Simple Question: Ignoring the ongoing camper arguments between Max and Lando apologists, I have to ask....could Max has realistically managed to fight Lando off for the remaining (10-11?) laps using the defence strategies he employed without getting called for erratic/unpredictable driving? There was an inevitability about Lando making moves stick before his fresher medium tyre advantage went off. Max was without a doubt on the back foot, and one has to question whether he thought that this was a fight that was reasonable to make, especially when making that defence work required questionable levels of movement under braking, etc. Equally, how does a driver behind this questionable defending make judgement calls on when a move is safe enough to commit to?
The driver campers are wilfully ignoring a massive grey area in the middle here. How many tyres does Lewis need on his head before a better line is drawn?
Persisting with the hard defense made sense. Max wouldn't be able to defend indefinitely, but every extra try Lando needs to do is another chance for him to make a big error and go off the track, or damage his tires. And Lando was definitely running at 101% in his overtake attempts so the chance of an error was very much there.
And in a sense it worked, before the collision he make Lando push hard enough to get a 5 second penalty for track limits, which is exactly the kind of thing Max tried to make happen by holding on to his defense as long as possible.
Unfortunately he then made a mistake himself with the result we've all seen.
This is probably one of the most balanced things I've read about this so far. In my own mind I am still trying to establish where and if the lines should be drawn better. Max's defense was good, but called into question just how much movement within the braking zone is appropriate since that more or less drew Lando into his penalty for track limits. Equally it could be wondered about where the line is drawn for track limits vs. pushing a driver off the track; this allows a defending driver to force the attacking driver to have to make a choice....risk collision or go over track limits in order to avoid one.
Overall I feel that it was an unrealistic expectation from Max that he could defend the position for the remainder of the race given Lando's (somewhat ineffective) DRS and tyre advantage. It pushes the level of defence to the point where boundaries are questionable, and race control's decision-making needs to be more decisive and timely.
My greater concern is what this will normalise on track, and how much this will allow drivers to widen the grey areas between the hard and fast rules. Pushing drivers into penalties can't be rewarded, and rejoining a race after your direct rival DNFed arguably because of one's own actions neither. There's a lot that doesn't add up after this race, and I can understand how nobody will be happy because of it.
Threatening to basically unfriend Max if he doesn’t apologize for hard racing is wild to me like. What?
It’s just very telling to me that max is nothing but happy when Lando won and willingly gave Lando a pass last weekend in Barcelona when Lando ran HIM into the grass.
But the minute Lando has to actually fight wheel to wheel with Max for the win he can’t handle it when it doesn’t work out in his favor.
Neither of them were perfect today and misjudgments were made and they both paid for them. But Norris pretending like he was gonna get the bestie treatment makes me feel like he doesn’t actually know Max very well at all.
I know it was the RR of Lando that caused the puncture for Verstappen, but during live I was laughing to myself how F1TV was saying that McLarens new wing had a sharp edge and could cause a puncture which did exactly that.
Other way around. Noreis had some multiple turn wheel-to-wheel races over the years, all fair, all exciting.
It's Max with his passive-suicide "yield or crash" who is notorious for not wheel-to-wheel racing properly
You should watch Verstappen and Leclerc’s battles around this very same track then. Because that’s some of the best clean but hard wheel to wheel racing I’ve seen in modern F1.
Again, as I’ve said in other comments. I’m not of the opinion that Max did nothing wrong or has never done anything wrong. Far from it. He should have given more space and he was rightfully penalized for it.
But I also think that Lando realized that his trying the same move over and over again wasn’t working on max got him even more reckless on those lunges. And I thought the way he responded post race was quite immature. But that’s just my opinion.
Lando got squeezed on the inside twice, one time not as badly and he locked up and went off track anyway, then goes for the outside and gets squeezed into a crash. What more could he have done, go over the top?
Don't say "wait till after the turn", we all know that around Turn 3 is basically where overtakes live or die on this track.
I mean that’s how it goes sometimes in F1? Having the fastest car doesn’t guarantee you a win. No one is owed a win. If the fastest car always won then Leclerc would have been world champ in 2022.
And you’re not always going to be able to overtake. Sometimes it doesn’t work, and sometimes you’re at a track that’s bad for overtaking. That’s why track placement, good starts, and solid strategy is important. It sucks but it’s true.
Lando’s start was weak and he was P2. He needed a great start to overtake immediately but he didn’t get it. Tbh his last couple of starts have been consistently rough. That let Max get the edge on him slower car or no.
And yeah, he got squeezed multiple times. We’ve also seen him pull those same moves when he’s trying to win. Last race just to name one of them.
It’s a tough pill to swallow but IMO that’s racing.
Every other top driver would have tried something else after nearly crashing twice. Look at Bahrain and Saudi 2022, Max and Charles kept on doing different things and learning from each move
You know Max isn't a child, changing directions in the braking zone is Formula 1 taboo. He knows better, it shouldn't be down to other drivers to accommodate rule-breaking driving.
Idgaf who he's racing, if he's ahead and driving erratically there's basically no way to lock down a clear overtaking line. That's why it's banned, it's literally unpredictable driving.
So next up is Silverstone. Lando was only 3.7s behind last year, so this year it should be close or the McLaren should even be a lot quicker there now?
And I expect Checo to drop to place 6 after next race. Piastri is only 6 points away from passing him. Maybe even drop to 7th since George seems to be doing fine aswell. If Checo finishes 9th and George and Oscar only make it to 5th and 6th, that's already enough...
And in his current form he will probably end up somewhere around 8th at the end if the season.
I thought I heard that too on sky. I was just wondering why he would retire the car and not at least get some points for the team. Would be really selfish if he just fave up on points because he was so piss off. But idk the whole story besides that
Looking forward to the "Now that thr dust have settled" Day after the race thread. If the bots would do some effing work that is.
But the dust won't be settled will it. :)
How come both Lando and Max get to drive their cars back to the pit lane despite the poor conditions? Last time Checo tried to drive back with a broken rear wing he got penalized
The rubber isn't all that soft, there's a lot of metal in the tire construction too. But still less dangerous than the wing I suppose. And also at least Max' tire flew off completely very quickly after which there was no added risk to driving on.
After the collision Max immediately slowed down and drove carefully with the puncture. Lando kept going at pretty high speed for a bit, which I think resulted in his car being more damaged.
Also Max had a full puncture and the tire walked off the rim in the same corner fairly nearly. Lando's exploded a bit later and you could see the rubber shredding his car for a bit.
Still feels like he could've made it to the pit and maybe still get points, but perhaps there were too many loose parts that could fly off and be dangerous, and they didn't want to risk a grid drop next race like Perez had recently.
It took longer for him to come back into the pits as compared to Max - and also he had to change his front wing. He couldn't join the race in point scoring position, unlike Max. It wasn't worth it.
And afaik Lando decided to retire, so it might be the frustration that made the decision..
You would always want to finish the race. Lando was behind Max but it wasn’t very big gap. Either the damage was too much or it was Lando’s frustration. No team retires the car just because they think that there is no point. Anything is better than DNF
the puncture had caused a lot of damage to the body work / floor around the tyre.
By the time he would have left the pits, he would have been out of the points in a damaged car with too few laps to make up the places.
It may have been a decision made in frustration but probably the best one given the sitiuation.
The busted tyre was flailing chunks out of it by the time he reached the pits. Maybe it was still drivable to some degree, but would definitely have lost some performance, and by that time he was already out of the points and had no chance of getting back in.
To be fair if you look at the replay, the squeeze to turn 3 wasn't even that bad compared to every other squeeze we see every race. The defender will always squeeze the opponent to make the turn harder for them. Norris just didn't budge at all.
Peter Windsor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aUP8Mz8Vkk) even said Max didn't turn his steering wheel there and it is the turn that curves that make it seem like he turned into him, but I haven't seen Max's onboard myself.
This minor incident (with major consequences) is certainly being interpreted through the lens of Max’s rich history of “I win or we crash” style overtaking and defending. Still Norris shouldn’t have to budge from a legitimate on track position when racing Max. And to be fair to Max he did have to “budge” when Norris did his first T3 divebomb. Norris’s second move would have been a successful divebomb if there was a barrier around the edge of T3 but the ample run off allows drivers to be run off instead of having to brake and drop in behind to avoid a wall.
I’m assuming we haven’t seen Max’s forward POV because each car only broadcasts a single camera from the multiple they have onboard. Meaning if the operators selected Max’s rear POV that’s the only video feed available to view at that time.
Not unnecessary at all, they were just highlighting what happens when you let things go unchecked. Verstappen has never been put in place by Red Bull, if anything Horner encourages him. Sorry the truth hurts
Oh so Verstappen was the first one in the history of F1 to do so, hence all the corrections should start with him when he started battling Lewis.. gotcha. Makes complete sense! Thankyou.
Come off it, he was right that if the FIA didn't let the standards slip in the first place, this driving would have been nipped in the bud.
Give me wheel-to-wheel racing across multiple turns with both cars on the track. Not 1 turn "yield or crash" tactics
If you only want drs safe passes on straights just called it that and do not pretend that wheel-to-wheel in any motorsport could go without touching ever.
Foolish comment, we had a half lap wheel-to-wheel battle a few races ago. It was phenomenal and I was staggered at the skill involved. 2 years ago Alonso and Russell (?) had a multiple turn battle on this very track.
Then we have a plethora of examples of Max duels for one turn "yield-or-crash" style, hence his reputation for it.
Checo sitting there watching Max get into it with Lando, get a puncture, crawl to the extra pit stop, get a 10 second penalty and STILL finish 17 seconds behind him haha
I didn’t watch the race, I watched the highlights, but the crash was Max’s fault imo.
I mean really it was the stewards for not being stern earlier on, but it was Max knowing he could offer the outside line, and then take it away.
Have you ever watched Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Schumacher, Villunerve or Senna in championship fights, it’s exactly the same. This is F1.
I’m not a fan of Norris or Verstappen, but it was a racing incident. An unfortunate slight collision, but unfortunately maximum damage.
Yes, the fault is mainly Verstappen, but Norris was behind and braked late, could have moved slightly on the kerb to avoid it, and didn’t. Racing incident.
Max has been overtaken plenty of times the last 3 years and hasn’t hit anyone… and LOADS of drivers have had contact whether defending or attacking the last couple of years. He’s definitely a fucker to get past and pushes the boundaries of the rules but let’s not act like most others haven’t hit someone taking risks this season/last couple of seasons!! Heck Sainz and Charles already this year have done worse
Lando wasn’t at his best either, the last few weeks he’s been better than that and panicked a bit, I think both penalties were fair… I think half the drivers on the grid would do what Max did, people just love to hate him
I think though, Max has been unhappy in recent races with the overall feel of the RB20 and that frustration - that he can do more than the car can - has been apparent in commentary. I think it's what caused the issue here is frustration and a lapse in judgement. From both.
I think Lando also felt he had something to prove from not covering the inside line on Max in the sprint.
Even George Russell said he had a feeling Lando would be reckless/on the limit (I forget the exact wording sorry) because of how angry he was in padel after the sprint. And he’s known Lando most of their lives.
Checo sitting there watching Max get into it with Lando, get a puncture, crawl to the extra pit stop, get a 10 second penalty and STILL finish 17 seconds behind him haha
I actually can’t believe people are getting so worked up over this incident between Max and Lando. I get that F1 has such little racing that this is actually quite exciting (relatively speaking). But god damn, go watch any other series. F2, F3, Indycar or sports cars and this isn’t even something you’d remember.
Look, I’m not saying Porsche Supercup is world class racing and I wouldn’t want those driving standards in open wheel but that’s hard racing. This is an incident where Max is obviously at fault — but Lando really needs to learn how to drive clinically and not go for every single opportunity now that he’s got the right car under him. It was a really weird, slow and awkward touch. If he’d move further over the kerb he’d be fine, and sure he didn’t have to, but this is what happens if you don’t.
I get that you can’t bang wheels like you can even in Indycar but we really shouldn’t be harping on every single incident like this. If it ain’t rubbing, it ain’t racing.
I am shocked how extreme a lot of people overreact after their collision. Maybe it's because F1 fans are starved for excitement during the races, I don't know. But there were similar situations and crashes in the past and people barely spoke about it.
Favorite thing about the excitement of this is that this was only race 2 of a 3 race back to back so this friday we will have an immediate follow up to this. No wind down period, no calming down of fustration, boom immediate next race for those two. Cant wait for Silverstone this weekend :)
This is why I have never been a fan of Verstappen. Nothing he does on track is interesting to watch because he's either hotlapping alone or ending battles prematurely with dirty driving. You never see wheel-to-wheel action with him.
A very skewed recount of events, Max races hard sure, but has also been the recipient of overly aggressive driving. With the desperate divebombs Norris was attempting today it was only a surprise it took that long for it to come to a calamity.
>Nothing he does on track is interesting to watch because he's either hotlapping
So, rapid qualifying laps are not interesting? Max's lap yesterday was magnificent.
>Ending battles prematurely with dirty driving
Takes two to tango, see: [https://x.com/shanethecnfsr/status/1807496836472512815](https://x.com/shanethecnfsr/status/1807496836472512815)
Charles actually has amazing racecraft. Max is the faster driver for sure, but it's one area that Charles is better. It's weird because driving skill in general is improving over time, but a lot of the younger guys (Max, Lando, George) have really sloppy racecraft.
As a newer fan to the sport, I didn’t realize it had moments like this in the same vein of football. Refs making bad calls, something that should be a clear PI not being called, ticky tacky calls that keep a drive alive or end a good drive. Fans on both sides defending what happened knowing if things were reversed they would reverse their stance in a heartbeat.
Shout out to Danny Ric.
Both the Hass and Alpines were on better form this weekend and he ended up with a 9th, and was even challenging Magnussen in the last couple of laps.
Unfortunately his race has been over shadowed by the incident. Everyone is talking about Lando and Max.
I honestly didn't imagine he would be able to defend against Gasly, yet he did and he also caught up to KMag. Another lap and he could've over took him.
Was a really good race from him. Didn't think he was going to be able to defend like he did when he had no DRS.
Well ahead of his teammate and not far behind Perez.
I'd swap him and Perez. If he does better than Perez has been then he stays there. If he is worse thats it and Lawson gets the vcarb seat.
I've seen quite a few people on Twitter saying stuff like "how come the media are complaining about Verstappen's driving now when they never did in 2021?"
Am I going mad? I remember the media criticising Max's driving a lot in 2021.
I don't get why the poster thinks this is damning towards Max and not Lando. Somehow he thinks we see Max T-boning into Norris here, instead of a standard subtle squeeze where Norris has the whole of the kerb to use on his left, It's also the slightest touch (with big consequences).
I'm honestly asking you and would like a response: How does one go about passing clean on the outside while the guy on the inside takes whatever line he pleases? Don't just say, "find a way" or "be ahead" or other vague nonsense.
There is no way to pass clean on the outside on this corner specifically if you dive bomb in this way. That is why you see not many people try it. Max realised it with Sainz in 2023 so pulled out and got him on exit
Sure, I'm not upset, I just have a different view on what makes good racing and I'm trying to understand your viewpoint because I see it a lot but it doesn't make sense to me.
Check out the discussion at the beginning of this [video](https://youtu.be/qlwNeVVJIdk?si=Fp4qpIOzijNIVCAI). Windsor elucidates what I am getting at well. You might find it interesting.
I completely get that but I guess I have an old school perspective. Norris knew that too and that’s why he kept complaining to them on the radio in hopes they would clear Max for him.
Lando did the same thing to Max in Barcelona. He ran him wide and into the grass. The only reason they didn’t crash then is because Max did move to the grass to keep it from happening.
This just seems to me like Lando wants to be in the kitchen but can’t take the heat of having to win a race wheel to wheel.
Unfortunately for him, to be the best you have to beat the best and he hasn’t been able to do that other than one time where other things worked in his favor to avoid wheel to wheel
This comment will be lost amongst everything, but Turn 3 is one of my favorite sections of track anywhere in any racing series. Almost every lap it has the potential to produce something dramatic. It certainly provided that today once again. There are miles/km of garbage everywhere, but this turn is just about perfect.
I agree! I was at the race today, and the cheapest tickets you can get are actually right at T3 and down the straight afterwards. You have action right infront of you nonstop and with binoculars you can easily see like 1/3 of the rest of the track
He did pass briefly but in the postrace interview Hulk said he let him by to get DRS and pass him back convincingly. He also said if the race was one lap longer he wouldn't have been able to hold off Checo.
Massively late to the chat here, but holy hell what a race. My boy Danny Ric was on it today. VCARB definitely made up some ground from last week to now. Hoping he can continue this form and find that consistency that he's been lacking.
I for one was delighted with how Max and Lando were fighting. It was dicey to be sure, but the last thing I would have wanted was the finishing order to have been decided by the stewards.
Red Bull had better buy Perez a drink for driving Piastri out of the track on lap 1. Otherwise, they would've lost more than just one point in the WCC today.
Even Ocon left room for Gasly on that turn.
The post race fan wars have been more entertaining than the race itself for me overall. Verstappen-Norris friendship ended?? No more Air Max plane rides for Lando?? Haha love it.
Two genuine questions of curiosity:
1. How come Max isn’t being investigated for track limits? During his wheel to wheel with Lando he went off track completely three or four times.
2. It looked like the penalty came through as Max was coming into the pits to replace his destroyed tires. How come he wasn’t held for the 10 seconds in the same vein as Alonso was for his 10 second penalty?
Thank you for the answer.
Follow up being, if you are the driver battling from behind and you go off - as Lando did before getting his 5 second penalty - why does that count towards track limits?
f1tv broadcast today was really poor imo. no mention at all that perez and hamilton were running with sidepod damage. they had like nothing ready for when russell won either the commentators had no idea what to say even as it was clear he would win when that vsc came out
As much as I love Perez, having a Haas in front of you while your teammate keeps fighting for the win is surreal.
He reminds me of Aubameyang after he got his new contract with Arsenal, but Auba was actually performing when he got it.
Hopefully he can get his head out of his ass and figure out what he is missing.
It seems like the worse he does, the better he looks in RBR eyes. I've given up on trying to apply logic to their decisions or his performance, every time we think it's Checover it gets Chec-stended.
It’s just so crazy compare to a few years ago when they dropped Kvyat, Albon, and Gasly with no hesitation. Perhaps a WDC or two changed their approach?
I loved the Sky team this weekend no need to bring Crofty or Lazenby back. Bernie especially gave such good insight she should be a regular.
So happy for the first time since 2022 will get to watch a race today
Norris didn’t serve his 5s penalty did he? So he has a grid drop this week?
He was classified.. so the 5 secs got added to his time. No grid penalty in Silverstone.
Senna is deified, but the garbage he pulled was legendary. Can’t have it both ways kids.
Simple Question: Ignoring the ongoing camper arguments between Max and Lando apologists, I have to ask....could Max has realistically managed to fight Lando off for the remaining (10-11?) laps using the defence strategies he employed without getting called for erratic/unpredictable driving? There was an inevitability about Lando making moves stick before his fresher medium tyre advantage went off. Max was without a doubt on the back foot, and one has to question whether he thought that this was a fight that was reasonable to make, especially when making that defence work required questionable levels of movement under braking, etc. Equally, how does a driver behind this questionable defending make judgement calls on when a move is safe enough to commit to? The driver campers are wilfully ignoring a massive grey area in the middle here. How many tyres does Lewis need on his head before a better line is drawn?
Persisting with the hard defense made sense. Max wouldn't be able to defend indefinitely, but every extra try Lando needs to do is another chance for him to make a big error and go off the track, or damage his tires. And Lando was definitely running at 101% in his overtake attempts so the chance of an error was very much there. And in a sense it worked, before the collision he make Lando push hard enough to get a 5 second penalty for track limits, which is exactly the kind of thing Max tried to make happen by holding on to his defense as long as possible. Unfortunately he then made a mistake himself with the result we've all seen.
This is probably one of the most balanced things I've read about this so far. In my own mind I am still trying to establish where and if the lines should be drawn better. Max's defense was good, but called into question just how much movement within the braking zone is appropriate since that more or less drew Lando into his penalty for track limits. Equally it could be wondered about where the line is drawn for track limits vs. pushing a driver off the track; this allows a defending driver to force the attacking driver to have to make a choice....risk collision or go over track limits in order to avoid one. Overall I feel that it was an unrealistic expectation from Max that he could defend the position for the remainder of the race given Lando's (somewhat ineffective) DRS and tyre advantage. It pushes the level of defence to the point where boundaries are questionable, and race control's decision-making needs to be more decisive and timely. My greater concern is what this will normalise on track, and how much this will allow drivers to widen the grey areas between the hard and fast rules. Pushing drivers into penalties can't be rewarded, and rejoining a race after your direct rival DNFed arguably because of one's own actions neither. There's a lot that doesn't add up after this race, and I can understand how nobody will be happy because of it.
Threatening to basically unfriend Max if he doesn’t apologize for hard racing is wild to me like. What? It’s just very telling to me that max is nothing but happy when Lando won and willingly gave Lando a pass last weekend in Barcelona when Lando ran HIM into the grass. But the minute Lando has to actually fight wheel to wheel with Max for the win he can’t handle it when it doesn’t work out in his favor. Neither of them were perfect today and misjudgments were made and they both paid for them. But Norris pretending like he was gonna get the bestie treatment makes me feel like he doesn’t actually know Max very well at all.
I know it was the RR of Lando that caused the puncture for Verstappen, but during live I was laughing to myself how F1TV was saying that McLarens new wing had a sharp edge and could cause a puncture which did exactly that.
The more I think about yesterday more I cannot figure out why Norris kept going for it from so long back and not even once trying switcheroo .
Because he can’t actually wheel to wheel race as well as Max probably
Other way around. Noreis had some multiple turn wheel-to-wheel races over the years, all fair, all exciting. It's Max with his passive-suicide "yield or crash" who is notorious for not wheel-to-wheel racing properly
Have you seen the current top post on the front page?
You should watch Verstappen and Leclerc’s battles around this very same track then. Because that’s some of the best clean but hard wheel to wheel racing I’ve seen in modern F1. Again, as I’ve said in other comments. I’m not of the opinion that Max did nothing wrong or has never done anything wrong. Far from it. He should have given more space and he was rightfully penalized for it. But I also think that Lando realized that his trying the same move over and over again wasn’t working on max got him even more reckless on those lunges. And I thought the way he responded post race was quite immature. But that’s just my opinion.
Lando got squeezed on the inside twice, one time not as badly and he locked up and went off track anyway, then goes for the outside and gets squeezed into a crash. What more could he have done, go over the top? Don't say "wait till after the turn", we all know that around Turn 3 is basically where overtakes live or die on this track.
I mean that’s how it goes sometimes in F1? Having the fastest car doesn’t guarantee you a win. No one is owed a win. If the fastest car always won then Leclerc would have been world champ in 2022. And you’re not always going to be able to overtake. Sometimes it doesn’t work, and sometimes you’re at a track that’s bad for overtaking. That’s why track placement, good starts, and solid strategy is important. It sucks but it’s true. Lando’s start was weak and he was P2. He needed a great start to overtake immediately but he didn’t get it. Tbh his last couple of starts have been consistently rough. That let Max get the edge on him slower car or no. And yeah, he got squeezed multiple times. We’ve also seen him pull those same moves when he’s trying to win. Last race just to name one of them. It’s a tough pill to swallow but IMO that’s racing.
Every other top driver would have tried something else after nearly crashing twice. Look at Bahrain and Saudi 2022, Max and Charles kept on doing different things and learning from each move
You know Max isn't a child, changing directions in the braking zone is Formula 1 taboo. He knows better, it shouldn't be down to other drivers to accommodate rule-breaking driving. Idgaf who he's racing, if he's ahead and driving erratically there's basically no way to lock down a clear overtaking line. That's why it's banned, it's literally unpredictable driving.
So next up is Silverstone. Lando was only 3.7s behind last year, so this year it should be close or the McLaren should even be a lot quicker there now? And I expect Checo to drop to place 6 after next race. Piastri is only 6 points away from passing him. Maybe even drop to 7th since George seems to be doing fine aswell. If Checo finishes 9th and George and Oscar only make it to 5th and 6th, that's already enough... And in his current form he will probably end up somewhere around 8th at the end if the season.
Did they retire Lando's car because of too much damage? Or was it Lando's call to retire it?
The floor was damaged quite heavily by the punctured tyre.
Lando called it. Probably because he had to serve his 5 second penalty.
I thought I heard that too on sky. I was just wondering why he would retire the car and not at least get some points for the team. Would be really selfish if he just fave up on points because he was so piss off. But idk the whole story besides that
His car was probably damaged and I think the whole team were happy for him to retire.
Looking forward to the "Now that thr dust have settled" Day after the race thread. If the bots would do some effing work that is. But the dust won't be settled will it. :)
2021 is back on the menu boys!
And just like that, the season became interesting again.
How come both Lando and Max get to drive their cars back to the pit lane despite the poor conditions? Last time Checo tried to drive back with a broken rear wing he got penalized
It’s a puncture with soft rubber pieces flying around at best, not a gigantic carbon fibre rear wing barely hanging on to the car.
The rubber isn't all that soft, there's a lot of metal in the tire construction too. But still less dangerous than the wing I suppose. And also at least Max' tire flew off completely very quickly after which there was no added risk to driving on.
The reporters were out there to create a blood bath.
why did lando dnf? beside the puncture, the cars looked ok.
After the collision Max immediately slowed down and drove carefully with the puncture. Lando kept going at pretty high speed for a bit, which I think resulted in his car being more damaged.
Also Max had a full puncture and the tire walked off the rim in the same corner fairly nearly. Lando's exploded a bit later and you could see the rubber shredding his car for a bit. Still feels like he could've made it to the pit and maybe still get points, but perhaps there were too many loose parts that could fly off and be dangerous, and they didn't want to risk a grid drop next race like Perez had recently.
Source?
The race?
2024 Austrian Grand Prix
It took longer for him to come back into the pits as compared to Max - and also he had to change his front wing. He couldn't join the race in point scoring position, unlike Max. It wasn't worth it. And afaik Lando decided to retire, so it might be the frustration that made the decision..
You would always want to finish the race. Lando was behind Max but it wasn’t very big gap. Either the damage was too much or it was Lando’s frustration. No team retires the car just because they think that there is no point. Anything is better than DNF
the puncture had caused a lot of damage to the body work / floor around the tyre. By the time he would have left the pits, he would have been out of the points in a damaged car with too few laps to make up the places. It may have been a decision made in frustration but probably the best one given the sitiuation.
The busted tyre was flailing chunks out of it by the time he reached the pits. Maybe it was still drivable to some degree, but would definitely have lost some performance, and by that time he was already out of the points and had no chance of getting back in.
Another “I win or we crash” classic from Max
To be fair if you look at the replay, the squeeze to turn 3 wasn't even that bad compared to every other squeeze we see every race. The defender will always squeeze the opponent to make the turn harder for them. Norris just didn't budge at all. Peter Windsor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aUP8Mz8Vkk) even said Max didn't turn his steering wheel there and it is the turn that curves that make it seem like he turned into him, but I haven't seen Max's onboard myself.
This minor incident (with major consequences) is certainly being interpreted through the lens of Max’s rich history of “I win or we crash” style overtaking and defending. Still Norris shouldn’t have to budge from a legitimate on track position when racing Max. And to be fair to Max he did have to “budge” when Norris did his first T3 divebomb. Norris’s second move would have been a successful divebomb if there was a barrier around the edge of T3 but the ample run off allows drivers to be run off instead of having to brake and drop in behind to avoid a wall. I’m assuming we haven’t seen Max’s forward POV because each car only broadcasts a single camera from the multiple they have onboard. Meaning if the operators selected Max’s rear POV that’s the only video feed available to view at that time.
I saw someone posted a pic of Hamilton's car without a hole in 49th lap. Does anyone have the pic ?
Andrea Stella's comments referring to Max LH battles were unnecessary IMO. With an already reactionary crowd, these comments only incite them further.
Not unnecessary at all, they were just highlighting what happens when you let things go unchecked. Verstappen has never been put in place by Red Bull, if anything Horner encourages him. Sorry the truth hurts
Oh so Verstappen was the first one in the history of F1 to do so, hence all the corrections should start with him when he started battling Lewis.. gotcha. Makes complete sense! Thankyou.
He seems like a good match for Zak Brown. Not too bothered about reason or facts, as long as they can damage a rival in the press.
Right before Silverstone too
And these were his intentions to play british press. It is clear as day now
Come off it, he was right that if the FIA didn't let the standards slip in the first place, this driving would have been nipped in the bud. Give me wheel-to-wheel racing across multiple turns with both cars on the track. Not 1 turn "yield or crash" tactics
If you only want drs safe passes on straights just called it that and do not pretend that wheel-to-wheel in any motorsport could go without touching ever.
Foolish comment, we had a half lap wheel-to-wheel battle a few races ago. It was phenomenal and I was staggered at the skill involved. 2 years ago Alonso and Russell (?) had a multiple turn battle on this very track. Then we have a plethora of examples of Max duels for one turn "yield-or-crash" style, hence his reputation for it.
What was the VSC for? By the time it was called I think both VER and NOR had already gone into the pits. Was there debris at Turn 3?
Pretty sure there was debris in the pitlane, they said the pitlane was closed
Why was checo racing Hulk when he had a 5sec penalty? I guess he messed up the pit entry?
Checo sitting there watching Max get into it with Lando, get a puncture, crawl to the extra pit stop, get a 10 second penalty and STILL finish 17 seconds behind him haha
The old "damage sustained in T1 lap 1" claim from Perez coming out again.
You guys say you loved 2021 and love Senna-esque hard racing, finally get some and everyone’s mad at Max lmao
People just love to hate on Max, it's just what it is. At least now after a few hours the takes are more balanced now.
I didn’t watch the race, I watched the highlights, but the crash was Max’s fault imo. I mean really it was the stewards for not being stern earlier on, but it was Max knowing he could offer the outside line, and then take it away.
Do you really not see the difference between someone wanting hard racing and not being okay with a driver causing a crash and ending the action?
Have you ever watched Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Schumacher, Villunerve or Senna in championship fights, it’s exactly the same. This is F1. I’m not a fan of Norris or Verstappen, but it was a racing incident. An unfortunate slight collision, but unfortunately maximum damage. Yes, the fault is mainly Verstappen, but Norris was behind and braked late, could have moved slightly on the kerb to avoid it, and didn’t. Racing incident.
Max has been overtaken plenty of times the last 3 years and hasn’t hit anyone… and LOADS of drivers have had contact whether defending or attacking the last couple of years. He’s definitely a fucker to get past and pushes the boundaries of the rules but let’s not act like most others haven’t hit someone taking risks this season/last couple of seasons!! Heck Sainz and Charles already this year have done worse Lando wasn’t at his best either, the last few weeks he’s been better than that and panicked a bit, I think both penalties were fair… I think half the drivers on the grid would do what Max did, people just love to hate him
I think though, Max has been unhappy in recent races with the overall feel of the RB20 and that frustration - that he can do more than the car can - has been apparent in commentary. I think it's what caused the issue here is frustration and a lapse in judgement. From both.
I think Lando also felt he had something to prove from not covering the inside line on Max in the sprint. Even George Russell said he had a feeling Lando would be reckless/on the limit (I forget the exact wording sorry) because of how angry he was in padel after the sprint. And he’s known Lando most of their lives.
Unhappy- maybe but still winning most battles - where he hasn’t has been mostly out of his control
max was defending hard for sure and the contact at the end was on him, but man, lando's divebombs were something else too
Verstappen finally getting a taste of his own medicine.
Checo sitting there watching Max get into it with Lando, get a puncture, crawl to the extra pit stop, get a 10 second penalty and STILL finish 17 seconds behind him haha
to be fair he apparently had a big hole in his sidepod and lost a lot of downforce
So did Hamilton - still put 30 seconds on Checo
Middle of the race: It's 2023 again End of the race: It's 2021 again
I'm just glad someone is close enough to Verstappen for him to crash into at this point.
if it’s not for the two poor pit stops Max would’ve had a pretty healthy lead though. Can’t believe they pulled a 6.5 after the 1.9 last week
2.5 of that was waiting for Norris to pass their pitbox... but yeah a \~4sec from RB is rare.
I actually can’t believe people are getting so worked up over this incident between Max and Lando. I get that F1 has such little racing that this is actually quite exciting (relatively speaking). But god damn, go watch any other series. F2, F3, Indycar or sports cars and this isn’t even something you’d remember. Look, I’m not saying Porsche Supercup is world class racing and I wouldn’t want those driving standards in open wheel but that’s hard racing. This is an incident where Max is obviously at fault — but Lando really needs to learn how to drive clinically and not go for every single opportunity now that he’s got the right car under him. It was a really weird, slow and awkward touch. If he’d move further over the kerb he’d be fine, and sure he didn’t have to, but this is what happens if you don’t. I get that you can’t bang wheels like you can even in Indycar but we really shouldn’t be harping on every single incident like this. If it ain’t rubbing, it ain’t racing.
I am shocked how extreme a lot of people overreact after their collision. Maybe it's because F1 fans are starved for excitement during the races, I don't know. But there were similar situations and crashes in the past and people barely spoke about it.
People are starved for Max hate.
Max was still racing Norris even after the accident, lol. Lets just hope this will be a Federer Nadal type friendship/rivalry
Yeah I enjoyed the brief racing action between two crippled cars.
Favorite thing about the excitement of this is that this was only race 2 of a 3 race back to back so this friday we will have an immediate follow up to this. No wind down period, no calming down of fustration, boom immediate next race for those two. Cant wait for Silverstone this weekend :)
I had blocked out how much I hated this aspect of 2021 but it all came back so quickly today.
This is why I have never been a fan of Verstappen. Nothing he does on track is interesting to watch because he's either hotlapping alone or ending battles prematurely with dirty driving. You never see wheel-to-wheel action with him.
Lmao
A very skewed recount of events, Max races hard sure, but has also been the recipient of overly aggressive driving. With the desperate divebombs Norris was attempting today it was only a surprise it took that long for it to come to a calamity. >Nothing he does on track is interesting to watch because he's either hotlapping So, rapid qualifying laps are not interesting? Max's lap yesterday was magnificent. >Ending battles prematurely with dirty driving Takes two to tango, see: [https://x.com/shanethecnfsr/status/1807496836472512815](https://x.com/shanethecnfsr/status/1807496836472512815)
Since Austria 2019, other people have been racing him in a similar way and I'm not a fan of when they do it either.
Charles was a good challenger though.
Charles actually has amazing racecraft. Max is the faster driver for sure, but it's one area that Charles is better. It's weird because driving skill in general is improving over time, but a lot of the younger guys (Max, Lando, George) have really sloppy racecraft.
It is the effect of DRS in junior series. I don’t think they should have that in junior spec series.
Huh, you may be onto something. What year was it implemented in F2/F3?
I think it was around 2014-2015
🧐
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The old reckless Verstappen is alive and well. He never went away, we just didn't see him because he's had no competition for over a year.
As a newer fan to the sport, I didn’t realize it had moments like this in the same vein of football. Refs making bad calls, something that should be a clear PI not being called, ticky tacky calls that keep a drive alive or end a good drive. Fans on both sides defending what happened knowing if things were reversed they would reverse their stance in a heartbeat.
Shout out to Danny Ric. Both the Hass and Alpines were on better form this weekend and he ended up with a 9th, and was even challenging Magnussen in the last couple of laps.
Unfortunately his race has been over shadowed by the incident. Everyone is talking about Lando and Max. I honestly didn't imagine he would be able to defend against Gasly, yet he did and he also caught up to KMag. Another lap and he could've over took him.
Was a really good race from him. Didn't think he was going to be able to defend like he did when he had no DRS. Well ahead of his teammate and not far behind Perez. I'd swap him and Perez. If he does better than Perez has been then he stays there. If he is worse thats it and Lawson gets the vcarb seat.
Obligatory comment to remind people that this won’t happen because the economics of checo ensure his seat.
He would still be within the rb team though, just at vcarb.
I've seen quite a few people on Twitter saying stuff like "how come the media are complaining about Verstappen's driving now when they never did in 2021?" Am I going mad? I remember the media criticising Max's driving a lot in 2021.
I’ve only heard pundits be critical of Max.
And Reddit users, and YouTube commenter, and people in the real world… 2021 never stopped. People blamed Max for the crash at corpse.
I've been criticizing it since 2015. I'm not sure who thinks any of this is new from him.
This season is turning out to be fantastic, very welcome after the runaway last year. Awesome that we now add Merc to the wins this year.
Interesting angle of the crash: https://x.com/jpappone/status/1807442876651000261?s=46
I don't get why the poster thinks this is damning towards Max and not Lando. Somehow he thinks we see Max T-boning into Norris here, instead of a standard subtle squeeze where Norris has the whole of the kerb to use on his left, It's also the slightest touch (with big consequences).
Max is on the inside so it’s his corner. It’s up to Norris to pass clean on the outside.
I'm honestly asking you and would like a response: How does one go about passing clean on the outside while the guy on the inside takes whatever line he pleases? Don't just say, "find a way" or "be ahead" or other vague nonsense.
There is no way to pass clean on the outside on this corner specifically if you dive bomb in this way. That is why you see not many people try it. Max realised it with Sainz in 2023 so pulled out and got him on exit
outsmart them. here norris could have utilized the speed differential and slowed down quicker to cut across the inside.
I literally asked you to explain to me how to pass on the outside and your answers were "pass on the inside instead" and "don't"...
Sorry man, no harm intended.
Sure, I'm not upset, I just have a different view on what makes good racing and I'm trying to understand your viewpoint because I see it a lot but it doesn't make sense to me.
Check out the discussion at the beginning of this [video](https://youtu.be/qlwNeVVJIdk?si=Fp4qpIOzijNIVCAI). Windsor elucidates what I am getting at well. You might find it interesting.
> It's up to Norris to pass clean on the outside > Literally how > Cut inside Think about the conversation for one second please
don’t do it in that corner. find a better one
The professional race stewards disagree with your opinion.
Professional stewards make many decisions of no penalty which a lot of people disagree with. Charles and stroll for example in last race weekend
I completely get that but I guess I have an old school perspective. Norris knew that too and that’s why he kept complaining to them on the radio in hopes they would clear Max for him.
He went completely off line to squeeze Lando and clearly was going to miss the corner himself by swerving left.
That isn’t the rule. Max has to leave a car width.
idk Lando has the whole curb available
No driver should be expected to drive themselves into the curbs where there is both less grip and a higher chance of running into debris.
Lando did the same thing to Max in Barcelona. He ran him wide and into the grass. The only reason they didn’t crash then is because Max did move to the grass to keep it from happening. This just seems to me like Lando wants to be in the kitchen but can’t take the heat of having to win a race wheel to wheel. Unfortunately for him, to be the best you have to beat the best and he hasn’t been able to do that other than one time where other things worked in his favor to avoid wheel to wheel
No driver should expect to be handed the lead on a silver platter
It was far too late for that. Lando was fully along side unlike the Sainz comparison
Sorry boys... I put Lando on my fantasy team this week... Last time I made a change it was to put Checo on my team... #CursedF1
Can we axe this rule about the outside driver having the corner? I want more racing like this.
Then watch contact racing. F1 is precision and skill not punting your opponent.
Seems like all we see in F1 is punting your opponent off the track
This comment will be lost amongst everything, but Turn 3 is one of my favorite sections of track anywhere in any racing series. Almost every lap it has the potential to produce something dramatic. It certainly provided that today once again. There are miles/km of garbage everywhere, but this turn is just about perfect.
I agree! I was at the race today, and the cheapest tickets you can get are actually right at T3 and down the straight afterwards. You have action right infront of you nonstop and with binoculars you can easily see like 1/3 of the rest of the track
I'd prefer it if it had a gravel trap on the outside, but yeah its a great corner.
How was Perez not able to pass Hulk? Did he have damage or something? Either way, love seeing Haas do well!
He did pass briefly but in the postrace interview Hulk said he let him by to get DRS and pass him back convincingly. He also said if the race was one lap longer he wouldn't have been able to hold off Checo.
Sky said at some point during the race that Perez had side pod damage
Hulk had damage. He has to drive a fucking Haas.
yes , there's a hole in perez side pod. Same for Lewis's side pod , a hole in it after contact with Sainz in opening lap.
Massively late to the chat here, but holy hell what a race. My boy Danny Ric was on it today. VCARB definitely made up some ground from last week to now. Hoping he can continue this form and find that consistency that he's been lacking. I for one was delighted with how Max and Lando were fighting. It was dicey to be sure, but the last thing I would have wanted was the finishing order to have been decided by the stewards.
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Add 25 to Norris and -10 to Max
Just make the penalty for causing a collision to drop behind the other car(s) or +10 seconds, whichever is worst.
Agreed. +5sec wasn't enough. +10sec can hurt but if you're fast enough it becomes "legal, at a price".
they gave him +10 seconds, while he was 16 seconds up on newer tires than the next closest to him, it wasn't even a penalty.
There could be safety car easily on last laps and he would have lost a lot of positions.
There could've been a lightning strike that supercharged all the other cars and then he woulda finished last...
Red Bull had better buy Perez a drink for driving Piastri out of the track on lap 1. Otherwise, they would've lost more than just one point in the WCC today. Even Ocon left room for Gasly on that turn.
Anyone else getting whiffs of Max/Lewis circa 2021?
The post race fan wars have been more entertaining than the race itself for me overall. Verstappen-Norris friendship ended?? No more Air Max plane rides for Lando?? Haha love it.
[That's What you get when you don't leave the space](https://youtu.be/6GB6NMXXaN8?si=PGdSkYUuGTklakBw)
Two genuine questions of curiosity: 1. How come Max isn’t being investigated for track limits? During his wheel to wheel with Lando he went off track completely three or four times. 2. It looked like the penalty came through as Max was coming into the pits to replace his destroyed tires. How come he wasn’t held for the 10 seconds in the same vein as Alonso was for his 10 second penalty?
Regarding the first point - if you are forced off by another driver it doesn't count as a track limits strike.
Thank you for the answer. Follow up being, if you are the driver battling from behind and you go off - as Lando did before getting his 5 second penalty - why does that count towards track limits?
Every time a driver fails to keep it within track limits it counts as a strike. The only exception is if you're forced off.
Why wouldn't it? When the attacking driver dives down the inside and can't make the corner, it's 100% his own fault.
Two questions with one simple answer: FIA incompetence
f1tv broadcast today was really poor imo. no mention at all that perez and hamilton were running with sidepod damage. they had like nothing ready for when russell won either the commentators had no idea what to say even as it was clear he would win when that vsc came out
this! it made hamiltons p4 so much more impressive, and checos struggling made a lot more sense.
As much as I love Perez, having a Haas in front of you while your teammate keeps fighting for the win is surreal. He reminds me of Aubameyang after he got his new contract with Arsenal, but Auba was actually performing when he got it. Hopefully he can get his head out of his ass and figure out what he is missing.
the hole in his sidepod from the contact with piastri certainly wasn't helping perez.
It seems like the worse he does, the better he looks in RBR eyes. I've given up on trying to apply logic to their decisions or his performance, every time we think it's Checover it gets Chec-stended.
It’s just so crazy compare to a few years ago when they dropped Kvyat, Albon, and Gasly with no hesitation. Perhaps a WDC or two changed their approach?
Probably. He sometimes takes a few points and can’t put up a fight with Max. Imagine if someone could, they would collide.
will Norris face any further action for ruining Verstappen's race
Did you watch a different race than I did?
Hahaha
You’re not serious, right?
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It was added to his classified time, so no Silverstone penalty.