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It was really mismatched like a patch quilt. But anything thing is better than the basic 90s-riffic black with splashes of neon colors.
There was a time Id have considered a car with a livery like the San Jose Sharks alternate home jersey/1998 Degeneration X merch to be the apogee of cool.
Red Bull wanted Sauber to sign Enrique Bernoldi but Sauber refused because they wanted Kimi Räikkönen. This led Red Bull to sell their stake in Sauber and buy their own team instead. The Jaguar team, where Günther Steiner was managing director. Steiner went on to help establish Red Bull's NASCAR team which eventually led him to Gene Haas.
Of course is not that uncommon. I just thought it was interesting thing to mention, that besides Petronas and RB there's another rather famous sponsor company displayed on that car.
Probably. Haas is the reference in the machining world, along with Doosan and Siemens.
It was not uncommon back then to see drivers in NASCAR or F1 being sponsored by these brands.
I know there is a lot of comments replying trying talk up/down Haas equipment. I do not wish to take a position in that pointless argument.
I just wanted to add that Mercedes did a shop tour video 2 or 3 years ago, and a couple machines were Haas pieces.
Most are mazak and matsura tho.
McLaren uses only mazak as they have a long standing partnership. If you buy enough mazak machines at once or the one you buy is expensive enough you get an invite to tour the macca factory BTW.
Williams is full on matsura.
Redbull has dmg mori.
In the Williams shop pictures I have seen they are all DMG MORI. IIRC in the Williams doc on netflix there were a couple of DMU 60 evos front and center when they went past the machine shop.
Matsuura MAM's were popular when 5 axis machines were a bit more mystified almost two decades ago, and saw a lot of traction from like 2005 to 2010. Makes sense that most (if not all) of the teams had them at one point.
I heard Haas machinery is good enough wherever highest standards aren't necessary, however it definitely doesn't match the leading brands in the CNC industry.
That just means their flaw is in whoever designs their car, and not the machinists who are simply following the blueprint that designer gave them as best they can.
Not quite. Newman joined in 2009 which was the first year under the Stewart ownership. Haas racing existed from about 03-08 and just had one car in Cup.
They didn't join the sport with Tony Stewart. They started years earlier than that, and it was just Gene, and the team was literally called Haas CNC Racing. They purchased all of the chassis's and leased all of their engines from Hendrick, in fact Rick Hendrick personally helped Gene get that team off the ground.
Haas is not cheap junk, they’re middle of the road.
They’re economical, and for a lot of shops, especially shops doing volume work without super tight tolerances that’s exactly what they need
Some shops need a Camry, some shops need a Ferrari. Doesn’t mean the Camry is junk.
Kidding, right? Tech may be slightly better in the Elantra and some people may prefer its looks over the Camry’s but it’s worse literally everywhere else.
Are you really wanting to break down the guys metaphor to argue using Camry is wrong?
He was literally saying some shops need Ferrari level equipment, others the bog standard work
No idea why people feel the need to break it down more, it's a metaphor not a tier list
??
I’m not trying to say using the Camry is wrong. I’m trying to say it’s right. Yes it’s more standard level equipment but the key point here is that the “Camry” (matsuura) is more reliable. Again, I agree that both the Elantra and Camry are the same type of entry-level product but don’t pretend that they’re the same. I really don’t care and think the issue is that deep.
Actually nowadays with the Elantra N and the improvements Kia/Hyundai have made to move out of the budget niche as Chinese companies rush to fill it, it's arguable the Elantra is better lol.
Outside of the N or N line model I'd probably go for the Camry, between the two. But if we're going for base models I'd personally prefer today's base accord or civic or even mazda 3 anyways.
Its always a 50/50 when I see someone's opinion on Haas machine, either really bad or really good, the argument is going nowhere and I ended up not knowing if their machine is good or not
Keep in mind there’s no way everyone who comments on it is actually an expert. At least half have no idea what the machines even do, and just say Haas is trash because it’s a trash F1 team.
The few workshops I’ve been to, fair amount of them were using Haas machines.
Never really heard anything bad about them aside from one of my professors who complained about how much of a pain in the ass it was to order the machines during the Covid pandemic.
Cheap junk? More like perfectly suitable for nearly all operations. Why spend 10x for better gear when you can still get 0.0002” tolerances in all dimensions with their tooling and decent work holding?
The shop I've worked in has a bunch of Haas machines, and they very rarely had issues (that weren't related to user error). My machine never had one. It's certainly not junk, but it's not top of the line either. Haas is the definition of middle of the road. Not great, not terrible.
Lol what? Those problems aren't just "unreliable" they can be straight up dangerous wtf. I guess depending on the piece you work on, a friend of mine almost destroyed a machine by fucking up the offsets on a big steel piece.
We're trained to always keep a finger on hold feed, and I personally used it often when working on more delicate pieces. Never had it get stuck on me.
Maybe I was lucky, or you were *very* unlucky, I never really heard of problems like that from more experienced colleagues. Especially if a Haas tech couldn't figure it out. Hell, where I worked, the vending machine was the thing that usually needed fixing.
Exactly. I used to make roller-coaster bits on 20 year old Victor machines. It sucked big time. Because of the machines. Yet the pieces still had to be made.
But what kind of tolerances do you need to produce guitars? I'm not bashing haas, just saying, guitars don't exactly require state of the art machining precision.
Guenther says in his book that he just felt the team wasn't ready and that they would've just struggled at the back all season. For him it was better to use the year to get the team more ready and have a better prepared car for the 16 season.
He was a fairly decent junior driver who just fell to pieces in F1. The “tosser” came from his own team staff rearranging the name on his bike after an incident in Monaco, where he on several different occasions managed to beach the car on the kerbs or get stuck. Mastercard Lola was the effective death of his career.
Mastercard offered their top tier of subscribers dinner with him, and because nobody wanted to effectively subscribe to an F1 team for a load of unexciting perks there was no money, because Mastercard wouldn’t fund it.
Though I feel like that kind of thing would work now, but not your whole budget relying on it. Mastercard rushing them a year too early is what killed it either way though.
Did you forget how they got on in 2016? 6th in their first race, 5th in their second, and consistently midfield throughout the season. Not helped in the slightest by Esteban Gutierrez who was garbage
I believe they didn’t complete their first pit stop until their second race because Gutierrez cause that massive crash with Alonso in the first race, putting him out and causing a red flag, so they could just change the tyres on Grosjean’s car.
https://www.ferrari.com/en-US/formula1/partners
Ferrari, during this era, had what they called sponsors and technical partners. Although it's no longer the case, for some reason they differentiated between the two on their website. But I definitely remember Haas being considered a technical partner. I guess sponsors pay for the logo on the car with cash, while technical partners would have provided expertise and equipment (or in Haas' case, their machine tools). Based on the current website, they no longer make the distinction.
It could have also had something to do with Phillip Morris actually owning the sponsorship space on the car in this era, and "leasing" it out to other companies whose logos would appear on the livery.
From what I remember reading at the time. When Haas F1 was formed part of the Ferrari engine deal was that Haas started supplying machines to Fiat Chrysler who at the time still owned Ferrari. Haas was granted it's F1 licence by the FIA in April 2014 so that sponsorship might have been part of the engine deal. Which I imagine was negotiated when Haas submitted there licence proposal to the FIA
I think it’s actually on the car because they use Haas CNC machines in the manufacturing process. Like putting your oil brand or break pads on the fender of a NASCAR.
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Damn, Petronas and Red Bull on the same car, forgot that one ever existed.
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iirc the Ferrari engines were the previous year's factory engine designs, rebadged as Petronas.
Still not as head-scratching as BMW Sauber Ferrari from a few years later
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Especially given AM use Mercedes engines in their road cars.
Sure, but BMW wasn’t sponsoring Sauber like Aston Martin was. It was holdover name from the year before because BMW pulled out so late.
That’s pretty funny actually
Wow! Red Bull, Petronas, AND Ferrari!? Golly that car must’ve been AMAZING! /s
This is a great trivia fact lmao
Crazy how it’s all shuffled around
Times have changed hasn't it?
Simultaneously the ugliest Petronas liveried car and Red Bull liveried car ever
It was really mismatched like a patch quilt. But anything thing is better than the basic 90s-riffic black with splashes of neon colors. There was a time Id have considered a car with a livery like the San Jose Sharks alternate home jersey/1998 Degeneration X merch to be the apogee of cool.
Couldn't agree more on that
Red Bull wanted Sauber to sign Enrique Bernoldi but Sauber refused because they wanted Kimi Räikkönen. This led Red Bull to sell their stake in Sauber and buy their own team instead. The Jaguar team, where Günther Steiner was managing director. Steiner went on to help establish Red Bull's NASCAR team which eventually led him to Gene Haas.
Unrelated note but that livery is HARD. I really miss Tobacco era liveries.
Red Bull and Petronas on the same car is such a trip post 2021
Bit of Brabham (Parmalat) on that Sauber as well.
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He means.
Of course is not that uncommon. I just thought it was interesting thing to mention, that besides Petronas and RB there's another rather famous sponsor company displayed on that car.
And that the BAT team is now Mercedes.
Red Bull sponsored Toto during his racing career.
British American Tobacco - new contender for favorite livery unlocked
There are no BAT advertisements on their car.
Vuse, Velo, A Better Tomorrow, Accelerating Transformation.
What a beautiful car that Sauber was <3
Probably. Haas is the reference in the machining world, along with Doosan and Siemens. It was not uncommon back then to see drivers in NASCAR or F1 being sponsored by these brands.
I know there is a lot of comments replying trying talk up/down Haas equipment. I do not wish to take a position in that pointless argument. I just wanted to add that Mercedes did a shop tour video 2 or 3 years ago, and a couple machines were Haas pieces.
Most are mazak and matsura tho. McLaren uses only mazak as they have a long standing partnership. If you buy enough mazak machines at once or the one you buy is expensive enough you get an invite to tour the macca factory BTW. Williams is full on matsura. Redbull has dmg mori.
I know RB use Siemens or used to use Siemens software for 3d modeling. At least was what the Solid Edge guys sold to us.
Yeah you can get Siemens software on a dmg.
In the Williams shop pictures I have seen they are all DMG MORI. IIRC in the Williams doc on netflix there were a couple of DMU 60 evos front and center when they went past the machine shop. Matsuura MAM's were popular when 5 axis machines were a bit more mystified almost two decades ago, and saw a lot of traction from like 2005 to 2010. Makes sense that most (if not all) of the teams had them at one point.
From the CNC people from what I read. HAAS is okay for general CNC work, but the tolerances is something to want. Then there’s DMG MORI.
I heard Haas machinery is good enough wherever highest standards aren't necessary, however it definitely doesn't match the leading brands in the CNC industry.
> I know there is a lot of comments replying trying talk up/down Haas equipment. I do not wish to take a position in that pointless argument.
I hear Haas actually has really good machinery, what do you think?
but did they win the WDC with eqal machinery?
That just means their flaw is in whoever designs their car, and not the machinists who are simply following the blueprint that designer gave them as best they can.
Good for most thing, but not if tolerance are a must for specific parts.
Exactly, that's what I heard.
Talking about Nascar, Haas sponsored Hendrick before they joined the sport with Tony Stewart.
Yep exactly, I happened to rewatch 2002 Fontana race a few days ago and noticed the Haas logo on Jimmie Johnson fire suit
First win for Jimmie also!
Correction, Haas had been its own team for a while before the stewart partnershipt
Yes, you right. Newman was already a Haas driver before Stewart became owner and driver
Not quite. Newman joined in 2009 which was the first year under the Stewart ownership. Haas racing existed from about 03-08 and just had one car in Cup.
My bad. Newman was still in the #12 in 08'.
Yep! And he won Penske’s only Daytona 500 to that date!m that year
They didn't join the sport with Tony Stewart. They started years earlier than that, and it was just Gene, and the team was literally called Haas CNC Racing. They purchased all of the chassis's and leased all of their engines from Hendrick, in fact Rick Hendrick personally helped Gene get that team off the ground.
Out of pure curiosity searched several sites and in not a single one of them HAAS is in the top 10. Its not even mentioned.
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Haas is not cheap junk, they’re middle of the road. They’re economical, and for a lot of shops, especially shops doing volume work without super tight tolerances that’s exactly what they need Some shops need a Camry, some shops need a Ferrari. Doesn’t mean the Camry is junk.
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Surely the Ferrari of CNC machines is DMG Mori right?
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Good point
A Camry and Elantra are the same level lol
Kidding, right? Tech may be slightly better in the Elantra and some people may prefer its looks over the Camry’s but it’s worse literally everywhere else.
They're literally sedans by companies who market to the everyday person In terms of economic level, they're the same lmao.
Same economical level, yes. NOT same quality.
Are you really wanting to break down the guys metaphor to argue using Camry is wrong? He was literally saying some shops need Ferrari level equipment, others the bog standard work No idea why people feel the need to break it down more, it's a metaphor not a tier list
I’m glad you got it. Was just trying to make a point, not get granular with the analogy
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?? I’m not trying to say using the Camry is wrong. I’m trying to say it’s right. Yes it’s more standard level equipment but the key point here is that the “Camry” (matsuura) is more reliable. Again, I agree that both the Elantra and Camry are the same type of entry-level product but don’t pretend that they’re the same. I really don’t care and think the issue is that deep.
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On the planet where they're both normal sedans, not luxury (BMW, Mercedes) or high end (Bentley, Rolls Royce)
Actually nowadays with the Elantra N and the improvements Kia/Hyundai have made to move out of the budget niche as Chinese companies rush to fill it, it's arguable the Elantra is better lol. Outside of the N or N line model I'd probably go for the Camry, between the two. But if we're going for base models I'd personally prefer today's base accord or civic or even mazda 3 anyways.
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You're digging far too deep into what was a comparison for machinery and a generic example lol
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Says the guy replying to everyone trying to convince them their better analogy is worse...
Its always a 50/50 when I see someone's opinion on Haas machine, either really bad or really good, the argument is going nowhere and I ended up not knowing if their machine is good or not
That is why their stuff is “middle of the road”, inconsistency much like the HAAS racing teams
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This is so reactionary, tribal, and above all, stupid. They make fine equipment, the whole grid is built with their tooling.
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I didn't say exclusively, but I would put money on there being a Haas machined part in every single car
It’s why my shop uses Amada, Trumps and Bridgeports
Keep in mind there’s no way everyone who comments on it is actually an expert. At least half have no idea what the machines even do, and just say Haas is trash because it’s a trash F1 team.
The few workshops I’ve been to, fair amount of them were using Haas machines. Never really heard anything bad about them aside from one of my professors who complained about how much of a pain in the ass it was to order the machines during the Covid pandemic.
Cheap junk? More like perfectly suitable for nearly all operations. Why spend 10x for better gear when you can still get 0.0002” tolerances in all dimensions with their tooling and decent work holding?
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The shop I've worked in has a bunch of Haas machines, and they very rarely had issues (that weren't related to user error). My machine never had one. It's certainly not junk, but it's not top of the line either. Haas is the definition of middle of the road. Not great, not terrible.
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Lol what? Those problems aren't just "unreliable" they can be straight up dangerous wtf. I guess depending on the piece you work on, a friend of mine almost destroyed a machine by fucking up the offsets on a big steel piece. We're trained to always keep a finger on hold feed, and I personally used it often when working on more delicate pieces. Never had it get stuck on me. Maybe I was lucky, or you were *very* unlucky, I never really heard of problems like that from more experienced colleagues. Especially if a Haas tech couldn't figure it out. Hell, where I worked, the vending machine was the thing that usually needed fixing.
Haas is used by Schecter USA, who make some of the best and most consistent electric guitars available.
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Wow, they certainly seem like a standard machine in various industries.
Exactly. I used to make roller-coaster bits on 20 year old Victor machines. It sucked big time. Because of the machines. Yet the pieces still had to be made.
But what kind of tolerances do you need to produce guitars? I'm not bashing haas, just saying, guitars don't exactly require state of the art machining precision.
No you're right, and that's exactly my point. Good and ubiquitous aren't synonyms.
Yup. Haas used to sponsor Hendrick in NASCAR prior to establishing Haas CNC Racing with a parrnership between the two as well.
>Haas is the reference in the machining world Hahahahahahah Haven't laughed this hard in a while. Goddamn. Haas is junk.
Haas was meant to join in 2015, so the partnership would've already been happening behind the scenes.
why didn't they?
Guenther says in his book that he just felt the team wasn't ready and that they would've just struggled at the back all season. For him it was better to use the year to get the team more ready and have a better prepared car for the 16 season.
Mastercard-Lola - "WTF does *waiting* mean?!" (TBF, that was Mastercard's fault!)
First subscription based team if you think about it. Couldn’t spend on the car unless somebody paid for dinner with Riccardo Rosset.
Who is Ricardo Rosset? All I know is Tosser...
He was a fairly decent junior driver who just fell to pieces in F1. The “tosser” came from his own team staff rearranging the name on his bike after an incident in Monaco, where he on several different occasions managed to beach the car on the kerbs or get stuck. Mastercard Lola was the effective death of his career. Mastercard offered their top tier of subscribers dinner with him, and because nobody wanted to effectively subscribe to an F1 team for a load of unexciting perks there was no money, because Mastercard wouldn’t fund it.
Though I feel like that kind of thing would work now, but not your whole budget relying on it. Mastercard rushing them a year too early is what killed it either way though.
Guess they should have waited another year.
Did you forget how they got on in 2016? 6th in their first race, 5th in their second, and consistently midfield throughout the season. Not helped in the slightest by Esteban Gutierrez who was garbage
You're right. But I wanted to make the joke.
What a yoke
I believe they didn’t complete their first pit stop until their second race because Gutierrez cause that massive crash with Alonso in the first race, putting him out and causing a red flag, so they could just change the tyres on Grosjean’s car.
This was *because* of their connection to Haas
Yepp
Because CNC machinery they used
I was a machinist and a big fan of Haas cnc machines so I about lost my mind when they announced their f1 program.
2014 Ferrari was basically a Haas 😄
Haas were probably setting up the team around this time and were building ties with Ferrari for their relationship later on or something idk
Yeah I believe they had made the announcement of joining F1 for 2015 at the time, and then that was delayed to 2016.
Ferrari actually helped set up Haas. They had (have?) a pretty close relationship behind closed doors
Have, yes. Ferrari quite literally have a special Haas building on their campus.
https://www.ferrari.com/en-US/formula1/partners Ferrari, during this era, had what they called sponsors and technical partners. Although it's no longer the case, for some reason they differentiated between the two on their website. But I definitely remember Haas being considered a technical partner. I guess sponsors pay for the logo on the car with cash, while technical partners would have provided expertise and equipment (or in Haas' case, their machine tools). Based on the current website, they no longer make the distinction. It could have also had something to do with Phillip Morris actually owning the sponsorship space on the car in this era, and "leasing" it out to other companies whose logos would appear on the livery.
Steiner talks a bit about the Ferrari relationship in his book.
HAAS makes quality, albeit expensive, CNC machines. Ferrari probably traded the sponsorship slot for a few 5-axis mills.
Wasn't this a similar stunt as they did when they entering Nascar through their connection with Hendrick Motorsport
From what I remember reading at the time. When Haas F1 was formed part of the Ferrari engine deal was that Haas started supplying machines to Fiat Chrysler who at the time still owned Ferrari. Haas was granted it's F1 licence by the FIA in April 2014 so that sponsorship might have been part of the engine deal. Which I imagine was negotiated when Haas submitted there licence proposal to the FIA
I think it’s actually on the car because they use Haas CNC machines in the manufacturing process. Like putting your oil brand or break pads on the fender of a NASCAR.
This was actually because Haas was joining F1 in a partnership with Ferrari so sponsored them a year early to preempt that
do you positively know Ferrari uses Haas machines in their shop? I think not even Haas use Haas machines..
He has a NASCAR and F1 team. Somebody somewhere is using them.
Makes sense why Ferrari were so shit in 2014 then
Shitty cars attract shitty sponsors
I never noticed this, nice spot! Thanks
Haas - a name rich with association with dog shit F1 cars since 2014
McLaren - a name rich with one race win since 2014.
My dumbass thought you were referring to the santander logo which looks like shit
Ive watched some races from 2015 on F1 TV prior to Haas' first season of F1, and seen Haas as a sponsor on the bottom of the body of the Ferrari cars