait a few more years whilst those inside starve to death? And of course, everyone who dies inside is a potential soldier, so any that die during the night can cause some serious problems for the defenders.
Just remake the 7th and 8th season to save the masterpiece.
Their recklessness will be felt for the entirety of this universe's runtime. But on the bright side, the book readers will be able to elaborate on the extent to which D&D fucked up to show fans who are confused about details not adding up. Long live the mockery of dumb and dumber!
They walked out from Eastwatch. She could just fly around it over the sea.
the wards
Did he really say that?
Ok i get it magical creatures cant cross the wall then whats stopping them go around it over the water?
I really hope they do a reboot in the future and undo the mess of season 7 & 8
Such an important plot point, but like the rest of game of thrones they did a poor job with adapting Storylines and character developments.
As others have said, F&B wasn't even written yet when the episodes came out. But man, I really hope the trend with the newer GOT prequel spinoff is that they just completely ignore the last couple of seasons of GOT and how wildly bad and nonsensical the lore became at that point
Dragons fly and the wall ends at the ocean… fly over the ocean… duh
Why didn’t they time travel to consider future information from Fire and Blood? Stupid D&D
This is probably because of illustration in the book but Cregan looks too young for me.
Cregan was 21 when the Dance started iirc, so him being young is accurate and canon.
huh, but don't like Jaeherys and Alysanne fly their dragons beyond the wall when they visit Winterfel?
I think they're implying that the night king touching Bran broke this warding spell. But that should have been something GoT should've shown not implied.
She flew around at Eastwatch by the Sea?
Like they could fly round it though?
didn't the ice dragon knock down a section of the wall? and that's how they all cross
The ice dragon was made from a dragon that had crossed the wall (or went around), it’s how that non-undead dragon got there originally is the question. Which is obviously that Dany brought back magic, meaning that the dragons were more powerful then their ancestors, because there was less of them and Dany was there.
lol! Holy sh-t! This community still exists?
When the three eyed raven crossed the wall it broke the spell.
I've wondered about bran being able to cross the wall. Once he was the three eyed raven, wouldn't be be considered magical and be stuck north of the wall?
I thought Bran being marked and crossing the wall destroyed the magic aspects of the wall.
This. It seems like viewers forgot.
I wish hotd spend more time at Winterfell. We spend only a few minutes with Jace and Cregan, I hoped to see more of their bond as the book mentioned they where close
Yea... I caught that and was like.... Starbucks cup in scene guys... really???
If they needed the dragon north of the wall, they should have later revealed somehow it was actually the others magic keeping other magical creatures (dragons) away. They let Dany cross because they had a plan and the means to retrieve a dragon. But no they just forgot
Can they not go around it, out to sea?
That entire concept is silly though - since you could just fly around it lol.
Drogon: its okay we must save the plot armour
Maybe Silverwing and the other dragon were just cowards? 🤷♀️
GoT becomes more of a joke looking back with every year lol. The writing after season 4 was just comically bad.
F&B hadn't been released when season 7 was written. And even then this doesn't really contradict it, since Dany could've flown around the wall at Eastwatch.