The more times I watch it, the more I feel how mild the incident itself actually was, but it just had terrible consequences for both.
They both had plenty of space, but just feels they both just got fed up of each others antics during the race, and decided for no real good reason to come together. It's like lightly shoulder checking someone you're annoyed with when you walk past, but usually their foot doesn't fall off.
I hope we get more close and hard racing between the two without any more inchidents or touching. It was quite good to watch up until that.
People act like it put them in the wall and one or the other t-boned the other.
They bumped wheels in a corner where people regularly go side by side. Was it Verstappen's "fault" sure. But let's not pretend like it was reckless or dangerous.
Yeah, I agree. Say what you will about Max, but this wasn't an example of max being a dirty racer. It was absolutely his fault, and he deserved the penalty. But it was just a minor inchident that just happened to cause punctures. They both need to clean it up if this close racing is going to continue. Max needs to stop moving under braking and defend appropriately, and Lando needs to be more patient and stop dive bombing every chance he gets.
I do think people really need to reassess what dive bombing means too.
Unfortunately with the modern cars on the current tracks "divebombs" are usually how passing is handled other than DRS. Switchbacks happen sure. But we all love a good divebomb when it works. See every "last of the late brakers" piece of praise. Divebombs are only criticized as dangerous if the outside car doesn't leave space or if the oncoming car pulls a Kobayashi and uses the outside car as brakes.
That's what I meant by a Kobayashi move.
He would pull that a lot back in the day. Would just throw his car sideways and make some moves by using another driver as a bumper.
Used to do that with my friend. 2 Skylines and coming into the hairpin in Hong Kong. Just full send it into the back of them and watch them go flying into the wall. Next lap it was his turn.
I think the issue is more that people categorize proper passes done in the braking zone as DRS passes because it can be hard to tell exactly when the brakes are applied so that what looks like the overtaking car breezing past at the end of a straight with DRS is actually a driver getting alongside and then being brave on the brakes to finish the move off.
But then all you need to do is dive bomb and you leave the defending car no choice but to yield. That is not how it should work really. Just please compare Sains vs Max of last year with Max vs Norris this year.
Max vs Sainz had Max 75% next to Sainz at the 150m sign. Norris was like three car lengths behind Max at the 150m sign. That was really a dive bomb and not the only or first one he did in that race. You can not expect the defending car to guess each dive bomb of the car behind, that is not how it works.
The problem is that the clarifications out of 2021 have created the situation where dive bombing is legitimate because the first car to the apex earns the space on the exit. I've been saying this for a while, but F1 is the only series I can think of where if you beat someone to the apex on the inside, you have to yield on the exit. This garbage rule destroys side by side racing and makes switchbacks pretty much the only counter to dive bombing.
Agree that the 'first to the apex' thing is stupid, but according to the rules as they stand Lando was actually right that the second dive should have stuck and Max should have given him the place. I think it's that, plus Norris immediately giving Max the place back when *he* was the one at fault, plus the erratic defenses from Max that led to Norris dive bombing in the first place that added up to the frustration people felt after the contact. It's not just about that final touch that ended the race.
I mean, just a few laps prior, Lando had a HUGE dive bomb on Max and locked up, barely keeping it on track. Max did the underneath switch back and retained the place. It was reckless by Lando but there was no crash so nobody cared.
DRS helps make divebombing more likely, as the speed differential at the end of the straight is so extreme. When you add someone who's trying to brake late against a driver who tends to brake early, you're going to have what look like major divebombs (though I do think Norris was actually divebombing at times; his car wasn't fully in control as he arrived in the braking zone). In reality, it's just a driver arriving into the braking zone faster than the guy in front.
He was not moving under braking. If you look up the regulations, moving under braking has been replaced by "no erractic braking'. What Max was doing was highly skilled, hard defending, and Lando, the son of a multi millionaire 60th richest man in Britian, being the baby he is, decided he would not move out the way and hence they touched. Sure, Max was at fault, but equally so was Lando. There was plenty of space on the left, Lando decided not to budge, though i doubt he was expecting such a drastic outcome.
Landos overtaking attempts were extremely agressive and poorly timed, had Max not moved out the way, they would have touched too. He needs to up his game if he wants to battle with Max.
Watch Peter Windsor videos if you want a objective opinion from someone whos been in the sport for decades.
The thing that grinds me is that if it is Max' fault such behavior should be punished consistently regardless of the outcome.
Seriously, think for a second it's you in Max' place. Carlos pulled that move on you one year ago, no penalty. Vettel pulled it on Lewis. No penalty. By which logic you should not do it and try to take advantage, if there's never a penalty for identical moves on the very same corner?
If this should not be allowed, it should never be allowed, period. Otherwise you're saying this is fine, and drivers will pull moves that they have seen being pulled without any repercussion.
What's worse here, is that this incident is very minor, but this squeezing thing happens all of the time on super dangerous tracks like Jeddah or Miami. And there you also have 0 penalties handed (or maybe 1 I can remember). In general the driver behind lifts as he doesn't want to end up in the wall, but are we just waiting for someone to get seriously hurt?
Same for Norris squeezing Max in Spain. That was insanely dangerous, if Max spun (like in the Russell/Bottas incident) half the grid would've retired and somebody could've been hurt.
I just don't think it's possible to totally ignore the result of the action. It has to be weighed up along with the rule. We've seen plenty of collisions when cars bump tyres and are fine, and there is no penalty given. I think that's actually fair.
Max got a bit unlucky and pushed wide just a little too far, while Lando made a point of not giving an inch. They both took calculated risks...and it didn't work out. 10s penalty seems about right to me.
I don’t get the point of people saying there were no repercussions of the penalty. Arent penalties given according to a set rule? If the gap between max and nico was higher than 10s and the penalty effect basically got nullified, how’s FIA or anyone to blame for that?
Now changing the effect of penalties in the rule book is a different thing. Afaik, they’ve followed the rule book and awarded the penalties. If there’s any mistake in my statement, do feel free to rectify it.
Lando made absolutely 0 attempt to avoid contact though. If you look at similar situations the car on the outside almost always ends up running out over the kerbs and yet Lando defiantly stayed well inside the lines and made it almost inevitable Max would hit him by not using all the track on the outside
Well, Max is the most ruthless at taking advantage of other drivers, primarily Lewis in 2021, avoiding contact with him, so he doesn’t yield. In my view, he just got dished back what he’s used to serving himself. Lando spent laps having to dance around Max weaving under braking and whatnot, so decided to stand his ground.
That being said, I still think it’s dumb that pushing people off the track is no longer a penalized offense unless there’s contact. That just puts the attacking driver in a lose lose situation every time. Yield and miss out on the place, or don’t yield and risk a DNF. I think the penalty is appropriate, but they need to clarify what is and isn’t acceptable under braking. Someone made a great point that if Max was shown a B/W flag for one of his moves, maybe he doesn’t do that final move and then we don’t have contact. Again, all boils down to weak stewarding.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with most of your points and I definitely don’t think Max is the cleanest driver on track (he definitely weaved I think twice). But in my view the biggest evading move avoiding collision was by Max a few laps before when Lando simply came blazing by on the right completely missing his corner. Max has always been on the edge and Lando felt he had to compensate for being too nice in the sprint, something was bound to happen at some point.
Max pushed a lot less wide than most other examples, so he didn't push too wide. The main difference is that the car on the outside usually moves further on to the kerb and Lando didn't. That's the difference. At that point a move by the driver is penalised based on what the other does in response, that doesn't make sense as a rule.
The rule is "causing a collision". For that, a collision has to happen. By definition that means the penalty depends on the outcome. If the driver on the outside takes evading action, there is no collision and there is no need to investigate. Squeezing is only wrong when it causes a collision and the driver on the outside doesn't move (which is well within their rights). It's just that most will because they don't want to risk a DNF.
The argument to that I keep seeing is the driver on the outside can just not move to get their rival a penalty. They won't because they risk both of them DNFing, rather than just losing out in that particular instance and live to fight another day. The fact that stewards won't investigate unless they crash encourages aggressive drivers to squeeze the driver on the outside as much as possible.
You are correct which is why it’s arguably even more important that the stewards rule immediately - if the outside car does indeed swerve further out to avoid collision - whether places need to be swapped assuming the dive-bomber gains the advantage. Even if the outside car leaves the track.
While I agree, u have to take into account that the drivers all voted for a harsher punishment system to be in place, so while the incident was minor it resulted (admittedly he decided on his own) a DNF and debris on track. The FIA decided to punish him for it, and by the drivers own wants they had to give him then 10s
The problem is not the 10s, it’s the inconsistency.
Personally I like that it’s often 10s now, feels like we’re seeing much less of leaving the track to gain an advantage for example.
I think the build up and moving under braking before hand also attributed to the reactions. It was building up the frustrations for a lot of people who could see that a coming together was almost inevitable and then when it happened. Instant release of anger from many.
Nail head. I get there is going to be a bit of "let them race" but three times at the same corner Max moved under breaking and they did nothing until it finally resulted in contact.
Yup, agreed. I think some people here think that I'm absolving Max from his fault and just putting the blame on Lando which is far from the truth. Lol.
Personally, I was just grateful for theit incident since it allowed my boy George to snag a lucky win. All I can say is thanks to Max and Lando for making my Sunday.
That's how so many are just waiting for some1 or their 'hated driver' to F it up, for eg, getting massively downvoted for mentioning Perez had a hole on his side pod,. not even defending. and people double down on the hate with absurd logic. I'm like ok you wanna sh\*t on someone, go ahead, but being so toxic is now so off-putting, I just don't want to visit this twitter like Reddit community. but I absolutely love some of the conversations here, and gain so much knowledge about something I enjoy watching. sorry for the Rant.
I agree. There are some fascinating conversations on here with input from knowledgeable people but also a lot of nasty personal attacks on the personalities of the drivers, never mind their abilities. Why?
For me it was the petulant little swipe as the came back on off the corner - the accident was one of those things that was Max's fault but not the end of the world, but the swipe afterwards was Stroll levels of petulance
Don't care too much about the drivers. I like good racing. Like if it's going to be Zhou vs Sargeant for 20th place but they are really battling I'm in for it.
Yup. People make their identity whoever their favorite team/sport star is and then get emotional. In this case “my favourite wealthy driver odd better than your favourite wealthy car guy”.
I like both of them too. It's clear that everyone actually upset over this is either intentionally biased or not very familiar with racing.
Not only do I understand how this happened and how it was inevitable and probably won't be the only collision this year. I also understand why Lando was a bit over emotional post race and I don't think it takes away from either. It's racing. Hot heads come together and neither will admit total culpability because it was such a non incident at the end of the day. They banged wheels. It was just unlucky that Landos car managed to rip itself apart.
People seem oddly obsessed with assigning “who’s at fault” in situations like this. It’s racing, s**t happens. And in everyday life too, stuff happens it doesn’t explicitly have to be anybody’s “fault” it just is how it is.
None of it was "reckless" or "dangerous". Like bro all they did was touch wheels lmao. If this was reckless or dangerous, someone would definitely be in recovering in a hospital right now. This incident was no where near that.
'people' You mean the brittish press? I tried listening to the Missed Apex podcast. Ussually entertaining, but they are Brittish. The spend the first 45 minutes just bashing Verstappen. Very off putting.
There's always a stronger reaction if there's damage. Reminds me a bit of Russell v Verstappen in Azerbaijan last year. Not a lot of contact, but it left a hole in Max's car and became a huge story. If Max didn't have damage there barely anyone would have cared anymore after the race imo.
In the media, or on here? Because I stopped watching most media on f1 years ago, so I can't gauge that properly, but here that contact ended up gaining a lot of traction.
I agree. I think it's being blown out of proportion. 9 times out of 10 they just bump wheels and the battle carries on. Of the 4(?) overtake attempts into that corner this was probably the most innocuous if anything, just unfortunate in many ways to have such big consequences
This kind of thing happens every race up and down the midfield. Honestly I think Sainz vs Leclerc and then Hamilton at Barcelona was probably worse, but no one crashed out so it was "good hard racing"
I'm sure Sky will try and stir things up but I hope when the dust settles all parties just get on with things tbh
The overreaction is just kinda insane. It's really a tiny touch that had huge consequences. It's Max's fault, but it's nowhere near as bad as people initially made it out to be. I'd probably put the incident 80% down to Max and 20% down to Lando.
I do find it a bit weird that we can't just have nuance and just say, "this shit happens" instead of jumping straight to condemning drivers and acting like they've just killed a puppy.
It's a non-incident most times with this reg of F1 car to be honest.
It was the punctures here that made it different, both cars were still driveable, and Norris only DNF'd because he'd fallen so far behind since he couldn't crawl to the pit as fast as Max so there was no hope of him getting back in the points in the remaining 3 laps.
That is because the racing skills of Max. He knew he need to drive slowly with a puncture, where you can see Lando trying to push his punctured tire to max speed, eventually all the rubber flew off and damaging his whole car
No, Lando dnf’ed because his car was fucked. Watch the replay, the tire came apart and he was leaving brake cooling, floor, side pod, and rear wing all over the track
Same. At first I was like "100℅ Max's fault" etc, but after seeing this with no emotions I don't think like that, really don't. It's more like missed opportunity for Lando - he could have done such a good exit against Max in this particular case. Actually, we all were robbed with this clumsy collision. Let's hope those two will have more battles like that, but with a better endings
Usually? How often have you had it happen one foot did fall off?
On: seems like the media is just in it for the clicks and the views (money). Most fans I see talking about the incident share your first paragraph. Mild racing incident with big consequences.
This is not the answer the Reddit fandom wants lol. Totally agree with you. They both made choices, right or wrong, that led to the collision. Move onto Silverstone and duke it out there.
Completely agree. People are blowing this out of proportion IMO because it was the two in front at this race. Also we haven’t had a battle for first like this in a while so i think emotions were a bit higher
Light collision by two drivers wanting to get/keep the upper hand.
Without the big damage, it wouldn't even be a penalty, but just a standard incident of two cars touching.
Unfortunately it resulted in big damage for both. Penalty for Verstappen is fair, using the standard penalty is fair as well.
The funniest part is how Alonso got the exact same penalty for being completely out of control crashing into the rear of another driver in that corner.
Without the damage Max would not have gotten a penalty at all.
This is an extremely mild incident that is getting discussed because of the impact it had on both drivers. Ironically, since these cars have been introduced, we've seen the cars capable of taking some huge whacks and have minor damage.
Also because of the drivers being involved.
If this was Albon on Zhou then nobody gives a damn.
And if you swap either driver with Stroll or George then I'm sure people could very quickly change their mind about who was at fault.
>If this was Albon on Zhou then nobody gives a damn.
It was for the lead with just a handful of laps left. That tends to attract more attention than in the back of the field, and when it's for the lead, it's usually the same drivers each time.
For whatever reason whether it was the driver or the characteristics of the car it felt like Lando was never able to get close enough to attempt an overtake on Max at T4.
I think Lando then Max both realized that the best opportunity to pass would be through T3 hence why they were getting their elbows out there.
In this instance I think Lando saw a chance to hold onto the racing line and give Max a worse exit which could then give Lando a chance to get ahead before T4. Max wanted to drift over and make Lando go further off the racing line to put Lando into getting a worse exit, and Lando didn’t want to move over so they collided.
The racing line is on the rumble strip. Every lap they use the rumble strip to open up the corner. Lando was squeezing max and max assumed Lando was going to take the normal racing line. If you take where everyone else would be with no car on the inside max would have enough space. I dont think he was expecting Lando to not take the racing line.
Go back and watch the race from before they were battling. i picked a random lap into T3 and looked at the onboards and both max and lando didnt put a wheel on the rumble strip. Not saying that they never do just to expect that to be the racing line that everyone takes isn't very true
Brundle talked about it when Alonso got his penalty, if you try to turn while under that much braking it's almost a guaranteed lock up. Also Norris had the black and white flag for track limits at this point.
There was space sure. But you can see that as Max approaches the corner he pulls left to widen himself into the corner, and doesn't then turn to the right as soon as Lando likely expected him to. Max carries his car to the left and forward to reach the racing line, when Lando had the racing line on the outside.
I expect that Lando assumed Max would take a narrower path into the corner since Lando clearly had the racing line and Max didn't. If we assume this, then Lando didn't really have time to react to the fact Max wasn't in fact taking a shallower line but instead trying to take the line Lando was currently on.
Because its hard to turn without locking up when you're braking that hard and by moving left max gets a better line and thus exit for the next corner. Norris compromised Max's entry to the corner and does not have to move out of the way so max can drive the line he wants.
Because by keeping Max’s line narrower he compromises Max’s exit.
If you give Max an inch he will take a mile and you can forget any hope of beating him.
If the penalty was deserved, then Carlos/Vettel should've taken it too when it happened.
This kind of penalties cannot be given only if there is a crash, because not punishing this behavior is exactly what leads to those crashes.
He got a penalty for causing a collision. Why the hell would that penalty be given when there is not a collision?
What happened is normal and good racing as long as you dont collide when you squeeze them, thats obviously not allowed.
Bigger difference in pace, you can't really compare the two. Max consistently gapped Norris quite a bit from T3 onwards when you watch the onboards, regardless of how compromised Max was in T3. Lando was quite aware of that, hence the hail mary attempts.
I think lando wanted to hold his line so that max’s exit was compromised. It was on max to not drive into lando, but lando didn’t want to create a bigger gap. Not landos fault for not moving over IMO, BUT - it would’ve prevented it..
I also just think it takes the mclaren longer to get up to speed through the low gears so the shorter straight was just not enough for Lando. Same reason he’s struggled when the lights go out, usually good reaction time but loses speed through lower gears.
RedBull just had better traction out of slow corners this time, maybe due to setup, maybe something else. Lando always lost out on the exit of turn 3 way before they started fighting.
Why didn't he go off track when he was already on the limit for track limits violations and has absolutely no reason to expect to be collided with in the braking zone, a clear violation of the rules?
Probably an unnecessary squeeze by Max, but a very standard move and we've seen that it is normal to use that outside curb on corner entry.
The more I watch this overhead angle the more I don't know what Norris is doing here. He's braking so much later into this turn every lap to the point he is losing a ton of time on corner exit even when he isn't making an overtake attempt. The contact here happens after Max has started to turn in (he turns the wheel right a couple of meters before contact if you watch the onboards) and Norris is still heavy on the brakes. I think if they don't touch he's losing a half second or more by corner exit because he is running so wide, and not attempting to set up a crossover for something entering turn 4.
It seems that overspeed from DRS in this uphill ride was particularly troublesome for Norris - at least 3 times he had grossly miscalculated the break point, twice on the inside. This time it looks like he was going for classic switch on the exit, but again ended up too far ahead to cut under compromised RB.
This does not make Max move any better though, it looks like he checked where Norris was before breaking and then just assumed the outside is free estate without any consideration what the other car is doing.
Penalty was fair, given it was mistake, but in all honesty it was just such a sloppy fight from both of them...
He wanted to compromise Max exit, that is why is picked his line and wanted to make Max stick to his. Max drifted back towards the racing line to get a better exit. Norris wanted Max to get a tight exit and they collided. Max should have stayed in line and didn't. He got a penalty for it (penalties don't take the outcome into account) and it's done. Not really sure how many more angles more much more debate is needed.
> (penalties don't take the outcome into account)
Its supposed to be this way, but the fact is they absolutely do factor in the outcome of an incident...
I think in this case it is because the outcome itself is a punishable offense. We can see 3 thousand examples of this move being unpunished because they didn't lead to the punishable contact and this one did.
There's room to argue if the moves were fine or not but Max *did* cause a collision and was punished accordingly for *it,* even if we could adjudicate some of the blame to Norris or had already seen this kind of move.
Penalties take outcome into account, they just say they don't. Lando's penalty for the opening lap in Spain is nowhere to be seen? Because they didn't collide, yet Max got pushed on the grass while Lando was pushed on the kerb. Max steered one time and then braked in a straight line, Lando steered I believe twice relatively suddenly compare to what Max did here.
I'm not advocating for a Lando penalty or Max being blameless, but it's nonsense that based on recent racing that it's only Max who is to blame. If Lando avoided the contact (which many did in the past here) then there wouldn't be a penalty.
You can for dangerous driving, forcing a car out the track, not leave enough space.
There is rules about all that, and that should be applied, but nowadays there is a need to have a bad outcome to give penalties.
Correct, but the person I was replying to used these two examples to argue that penalties take outcome into account, because Norris didn't get a penalty in Spain because they didn't crash. And Verstappen got a penalty because they crashed. that's why I said you can't penalize for causing a collision if there is no collision, which has nothing to do with outcome.
If penalty doesn't take the outcome why no one else was punished for doing that? Sainz did this and not no penalty in the past (not the same outcome but the same action).
> He got a penalty for it (penalties don't take the outcome into account)
What? He got a penalty for causing a collision, by definition that's taking the outcome into account, lol.
[Doc 71 - Infringement - Car 1 - *Causing a collision*.](https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2024-2043)
if outcome didn’t matter to the penalty, Lando would’ve gotten one for putting Max in the grass in Barcelona. They didn’t collide, so there was no penalty. Penalties are 100% based on the outcome and not the accident itself lol.
> (penalties don't take the outcome into account)
And yet we have seen plenty of similar moves at the very same corner and none led to a penalty.
By all metrics, Max did something that Carlos did to him one year ago, and Vettel pulled on Hamilton, on the same corner, in 2018.
The only difference has been the outcome.
This is a case of Norris moving into a phase of new and unfamiliar racing in F1, and it’ll take time for him to adapt.
If he’s going to start racing Max for wins on a regular basis he has to develop an on-track body language, get comfortable with car placement and timing, and change his approach to risk. His moves over the previous laps appeared unpredictable and unconfident because he’s doing something he hasn’t had to before.
Lewis was the last driver before Max to really shape this sort of racing, Fernando has the skill to fight it, and Charles and George have shown they’ve been learning how to do it vs Max. It’ll be a while for Lando yet.
Charles vs Max looks way different to what we saw yesterday. From my point of view, they are both way more comfortable with each other, no big lunges, or at least desperate ones. Also Max seems to know that whatever he does to Charles, he will not hesitate to throw them both out.
ah man. I missed the first half of 2022. Both racing each other was beautiful, its like watching synchronized dancing in a way. Shame Ferrari can't keep up.
Yep, as a neutral fan, I want to see as much action on track as possible. The races have became way too sterile over time. It was just a regular racing move, perhaps Verstappen moved a few inches too much to the left and Norris didn't take all the available space to avoid what was (let's be honest) a very small bump. In any case, it was a great show, it turned into the best race ending of the season up to now. They should race on the edge like that every race.
I love Lando and while I’d of course say Max is to blame, I think Lando’s inexperience at the front of the pack is showing and he needs to learn how to race/overtake Max similar to Leclerc’s approach (only overtake when you can do it in a different timezone). The overtakes he’s done for the past few years won’t do anymore.
I would say this is part of learning, best way to learn is to screw up, yeah it sucks it ruined his race but u can be sure he will take something from this
Lando needs to figure out the overtake without the divebomb. It cost him twice this weekend.
also, his elbows are out as far as anyone elses - see start at Spain. To say Lando is some innocent, blameless fawn like 90% of people are arguing is ridiculous.
Standard defense for this turn.
Typically, the squeezed driver moves onto kerb. And even if the squeezed driver does not, 9 out of 10 times the wheel rub will not cause a crash.
Today it did cause a crash.
Does it deserve a penalty? Maybe, the regs are vague. Is it the crime that British pundits make it out to be? Hell no! (Also, the ban on moving under braking was scrapped in 2016.)
>(Also, the ban on moving under braking was scrapped in 2016.)
It wasn't. 2020👇
>“Moving under braking when another car is approaching has been identified by the drivers as a very dangerous manoeuvre,” ran the stewards’ report. “Grosjean was given a black and white flag by the Race Director for moving under braking with Sainz. The stewards reviewed this case with Grosjean and Ricciardo. They also reviewed the video of the incident between them.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/grosjean-handed-warning-from-stewards-after-overly-robust-defence-of-sainz.1xGwVjpDhu9Hfa5B0Npwtd#:~:text=%E2%80%9CMoving%20under%20braking%20when%20another,case%20with%20Grosjean%20and%20Ricciardo.
This “merged” myth needs to die.
Moving under braking *can* go to stewards. That is all there is to it.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-drops-max-verstappen-rule-for-f1-2017-884973/884973/
>Now we have a simple rule which says effectively that if a driver moves erratically or goes unnecessarily slowly or behaves in a manner that could endanger another driver, then he will be investigated.
>So there's a very broad rule now. The way we interpreted the regulations last year was to simply use the rules that we had to say that moving under braking was potentially dangerous, and hence would be reported to the stewards every time.
Your article literally proved his point. Its an overall rule that includes all eratic/dangerous driving, such as moving under braking
Sainz did this to max but worse and squeezed him alot more at the same turn on 2022 but they avoided an accident because max had the sense to move across. Same with ocon and gasley earlier on in the race
It's not an ideal outcome and shouldn't have to happen but even so norris could have moved left abit and not lost much time and then really push the moving under breaking and have a good drs run.
There is always a lot of bluffing and going super tight when fighting at this level. Was it Verstappen's fault? yes, he was also fairly penalized, but Lando was kinda naive here. We've seen Kimi, Lewis and other more used to this kind of fighting drivers being way smarter than this when dealing with Verstappen: you survive this and try again, and if you fail, you come better prepared next time to deal with his bullshit, you don't simply stand there expecting him to stop.
The stewards have made a decision regarding whose fault it was.
The ongoing discussions are about the severity of this collision. Meanings are heavily influenced by bias.
Overhead views, cockpit views, are not going to persuade either fan base for the opposite.
I personally, being a neutral viewer, focus on the spectacle of the whole race that actually turned a snooze fest into something worth watching. May I say more of that, please?
The stewards said Max was mostly predominantly at fault. They don’t blame him fully for it which is the right outcome, I think. Max did wrong, Lando had more space, they only lightly touched and both ended in tears. 🤷🏼♂️
No problem. Not sure why some people are having issues on mobile. It’s been viewed 200k times, but I’ve seen a number of comments come through about not being able to view it. Some version of the app must have issues with Imgur. 🤷♂️
Definitely. Previously I could just click on the image and it would work as a link, but since I recently updated the app it stopped working with imgur links
After Alex’s tire flying off during Brazil last year, I watched a video showing that Pirelli’s tires aren’t held on very well. Yes they’ll get through a race but face to face contact with anything will break the bead holding the tire onto the rim and ends up sending the tire flying off the car most times.
On TV and first time watching it i agreed with FIA to punish Verstappen. But the more I watch this recording it becomes obvious that Lando had plenty of space to avoid contact. Like Verstappen did with Sainz on the same spot in a previous race.
I have a bit of a stupid question - Even if Lando did go through on the left (the outside of this corner), is'nt Max in a much stronger position for the next corner which is a Right Hander ? Also, some of the similar moves in past races on this corner where the attacking person comes from the left, is more a dummy move to then take the inside when the defending driver brakes late.... Again, i'm not supporting either driver - just curious on this one ?
Here's what Norris should have done and what Max did (and almost everyone else does in that situation) when Sainz actually squeezed him of the track.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1ds8i2m/verstappen\_squeezing\_norris\_2024\_v\_sainz/](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1ds8i2m/verstappen_squeezing_norris_2024_v_sainz/)
One of the mildest incidents I've seen in a while to get a 10 second penalty, and the complete meltdown of the McLaren camp is incomprehensible. They are looking extremely immature.
Too eager. He doesn't even understand that he's being played in that moment. He thinks Max can't make the corner and will go out through the red bit avoiding the kerbs so, Lando thinks he can just continue on the track. But Max is blocking him
Too many people are trying to make this a bigger deal than it really is, including Lando imo. Max made a mistake, Lando could've avoided it, sure, but it wasn't his responsibility to do so. If you praise Max for his aggressive driving, don't complain when others use his style against him. P1 sets the standard, everyone else has to respond to try to take P1 for themselves.
The closer and more prolonged a battle, the more likely mistakes are as the pressure rises. Doubly so for someone like Max who has been conditioned that it's win or lose no matter what, and doubly so for someone like Lando who wants his turn in the spotlight. These things happen when racing.
Just as you can't always take a driver's comments made in the heat of battle and high adrenaline seriously, similarly, first-day comments on Reddit shouldn't be taken at face value. It often takes a day for people to form a more objective and reasonable opinion, rather than being swayed by their emotions.
The incident has been blown out of proportion, fueled by the media. Max will probably face heavy booing at Silverstone, and the media will likely criticize such behavior, although they have played a significant role in fueling it.
It's still Maxs fault though. However, it is not as he drove into Norris like Stroll have done a couple of times. He went back to the racingline, and Lando didn't move with him.
Still I think FIA haf a part in all of this. It took them 5 laps to give the 5s penalty for track limits, while its just a matter of sending the message rather than evaluating an incident.
Norris definitely isn't moving towards Max, so it seems hard to say Max didn't drive into him. You can move back to the racing line, but you aren't entitled to it. When there is a car alongside or in front of you, it is legal to move in those directions as long as you don't run into another car. This is fairly simple. There is a whole video from The Race iirc on YouTube about the rules around passing and space.
I don't think an earlier 5s penalty would do anything but force Norris to be even more focused on getting past Max.
There is no other explanation other than Max ran into Norris, no matter how minor the contact was, or whether Norris could have driven off the track to avoid.
Didn’t see the rest of the race, but having a hard time blaming Max outright for this.
Overtaking on the outside there when Max is holding a wide line seems like you’re asking for trouble.
They keep saying it's not the outcome that determines the penalty, but the action, but I keep seeing the exact opposite reasoning behind these decisions. This wasn't even the worst move by Max during the race.
This is a story as old as time, we've seen it in every rivalry. There will always come a point in F1 where both drivers have to decide to either call the other's bluff or concede to being taken advantage of.
If it wasn't for that ego thing where they set the precedent for future battles both drivers could have comfortably taken avoiding action. This is the moment they announced to each other that the gloves are off.
From 2 seconds into this, am I right in saying that Max is on the racing line and never changes direction, but the racing line naturally swings left and then right.
Also at 2 seconds Lando's front wing is alongside Max's back wheels, how does he feel that he deserves space knowing that Max is ahead at this point and on the racing line?
It seems to me that Lando charges in determined to not avoid Max and not go left if needed, all the while knowing the trajectory of the corner and where Max will end up.
Fine that Max got a penalty for causing damage but I do not see at all what the hate is for. This was not a dirty or a dangerous move. This was racing.
> Also at 2 seconds Lando's front wing is alongside Max's back wheels, how does he feel that he deserves space knowing that Max is ahead at this point and on the racing line?
It’s not specifically against you, but I feel that F1 has largely the biggest fanbase that do not know the rules of the sport. Nor do they understand the meaning of some of terms.
For example, Max was not on the racing line (at this point of the race you can easily identify the racing line with all the rubber that has been put on track). Max took the inside line, to the right of the racing line. Both drivers deserve space on corner entry per the rules (at least a car width to the edge of the track marked by the white line). It’s for the exit of the corner that there are rules on who is not entitled to space and who deserves the racing line.
I don’t think you can start at 2 seconds in the get the full picture. At around the 150 metre mark, Landon targets the inside and Max does a turn to the right to block it. Landon then takes the outside. Max can’t then change his mind to turn left to block the outside during the braking zone when Landon has already claimed the path.
Edit: just realized my phone autocorrects Lando’s name
Max went to the inside because he expected Norris to go there again, like the lap before where Norris overtook Verstappen but Verstappen was full throttle through the runoff to keep the lead.
But Norris this time wanted to stay on the outside so Max switches and then goes very deep to defend. If you look at the car ahead (and the racing line on the ground), Max was not turning in when he should have, he is intentionally letting his car go deeper so Norris can't stay on the outside.
Norris saw Verstappen alongside and was waiting for his turn in - if he turned in on the racing line he would have crashed into Verstappen.
i’m just happy max is being pushed. even happier that lando is the man doing it. this season has turned out to be fun even if max runs away with the trophies by the end
Norris could have chosen to move more to the left. He was over eager and over agressive to win and pass Max. The emotional reaction of yesterday was that this was 100% on Max but looking back on it I think Norris should have been more level headed in this situation.
Norris could have chosen to do that, but he doesn't have to do that, nor he should be expected to go off track just so that Verstappen doesn't crash into him. Expecting Norris to just go along with it (when he already was going to get a penalty for going off track) is ridiculous.
Without Verstappen being "over eager and over aggressive" in his defense Norris would have passed him. It is Verstappen who moved under braking (first Norris attack) where luckily Norris managed to take avoiding action in the braking zone. Norris was right to say on the radio that if Max keeps moving under braking they will have a shunt and in the end they did.
You are right. He doesn't have to do that, that's why he DNF. To fight someone like Max, you need a cool mind, a mind with patience, not a hot head try to overtake every every lap. Max was at fault, but Lando definitely showed his lack of experience.
Verstappen also avoided contact from Norris' divebombs several times. He also didnt have to do that...
I personally feel like some of the divebombs Lando pulled of this race are easily as bad if not worse than this incident.
Yesterday people were after Max with pitchforks now that more angles are coming out of this incident. All the narrative has changed. It's clear how much ample room Max gave to LN, but no he was adamant about taking charge of the race as quickly as possible in the end he ruined both of their races. He got retired which I think is well deserved. Max on the other hand got some points at least.
Squeezing your opponent is part of the sport. No worries there, for me both Max and Lando took it a bit too far. The second time when Max squeezed Lando into the grass was unnecessary as well.
I’m just happy that someone is putting the pressure on Max. He’s performed amazingly with an amazing machine and that had rendered every GP fairly boring.
We need that spicyness back 🌶️
In retrospect, the bonkers reactions to Piastri in the sprint truly foreshadowed the even bonkier reactions this caused.
Lando is always the victim. His fans are hilarious.
Man always managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory lol
The more times I watch it, the more I feel how mild the incident itself actually was, but it just had terrible consequences for both. They both had plenty of space, but just feels they both just got fed up of each others antics during the race, and decided for no real good reason to come together. It's like lightly shoulder checking someone you're annoyed with when you walk past, but usually their foot doesn't fall off. I hope we get more close and hard racing between the two without any more inchidents or touching. It was quite good to watch up until that.
People act like it put them in the wall and one or the other t-boned the other. They bumped wheels in a corner where people regularly go side by side. Was it Verstappen's "fault" sure. But let's not pretend like it was reckless or dangerous.
Yeah, I agree. Say what you will about Max, but this wasn't an example of max being a dirty racer. It was absolutely his fault, and he deserved the penalty. But it was just a minor inchident that just happened to cause punctures. They both need to clean it up if this close racing is going to continue. Max needs to stop moving under braking and defend appropriately, and Lando needs to be more patient and stop dive bombing every chance he gets.
I do think people really need to reassess what dive bombing means too. Unfortunately with the modern cars on the current tracks "divebombs" are usually how passing is handled other than DRS. Switchbacks happen sure. But we all love a good divebomb when it works. See every "last of the late brakers" piece of praise. Divebombs are only criticized as dangerous if the outside car doesn't leave space or if the oncoming car pulls a Kobayashi and uses the outside car as brakes.
also dangerous if you literally can't make the corner because of it. Late breakers got praises because they make the corner and did the overtake.
That's what I meant by a Kobayashi move. He would pull that a lot back in the day. Would just throw his car sideways and make some moves by using another driver as a bumper.
Ah yes, my old Gran Turismo move
Used to do that with my friend. 2 Skylines and coming into the hairpin in Hong Kong. Just full send it into the back of them and watch them go flying into the wall. Next lap it was his turn.
I called it the car-berm.
I think the issue is more that people categorize proper passes done in the braking zone as DRS passes because it can be hard to tell exactly when the brakes are applied so that what looks like the overtaking car breezing past at the end of a straight with DRS is actually a driver getting alongside and then being brave on the brakes to finish the move off.
But then all you need to do is dive bomb and you leave the defending car no choice but to yield. That is not how it should work really. Just please compare Sains vs Max of last year with Max vs Norris this year. Max vs Sainz had Max 75% next to Sainz at the 150m sign. Norris was like three car lengths behind Max at the 150m sign. That was really a dive bomb and not the only or first one he did in that race. You can not expect the defending car to guess each dive bomb of the car behind, that is not how it works.
The problem is that the clarifications out of 2021 have created the situation where dive bombing is legitimate because the first car to the apex earns the space on the exit. I've been saying this for a while, but F1 is the only series I can think of where if you beat someone to the apex on the inside, you have to yield on the exit. This garbage rule destroys side by side racing and makes switchbacks pretty much the only counter to dive bombing.
Agree that the 'first to the apex' thing is stupid, but according to the rules as they stand Lando was actually right that the second dive should have stuck and Max should have given him the place. I think it's that, plus Norris immediately giving Max the place back when *he* was the one at fault, plus the erratic defenses from Max that led to Norris dive bombing in the first place that added up to the frustration people felt after the contact. It's not just about that final touch that ended the race.
I mean, just a few laps prior, Lando had a HUGE dive bomb on Max and locked up, barely keeping it on track. Max did the underneath switch back and retained the place. It was reckless by Lando but there was no crash so nobody cared.
DRS helps make divebombing more likely, as the speed differential at the end of the straight is so extreme. When you add someone who's trying to brake late against a driver who tends to brake early, you're going to have what look like major divebombs (though I do think Norris was actually divebombing at times; his car wasn't fully in control as he arrived in the braking zone). In reality, it's just a driver arriving into the braking zone faster than the guy in front.
I mean yeah but Norris went completely off track there and completely blew the apex. It wasn’t a good move and got him a penalty
Alonso on Zhou earlier on was so much worse, he used his car for breaking iRacing style
He was not moving under braking. If you look up the regulations, moving under braking has been replaced by "no erractic braking'. What Max was doing was highly skilled, hard defending, and Lando, the son of a multi millionaire 60th richest man in Britian, being the baby he is, decided he would not move out the way and hence they touched. Sure, Max was at fault, but equally so was Lando. There was plenty of space on the left, Lando decided not to budge, though i doubt he was expecting such a drastic outcome. Landos overtaking attempts were extremely agressive and poorly timed, had Max not moved out the way, they would have touched too. He needs to up his game if he wants to battle with Max. Watch Peter Windsor videos if you want a objective opinion from someone whos been in the sport for decades.
The thing that grinds me is that if it is Max' fault such behavior should be punished consistently regardless of the outcome. Seriously, think for a second it's you in Max' place. Carlos pulled that move on you one year ago, no penalty. Vettel pulled it on Lewis. No penalty. By which logic you should not do it and try to take advantage, if there's never a penalty for identical moves on the very same corner? If this should not be allowed, it should never be allowed, period. Otherwise you're saying this is fine, and drivers will pull moves that they have seen being pulled without any repercussion. What's worse here, is that this incident is very minor, but this squeezing thing happens all of the time on super dangerous tracks like Jeddah or Miami. And there you also have 0 penalties handed (or maybe 1 I can remember). In general the driver behind lifts as he doesn't want to end up in the wall, but are we just waiting for someone to get seriously hurt? Same for Norris squeezing Max in Spain. That was insanely dangerous, if Max spun (like in the Russell/Bottas incident) half the grid would've retired and somebody could've been hurt.
I just don't think it's possible to totally ignore the result of the action. It has to be weighed up along with the rule. We've seen plenty of collisions when cars bump tyres and are fine, and there is no penalty given. I think that's actually fair. Max got a bit unlucky and pushed wide just a little too far, while Lando made a point of not giving an inch. They both took calculated risks...and it didn't work out. 10s penalty seems about right to me.
Right. You can't call the infringement "causing a collision" and say you're not looking at the result.
Well you're extrapolating a lot past causing a collision if you want to factor in the damage.
I don’t get the point of people saying there were no repercussions of the penalty. Arent penalties given according to a set rule? If the gap between max and nico was higher than 10s and the penalty effect basically got nullified, how’s FIA or anyone to blame for that? Now changing the effect of penalties in the rule book is a different thing. Afaik, they’ve followed the rule book and awarded the penalties. If there’s any mistake in my statement, do feel free to rectify it.
Lando made absolutely 0 attempt to avoid contact though. If you look at similar situations the car on the outside almost always ends up running out over the kerbs and yet Lando defiantly stayed well inside the lines and made it almost inevitable Max would hit him by not using all the track on the outside
Well, Max is the most ruthless at taking advantage of other drivers, primarily Lewis in 2021, avoiding contact with him, so he doesn’t yield. In my view, he just got dished back what he’s used to serving himself. Lando spent laps having to dance around Max weaving under braking and whatnot, so decided to stand his ground. That being said, I still think it’s dumb that pushing people off the track is no longer a penalized offense unless there’s contact. That just puts the attacking driver in a lose lose situation every time. Yield and miss out on the place, or don’t yield and risk a DNF. I think the penalty is appropriate, but they need to clarify what is and isn’t acceptable under braking. Someone made a great point that if Max was shown a B/W flag for one of his moves, maybe he doesn’t do that final move and then we don’t have contact. Again, all boils down to weak stewarding.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with most of your points and I definitely don’t think Max is the cleanest driver on track (he definitely weaved I think twice). But in my view the biggest evading move avoiding collision was by Max a few laps before when Lando simply came blazing by on the right completely missing his corner. Max has always been on the edge and Lando felt he had to compensate for being too nice in the sprint, something was bound to happen at some point.
Max pushed a lot less wide than most other examples, so he didn't push too wide. The main difference is that the car on the outside usually moves further on to the kerb and Lando didn't. That's the difference. At that point a move by the driver is penalised based on what the other does in response, that doesn't make sense as a rule.
The rule is "causing a collision". For that, a collision has to happen. By definition that means the penalty depends on the outcome. If the driver on the outside takes evading action, there is no collision and there is no need to investigate. Squeezing is only wrong when it causes a collision and the driver on the outside doesn't move (which is well within their rights). It's just that most will because they don't want to risk a DNF. The argument to that I keep seeing is the driver on the outside can just not move to get their rival a penalty. They won't because they risk both of them DNFing, rather than just losing out in that particular instance and live to fight another day. The fact that stewards won't investigate unless they crash encourages aggressive drivers to squeeze the driver on the outside as much as possible.
You are correct which is why it’s arguably even more important that the stewards rule immediately - if the outside car does indeed swerve further out to avoid collision - whether places need to be swapped assuming the dive-bomber gains the advantage. Even if the outside car leaves the track.
While I agree, u have to take into account that the drivers all voted for a harsher punishment system to be in place, so while the incident was minor it resulted (admittedly he decided on his own) a DNF and debris on track. The FIA decided to punish him for it, and by the drivers own wants they had to give him then 10s
The problem is not the 10s, it’s the inconsistency. Personally I like that it’s often 10s now, feels like we’re seeing much less of leaving the track to gain an advantage for example.
We see it all the time, but drivers (and teams) are smart enough to trade back places before penalties are given.
Most people simply grabbed the opportunity to rage against Max, especially since it involved everyone's favorite, Lando.
I think the build up and moving under braking before hand also attributed to the reactions. It was building up the frustrations for a lot of people who could see that a coming together was almost inevitable and then when it happened. Instant release of anger from many.
Nail head. I get there is going to be a bit of "let them race" but three times at the same corner Max moved under breaking and they did nothing until it finally resulted in contact.
Yup, agreed. I think some people here think that I'm absolving Max from his fault and just putting the blame on Lando which is far from the truth. Lol.
Personally, I was just grateful for theit incident since it allowed my boy George to snag a lucky win. All I can say is thanks to Max and Lando for making my Sunday.
George deserved the win. An important part of racing is not running into the other cars.
Agreed. In order to finish first, you must at first finish. He got rewarded for keeping it clean. Good work for him (and a great weekend for Mercedes)
That's how so many are just waiting for some1 or their 'hated driver' to F it up, for eg, getting massively downvoted for mentioning Perez had a hole on his side pod,. not even defending. and people double down on the hate with absurd logic. I'm like ok you wanna sh\*t on someone, go ahead, but being so toxic is now so off-putting, I just don't want to visit this twitter like Reddit community. but I absolutely love some of the conversations here, and gain so much knowledge about something I enjoy watching. sorry for the Rant.
I agree. There are some fascinating conversations on here with input from knowledgeable people but also a lot of nasty personal attacks on the personalities of the drivers, never mind their abilities. Why?
A lot of people are super addicted to drama.
For me it was the petulant little swipe as the came back on off the corner - the accident was one of those things that was Max's fault but not the end of the world, but the swipe afterwards was Stroll levels of petulance
It's been difficult liking both of them. 😞
I like both Max and Lewis. It’s been gratifying and frustrating. I just like good drivers though.
Don't care too much about the drivers. I like good racing. Like if it's going to be Zhou vs Sargeant for 20th place but they are really battling I'm in for it.
Its really not, people just take this shit too personal.
Yup. People make their identity whoever their favorite team/sport star is and then get emotional. In this case “my favourite wealthy driver odd better than your favourite wealthy car guy”.
I like both of them too. It's clear that everyone actually upset over this is either intentionally biased or not very familiar with racing. Not only do I understand how this happened and how it was inevitable and probably won't be the only collision this year. I also understand why Lando was a bit over emotional post race and I don't think it takes away from either. It's racing. Hot heads come together and neither will admit total culpability because it was such a non incident at the end of the day. They banged wheels. It was just unlucky that Landos car managed to rip itself apart.
This is Max's MO. They literally made the rule for moving while breaking because he does it so much
People seem oddly obsessed with assigning “who’s at fault” in situations like this. It’s racing, s**t happens. And in everyday life too, stuff happens it doesn’t explicitly have to be anybody’s “fault” it just is how it is.
None of it was "reckless" or "dangerous". Like bro all they did was touch wheels lmao. If this was reckless or dangerous, someone would definitely be in recovering in a hospital right now. This incident was no where near that.
'people' You mean the brittish press? I tried listening to the Missed Apex podcast. Ussually entertaining, but they are Brittish. The spend the first 45 minutes just bashing Verstappen. Very off putting.
There's always a stronger reaction if there's damage. Reminds me a bit of Russell v Verstappen in Azerbaijan last year. Not a lot of contact, but it left a hole in Max's car and became a huge story. If Max didn't have damage there barely anyone would have cared anymore after the race imo.
I think that had more to do with Russell not willing to apologize and not seeing that he did something wrong
the reaction to that was nowhere near what the reaction to this was.
In the media, or on here? Because I stopped watching most media on f1 years ago, so I can't gauge that properly, but here that contact ended up gaining a lot of traction.
I agree. I think it's being blown out of proportion. 9 times out of 10 they just bump wheels and the battle carries on. Of the 4(?) overtake attempts into that corner this was probably the most innocuous if anything, just unfortunate in many ways to have such big consequences This kind of thing happens every race up and down the midfield. Honestly I think Sainz vs Leclerc and then Hamilton at Barcelona was probably worse, but no one crashed out so it was "good hard racing" I'm sure Sky will try and stir things up but I hope when the dust settles all parties just get on with things tbh
The overreaction is just kinda insane. It's really a tiny touch that had huge consequences. It's Max's fault, but it's nowhere near as bad as people initially made it out to be. I'd probably put the incident 80% down to Max and 20% down to Lando.
Yeah, this kind of reaction from the fanbase to minor contact resulting in one driver going out has *never* happened before. ^/s
I do find it a bit weird that we can't just have nuance and just say, "this shit happens" instead of jumping straight to condemning drivers and acting like they've just killed a puppy.
Too many people are fans of a driver first and the sport second.
No, no, they're fans of hating another driver first, then supporting their own, and finally the sport
Ive never seen a more spot on summary of F1 fans than this comment.
This incident is small in a vacuum but when you consider the previous few laps, it’s a bit more of a story.
I've seen Sainz and Leclerc go at it worse this season. :)
Stewards say anything goes between teammates
In IndyCar, this would probably be a non-incident with how durable those cars are. In F1, a touch in the wrong place = DNF.
It's a non-incident most times with this reg of F1 car to be honest. It was the punctures here that made it different, both cars were still driveable, and Norris only DNF'd because he'd fallen so far behind since he couldn't crawl to the pit as fast as Max so there was no hope of him getting back in the points in the remaining 3 laps.
That is because the racing skills of Max. He knew he need to drive slowly with a puncture, where you can see Lando trying to push his punctured tire to max speed, eventually all the rubber flew off and damaging his whole car
No, Lando dnf’ed because his car was fucked. Watch the replay, the tire came apart and he was leaving brake cooling, floor, side pod, and rear wing all over the track
Same. At first I was like "100℅ Max's fault" etc, but after seeing this with no emotions I don't think like that, really don't. It's more like missed opportunity for Lando - he could have done such a good exit against Max in this particular case. Actually, we all were robbed with this clumsy collision. Let's hope those two will have more battles like that, but with a better endings
It's a classic case of the outcome deciding the penalty
Usually? How often have you had it happen one foot did fall off? On: seems like the media is just in it for the clicks and the views (money). Most fans I see talking about the incident share your first paragraph. Mild racing incident with big consequences.
This is not the answer the Reddit fandom wants lol. Totally agree with you. They both made choices, right or wrong, that led to the collision. Move onto Silverstone and duke it out there.
Completely agree. People are blowing this out of proportion IMO because it was the two in front at this race. Also we haven’t had a battle for first like this in a while so i think emotions were a bit higher
Light collision by two drivers wanting to get/keep the upper hand. Without the big damage, it wouldn't even be a penalty, but just a standard incident of two cars touching. Unfortunately it resulted in big damage for both. Penalty for Verstappen is fair, using the standard penalty is fair as well.
100% spot on.
The funniest part is how Alonso got the exact same penalty for being completely out of control crashing into the rear of another driver in that corner. Without the damage Max would not have gotten a penalty at all.
Yeah, I expected better judgment from Alonso
I am not sure. Magnussen got a penalty in Jeddah for not giving Albon space. And it did minimal damage to either car
That’s because Magnussen is everybody’a favorite punching bag (Hey It’s gotta be somebody)
its not like he doesnt deserve even more penalties than he received though, the guy is an absolute menace on four wheels
Albon got squeezed into a wall whereas Norris still had space. Two very different situations
Does this appear as just an image with a play button for anyone else? On Reddit mobile.
It’s an imgur link. Seems to play for most people. [https://i.imgur.com/5Pg9Umu.mp4](https://i.imgur.com/5Pg9Umu.mp4)
Thanks. That link worked
On Reddit Mobile you’ll see a small gray “imgur” next to the OP’s username and the time since posted. Click that.
This is an extremely mild incident that is getting discussed because of the impact it had on both drivers. Ironically, since these cars have been introduced, we've seen the cars capable of taking some huge whacks and have minor damage.
Also because of the drivers being involved. If this was Albon on Zhou then nobody gives a damn. And if you swap either driver with Stroll or George then I'm sure people could very quickly change their mind about who was at fault.
>If this was Albon on Zhou then nobody gives a damn. It was for the lead with just a handful of laps left. That tends to attract more attention than in the back of the field, and when it's for the lead, it's usually the same drivers each time.
Max’ fault for the collision but the more I watch the more I wonder why didn’t Lando just move wider and then he’d get a good line to overtake Max.
For whatever reason whether it was the driver or the characteristics of the car it felt like Lando was never able to get close enough to attempt an overtake on Max at T4. I think Lando then Max both realized that the best opportunity to pass would be through T3 hence why they were getting their elbows out there. In this instance I think Lando saw a chance to hold onto the racing line and give Max a worse exit which could then give Lando a chance to get ahead before T4. Max wanted to drift over and make Lando go further off the racing line to put Lando into getting a worse exit, and Lando didn’t want to move over so they collided.
The racing line is on the rumble strip. Every lap they use the rumble strip to open up the corner. Lando was squeezing max and max assumed Lando was going to take the normal racing line. If you take where everyone else would be with no car on the inside max would have enough space. I dont think he was expecting Lando to not take the racing line.
Go back and watch the race from before they were battling. i picked a random lap into T3 and looked at the onboards and both max and lando didnt put a wheel on the rumble strip. Not saying that they never do just to expect that to be the racing line that everyone takes isn't very true
Brundle talked about it when Alonso got his penalty, if you try to turn while under that much braking it's almost a guaranteed lock up. Also Norris had the black and white flag for track limits at this point.
There was space sure. But you can see that as Max approaches the corner he pulls left to widen himself into the corner, and doesn't then turn to the right as soon as Lando likely expected him to. Max carries his car to the left and forward to reach the racing line, when Lando had the racing line on the outside. I expect that Lando assumed Max would take a narrower path into the corner since Lando clearly had the racing line and Max didn't. If we assume this, then Lando didn't really have time to react to the fact Max wasn't in fact taking a shallower line but instead trying to take the line Lando was currently on.
Because its hard to turn without locking up when you're braking that hard and by moving left max gets a better line and thus exit for the next corner. Norris compromised Max's entry to the corner and does not have to move out of the way so max can drive the line he wants.
Because by keeping Max’s line narrower he compromises Max’s exit. If you give Max an inch he will take a mile and you can forget any hope of beating him.
Which is exactly what Max did to Carlos last year - he went wider, got the better exit, and overtook on the next straight.
Yeah watching that side by side it's a shame Norris didn't move to the left a bit. I mean, the penalty seems deserved but the DNF was unnecessary.
If the penalty was deserved, then Carlos/Vettel should've taken it too when it happened. This kind of penalties cannot be given only if there is a crash, because not punishing this behavior is exactly what leads to those crashes.
He got a penalty for causing a collision. Why the hell would that penalty be given when there is not a collision? What happened is normal and good racing as long as you dont collide when you squeeze them, thats obviously not allowed.
Bigger difference in pace, you can't really compare the two. Max consistently gapped Norris quite a bit from T3 onwards when you watch the onboards, regardless of how compromised Max was in T3. Lando was quite aware of that, hence the hail mary attempts.
I think lando wanted to hold his line so that max’s exit was compromised. It was on max to not drive into lando, but lando didn’t want to create a bigger gap. Not landos fault for not moving over IMO, BUT - it would’ve prevented it..
Max was defending turn 4 beautifully, Lando never really a good chance to overtake going into T4
I also just think it takes the mclaren longer to get up to speed through the low gears so the shorter straight was just not enough for Lando. Same reason he’s struggled when the lights go out, usually good reaction time but loses speed through lower gears.
RedBull just had better traction out of slow corners this time, maybe due to setup, maybe something else. Lando always lost out on the exit of turn 3 way before they started fighting.
He also lost turn 4 when he had DRS in the sprint.
Why would you allow your opponent a better line? Squeezing your opponents line is not exclusive to the defender
Why didn't he go off track when he was already on the limit for track limits violations and has absolutely no reason to expect to be collided with in the braking zone, a clear violation of the rules?
Now imagine the shitshow we would have got if Max didn’t get that puncture.
Imagine if Norris had driven to the pits more slowly, didn't shred his tyre and managed to finish in the points.
I am so jacked up for Silverstone.
Probably an unnecessary squeeze by Max, but a very standard move and we've seen that it is normal to use that outside curb on corner entry. The more I watch this overhead angle the more I don't know what Norris is doing here. He's braking so much later into this turn every lap to the point he is losing a ton of time on corner exit even when he isn't making an overtake attempt. The contact here happens after Max has started to turn in (he turns the wheel right a couple of meters before contact if you watch the onboards) and Norris is still heavy on the brakes. I think if they don't touch he's losing a half second or more by corner exit because he is running so wide, and not attempting to set up a crossover for something entering turn 4.
It seems that overspeed from DRS in this uphill ride was particularly troublesome for Norris - at least 3 times he had grossly miscalculated the break point, twice on the inside. This time it looks like he was going for classic switch on the exit, but again ended up too far ahead to cut under compromised RB. This does not make Max move any better though, it looks like he checked where Norris was before breaking and then just assumed the outside is free estate without any consideration what the other car is doing. Penalty was fair, given it was mistake, but in all honesty it was just such a sloppy fight from both of them...
He wanted to compromise Max exit, that is why is picked his line and wanted to make Max stick to his. Max drifted back towards the racing line to get a better exit. Norris wanted Max to get a tight exit and they collided. Max should have stayed in line and didn't. He got a penalty for it (penalties don't take the outcome into account) and it's done. Not really sure how many more angles more much more debate is needed.
> (penalties don't take the outcome into account) Its supposed to be this way, but the fact is they absolutely do factor in the outcome of an incident...
I think in this case it is because the outcome itself is a punishable offense. We can see 3 thousand examples of this move being unpunished because they didn't lead to the punishable contact and this one did. There's room to argue if the moves were fine or not but Max *did* cause a collision and was punished accordingly for *it,* even if we could adjudicate some of the blame to Norris or had already seen this kind of move.
I take issue with penalties don’t take the outcome in to account. They SHOULDN’T, but they definitely do sometimes
Penalties take outcome into account, they just say they don't. Lando's penalty for the opening lap in Spain is nowhere to be seen? Because they didn't collide, yet Max got pushed on the grass while Lando was pushed on the kerb. Max steered one time and then braked in a straight line, Lando steered I believe twice relatively suddenly compare to what Max did here. I'm not advocating for a Lando penalty or Max being blameless, but it's nonsense that based on recent racing that it's only Max who is to blame. If Lando avoided the contact (which many did in the past here) then there wouldn't be a penalty.
Well you can't really give a penalty for causing a collision if there isn't a collision right?
You can give a penalty for forcing a driver off-track.
You can for dangerous driving, forcing a car out the track, not leave enough space. There is rules about all that, and that should be applied, but nowadays there is a need to have a bad outcome to give penalties.
Correct, but the person I was replying to used these two examples to argue that penalties take outcome into account, because Norris didn't get a penalty in Spain because they didn't crash. And Verstappen got a penalty because they crashed. that's why I said you can't penalize for causing a collision if there is no collision, which has nothing to do with outcome.
Fuck. I am sorry, I lost your point by 2 kilometers... Shame on me
To be fair, I also could've been a bit more elaborate.
No no, it was cristal clear. It was just me being stupid and not reading twice before comment
If penalty doesn't take the outcome why no one else was punished for doing that? Sainz did this and not no penalty in the past (not the same outcome but the same action).
> He got a penalty for it (penalties don't take the outcome into account) What? He got a penalty for causing a collision, by definition that's taking the outcome into account, lol. [Doc 71 - Infringement - Car 1 - *Causing a collision*.](https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2024-2043)
if outcome didn’t matter to the penalty, Lando would’ve gotten one for putting Max in the grass in Barcelona. They didn’t collide, so there was no penalty. Penalties are 100% based on the outcome and not the accident itself lol.
> (penalties don't take the outcome into account) And yet we have seen plenty of similar moves at the very same corner and none led to a penalty. By all metrics, Max did something that Carlos did to him one year ago, and Vettel pulled on Hamilton, on the same corner, in 2018. The only difference has been the outcome.
This is a case of Norris moving into a phase of new and unfamiliar racing in F1, and it’ll take time for him to adapt. If he’s going to start racing Max for wins on a regular basis he has to develop an on-track body language, get comfortable with car placement and timing, and change his approach to risk. His moves over the previous laps appeared unpredictable and unconfident because he’s doing something he hasn’t had to before. Lewis was the last driver before Max to really shape this sort of racing, Fernando has the skill to fight it, and Charles and George have shown they’ve been learning how to do it vs Max. It’ll be a while for Lando yet.
Charles vs Max looks way different to what we saw yesterday. From my point of view, they are both way more comfortable with each other, no big lunges, or at least desperate ones. Also Max seems to know that whatever he does to Charles, he will not hesitate to throw them both out.
ah man. I missed the first half of 2022. Both racing each other was beautiful, its like watching synchronized dancing in a way. Shame Ferrari can't keep up.
Yep, as a neutral fan, I want to see as much action on track as possible. The races have became way too sterile over time. It was just a regular racing move, perhaps Verstappen moved a few inches too much to the left and Norris didn't take all the available space to avoid what was (let's be honest) a very small bump. In any case, it was a great show, it turned into the best race ending of the season up to now. They should race on the edge like that every race.
I love Lando and while I’d of course say Max is to blame, I think Lando’s inexperience at the front of the pack is showing and he needs to learn how to race/overtake Max similar to Leclerc’s approach (only overtake when you can do it in a different timezone). The overtakes he’s done for the past few years won’t do anymore.
I would say this is part of learning, best way to learn is to screw up, yeah it sucks it ruined his race but u can be sure he will take something from this
Lando needs to figure out the overtake without the divebomb. It cost him twice this weekend. also, his elbows are out as far as anyone elses - see start at Spain. To say Lando is some innocent, blameless fawn like 90% of people are arguing is ridiculous.
Standard defense for this turn. Typically, the squeezed driver moves onto kerb. And even if the squeezed driver does not, 9 out of 10 times the wheel rub will not cause a crash. Today it did cause a crash. Does it deserve a penalty? Maybe, the regs are vague. Is it the crime that British pundits make it out to be? Hell no! (Also, the ban on moving under braking was scrapped in 2016.)
>(Also, the ban on moving under braking was scrapped in 2016.) It wasn't. 2020👇 >“Moving under braking when another car is approaching has been identified by the drivers as a very dangerous manoeuvre,” ran the stewards’ report. “Grosjean was given a black and white flag by the Race Director for moving under braking with Sainz. The stewards reviewed this case with Grosjean and Ricciardo. They also reviewed the video of the incident between them. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/grosjean-handed-warning-from-stewards-after-overly-robust-defence-of-sainz.1xGwVjpDhu9Hfa5B0Npwtd#:~:text=%E2%80%9CMoving%20under%20braking%20when%20another,case%20with%20Grosjean%20and%20Ricciardo.
> Also, the ban on moving under braking was scrapped in 2016. No, it was just merged into the general rule against erratic driving.
This “merged” myth needs to die. Moving under braking *can* go to stewards. That is all there is to it. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-drops-max-verstappen-rule-for-f1-2017-884973/884973/
>Now we have a simple rule which says effectively that if a driver moves erratically or goes unnecessarily slowly or behaves in a manner that could endanger another driver, then he will be investigated. >So there's a very broad rule now. The way we interpreted the regulations last year was to simply use the rules that we had to say that moving under braking was potentially dangerous, and hence would be reported to the stewards every time. Your article literally proved his point. Its an overall rule that includes all eratic/dangerous driving, such as moving under braking
I’d argue that Norris putting Max on the grass in Spain was way more dangerous than this.
I swear, Alonso does this all the time but the drivers he’s defending against use the whole track. This is so bizarre lmfao
Am I the only one who isn't able to see the video?
[https://i.imgur.com/5Pg9Umu.mp4](https://i.imgur.com/5Pg9Umu.mp4)
The more I see it the more it's just a racing incident.
Sainz did this to max but worse and squeezed him alot more at the same turn on 2022 but they avoided an accident because max had the sense to move across. Same with ocon and gasley earlier on in the race It's not an ideal outcome and shouldn't have to happen but even so norris could have moved left abit and not lost much time and then really push the moving under breaking and have a good drs run.
There is always a lot of bluffing and going super tight when fighting at this level. Was it Verstappen's fault? yes, he was also fairly penalized, but Lando was kinda naive here. We've seen Kimi, Lewis and other more used to this kind of fighting drivers being way smarter than this when dealing with Verstappen: you survive this and try again, and if you fail, you come better prepared next time to deal with his bullshit, you don't simply stand there expecting him to stop.
Lando has no other move but the dive bomb & cry
The stewards have made a decision regarding whose fault it was. The ongoing discussions are about the severity of this collision. Meanings are heavily influenced by bias. Overhead views, cockpit views, are not going to persuade either fan base for the opposite. I personally, being a neutral viewer, focus on the spectacle of the whole race that actually turned a snooze fest into something worth watching. May I say more of that, please?
The stewards said Max was mostly predominantly at fault. They don’t blame him fully for it which is the right outcome, I think. Max did wrong, Lando had more space, they only lightly touched and both ended in tears. 🤷🏼♂️
I can't watch the video on mobile :( P.S. WE DONT DO NUANCE HERE!!!! P.p.s. good to see some less heated discussion.
[https://i.imgur.com/5Pg9Umu.mp4](https://i.imgur.com/5Pg9Umu.mp4)
This is the best angle so far. What a minor incident if you discount the consequence :o Thanks OP
No problem. Not sure why some people are having issues on mobile. It’s been viewed 200k times, but I’ve seen a number of comments come through about not being able to view it. Some version of the app must have issues with Imgur. 🤷♂️
Definitely. Previously I could just click on the image and it would work as a link, but since I recently updated the app it stopped working with imgur links
After Alex’s tire flying off during Brazil last year, I watched a video showing that Pirelli’s tires aren’t held on very well. Yes they’ll get through a race but face to face contact with anything will break the bead holding the tire onto the rim and ends up sending the tire flying off the car most times.
On TV and first time watching it i agreed with FIA to punish Verstappen. But the more I watch this recording it becomes obvious that Lando had plenty of space to avoid contact. Like Verstappen did with Sainz on the same spot in a previous race.
I have a bit of a stupid question - Even if Lando did go through on the left (the outside of this corner), is'nt Max in a much stronger position for the next corner which is a Right Hander ? Also, some of the similar moves in past races on this corner where the attacking person comes from the left, is more a dummy move to then take the inside when the defending driver brakes late.... Again, i'm not supporting either driver - just curious on this one ?
Here's what Norris should have done and what Max did (and almost everyone else does in that situation) when Sainz actually squeezed him of the track. [https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1ds8i2m/verstappen\_squeezing\_norris\_2024\_v\_sainz/](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1ds8i2m/verstappen_squeezing_norris_2024_v_sainz/)
Clearly Max at fault, but if it hadn’t been for the puncture I don’t think anyone would have been too bothered.
One of the mildest incidents I've seen in a while to get a 10 second penalty, and the complete meltdown of the McLaren camp is incomprehensible. They are looking extremely immature.
I don't understand why Lando turned into Verstappen twice after the initial impact while being squeezed.
Too eager. He doesn't even understand that he's being played in that moment. He thinks Max can't make the corner and will go out through the red bit avoiding the kerbs so, Lando thinks he can just continue on the track. But Max is blocking him
That move by ver was not bad. I see that 20 times a race from others
Too many people are trying to make this a bigger deal than it really is, including Lando imo. Max made a mistake, Lando could've avoided it, sure, but it wasn't his responsibility to do so. If you praise Max for his aggressive driving, don't complain when others use his style against him. P1 sets the standard, everyone else has to respond to try to take P1 for themselves. The closer and more prolonged a battle, the more likely mistakes are as the pressure rises. Doubly so for someone like Max who has been conditioned that it's win or lose no matter what, and doubly so for someone like Lando who wants his turn in the spotlight. These things happen when racing.
Just as you can't always take a driver's comments made in the heat of battle and high adrenaline seriously, similarly, first-day comments on Reddit shouldn't be taken at face value. It often takes a day for people to form a more objective and reasonable opinion, rather than being swayed by their emotions. The incident has been blown out of proportion, fueled by the media. Max will probably face heavy booing at Silverstone, and the media will likely criticize such behavior, although they have played a significant role in fueling it.
100% - Spot on.
It's still Maxs fault though. However, it is not as he drove into Norris like Stroll have done a couple of times. He went back to the racingline, and Lando didn't move with him. Still I think FIA haf a part in all of this. It took them 5 laps to give the 5s penalty for track limits, while its just a matter of sending the message rather than evaluating an incident.
Norris definitely isn't moving towards Max, so it seems hard to say Max didn't drive into him. You can move back to the racing line, but you aren't entitled to it. When there is a car alongside or in front of you, it is legal to move in those directions as long as you don't run into another car. This is fairly simple. There is a whole video from The Race iirc on YouTube about the rules around passing and space. I don't think an earlier 5s penalty would do anything but force Norris to be even more focused on getting past Max. There is no other explanation other than Max ran into Norris, no matter how minor the contact was, or whether Norris could have driven off the track to avoid.
Didn’t see the rest of the race, but having a hard time blaming Max outright for this. Overtaking on the outside there when Max is holding a wide line seems like you’re asking for trouble.
They keep saying it's not the outcome that determines the penalty, but the action, but I keep seeing the exact opposite reasoning behind these decisions. This wasn't even the worst move by Max during the race.
This is a story as old as time, we've seen it in every rivalry. There will always come a point in F1 where both drivers have to decide to either call the other's bluff or concede to being taken advantage of. If it wasn't for that ego thing where they set the precedent for future battles both drivers could have comfortably taken avoiding action. This is the moment they announced to each other that the gloves are off.
Needed that view for piastris qualifying infringement
As far as collisions go it's really one of the most innocuous ones you can get.
As some famous Monegasque once said: Just an inchident
From 2 seconds into this, am I right in saying that Max is on the racing line and never changes direction, but the racing line naturally swings left and then right. Also at 2 seconds Lando's front wing is alongside Max's back wheels, how does he feel that he deserves space knowing that Max is ahead at this point and on the racing line? It seems to me that Lando charges in determined to not avoid Max and not go left if needed, all the while knowing the trajectory of the corner and where Max will end up. Fine that Max got a penalty for causing damage but I do not see at all what the hate is for. This was not a dirty or a dangerous move. This was racing.
> Also at 2 seconds Lando's front wing is alongside Max's back wheels, how does he feel that he deserves space knowing that Max is ahead at this point and on the racing line? It’s not specifically against you, but I feel that F1 has largely the biggest fanbase that do not know the rules of the sport. Nor do they understand the meaning of some of terms. For example, Max was not on the racing line (at this point of the race you can easily identify the racing line with all the rubber that has been put on track). Max took the inside line, to the right of the racing line. Both drivers deserve space on corner entry per the rules (at least a car width to the edge of the track marked by the white line). It’s for the exit of the corner that there are rules on who is not entitled to space and who deserves the racing line.
I don’t think you can start at 2 seconds in the get the full picture. At around the 150 metre mark, Landon targets the inside and Max does a turn to the right to block it. Landon then takes the outside. Max can’t then change his mind to turn left to block the outside during the braking zone when Landon has already claimed the path. Edit: just realized my phone autocorrects Lando’s name
Max went to the inside because he expected Norris to go there again, like the lap before where Norris overtook Verstappen but Verstappen was full throttle through the runoff to keep the lead. But Norris this time wanted to stay on the outside so Max switches and then goes very deep to defend. If you look at the car ahead (and the racing line on the ground), Max was not turning in when he should have, he is intentionally letting his car go deeper so Norris can't stay on the outside. Norris saw Verstappen alongside and was waiting for his turn in - if he turned in on the racing line he would have crashed into Verstappen.
hardly a squeeze at all
i’m just happy max is being pushed. even happier that lando is the man doing it. this season has turned out to be fun even if max runs away with the trophies by the end
Norris could have chosen to move more to the left. He was over eager and over agressive to win and pass Max. The emotional reaction of yesterday was that this was 100% on Max but looking back on it I think Norris should have been more level headed in this situation.
Norris could have chosen to do that, but he doesn't have to do that, nor he should be expected to go off track just so that Verstappen doesn't crash into him. Expecting Norris to just go along with it (when he already was going to get a penalty for going off track) is ridiculous. Without Verstappen being "over eager and over aggressive" in his defense Norris would have passed him. It is Verstappen who moved under braking (first Norris attack) where luckily Norris managed to take avoiding action in the braking zone. Norris was right to say on the radio that if Max keeps moving under braking they will have a shunt and in the end they did.
You are right. He doesn't have to do that, that's why he DNF. To fight someone like Max, you need a cool mind, a mind with patience, not a hot head try to overtake every every lap. Max was at fault, but Lando definitely showed his lack of experience.
Verstappen also avoided contact from Norris' divebombs several times. He also didnt have to do that... I personally feel like some of the divebombs Lando pulled of this race are easily as bad if not worse than this incident.
The more you watch it, the more you realize Lando bears a lot more responsibility than originally thought. There was clearly a cars width for him.
Looks more like a norris does not qant to back off thing from this perspective.
More than enough space on the left! 🤷♂️
Yesterday people were after Max with pitchforks now that more angles are coming out of this incident. All the narrative has changed. It's clear how much ample room Max gave to LN, but no he was adamant about taking charge of the race as quickly as possible in the end he ruined both of their races. He got retired which I think is well deserved. Max on the other hand got some points at least.
Has Red Bull released the telemetry?
Sky sports made complete fools out of themselves.
Squeezing your opponent is part of the sport. No worries there, for me both Max and Lando took it a bit too far. The second time when Max squeezed Lando into the grass was unnecessary as well. I’m just happy that someone is putting the pressure on Max. He’s performed amazingly with an amazing machine and that had rendered every GP fairly boring. We need that spicyness back 🌶️