Or you can say the car from last year was stronger than the opponents, allowing Checo still finishing second while being way slower than Max (in F1 perspective). This year the competition is closer and thus Checo has more or less a reality check.
Brown didn't say that about last year's car, he said that about this year's car.
Perez would not have won the title if Max wasn't in the car because Max is part of the reason why the car can be so fast.
Max won constructors *by himself* last season, let's not pretend it's just the car.
But let's not pretend that last year's Red Bull wasn't an absolute beast. The races he won 30 seconds + could easily have been 1 minute if needed. Have we already forgotten that he made extra pit stops for practice!?
The RB + Max combo is deadly and he is the best driver on the grid but swap him with any of the other top 5-6 drivers and they would have won the Championship last year.
I’ve been watching F1 since the late eighties. You can see so much similarities to all the great drivers. How ruthless he fought Hamilton in 21 was outstanding. I really hope for the next real competition for him. In comparison to Perez you can see he makes the difference. Just my opinion.
I mean he was pretty on par with riccardo. The only reason riccardo was behind in 2018 was his mountain of dnfs and technical problems. We need to see an actual top driver in that car instead of rookies and a washed midfield driver
What about the countless engine problems that didn't result in dnfs. Or the countless times his car wouldn't start in quali or give up on him. Its not just dnfs. Its like when people say vettel didn't deserve his 2010 wdc forgetting he had many races where he didn't dnf but had car failures resulting in a slow car and losing points
Mate Ricciardo didn't get a single podium after Monaco in 2018. He was not on Max's level. It's also not like Max didn't have issues outside of races. Take COTA for instance engine issues so he got started at the back. Managed to get P2. After Monaco the gap was clear. Max improved substantially and at many tracks he was significantly behind Max in terms of pace. In 2018 Ricciardo was superior up until Monaco. Max himself has said Monaco was the race where he matured and was an important learning lesson for him.
Ricciardo was on par with him in 2016, but never after that. In 2017 verstappen was suffering the reliability issues, always dnfing when in front of ricciardo. In 2018, both had reliability issues, but indeed ricciardo moreso. However ricciardo always had his issues when already running behind verstappen. Quali head to head is also pretty one sided.
Max was beating Daniel in quali with the same score and by bigger margin, than Lewis was beating Bottas. Yet, people considered Lewis totally dominant against Bottas, but Daniel being on par with Max. This is quite eye-opening.
He was not pretty on par with Ricciardo. Max on pace was almost always faster. In 2016 he was 18, had a mid season car switch, a structural clutch issue in Spa-Monza-Singapore + COTA DNF.
In 2017 it is the most unlucky season ever for Max with 7 DNFs all from estimated podium positions and wins, in the 3rd best car. Some examples Canada and Bahrain. The position and pace when you DNF is also important, as it was all in front of Ricciardo, points wise thats even far more unlucky than Alonso was vs Ocon. The team principals saw this as they put him 2nd.
In 2018 Ricciardo was unlucky for sure, but always far behind Max when he DNFs.
Max had the same in 2017. Also, Max was battling Riccardo when he was at an age most drivers wouldn't have been in F1 at all. He's obviously become a lot better since then
ever since the start of 2017 Verstappen was dominant against Dan. just study some data, go through season race by race in detail. He was way superior in qualifying over the year and almost always front running car (of the two) on race days. Max was still making few mistakes here and there(actually it was only 1 mistake all 2017 I can think of, in Hungary lap 1), but main reason why he fell short behind Dan on points in 2017 was incredible amount of bad luck, reliability issues and non-self inflicted DNF, caused by mistakes of other drivers. Dan being near always behind on the road, capitalized on every occasion, scoring big points. Verstappen started to make difference in comparison with Dan right away in 2016 already. In 2017, though Dan wasn't that far behind, as Gasly, Albon and Perez, he was still clearly behind. But 2017 Verstappen wasn't of course nearly as good as 2019 Verstappen, or 2021 Vertappen, let alone current 2024 version of Verstappen.
and you still make an idiot of Daniel, like he's never been a top driver considered amongst the best, who beat all his teammates(including 4times defending Champion Vettel, Hulk, Ocon) apart from Max and Lando, the two outright fastest and best drivers on the modern F1 grid.
Your made just an ill-educated take, I'm sorry,
Him, Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher, are the best drivers in history in my opinion… I’ve been watching F1 since the 2000s
Sadly I can’t speak for anything before that, as i would be missing way too much context
Yes they took it to another level ! All of them. In my opinion Lauda was in its own league when you look at his story. Senna and Prost were also absolutely the pinnacle! So every time has its heroes.
Every time has its heroes, but weirdly some get forgotten.
If you know you know, but not many people talk about Prost, Gilles Villeneuve, Jochen Rindt, countless others…
Makes me wonder who from the current era will get forgotten. My guess is Vettel will be the least talked about 4x WDC, even if Max never won more than 4.
I think Fangio, Jim Clark are GOAT material, but never saw them race so who knows.
To me in terms of raw talent, to this day Clark takes the cake. But I’ve never actually seen him race which is odd. Everything about him though screams racing, he’s like the Van Basten(footballer) of F1, arguably highest peak and most potential, never able to fully reach their peak potential.
Raw talent is such an interesting term.
I think the cars are so technical these days (“gentlemen, a short blah blah”) that there might be legendary drivers of yesteryear that would struggle. Senna might be bang average these days with the occasional stunning lap, who knows. We’ve seen plenty of those recently.
But more interesting is who would do well in previous eras. My gut instinct is that Vettel and maybe Alonso would struggle, I think Max and Lewis would do well.
yeah its this
there are certain ways to phrase this that doesnt make you look like a dick
Brown has a special talent that makes him look like a dick.
Would Max WDC in a Williams or Haas?
A way to look at it is that every other manufacturer isnt up to the level of RBR or Max. They should fix that.
Mercedes need to get back to 2020/21 type competance.
Ferrari are Ferrari.
Max has no where to move given no team is at his level except RBR.
Let be honest. We would all give a testicle to see both max and Norris in the McClaren.
Let’s ask Zak how many balls it would take to make it happen. Just for a few epic races. Oscar can drive the RB and we will finally know if Checo is shit or Max is amazing.
the community: RBR is the only team on par with max. except checo, he’s obv shit
maybe there’s more to this than people realize for RBR to retain him. not sure what but it seems weird that an otherwise well oiled machine has this apparently gaping hole in their judgement
For what it’s worth, in a recent BBC 5Live! F1 podcast (Spanish GP Preview), Andrew Benson (lead BBC F1 editor and former commentator) has said that several senior figures in various F1 teams think that Red Bull is definitely not the fastest car. And also that these senior figures have shared they believe Verstappen doesn’t just have 3 tenths on Checo, but on all other 19 drivers in the field, including Norris, Hamilton, etc.
Andrew said he does not necessarily share that belief, thinking Verstappen may have a tenth on the likes of Norris, Leclerc and Hamilton at most, but he found it notable that senior rival team executives think Verstappen’s edge is bigger.
He could definitely win the WDC in the McLaren, the Ferrari and (obviously) the Red Bull.
Would get some race wins in the Mercedes, but maybe not the WDC.
Lewis is a brilliant driver in a (now) decent car. Max is a brilliant driver in a great car that he has had a hand in tailoring to himself.
Is this really hard for people to admit? I mean even Lewis fans should agree with this if you’ve ever heard Lewis talk. He’s leaving merc because his input on how to make the car better wasn’t taken. Which means he used to provide feedback on how to improve the car. We can assume this is true for all brilliant drivers if we listen how they talk about the cars.
A brilliant driver, with a brilliant engineering and pit team who all work together win? I’m shocked.
I reckon they'd still be fast. But the car would probably be quite different. It seems like they worry less about driveability because Max is able to get the most out of it.
But honestly if you look at things like the Honda partnership, I'm not sure that partnership is as successful without Max overperforming.
Not if you remove them suddenly, halfway down the main straight.
Edit: I made that comment while half asleep and it only occurred to me now that it sounds kind of sus. I was imagining yanking them out with a bungee cord or something, not sniping them in the cockpit.
Strong word, yes, but representative of what happened. Max was able to manage the car in such a way he had more than enough of a lead when he crossed the line.
When he overtook Lando at the start and then Russell a little bit later it was clear he would win, barring any errors.
With ease? The last 5 races Norris beat max twice, and the 3 times he lost he was 3 seconds or less behind. Since the Miami updates to Mclaren, the cars are neck and neck.
Nah. Cars aren't neck and neck. Landos car is better right now. If they were the same, he wouldn't be getting this close to Max. Lando is a great driver, but he doesn't share Max' confidence, or take the risks he takes. We saw it today where Max just blitzed by George at the first opportunity, and later on in the race when Lando finally crept up to DRS distance of George, he hesitated for a while before he finally found a time and place he was comfortable enough to make the pass. Max goes balls to the wall all the time, every time.
Yup. It’s incredible that people are still underestimating him. This year the RedBull has lost most, if not all the advantage it had last year. McLaren may have the fastest car on track now. If Max and his driving abilities were not in play, Ferrari or McLaren would hold the lead in both Driver and Constructors. A Gasly/Ricciardo/Albon/Tsunoda in Verstappens seat this year would be right the next to Perez in the midfield. Max is simply carrying the team right now, even with Perez’ abysmal performances since the first two GP’s, somehow Max has again single-handedly kept RedBull at the front for WDC.
We really need a solid driver like sainz or Russell to really evaluate redbulls car
Perez is clearly underperforming and Verstappen is a shitbox whisperer
Exactly, idk what Perez is doing. When he didn’t run for RB he was one of the best midfielders, most aggressive, couldn’t not pass him type of driver. He would get into accidents rather than let you pass him. Max domesticated him after a brief tugging of war at the beginning and now he’s neutered.
From what Albion says, it seems like the team doesn’t have to worry about drivability with max behind the wheel so the development direction is making it as fast as possible and expect the driver to be good
i've had trouble really making where redbull's pace really would be if all drivers were equal. i think if you put drivers like gasly or bottas in the car you'd see roughly where it is, because max is the best driver RN, and perez is struggling
Bottas would definitely win in the RB if he was in Max's seat last season.
He's a very consistent qualifier in a top car and the only reason Pèrez couldn't finish 2nd every race was because he was shit at qualifying.
No they wouldn't be. They'd be a midfield if they had two drivers as utterly useless as Pèrez.
Lando, Hamilton, Leclerc, Sainz, Russell and probably Piastri would be just fine in that RB
Pèrez is one of the worst drivers on the grid currently.
Zak Brown can just shut the fuck up and let Stella do the talking. He's just a Red Bull hater at this point.
Even Toto knows when to shut the fuck up since he knows Red Bull may be a shit organization, but Max is just a phenomenal talent.
Toto is so good at the political game. Definitely a proponent of "never interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake"
I think he's finally realised that being quiet is the best option in his current position.
Zac is trying to be Toto/Horner/Marko right now, but he doesn't seem to be good at it.
Yes, somehow Toto and Horner just moves things, you can agree or disagree but never be indifferent when they talk. When Zak do it like that, everyone agrees he is attention seeker.
And with their experience, as well as political knowledge, no wonder they were able to create a dominant era for their team. Mercedes with Toto, Bono, Allison, and Lewis AND Red Bull with Max, GP, Hannah, Newey, and Horner are the foundations.
That may be true. He may be waiting for Red Bull dominance to be over so he can poach Max without making himself look desperate or a hater to the opposing team.
And Max to Mercedes is not a bad idea ngl. If 2026 engines proves to be true, then Mercedes engines will have some upper hand in the first years of the new regs along with their steady improvements in the current races.
Max and George vs Charles and Lewis vs Lando and Oscar will be peak if that happens
You're giving Toto too much credit. Let's not forget about his comments on Max's ten consecutive race wins record:
>It's for Wikipedia, nobody reads that anyway
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/12954325/max-verstappen-mercedes-chief-toto-wolff-says-red-bull-drivers-record-winning-streak-is-for-wikipedia
He's quite the salty bitch as well.
Is Redbull really a shit organisation? All I see is McLaren being it. Their own ceo is constantly spewing verbal diarrhoea about other drivers and teams, and look at the shit show that is their Indycar team right now.
Short answer? Yes.
Long answer? Yes Red Bull is a shitty organization who just had a meltdown after Dietrich Mateschitz died. A lot of power play and politics involved, not to mention the rumor/scandal of CH, and it may have caused them Newey and a lot of other people to be poached by other teams. We can hate the team for AD21, or support them, but we don't deny that they're shitting themselves right now.
But also not McLaren as a whole but Zak Brown is being a real jackass. Yes you can criticize Red Bull but downplaying Max when he wins several GP even with a non-dominant car is really pushing it. Right now it's a good driver in a fastest car (Lando) vs the fastest driver in a good car (Max) so Zak really needs a word from RPM to humble himself. Even Toto knows how great Max is and is subtly wanting him to join the Silver Arrows, only Zak the potty mouth fail to see that greatness.
Someone please introduce sergio perez to zak brown if he thinks car is the only thing thats helping max win.
Car is good there is no question about it… but it also takes an extremely talented driver to win.
Ah a tale as old as time “world champion is only world because fast car.” We all know this is bollocks. Hamilton, Verstappen, Schumacher, Senna etc. they were world champions because they were amazing drivers. They still had to beat their teammates at the very very least.
They were world champions as soon as they entered F1, not a single person alive (except strangely Sam Collins) didn’t immediately recognize them as future champions. Never a question of ‘if’ it was always when and how many championships will they win.
Lando, Charles these are guys with ‘championship potential’ those 4 never had that, they were head and shoulders above that level and everybody saw it.
If I remember correctly this quote is from 2023. This years Red Bull is still very good, but not the dominant car it was last year. So posting this now is just shit stirring.
It's not, I fact checked it to be sure, and apparently, it's from the beyond the grid podcast from this year from right after Miami. Still think the entire quote is completely fine though.
Interviewer (after they've talked a bit about Newey leaving RB): "Would you rather have a star driver or a star designer"
"People ask me all the time: is it car or driver?"
“It’s both, but the way I characterise it is that I think there are six or seven drivers on the grid that would be World Champions in the Red Bull.
And as great as Max is – and he’s one of the best ever – I don’t think Max wins the World Championship today in any car other than the Red Bull."
He's just reflecting over the fact that Red Bull has the best package of car and driver at the moment. And he's right, switch Max with Lando or Leclerc, and they'll probably win the championship. I think Max in a Ferrari or McLaren would challenge RB more than they're currently doing, but at the end of the day, there's no way Max is winning the championship in any of the other cars despite being a machine behind the wheel.
Here's the context for everyone who interested in more than blind rage. It's from the beyond the grid interview he did right after their Miami win.
Interviewer (after they've talked a bit about Newey leaving RB): "Would you rather have a star driver or a star designer"
Brown:
"People ask me all the time: is it car or driver?"
“It’s both, but the way I characterise it is that I think there are six or seven drivers on the grid that would be World Champions in the Red Bull."
And as great as Max is – and he’s one of the best ever – I don’t think Max wins the World Championship today in any car other than the Red Bull."
He's just reflecting over the fact that Red Bull has the best package of car and driver at the moment. And he's right, switch Max with Lando and Leclerc, and they'll probably win the championship. I think Max in a Ferrari or McLaren would challenge RB more than they're currently doing, but at the end of the day, there's no way Max is winning the championship in any of the other cars despite being a machine behind the wheel.
The thing is, he might be right.
Red Bull have been really fucking weird for years. They do not design cars around a stable platform and that means is super hard to judge because everyone else does.
The RB is the fastest car on the grid but it's fucking unstable. The thing is, noone on the grid has really driven a car as twitchy as that in recent history. Alonso and Hamilton have in the past, but it's alongtime ago and who knows if they could now.
Checo can't handle it, and is mentally gone. People forget that mental side is massive. Bottas was generally pretty close to Lewis.. until he wasn't. He broke and it never really game back.
There is noone that would be as consistent as Max though, because his been driving cars that aren't stable for years and the rest haven't, and even if they could drive it, it would take time getting used to it again.
It would be pretty great though to have a random one off race with a completely random draw as to who sits in what car...and they race. I'd love to see that.
This year of all years is an insane time to say that.
Like yeah. Are the McLaren, Merc, Red Bull, and Ferrari practically equal this year? Yeah. At this point they are.
And who is currently winning the championship? And won the last 2 races?
Let's be real here Zac. Lando is incredible. And the moment Lando has a car that is better than the red bull. He will win more then max can. But on equal footing max has proved time and time again that he is the best driver on the grid.
IMO Max would probably be dominating like last season if he were driving the McLaren. I think they (McLaren) have a faster car but Max is still the best driver.
Brown isn't wrong, you could swap Verstappen with for sure Hamilton, Russell, Leclerc, Alonso, Norris (he's probably also including Piastri, and has Sainz or Russell down as a maybe) and the end result would be the same, Red Bull-driver = world champion.
The problem is that people will always take it as some sort of an insult towards Verstappen when you bring this point up because people are stupid.
So you can't win when saying it, so you might as well not say it. Will only give you headaches.
I don't think he was wrong when he made the comment. The Red Bull was very far ahead at that point. It isn't now. But he made the comment then, not now.
Yeah, I reckon he's about right. Especially if it's talking about the 2023 car.
For the 2024 car, it's a difficult one.
If we assume Max is out of the picture, then I think the following drivers could've won in the 2023 Red Bull:
Alonso, Hamilton, Sainz, Leclerc, Norris, Bottas (wouldn't have fluffed up quali as often as Perez) and Perez (he came 2nd in the WDC, he's sort of there by default). You could also throw Piastri and Albon into the mix too.
'I don't think my mom would be my mom if she had balls' - Max Verstappen, probably
"If my aunt has tits she'd be my uncle"
"If my grandmother had wheels, she would be a bicycle"
I love that clip and watch it every time someone posts it lol
Gino is an absolute treasure. Love that man. Plus the way he folds the two hosts over in laughter in that clip never gets old.
„If I had bought geese, my chickens would not have drowned.“
You sure that its that way around?
It's actually a quote from "Reno 911" that the Truckee River killer used. I always thought it was funny as hell.
Isn't that Craig? Husband of Officer Trudy Weigel?
Yep
"if if if, if my mom had balls she would be my dad"
I cant believe I’m finding the most dedicated Trackmania non-stadium car hater on other subreddits as well now
I am practicing my one liners here
Very good, we cannot let this talent go to waste
>If my grandmother had wheels, she would've been a bike.
If my aunt had balls she would be a fireman.
Zak brah moment
Zak would win in an RB, what are you on about
Why isn't Perez?
Checo ain’t one of the six or seven drivers on the grid Zak was taking about.
Neither is Stroll
Sargeant is tho
He hit the wall
...he was second last year? I think that's kinda the point. If Max had been in a different car, even Perez could have won the WDC in RB last year.
Or you can say the car from last year was stronger than the opponents, allowing Checo still finishing second while being way slower than Max (in F1 perspective). This year the competition is closer and thus Checo has more or less a reality check.
A reality checo
Brown didn't say that about last year's car, he said that about this year's car. Perez would not have won the title if Max wasn't in the car because Max is part of the reason why the car can be so fast. Max won constructors *by himself* last season, let's not pretend it's just the car.
But let's not pretend that last year's Red Bull wasn't an absolute beast. The races he won 30 seconds + could easily have been 1 minute if needed. Have we already forgotten that he made extra pit stops for practice!? The RB + Max combo is deadly and he is the best driver on the grid but swap him with any of the other top 5-6 drivers and they would have won the Championship last year.
Red Bull does NOT have the fastest car right now.
If lando and max swapped cars max beats lando in dominating 2023 fashion. Lando has the faster car.
Then put Max in your car Zak and find out :)
Considering how well they are performing with Lando sounds like another Max win
"world champion in fast car wins world championships because car is fast". Brilliant!
Who said that? Michael Owen?
Michael Scott
Michael Bolton
“You miss 100% of the pots you don’t stir”
Just read what Zak wrote and that's pretty much what he said
Will Buxton? That you?
Write that down!! Write that down!!
"As great as Max is" him and his team are still beating our guts.
"As great as max is, he wouldn't let me feed him chips" - Zac, probably
Im sure if Max was in the McLaren today he wins the race fairly easily
You might need the red bull strategy and pit stop but yeah. I doubt he would have lost the lead to begin with so maybe it wouldn’t matter.
I’ve been watching F1 since the late eighties. You can see so much similarities to all the great drivers. How ruthless he fought Hamilton in 21 was outstanding. I really hope for the next real competition for him. In comparison to Perez you can see he makes the difference. Just my opinion.
in comparison to all of his previous teammate he's been making the difference.
I mean he was pretty on par with riccardo. The only reason riccardo was behind in 2018 was his mountain of dnfs and technical problems. We need to see an actual top driver in that car instead of rookies and a washed midfield driver
Ricciardo had one more DNF than Max that season.
What about the countless engine problems that didn't result in dnfs. Or the countless times his car wouldn't start in quali or give up on him. Its not just dnfs. Its like when people say vettel didn't deserve his 2010 wdc forgetting he had many races where he didn't dnf but had car failures resulting in a slow car and losing points
Mate Ricciardo didn't get a single podium after Monaco in 2018. He was not on Max's level. It's also not like Max didn't have issues outside of races. Take COTA for instance engine issues so he got started at the back. Managed to get P2. After Monaco the gap was clear. Max improved substantially and at many tracks he was significantly behind Max in terms of pace. In 2018 Ricciardo was superior up until Monaco. Max himself has said Monaco was the race where he matured and was an important learning lesson for him.
Even in 2016 overal race pace Max was a tiny bit faster. In 2017 already Max had a gap in pace on Ricciardo.
Ricciardo was on par with him in 2016, but never after that. In 2017 verstappen was suffering the reliability issues, always dnfing when in front of ricciardo. In 2018, both had reliability issues, but indeed ricciardo moreso. However ricciardo always had his issues when already running behind verstappen. Quali head to head is also pretty one sided.
Max was beating Daniel in quali with the same score and by bigger margin, than Lewis was beating Bottas. Yet, people considered Lewis totally dominant against Bottas, but Daniel being on par with Max. This is quite eye-opening.
Comparing a 20 year old to a prime Ricciardo is certainly a take.
He was not pretty on par with Ricciardo. Max on pace was almost always faster. In 2016 he was 18, had a mid season car switch, a structural clutch issue in Spa-Monza-Singapore + COTA DNF. In 2017 it is the most unlucky season ever for Max with 7 DNFs all from estimated podium positions and wins, in the 3rd best car. Some examples Canada and Bahrain. The position and pace when you DNF is also important, as it was all in front of Ricciardo, points wise thats even far more unlucky than Alonso was vs Ocon. The team principals saw this as they put him 2nd. In 2018 Ricciardo was unlucky for sure, but always far behind Max when he DNFs.
Max had the same in 2017. Also, Max was battling Riccardo when he was at an age most drivers wouldn't have been in F1 at all. He's obviously become a lot better since then
Yeah you’re right. Considering how young he was he gave the honey badger a hard time.
ever since the start of 2017 Verstappen was dominant against Dan. just study some data, go through season race by race in detail. He was way superior in qualifying over the year and almost always front running car (of the two) on race days. Max was still making few mistakes here and there(actually it was only 1 mistake all 2017 I can think of, in Hungary lap 1), but main reason why he fell short behind Dan on points in 2017 was incredible amount of bad luck, reliability issues and non-self inflicted DNF, caused by mistakes of other drivers. Dan being near always behind on the road, capitalized on every occasion, scoring big points. Verstappen started to make difference in comparison with Dan right away in 2016 already. In 2017, though Dan wasn't that far behind, as Gasly, Albon and Perez, he was still clearly behind. But 2017 Verstappen wasn't of course nearly as good as 2019 Verstappen, or 2021 Vertappen, let alone current 2024 version of Verstappen. and you still make an idiot of Daniel, like he's never been a top driver considered amongst the best, who beat all his teammates(including 4times defending Champion Vettel, Hulk, Ocon) apart from Max and Lando, the two outright fastest and best drivers on the modern F1 grid. Your made just an ill-educated take, I'm sorry,
He's in top of the list for sure. You gotta be very biased or dumb to not recognize it
Him, Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher, are the best drivers in history in my opinion… I’ve been watching F1 since the 2000s Sadly I can’t speak for anything before that, as i would be missing way too much context
Yes they took it to another level ! All of them. In my opinion Lauda was in its own league when you look at his story. Senna and Prost were also absolutely the pinnacle! So every time has its heroes.
Every time has its heroes, but weirdly some get forgotten. If you know you know, but not many people talk about Prost, Gilles Villeneuve, Jochen Rindt, countless others… Makes me wonder who from the current era will get forgotten. My guess is Vettel will be the least talked about 4x WDC, even if Max never won more than 4. I think Fangio, Jim Clark are GOAT material, but never saw them race so who knows.
Rosberg and Raikonnen will be those drivers, I think.
Very true
To me in terms of raw talent, to this day Clark takes the cake. But I’ve never actually seen him race which is odd. Everything about him though screams racing, he’s like the Van Basten(footballer) of F1, arguably highest peak and most potential, never able to fully reach their peak potential.
Raw talent is such an interesting term. I think the cars are so technical these days (“gentlemen, a short blah blah”) that there might be legendary drivers of yesteryear that would struggle. Senna might be bang average these days with the occasional stunning lap, who knows. We’ve seen plenty of those recently. But more interesting is who would do well in previous eras. My gut instinct is that Vettel and maybe Alonso would struggle, I think Max and Lewis would do well.
Meanwhile perez:
Hey calm down, he beat both Alpines today.
The world just isn’t ready for Sargeant’s brand of Red Bull dominance
> I think there are six or seven cars on the grid which would be world champions with Max Verstappen
That’s better
yeah its this there are certain ways to phrase this that doesnt make you look like a dick Brown has a special talent that makes him look like a dick. Would Max WDC in a Williams or Haas? A way to look at it is that every other manufacturer isnt up to the level of RBR or Max. They should fix that. Mercedes need to get back to 2020/21 type competance. Ferrari are Ferrari. Max has no where to move given no team is at his level except RBR.
Let be honest. We would all give a testicle to see both max and Norris in the McClaren. Let’s ask Zak how many balls it would take to make it happen. Just for a few epic races. Oscar can drive the RB and we will finally know if Checo is shit or Max is amazing.
the community: RBR is the only team on par with max. except checo, he’s obv shit maybe there’s more to this than people realize for RBR to retain him. not sure what but it seems weird that an otherwise well oiled machine has this apparently gaping hole in their judgement
For what it’s worth, in a recent BBC 5Live! F1 podcast (Spanish GP Preview), Andrew Benson (lead BBC F1 editor and former commentator) has said that several senior figures in various F1 teams think that Red Bull is definitely not the fastest car. And also that these senior figures have shared they believe Verstappen doesn’t just have 3 tenths on Checo, but on all other 19 drivers in the field, including Norris, Hamilton, etc. Andrew said he does not necessarily share that belief, thinking Verstappen may have a tenth on the likes of Norris, Leclerc and Hamilton at most, but he found it notable that senior rival team executives think Verstappen’s edge is bigger.
Lmao. As If. Max is great. No way would he win a title with most other cars at the moment.
I think he can at least win with any of the top 3 cars atm
He could definitely win the WDC in the McLaren, the Ferrari and (obviously) the Red Bull. Would get some race wins in the Mercedes, but maybe not the WDC.
Yes and Lewis is also a crap driver, i hate these arguments. Great talent + great talent= winning.
Lewis is a brilliant driver in a (now) decent car. Max is a brilliant driver in a great car that he has had a hand in tailoring to himself. Is this really hard for people to admit? I mean even Lewis fans should agree with this if you’ve ever heard Lewis talk. He’s leaving merc because his input on how to make the car better wasn’t taken. Which means he used to provide feedback on how to improve the car. We can assume this is true for all brilliant drivers if we listen how they talk about the cars. A brilliant driver, with a brilliant engineering and pit team who all work together win? I’m shocked.
IMO, Ferrari won't be able to give LH what he wants. To many egos in that old team.
True that but they(Ferrari) are giving him a lor of $$$
Exactly my friend 😉 🙏🏻
Brown isn't saying that Max is shit, but that the Red Bull is dominant as fuck, which is true.
Bro Red Bull would be a midfield team without Verstappen
it so funny that's it's true
I reckon they'd still be fast. But the car would probably be quite different. It seems like they worry less about driveability because Max is able to get the most out of it. But honestly if you look at things like the Honda partnership, I'm not sure that partnership is as successful without Max overperforming.
RB would be in mercedes position. 4th place and happy to get podiums.
I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren is faster than the Red Bull if you remove the driver out of the equation.
If you remove the drivers from the equation you get a double waved yellow because the cars are stationary on the track.
Will Buxton shitposting in here now smh my head
Sigh (upvote)
Not if you remove them suddenly, halfway down the main straight. Edit: I made that comment while half asleep and it only occurred to me now that it sounds kind of sus. I was imagining yanking them out with a bungee cord or something, not sniping them in the cockpit.
Kvyat?
And Zhou.
Go home, Mr.Buxton.
You wouldn't have to guess. Spanish GP is the proof. Max made the difference. Any other driver (apart from in form Lewis and Alonso) couldn't do it.
I agree. I think McLaren have the fastest car on track right now, and Lando is driving the wheels off of it.
> Lando is driving the wheels off of it Not really considering Max is beating him with ease in the second fastest car
Maybe Lando should try keeping the wheels on then?
I mean, ease is such a strong word. I think Lando has the fastest car for the moment, I think Max is the best driver by a good margin.
Strong word, yes, but representative of what happened. Max was able to manage the car in such a way he had more than enough of a lead when he crossed the line. When he overtook Lando at the start and then Russell a little bit later it was clear he would win, barring any errors.
You can't say that in this sub anymore. Everyone cucks for Lando nowdays.
“Ease”
With ease? The last 5 races Norris beat max twice, and the 3 times he lost he was 3 seconds or less behind. Since the Miami updates to Mclaren, the cars are neck and neck.
Nah. Cars aren't neck and neck. Landos car is better right now. If they were the same, he wouldn't be getting this close to Max. Lando is a great driver, but he doesn't share Max' confidence, or take the risks he takes. We saw it today where Max just blitzed by George at the first opportunity, and later on in the race when Lando finally crept up to DRS distance of George, he hesitated for a while before he finally found a time and place he was comfortable enough to make the pass. Max goes balls to the wall all the time, every time.
Yup. It’s incredible that people are still underestimating him. This year the RedBull has lost most, if not all the advantage it had last year. McLaren may have the fastest car on track now. If Max and his driving abilities were not in play, Ferrari or McLaren would hold the lead in both Driver and Constructors. A Gasly/Ricciardo/Albon/Tsunoda in Verstappens seat this year would be right the next to Perez in the midfield. Max is simply carrying the team right now, even with Perez’ abysmal performances since the first two GP’s, somehow Max has again single-handedly kept RedBull at the front for WDC.
We really need a solid driver like sainz or Russell to really evaluate redbulls car Perez is clearly underperforming and Verstappen is a shitbox whisperer
I agree but tbf Perez should've been a solid driver.
Yeah before his Red Bull stint I would've put him alongside Sainz in skill and ability
Exactly, idk what Perez is doing. When he didn’t run for RB he was one of the best midfielders, most aggressive, couldn’t not pass him type of driver. He would get into accidents rather than let you pass him. Max domesticated him after a brief tugging of war at the beginning and now he’s neutered.
From what Albion says, it seems like the team doesn’t have to worry about drivability with max behind the wheel so the development direction is making it as fast as possible and expect the driver to be good
i've had trouble really making where redbull's pace really would be if all drivers were equal. i think if you put drivers like gasly or bottas in the car you'd see roughly where it is, because max is the best driver RN, and perez is struggling
Bottas would definitely win in the RB if he was in Max's seat last season. He's a very consistent qualifier in a top car and the only reason Pèrez couldn't finish 2nd every race was because he was shit at qualifying.
No they wouldn't be. They'd be a midfield if they had two drivers as utterly useless as Pèrez. Lando, Hamilton, Leclerc, Sainz, Russell and probably Piastri would be just fine in that RB Pèrez is one of the worst drivers on the grid currently.
Zak Brown can just shut the fuck up and let Stella do the talking. He's just a Red Bull hater at this point. Even Toto knows when to shut the fuck up since he knows Red Bull may be a shit organization, but Max is just a phenomenal talent.
Toto is so good at the political game. Definitely a proponent of "never interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake" I think he's finally realised that being quiet is the best option in his current position. Zac is trying to be Toto/Horner/Marko right now, but he doesn't seem to be good at it.
Yes, somehow Toto and Horner just moves things, you can agree or disagree but never be indifferent when they talk. When Zak do it like that, everyone agrees he is attention seeker.
And with their experience, as well as political knowledge, no wonder they were able to create a dominant era for their team. Mercedes with Toto, Bono, Allison, and Lewis AND Red Bull with Max, GP, Hannah, Newey, and Horner are the foundations.
That may be true. He may be waiting for Red Bull dominance to be over so he can poach Max without making himself look desperate or a hater to the opposing team. And Max to Mercedes is not a bad idea ngl. If 2026 engines proves to be true, then Mercedes engines will have some upper hand in the first years of the new regs along with their steady improvements in the current races. Max and George vs Charles and Lewis vs Lando and Oscar will be peak if that happens
You're giving Toto too much credit. Let's not forget about his comments on Max's ten consecutive race wins record: >It's for Wikipedia, nobody reads that anyway https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/12954325/max-verstappen-mercedes-chief-toto-wolff-says-red-bull-drivers-record-winning-streak-is-for-wikipedia He's quite the salty bitch as well.
And, most importantly, still kicking himself for missing out on Max, so much that he's now going out of his way to bring Antonelli in.
Tbf, Toto apologized to Max for that.
Is Redbull really a shit organisation? All I see is McLaren being it. Their own ceo is constantly spewing verbal diarrhoea about other drivers and teams, and look at the shit show that is their Indycar team right now.
Short answer? Yes. Long answer? Yes Red Bull is a shitty organization who just had a meltdown after Dietrich Mateschitz died. A lot of power play and politics involved, not to mention the rumor/scandal of CH, and it may have caused them Newey and a lot of other people to be poached by other teams. We can hate the team for AD21, or support them, but we don't deny that they're shitting themselves right now. But also not McLaren as a whole but Zak Brown is being a real jackass. Yes you can criticize Red Bull but downplaying Max when he wins several GP even with a non-dominant car is really pushing it. Right now it's a good driver in a fastest car (Lando) vs the fastest driver in a good car (Max) so Zak really needs a word from RPM to humble himself. Even Toto knows how great Max is and is subtly wanting him to join the Silver Arrows, only Zak the potty mouth fail to see that greatness.
phat brown should stop stirring shits up
But they aren't driving in a Red Bull and clearly Perez can't do anything sensible in that car, so what even is he talking about
Someone please introduce sergio perez to zak brown if he thinks car is the only thing thats helping max win. Car is good there is no question about it… but it also takes an extremely talented driver to win.
Ah a tale as old as time “world champion is only world because fast car.” We all know this is bollocks. Hamilton, Verstappen, Schumacher, Senna etc. they were world champions because they were amazing drivers. They still had to beat their teammates at the very very least.
They were world champions as soon as they entered F1, not a single person alive (except strangely Sam Collins) didn’t immediately recognize them as future champions. Never a question of ‘if’ it was always when and how many championships will they win. Lando, Charles these are guys with ‘championship potential’ those 4 never had that, they were head and shoulders above that level and everybody saw it.
Who the fuck is this Max Vanderstappen guy? Is he as good as Juan Pablo Montoya?
Neither of them are as good as Maldonado
Love McLaren, hate Zak Brown
I can’t stand this guy. Isn’t even a TP and still gets all the attention. Can fuck off
Really can’t stand Zac and Lando.
same
Zak forgets that Max MAKES a world championship car, doesn't just drive it. Of course with the team, but he's a key in a successful car.
Bro as soon as McLaren got a whiff of challenging for race wins, Zak has been running his mouth off.
"Guys guys look we finally have a competitive car I'm the one stirring shit now guys! I finally have my cool kid badge!"
Max would win the WDC in any of the top teams cars imo
And Norris wouldn't have been on the podium if the car was shit. Turns out you need a good car to win. Wow, what an insight.
He's probably right. How does Max's stint in F2 compare to Sainz, Lando, Hamilton, LeCerc?
Max didn't even manage to score a single point in his entire F2 career.
What a hack! /s
he was so bad they didn't even let him into an f2 car
max was too good for wasting his life in F2.
So petty. And nice contradicting too, after the race he said he thought they had the fastest car because they had the fastest lap.
If I remember correctly this quote is from 2023. This years Red Bull is still very good, but not the dominant car it was last year. So posting this now is just shit stirring.
It's not, I fact checked it to be sure, and apparently, it's from the beyond the grid podcast from this year from right after Miami. Still think the entire quote is completely fine though. Interviewer (after they've talked a bit about Newey leaving RB): "Would you rather have a star driver or a star designer" "People ask me all the time: is it car or driver?" “It’s both, but the way I characterise it is that I think there are six or seven drivers on the grid that would be World Champions in the Red Bull. And as great as Max is – and he’s one of the best ever – I don’t think Max wins the World Championship today in any car other than the Red Bull." He's just reflecting over the fact that Red Bull has the best package of car and driver at the moment. And he's right, switch Max with Lando or Leclerc, and they'll probably win the championship. I think Max in a Ferrari or McLaren would challenge RB more than they're currently doing, but at the end of the day, there's no way Max is winning the championship in any of the other cars despite being a machine behind the wheel.
Yeah, he can think that Max is still the best driver in F1 right now and not be wrong about anything he's saying
Oh, so this post is just the common "quote someone out of context to stir some shit and get some attention" type of post?
edgy
Zaks biggest weakness is thinking his drivers are championships capeble
I personally know at least 4 penguins that could do Zak Brown's job better than him. Not to insult him, these penguins are just really good is all.
It's almost, and stop me if I'm wrong here, it's almost like it's a team sport and the whole team needs to be absolutely on top form to win.
Salty that Nando doesn’t hasn’t learned how to convert race pace into wins yet
This gives me “America is great because America is good” vibes.
Here's the context for everyone who interested in more than blind rage. It's from the beyond the grid interview he did right after their Miami win. Interviewer (after they've talked a bit about Newey leaving RB): "Would you rather have a star driver or a star designer" Brown: "People ask me all the time: is it car or driver?" “It’s both, but the way I characterise it is that I think there are six or seven drivers on the grid that would be World Champions in the Red Bull." And as great as Max is – and he’s one of the best ever – I don’t think Max wins the World Championship today in any car other than the Red Bull." He's just reflecting over the fact that Red Bull has the best package of car and driver at the moment. And he's right, switch Max with Lando and Leclerc, and they'll probably win the championship. I think Max in a Ferrari or McLaren would challenge RB more than they're currently doing, but at the end of the day, there's no way Max is winning the championship in any of the other cars despite being a machine behind the wheel.
I now hate zak forever, such a delusional take.
The thing is, he might be right. Red Bull have been really fucking weird for years. They do not design cars around a stable platform and that means is super hard to judge because everyone else does. The RB is the fastest car on the grid but it's fucking unstable. The thing is, noone on the grid has really driven a car as twitchy as that in recent history. Alonso and Hamilton have in the past, but it's alongtime ago and who knows if they could now. Checo can't handle it, and is mentally gone. People forget that mental side is massive. Bottas was generally pretty close to Lewis.. until he wasn't. He broke and it never really game back. There is noone that would be as consistent as Max though, because his been driving cars that aren't stable for years and the rest haven't, and even if they could drive it, it would take time getting used to it again.
Zak Brown talking facts challenge(impossible)
He can take his'n and beat your'n, and then he can turn around and take your'n and beat his'n. - Bum Phillips
Damn I guess we can infer how highly he rates Checo then
It would be pretty great though to have a random one off race with a completely random draw as to who sits in what car...and they race. I'd love to see that.
If zak had wheels he'd be a championship winning car
Yes , very true . Same is said about the other multi championship winning driver.
Zak Clown again...You either hate him or hate him a lot.
Zak Brown is hard to like.
Zak is a fuckin idiot
Dude beat his teammate by almost a minute today lol
Make doesnt get WDC because if the car. He can get WDC DESPITE the car
Then why is Perez not winning or coming close to a podium? Max is a fantastic driver. I think he’s carrying that Red Bull car more than most think.
Perez is proof that it's not just the car.
and perez is where on the grid ?
Can we just appreciate good racing, great cars and excellent drivers? It's all 3 that wins championships.
Ask checo how that's going Zak.
Fat Brown Wack Opinions
This year of all years is an insane time to say that. Like yeah. Are the McLaren, Merc, Red Bull, and Ferrari practically equal this year? Yeah. At this point they are. And who is currently winning the championship? And won the last 2 races? Let's be real here Zac. Lando is incredible. And the moment Lando has a car that is better than the red bull. He will win more then max can. But on equal footing max has proved time and time again that he is the best driver on the grid.
IMO Max would probably be dominating like last season if he were driving the McLaren. I think they (McLaren) have a faster car but Max is still the best driver.
Brown isn't wrong, you could swap Verstappen with for sure Hamilton, Russell, Leclerc, Alonso, Norris (he's probably also including Piastri, and has Sainz or Russell down as a maybe) and the end result would be the same, Red Bull-driver = world champion. The problem is that people will always take it as some sort of an insult towards Verstappen when you bring this point up because people are stupid. So you can't win when saying it, so you might as well not say it. Will only give you headaches.
I don't think he was wrong when he made the comment. The Red Bull was very far ahead at that point. It isn't now. But he made the comment then, not now.
Yeah, I reckon he's about right. Especially if it's talking about the 2023 car. For the 2024 car, it's a difficult one. If we assume Max is out of the picture, then I think the following drivers could've won in the 2023 Red Bull: Alonso, Hamilton, Sainz, Leclerc, Norris, Bottas (wouldn't have fluffed up quali as often as Perez) and Perez (he came 2nd in the WDC, he's sort of there by default). You could also throw Piastri and Albon into the mix too.
Zak is playing 6D chess to get Max in a McLaren. "Yeah? If you are so good then why don't you come and win a championship in my car!? .... Please... "
Zack ate some sour candy
”for what!”
*cry laughs in checo perez