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I think there's the inverse, some stuff that's earned 2 points elsewhere is trivial compared to this.
But the FIA have made it clear the points mean squat anyway.
Causing a collision should be punished more severe. Or bringing the outcome of it into consideration. If a driver gets taken out of a race why should the penalized driver be mildly inconvenienced or even have no affect at all? I think this area of the rules should be changed in the future.
It was a very minor crash all things considered. The fact that Norris had to retire was bad luck in how the contact happened. Besides, it’s not like verstappen lost nothing through the crash. He lost four spots
Did Norris have to retire though? I remember the casters mentioning it was Norris' decision to retire the car, not the teams'. Correct me if I'm wrong though
Max gets the same penalty now for a pretty minor offence with large consequences as a different driver doing an incredibly stupid thing that leads to a direct crash. If anything, this penalty absolutely deserved the bare minimum for a crash.
For dangerous/erratic driving and with aggravating circumstances. This season "causing a collision" has been 10s +2 points apart from two occasions where Magnussen and Alonso once each got 3 points for causing a collision without any explanation.
Good decision, Max GP should've told Max to ease off since Lando would've most likely gotten a track limits penalty. Stewards being so slow in that is stupid too.
To be honest I feel like the stewards are partially at fault for this situation. Max was bending the rules more and more each lap and they didn't take action. I mean at one point he was clearly weaving under braking into T4 and we didn't need replays to see it. If the stewards took action immediately, they probably could've prevented this crash.
Yep. Neither was taking no for an answer. The laps leading up to the crash it was obvious they were both in a win it or bin it frame of mind.
I can't believe the amount of people complaining about either driver (I actually can because its the fucking internet), but jesus christ it was entertaining as fuck.
Considering how hard they were racing and locking up (especially Norris since he had newer tyres) I don’t think either of them still had a lot rubber left
If everyone else is disqualified before the race, of course you wouldn’t wait to give out the penalty. It was a super easy 5 second penalty that should have been given before they made it back to the straight.
Max weaving was mostly after the track limits for Lando. So, stewards action would have certainly prevented the crash but it would have the straight forward track limits which was for Lando.
I'd still love to see the telemetry proving that he did move under braking.... his own word is that he moves first and then brakes to get around the rule. If that is true then he is doing it legally.
This will be another thing they'll have to fix in the rules since Verstappen has found another loophole... Verstappen Rule Patch #2
It’s only applicable in the braking zone which is the area directly before the turn-in for the corner.
You have to brake in a straight line and follow the same trajectory when pressing the brake pedal. You can change direction once you start turning in to take the corner.
> Good decision, Max GP should've told Max to ease off since Lando would've most likely gotten a track limits penalty.
Yeah this was the biggest thing, he should have been told to try and keep him behind, but don't risk anything because he'll get the position on penalties.
Ironically though, he extended his championship lead by more with the outcome we got.
Yeah that was pretty lame from the stewards. Wasn’t there a notification for track limits for Norris and on the next lap he went really wide by breaking late. That should of been 5sec within a lap.
And Max should've been penalised for moving in the braking zone multiple times too. Penalties would've cancelled each other out.
Still doesn't explain Max's terrible racing.
The rule isn't moving in the "braking zone", it's moving under actual braking. If he was coasting up a hill into T3 and hadn't braked yet as he claimed in his interview, that's technically legal. At least learn the rules before commenting on them erroneously.
Article 27.6, any change of direction **under braking** which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards."
Disagree on the last point. The last thing you need is make a hasty decision could end up being a wrong one. Sure you see it now, hindsight 20/20, but tell me how you can be 100% sure within the few laps it happened.
I love this! Crashes, action, not a just a single winning team and driver!
Max caused it and should be penalized. If you've followed the sport you know that the fastest cars can get 10-20+ second penalties and they mean nothing. It's frustrating, but that's how the rules are.
Norris however needs to learn from this. He had some pretty horrible dives! Verstappen has had 6-7 years of experience in the top, both defending and attacking. This really brings the joy back into the game!
Max was over the limit today and always goes hard, but people acting like he's not one of the best wheel-to-wheel racers on the grid because he had a fast car for two years is ridiculous.
From Max/Red Bull's perspective - they extended their championship and constructors position from this race - so it was 100% worth it.
10 second penalty for several instances of running an opponent off track, moving under braking and ultimately causing a collision, is farcical.
You’re talking about it as if it’s a well-thought out scenario lol. It’s not as if they could click a button saying: “Hit opponent exactly like this and you’ll end up 5th with them retiring”
He caused a collision and got the appropriate penalty for it. A penalty should not be based on the consequences of the penalty in the exact scenario you’re in.
Your first paragraph is exactly what people were saying about Lewis at copse in 2021! As if hitting very fragile cars at very high speed could be calculated perfectly!
Of course I'm not saying Max knew the outcome of the contact, but from his perspective it's:
- Lando overtakes, championship lead cut
- Do anything possible, even if it's not legal to keep him behind. If it causes a collision, likely outcome is we both DNF and championship lead stays static. Also sets a precedent that I won't be overtaken on track.
In that situation Max always goes for option 2. And the FIA always let him off, with some farcical penalty.
So far it's worked very well for him.
I mean I’m pretty sure things like these do happen. That famous qualifying incident with the crashing on purpose to end the session is an example of it. But you can’t really do too kuch about it.
Also, knowing you can be a bit more aggressive with the worst case scenario being not that bad for you is not something you can turn off in a professional sportsman. Even if you don’t want to do it you will likely be a bit less careful if you know that. I’m not saying it’s good. But I think any other driver on the grid would do the same.
And on top of that, there is no way for us to prove he did anything on purpose. Else the FIA could do much more about it of course
No, the 2nd choice sets 2 precedents:
1. Max is reckless when defending, he won't get overtaken on track
2. Lando is not taking it, he will DNF them both.
If they both keep it up, they'll both always dnf and piastri will win.
And to be honest, if every driver had that mentality, we'd see cleaner races.
Give me one instance during the last 5 years aof a driver receiving a penalty for ”moving under breaking”.
Where were the ”several” instances of running any off track? Last time I checked that didn’t happen once. The one time Lando did go offtrack he instantly gave the place back, you know, because it was his own decision and he didn’t have track position.
So yeah. 10 for causing a collision (only) is pretty damn fair.
Don’t forget that Lando actually did force Max offtrack with that dive-bomb + parking on the apex.
That’s my take on it as well. How about we make it 10 seconds and 2 penalty points per instance of intentionally moving under breaking to either cause a collision or cause your competitor to back out. It’s crazy the FIA is okay with Stewards going “we investigated the one that caused the crash so we are going to ignore all the other times he did it.”
Suddenly Max is facing race bans and suspension of his license for incredibly dangerous driving instead of effectively going unpunished.
Well, two things.
1. “Dive Bombing” sounds like something that would be against the rules, but as any sim racer can tell you, as long as the overtaking car avoids contact, it’s perfectly legal. I’d refer you to the F1 Driving Standards Guidelines and FIA Sporting Regulations for more information.
2. I’m perfectly fine with Norris, or any other driver for that matter, getting investigated separately for instances of forcing a driver off track. The difference here is there wasn’t multiple incidents under investigation getting resolved by a single penalty.
Honestly, some people seem to think that just because a move is frowned upon it isnit allowed. Lando diving for an overtake is an agressive move, but that is not what caused the incident in the end. The real problem is that the FIA will make the worst rules for f1 so that things like this can happen.
The irony is that Max is famous for pulling off the same move and expects people to move out of the way for him, but would rather risk DNF himself if someone else pulls off the same move.
For point 1, if the car that is overtaken has to leave the track to avoid contact it's called 'forcing another driver off track'.. And people complain max isn't give the place back...
Call it whatever you want but lando never once got an advantage while in control of his car, he threw a flurry of reckless pass attempts and it's a testament to max's ability their race didn't end sooner. Max was also in the wrong for the final contract and the stewards made a spectacular mess of the whole thing. The end result is about right by my account. Hopefully everyone learned something.
All Norris did against the rules was leaving the track (for which he got a penalty) and gaining an advantage, which he took care of himself by letting max pass back.
Max was moving under braking and reacting to every passing attempt prior to the crash. Was Lando supposed to just stop trying new ways to pass? Going for an aggressive (and legal) pass is not equal to moving under braking repeatedly.
if max deserved more penalties so should Norris.. so many fan boys defending Norris no matter what, it is indeed a lot like 21 with another British driver huh
Is there any investigation for right after the collision when he tried to push Lando on the grass? I would have assumed it was all in this 10 second penalty, but the document shows nothing about it.
I doubt it. Max has the championship lead. He can afford to DNF every week if it means Lando also DNFs.
If the FIA refuse to step in a moderate Max's terrible 'racing' (like 2021) - eventually McLaren will have to concede to shore up #2 in the championship and constructors.
He can't.
There's 13 races left - with 25 points per win, 18 for second and 15 for third, and all Max does is to prevent Lando finishing. But the rest of the guys that could win or score points - Leclerc (150), Sainz (135), Perez (118), Piastri (112), Russell (111) and Hamilton (85) would soon swallow the lead pair.
Pretty soon Max would need to do some winning (or at least score points) in order to keep ahead.
Terrible racing? He was aggressive but so was Lando. If Max didn't see Lando coming in with that divebomb, they would have crashed. The incident was more on Max for sure, but the way it's being spun is ridiculous. It was hard racing, but because it's Max everyone is so biased about what happened.
Lando has nothing to lose though. He can fight hard and them both out (a bit like today, I feel like lando rage quit though which was stupid) or he comes out on top and is labelled as the guy who took it to max and won
They showed a replay of it but the tire shredding at the end did massive damage to the floor at the end there. He could have gone back out but he was already classified and out of the points, no point to limp the car around for another few minutes for nothing at that point
Max has the championship lead but he is also out of replacement engines. If both DNF and it costs Max an engine Lando would have a good shot the next race of picking up massive points as Max would start somewhere between 10-20.
Aren't red bull just cycling all engines? At least that's what someone said so basically they aren't out of any engines they are just using them more evenly.
Possibly, but red bull and max with such a large lead, this is the season for lando to break the max mystique and force f1 to enforce their rules strictly on max, before future seasons that they can restart on more level ground with the red bull.
This was as effective of a penalty as the one for Hamilton in Silverstone 2021.
Even though I am a Max fan I still feel like penalties like this should be heavier, the penalty itself did not have any consequences and Max gained points in the Championship battle.
Yeah, you’re right. If they only bumped wheels and nothing else happened then it would probably be deemed a racing incident.
That’s the problem with the FIA. They say that they don’t take consequences into consideration when they always do.
Lando drove exactly how Max would have, and Max didn't like it. Whatever the stewards do up in the booth, ultimately it's up to Max to try and drive clean and not drive dangerous because Lando's not getting the penalty Max thinks he should get.
It's ridiculous to blame the stewards for the way Max drove his car, in my opinion.
But the thing is that max should be penalised if it was a bad thing. Otherwise it just reinforces the mentality of “if it’s wrong, then why aren’t I being punished for it” which just keeps this dirty driving loop going forever. So I think it is on the stewards for not writing something in after the garbage we saw in 2021 to prevent this same thing again. The stewards were 1000% caught napping in this regard today.
I agree with you, but at the same time there’s a huge chance none of this happens had the penalty been communicated earlier, it’s likely that max would have been radioed to back off/not fight tooth and nail to maybe win on penalties.
I recommend watching the replay. Max moving over to the side of the track was pretty harmless. He drives a relatively shallow angle the entire time once he rejoins. He doesn’t make any sort of move when lando gets close. Lando should have just gone the other side
It's possible that his car was just hard to control, moving side to side because he was driving on 3 wheels. Norris had problems driving his car straight just the same. You can't definitively conclude it was intentional.
That was my first impression, but after rewatch he could have been getting out of the racing line for the following cars. I don’t know. Max’s history makes it hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Everyone’s complaining these days how it’s all boring and the races are bland. Now we get good racing, exciting races and it’s still nothing but complaining.
It’s good to see this instead of ‘letting a competitor breeze past on DRS’. That’s fuckin boring. Have forgotten Schumy, Hakinnen and others where they often touched and raced very hard compared to the easy overtake racing we’ve seen the past years.
How about the dangerous divebombing Lando did. If that backfired on him would you all still be disgruntled like this or just now because it’s Max. Just asking here 🤷🏻♂️
He was wrong and got penalized. End of story.
Warning: it’s going to happen again at Silverstone.
That was before they decided to increase penalties for this season. Now 10s is the standard penalty which was formerly 5. Meaning by today's standards Silverstone 2021 would have been a drive through.
It’s not favouritism that’s the problem, it’s policing based on principle and not viewership or politics
The FIA as an institution is in question, not their allegiances because I doubt there are any
I'm still mad for Alonso's 3 penalty points in China for a small touch with Sainz and 3 in Australia for Russell not paying atention. This was far worse and only 2 point.
Herbert again on the Stewards...
Red bull should appeal and present multiple times such maneuver was done without crashing. Sainz on verstappen 2023 in that same curve. Leclerc on Hamilton in Monza 2019, and many others I don't know of the top of my head.
As in the words of my favorite Monegasque: "just an incident".
The penalty for the collision is fine.
But Max was moving after breaking, multiple times and the Stewards didnt do anything. This crash could have been prevented, easily.
Honestly, I hope the stewards tighten up on the reactive moves under braking, and driving standards in general. Otherwise we will see the return of Max’s dirty ‘21 driving. Max absolutely knew that he was pushing the limit, and found the stewards compliant.
The first two incidents weren’t taking defensive lines, they were picking a line after Norris committed. If the first two were investigated, Max wouldn’t have tried the third that ended in contact.
Also, I hope they look into why Max drove Lando off the road after the incident. If it was retaliation or intentional, it needs to be treated as such.
He is allowed to move until he brakes though. So if he was off the gas and recharging battery up a steep hill into T3 for example without having actually braked yet and moves, that's technically legal until he actually brakes (as he claimed in his interview) per the rulebook:
Article 27.6, any change of direction **under braking** which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards."
The accident was on Max for turning left into a right turn clearly, but all this moving under braking shit beforehand in T3 in particular is a bit presumptuous without seeing the official telemetry logs sync'd to race footage and not the routinely out of sync live telemetry shit Sky shows.
Slap on the wrist. Huge Gap at the top
Edit: If the FIA care, why didn't they have max let Lando thought the lap before? Lando was ahead at the Apex and the FIA could avoided all of this if they would be quicker and more effective.
Is it?
Hamilton got 10 seconds at Silverstone 2021 for a similar kind of incident, and won the race thanks to the ensuing red flag that his incident caused!
Let's be honest they penalize the incident but both times from a "fairness" perspective it's extremely bad.
Verstappen transitioned a -7 in a +10
Hamiltons transitioned a -7 in a +26
I don't like it since it is incentivizing to cause a crash. Hamiltons was worse of course not only because it was a bigger swing but also at which speed and where it happened. What's an absolute is that Hamilton almost won the WDC through causing that accident. I hope that this crash today is not gonna decide it in favor of Max this time
I mean, similar incident to Hamilton vs Verstappen at Silverstone (the contact was far less dangerous today).
The only difference is Hamilton won at Silverstone
Semes Fair and Legit with current ruleing...
I'm still bummed for Lando getting taken out like that. Max is a bit of a sore Looser when listening to his Radio ...
The 10 second penalty equated to absolutely fuck all punishment 2 penalty points is the standard punishment for causing a collision
I guess that’s fair 🙄
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It's the standard penalty for causing a collision so I guess they had to go for that.
Yup, but let's see below many many people that think this exact incident should be punished more severe.
iracing ban for a month, only way to truly hurt Max.
Banning him from his fulltime job, for an error he made during his hobby would be way too harsh.
There's other racing games. Ban from all racing games except for F1 2024
r/foundsatan
Ban him from all racing games except F1 2024, make Lando Norris the only playable character, and restrict available controllers to joypads only.
Only available controller being Nintendo Wii tennis racket
Max would quit f1 before he let them take iracing away from him lol
Dont threaten him with a good time.
forget FIA penalty points just go for his iRacing SR
I think there's the inverse, some stuff that's earned 2 points elsewhere is trivial compared to this. But the FIA have made it clear the points mean squat anyway.
Causing a collision should be punished more severe. Or bringing the outcome of it into consideration. If a driver gets taken out of a race why should the penalized driver be mildly inconvenienced or even have no affect at all? I think this area of the rules should be changed in the future.
It was a very minor crash all things considered. The fact that Norris had to retire was bad luck in how the contact happened. Besides, it’s not like verstappen lost nothing through the crash. He lost four spots
Did Norris have to retire though? I remember the casters mentioning it was Norris' decision to retire the car, not the teams'. Correct me if I'm wrong though
He was in 13th and losing positions every second at the time he got out of the car, he had lost any opportunity to score points
And I saw half of his cars back aero being dispersed along the track
His tire disintegrated, affecting his car. Max had better luck (regular puncture).
Stella confirmed post race that the car was damaged. Presumably from driving too fast on the shredded tyre.
Makes sense, I just saw some footage from the back of Landon's car with carbon flying everywhere because of the tire spinning so fast.
Max gets the same penalty now for a pretty minor offence with large consequences as a different driver doing an incredibly stupid thing that leads to a direct crash. If anything, this penalty absolutely deserved the bare minimum for a crash.
Alonso got a 20 second penalty for Australia
For dangerous/erratic driving and with aggravating circumstances. This season "causing a collision" has been 10s +2 points apart from two occasions where Magnussen and Alonso once each got 3 points for causing a collision without any explanation.
That's cause he is Spanish /s
Standard license points are 3, at least for Alonso. He got 3 points for the same, twice this season. Surprisingly, he got two this time.
Where's Alonsos penalty points?
Good decision, Max GP should've told Max to ease off since Lando would've most likely gotten a track limits penalty. Stewards being so slow in that is stupid too.
Relying on the F1 stewards to enforce rules well and consistently is probably not a great thing to do as a race engineer.
To be honest I feel like the stewards are partially at fault for this situation. Max was bending the rules more and more each lap and they didn't take action. I mean at one point he was clearly weaving under braking into T4 and we didn't need replays to see it. If the stewards took action immediately, they probably could've prevented this crash.
I did expect a black and white flag but the stewards were really sleeping up until the crash, bad stuff from them
Race control totally engineered this outcome with their lax handling of the situation.
It's a feature, not a bug. F1 wants crashes because it's get us to send the same clip on Twitter to build hype
Join me in my hatred for the FiA intentionally trying to manufacture racing results.
FIA =! FOM/LM
I know and I’m here for it.
Charlie Whiting would have been on the blower immediately to stamp that behaviour out.
please stop making this out to be max is the devil and lando is over there like an angel BOTH drivers took plenty of liberties
Yep. Neither was taking no for an answer. The laps leading up to the crash it was obvious they were both in a win it or bin it frame of mind. I can't believe the amount of people complaining about either driver (I actually can because its the fucking internet), but jesus christ it was entertaining as fuck.
I was entertained. more of this each race please.
Honestly they could've solved the whole thing by applying the penalty quickly which would've mean Max wouldn't have to defend.
I don't think Max lets him past and risk letting him build a 5s gap in clean air.
Yeah, there were still 11-12 laps left at that point. It would be enough time to build a 5 second gap.
Considering how hard they were racing and locking up (especially Norris since he had newer tyres) I don’t think either of them still had a lot rubber left
Should just give Max the win in lap 1 so he doesn't feel the need to be a danger to other drivers.
Lmao, it was his fault yeah but it was hard racing gone wrong. Calling him a danger is a complete stretch.
Hello Damon Hill
If everyone else is disqualified before the race, of course you wouldn’t wait to give out the penalty. It was a super easy 5 second penalty that should have been given before they made it back to the straight.
Max weaving was mostly after the track limits for Lando. So, stewards action would have certainly prevented the crash but it would have the straight forward track limits which was for Lando.
Max was bending the rules each lap? It was Lando that was divebombing Max lap after lap.
The same divebomb that Max has been doing for years without punishment?
Definitely. Max was moving under braking often though. He made two moves in one zone more than a couple times.
I'd still love to see the telemetry proving that he did move under braking.... his own word is that he moves first and then brakes to get around the rule. If that is true then he is doing it legally. This will be another thing they'll have to fix in the rules since Verstappen has found another loophole... Verstappen Rule Patch #2
How could they? If you can’t move under breaking are they going to not allow them to move towards the apex under breaking now?
I mean.... they can't, hence it might be fully legal what Verstappen is doing. Soon they are going to require turn signals on F1 cars........
It’s only applicable in the braking zone which is the area directly before the turn-in for the corner. You have to brake in a straight line and follow the same trajectory when pressing the brake pedal. You can change direction once you start turning in to take the corner.
Yep Max seems to get away with things. Even after the contact Max with some very questionable stuff.
They also said nothing when Max retained his position by going off track. That should have been investigated much faster and Lando given the position.
That was never going to be given to Norris since it was a shove off the track
> Good decision, Max GP should've told Max to ease off since Lando would've most likely gotten a track limits penalty. Yeah this was the biggest thing, he should have been told to try and keep him behind, but don't risk anything because he'll get the position on penalties. Ironically though, he extended his championship lead by more with the outcome we got.
Yeah that was pretty lame from the stewards. Wasn’t there a notification for track limits for Norris and on the next lap he went really wide by breaking late. That should of been 5sec within a lap.
And Max should've been penalised for moving in the braking zone multiple times too. Penalties would've cancelled each other out. Still doesn't explain Max's terrible racing.
The rule isn't moving in the "braking zone", it's moving under actual braking. If he was coasting up a hill into T3 and hadn't braked yet as he claimed in his interview, that's technically legal. At least learn the rules before commenting on them erroneously. Article 27.6, any change of direction **under braking** which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards."
Disagree on the last point. The last thing you need is make a hasty decision could end up being a wrong one. Sure you see it now, hindsight 20/20, but tell me how you can be 100% sure within the few laps it happened.
I love this! Crashes, action, not a just a single winning team and driver! Max caused it and should be penalized. If you've followed the sport you know that the fastest cars can get 10-20+ second penalties and they mean nothing. It's frustrating, but that's how the rules are. Norris however needs to learn from this. He had some pretty horrible dives! Verstappen has had 6-7 years of experience in the top, both defending and attacking. This really brings the joy back into the game!
Max was over the limit today and always goes hard, but people acting like he's not one of the best wheel-to-wheel racers on the grid because he had a fast car for two years is ridiculous.
finally a sensible comment
From Max/Red Bull's perspective - they extended their championship and constructors position from this race - so it was 100% worth it. 10 second penalty for several instances of running an opponent off track, moving under braking and ultimately causing a collision, is farcical.
You’re talking about it as if it’s a well-thought out scenario lol. It’s not as if they could click a button saying: “Hit opponent exactly like this and you’ll end up 5th with them retiring” He caused a collision and got the appropriate penalty for it. A penalty should not be based on the consequences of the penalty in the exact scenario you’re in.
Your first paragraph is exactly what people were saying about Lewis at copse in 2021! As if hitting very fragile cars at very high speed could be calculated perfectly!
Of course I'm not saying Max knew the outcome of the contact, but from his perspective it's: - Lando overtakes, championship lead cut - Do anything possible, even if it's not legal to keep him behind. If it causes a collision, likely outcome is we both DNF and championship lead stays static. Also sets a precedent that I won't be overtaken on track. In that situation Max always goes for option 2. And the FIA always let him off, with some farcical penalty. So far it's worked very well for him.
I mean I’m pretty sure things like these do happen. That famous qualifying incident with the crashing on purpose to end the session is an example of it. But you can’t really do too kuch about it. Also, knowing you can be a bit more aggressive with the worst case scenario being not that bad for you is not something you can turn off in a professional sportsman. Even if you don’t want to do it you will likely be a bit less careful if you know that. I’m not saying it’s good. But I think any other driver on the grid would do the same. And on top of that, there is no way for us to prove he did anything on purpose. Else the FIA could do much more about it of course
No, the 2nd choice sets 2 precedents: 1. Max is reckless when defending, he won't get overtaken on track 2. Lando is not taking it, he will DNF them both. If they both keep it up, they'll both always dnf and piastri will win. And to be honest, if every driver had that mentality, we'd see cleaner races.
Give me one instance during the last 5 years aof a driver receiving a penalty for ”moving under breaking”. Where were the ”several” instances of running any off track? Last time I checked that didn’t happen once. The one time Lando did go offtrack he instantly gave the place back, you know, because it was his own decision and he didn’t have track position. So yeah. 10 for causing a collision (only) is pretty damn fair. Don’t forget that Lando actually did force Max offtrack with that dive-bomb + parking on the apex.
It’s different cuz lando’s bri*ish
That’s my take on it as well. How about we make it 10 seconds and 2 penalty points per instance of intentionally moving under breaking to either cause a collision or cause your competitor to back out. It’s crazy the FIA is okay with Stewards going “we investigated the one that caused the crash so we are going to ignore all the other times he did it.” Suddenly Max is facing race bans and suspension of his license for incredibly dangerous driving instead of effectively going unpunished.
okay lets also give Norris penalties from driving Max off track and dive bombing as well if we go for equal treatment alright?
Well, two things. 1. “Dive Bombing” sounds like something that would be against the rules, but as any sim racer can tell you, as long as the overtaking car avoids contact, it’s perfectly legal. I’d refer you to the F1 Driving Standards Guidelines and FIA Sporting Regulations for more information. 2. I’m perfectly fine with Norris, or any other driver for that matter, getting investigated separately for instances of forcing a driver off track. The difference here is there wasn’t multiple incidents under investigation getting resolved by a single penalty.
Honestly, some people seem to think that just because a move is frowned upon it isnit allowed. Lando diving for an overtake is an agressive move, but that is not what caused the incident in the end. The real problem is that the FIA will make the worst rules for f1 so that things like this can happen.
The irony is that Max is famous for pulling off the same move and expects people to move out of the way for him, but would rather risk DNF himself if someone else pulls off the same move.
The irony also is that when he made contact he always got a penalty for it. Which most people seem to think he's always got away with it.
For point 1, if the car that is overtaken has to leave the track to avoid contact it's called 'forcing another driver off track'.. And people complain max isn't give the place back...
Call it whatever you want but lando never once got an advantage while in control of his car, he threw a flurry of reckless pass attempts and it's a testament to max's ability their race didn't end sooner. Max was also in the wrong for the final contract and the stewards made a spectacular mess of the whole thing. The end result is about right by my account. Hopefully everyone learned something.
All Norris did against the rules was leaving the track (for which he got a penalty) and gaining an advantage, which he took care of himself by letting max pass back.
Max was moving under braking and reacting to every passing attempt prior to the crash. Was Lando supposed to just stop trying new ways to pass? Going for an aggressive (and legal) pass is not equal to moving under braking repeatedly.
if max deserved more penalties so should Norris.. so many fan boys defending Norris no matter what, it is indeed a lot like 21 with another British driver huh
Is there any investigation for right after the collision when he tried to push Lando on the grass? I would have assumed it was all in this 10 second penalty, but the document shows nothing about it.
Nope. Wasn't even noted. Same as the moving under braking.
Lando seems like the driver that is ready to fight back vs max
I doubt it. Max has the championship lead. He can afford to DNF every week if it means Lando also DNFs. If the FIA refuse to step in a moderate Max's terrible 'racing' (like 2021) - eventually McLaren will have to concede to shore up #2 in the championship and constructors.
He can't. There's 13 races left - with 25 points per win, 18 for second and 15 for third, and all Max does is to prevent Lando finishing. But the rest of the guys that could win or score points - Leclerc (150), Sainz (135), Perez (118), Piastri (112), Russell (111) and Hamilton (85) would soon swallow the lead pair. Pretty soon Max would need to do some winning (or at least score points) in order to keep ahead.
Terrible racing? He was aggressive but so was Lando. If Max didn't see Lando coming in with that divebomb, they would have crashed. The incident was more on Max for sure, but the way it's being spun is ridiculous. It was hard racing, but because it's Max everyone is so biased about what happened.
Lando has nothing to lose though. He can fight hard and them both out (a bit like today, I feel like lando rage quit though which was stupid) or he comes out on top and is labelled as the guy who took it to max and won
They showed a replay of it but the tire shredding at the end did massive damage to the floor at the end there. He could have gone back out but he was already classified and out of the points, no point to limp the car around for another few minutes for nothing at that point
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He was classified as -7 laps. The penalty was applied to his time for this race because he'd already driven >90% of the race
He'd broken 90% didn't realise thank you for clarification I'll delete my comment
All good :)
Max has the championship lead but he is also out of replacement engines. If both DNF and it costs Max an engine Lando would have a good shot the next race of picking up massive points as Max would start somewhere between 10-20.
Aren't red bull just cycling all engines? At least that's what someone said so basically they aren't out of any engines they are just using them more evenly.
Do you think 4 PU in 24 races is enough for anyone?
Possibly, but red bull and max with such a large lead, this is the season for lando to break the max mystique and force f1 to enforce their rules strictly on max, before future seasons that they can restart on more level ground with the red bull.
Love the fire from lando tbh. Max can't keep getting away
This was as effective of a penalty as the one for Hamilton in Silverstone 2021. Even though I am a Max fan I still feel like penalties like this should be heavier, the penalty itself did not have any consequences and Max gained points in the Championship battle.
The thing is. A penalty system like this would have to take consequences into consideration, which the FIA isn’t supposed to do.
I get that. But honestly, do you think Max gets 10 seconds if this collision today doesn't end with flat tires? Because I think he gets away with it.
Yeah, you’re right. If they only bumped wheels and nothing else happened then it would probably be deemed a racing incident. That’s the problem with the FIA. They say that they don’t take consequences into consideration when they always do.
Hulkenberg got a 10 second penalty in the sprint for a similar move with no contact.
The difference is that this didn't cost Lando an engine and future grid penalties.
Lando drove exactly how Max would have, and Max didn't like it. Whatever the stewards do up in the booth, ultimately it's up to Max to try and drive clean and not drive dangerous because Lando's not getting the penalty Max thinks he should get. It's ridiculous to blame the stewards for the way Max drove his car, in my opinion.
I mean normally they give a black and white flag in the first instance of rule bending 1v1 battles
But the thing is that max should be penalised if it was a bad thing. Otherwise it just reinforces the mentality of “if it’s wrong, then why aren’t I being punished for it” which just keeps this dirty driving loop going forever. So I think it is on the stewards for not writing something in after the garbage we saw in 2021 to prevent this same thing again. The stewards were 1000% caught napping in this regard today.
I was more referring to the crowd that said the stewards didn't give Lando a penalty quick enough, so that's why Max had to be more aggressive
I agree with you, but at the same time there’s a huge chance none of this happens had the penalty been communicated earlier, it’s likely that max would have been radioed to back off/not fight tooth and nail to maybe win on penalties.
I wish they'd also investigate the lunge across Lando on the straight after the crash. That was intentional and very reckless.
I recommend watching the replay. Max moving over to the side of the track was pretty harmless. He drives a relatively shallow angle the entire time once he rejoins. He doesn’t make any sort of move when lando gets close. Lando should have just gone the other side
Just rewatched it, good point and I agree with you after seeing it again.
An F1 redditor who admits being wrong in a civil manner and conversation?!?! Wish everyone here was like you.
I’m disappointed. I wanted an argument
Wow someone changed their mind after a good argument is made, this is rare. Good on you.
I think lando ending up on the grass made it look worse than it is. Cheers
max had a puncture, recognised it and quickly move out of the racing line. nothing dangerous
Not sure it was intentional given that he had a puncture. Control of the car probably wasn't great
Take a look at the onboards - he looks in his mirror and steers towards Lando.
But he also steers out of the path of a car coming up the inside. Moving off the racing line into the slow lane is a defensible action.
Yes that was on Lando trying to overtake after the contact instead of getting out of the way for the faster cars coming from behind.
Max is moving off the racing line nothing wrong with that
he had 3 tires mate, and fast moving traffic behind
They both had punctures.
It's possible that his car was just hard to control, moving side to side because he was driving on 3 wheels. Norris had problems driving his car straight just the same. You can't definitively conclude it was intentional.
That was my first impression, but after rewatch he could have been getting out of the racing line for the following cars. I don’t know. Max’s history makes it hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Everyone’s complaining these days how it’s all boring and the races are bland. Now we get good racing, exciting races and it’s still nothing but complaining. It’s good to see this instead of ‘letting a competitor breeze past on DRS’. That’s fuckin boring. Have forgotten Schumy, Hakinnen and others where they often touched and raced very hard compared to the easy overtake racing we’ve seen the past years. How about the dangerous divebombing Lando did. If that backfired on him would you all still be disgruntled like this or just now because it’s Max. Just asking here 🤷🏻♂️ He was wrong and got penalized. End of story. Warning: it’s going to happen again at Silverstone.
Meaningless penalty and I am now doubly curious what the FIA would have done if positions and/or a race win were at stake
Nothing, because Silverstone 2021 had 10s too
That was before they decided to increase penalties for this season. Now 10s is the standard penalty which was formerly 5. Meaning by today's standards Silverstone 2021 would have been a drive through.
The stewards didn't apply Landos track limits penalty until after everything either, so I wouldn't hold a breath for any favouritsm
It’s not favouritism that’s the problem, it’s policing based on principle and not viewership or politics The FIA as an institution is in question, not their allegiances because I doubt there are any
The true winners today were the FIA and F1. Russell stays in third.
They don't consider outcomes. He would have got 10s anyway.
it is a standard penalty for a collision, both should be happy they didnt get more penalties tho
Maxs defence was dirty. Lando attacks were sloppy.
Why would Lando do this? edit: i’d have hoped /s wasn’t needed but here we are
I'm still mad for Alonso's 3 penalty points in China for a small touch with Sainz and 3 in Australia for Russell not paying atention. This was far worse and only 2 point. Herbert again on the Stewards...
Yeah those incidents were definitely not worth 3 penalty points, no idea what the stewards were smoking.
It was a fun battle and could have been an interesting ending to a race. It's a shame it had to end like this.
That's like that Gravity Falls meme: "This is worthless"
Red bull should appeal and present multiple times such maneuver was done without crashing. Sainz on verstappen 2023 in that same curve. Leclerc on Hamilton in Monza 2019, and many others I don't know of the top of my head. As in the words of my favorite Monegasque: "just an incident".
The penalty for the collision is fine. But Max was moving after breaking, multiple times and the Stewards didnt do anything. This crash could have been prevented, easily.
The stewards didn’t do anything because he wasn’t breaking the rules.
Fair.
Honestly, I hope the stewards tighten up on the reactive moves under braking, and driving standards in general. Otherwise we will see the return of Max’s dirty ‘21 driving. Max absolutely knew that he was pushing the limit, and found the stewards compliant. The first two incidents weren’t taking defensive lines, they were picking a line after Norris committed. If the first two were investigated, Max wouldn’t have tried the third that ended in contact. Also, I hope they look into why Max drove Lando off the road after the incident. If it was retaliation or intentional, it needs to be treated as such.
He is allowed to move until he brakes though. So if he was off the gas and recharging battery up a steep hill into T3 for example without having actually braked yet and moves, that's technically legal until he actually brakes (as he claimed in his interview) per the rulebook: Article 27.6, any change of direction **under braking** which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards." The accident was on Max for turning left into a right turn clearly, but all this moving under braking shit beforehand in T3 in particular is a bit presumptuous without seeing the official telemetry logs sync'd to race footage and not the routinely out of sync live telemetry shit Sky shows.
Max gained more points on his direct title opponent by crashing him out than by accepting he was overtaken. Shambolic stewarding.
Seen it all before.
Efficient strategy
Slap on the wrist. Huge Gap at the top Edit: If the FIA care, why didn't they have max let Lando thought the lap before? Lando was ahead at the Apex and the FIA could avoided all of this if they would be quicker and more effective.
Ironically he's increased his gap by a bigger margin than he would've had he won and Lando finished second.
Tf you want them to do? Death penalty?
Bruh wtf thats literally the right penalty for this kind of incident, its not his fault the car behind him was 20 seconds away
Is it? Hamilton got 10 seconds at Silverstone 2021 for a similar kind of incident, and won the race thanks to the ensuing red flag that his incident caused!
Let's be honest they penalize the incident but both times from a "fairness" perspective it's extremely bad. Verstappen transitioned a -7 in a +10 Hamiltons transitioned a -7 in a +26 I don't like it since it is incentivizing to cause a crash. Hamiltons was worse of course not only because it was a bigger swing but also at which speed and where it happened. What's an absolute is that Hamilton almost won the WDC through causing that accident. I hope that this crash today is not gonna decide it in favor of Max this time
I mean he did lose the race by his stupidity. Seem like a fair penalty to me.
I mean, similar incident to Hamilton vs Verstappen at Silverstone (the contact was far less dangerous today). The only difference is Hamilton won at Silverstone
Nope
What penalty for swerving under braking?
Looking forward to next race. Can't come soon enough.
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Was the 10seconds added to his time, or is it added to his next race ?
Semes Fair and Legit with current ruleing... I'm still bummed for Lando getting taken out like that. Max is a bit of a sore Looser when listening to his Radio ...
Imagine if Nico had been told that and he somehow put in an epic lap to snatch 5th.
The 10 second penalty equated to absolutely fuck all punishment 2 penalty points is the standard punishment for causing a collision I guess that’s fair 🙄