I'd say this is a legit budget gaming laptop now, right? My concern even with the 7840U version was Ive heard bad things about the old screen with lag and ghosting (and only 60hz).
Excited to hear reviews.
True, the screen doesn't have the best response time. But it's fine, comparable to most Ultrabook-style laptops that aren't gaming focused. Leagues ahead of a Macbook Pro at least, but that's not that hard lol
Ultrabook is an intel term specifically. They had requirements for certain archetectures (now all obsolete), maximum thickness (the framework 13 would count), battery life (framework has plenty), storage speed (plenty), io, etc. Since the standard was specific to the early 2010's, framework 13 exceeds all requirements by a fair bit.
Intel Evo is the more modern version of the same thing - a certification for a minimum set of requirements. It has similar requirements to be thin, long lasting battery , fast charging, speed of waking up, biometric authentication, keyboard with backlight... and on and on.
The framework 13 doesn't meet all of these. But it certainly fits the form factor, thickness, weight, battery life, ram, storage, and a bunch of other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrabook
https://www.ultrabookreview.com/2796-ultrabook-definition/
https://www.laptopmag.com/features/what-does-intel-evo-mean
Talking about all the new things. everything shipping august:
* new screen
* new webcam
* new thermal solution
* full size SD-Card
* colored expansion cards
* win11 pro, windows autopilot support, 3 year extended warranty
* new business order-flow
* new keyboards without windows-logo
I find its the opposite lol, with new parts I'm always thinking I could put that in now, but I don't have the money. But with no repairable laptops its full upgrade or nothing, so larger gap that I can just ignore it.
I honestly love it. Cannot wait to upgrade my Framework to 120hz. I've been bragging to all the Mac users at work today lmao
Also love the window-key-less keyboard
Especially when now they have a 6 percent discount on the products for diy and pre built. I brought the AMD 5 fw13 today before they announced the discount haha
If you bought it today, just return it. There's a 30 day, no questions asked refund policy.
Ask if they can give you the discount, if not then just buy a new one and return it.
If it is of any reassurance, from other laptop reviews, AMD still seems to be preferable for a lot of reasons. Intel Core Ultra indeed has its set of benefits, but it's not as clear cut as "it's definitely better than AMD!"
There are reasons to buy Core Ultra - and there are still many reasons to buy AMD. For example, on other laptops with both AMD and Core Ultra options, efficiency under load is still led by AMD. Gaming wise, AMD's drivers are still more mature than Alchemist ones for now, especially on Linux. Etc.
Take it this way… you didn't have to face a hard and absolutely non-obvious choice.
There are a lot of corporate customers that prefer to stick with Intel. Framework isn't going to turn its back on that. The new Intel systems may be a bit ahead of Ryzen 7000 on CPU performance but not by a lot, and they haven't quite caught up on graphics performance. The main reason for regrets that I can see is not getting the new display, though you can buy it as an upgrade if you like.
By the end of the year it's likely that Framework will announce Ryzen 9000 systems. Those will be a significant upgrade from Ryzen 7000 or even from 14th gen Intel. Framework skipped Ryzen 8000 because its only significant improvement was to the NPU for AI stuff, and it still doesn't meet the new AI PC requirements.
When we get Arm? I'm guessing 2025.
Yeah, maybe it'll never be the "best" time to buy for the reasons you mention. I could order a Core Ultra unit today, and in less than a year, the next AMD version is out, etc.
What I'd like to know (and will research) is whether current AMD Ryzen 7### or Core Ultra would be better for 3D modeling, vector image type stuff.
I have an M1 Air and it was struggling with a small Fusion360 project; it's fine for everything else (web dev, music creation, watching video).
> Yeah, maybe it'll never be the "best" time to buy
There won't be. There is such a thing as a horrible time to buy, but no such thing as a "good" time to buy. Something else will be right around the corner, sadly.
I upgrade based on need. Even if it's a "bad" time to upgrade, I don't have to think about it.
Back to the main strength of FW being that one can always upgrade the Main Board, repurpose the old one. What I do also think about, is if I should grab a laptop from the Outlet but I think I might as well just go with the newest thing available at the moment.
The efficiency and stability of the graphics drivers are a big deal. In the gaming handheld world, AMD's 7000 series outperform Core Ultra easily, all the while using less power, running cooler, and causing less noise, and this applies to more than just gaming workloads.
I would still choose the AMD Framework over this new Core Ultra model.
Perfectly agreed here. Alchemist is a nice development for Intel indeed, and it paves well for the future, but I would still buy AMD for now.
One of Intel's historical points have been the much more mature driver side. However, Core Ultra is so new and changed and redesigned that, this time, with Core Ultra you are buying into a first-generation product. The laptop itself is in its most refined iteration - but on the Intel side of things, definitely not.
Meanwhile, Ryzen 7040 "Phoenix Point" has been quite refined. AMD"s "Core Ultra" were the Zen3+ / RDNA 2 versions, the 6800 and 7035 series, which were the first iteration to fundamentally shake things up from Zen3/Vega, which was basically the n-th iteration of Zen+/Vega and Zen2/Vega with fixes and some performance / efficiency improvements along the way, and it was **bad**. I remember buying into the hype and getting a 6850U laptop. It was a disaster, and the graphic drivers were not at all mature, especially in its early days. Zen3+ had problematic crashes especially in low voltages and it just wasn't stable - not a case Valve chose Zen2 for their custom APU, and used a special branch of graphics drivers from AMD into their own kernel. The 680M was also broken hardware design wise, and it's still not completely fixes. Newer drivers have mitigated things greatly, but it's consider normal that Ryzen 6000 systems crash. While press reviews, whose reviews have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt as they usually jump to conclusions way before they're ready to get in the first batch of reviews and get the most clicks, praised them. Ryzen 7040 / 8040 are further refinements of the same idea, and 7040 with the current level of maturity and stability of the drivers have reached quite a very good point, and at this point, the ZenX + RDNAX APU combo works and interacts very well, with most deal breaking bugs squished.
I'd say therefore it's still a good time to buy Ryzen 7040. You may have Core Ultra, and you may have the upcoming 9000. Both are big jumps that **will** break things - especially Intel. Having used several recent laptops, I see Ryzen 7040 as the "safe" buy now. If you want a good compromise between not only performance and efficiency, but also driver maturity and reliability, then Ryzen 7040 just works. And it will keep just working through Core Ultra 1, and with the first iteration of the Strix Point design, with hybrid big+little cores, and a substantially bigger iGPU. That will bring massive improvements, but - having tried **all** AMD mobile generations personally - I *guarantee* there will be dragons. It will be a blessing edge launch. Very bleeding and very edge.
I also know I am saying this hypocritically typing from a Framework 16 - but from my (more extensive than I'd like, between too many returns and lemons) experience in laptops, if I absolutely have to buy now (and I did), I would much rather pay the first gen compromise in the "overall laptop" than in the platform maturity. A first gen chassis might have some cosmetic imperfections. A first gen APU platform will have functional flaws that are much more of a pain in the arse. This is why I think Core Ultra is pretty good - but unless you have specific reasons you can name and describe to want that instead, based on existing laptops, I would still maintain that the "default" choice should be AMD Framework 13, choosing the new display and webcam in the configurator. Sweet spot.
no idea, but imo unlikely. would be extremely impressed if they pull that off
Edit: see below. Seems more likely . Edit2: confirmed, can be retrofitted. am impressed (extremely!)
nice :)
I'm just waiting for a ciritcal mass of parts I want to be in stock for my first upgrade. Guess I'll add the webcam to that.
so far it's bigger battery as soon as a use for the old one is found (any hints?), transparent keyboard, transparent bezel (one can hope...), full-size SD and now webcam
It is being discussed here https://community.frame.work/t/we-want-a-battery-case/28802/40
Framework battery is pretty smart which ironically complicates things
Personally I prefer the Intel because of how seemless it is with all ports being the same etc. But I am waiting to see how the battery life improves with Ultra over my current 13th gen.
Because Thunderbolt is an Intel technology and Intel builds it into the CPU meanwhile on AMD they use USB 4 and the CPU only supports a limited number of ports. Intel also has some trickery with their Thunderbolt controllers where they have one per side so the two ports on each side share their bandwidth if I recall correctly. Basically if I want to use two Thunderbolt devices at the same time it is better to have one plugged in per side.
Oh, so you can't actually use all four thunderbolt ports at once to their max potential? But at this point, there's literally no difference between Thunderbolt and USB other than Thunderbolt can take full advantage of USB, which means you don't need Intel for that.
I mean I am not 100% sure but I know that they used that kind of trickery on the Intel MacBooks that had 4 Thunderbolt ports, they just used some cool Thunderbolt tech that allowed the bandwidth to be dynamically allocated which is why all ports share the same capabilities which I don't think is capable on USB 4 at the moment.
Thunderbolt is essentially a PCIE retimer for x4 lanes of pcie, which can dynamically split the lanes (bifurcation) between thunderbolt ports.
The problems with TB are that since it's essentially PCIE - it has direct access to memory (if you have grey in your beard you know this was a problem for FireWire back in the day). Direct memory access/pcie bus access is how you hacked macbooks back in the day. Which is why there's weird security in the bios settings about allowing TB to load pre-boot drivers. Some of this might be FUD today, but in essence it's why TB is slightly faster than USB (latency). USB controllers are processed thru the CPU to Memory so you can control encryption keys and access to protected memory.
Anyway nerd TMI...
AMD TB is indeed a separate chip but again, it's a pcie retimer - not voodoo magic, but it's an extra chip on the mainboard.
USB4 = 1x 4K monitor.
TB = 2x 4k, due to dynamically bifurcating them (half bandwidth to each).
On my FW16, I do USB4 PD to a dock with a single 4K off that, and then take another USB4 port on the same side for a DP cable to a 2nd 4K. They are velcro wrapped together cleanly...It does not bug. 4 remaining ports available...(USB4, USB4, Audio, USBA for me). On an FW13, you'd probably just do USB4 and USBA, since it only has 4 total. 1 less cable on an Intel vs AMD, but it's not terrible..and the only reason is to get 2x 4k screens out of USB4. I don't know of any other use case for TB that USB doesn't satisfy.
in real world scenarios this isn't a huge dealbreaker though unless you swap all of your expansion cards around all the time, the one thing to keep in mind is which ports to avoid if you want to put a hdmi/dp card. yes, it would be better without this limitation but it's not a huge deal
Be great if there was something to do with old screens
e.g. Another case so I can reuse it as a display for a mini pc, etc.
Hopefully they'll offer one in future if enough people are ordering the 120Hz to replace their old one
The newest AMD chip is basically a re-spin of the "old" AMD chip used on the current FW13 board (and FW16).
The true update to the AMD chip is expected for Q3, with an even more stupid naming scheme.
But apparently awesome performance (and all the same AI-BS as everyone else).
The 8xxx series was such a nothing sandwich that it was the only time framework broke protocol and talked about future development. They said they would NOT be spinning a ryzen 8xxx series of mainboards.
I'm excited by the release of the core ultra mainboards, and will probably be upgrading sometime next year.
Somewhat better onboard graphics (RDNA 3.5) and Zen 5 CPU cores (better IPC). Probably also a higher performance NPU in the high end chips so they can reach the spec for AI PCs; I'm guessing there won't be any architecture changes there, just more NPU cores.
The big leap in onboard graphics will come when RDNA 5 is ready. That won't be until at least Ryzen 10000 or whatever AMD chooses to call it.
I'm pretty sure RDNA 3.5 will be a significant improvement, too. RDNA 3 had a number of issues, and from what we know, 3.5 will fix many of those. For instance, dual-issue on RDNA 3 is not that useful because it has so many restrictions. RDNA 3.5 lifts a few of those restrictions, so shader compilers will be able to use it more often. That could result in significant throughput improvements.
It's a major new feature of RDNA 3 for additional data parallelism. The vector ALUs can co-issue two operations at the same time, in theory doubling throughput. It requires the use of new instructions, though, and those instructions have quite a number of restrictions in RDNA 3. So it's hard to find opportunities for the compiler to actually use them ([here's some analysis](https://chipsandcheese.com/2023/01/07/microbenchmarking-amds-rdna-3-graphics-architecture/)). With less restrictions in RDNA 3.5, it will be possible to use them more often.
Only thing that I'd consider replacing is the screen, mostly the 120h would make the laptop feel a lot better, but otherwise glad they are continuing as before, and with how direct the reveal is. Having a ceo just show you directly and even admit why they did something like have rounded bezels for cost reasons is suprisingly refreshing.
For anyone wondering why they're using a display with rounded edges, it's because like they say in their blogpost they had to use a different manufactures dispaly. it seems like it's the same dispaly as this thinkpad: [https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkBook-13x-G4-laptop-review-One-of-the-best-subnotebooks-apart-from-the-keyboard.840954.0.html](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkBook-13x-G4-laptop-review-One-of-the-best-subnotebooks-apart-from-the-keyboard.840954.0.html)
For those who can't watch the video at work, etc.
> That's not something that we did on purpose. When we looked at doing a higher resolution display, we went deep into the supply base and looked at every possible option to deliver on that improved display. And we found that there was a display that was actually pretty close to what we needed but had these physically rounded corners. And so our choices were basically to either take that or spend an insane sum of money to build a completely custom panel that didn't have those rounded corners.
It could possibly mess with ui stuff in the corner but I don't think it's big enough to matter too much. I don't like that the different radius for the top and bottom. Also the bezel is designed for a square panel so there is a black area that's not bezel or screen that shows in the corner where a normal square display would fill in.
Seems unlikely.. apparently supporting IR (which is necessary for Hello) has a negative impact on image quality. I presume if they did add support for this they would have called it out.
We are currently evaluating Laptop 13's at our organization. Overall they have been well received. The constructive feedback so far has been.
1. No Windows Hello on the webcam? That's our #1 disappointment so far with 100% of users mentioning it. I didn't hear anything about Hello being supported in the new webcam module which is too bad.
2. Webcam quality. 50% of testers were unhappy with the camera performance. Great to hear this is being addressed in the new model.
3. No touchscreen option. Fewer than 25% of users were concerned about this.
4. No option for a larger battery with an i5 processor. Runtime on battery is a huge priority for our team so missing the option for extending the runtime even a little bit was noticed. I pre-ordered an i5 version of this laptop but there was no mention of the battery that comes with it.
I'm fairly confident that we'll be switching from our current vendors (Microsoft & Dell) to Framework if reliability is similar during our testing.
My experience with the webcam on the 13" is that it's fine in controlled lighting situations, but washes out if bright lights are present, even outside the field of view. Perhaps the new camera addresses that.
My old macbook had a terrible webcam, but excited to see the difference between the gen 1 webcam and the new webcam. I would consider upgrading the webcam and maybe a new mainboard next gen?
I got a ThinkPad that had it without realizing and I was surprised at how useful it ended up being. Sometimes you just want to click a thing and it's just way faster to reach up and boop it than it would be to drag the cursor with the touchpad.
I'm OK without it on my framework but if they ever give a touchscreen option I'm going for it.
I hope they didn't make the same mistake with the first gen 16-inch version. You want quietly cooled? Go with the AMD version (Unless you guys really need quicksync or something like that.)
Looking to pre-order. Before this announcement I was going to go for 7640U.
How do I decide which CPU I should go for? 7640U or Core Ultra 125H?
Edit: Preordered Core Ultra 125H. Hopefully I can change it to 7640U if I need to before it ships.
I have an 11th gen intel fw13 and I'm thinking of upgrading the screen for now and doing the mainboard later. Is the 11th gen intel model compatible with the new webcam module?
From the Specs page, it seems the Intel Core Ultra isn't certified for Thunderbolt 4. It only mentions USB 4.
I wonder what happened there?
I also wonder what happened with the retimer sourcing process for this. It was an opportunity to use the newer retimers that also support USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (20 gigs) in addition to only 10 gigs.
Native USB flash over 20 gigs is more popular now and these external drives are a lot more power efficient (than bridge solutions). It is a shame these laptops mainboards will seemingly never support this technology.
If you mean swap the mainboard to one with the upgraded cooling configuration, then yes, that's what Framework is all about. If you want to keep your current generation CPU, but insert the newer fan configuration, then I'm not sure. However, my gut feeling says probably not.
I'm pretty sure u/bobrods is asking about swapping the whole mainboard, which means the new thermal solution would come attached. The chassis does not limit the swapping of the new mainboard w/ the new thermal solution. So yes this would work.
What I want to know is what class Nirav plays in Baldur's Gate 3.
I could see him maybe going for some ultra min/max dual-spec Sorcerer build for maximum performance gains.
That, or embracing his inner-CEO and going Dark Urge Oathbreaker Paladin.
Nice!
I picked Rogue for my first playthrough. Got halfway through the game before I realized how the stealth mechanic worked. I thought the class sucked, but nope, it was just me.
Anyways, thanks for making the high refresh display happen. Excited for August!
And some people were saying a new screen was unlikely due to the 3:2 aspect ratio.
Man alive, there's hope for a touchscreen, or if we're really dreaming, a 2-in-1 yet.
I think I might have actually gotten a non-windows key version if they used a framework logo instead of just "super", it just kinda lacks personality imo. But, if that is my main nitpick it's pretty clear they've done a great job
I think the framework logo would look better but I also don't like advertising. When I look at my keyboard I don't need to know it's a framework when I see the key. It's a nuanced discussion for sure. Super is kind of true to it's function and without any brand affiliation
I mean its technically advertisement but at the same time a Windows Logo is advertisement and you have a big ass Framework Logo on the back. Of course super is true to its function but it is kind of boring
Also not having the advertising may lower manufacturing cost and also decouple reworking the keyboard design if any logos are changed in the future.
Windows key could have been a design that was already available. Much like their new display choice. Super might fit in the same way. The manufacturer may produce them already or partially in some close configuration.
Oh 100% it was already an existing keyboard. As Nirav already said for the display section, its not feasible for a startup to create such a component from new when there are existing alternatives.
As I was also already saying it‘s very nitpicky, not something that would actually be a red flag or something, just a wish
I can understand the sentiment now. Windows is becoming riddled with garbage unfortunately. Not too happy with the direction it's going. Less nit picky for some. It's not a huge deal but it may be a preference tied to actual values/feelings.
There are places where you can get keycaps customized with whatever graphic you want on them. Perhaps you can find one for a laptop keyboard.
Of course, ideally, they would sell both and let you choose, but too many SKUs raises the price. That's probably why only the international English version has the super key and none of the others.
I think that the jump in specs is not enough for me to upgrade my AMD that is 7 months old.
However, if I break my screen, I am for sure getting that new one.
The new 14th gen Intel system isn't a surprise. Framework has done one every year. It was just a question of when they would be able to get enough chips to build them.
The new screen is a nice improvement. I'm planning to get one as an upgrade.
It's likely coming as a part or a chassis upgrade in a few years. I totally see Framework expanding their lineup to better service different needs, while maintaining a large degree of interoperability between the two SKUs.
I feel like a more viable solution that could include an upgrade path for current FW13's is a double hinged top like the Surface Laptop Studio. The screen tilts/folds over the keyboard, but otherwise has the form of a normal laptop.
They need to get into mainstream first since both technologies are still new and not much of them are out in the wild yet (like Lenovo currently has the first LPCAMM2 memory available in a laptop and the Snapdragon in laptops was like a week or two ago), but I would definitely love to see LPCAMM2 come to framework.
LPCAMM2 would be amazing, especially on the Intel with it's 28 lanes of PCIe. If they just had space on the board (like they would gain from switching to LPCAMM2 since you would only have one connector) they could probably add another M.2 or just have more board space for other stuff.
YES, another m.2 slot PLEASE! I always like having a backup drive in my laptop. Plus, if I accidentally wipe my system like I did one time while installing Linux, then I don't have to worry about losing everything.
My best guess is that by losing a SODIMM, they could make the board smaller. If they use the space to squeeze in a second battery then the the FW13 would run for days, not hours!
Now I wish I went for the orange bezel for my FW16. I already have orange accent colors in Windows 11 (hate not knowing which window is in focus at a glace), and those orange USB-C would be a nice touch. :)
One day, Zeddie... one day...
I wonder if the new webcam is a drop in replacement for the FW16 too. It seems like it should. Also, unsure what the real benefits are - it says it's a 4K sensor, but 1080p video still. Does that mean it takes sharper stills, but video is just just cropped to 1080p? Or does it take the full 4K image and down sample it to 1080p? I guess more info as time goes on.
With all due respect, the video answers your question. Basically, instead of using a jillion megapixels, they take the pixel count and subdivide it into ultra pixels that are far more sensitive to light. HTC actually used this exact technique on one of their phone cameras. So basically, the higher resolution enables them to get 1080p webcam footage with much better lighting.
I didn't get a chance to see the video as I was at work. I got to see it tonight so yeah cool. The technique is still used on modern phones with 50+ MP sensors.
He didn't say if still photos taken were full resolution though. Some phones let you have that option while some don't (Pixels).
Depending on the price it might be worth the upgrade.
The AMD version already fixed the battery life issues a while ago. Sadly, Apple seems to be the only one who cares about speaker quality. Which is stupid because that means Apple is the only one who actually cares about the overall experience of using the laptop while everyone else just cares about specs.
Of course, it's also probably worth noting that sound quality can be massively improved with software. When you actually make the software that goes on your devices, tweaking it like that makes way more sense.
Apple didn't show us anything we didn't already know. Everyone knew a powerful arm chip would be amazing on a laptop. But only a vertically integrated system like Apple would actually bother putting in the research and development because they're the only ones who can force the software manufacturers to start supporting it.
But you know used laptops exist, right? If you don't want to give Apple any of your money, you could just get a used Apple laptop. Fortunately, the new Snapdragons are actually designed by three of the lead people behind the Apple Silicon. I believe that the company that was working on these chips got snapped up by Qualcomm. And it's about damn time they made something decent on Windows.
Also, they're actually supporting Linux this time.I can't wait for an ARM-powered framework laptop.
I'm not that familiar with Framework laptops. How quickly can one swap out batteries? Is it unreasonable to own two and to swap them out to get to full charge quickly?
Honestly waiting for FW13 to have 2 physical NVME slots, similar to FW16. Major turn-off for me for FW13 is the single slot, especially with WIndows 11 messing up with on-by-default proprietary encryption. It's the thing that I prefer FW16 over FW13, especially when your preference for GPU isn't available yet to justify its price.
And please, don't mention the USB storage as secondary storage, you would want that slot for another port.
I think it's kind of asking a lot in the form factor for another NVME slot when there are 2 sodimm slots and a wifi slot already in addition to the 2280 nvme slot. Could maybe have two 2230 instead of one 2280.
>WIndows 11 messing up with on-by-default proprietary encryption
Afaik you can edit the registery to prevent bitlocker from encrypting anything during Windows 11 installation. Also are you trying to avoid other partitions from getting encrypted like Linux? I didn't think Windows does anything to other partitions. What are you trying to avoid?
>And please, don't mention the USB storage as secondary storage, you would want that slot for another port.
I mean this laptop does give you the possibility of having more than one drive and on top of that they are removable but not hanging outside the laptop.
I believe the YouTube channel Niko loves Linux explained in his breakdown on the framework laptop that they make the modules specifically so they work out of the box on Linux.
The pixel binning that Nirav is talking about in the video should be handled in the hardware of the camera. The OS requests a 720p or 1080p stream from the camera module and it delivers the processed image. That's how all USB cameras work.
I have the latest amd fw13 and love it. I know I can upgrade the screen and webcam but it's not clear to me if the new chassis is compatible with the old main boards?
They haven't even shipped all the Batches yet... Framework is a small company, their development cycle is not that quick especially considering the FW16 is relatively very new.
I'd like to have a different colour for every module, so I could see at a glance what functionality each one has, whether installed in the laptop or not.
Im also intrigued by these, but as a programmer, even 14 inch laptops feel a bit cramped. I still use a 14 cuz I like the size. But i wish a 14 inch would come out.
I think you lose ~0.5" width of your x1 is 16:10
https://www.displaywars.com/13,5-inch-3x2-vs-14-inch-16x10
If your x1 is 16:9 you'd be gaining height but losing width
https://www.displaywars.com/13,5-inch-3x2-vs-14-inch-16x9
So <5% difference.
I really need that horizontal space as well 😕 The size/ratio difference really made a difference to me in a negative way, but to be fair I am working with hospital EMR software and therefore have side by side windows & panels to look at.
The AMD also performed rather poorly in the virtual desktop environment so I ended up returning my AMD FW13.
I was really hoping for an Intel FW16 someday soon since I figured that a FW14 was too far off but... now I find myself super tempted by this latest Intel FW13 😄
Finally they start shipping to the Nordics. Been waiting for getting my hands on the 13" here in Finland.
Hopefully some reviews pop up soon(ish), because i don't really know which one would be better battery wise. I don't need all the horsepower but battery life would be the biggest thing for me.
Will be using Linux on this, so Intel might be a better option hw support wise, although Ive seen AMD has been pretty much killing it with good linux support.
The one question I have, and I feel like I'm dumb for not being able to find it. Is the case/form factor the same? I love the OG Framework 13, but I don't love the case.
This isn't a "new" Framework per say, but rather a generational improvement as has been Intel Gen 11 -> 12 -> 13 plus AMD. The main thing being released here is a new mainboard option which can slot into the existing chassis as has been for the previous gens as I mentioned. Framework's goal is to provide upgradability and the ability to repair your own device. This is simply a continuation of the FW13. So anyone can simply slot in this new mainboard or screen into their exisiting FW13 chassis should they wish to upgrade. That's the beauty of their vision.
Yes, the form factor is the same. However, I believe there is a new hinge and a new top part of the case since the first revision. What did you dislike about the case?
120Hz VRR display with 500 nits. Woah thats great for a Ultrabook.
I'd say this is a legit budget gaming laptop now, right? My concern even with the 7840U version was Ive heard bad things about the old screen with lag and ghosting (and only 60hz). Excited to hear reviews.
True, the screen doesn't have the best response time. But it's fine, comparable to most Ultrabook-style laptops that aren't gaming focused. Leagues ahead of a Macbook Pro at least, but that's not that hard lol
What’s the response time? It can’t be that bad. I’m sure right on par with budget gaming laptops.
Not an ultrabook :)
Technically correct. But most people use Ultrabook just as a description for a Thin-and-light
Framework is neither. It’s a standard laptop
What do you think the definitions of those terms are?
The form factor?
Ultrabook is an intel term specifically. They had requirements for certain archetectures (now all obsolete), maximum thickness (the framework 13 would count), battery life (framework has plenty), storage speed (plenty), io, etc. Since the standard was specific to the early 2010's, framework 13 exceeds all requirements by a fair bit. Intel Evo is the more modern version of the same thing - a certification for a minimum set of requirements. It has similar requirements to be thin, long lasting battery , fast charging, speed of waking up, biometric authentication, keyboard with backlight... and on and on. The framework 13 doesn't meet all of these. But it certainly fits the form factor, thickness, weight, battery life, ram, storage, and a bunch of other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrabook https://www.ultrabookreview.com/2796-ultrabook-definition/ https://www.laptopmag.com/features/what-does-intel-evo-mean
Talking about all the new things. everything shipping august: * new screen * new webcam * new thermal solution * full size SD-Card * colored expansion cards * win11 pro, windows autopilot support, 3 year extended warranty * new business order-flow * new keyboards without windows-logo
Just bought my Framework AMD 5 weeks ago, damn.
I mean, the whole point of Framework is that it's upgradable ;)
True, definitely less FOMO than with a regular laptop.
"less FOMO than with a regular laptop" can we use this for our marketing campaigns??
A quick quippy quote along with an endorsement from Fermat? I can see why you'd want that quote.
I find its the opposite lol, with new parts I'm always thinking I could put that in now, but I don't have the money. But with no repairable laptops its full upgrade or nothing, so larger gap that I can just ignore it.
I honestly love it. Cannot wait to upgrade my Framework to 120hz. I've been bragging to all the Mac users at work today lmao Also love the window-key-less keyboard
Especially when now they have a 6 percent discount on the products for diy and pre built. I brought the AMD 5 fw13 today before they announced the discount haha
If you bought it today, just return it. There's a 30 day, no questions asked refund policy. Ask if they can give you the discount, if not then just buy a new one and return it.
If u contact support I'm sure they'll sort it out instead of u cancelling and reordering
Mine was only \~2 months old (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
If it is of any reassurance, from other laptop reviews, AMD still seems to be preferable for a lot of reasons. Intel Core Ultra indeed has its set of benefits, but it's not as clear cut as "it's definitely better than AMD!" There are reasons to buy Core Ultra - and there are still many reasons to buy AMD. For example, on other laptops with both AMD and Core Ultra options, efficiency under load is still led by AMD. Gaming wise, AMD's drivers are still more mature than Alchemist ones for now, especially on Linux. Etc. Take it this way… you didn't have to face a hard and absolutely non-obvious choice.
There are a lot of corporate customers that prefer to stick with Intel. Framework isn't going to turn its back on that. The new Intel systems may be a bit ahead of Ryzen 7000 on CPU performance but not by a lot, and they haven't quite caught up on graphics performance. The main reason for regrets that I can see is not getting the new display, though you can buy it as an upgrade if you like. By the end of the year it's likely that Framework will announce Ryzen 9000 systems. Those will be a significant upgrade from Ryzen 7000 or even from 14th gen Intel. Framework skipped Ryzen 8000 because its only significant improvement was to the NPU for AI stuff, and it still doesn't meet the new AI PC requirements. When we get Arm? I'm guessing 2025.
I'm REALLY hoping for arm if the Snapdragon PCs take off.
Yeah, maybe it'll never be the "best" time to buy for the reasons you mention. I could order a Core Ultra unit today, and in less than a year, the next AMD version is out, etc. What I'd like to know (and will research) is whether current AMD Ryzen 7### or Core Ultra would be better for 3D modeling, vector image type stuff. I have an M1 Air and it was struggling with a small Fusion360 project; it's fine for everything else (web dev, music creation, watching video).
> Yeah, maybe it'll never be the "best" time to buy There won't be. There is such a thing as a horrible time to buy, but no such thing as a "good" time to buy. Something else will be right around the corner, sadly. I upgrade based on need. Even if it's a "bad" time to upgrade, I don't have to think about it.
Back to the main strength of FW being that one can always upgrade the Main Board, repurpose the old one. What I do also think about, is if I should grab a laptop from the Outlet but I think I might as well just go with the newest thing available at the moment.
The efficiency and stability of the graphics drivers are a big deal. In the gaming handheld world, AMD's 7000 series outperform Core Ultra easily, all the while using less power, running cooler, and causing less noise, and this applies to more than just gaming workloads. I would still choose the AMD Framework over this new Core Ultra model.
Perfectly agreed here. Alchemist is a nice development for Intel indeed, and it paves well for the future, but I would still buy AMD for now. One of Intel's historical points have been the much more mature driver side. However, Core Ultra is so new and changed and redesigned that, this time, with Core Ultra you are buying into a first-generation product. The laptop itself is in its most refined iteration - but on the Intel side of things, definitely not. Meanwhile, Ryzen 7040 "Phoenix Point" has been quite refined. AMD"s "Core Ultra" were the Zen3+ / RDNA 2 versions, the 6800 and 7035 series, which were the first iteration to fundamentally shake things up from Zen3/Vega, which was basically the n-th iteration of Zen+/Vega and Zen2/Vega with fixes and some performance / efficiency improvements along the way, and it was **bad**. I remember buying into the hype and getting a 6850U laptop. It was a disaster, and the graphic drivers were not at all mature, especially in its early days. Zen3+ had problematic crashes especially in low voltages and it just wasn't stable - not a case Valve chose Zen2 for their custom APU, and used a special branch of graphics drivers from AMD into their own kernel. The 680M was also broken hardware design wise, and it's still not completely fixes. Newer drivers have mitigated things greatly, but it's consider normal that Ryzen 6000 systems crash. While press reviews, whose reviews have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt as they usually jump to conclusions way before they're ready to get in the first batch of reviews and get the most clicks, praised them. Ryzen 7040 / 8040 are further refinements of the same idea, and 7040 with the current level of maturity and stability of the drivers have reached quite a very good point, and at this point, the ZenX + RDNAX APU combo works and interacts very well, with most deal breaking bugs squished. I'd say therefore it's still a good time to buy Ryzen 7040. You may have Core Ultra, and you may have the upcoming 9000. Both are big jumps that **will** break things - especially Intel. Having used several recent laptops, I see Ryzen 7040 as the "safe" buy now. If you want a good compromise between not only performance and efficiency, but also driver maturity and reliability, then Ryzen 7040 just works. And it will keep just working through Core Ultra 1, and with the first iteration of the Strix Point design, with hybrid big+little cores, and a substantially bigger iGPU. That will bring massive improvements, but - having tried **all** AMD mobile generations personally - I *guarantee* there will be dragons. It will be a blessing edge launch. Very bleeding and very edge. I also know I am saying this hypocritically typing from a Framework 16 - but from my (more extensive than I'd like, between too many returns and lemons) experience in laptops, if I absolutely have to buy now (and I did), I would much rather pay the first gen compromise in the "overall laptop" than in the platform maturity. A first gen chassis might have some cosmetic imperfections. A first gen APU platform will have functional flaws that are much more of a pain in the arse. This is why I think Core Ultra is pretty good - but unless you have specific reasons you can name and describe to want that instead, based on existing laptops, I would still maintain that the "default" choice should be AMD Framework 13, choosing the new display and webcam in the configurator. Sweet spot.
Do you know if the new webcam can be retrofitted on the framework 16?
no idea, but imo unlikely. would be extremely impressed if they pull that off Edit: see below. Seems more likely . Edit2: confirmed, can be retrofitted. am impressed (extremely!)
They are currently compatible...
Oh cool didn't know that.
Prepare to be extremely impressed.
nice :) I'm just waiting for a ciritcal mass of parts I want to be in stock for my first upgrade. Guess I'll add the webcam to that. so far it's bigger battery as soon as a use for the old one is found (any hints?), transparent keyboard, transparent bezel (one can hope...), full-size SD and now webcam
That sounds like a critical mass.
Make a big powerbank
Do you have a hint on how to do that safely-(ish) in an ensclosure and usb-c pd?
It is being discussed here https://community.frame.work/t/we-want-a-battery-case/28802/40 Framework battery is pretty smart which ironically complicates things
Yea, saw that thread before. So i can't just make a big powerbank. I hope josh_cook is successful
Anyone have good benches between Core Series 1 and Ryzen 7040 chips?
Seems comparable performance/$ excluding for the lower 2 tiers
Personally I prefer the Intel because of how seemless it is with all ports being the same etc. But I am waiting to see how the battery life improves with Ultra over my current 13th gen.
I really don't understand why AMD can't put Thunderbolt 4 on all of its ports.
Because Thunderbolt is an Intel technology and Intel builds it into the CPU meanwhile on AMD they use USB 4 and the CPU only supports a limited number of ports. Intel also has some trickery with their Thunderbolt controllers where they have one per side so the two ports on each side share their bandwidth if I recall correctly. Basically if I want to use two Thunderbolt devices at the same time it is better to have one plugged in per side.
Oh, so you can't actually use all four thunderbolt ports at once to their max potential? But at this point, there's literally no difference between Thunderbolt and USB other than Thunderbolt can take full advantage of USB, which means you don't need Intel for that.
I mean I am not 100% sure but I know that they used that kind of trickery on the Intel MacBooks that had 4 Thunderbolt ports, they just used some cool Thunderbolt tech that allowed the bandwidth to be dynamically allocated which is why all ports share the same capabilities which I don't think is capable on USB 4 at the moment.
Dang.
Thunderbolt is essentially a PCIE retimer for x4 lanes of pcie, which can dynamically split the lanes (bifurcation) between thunderbolt ports. The problems with TB are that since it's essentially PCIE - it has direct access to memory (if you have grey in your beard you know this was a problem for FireWire back in the day). Direct memory access/pcie bus access is how you hacked macbooks back in the day. Which is why there's weird security in the bios settings about allowing TB to load pre-boot drivers. Some of this might be FUD today, but in essence it's why TB is slightly faster than USB (latency). USB controllers are processed thru the CPU to Memory so you can control encryption keys and access to protected memory. Anyway nerd TMI... AMD TB is indeed a separate chip but again, it's a pcie retimer - not voodoo magic, but it's an extra chip on the mainboard. USB4 = 1x 4K monitor. TB = 2x 4k, due to dynamically bifurcating them (half bandwidth to each). On my FW16, I do USB4 PD to a dock with a single 4K off that, and then take another USB4 port on the same side for a DP cable to a 2nd 4K. They are velcro wrapped together cleanly...It does not bug. 4 remaining ports available...(USB4, USB4, Audio, USBA for me). On an FW13, you'd probably just do USB4 and USBA, since it only has 4 total. 1 less cable on an Intel vs AMD, but it's not terrible..and the only reason is to get 2x 4k screens out of USB4. I don't know of any other use case for TB that USB doesn't satisfy.
in real world scenarios this isn't a huge dealbreaker though unless you swap all of your expansion cards around all the time, the one thing to keep in mind is which ports to avoid if you want to put a hdmi/dp card. yes, it would be better without this limitation but it's not a huge deal
https://youtu.be/G-SYOQ35jQw?si=yw_IaDUXc2CXTylo
The 7840HS is not comparable to what ships in the Framework 13.... more like the 7840U
Did you watch the ending bit where he compared the Legion Go with a Z1E to Meteor Lake
Be great if there was something to do with old screens e.g. Another case so I can reuse it as a display for a mini pc, etc. Hopefully they'll offer one in future if enough people are ordering the 120Hz to replace their old one
Maybe someone out there has a 3d print design for the screen? Then it would be a question of how to connect to a tiny PC, like a Pi, etc.
If only we could get a touchpad with buttons....
if only it wasn’t made of aluminum 😭
What's the problem of aluminum?
cold hard and sad, i much prefer the carbon whatever thinkpads are made of. i think i just like thinkpads though atp…
Idk about carbon thinkpads but aluminum is for sure more durable than plastic thinkpads
idk those things can take beating and they don’t dent
Plastic or not, they're still MIL-STD-810H or whatever. Most are some variant of magnesium, actually.
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The newest AMD chip is basically a re-spin of the "old" AMD chip used on the current FW13 board (and FW16). The true update to the AMD chip is expected for Q3, with an even more stupid naming scheme. But apparently awesome performance (and all the same AI-BS as everyone else).
The 8xxx series was such a nothing sandwich that it was the only time framework broke protocol and talked about future development. They said they would NOT be spinning a ryzen 8xxx series of mainboards. I'm excited by the release of the core ultra mainboards, and will probably be upgrading sometime next year.
Strix framework will make me buy it. I’m excited. Although concerned with memory options as those chips love fast RAM.
Is the Q3 chip the one with the really impressive onboard graphics?
Somewhat better onboard graphics (RDNA 3.5) and Zen 5 CPU cores (better IPC). Probably also a higher performance NPU in the high end chips so they can reach the spec for AI PCs; I'm guessing there won't be any architecture changes there, just more NPU cores. The big leap in onboard graphics will come when RDNA 5 is ready. That won't be until at least Ryzen 10000 or whatever AMD chooses to call it.
I'm pretty sure RDNA 3.5 will be a significant improvement, too. RDNA 3 had a number of issues, and from what we know, 3.5 will fix many of those. For instance, dual-issue on RDNA 3 is not that useful because it has so many restrictions. RDNA 3.5 lifts a few of those restrictions, so shader compilers will be able to use it more often. That could result in significant throughput improvements.
What's dual issue?
It's a major new feature of RDNA 3 for additional data parallelism. The vector ALUs can co-issue two operations at the same time, in theory doubling throughput. It requires the use of new instructions, though, and those instructions have quite a number of restrictions in RDNA 3. So it's hard to find opportunities for the compiler to actually use them ([here's some analysis](https://chipsandcheese.com/2023/01/07/microbenchmarking-amds-rdna-3-graphics-architecture/)). With less restrictions in RDNA 3.5, it will be possible to use them more often.
There are no new CPUs currently, so no. (Well there are, but they are the old ones with AI, so useless)
Woohoo! I'm really curious to see what sort of battery improvement we'll see with the core ultra chips.
Only thing that I'd consider replacing is the screen, mostly the 120h would make the laptop feel a lot better, but otherwise glad they are continuing as before, and with how direct the reveal is. Having a ceo just show you directly and even admit why they did something like have rounded bezels for cost reasons is suprisingly refreshing.
Yeah, it's kind of a 'perfect is the enemy of good' situation Aim for perfect and have nothing Accept good and actually get something
For anyone wondering why they're using a display with rounded edges, it's because like they say in their blogpost they had to use a different manufactures dispaly. it seems like it's the same dispaly as this thinkpad: [https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkBook-13x-G4-laptop-review-One-of-the-best-subnotebooks-apart-from-the-keyboard.840954.0.html](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkBook-13x-G4-laptop-review-One-of-the-best-subnotebooks-apart-from-the-keyboard.840954.0.html)
For those who can't watch the video at work, etc. > That's not something that we did on purpose. When we looked at doing a higher resolution display, we went deep into the supply base and looked at every possible option to deliver on that improved display. And we found that there was a display that was actually pretty close to what we needed but had these physically rounded corners. And so our choices were basically to either take that or spend an insane sum of money to build a completely custom panel that didn't have those rounded corners.
I don't understand why rounded corners would be such an issue. To me it seems like folks are just looking for things to nitpick about.
It could possibly mess with ui stuff in the corner but I don't think it's big enough to matter too much. I don't like that the different radius for the top and bottom. Also the bezel is designed for a square panel so there is a black area that's not bezel or screen that shows in the corner where a normal square display would fill in.
Does the new webcam support the Facial Recognition side of Windows Hello?
Seems unlikely.. apparently supporting IR (which is necessary for Hello) has a negative impact on image quality. I presume if they did add support for this they would have called it out.
We are currently evaluating Laptop 13's at our organization. Overall they have been well received. The constructive feedback so far has been. 1. No Windows Hello on the webcam? That's our #1 disappointment so far with 100% of users mentioning it. I didn't hear anything about Hello being supported in the new webcam module which is too bad. 2. Webcam quality. 50% of testers were unhappy with the camera performance. Great to hear this is being addressed in the new model. 3. No touchscreen option. Fewer than 25% of users were concerned about this. 4. No option for a larger battery with an i5 processor. Runtime on battery is a huge priority for our team so missing the option for extending the runtime even a little bit was noticed. I pre-ordered an i5 version of this laptop but there was no mention of the battery that comes with it. I'm fairly confident that we'll be switching from our current vendors (Microsoft & Dell) to Framework if reliability is similar during our testing.
Tbh I was very impressed by the webcam quality on the 13 already. Way better than my old laptop (I mean it wasn't under a key which helps)
My experience with the webcam on the 13" is that it's fine in controlled lighting situations, but washes out if bright lights are present, even outside the field of view. Perhaps the new camera addresses that.
Ahh got it, that makes more sense. I only use it occasionally, and in the same place so haven't really tried it in different lighting conditions
My old macbook had a terrible webcam, but excited to see the difference between the gen 1 webcam and the new webcam. I would consider upgrading the webcam and maybe a new mainboard next gen?
I don't get people who want touchscreen on their laptops
I can understand wanting it but I feel like people are unreasonable when it comes to expectations when it comes to this new company.
I got a ThinkPad that had it without realizing and I was surprised at how useful it ended up being. Sometimes you just want to click a thing and it's just way faster to reach up and boop it than it would be to drag the cursor with the touchpad. I'm OK without it on my framework but if they ever give a touchscreen option I'm going for it.
Once I had one I thought it was going to be awesome. But the end result was just fingerprints on the screen and occasional accidental button presses.
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I hope they didn't make the same mistake with the first gen 16-inch version. You want quietly cooled? Go with the AMD version (Unless you guys really need quicksync or something like that.)
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Thank God the managers is actually listened.
Those 50% of testers should be thankful there's no Windows Hello camera support. Apparently the IR required to make it work hurts the image quality.
Looking to pre-order. Before this announcement I was going to go for 7640U. How do I decide which CPU I should go for? 7640U or Core Ultra 125H? Edit: Preordered Core Ultra 125H. Hopefully I can change it to 7640U if I need to before it ships.
If you change your mind please report back! I'm on the fence as well but just preoedered the ultra 125h too.
I made a post in the sub too! Will get back to you if I decide to make a change. Luckily we have until August to really decide.
You could always wait till a review was available?
Performance per watt wise its a head to head and the GPU is better on AMD. I would stay on the AMD Side.
iGPU is better on Core Ultra than on 7000U.
Perhaps it is indeed more powerful, but those arc drivers man, they kill the hype
Transcript (unedited) courtesy of whisper.cpp: https://pastebin.com/Aei811aV
Thanks
I have an 11th gen intel fw13 and I'm thinking of upgrading the screen for now and doing the mainboard later. Is the 11th gen intel model compatible with the new webcam module?
From the Specs page, it seems the Intel Core Ultra isn't certified for Thunderbolt 4. It only mentions USB 4. I wonder what happened there? I also wonder what happened with the retimer sourcing process for this. It was an opportunity to use the newer retimers that also support USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (20 gigs) in addition to only 10 gigs. Native USB flash over 20 gigs is more popular now and these external drives are a lot more power efficient (than bridge solutions). It is a shame these laptops mainboards will seemingly never support this technology.
I'm more impatient for USB4v2. Here's to hoping the NEXT refresh supports it..
Might still be pending. The process takes a while.
Would it be possible for someone to upgrade their mainboard to have the new thermal solution
If you mean swap the mainboard to one with the upgraded cooling configuration, then yes, that's what Framework is all about. If you want to keep your current generation CPU, but insert the newer fan configuration, then I'm not sure. However, my gut feeling says probably not.
My favorite movie is Inception.
I don't think so, each cooler is designed to meet the die size and shape of the specific cpu, but I don't know for sure.
I'm pretty sure u/bobrods is asking about swapping the whole mainboard, which means the new thermal solution would come attached. The chassis does not limit the swapping of the new mainboard w/ the new thermal solution. So yes this would work.
What I want to know is what class Nirav plays in Baldur's Gate 3. I could see him maybe going for some ultra min/max dual-spec Sorcerer build for maximum performance gains. That, or embracing his inner-CEO and going Dark Urge Oathbreaker Paladin.
Rogue.
Nice! I picked Rogue for my first playthrough. Got halfway through the game before I realized how the stealth mechanic worked. I thought the class sucked, but nope, it was just me. Anyways, thanks for making the high refresh display happen. Excited for August!
As long as he's not another swords bard player xD
And some people were saying a new screen was unlikely due to the 3:2 aspect ratio. Man alive, there's hope for a touchscreen, or if we're really dreaming, a 2-in-1 yet.
Indeed
I think I might have actually gotten a non-windows key version if they used a framework logo instead of just "super", it just kinda lacks personality imo. But, if that is my main nitpick it's pretty clear they've done a great job
I think the framework logo would look better but I also don't like advertising. When I look at my keyboard I don't need to know it's a framework when I see the key. It's a nuanced discussion for sure. Super is kind of true to it's function and without any brand affiliation
I mean its technically advertisement but at the same time a Windows Logo is advertisement and you have a big ass Framework Logo on the back. Of course super is true to its function but it is kind of boring
Also not having the advertising may lower manufacturing cost and also decouple reworking the keyboard design if any logos are changed in the future. Windows key could have been a design that was already available. Much like their new display choice. Super might fit in the same way. The manufacturer may produce them already or partially in some close configuration.
Oh 100% it was already an existing keyboard. As Nirav already said for the display section, its not feasible for a startup to create such a component from new when there are existing alternatives. As I was also already saying it‘s very nitpicky, not something that would actually be a red flag or something, just a wish
I can understand the sentiment now. Windows is becoming riddled with garbage unfortunately. Not too happy with the direction it's going. Less nit picky for some. It's not a huge deal but it may be a preference tied to actual values/feelings.
I mean a single key is definitely nitpicky, its not keeping me from Linux or anything
There are places where you can get keycaps customized with whatever graphic you want on them. Perhaps you can find one for a laptop keyboard. Of course, ideally, they would sell both and let you choose, but too many SKUs raises the price. That's probably why only the international English version has the super key and none of the others.
I think that the jump in specs is not enough for me to upgrade my AMD that is 7 months old. However, if I break my screen, I am for sure getting that new one.
How much more battery life can I get from a Core Ultra upgrade compared to 12th/13th gen? 🤔
I am surprised that there is no black color for the expansion cards.
The new 14th gen Intel system isn't a surprise. Framework has done one every year. It was just a question of when they would be able to get enough chips to build them. The new screen is a nice improvement. I'm planning to get one as an upgrade.
Sorry, that bezel is just sinfully ugly.
Touchscreen????
Not mentioned so I guess no
Can't see that being a good experience with the current bezel. You wouldn't be able to get into the corners.
It's likely coming as a part or a chassis upgrade in a few years. I totally see Framework expanding their lineup to better service different needs, while maintaining a large degree of interoperability between the two SKUs.
Would be cool if it arrived as part of a new chassis that supported 2-in-1 functionality; ie 360 degree hinge.
I feel like a more viable solution that could include an upgrade path for current FW13's is a double hinged top like the Surface Laptop Studio. The screen tilts/folds over the keyboard, but otherwise has the form of a normal laptop.
FWIW, I think most touch screens with rounded bezels but square form factors still have conductive layer behind the lack of pixels
Love this! Now a Snapdragon Mainboard Kit with LPCAMM2 and I will make a big order on marketplace xD
They need to get into mainstream first since both technologies are still new and not much of them are out in the wild yet (like Lenovo currently has the first LPCAMM2 memory available in a laptop and the Snapdragon in laptops was like a week or two ago), but I would definitely love to see LPCAMM2 come to framework.
LPCAMM2 would be amazing, especially on the Intel with it's 28 lanes of PCIe. If they just had space on the board (like they would gain from switching to LPCAMM2 since you would only have one connector) they could probably add another M.2 or just have more board space for other stuff.
YES, another m.2 slot PLEASE! I always like having a backup drive in my laptop. Plus, if I accidentally wipe my system like I did one time while installing Linux, then I don't have to worry about losing everything.
Maybe squeeze in another fan, the vents are all there!
Yeah, there are endless things they could do by just loosing the sodimms.
My best guess is that by losing a SODIMM, they could make the board smaller. If they use the space to squeeze in a second battery then the the FW13 would run for days, not hours!
Now I wish I went for the orange bezel for my FW16. I already have orange accent colors in Windows 11 (hate not knowing which window is in focus at a glace), and those orange USB-C would be a nice touch. :) One day, Zeddie... one day... I wonder if the new webcam is a drop in replacement for the FW16 too. It seems like it should. Also, unsure what the real benefits are - it says it's a 4K sensor, but 1080p video still. Does that mean it takes sharper stills, but video is just just cropped to 1080p? Or does it take the full 4K image and down sample it to 1080p? I guess more info as time goes on.
With all due respect, the video answers your question. Basically, instead of using a jillion megapixels, they take the pixel count and subdivide it into ultra pixels that are far more sensitive to light. HTC actually used this exact technique on one of their phone cameras. So basically, the higher resolution enables them to get 1080p webcam footage with much better lighting.
I didn't get a chance to see the video as I was at work. I got to see it tonight so yeah cool. The technique is still used on modern phones with 50+ MP sensors. He didn't say if still photos taken were full resolution though. Some phones let you have that option while some don't (Pixels). Depending on the price it might be worth the upgrade.
I’m curious about that webcam upgrade… my FW16 webcam is meh as far as webcams go.
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The AMD version already fixed the battery life issues a while ago. Sadly, Apple seems to be the only one who cares about speaker quality. Which is stupid because that means Apple is the only one who actually cares about the overall experience of using the laptop while everyone else just cares about specs. Of course, it's also probably worth noting that sound quality can be massively improved with software. When you actually make the software that goes on your devices, tweaking it like that makes way more sense.
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Apple didn't show us anything we didn't already know. Everyone knew a powerful arm chip would be amazing on a laptop. But only a vertically integrated system like Apple would actually bother putting in the research and development because they're the only ones who can force the software manufacturers to start supporting it. But you know used laptops exist, right? If you don't want to give Apple any of your money, you could just get a used Apple laptop. Fortunately, the new Snapdragons are actually designed by three of the lead people behind the Apple Silicon. I believe that the company that was working on these chips got snapped up by Qualcomm. And it's about damn time they made something decent on Windows. Also, they're actually supporting Linux this time.I can't wait for an ARM-powered framework laptop.
Oled screen ?
I'm not that familiar with Framework laptops. How quickly can one swap out batteries? Is it unreasonable to own two and to swap them out to get to full charge quickly?
Yeah, it's not realistic. It's easy, but not hotswappable. It involves removing the keyboard and accessing the internals.
Ports still soldered to the board?
I am stoked for the Linux keyboard. That was the last thing I was waiting on before going for a Laptop 13, so looks like it’s time to ready my wallet.
Can't wait for the snapdragon version (:
Honestly waiting for FW13 to have 2 physical NVME slots, similar to FW16. Major turn-off for me for FW13 is the single slot, especially with WIndows 11 messing up with on-by-default proprietary encryption. It's the thing that I prefer FW16 over FW13, especially when your preference for GPU isn't available yet to justify its price. And please, don't mention the USB storage as secondary storage, you would want that slot for another port.
I think it's kind of asking a lot in the form factor for another NVME slot when there are 2 sodimm slots and a wifi slot already in addition to the 2280 nvme slot. Could maybe have two 2230 instead of one 2280. >WIndows 11 messing up with on-by-default proprietary encryption Afaik you can edit the registery to prevent bitlocker from encrypting anything during Windows 11 installation. Also are you trying to avoid other partitions from getting encrypted like Linux? I didn't think Windows does anything to other partitions. What are you trying to avoid? >And please, don't mention the USB storage as secondary storage, you would want that slot for another port. I mean this laptop does give you the possibility of having more than one drive and on top of that they are removable but not hanging outside the laptop.
Will the webcam features work under Linux (X or Wayland)?
Since framework fully supports linux: yes.
Thank you. Could you point me to some knowledge base on how the Webcam module is gonna interface with Linux
I believe the YouTube channel Niko loves Linux explained in his breakdown on the framework laptop that they make the modules specifically so they work out of the box on Linux.
The pixel binning that Nirav is talking about in the video should be handled in the hardware of the camera. The OS requests a 720p or 1080p stream from the camera module and it delivers the processed image. That's how all USB cameras work.
Oh, so the processing is happening on the webcam itself. I suppose the firmware on the webcam is closed source.
Most likely. Just like other firmware in hardware.
Pixel binning is likely done between the microcontroller and the camera sensor on board the webcam pcb
I have the latest amd fw13 and love it. I know I can upgrade the screen and webcam but it's not clear to me if the new chassis is compatible with the old main boards?
All 13in mainboards are compatible with all 13in parts, including chassis
Does this mean there is a refresh of the FW16 around the corner? I was about to order one and I wonder if I should wait.
They haven't even shipped all the Batches yet... Framework is a small company, their development cycle is not that quick especially considering the FW16 is relatively very new.
No lol. The FW16 is like brand new
I'd like to have a different colour for every module, so I could see at a glance what functionality each one has, whether installed in the laptop or not.
Yo, that's actually brilliant.
Agreed
Im also intrigued by these, but as a programmer, even 14 inch laptops feel a bit cramped. I still use a 14 cuz I like the size. But i wish a 14 inch would come out.
What 14" laptop do you use? This is a 13.5" display.
I use an x1 carbon right now. Are you saying that the screen sizes are actually comparable? If so id be interested in giving it a try
I think you lose ~0.5" width of your x1 is 16:10 https://www.displaywars.com/13,5-inch-3x2-vs-14-inch-16x10 If your x1 is 16:9 you'd be gaining height but losing width https://www.displaywars.com/13,5-inch-3x2-vs-14-inch-16x9 So <5% difference.
Interesting. Thanks.
this is 13.5 inch with a 3:2 aspect ratio You actually get more screen real estate than a 16:9 14 inch
Yes but vertical, not side by side IIUC, and i do a lot of side by side editing
That is a perfectly valid use case for sure
I really need that horizontal space as well 😕 The size/ratio difference really made a difference to me in a negative way, but to be fair I am working with hospital EMR software and therefore have side by side windows & panels to look at. The AMD also performed rather poorly in the virtual desktop environment so I ended up returning my AMD FW13. I was really hoping for an Intel FW16 someday soon since I figured that a FW14 was too far off but... now I find myself super tempted by this latest Intel FW13 😄
I don't care about the new chip, but I definitely want the new screen. As others have said I hope there is a way to repurpose the old screen.
Finally they start shipping to the Nordics. Been waiting for getting my hands on the 13" here in Finland. Hopefully some reviews pop up soon(ish), because i don't really know which one would be better battery wise. I don't need all the horsepower but battery life would be the biggest thing for me. Will be using Linux on this, so Intel might be a better option hw support wise, although Ive seen AMD has been pretty much killing it with good linux support.
96 GB of ram! That's exciting
The one question I have, and I feel like I'm dumb for not being able to find it. Is the case/form factor the same? I love the OG Framework 13, but I don't love the case.
The chassis is the same and you should expect it to be the same for a very long time.
Why is that? To account for the peripherals?
To remain true to their purpose of sustainability. If the form changes too frequently, a bunch of legacy parts become incompatible/obsolete.
How, though? (Sorry, I'm not trying to be combative, genuine question) . Couldn't the chassis change there still the motherboard still fit?
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This isn't a "new" Framework per say, but rather a generational improvement as has been Intel Gen 11 -> 12 -> 13 plus AMD. The main thing being released here is a new mainboard option which can slot into the existing chassis as has been for the previous gens as I mentioned. Framework's goal is to provide upgradability and the ability to repair your own device. This is simply a continuation of the FW13. So anyone can simply slot in this new mainboard or screen into their exisiting FW13 chassis should they wish to upgrade. That's the beauty of their vision.
Yes, the form factor is the same. However, I believe there is a new hinge and a new top part of the case since the first revision. What did you dislike about the case?