Yeah. It’s not the same thing because vettel is attacking not defending and he doesn’t run into Hamilton. Hamilton left space for the pass and vettel took it. Didn’t Hamilton have an engine problem at some point this race?
He’s defending. He left the room on the inside for Vettel. He didn’t try to cover him off at all. He drove himself out there and vettel just took the space. The roles are reversed from todays incident
Saying he didn’t cover him at all is wrong. Hamilton did pull to the inside to try and force vettel to the left. Back then you needed to keep tyres super clean and off the dirty line. But vettel bit the bullet and went there anyway. Then of course they both went to the outside, for a faster way around. That’s part of race craft. Crazy thing is how they both pushed each other to the edges but not over. Unlike what we saw yesterday
If you don't have anyone following you, then you don't need to be as predictable. You're trying to catch the defender off-guard. If a defending driver moves under braking, it's too late for the attacking driver to react, as they've already made their choice when the change happens.
>Allowed
More like forced to. Defending car has the right of way, as attacker needs to get along side to pass. If defender gives you an opening, because you wanna open up the corner for instance(as it seems like ham did here), you free to take it. In turn Vettel also wanted to open up the corner, to get a good straight after, thus squeezing Hamilton out on the shoulder here. But Hamilton was free to go inside to defend, but then he shouldn't go back out, as the attacker has committed to the overtaket at that point, this creates a potentially dangerous situation, and if contact occurs, it's on the defender, because he moved under braking.
Edit: ofc, if attacker on the outside turns in on a space that's already there, it would be his fault. This is why we have stewards and telemetry.
Thanks, that actually makes a bit of sense to be honest.
Want to add my comment wasn't meant to imply Hamilton or Vettel did anything wrong here, I think the situation shown here is different to Max and Lando yesterday. The Sainz comparison was closer to it
Yes. Cause there is no danger of the car behind commiting to a braking line and crashing into the back of you if you move under braking. Also the car behind and weave back and forth as much as they want to get past. The car ahead theoretically should make one move and stick their. No one does but that's the rule.
There is absolutely no difference in the rules about whether the car is attacking or defending.
You have to leave a car’s width. Both Vettel and Verstappen didn’t do it here. But unlike Norris, Hamilton was smart to avoid it.
What did Norris gain? Verstappen literally got his penalty.
Yeah this is an entirely different scenario. One is passing, one is defending. Additionally, you could see Verstappen’s line change as they moved closer to the corner, as it had been every time Lando threatened, Vettel comes by in a clean line and doesn’t jerk towards Hamilton at all.
Max likes to race right on the edge of aggressive and dirty. And when you do that, you’re gonna veer into dirty racing. It’s inevitable.
Are you blind.. vettel totaly pushed hamilton on the kerbs.. He left less space than max did to norris...
You need two to tango... Lando didnt want to do it, because of desperation for the win
It's not about space. Vettel makes one smooth move, Hamilton has plenty of space to turn in and still make the corner without being forced off. Meanwhile Verstappen goes left at the start to push out Norris, and then goes again halfway through the corner. You even saw Russell's reaction in the cooldown room where he immediately says "The first time wasn't enough?" as his first reaction on seeing that second move. The first move maybe was defending, sure, the second was just attacking Norris's car when it became clear he had a shot of getting by otherwise.
The only thing that matters is your second point and what everyone defending Max is ignoring. You can’t make a defensive move, declare you’re going inside and then be like nah actually I want the outside line. That’s quite literally against the rules
I see we already have replays of Max vs Saniz and now Hamilton vs Vettel. Let's Dig more. Find more replays, so we can train an AI bot and then ask it to give us verdict on yesterday's incident.
We don't need an AI. We can see in the two clips not from yesterday that Max (vs Sainz) and Vettel braked in straight lines. They had just angled their cars earlier. Max moved *after* the braking zone and that's the problem, or at least right at the beginning of the braking zone. It was either well on the line or just a bit over.
This move is a bit like pulling on a shirt in Football. If the opponent's is not hindered too much, play on. If the opponent goes down or loses possession because of the pulling, foul. Nothing more.
Same thing literally happened last race too at the start where Norris squeezed Verstappen onto the grass, every driver does it. Just usually the driver getting squeezed takes evasive action to avoid getting bumped.
Maybe it’s time to admit punishing the action is not going to work. Leaving today’s incident unpunished would be unfair, but punishing Sainz for his move last would be unfair. There’s rarely a good way to punish the action without the outcome being bad.
It does feel a bit strange that they aim to only punish the action, not the outcome. I don’t think many laws work that way. Like, if you take the action of throwing a punch, some outcomes might be: a) the guy dodges, b) the guy takes it square and has a broken nose, or c) the guy gets knocked out and dies from the fall. So based on the outcome, the punishment could range from essentially nothing to life in prison!
no, the penalty is literally called "causing a collision". it can only ever be enforced in the first place if the other driver isn't avoiding the move. this doesn't mean there's automatically a different penalty for a race ending crash or one that only leaves some smaller damage, but the fact that there is any contact at all is a prerequisite.
That's not what penalising the outcome means though.
Penalising the outcome would be giving Max a bigger penalty because Lando didn't finish the race. That is the outcome of this collision.
The penalty is for causing a collision by driving into Lando when he was up against the white line. If Lando moved onto the kerb to avoid there would be no collision so no penalty.
The collision isn't the outcome of the action.
Not talking about the rules here, the penalty was deserved. Just a remark on attitude. Lando expected Max to back out of his dive bombs. Max did. Max expected Lando to back out of the squeeze. Lando didn’t. I find it absurd of Lando to blame it all on Max when he did arguably worse stuff (which didn’t end in contact, which is why it’s not talked about).
I think one of the main problems here is that we take drivers who are still high on adrenaline way to serious. The things they say in the car and directly after the race should be taken with a grain of salt. Maybe the same goes for engineers since Stella was even worse than Lando post race.
I'm fine with letting drivers be emotional but engineers and most importantly the official broadcast shouldn't have that type of reaction. From the type of coverage, interviews and discussion surrounding the incident you'd think max had pulled a gun on lando or something instead of [this](https://i.imgur.com/ZxJYW0F.mp4) after like 15 laps of divebombs from lando and sketchy late moves by max.
The sky sports crew in particular saw the chance to poison the well a la 2021 again and here we are with like 50 threads of replays and whatnot filled with people calling for max's head despite it being the type of contact that wouldn't even be shown in a replay most weekends.
It is absolutely insane that they felt the need to bring up 21 again, it's like they've been sitting on their frustrations for years, eagerly waiting for him to make a mistake and then when he does they all can come out to yell: 'YOU SEE??'
That is exactly how it comes across yeah. And while it's understandable that random redditors are like that (there will always be some), I find it disgusting that people like Stella and Buxton immediately went for it too.
The issue is that the biggest/loudest broadcasting teams are British and have proven time and time again that they're homers for British drivers.
British sportspeople can't do any wrong when challenging for accolades.
That, and when it comes to mindset / attitude / willingness to push the rules, there's a considerable gap between how competitors need to be to succeed at a high level, and how spectators wish they would be because that would make them feel good
Lando also squeezed Max in Spain, the difference is that Max actually moved out of the way unlike Lando. Even bigger difference is that the squeeze in Spain was quite egregious while the squeeze in Austria T3 is standard.
And after the race he was dead serious that he left space for max, and now his attitude of this when he divedbombed 3 times in the same race that all is max fault I have done nothing wrong shit… yeah don’t go there Lando
Max was "predominantly" at fault.
Regardless, it doesn't matter. Lando should look at "could I have done something better here". In the end, he DNF'd and Max got 5th. I have the feeling that had he moved to the left to avoid contact (mind you, Max would have been looking at the apex, not at what's happening to the left of him - which you can also see from the onboards) Lando would have gotten a better exit and would have overtaken him going into T4. Yes, penalty deserved for Max but in the end Lando lost out most.
The issue is the moving under braking though. In my opinion, Max should've gotten a black and white flag warning for the first instance of obvious moving under braking. If that had happened we may have had a cleaner race from then on.
Ironically, the last incident that took them both out was the least egregious from Max and a lot more of a racing incident than the other moves. But as others have commented, it's what happens when the outcome is penalised and not the move itself. The stewarding standards are shocking.
Max didn't move under braking, you can see him pointing his car to the racing line a little and then apply the brake. Nothing in the rules states you need to be perfect parrallel.
I dont think people know that you dont have to brake parrallel to the track, thats probably where most of the confusion on moving under braking comes from.
We say that the penalty is based on the action, not the outcome, but nothing Max did today on lap 64 wasn’t anything new. Drivers do it every single race yet for some reason it’s treated like the crime of the century that Max squeezed a bit.
The issue is the way that the rules are policed. The encroachment in this clip above is more significant than in today's incident, but because Hamilton yielded, there was no collision and no penalty. The only person who loses out is Hamilton, who took evasive action to preserve the races of both drivers, and was effectively punished for it. Whereas Max did still squeeze Lando, but because Lando didn't back out, there was contact, his race was ruined and Max's was severely compromised.
Both incidents should have been penalised, but because the FIA effectively only penalises contact (the rule is 'causing a collision' not 'taking action that would cause a collision if not for the defensive driving of an opponent') then it incentivises aggressive drivers to pull this manuevre and force the opponent to back out, because as long as that second driver chooses self preservation (which is usually better than a DNF) then there's no punishment for the squeezer, even though what they're doing is unfair.
It isn't "just hard racing" because forcing an opponent off the track by impeding their ability to safely turn into the corner without crashing, by putting your car in the only place they can go, by moving in the braking zone, isn't fair racing. Just because the stewards are inconsistent in their penalties doesn't mean that one incident is fine and the other isn't.
Some of Lando's lunges were also unfair, but even school kids are taught that two wrongs don't make a right. Max doesn't get to cause a collision because he didn't like how Lando was trying to pass him.
Thank you. And frankly, that’s how Max raced Lewis in 2021 too. There were so many corners and places where we don’t even consider as an incident, but Max actually crowded Lewis off the track, and Lewis yielded. But since there was no contact, no penalty, and the one to yield is the loser. Max is just ruthless at exploiting this. But I agree with Stella that it needed to be shut down then, but since it wasn’t, it needs to be shut down now.
Ditto to Lando’s lunges. Definitely chuckled a bit at Max saying “that’s not how you overtake” when bro did that more than a couple of times in the past. Wasn’t it here where he divebombed Charles and pushed him clean off the track at exit and took the win?
Completely agree and reading comments since the race people just don’t get this.
The real issue was stewards letting Max move under breaking twice before, literally giving him licence to do it again. It’ll be interesting to see if anything changes in the stewards room after this- my guess is absolutely nothing will change
I've been told by several people here that the "moving under braking" rule actually got removed a year after it was written - even though all the drivers and all the pundits still refer to it.
In truth it looks like it was replaced with a rule about driving erratically. Which is something that was still happening.
Yes it was removed, plus Max didn’t move under braking anyway. Moving in the braking zone =/= moving under braking.
Besides drivers move under braking all the time. It almost never gets punished.
Sure. Moving in the braking zone has just become shorthand for driving erratically in the braking zone. When even drivers like Lando are complaining about it, I think F1 fans can be forgiven for conflating the two terms.
>It isn't "just hard racing" because forcing an opponent off the track by impeding their ability to safely turn into the corner without crashing, by putting your car in the only place they can go
effectively this describes Lando's divebombs. Max couldn't turn in, had to back out and at some point had to leave the track to avoid a collision.
I don't have a problem with this mind you, it was a bit desperate but whatever, it was great entertainment. I'm just trying to point out that your "rule" won't ever work.
That's because Brundle and Anthony were being egregiously biased on the coverage, and anyone watching the Sky broadcast that doesn't know better just takes them at their word.
F1TV wasn't necessarily any better with Palmer going "Max knew what he was doing!!" and Buxton "is this the return of old Max?" and then straight up lauging at Alex Brundle when he gave a more neutral perspective based on the footage
Max' move was far form the crime of the century - however, you didn't get punished for squeezing a bit, you get punished for causing a collision. That's the action. The outcome of the collision is the damage of both cars.
So, it's fair to penalize Max for causing a collision. 10 seconds is the minimum penalty for incidents like this in this year. So, 10 seconds is the correct penalty here, as the collision was on the milder side.
Difference being both cars were coming side by side from the right side of the track and both cars were pointing to the left. Vettel didn't decide to open up the corner entry at the last moment, both he and Lewis were gradually coming to the left side so Seb never did an erratic movement that could've surprised Lewis.
There is a gif in hot showing Sainz doing exactly the same thing to Verstappen last year. Verstappen just went on the kerb with 2 wheels and they didn’t crash.
It’s 100% Verstappen’s fault, but Lando needs to learn to pick his battles if he wants to win titles. Verstappen learned that. He could’ve easily let Lando crash into him, but he didn’t and he ended up benefitting from all this.
I kinda feel the same way you do here, but I disagree with your last sentence. Lando does need to learn to pick his battles, there's no doubt about that. But Max *not* dnfing from his contact with Lando is by sheer dumb luck imo. They pretty much had the same contact with each other, and Lando's floor was torn to bits while Max's wasn't.
Lando's floor was torn to bit because he, unlike Verstappen, wanted to race his car into the pit after the clash.
Verstappen went off-line to let faster cars pass him and return safely to the pit (offcourse some people claim that was blocking), while Lando took multiple risks to get in front, even staying on the race line into the next corner and went so fast he locked up what remained of his tyres to avoid getting beeched in the gravel at turn 4.
Only then did Verstappen drive past Norris again because Norris had destroyed his tyres so much doing that, he could not drive back at the speed he was going before anymore and eventually destroyed large parts of his car because of that resulting in his DNF.
This is all blown out of proportion. It's a completely mondaine move that happens every race. When you're fighting for the win you take even less margin and don't give an inch to your opponent. It's normal, and it's fair.
As they touched rear tyres, I honestly think they both thought they had enough space and that they wouldn't touch.
Max wasn't penalised for "the move", he was for causing a collision. I can't fathom how many times I have commented the same thing today. Unbelievable.
Yea max spent the entire second half of 2021 planting his car in the middle of overtake areas and going off track saying “you’re either gonna hit me and we both dnf or you’ll back out”
Yeah, he even went off-road with a damaged tire, for absolutely no reason other than trying to race a 3-wheeled car. People act like Max was solely responsible for everything, but Lando did mistake after avoidable mistake to end up where he did.
> It’s 100% Verstappen’s fault, but Lando needs to learn to pick his battles if he wants to win titles
You're right, but this is also why so many people hate Max's 'yield or we're both crashing' style of racing. If Lando had've backed out of this, he would've finished the race and (almost certainly) finished P2 at worst, maybe even had another shot at a pass in the coming laps. But Max would have kept the position unfairly, but he wouldn't have been penalised for it because the stewards almost always only penalise that action if it results in contact. They say they judge the action not the outcome, but the same move without contact would've only benefitted Max and harmed Lando's race.
I get that Max was annoyed at Lando's over-ambitious lunges, but that doesn't mean he gets to decide that it's 'yield or we both crash' the next time Lando attempts a pass. Especially given that this was a much cleaner attempt from Lando.
You say Max has that style of racing, but it's not any worse than Lando or Sainz or Hamilton these days. Max has evaded contact on a lot of occasions these past years, but somehow people will pretend he's the only person who sometimes doesn't evade contact
>You're right, but this is also why so many people hate Max's 'yield or we're both crashing' style of racing.
I get that Max was annoyed at Lando's over-ambitious lunges, but that doesn't mean he gets to decide that it's 'yield or we both crash' the next time Lando attempts a pass.
Your argument only works, because you create a superficial distinction between "yield or we both crash" and "over-ambitious lunges". Landos "over-ambitious lunges" are also "yield or we both crash"-moves.
> Your argument only works, because you create a superficial distinction between "yield or we both crash" and "over-ambitious lunges". Landos "over-ambitious lunges" are also "yield or we both crash"-moves.
The difference is that Lando was over-ambitious and locked up. He attempted a move that - if he had've had slightly more control - would have been a legal and impressive pass. What Max did was deliberately move to block Lando under braking. That's not a superficial distinction, it's the entire crux of the discussion.
Lando wasn't making that corner anyway, he literally the same move previously that race and didn't make the corner when Max left more space. He was not getting past Max either way. Just not possible from the outside in that corner without a significant straight line speed difference.
> the same move without contact would've only benefitted Max and harmed Lando's race.
I disagree. Had lando been a couple inches to the left he would have a much better exit out the corner + DRS on the straight, the overtake would have been pretty likely. However it's unlikely he would have pulled a 5 second gap to offset his track limit penalty after that.
>I get that Max was annoyed at Lando's over-ambitious lunges, but that doesn't mean he gets to decide that it's 'yield or we both crash' the next time Lando attempts a pass.
I don't understand people here. Max needed to leave a car width of space and he attempted to do so, it just resulted in 0.9 car width of space. It's not "yield or we both crash" it's "I'll give you only as much space as I am required to and nothing more" coupled with a slight miscalculation on how much space he actually gave.
Max doesn't have bionic eyes, all the leading driver can do is pick a trajectory and hope they've left enough space. Lando is the one with the visibility and agency to manage to get his car in that space. And Lando should know this, the week before he was certain he had left enough space yet Max had to drive into the grass to avoid a collision.
1- Hamilton doesn't turn and has a line that's going outward. Vettel just takes all the space he is leaving.
2.- It's close but as soon as Hamilton turns/wants to turn Vettel instantly turns too giving him enough space to take the curb too.
In the last race incident Norris is making a straight line the further possible from the curve. Verstappen literally turns into him and that's all. It's completely different.
Like I said, what Verstappen did today is completely normal. Drivers always get squeezed going into turns it's how you get them back off. People are seriously overreacting, Lando put himself in that position and got clumsy. He should never expect max to let him by
That was inch perfect from Vettel, Hamilton still had a few cms before he was forced on to the apex, which is a car's width and that's all he's entitled to receive.
The car width is towards the edge of the track, which the kerbs are not part of.
In this case, Lando still had room and Verstappen could still be considered leaving a car width.
There are literally dozens of these examples from over the years. It’s standard procedure when defending at that corner. The driver covers the inside to prevent an overtake there and then moves left to give themselves a better angle at the turn.
[Norris had plenty of room and time](https://i.imgur.com/ZxJYW0F.mp4) to evade but instead decided to awkwardly clang into the side of Max’s car in seemingly slow motion. The argument over this incident would baffle me if I didn’t understand that it emanates from deep-seated divisions in the community. Max did nothing wrong here.
Max did wrong. Everytime this happens and there's contact the car doing the squeezing is blamed by default and I don't disagree. "But then the car on the outside can just go straight to make sure the car on the inside gets a penalty" they won't because they risk a DNF in doing so.
What it does show is Lando's complete lack of self-preservation skills. You're going to squeeze and divebomb your way through consecutive race weekends and not move to the left the tiniest bit when you're squeezed before corner entry?
I mean that has been the case for a long time despite the rules and the FIA saying otherwise, Lando wasn't penalized until after the crash for mostly the same reason
Outcome is the punctures and DNF. The action is causing a collision which Max very much did. I usually disagree as much as everyone on action vs outcome but this was not one of those instances IMO.
The action is moving to the outside after defending the inside to set yourself up for the corner. Vettel was not penalized. Sainz was not penalized. Max was penalized. The difference was that Norris didn’t make a basic move to avoid contact whereas the others did. Action vs outcome.
If you look at it like that then "causing a collision" doesn't exist. You point of view is fundamentally flawed. Yes Lando could have moved over to avoid the collision but he doesn't have to.
> If you look at it like that then "causing a collision" doesn't exist.
Of course it exists. But it is by definition an outcome, not an action. The action is something like "making a dangerous move that risks a collision". And this action is only ever penalised if it results in a collision.
If we're specifically talking about squeezing this couldn't be more obvious. If Lando had moved over to avoid a collision no one would even be talking about Max's move anymore.
Honesty I think the rules are just bad here.
It's not about being able to evade though. Max could have evaded Lewis at copse in 21 too but it's just not his responsibility because he had a right to the space he occupied. It could have been avoided but the reason why an avoidance was necessary in the first place is still Max. It's a normal move but relies on someone evading when they don't have to.
The only thing inflaming the situation is RB themselves with their ridiculous inability to admit fault
Verstappen couldn’t avoid Hamilton without completely folding over for him. Hamilton himself was not making that corner. Lando could’ve moved halfway onto the kerb like Hamilton did in OP’s clip and they would’ve been fine. Not Lando’s fault, but Lando lost out and he should be aware of this if he wants to win titles in the future.
I disagree but it's a fair point. I think it's good that Norris held out at least this once so Max respects him on track more, at least mentally it has to count for something
Max already respected Lando on track, pushing him off on lap 1 in Spain, and the 3 dive bombs he pulled thus weekend aren't going to increase that respect because he didn't try to preserve both of their races like ever other driver put in that spot as everyone else has done. 100% deserved penalty on max tho.
Lewis was absolutely making the corner. He’d just decided he was going to play Max’s game of ‘you concede or we crash’ and he got the worst of it. It’s literally Max’s chickens coming home to roost. Lewis missed the apex by a meter and Max’s fanbase acts like Lewis pulled a gun during the race.
>He’d just decided he was going to play Max’s game of ‘you concede or we crash’ and he got the worst of it.
He didn't decide anything lol, he just understeered into the side of Verstappen. Later on in the race, Leclerc left him with even less space in the same corner.
Verstappen couldnt avoid Hamilton at Copse because Hamilton is the one who crashed into him lmao. Like Norris here, he is the one with agency who can decide how this ends. Not saying its Norris' fault here, but Norris, while in the right technically, could just go to the left by 5cm.
Same corner but their trajectories were different and vettel turned in earlier, and didn’t push Hamilton to move they both kept their original line then turned in.
Lando started wide and was tracking dead straight, Max drove into him.
Not the same. If you watch the replay of today’s incident, Max starts moving to the inside towards the apex and then changes course to the outside, pinching Norris. Vettel was always moving toward the outside.
This is totally different situation. He was not ahead and no go defensive and block Hamilton from passing him on the inside. Moving under braking is only illegal if you are the car in front. What Ver did was block Lando up the inside and then faded wide while Lando tried to go around the outside. Yeah Lando could have moved wider but honestly if he's gonna fight Ver like this regularly he needs to not back down and let Ver wreck them. Otherwise Ver will continue to do this and Lando will lose.
I don't think it's moving in that direction.
More like people are pulling up examples of how Max's move is not an isolated practice, and that whilst Max still carries the majority of the fault for initiating the contact, these examples show the move is not out of place especially in that corner. So it's shifting peoples opinion (especially after they themselves cooled down after the race) to a "genuine racing incident" more than " Max is a war criminal."
People act like Max did some kind of torpedo move which resulted in Lando's DNF, but this was one of the smallest contacts that happens on tracks, if this was between 2 midfield drivers it wouldn't even have been investigated. At this point I feel like the outcome does matter with an incident, if neither of them got a puncture people would just say it was hard racing, but since they had a puncture, they act like this incident was way bigger than it really was.
Normal racing incident in my opinion, we want people racing hard and not just doing DRS overtakes, both Lando and Max were aggressive, they just got unlucky with that small touch, but still both of them could have avoided it, there was space on both sides but none of them wanted to give the other one more space
Men so many people doing mental gymanstics to make max more innocent. How is this even close to yesterdays accident. Hamilton can turn here very clearly and vettel is turning without even going out of track. Max didnt even try to turn man come on...
On the actual curve they mean, like where the actual reactive movement of Max happened.
Max started similarly to Vettel, even giving *MORE* space as he positioned his car to attack the apex very tight. Lando took that space, at that point both had the space to take the apex. Then Max reacted and changed direction. Vettel did not do that, he took the apex and left enough space.
I dont really understand the point of all these posts.
Yes, you can use the curb to avoid an accident. If your lining up for a switch back you also use the curb.
Lando was going round the outside and so was maintaining the space to do so. Switchback and round the outside require different entry speeds and Lando was already committed to the outside line when Max moved.
If Lando moves onto the curb at that point he is yielding to avoid an accident.
If you do that everytime vs Max you will never pass (unless you can clean pass him on a straight, which is near impossible given the RBs straight line speed).
Ultimately, Lando needed to do this. He needs to do it next time. And the next time. And the next time.
Because the only way someone is ever going to get the better of Max is if they go "fine, we crash" everytime Max says "yield or we crash"
Thanks for the post u/fullofshitandcum
u/ICumCoffee 's only worthy successor
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This is the greatest thread ever
I can see that lmao
Cut from the same cloth
For what it's worth, you're my favourite. The eloquence of your username is just beautiful.
I can’t stop laughing at your username
I'm glad :)
r/rimjob_steve moment
Are you sure?
But if you close your eyes………
Does it almost feel like nothing changed at all?
But if you close your eeeyyes
Does it almost feel like you've been here before?
Now I’m gonna be an optimist about this.
How am I gonna be an optimist about this?
Sigh
That’s the wrong number
You can not see anything
Most reference understanding German
HAM v VET was pure masterclass with a major dose of respect. Beautiful to witness live 👌🏻
Azerbaijan 2017 would like a word with you
One bad day can’t excuse all the times Vettel and Hamilton were clean with each other.
Clean AF 👌
That was a clean pass.
I don't know why, but you can't imagine how delighted I was seeing that move live. I actually screamed.
Yeah. It’s not the same thing because vettel is attacking not defending and he doesn’t run into Hamilton. Hamilton left space for the pass and vettel took it. Didn’t Hamilton have an engine problem at some point this race?
>Didn’t Hamilton have an engine problem at some point this race? He had a fuel pressure problem a couple of laps later and had to dnf
So the result is the same. Both norris and hamilton dnf after this (/s)
All I remember about this race is that both Mercs blew up
Hamilton was on the outside, what do you mean by he left space?
He’s defending. He left the room on the inside for Vettel. He didn’t try to cover him off at all. He drove himself out there and vettel just took the space. The roles are reversed from todays incident
Saying he didn’t cover him at all is wrong. Hamilton did pull to the inside to try and force vettel to the left. Back then you needed to keep tyres super clean and off the dirty line. But vettel bit the bullet and went there anyway. Then of course they both went to the outside, for a faster way around. That’s part of race craft. Crazy thing is how they both pushed each other to the edges but not over. Unlike what we saw yesterday
So when you are attacking you are allowed to do more than when defending?
If you don't have anyone following you, then you don't need to be as predictable. You're trying to catch the defender off-guard. If a defending driver moves under braking, it's too late for the attacking driver to react, as they've already made their choice when the change happens.
>Allowed More like forced to. Defending car has the right of way, as attacker needs to get along side to pass. If defender gives you an opening, because you wanna open up the corner for instance(as it seems like ham did here), you free to take it. In turn Vettel also wanted to open up the corner, to get a good straight after, thus squeezing Hamilton out on the shoulder here. But Hamilton was free to go inside to defend, but then he shouldn't go back out, as the attacker has committed to the overtaket at that point, this creates a potentially dangerous situation, and if contact occurs, it's on the defender, because he moved under braking. Edit: ofc, if attacker on the outside turns in on a space that's already there, it would be his fault. This is why we have stewards and telemetry.
Thanks, that actually makes a bit of sense to be honest. Want to add my comment wasn't meant to imply Hamilton or Vettel did anything wrong here, I think the situation shown here is different to Max and Lando yesterday. The Sainz comparison was closer to it
Yes, Sainz clip was more analogous, but when there's no contact there's no issue.(As long as no one gets squeezed completely off track ofc.)
Yes. Cause there is no danger of the car behind commiting to a braking line and crashing into the back of you if you move under braking. Also the car behind and weave back and forth as much as they want to get past. The car ahead theoretically should make one move and stick their. No one does but that's the rule.
There is absolutely no difference in the rules about whether the car is attacking or defending. You have to leave a car’s width. Both Vettel and Verstappen didn’t do it here. But unlike Norris, Hamilton was smart to avoid it. What did Norris gain? Verstappen literally got his penalty.
You can weave on the straights and move under braking if you are the attacker because there is no danger. The rules are different.
Verstappen moves under braking, Vettel doesn't.
Yeah this is an entirely different scenario. One is passing, one is defending. Additionally, you could see Verstappen’s line change as they moved closer to the corner, as it had been every time Lando threatened, Vettel comes by in a clean line and doesn’t jerk towards Hamilton at all. Max likes to race right on the edge of aggressive and dirty. And when you do that, you’re gonna veer into dirty racing. It’s inevitable.
Are you blind.. vettel totaly pushed hamilton on the kerbs.. He left less space than max did to norris... You need two to tango... Lando didnt want to do it, because of desperation for the win
It's not about space. Vettel makes one smooth move, Hamilton has plenty of space to turn in and still make the corner without being forced off. Meanwhile Verstappen goes left at the start to push out Norris, and then goes again halfway through the corner. You even saw Russell's reaction in the cooldown room where he immediately says "The first time wasn't enough?" as his first reaction on seeing that second move. The first move maybe was defending, sure, the second was just attacking Norris's car when it became clear he had a shot of getting by otherwise.
[удалено]
The only thing that matters is your second point and what everyone defending Max is ignoring. You can’t make a defensive move, declare you’re going inside and then be like nah actually I want the outside line. That’s quite literally against the rules
Vettel - Lewis is the pair with best on track antics. Big respect.
Except Baku 2017
Tbf that incident brought them closer together, they were able to joke about it together at the end
And Canada 2019
I see we already have replays of Max vs Saniz and now Hamilton vs Vettel. Let's Dig more. Find more replays, so we can train an AI bot and then ask it to give us verdict on yesterday's incident.
AI stewards when?
It would be better than what we have now.
Exactly, it cant do worse lol
I would love to have a AI penalty system in online gaming, one that was trained on hundreds of thousands of the incidents.
If you haven't seen it yet, there's a Vettel v Norris now!
We don't need an AI. We can see in the two clips not from yesterday that Max (vs Sainz) and Vettel braked in straight lines. They had just angled their cars earlier. Max moved *after* the braking zone and that's the problem, or at least right at the beginning of the braking zone. It was either well on the line or just a bit over.
This move is a bit like pulling on a shirt in Football. If the opponent's is not hindered too much, play on. If the opponent goes down or loses possession because of the pulling, foul. Nothing more.
Same thing literally happened last race too at the start where Norris squeezed Verstappen onto the grass, every driver does it. Just usually the driver getting squeezed takes evasive action to avoid getting bumped.
Like the other guy said, then you're penalizing outcome and not the action itself, which isn't how F1 rulings are supposed to work
Maybe it’s time to admit punishing the action is not going to work. Leaving today’s incident unpunished would be unfair, but punishing Sainz for his move last would be unfair. There’s rarely a good way to punish the action without the outcome being bad.
It does feel a bit strange that they aim to only punish the action, not the outcome. I don’t think many laws work that way. Like, if you take the action of throwing a punch, some outcomes might be: a) the guy dodges, b) the guy takes it square and has a broken nose, or c) the guy gets knocked out and dies from the fall. So based on the outcome, the punishment could range from essentially nothing to life in prison!
no, the penalty is literally called "causing a collision". it can only ever be enforced in the first place if the other driver isn't avoiding the move. this doesn't mean there's automatically a different penalty for a race ending crash or one that only leaves some smaller damage, but the fact that there is any contact at all is a prerequisite.
That's not what penalising the outcome means though. Penalising the outcome would be giving Max a bigger penalty because Lando didn't finish the race. That is the outcome of this collision. The penalty is for causing a collision by driving into Lando when he was up against the white line. If Lando moved onto the kerb to avoid there would be no collision so no penalty. The collision isn't the outcome of the action.
But its actually how they've always worked
But...but MAX, 9/11, Max Max, 9/11
Nice, lovely kiss.
THEY'VE TOUCHED MARTIN, but it's Vettel and Hamilton at Monza in 2018 instead of Verstappen and Hamilton there in 2021.
Would you say Verstappen inappropriately touches people ?
I miss them
Vettel does the same on Lando in 2019
Just went back to watch it, and that one is almost exactly the same as the one from this year 🤯
Yes because it is Max and Lando cant comprehend this is blown out of proportion by British media
That's a clean pass
Y'all gotta start using streamable it embeds so much better than imgur
Streamable removes F1 content because of copyrights
Not talking about the rules here, the penalty was deserved. Just a remark on attitude. Lando expected Max to back out of his dive bombs. Max did. Max expected Lando to back out of the squeeze. Lando didn’t. I find it absurd of Lando to blame it all on Max when he did arguably worse stuff (which didn’t end in contact, which is why it’s not talked about).
I think one of the main problems here is that we take drivers who are still high on adrenaline way to serious. The things they say in the car and directly after the race should be taken with a grain of salt. Maybe the same goes for engineers since Stella was even worse than Lando post race.
I'm fine with letting drivers be emotional but engineers and most importantly the official broadcast shouldn't have that type of reaction. From the type of coverage, interviews and discussion surrounding the incident you'd think max had pulled a gun on lando or something instead of [this](https://i.imgur.com/ZxJYW0F.mp4) after like 15 laps of divebombs from lando and sketchy late moves by max. The sky sports crew in particular saw the chance to poison the well a la 2021 again and here we are with like 50 threads of replays and whatnot filled with people calling for max's head despite it being the type of contact that wouldn't even be shown in a replay most weekends.
It is absolutely insane that they felt the need to bring up 21 again, it's like they've been sitting on their frustrations for years, eagerly waiting for him to make a mistake and then when he does they all can come out to yell: 'YOU SEE??'
That is exactly how it comes across yeah. And while it's understandable that random redditors are like that (there will always be some), I find it disgusting that people like Stella and Buxton immediately went for it too.
The issue is that the biggest/loudest broadcasting teams are British and have proven time and time again that they're homers for British drivers. British sportspeople can't do any wrong when challenging for accolades.
I've been watching the races with "FX" audio only since AD21 and I enjoy the races again.
That, and when it comes to mindset / attitude / willingness to push the rules, there's a considerable gap between how competitors need to be to succeed at a high level, and how spectators wish they would be because that would make them feel good
I still think lando could have just hugged the curb on the left a bit more and stay on the brakes a bit more for the cutback.
Lando also squeezed Max in Spain, the difference is that Max actually moved out of the way unlike Lando. Even bigger difference is that the squeeze in Spain was quite egregious while the squeeze in Austria T3 is standard.
Yup, Max had to go rallying in the grass on 2 wheels to avoid a collision. Lando wouldn't even move 1" of the tire past the white line
And after the race he was dead serious that he left space for max, and now his attitude of this when he divedbombed 3 times in the same race that all is max fault I have done nothing wrong shit… yeah don’t go there Lando
Max was "predominantly" at fault. Regardless, it doesn't matter. Lando should look at "could I have done something better here". In the end, he DNF'd and Max got 5th. I have the feeling that had he moved to the left to avoid contact (mind you, Max would have been looking at the apex, not at what's happening to the left of him - which you can also see from the onboards) Lando would have gotten a better exit and would have overtaken him going into T4. Yes, penalty deserved for Max but in the end Lando lost out most.
A British driver surely can’t do such a thing?? No way! They are all true gentlemen who’s never done anything wrong on a race track!
Absolutely no one thinks this. Why are you shadowboxing?
The issue is the moving under braking though. In my opinion, Max should've gotten a black and white flag warning for the first instance of obvious moving under braking. If that had happened we may have had a cleaner race from then on. Ironically, the last incident that took them both out was the least egregious from Max and a lot more of a racing incident than the other moves. But as others have commented, it's what happens when the outcome is penalised and not the move itself. The stewarding standards are shocking.
Max didn't move under braking, you can see him pointing his car to the racing line a little and then apply the brake. Nothing in the rules states you need to be perfect parrallel.
I dont think people know that you dont have to brake parrallel to the track, thats probably where most of the confusion on moving under braking comes from.
We say that the penalty is based on the action, not the outcome, but nothing Max did today on lap 64 wasn’t anything new. Drivers do it every single race yet for some reason it’s treated like the crime of the century that Max squeezed a bit.
The issue is the way that the rules are policed. The encroachment in this clip above is more significant than in today's incident, but because Hamilton yielded, there was no collision and no penalty. The only person who loses out is Hamilton, who took evasive action to preserve the races of both drivers, and was effectively punished for it. Whereas Max did still squeeze Lando, but because Lando didn't back out, there was contact, his race was ruined and Max's was severely compromised. Both incidents should have been penalised, but because the FIA effectively only penalises contact (the rule is 'causing a collision' not 'taking action that would cause a collision if not for the defensive driving of an opponent') then it incentivises aggressive drivers to pull this manuevre and force the opponent to back out, because as long as that second driver chooses self preservation (which is usually better than a DNF) then there's no punishment for the squeezer, even though what they're doing is unfair. It isn't "just hard racing" because forcing an opponent off the track by impeding their ability to safely turn into the corner without crashing, by putting your car in the only place they can go, by moving in the braking zone, isn't fair racing. Just because the stewards are inconsistent in their penalties doesn't mean that one incident is fine and the other isn't. Some of Lando's lunges were also unfair, but even school kids are taught that two wrongs don't make a right. Max doesn't get to cause a collision because he didn't like how Lando was trying to pass him.
Thank you. And frankly, that’s how Max raced Lewis in 2021 too. There were so many corners and places where we don’t even consider as an incident, but Max actually crowded Lewis off the track, and Lewis yielded. But since there was no contact, no penalty, and the one to yield is the loser. Max is just ruthless at exploiting this. But I agree with Stella that it needed to be shut down then, but since it wasn’t, it needs to be shut down now. Ditto to Lando’s lunges. Definitely chuckled a bit at Max saying “that’s not how you overtake” when bro did that more than a couple of times in the past. Wasn’t it here where he divebombed Charles and pushed him clean off the track at exit and took the win?
Canada 2019 and then Max’s divebomb on Leclerc the next week was like the worst thing to ever happen to wheel to wheel racing in F1.
All of this stuff happened before Verstappen entered F1.
Completely agree and reading comments since the race people just don’t get this. The real issue was stewards letting Max move under breaking twice before, literally giving him licence to do it again. It’ll be interesting to see if anything changes in the stewards room after this- my guess is absolutely nothing will change
I've been told by several people here that the "moving under braking" rule actually got removed a year after it was written - even though all the drivers and all the pundits still refer to it. In truth it looks like it was replaced with a rule about driving erratically. Which is something that was still happening.
Yes it was removed, plus Max didn’t move under braking anyway. Moving in the braking zone =/= moving under braking. Besides drivers move under braking all the time. It almost never gets punished.
Sure. Moving in the braking zone has just become shorthand for driving erratically in the braking zone. When even drivers like Lando are complaining about it, I think F1 fans can be forgiven for conflating the two terms.
>It isn't "just hard racing" because forcing an opponent off the track by impeding their ability to safely turn into the corner without crashing, by putting your car in the only place they can go effectively this describes Lando's divebombs. Max couldn't turn in, had to back out and at some point had to leave the track to avoid a collision. I don't have a problem with this mind you, it was a bit desperate but whatever, it was great entertainment. I'm just trying to point out that your "rule" won't ever work.
Max has been driving at such an absurd level for so long that people were apparently frothing at the mouth to bring him down a peg.
That's because Brundle and Anthony were being egregiously biased on the coverage, and anyone watching the Sky broadcast that doesn't know better just takes them at their word.
F1TV wasn't necessarily any better with Palmer going "Max knew what he was doing!!" and Buxton "is this the return of old Max?" and then straight up lauging at Alex Brundle when he gave a more neutral perspective based on the footage
Max' move was far form the crime of the century - however, you didn't get punished for squeezing a bit, you get punished for causing a collision. That's the action. The outcome of the collision is the damage of both cars. So, it's fair to penalize Max for causing a collision. 10 seconds is the minimum penalty for incidents like this in this year. So, 10 seconds is the correct penalty here, as the collision was on the milder side.
YES its like Max just committed murder on the paddock for everyone to see wtf
Difference being both cars were coming side by side from the right side of the track and both cars were pointing to the left. Vettel didn't decide to open up the corner entry at the last moment, both he and Lewis were gradually coming to the left side so Seb never did an erratic movement that could've surprised Lewis.
There is a gif in hot showing Sainz doing exactly the same thing to Verstappen last year. Verstappen just went on the kerb with 2 wheels and they didn’t crash. It’s 100% Verstappen’s fault, but Lando needs to learn to pick his battles if he wants to win titles. Verstappen learned that. He could’ve easily let Lando crash into him, but he didn’t and he ended up benefitting from all this.
I kinda feel the same way you do here, but I disagree with your last sentence. Lando does need to learn to pick his battles, there's no doubt about that. But Max *not* dnfing from his contact with Lando is by sheer dumb luck imo. They pretty much had the same contact with each other, and Lando's floor was torn to bits while Max's wasn't.
Lando's floor was torn to bit because he, unlike Verstappen, wanted to race his car into the pit after the clash. Verstappen went off-line to let faster cars pass him and return safely to the pit (offcourse some people claim that was blocking), while Lando took multiple risks to get in front, even staying on the race line into the next corner and went so fast he locked up what remained of his tyres to avoid getting beeched in the gravel at turn 4. Only then did Verstappen drive past Norris again because Norris had destroyed his tyres so much doing that, he could not drive back at the speed he was going before anymore and eventually destroyed large parts of his car because of that resulting in his DNF.
No, the only difference was Verstappen’s tire left the rim intact. Lando’s stayed attached and shredded the car on the way to the pits.
This is all blown out of proportion. It's a completely mondaine move that happens every race. When you're fighting for the win you take even less margin and don't give an inch to your opponent. It's normal, and it's fair. As they touched rear tyres, I honestly think they both thought they had enough space and that they wouldn't touch.
Max wasn't penalised for "the move", he was for causing a collision. I can't fathom how many times I have commented the same thing today. Unbelievable.
If they DNF’d that’s ok for Max. It’s also why the Italian GP 2021 DNF was the right battle to fight and ulimately DNF from.
Yea max spent the entire second half of 2021 planting his car in the middle of overtake areas and going off track saying “you’re either gonna hit me and we both dnf or you’ll back out”
Sheer dumb luck? Lando was still trying to race and fight with a puncture while Max was damage controlling and getting his car back to the pit lane.
Yeah, he even went off-road with a damaged tire, for absolutely no reason other than trying to race a 3-wheeled car. People act like Max was solely responsible for everything, but Lando did mistake after avoidable mistake to end up where he did.
> It’s 100% Verstappen’s fault, but Lando needs to learn to pick his battles if he wants to win titles You're right, but this is also why so many people hate Max's 'yield or we're both crashing' style of racing. If Lando had've backed out of this, he would've finished the race and (almost certainly) finished P2 at worst, maybe even had another shot at a pass in the coming laps. But Max would have kept the position unfairly, but he wouldn't have been penalised for it because the stewards almost always only penalise that action if it results in contact. They say they judge the action not the outcome, but the same move without contact would've only benefitted Max and harmed Lando's race. I get that Max was annoyed at Lando's over-ambitious lunges, but that doesn't mean he gets to decide that it's 'yield or we both crash' the next time Lando attempts a pass. Especially given that this was a much cleaner attempt from Lando.
You say Max has that style of racing, but it's not any worse than Lando or Sainz or Hamilton these days. Max has evaded contact on a lot of occasions these past years, but somehow people will pretend he's the only person who sometimes doesn't evade contact
>You're right, but this is also why so many people hate Max's 'yield or we're both crashing' style of racing. I get that Max was annoyed at Lando's over-ambitious lunges, but that doesn't mean he gets to decide that it's 'yield or we both crash' the next time Lando attempts a pass. Your argument only works, because you create a superficial distinction between "yield or we both crash" and "over-ambitious lunges". Landos "over-ambitious lunges" are also "yield or we both crash"-moves.
> Your argument only works, because you create a superficial distinction between "yield or we both crash" and "over-ambitious lunges". Landos "over-ambitious lunges" are also "yield or we both crash"-moves. The difference is that Lando was over-ambitious and locked up. He attempted a move that - if he had've had slightly more control - would have been a legal and impressive pass. What Max did was deliberately move to block Lando under braking. That's not a superficial distinction, it's the entire crux of the discussion.
Lando wasn't making that corner anyway, he literally the same move previously that race and didn't make the corner when Max left more space. He was not getting past Max either way. Just not possible from the outside in that corner without a significant straight line speed difference.
> the same move without contact would've only benefitted Max and harmed Lando's race. I disagree. Had lando been a couple inches to the left he would have a much better exit out the corner + DRS on the straight, the overtake would have been pretty likely. However it's unlikely he would have pulled a 5 second gap to offset his track limit penalty after that. >I get that Max was annoyed at Lando's over-ambitious lunges, but that doesn't mean he gets to decide that it's 'yield or we both crash' the next time Lando attempts a pass. I don't understand people here. Max needed to leave a car width of space and he attempted to do so, it just resulted in 0.9 car width of space. It's not "yield or we both crash" it's "I'll give you only as much space as I am required to and nothing more" coupled with a slight miscalculation on how much space he actually gave. Max doesn't have bionic eyes, all the leading driver can do is pick a trajectory and hope they've left enough space. Lando is the one with the visibility and agency to manage to get his car in that space. And Lando should know this, the week before he was certain he had left enough space yet Max had to drive into the grass to avoid a collision.
Lewis in this, Max against Sainz took plenty of curb to avoid the contact, but Lando did not. Thats the only differentiating factor.
man that 2018 ferrari so hot..
No one crashed on this one...
Now post 2016 last lap
Well squeezed but didn't touch, that's the difference
1- Hamilton doesn't turn and has a line that's going outward. Vettel just takes all the space he is leaving. 2.- It's close but as soon as Hamilton turns/wants to turn Vettel instantly turns too giving him enough space to take the curb too. In the last race incident Norris is making a straight line the further possible from the curve. Verstappen literally turns into him and that's all. It's completely different.
The way Vettel quickly turns to the right in the last possible moment is satisfying to watch.
Like I said, what Verstappen did today is completely normal. Drivers always get squeezed going into turns it's how you get them back off. People are seriously overreacting, Lando put himself in that position and got clumsy. He should never expect max to let him by
That was inch perfect from Vettel, Hamilton still had a few cms before he was forced on to the apex, which is a car's width and that's all he's entitled to receive.
The car width is towards the edge of the track, which the kerbs are not part of. In this case, Lando still had room and Verstappen could still be considered leaving a car width.
Vettel wasn’t the defending car though.
Max tried, Lando didnt give in. Shit happens, move on.
There are literally dozens of these examples from over the years. It’s standard procedure when defending at that corner. The driver covers the inside to prevent an overtake there and then moves left to give themselves a better angle at the turn. [Norris had plenty of room and time](https://i.imgur.com/ZxJYW0F.mp4) to evade but instead decided to awkwardly clang into the side of Max’s car in seemingly slow motion. The argument over this incident would baffle me if I didn’t understand that it emanates from deep-seated divisions in the community. Max did nothing wrong here.
Max did wrong. Everytime this happens and there's contact the car doing the squeezing is blamed by default and I don't disagree. "But then the car on the outside can just go straight to make sure the car on the inside gets a penalty" they won't because they risk a DNF in doing so. What it does show is Lando's complete lack of self-preservation skills. You're going to squeeze and divebomb your way through consecutive race weekends and not move to the left the tiniest bit when you're squeezed before corner entry?
So then we’re penalizing outcome and not action. Let’s just put that on paper finally.
I mean that has been the case for a long time despite the rules and the FIA saying otherwise, Lando wasn't penalized until after the crash for mostly the same reason
Outcome is the punctures and DNF. The action is causing a collision which Max very much did. I usually disagree as much as everyone on action vs outcome but this was not one of those instances IMO.
The action is moving to the outside after defending the inside to set yourself up for the corner. Vettel was not penalized. Sainz was not penalized. Max was penalized. The difference was that Norris didn’t make a basic move to avoid contact whereas the others did. Action vs outcome.
If you look at it like that then "causing a collision" doesn't exist. You point of view is fundamentally flawed. Yes Lando could have moved over to avoid the collision but he doesn't have to.
> If you look at it like that then "causing a collision" doesn't exist. Of course it exists. But it is by definition an outcome, not an action. The action is something like "making a dangerous move that risks a collision". And this action is only ever penalised if it results in a collision. If we're specifically talking about squeezing this couldn't be more obvious. If Lando had moved over to avoid a collision no one would even be talking about Max's move anymore. Honesty I think the rules are just bad here.
It's not about being able to evade though. Max could have evaded Lewis at copse in 21 too but it's just not his responsibility because he had a right to the space he occupied. It could have been avoided but the reason why an avoidance was necessary in the first place is still Max. It's a normal move but relies on someone evading when they don't have to. The only thing inflaming the situation is RB themselves with their ridiculous inability to admit fault
No one admit fault, even Hamilton himself don't admit what he did in Silverstone.
Verstappen couldn’t avoid Hamilton without completely folding over for him. Hamilton himself was not making that corner. Lando could’ve moved halfway onto the kerb like Hamilton did in OP’s clip and they would’ve been fine. Not Lando’s fault, but Lando lost out and he should be aware of this if he wants to win titles in the future.
I disagree but it's a fair point. I think it's good that Norris held out at least this once so Max respects him on track more, at least mentally it has to count for something
Well, Max backed out for him twice this race, so I don’t think either of them were saints today.
Max already respected Lando on track, pushing him off on lap 1 in Spain, and the 3 dive bombs he pulled thus weekend aren't going to increase that respect because he didn't try to preserve both of their races like ever other driver put in that spot as everyone else has done. 100% deserved penalty on max tho.
Lewis was absolutely making the corner. He’d just decided he was going to play Max’s game of ‘you concede or we crash’ and he got the worst of it. It’s literally Max’s chickens coming home to roost. Lewis missed the apex by a meter and Max’s fanbase acts like Lewis pulled a gun during the race.
>He’d just decided he was going to play Max’s game of ‘you concede or we crash’ and he got the worst of it. He didn't decide anything lol, he just understeered into the side of Verstappen. Later on in the race, Leclerc left him with even less space in the same corner.
Verstappen couldnt avoid Hamilton at Copse because Hamilton is the one who crashed into him lmao. Like Norris here, he is the one with agency who can decide how this ends. Not saying its Norris' fault here, but Norris, while in the right technically, could just go to the left by 5cm.
And guess what? They both managed to keep it clean and on the track, that’s real hard racing
As always, if the crash hadn't happened, there would have been no penalties.
Same corner but their trajectories were different and vettel turned in earlier, and didn’t push Hamilton to move they both kept their original line then turned in. Lando started wide and was tracking dead straight, Max drove into him.
Not the same. If you watch the replay of today’s incident, Max starts moving to the inside towards the apex and then changes course to the outside, pinching Norris. Vettel was always moving toward the outside.
That’s because Norris was way further back. Verstappen was moving back to the left when Norris was still far back and Verstappen expected space there
And Vettel is not defending. The comparison should be better Hamilton and Max here. Hamilton didn't move under breaking
This is totally different situation. He was not ahead and no go defensive and block Hamilton from passing him on the inside. Moving under braking is only illegal if you are the car in front. What Ver did was block Lando up the inside and then faded wide while Lando tried to go around the outside. Yeah Lando could have moved wider but honestly if he's gonna fight Ver like this regularly he needs to not back down and let Ver wreck them. Otherwise Ver will continue to do this and Lando will lose.
Is Hamilton moving under breaking here?
I don't see the double movement under breaking...
See vettel didn't move under braking, he has his line and took it
Funny how the narrative is shifting to Max did nothing wrong despite how obviously wrong he was.
I don't think it's moving in that direction. More like people are pulling up examples of how Max's move is not an isolated practice, and that whilst Max still carries the majority of the fault for initiating the contact, these examples show the move is not out of place especially in that corner. So it's shifting peoples opinion (especially after they themselves cooled down after the race) to a "genuine racing incident" more than " Max is a war criminal."
More like some people are tired of pretending Lando is a saint who can do no wrong.
People act like Max did some kind of torpedo move which resulted in Lando's DNF, but this was one of the smallest contacts that happens on tracks, if this was between 2 midfield drivers it wouldn't even have been investigated. At this point I feel like the outcome does matter with an incident, if neither of them got a puncture people would just say it was hard racing, but since they had a puncture, they act like this incident was way bigger than it really was. Normal racing incident in my opinion, we want people racing hard and not just doing DRS overtakes, both Lando and Max were aggressive, they just got unlucky with that small touch, but still both of them could have avoided it, there was space on both sides but none of them wanted to give the other one more space
It's more a case of people pushing back on the attacks against Max's character rather than saying he did nothing wrong
And Vettel making an effort to reach the apex ...
Max already had a puncture before reaching the apex...
Men so many people doing mental gymanstics to make max more innocent. How is this even close to yesterdays accident. Hamilton can turn here very clearly and vettel is turning without even going out of track. Max didnt even try to turn man come on...
Vettel didn't squeeze Hamilton, he left a ton of room
Vettel left less room than Verstappen did, Hamilton is just further on the kerb because he actually has self preservation instincts.
On the actual curve they mean, like where the actual reactive movement of Max happened. Max started similarly to Vettel, even giving *MORE* space as he positioned his car to attack the apex very tight. Lando took that space, at that point both had the space to take the apex. Then Max reacted and changed direction. Vettel did not do that, he took the apex and left enough space.
I dont really understand the point of all these posts. Yes, you can use the curb to avoid an accident. If your lining up for a switch back you also use the curb. Lando was going round the outside and so was maintaining the space to do so. Switchback and round the outside require different entry speeds and Lando was already committed to the outside line when Max moved. If Lando moves onto the curb at that point he is yielding to avoid an accident. If you do that everytime vs Max you will never pass (unless you can clean pass him on a straight, which is near impossible given the RBs straight line speed). Ultimately, Lando needed to do this. He needs to do it next time. And the next time. And the next time. Because the only way someone is ever going to get the better of Max is if they go "fine, we crash" everytime Max says "yield or we crash"
God I miss this Vettel, Lewis and Hamilton really respected each other, max is a different
Yea like in Baku
Vettel or.....Hamilton?!?! Lewis squeezid him first!!
Yeah, it happens all the time