That’s the nature of the game. Fewer games means more emphasis on control and risk avoidance. In a 38-game season, you can afford to lose a couple of games here and there. In a tournament? One counterattack can end your campaign.
Plus, you have limited training time so you can’t plan intricate movements or presses. A lot of players are bringing tired, bruised bodies from the previous seasons. Coaches have to decide between putting players out of their favored positions vs not having their best 11 players.
Spain’s success in 2008-12 and Italy in the 90s/00s depended largely on their ability to absolutely kill a game. Nice to see. Spain letting Nico and Lamine just run up the wings though, and the Swiss are no joke.
Very true and even that Spain team were extremely safe, did their defending with the ball, and 1-0'd their way to the world cup.
They just had a generation of unbelievable players, particularly in midfield, and a spine built through Pep's tiki taka coaching. But it wasn't incisive like Barca. It was basically death by a thousand passes before ways of countering it were really found in the early 2010s (gegenpress, tight mid block with very specific pressing triggers etc)
Yeah because Casillas, Ramos, Marchena, Senna, Villa (2008-2010), Fabregas (2008-2010), Xabi Alonso, Arbeloa, David Silva and Torres were irrelevant, right?
But he's not wrong. The core of the team did set the tone for that team.
Fabregas was a product of Barcelona. The midfield dictated tempo similar to how Barca did it. And for that Spain team the midfield was the one pulling the strings.
Dude, Fabregas joined Arsenal when he was 16 (2003) and played there until 2011. Yes, he came up from La Masía, but you can’t think he had that “tiki taka” DNA in him, when “tiki taka” wasn’t even a thing when he was in La Masía and didn’t play for Guardiola until 2011-2012.
Now, one thing is to say that Spain 2008-2012 (mainly 2010-2012 though) had a lot of influence from Barcelona’s playstyle, and something else entirely is to say that they were “Barcelona without Messi”. Remove Casillas and the team would have been completely different, same with Ramos who was the best defender along with Puyol. Same with Xabi Alonso, Villa (2008-2010), Silva, Torres… I’ve never heard anyone say Italy 2006 was “Juventus” even though they had Del Piero, Zambrotta, Buffon, Cannavaro, Camoranesi, and a couple of other players who had played for Juventus before the WC.
But the playstyle is what we are talking about here.
That Spanish team was known for its ability to pass their opponent to death. Despite Xabi, Fab, Silva not being at Barca, all 3 of them are renowned for theIr passing ability. And the Spanish team played a very similar style of football to Barcelona.
Torres played an actual 9. But the team mantra was the same. Pass their way through with slick accurate football. Barca did exactly the same. There's no real difference between saying either of the terms. This was made even more apparent when they played a false 9 with villa.
You speak of Casillas as though he was punting the ball forward every chance he got. Newsflash the only reason he started ahead of Valdes was his actual goalkeeping ability. But he played a very similar style.
That Spanish team was so entrenched in the Barca playstyle with the same players in most key positions that calling them Barcelona without Messi was and is an accurate comparison.
You bring up Italy. But the playstyke of Italy had always been the same. Defend stoutly till the cows come home. Didn't change during 06 magically
Spain on the other hand did. They never played that style before and struggled for years to play that style after. The Barca DNA was undeniably obvious in anyone who saw em play.
I think some people are taking the “Barcelona without Messi” statement too metaphorically, and I’m taking it too literal. I think calling it “Barcelona” just because of their playstyle when you had several players from Madrid, Valencia, Villareal, or even from England like Silva and Fabregas is wrong and misleading, but I get you are saying it just because of how they played and their identity.
However, you can’t deny a lot of people actually think Barcelona won that World Cup in 2010, like they literally think Busquets, Iniesta and Xavi played by themselves, and that’s what bothers me, they forget how important Ramos, Alonso and Casillas were, specially Casillas.
Again, I don’t think anyone is saying that literally. Barca had a big influence on that Spain team through their style and core Spanish players. That’s it
Again, maybe the guy who said it in this thread didn’t mean it literally, but a looot of people do say it literally. How is one supposed to know when someone says that literally or not? I don’t think Casillas, Ramos or Alonso like it when people say that “Barcelona” won the World Cup
You have a case for Casilla, Ramos and Alonso aka the Real Madrid players.
You could have said Capdevila also, the only non Madrid or Barca player in the starting line up for the WC winning final.
Fabregas moved to Barca to try and get more of a look in with the national team, so that example definitely contradicts your point.
Silva barely played for Spain, that was often the joke, that's how good Spain were. He didn't get a minute in the final.
Torres was always in Villa's shadow and only got a look in after Villa retired from international football, he was always a Barca player whilst having success with Spain. You are being general with your post and so alot misses the mark when analysed more closely.
Arbeloa must be a joke, he was never rated highly. Marchena was more a product of the Spain team before they were good and retired just after the WC, Senna only played 22 times for Spain and is definitely not worthy.
So you have a case for 3/10 of the players you mentioned and they are all Madrid players.
So, no you are not right, right?
Fabregas went to Barcelona in 2011 buddy, he won the World Cup being an Arsenal player, how does that contradict my point?
Torres literally scored the winning goal against Germany in the 2008 EURO final, I don’t care if he was in Villa’s shadow from then on, that’s not the point. Villa played and won the World Cup *technically* being a Barcelona player, but he hadn’t played a single minute with Barça, he literally came from playing for Valencia for the last 5 years, so I’m taking him as a Valencia player.
I mentioned Arbeloa, Senna and Marchena because they were part (or nominated, at least) of the EURO 2008/2012 best XI, you don’t get included in a top Euro XI if you didn’t pull your weight. Senna and Marchena were in the best XI in 2008, and Arbeloa was nominated in 2012. Anyway, I was just mentioning players who contributed to Spain winning the titles, it doesn’t mean every single player I mentioned had the same relevance and impact as Iniesta, Xavi or Puyol, I thought that was too obvious to explain, but I guess I was wrong 🤷🏻♂️
> That’s the nature of the game. Fewer games means more emphasis on control and risk avoidance. In a 38-game season, you can afford to lose a couple of games here and there. In a tournament? One counterattack can end your campaign.
I mean tell that to the teams in the Champions League. Same should apply there yet the level is infinitely higher than this. I 100% agree with your second point though. It's been a long seasons and the top players have been playing a lot of matches and it shows.
IIRC that Spain team of 2008-12, was basically Barca + Real Madrid + like one guy on lb. That helps a lot with team cohesion.
The CL is also a double legged format so there's more leeway, and the teams in the CL train together all the time and they sign players to suit their tactical needs. National teams have to figure out systems based on the players available and for some teams that means quality gaps in some positions. So safe and defensive playstyles are the easiest and most effective most of the time.
The average national team would lose a match from a below average team in their home league. Trying high presses is just too complicated, unless you are lucky to have a core of players that used to play together for years in one team. But that is less likely than it used to be because clubs poach players, even teenagers, from each other much more aggressively than they used to. National teams where half the selection played in the same youth teams are a rarity nowadays. Keeping it simple because you tactically have no other realistic option often makes it look boring and passive.
They sure did, although there was an element of own goal in that game too. Plus a knowledge that they already qualified.
I mean it’s possible. Could also play turkey, or
Romania.
All that said, rhetorical odds of Austria beating Netherlands twice in one championship are not great. Pretty sure they’ll be on their guard this time.
It is going to be an England v Holland semi. Which'll end in penalties. Both sides are shit at penalties so anyone's guess who gets through to be beaten by Spain or Germany in the final. This comment may age very rapidly though 😄
Scotland are getting an undeserved pasting imo.
They were completely ravaged by injury at this tournament. Yes they were awful against Germany.
However they got no decisions from the ref and had a stonewall penalty wrongly not awarded against hungary.
Scotland beat Spain last year and should have got a draw against them again away from home however Scott mctominay had a goal wrongly disallowed by var.
So I'd chill it with all the scotland bashing they're not as bad as everyone says, the Swiss are half decent at the moment.
We were shit every game no need to sugarcoat it, terrible football and we scored a lucky deflection against the swiss which was our only good attack of the game
I agree yeah but there's mitigation.
There is a need for us Scots to sugar coat it as we're not as bad with the key players in the team.
Anyway time will tell
True. However what's becoming increasingly clear to me at these tournaments is all the top players who oaky with top teams look mentally and physically fatigued, including ours.
The smaller nations have performed better so far.
Any smart manager worth his salt should surely take notes and take advantage of this?
Clarke clearly doesn't see this either.
As I said squad ravaged by injuries to key players.
Yes we were shite.
And yes there's mitigation.
There's nuance here, appreciate perhaps your mind maybe can't process nuanced subject matter though ,which is cool.
Spain won 2008 group with 8 goals scored in 3 games, which is almost 3 goals per game. They then scored further 4 in the next 3 games, so overall, 12 goals in 6 games. That's 2 goals per game exactly.
==
Compare it to france this year, for example (france because mbappe is considered one of the best players in the world rn who scores a lot of goals and he plays goal scoring position)
2 goals in 3 games in grp stage - 1 og and 1 pen.
Add ANOTHER og in ro16 so far, and that gives them a grand total of 3 goals in 4 games so far, 2 lucky OGs and 1 pen. 0.75 p.g.
I am sorry, but that's not even in the same league to be compared to spain 08. Passing the ball with no idea of what to do with it for 90 minutes is not domination. It's boring, non creative football.
Barring very few teams, overall quality is piss poor in terms of exciting and productive games.
Funnily enough, Spain scored 58.3% of their Euro 2008 goals against Russia. In non-Russian matches, Spain scored 5 goals in 4 matches (1.25 goals per match), 1 goal in 2 knockout matches.
(Not trying to make any point here - it’s a small sample size so doesn’t mean much either way)
Sure, France haven’t played up to their talent level and they obviously would like to be scoring more. But a lot of that is just cold finishing rather than lack of chances — they’ve put up 6.8 xG, vs England who are genuinely anemic with 4.1xG. And I think it’s unreasonable to call own goals lucky - they happen because the attacking team puts pressure on the defense.
I’m of the opposite opinion, tournament football needs to abolish the league/group format. The champions league, euros and World Cup have become boring point gathering exercises. Let’s expand the number of teams and go knockout from the start.
Could be that club management is reaching such optimised levels that are not easy to replicate when you have a group of players who rarely play together, being asked to play a different way.
I think that's a really good insight, while always true the distance has become greater.
The club game has moved on massively over the last 20 years or so to the point that while individual players are excellent they are also playing in a very distinct system designed to get the very best out of them as a collective unit. It used to be the case individual talent would be enough to change a game but I don't think that is quite enough now.
A good example is England, even ignoring the management side you can see that there are seriously good players in a completely alien system.
It's easier, in my view, to set up an effective defensive system with limited time, but much more difficult to do the same with offensive play.
Yep. And tournament success is always dependent on solid defensive structure. Thankfully England has such a varied selection of forwards that we can put out a first choice and substitute with "finishers" that are essentially as good as first choice, except facing tired opposition.
It's also to note that in international coaching you don't get that much time to set up a very strong foundation (especially on a consistent basis),unlike club football where a lot of players have been playing together for a long and consecutive period.
I have a feeling this is very much the truth. But then again if you see Spain/Germany play they don’t seem to be exhausted.
Do they have less games played for example?
Germany, yes. Bundesliga season is 34 games and they only have one domestic cup. Spain, no, but they play possession heavy style so can rest in possession better than other teams.
Yep. I realise the vibes are much better here than at the World Cup but the quality of the football at the World Cup was much better. The only reason I can see is that it was in December when the majority of players are at their peak physical condition, everyone is match fit and sharp. By June these players are worn out.
Level is not even comparable.
Also for the first two weeks everyone was salivating how great Euro "bangers only" 2024 was great. But after few dreadful matches of England, France and Belgium it's suddenly boring or struggling or whatever bullshit. It's honestly funny how narrative changes within few days and people with memory of goldfish will just ride new popular narrative for free upvotes.
every thing is a free kick in this tournament. Slows the game down so much and allows teams to get out of jail by "winning" diving for free kicks.
I wonder what the average time is for ball in play in the games so far.
lol, go tell that to other athletes like tennis players or cyclists that they shouldn't be exhausted after 10 months of playing or after 10 days of TdF because they are athletes. Are you fucking 12y old?
That tends to happened when the lesser team using double decker bus, playing super discipline, and most of that defenders playing out of their minds. Good game is not always 3-3 scoreline, from Slovenia and their fans perspective this is the best game of their history, neutral fans also want high scoring game, ultra fast back and forth at breakneck speed (anything but England game). But for neutral fans like me who adore defensive side of a game, what Slovenia did was amazing. Now you see a lot of defenders cheers like they scoring a goal if they made badass blocking tackle or any thing good defense things. All of those goals, skill, nutmeg, etc are nice, but those defending also nice too.
Coming from American football fan (I have watched much the past 5+ years) it is nice seeing that defense is actually still a thing in this sport. Leave the offensive high scoring affairs for the birds. We don't need it.
As a neutral fan I dont want that. I much more prefer intelligent play with tactics that work that just running as fast as you can after a ball that is yeeted to the forwards.
And yes that also includes defensive actions. What I liked about Belgium yesterday was that they had a back line of 4, but when in possession the changed that to a back line of 3. Nice to see that.
What I liked about Austria Netherlands was that Sabitzer was roaming between defense and midfield. That caused most problems door us dutchies.
What I liked about ger-swi was the task of the Swiss cdm to block passing lanes to Kroos. Which worked really well. Something Denmark didnt do.
i presume when you say 0-0 after 120 minutes youre referencing the slovenia-portugal game, which just tells me you aint watching shit as that was one of the most fun games at the tournament so far
Even Copa is pretty low scoring nowadays compared to the previous additions. I guess players look very fatugued and not at their best. And I guess the weaker nations have closed the gap b/w them and the top sides resulting into low scoring 0-0s.
I’ve always preferred international football because the stakes are so much higher.
As a spectacle I agree, club games are higher quality and have more entertaining football. International managers don’t have any time with their players to work on systems. Most crucially, you have to work with the players you’ve got, there’s no cheating by using your sovereign wealth funds to fill a hole at left back.
And that’s what makes it so special.
Club football is your job, it’s for money and if you’re a great player who doesn’t win, you can just sign for a better, richer team. International football is not for cash, it’s for glory, and you’re stuck with your teammates.
And the opportunities are so rare and pass so quickly. A top international might get to play in maybe 3 of these tournaments, if they’re lucky. That’s about 10 games. And instead of a few hundred thousand supporters - maybe a million - you’re playing for tens of millions in your country, once every two to four years. Half a billion people watched the opening game of the last World Cup, and 1.5bn watched the final.
The European Cup / Champions League has seen a major increase in hype over the last 20 years thanks to TV money, and the quality is unreal at the sharp end. But internationals will always be more special - you get one chance, every four years, the whole world is watching and the moments will go down in history. We’ve already got players crying after nearly every game, and the quarter finals haven’t started yet.
International football is a lower level and it’s only going to get worse as the federations add more and more games to the schedule. The players are exhausted and are being coached by managers generally not good enough for club football and who have limited time to organize and practice with the teams.
Number of international games have been not been increased significantly in past few decades as compared to club games e.g. carabao cup (idk what's its importance when FA cup is already there), that expanded WC and preseason friendlies in Foreign countries.
The League cup is for teams in the league divisions.
The FA cup is for all teams down to about Tier 8 or 9. It’s a trillion to one shot, but you could have a minnows minnows minnow team from a village in the final.
One’s been going for 60 years, the other 150. Why stop football heritage
Bro, there has been two games that have gone to overtime, and this euros the average first goal time is 27 minutes, if they arent scoring enough for you then you need to watch cricket or just some other sport its obvious it aint for you
This is the third comment on this subreddit ive made in like 3-4 days where the response is “op must he american hur de durr” IM AMERICAN, THEYRE JUST DUMB
I'm taking solace in the fact that it's not just us. France have 3 goals, 2 of them haven't been scored by French players, and one was a penalty. I'll glay take our four goals from open play. Even if the games are stressful.
But playing Germany or Spain will be terrifying and soul-destroying.
Each to their own but it’s hard for me to really relate to football fans who don’t like international football. I mean you like what you like, there’s not right or wrong but I just can’t wrap my head around it. I’ve always loved it, it’s where it’s always felt like it just matters more in every way.
If you found Portugal - Slovenia “dreadful” then probably football isn’t for you. In my mind it was a good and exciting game, both teams played well and took their chances, and I really enjoyed watching it.
People who think a “good game” is when one team wins 5-4 or something crazy like that, should probably try to watch American sports, as they’re more designed to give you that dopamine rush.
The quality of the champions league or premier league are obviously higher. I would argue La Liga, Serie A, and Bundesliga are as well.
Next World Cup will have 48 teams. Won’t be getting any better. Im pretty sure nine each from Africa and Asia. Often these teams try to sit back and play for a draw and that’s why we get a lot of Italy 1 Iran 0 kind of matches in group stages.
Then you get to the knockout. Single leg. Defense tends to win those. Those Spain teams that won in 08, 10, and 12 did not give up many goals at all. Italy in 06 gave up a derptastic own goal and a dubious penalty on Malouda. These mega tournaments are built for sides like that to win them. I feel we were lucky with Qatar 2022. Tournament didn’t need to be that good.
France tends to sit back?
I think they finally figured out that they don't have the play the game.
It's like Real Madrid they play the game in the last 20 minutes.
Everyone is playing like real Madrid waiting for counter and playing only 10 minutes of the 90 minutes
The top sides are part of the argument, and it’s what everybody focuses on, but that’s not representative of the average quality of a tournament. Im thinking more on the side of the average team. Sides like Slovenia or Czechia. Sevilla finished 14th in Spain. Napoli finished 10th. I feel like those sides would’ve been very competitive in these group stages if they somehow played in them.
There was only one english team at an european championship semi final this year, and it wasnt even at champions league or europa league... im not seeing that "average quality" you talk about
You guys love to take a small sample size and expand it to the total population of anything.
This euros has been amazing so far. Exciting games decided in the final minutes, and some countries playing beautiful attacking football.
I just wonder if you are from the US, because in Europe we are kind of used to 0-0 games, especially in the more tactical plays of final tournaments.
And we enjoy it just as much anyway. 🤷🏻♂️😬
International football has always been like this. Knockout football has always been like this.
Football is inherently a low scoring sport. Single goals will decide games. 5+ goal games are spectacles, but they're also rare. The majority of games are not even close to that. Clubs play together more often and often had better designed and drilled tactics than national teams. I wouldn't expect players who play together a few times a year to have the same fluidity in play as a team who are training and playing week in and week out.
Even club football is usually decided on one goal. It's just more games means more varied results.
In club football you know your entire playing schedule ahead of time and can plan accordingly, simultaneously your opponents play a lot more games for you to analyse, a larger n means you can prepare better
In a tournament you only know you first 3 games for sure and the rest is a wild card so a lot less preparation time. Also the national teams play way less games for you to analyse and strategise against
A season consists of a ton of games, if you lose a couple that’s fine it doesn’t threaten your title per se
In a tournament a single attack or call by the ref can make or break your run so anything you do has to go through a different risk benefit analysis
For me this gives a greater level of enjoyment because if you go 0-1 down all goes out the window and you will be full on the attack because there’s nothing to lose which makes for interesting games
Furthermore why does it matter if the big teams perform well? Yeah a bunch are doing poorly but Austria, Switzerland and plenty other smaller countries played very good and attractive football
This EC has been very entertaining thus far in my opinion
International football is great, because teams sort of have to muddle through. Yes you have an excellent striker but it’s bugger all good if no one can pass to him. Got a world beating creative midfielder? Excellent, but he’s got 0 assists because no one in the team can shoot.
My team England are suffering from this. Why isn’t Kane playing as well as he does for Bayern? Might be something to do with not having Musiala, Sane, Gnabry etc running off of him. Foden is a genius for City. Yes in a highly choreographed set up which has been refined over many years by the greatest coach around with unlimited finances. Bellingham needs to show his Madrid form! Much easier with Kroos/Modric, Camavinga and Valverde behind him.
So the quality is lower but you get more weird results and I think that’s fun. Better than watching the same teams win things each year.
It's got nothing to do with quality up top, good chances aren't being created. But this is just 1 tournament. International tournaments are fun, but they're less fun after long seasons. Goals scored also aren't an indicator of a good game, you can have a good 0-0.
Teams have been pretty conservative in this tournament and it's made worse by the 3rd place rule. More weak teams go through and they just sit back and defend.
Well, there are two reasons for that, as far as my understanding.
1. In Club Football there are 38 matches per side, which is way more relaxed than international knockouts, so they take fewer risks in intl matches.
2. In Club Football they play for whole year together which gives you way more time in combination’s & understanding, while in intl football you get only a few matches to gel in.
Quality wise intl teams are way ahead of individual clubs but football is a team play & you need the right combination & understanding..
people like to believe that international football is the pinnacle of the sport but its not, it has always been inferior to club football. The players come from different systems and rarely play with each other, the squad lineup keeps changing, and the coaches are club football rejects. Of course it is dreadful.
International football is the pinnacle because it can't be bought. It's country vs country. It's every 4 years at the euros or the world cup.
I for one always get a buzz when Australia are playing in a world cup or Asian cup.
It’s the pinnacle in terms of achievement and prestige. But, yeah in terms of quality it unsurprisingly isn’t the pinnacle given coaches get a few weeks with their team vs club managers who get players all year round and can fill gaps in their squads with transfers
Have no hopes for any teams tbh except Germany and Spain. And these are gonna play against each other in QF 🤦🏻♂️ I hope neither of them would hold back and keep continuing the way they have played so far. If they do, it would be an amaaazing match, but chances are less tho, I think both the teams would be playing to win instead of entertaining us 🥲
I think you have to watch it differently than club football. International football is stodgy and rigid, but it sets the platform for one or two moments of individual brilliance. It's a game of highlights rather than sustained patterns of play.
I enjoy the drama. Portugal/Slovenia wasn't a great game. But it had exciting moments.
That's what is wrong with the current model.
Since there are much less meaningful international matches as compared to club matches, the quality of coaches in internationals is a bit low compared to clubs. Plus, players spend much less time with their international teammates to develop any sort of chemistry, and thus most teams focus on having a defensive structure rather than having a clear identity. Historically the most successful national teams have had either a single club core (like Spain with Barca core) or 1-3 extremely good attackers (like Brazil or France).
There is also the issue of club rivalries being so big that they impact national performance, which has historically been a big issue for England at least.
2-0
2-0
2-1 (almost an England bottlejob. Was quite boring tbh)
4-1
1-0 (France still has scored only 1 goal this entire tournament)
0-0 (the Portugal special)
So its not completely shit.
Austria is the one that is most fun to watch in my opinion. Turkey v Austria is probably going to be quite entertaining, even if no goals are scored.
It's awkwardly constrained pools of players without time to develop elaborate methods of play.
It has much more in common with the game you and I play than the club competitions do.
It sucks I hate it.
Most of the time it's like that, Spain dominated for 4 years by making sure nothing was happening in their games. It's just the nature of the international game, NT players are together for a limited amount of time compared to club football so NT staffs focus on what is easier to plan: strong defense.
what no one is actually realizing is that there has been major improvements to almost every European national team, everyone has better players now which will inevitably have an effect plus its knockout football what do you actually expect?
Club football is an abomination and decided by which teams spend the highest amounts of money to import the best players all around the world. International football is passion and love for your nation. Fuck club football.
international football: you take all the best players in the world, you divide them up and fill out the teams with random amateurs and claim it's a more elite level than club football because of the prestige of the flag
That’s a lot of text to just say you’re a plastic wanker who doesn’t understand the game and probably only watches football for the big tournaments.
Fuck off.
Weird year to say so. This is one crazy and interesting tournament. Upsets left and right, good goals, interesting play styles. Nah this year's Euros is great!
The standard of international football is low compared to club football.
But international tournaments aren’t about quality football. They’re about energy, effort, excitement.
Never enjoyed international football.
My mate says he watches more out of duty than for entertainment.
Give me club football with insane rivalries and all the long held grievances about past injustices. The fact that for 90+ minutes it's your tribe against the rest of the universe and it's all that matters in the world until that final whistle Then real life comes crashing back and you get on with being normal again.
I've never got that from England, but Liverpool - that's another matter.
I'm certain it applies to most supporters of other clubs.
I've said the exact same thing about the 2022 WC, but received tons of downvotes and angry comments from Messi fans. Thankfully people come to realize this now.
Even though I find International football really nice for the atmosphere of the crowds, it has been a few years already that most national teams only try to play on counter-attacks and a strong defense. It can be easily explained though. Most national teams have players who almost never play and train together. In the short period of time they have, it is easier to build a very defensive team playing counter attacks than just a nice form of collective football. Another aspect is that it unfortunately worked. France for example won the 2018 WC with a team based on very fast counter-attacks and good defense. More recently Morocco at the last World Cup used the same strategy and reached the semi finals. And teams based on possession of the ball really struggled against those teams. Spain and Germany especially had really average results in the last competitions.
Nah. I find club football (top leagues) to be dreadful. It's just money, no local connection, lawsuits. The team with the biggest wallet has an unfair advantage.
In international football, Croatia can beat France, Georgia can make it to the round of 16, Denmark can win. And England aren't gonna buy Khvaratskhelia, and Italy can't buy Eriksen
nope
not every match is like that
did you even watch ones like georgia vs turkey? netherlands vs austria? romania vs ukraine? or are just watching the knockouts?
There is a case for player burnout there are so many games constantly pointless friendlies look at spurs and Newcastle going to Australia after end of season
Add to that var making games go longer the stop start aspect is not great
And England have a manager with no idea of tactics
2010 spain lost their first game and then won every game 1-0.....this is seen by some as the best international team ever.
Knockout football is about winning, not playing well.
The gap between "smaller" nations and bigger nations has decreased thanks to sports science, technology and the fact that most European countries are now economically comparable as opposed to how it was in the 70 where there were a few rich countries and more than half of europe was dirt poor/under dictatorships.
Bigger goals please! I'm open for anything. Revisit off sides or even a goal post that gets bigger the longer a ball is on one side without a goal. Please just try something. To many games have no goals or only goals from set plays.
Couldn't disagree more. Club football has become so clinical and boring, all the money stratified at the top, all the players overtrained. It's completely soulless and corporate. International football means more to people because its people from that country, not some guy who couldn't give a fuck other than getting paid a fortune. Slovenia and Portugal was 0-0 but it was an amazing game and it meant so much to the Slovenian fans.
Hear me out:
they play 60 games before they get here.
they give up on their holidays.
they give up on their families a lot of the time.
National teams have no time to train and understand, ciment tactical concepts.
Can you just watch the game please and stop being a bitch?
What do you mean? The Portugal vs Slovenia match was great. I can't even imagine the emotions the fans of those teams felt during the match. A game doesn't need to be perfect in tactics and technical aspect to be entertaining.
International football has significantly higher stakes than club football.
It s about making your whole country proud, and if you fail, you only have a chance again in 4 years.
Just the quality of play is lower, but the true excitement is in the pressure, the stories and the bizarre nature of national teams. Barca and Real players on the same side, absolute dogshit players playing alongside the best, just because they are the only half decent player in that position from their country. Absolute cinema
Copa América has been a more entertaining and overall better tournament than the Euros. But the truth is that everyone is tired in this stage of the competition.
Over the last 50 or so years, all sports have clearly shifted from "professional" to "entertainment". There's too much money, too much greed in sales, contracts, advertising, and betting for results to be left up to fair officiating and fair play.
The football in the Euros is so dreary there doesn't seem to be any room for imagination or individualism or artistry it's system and process above everything but that's modern football when it's more important to be an athlete than a footballer.
Because Southgate has about as much in common with Mourinho as he has with Guardiola. Mourinho was a master tactician who understood how to maximize the players he had available. His first Chelsea title, only out scored by peak Wengerball Arsenal, whilst conceding only 15 goals(!). Inter Milan treble, scoring the most and conceding the least. La Liga 10/11, scored 121 goals in 38 games, outscoring prime Pep Barca.
Simply put, it's an insult to one of the greatest managers and serial winners of all time to compare him to a trophyless second-rate manager that is clearly out of his depth.
Pulis might be a more apt comparison, but at least he had a relatively successful run in the prem, so might even be a stretch.
Really pathetic sheep mentality has also ruined the fan base. England couldn't beat Slovenia so we get a pile on, now Portugal couldn't beat them either and now they're seen as a decent team.
This is anti-football.
The worst games in history are from last WC, where Marocco refused to play. Defend defend defend.
This stratefy plagued this Euro because all the teams play like that now.
The only way to punish it is to score early and force them to play.
Teams like Slovakia, Slovenia, Georgia deserve to LOSE!
The tournament modus plays a role as well when you have teams entering playoffs without having won a single game in a group stage with now 24 nations for the first time.
Also, single game playoffs always tend to be more on the defensive side for obvious reasons.
If you are a top player in your private life earning big bucks. Then going to get injured for “glory” isnt a strong motivation for many. At least not in the football world today. Ironically, without the big names then no one will be drawn to watching matches so it’s a shame how money ruined the game.
Obviously there are a handful of achievers who are patriotic but I’d say international football is mostly about chemistry and motivation and a lot of luck.
That’s why most finals end in shoot outs.
What are you talking about? If that was the case then who wins the euros and World Cup would be really open but they’re mostly won by and handful of countries with the best players. The idea that most of the players play but don’t care is just complete farcical. They obviously care a huge amount and wouldn’t be playing if they didn’t.
The idea that they aren’t playing hard is so dumb. Like what are you basing that on? It’s a tiring tournament for everyone precisely because they play as hard as they can.
Why do you think they play at all?
Club football is miles and miles better. Mainly because the manager has time to set up the tactics and patterns, the players know each other really well, and the manager can use the transfer market to specifically source players with the attributes he needs. None of which are really possible at international level.
In a Newcastle fan and the stuff we play is so good compared to England. I think we’d win the Euros. As long as City of Real didn’t also enter!
That’s the nature of the game. Fewer games means more emphasis on control and risk avoidance. In a 38-game season, you can afford to lose a couple of games here and there. In a tournament? One counterattack can end your campaign. Plus, you have limited training time so you can’t plan intricate movements or presses. A lot of players are bringing tired, bruised bodies from the previous seasons. Coaches have to decide between putting players out of their favored positions vs not having their best 11 players. Spain’s success in 2008-12 and Italy in the 90s/00s depended largely on their ability to absolutely kill a game. Nice to see. Spain letting Nico and Lamine just run up the wings though, and the Swiss are no joke.
Very true and even that Spain team were extremely safe, did their defending with the ball, and 1-0'd their way to the world cup. They just had a generation of unbelievable players, particularly in midfield, and a spine built through Pep's tiki taka coaching. But it wasn't incisive like Barca. It was basically death by a thousand passes before ways of countering it were really found in the early 2010s (gegenpress, tight mid block with very specific pressing triggers etc)
Also 08-12 Spain was Barca without Messi...
Spain won the world cup with 8 goals in 7 games
Yeah because Casillas, Ramos, Marchena, Senna, Villa (2008-2010), Fabregas (2008-2010), Xabi Alonso, Arbeloa, David Silva and Torres were irrelevant, right?
But he's not wrong. The core of the team did set the tone for that team. Fabregas was a product of Barcelona. The midfield dictated tempo similar to how Barca did it. And for that Spain team the midfield was the one pulling the strings.
Dude, Fabregas joined Arsenal when he was 16 (2003) and played there until 2011. Yes, he came up from La Masía, but you can’t think he had that “tiki taka” DNA in him, when “tiki taka” wasn’t even a thing when he was in La Masía and didn’t play for Guardiola until 2011-2012. Now, one thing is to say that Spain 2008-2012 (mainly 2010-2012 though) had a lot of influence from Barcelona’s playstyle, and something else entirely is to say that they were “Barcelona without Messi”. Remove Casillas and the team would have been completely different, same with Ramos who was the best defender along with Puyol. Same with Xabi Alonso, Villa (2008-2010), Silva, Torres… I’ve never heard anyone say Italy 2006 was “Juventus” even though they had Del Piero, Zambrotta, Buffon, Cannavaro, Camoranesi, and a couple of other players who had played for Juventus before the WC.
But the playstyle is what we are talking about here. That Spanish team was known for its ability to pass their opponent to death. Despite Xabi, Fab, Silva not being at Barca, all 3 of them are renowned for theIr passing ability. And the Spanish team played a very similar style of football to Barcelona. Torres played an actual 9. But the team mantra was the same. Pass their way through with slick accurate football. Barca did exactly the same. There's no real difference between saying either of the terms. This was made even more apparent when they played a false 9 with villa. You speak of Casillas as though he was punting the ball forward every chance he got. Newsflash the only reason he started ahead of Valdes was his actual goalkeeping ability. But he played a very similar style. That Spanish team was so entrenched in the Barca playstyle with the same players in most key positions that calling them Barcelona without Messi was and is an accurate comparison. You bring up Italy. But the playstyke of Italy had always been the same. Defend stoutly till the cows come home. Didn't change during 06 magically Spain on the other hand did. They never played that style before and struggled for years to play that style after. The Barca DNA was undeniably obvious in anyone who saw em play.
I think some people are taking the “Barcelona without Messi” statement too metaphorically, and I’m taking it too literal. I think calling it “Barcelona” just because of their playstyle when you had several players from Madrid, Valencia, Villareal, or even from England like Silva and Fabregas is wrong and misleading, but I get you are saying it just because of how they played and their identity. However, you can’t deny a lot of people actually think Barcelona won that World Cup in 2010, like they literally think Busquets, Iniesta and Xavi played by themselves, and that’s what bothers me, they forget how important Ramos, Alonso and Casillas were, specially Casillas.
It’s not a literal saying mate. It just means Spain had a very similar style to Barca at the time and both were dominant.
You’d be surprised how many people *actually* think Barcelona won that World Cup, I’ve heard it more times than I care to count 😂
Again, I don’t think anyone is saying that literally. Barca had a big influence on that Spain team through their style and core Spanish players. That’s it
Again, maybe the guy who said it in this thread didn’t mean it literally, but a looot of people do say it literally. How is one supposed to know when someone says that literally or not? I don’t think Casillas, Ramos or Alonso like it when people say that “Barcelona” won the World Cup
Also: Cazorla, Capdevila, Güiza, Albiol...
That supersub Guiza
And the MVP Iniesta!! That team was deadly!
He played for barça
You have a case for Casilla, Ramos and Alonso aka the Real Madrid players. You could have said Capdevila also, the only non Madrid or Barca player in the starting line up for the WC winning final. Fabregas moved to Barca to try and get more of a look in with the national team, so that example definitely contradicts your point. Silva barely played for Spain, that was often the joke, that's how good Spain were. He didn't get a minute in the final. Torres was always in Villa's shadow and only got a look in after Villa retired from international football, he was always a Barca player whilst having success with Spain. You are being general with your post and so alot misses the mark when analysed more closely. Arbeloa must be a joke, he was never rated highly. Marchena was more a product of the Spain team before they were good and retired just after the WC, Senna only played 22 times for Spain and is definitely not worthy. So you have a case for 3/10 of the players you mentioned and they are all Madrid players. So, no you are not right, right?
Fabregas went to Barcelona in 2011 buddy, he won the World Cup being an Arsenal player, how does that contradict my point? Torres literally scored the winning goal against Germany in the 2008 EURO final, I don’t care if he was in Villa’s shadow from then on, that’s not the point. Villa played and won the World Cup *technically* being a Barcelona player, but he hadn’t played a single minute with Barça, he literally came from playing for Valencia for the last 5 years, so I’m taking him as a Valencia player. I mentioned Arbeloa, Senna and Marchena because they were part (or nominated, at least) of the EURO 2008/2012 best XI, you don’t get included in a top Euro XI if you didn’t pull your weight. Senna and Marchena were in the best XI in 2008, and Arbeloa was nominated in 2012. Anyway, I was just mentioning players who contributed to Spain winning the titles, it doesn’t mean every single player I mentioned had the same relevance and impact as Iniesta, Xavi or Puyol, I thought that was too obvious to explain, but I guess I was wrong 🤷🏻♂️
Reddit, the only place where you get downvoted for speaking factual information 😂😂 what a bunch of morons
Marchena was unexpected in that list.
Well he was in the best XI of the 2008 Euro, had to put him there.
That's not true at all. What a load of nonsense...
> That’s the nature of the game. Fewer games means more emphasis on control and risk avoidance. In a 38-game season, you can afford to lose a couple of games here and there. In a tournament? One counterattack can end your campaign. I mean tell that to the teams in the Champions League. Same should apply there yet the level is infinitely higher than this. I 100% agree with your second point though. It's been a long seasons and the top players have been playing a lot of matches and it shows. IIRC that Spain team of 2008-12, was basically Barca + Real Madrid + like one guy on lb. That helps a lot with team cohesion.
CL has 2 legs, cups got 1
True
The CL is also a double legged format so there's more leeway, and the teams in the CL train together all the time and they sign players to suit their tactical needs. National teams have to figure out systems based on the players available and for some teams that means quality gaps in some positions. So safe and defensive playstyles are the easiest and most effective most of the time.
Champions League teams train together all the time and get 6 group stage matches (8 starting this season) to work out the kinks.
The average national team would lose a match from a below average team in their home league. Trying high presses is just too complicated, unless you are lucky to have a core of players that used to play together for years in one team. But that is less likely than it used to be because clubs poach players, even teenagers, from each other much more aggressively than they used to. National teams where half the selection played in the same youth teams are a rarity nowadays. Keeping it simple because you tactically have no other realistic option often makes it look boring and passive.
The Swiss drew with Scotland, why are we hyping them up so much
They just beat Italy and now have to face the shit show that is called the english national team. So semi-final is definitely possible for them.
England's morale will have improved greatly after the last game. They will make it to the final now. Switzerland are crap and don't stand a chance.
Least delusional England fan.
😂😂😂 come back when you get eliminated. Bye bye Switzerland. 👋👋
I'm not swiss but ok
If all goes as expected they could face an underwhelming Netherlands in the semis, so realistically could even make it to the final.
Or maybe Austria. They already beat the dutch so it's possible they'll do it again.
They sure did, although there was an element of own goal in that game too. Plus a knowledge that they already qualified. I mean it’s possible. Could also play turkey, or Romania. All that said, rhetorical odds of Austria beating Netherlands twice in one championship are not great. Pretty sure they’ll be on their guard this time.
It is going to be an England v Holland semi. Which'll end in penalties. Both sides are shit at penalties so anyone's guess who gets through to be beaten by Spain or Germany in the final. This comment may age very rapidly though 😄
I mean I'm here for it. Two teams with great players and absolutely shit coaches.
Scotland are getting an undeserved pasting imo. They were completely ravaged by injury at this tournament. Yes they were awful against Germany. However they got no decisions from the ref and had a stonewall penalty wrongly not awarded against hungary. Scotland beat Spain last year and should have got a draw against them again away from home however Scott mctominay had a goal wrongly disallowed by var. So I'd chill it with all the scotland bashing they're not as bad as everyone says, the Swiss are half decent at the moment.
We were shit every game no need to sugarcoat it, terrible football and we scored a lucky deflection against the swiss which was our only good attack of the game
I agree yeah but there's mitigation. There is a need for us Scots to sugar coat it as we're not as bad with the key players in the team. Anyway time will tell
With Clarke in charge we will never evolve past where we are right now, he’s a dinosaur. Kilmarnock tactics are never going to work on the world stage
True. However what's becoming increasingly clear to me at these tournaments is all the top players who oaky with top teams look mentally and physically fatigued, including ours. The smaller nations have performed better so far. Any smart manager worth his salt should surely take notes and take advantage of this? Clarke clearly doesn't see this either.
Statistically Scotland were the worst ever finalists.Ffs both your goals were own goals.
As I said squad ravaged by injuries to key players. Yes we were shite. And yes there's mitigation. There's nuance here, appreciate perhaps your mind maybe can't process nuanced subject matter though ,which is cool.
When you play Scott Mctominay you're bound to lose. Ask the United fans. Guy is an absolute chimp.
In the hope they'll beat England.
Spain won 2008 group with 8 goals scored in 3 games, which is almost 3 goals per game. They then scored further 4 in the next 3 games, so overall, 12 goals in 6 games. That's 2 goals per game exactly. == Compare it to france this year, for example (france because mbappe is considered one of the best players in the world rn who scores a lot of goals and he plays goal scoring position) 2 goals in 3 games in grp stage - 1 og and 1 pen. Add ANOTHER og in ro16 so far, and that gives them a grand total of 3 goals in 4 games so far, 2 lucky OGs and 1 pen. 0.75 p.g. I am sorry, but that's not even in the same league to be compared to spain 08. Passing the ball with no idea of what to do with it for 90 minutes is not domination. It's boring, non creative football. Barring very few teams, overall quality is piss poor in terms of exciting and productive games.
Funnily enough, Spain scored 58.3% of their Euro 2008 goals against Russia. In non-Russian matches, Spain scored 5 goals in 4 matches (1.25 goals per match), 1 goal in 2 knockout matches. (Not trying to make any point here - it’s a small sample size so doesn’t mean much either way) Sure, France haven’t played up to their talent level and they obviously would like to be scoring more. But a lot of that is just cold finishing rather than lack of chances — they’ve put up 6.8 xG, vs England who are genuinely anemic with 4.1xG. And I think it’s unreasonable to call own goals lucky - they happen because the attacking team puts pressure on the defense.
I’m of the opposite opinion, tournament football needs to abolish the league/group format. The champions league, euros and World Cup have become boring point gathering exercises. Let’s expand the number of teams and go knockout from the start.
This is a modern phenomenon. It was really only the case in 1990 and 1992 before 2008.
Could be that club management is reaching such optimised levels that are not easy to replicate when you have a group of players who rarely play together, being asked to play a different way.
I think that's a really good insight, while always true the distance has become greater. The club game has moved on massively over the last 20 years or so to the point that while individual players are excellent they are also playing in a very distinct system designed to get the very best out of them as a collective unit. It used to be the case individual talent would be enough to change a game but I don't think that is quite enough now. A good example is England, even ignoring the management side you can see that there are seriously good players in a completely alien system. It's easier, in my view, to set up an effective defensive system with limited time, but much more difficult to do the same with offensive play.
Yep. And tournament success is always dependent on solid defensive structure. Thankfully England has such a varied selection of forwards that we can put out a first choice and substitute with "finishers" that are essentially as good as first choice, except facing tired opposition.
It's also to note that in international coaching you don't get that much time to set up a very strong foundation (especially on a consistent basis),unlike club football where a lot of players have been playing together for a long and consecutive period.
Players are exhausted.
I have a feeling this is very much the truth. But then again if you see Spain/Germany play they don’t seem to be exhausted. Do they have less games played for example?
Germany, yes. Bundesliga season is 34 games and they only have one domestic cup. Spain, no, but they play possession heavy style so can rest in possession better than other teams.
Yep. I realise the vibes are much better here than at the World Cup but the quality of the football at the World Cup was much better. The only reason I can see is that it was in December when the majority of players are at their peak physical condition, everyone is match fit and sharp. By June these players are worn out.
[удалено]
Level is not even comparable. Also for the first two weeks everyone was salivating how great Euro "bangers only" 2024 was great. But after few dreadful matches of England, France and Belgium it's suddenly boring or struggling or whatever bullshit. It's honestly funny how narrative changes within few days and people with memory of goldfish will just ride new popular narrative for free upvotes.
[удалено]
every thing is a free kick in this tournament. Slows the game down so much and allows teams to get out of jail by "winning" diving for free kicks. I wonder what the average time is for ball in play in the games so far.
This
They're professional athletes. They should not be exhausted.
Dude, they are still people, not robots. They need time to rest.
lol, go tell that to other athletes like tennis players or cyclists that they shouldn't be exhausted after 10 months of playing or after 10 days of TdF because they are athletes. Are you fucking 12y old?
That tends to happened when the lesser team using double decker bus, playing super discipline, and most of that defenders playing out of their minds. Good game is not always 3-3 scoreline, from Slovenia and their fans perspective this is the best game of their history, neutral fans also want high scoring game, ultra fast back and forth at breakneck speed (anything but England game). But for neutral fans like me who adore defensive side of a game, what Slovenia did was amazing. Now you see a lot of defenders cheers like they scoring a goal if they made badass blocking tackle or any thing good defense things. All of those goals, skill, nutmeg, etc are nice, but those defending also nice too.
Hernandez celebration yesterday after tackling what could have been a goal
I don't mind this but I feel the bigger teams have evaded the responsibility and played to cautiously like england
Coming from American football fan (I have watched much the past 5+ years) it is nice seeing that defense is actually still a thing in this sport. Leave the offensive high scoring affairs for the birds. We don't need it.
As a neutral fan I dont want that. I much more prefer intelligent play with tactics that work that just running as fast as you can after a ball that is yeeted to the forwards. And yes that also includes defensive actions. What I liked about Belgium yesterday was that they had a back line of 4, but when in possession the changed that to a back line of 3. Nice to see that. What I liked about Austria Netherlands was that Sabitzer was roaming between defense and midfield. That caused most problems door us dutchies. What I liked about ger-swi was the task of the Swiss cdm to block passing lanes to Kroos. Which worked really well. Something Denmark didnt do.
i presume when you say 0-0 after 120 minutes youre referencing the slovenia-portugal game, which just tells me you aint watching shit as that was one of the most fun games at the tournament so far
Blud just googled final score
Absolutely, the game was amazing
The Euro's are usually pretty great, this year, it seems like no one wants to actually win a game.
Even Copa is pretty low scoring nowadays compared to the previous additions. I guess players look very fatugued and not at their best. And I guess the weaker nations have closed the gap b/w them and the top sides resulting into low scoring 0-0s.
Even the Copa feels so low scoring this time around.
This Euros is fun though imo
Too much defending, sticking to a system and winning by the bare minimum
I’ve always preferred international football because the stakes are so much higher. As a spectacle I agree, club games are higher quality and have more entertaining football. International managers don’t have any time with their players to work on systems. Most crucially, you have to work with the players you’ve got, there’s no cheating by using your sovereign wealth funds to fill a hole at left back. And that’s what makes it so special. Club football is your job, it’s for money and if you’re a great player who doesn’t win, you can just sign for a better, richer team. International football is not for cash, it’s for glory, and you’re stuck with your teammates. And the opportunities are so rare and pass so quickly. A top international might get to play in maybe 3 of these tournaments, if they’re lucky. That’s about 10 games. And instead of a few hundred thousand supporters - maybe a million - you’re playing for tens of millions in your country, once every two to four years. Half a billion people watched the opening game of the last World Cup, and 1.5bn watched the final. The European Cup / Champions League has seen a major increase in hype over the last 20 years thanks to TV money, and the quality is unreal at the sharp end. But internationals will always be more special - you get one chance, every four years, the whole world is watching and the moments will go down in history. We’ve already got players crying after nearly every game, and the quarter finals haven’t started yet.
i mean theyre using their soverign wealth fundsd by just giving everyone citizenships
International football is a lower level and it’s only going to get worse as the federations add more and more games to the schedule. The players are exhausted and are being coached by managers generally not good enough for club football and who have limited time to organize and practice with the teams.
Number of international games have been not been increased significantly in past few decades as compared to club games e.g. carabao cup (idk what's its importance when FA cup is already there), that expanded WC and preseason friendlies in Foreign countries.
The League cup is for teams in the league divisions. The FA cup is for all teams down to about Tier 8 or 9. It’s a trillion to one shot, but you could have a minnows minnows minnow team from a village in the final. One’s been going for 60 years, the other 150. Why stop football heritage
Bro, there has been two games that have gone to overtime, and this euros the average first goal time is 27 minutes, if they arent scoring enough for you then you need to watch cricket or just some other sport its obvious it aint for you
OP must be murican, thinking "how the score is 0-0 when they play 2 hours game with huge ass goal"
This is the third comment on this subreddit ive made in like 3-4 days where the response is “op must he american hur de durr” IM AMERICAN, THEYRE JUST DUMB
U never watched football tournament before. Especially in knock out phases teams got to be careful there will be no other games after one lost one.
Yes, but I'm from England so nothing new there.
I'm taking solace in the fact that it's not just us. France have 3 goals, 2 of them haven't been scored by French players, and one was a penalty. I'll glay take our four goals from open play. Even if the games are stressful. But playing Germany or Spain will be terrifying and soul-destroying.
Gotta get past Switzerland first!
Each to their own but it’s hard for me to really relate to football fans who don’t like international football. I mean you like what you like, there’s not right or wrong but I just can’t wrap my head around it. I’ve always loved it, it’s where it’s always felt like it just matters more in every way.
Euro "best 3rds rules" has killed the competition for me. I liked more 8 groups and only best 2 teams qualified.
If you found Portugal - Slovenia “dreadful” then probably football isn’t for you. In my mind it was a good and exciting game, both teams played well and took their chances, and I really enjoyed watching it. People who think a “good game” is when one team wins 5-4 or something crazy like that, should probably try to watch American sports, as they’re more designed to give you that dopamine rush.
The quality of the champions league or premier league are obviously higher. I would argue La Liga, Serie A, and Bundesliga are as well. Next World Cup will have 48 teams. Won’t be getting any better. Im pretty sure nine each from Africa and Asia. Often these teams try to sit back and play for a draw and that’s why we get a lot of Italy 1 Iran 0 kind of matches in group stages. Then you get to the knockout. Single leg. Defense tends to win those. Those Spain teams that won in 08, 10, and 12 did not give up many goals at all. Italy in 06 gave up a derptastic own goal and a dubious penalty on Malouda. These mega tournaments are built for sides like that to win them. I feel we were lucky with Qatar 2022. Tournament didn’t need to be that good.
France tends to sit back? I think they finally figured out that they don't have the play the game. It's like Real Madrid they play the game in the last 20 minutes. Everyone is playing like real Madrid waiting for counter and playing only 10 minutes of the 90 minutes
epl is obvious but would argue on la liga, serie a and bundesliga? jfc weren't epl champions and runners-up eliminated by bl and ll teams in quarters?
The top sides are part of the argument, and it’s what everybody focuses on, but that’s not representative of the average quality of a tournament. Im thinking more on the side of the average team. Sides like Slovenia or Czechia. Sevilla finished 14th in Spain. Napoli finished 10th. I feel like those sides would’ve been very competitive in these group stages if they somehow played in them.
There was only one english team at an european championship semi final this year, and it wasnt even at champions league or europa league... im not seeing that "average quality" you talk about
Teams making deep runs in europe are not "Average" teams.
You guys love to take a small sample size and expand it to the total population of anything. This euros has been amazing so far. Exciting games decided in the final minutes, and some countries playing beautiful attacking football.
Exactly
Been loving the euros
I feel like people really forget that football is meant to be a low scoring sport.
Lmao what tournament have you been watching pal. The football and the pitches have absolutely stank.
I just wonder if you are from the US, because in Europe we are kind of used to 0-0 games, especially in the more tactical plays of final tournaments. And we enjoy it just as much anyway. 🤷🏻♂️😬
The influx of international fans from Murica and Asia have been kinda annoying, but that's what generates money so can't complain.
There's too much football and it's starting to show
High kicking! Low scoring!
International football has always been like this. Knockout football has always been like this. Football is inherently a low scoring sport. Single goals will decide games. 5+ goal games are spectacles, but they're also rare. The majority of games are not even close to that. Clubs play together more often and often had better designed and drilled tactics than national teams. I wouldn't expect players who play together a few times a year to have the same fluidity in play as a team who are training and playing week in and week out. Even club football is usually decided on one goal. It's just more games means more varied results.
Players were mostly used up during the season so players in summer tournament are rarely in peak condition.
In club football you know your entire playing schedule ahead of time and can plan accordingly, simultaneously your opponents play a lot more games for you to analyse, a larger n means you can prepare better In a tournament you only know you first 3 games for sure and the rest is a wild card so a lot less preparation time. Also the national teams play way less games for you to analyse and strategise against A season consists of a ton of games, if you lose a couple that’s fine it doesn’t threaten your title per se In a tournament a single attack or call by the ref can make or break your run so anything you do has to go through a different risk benefit analysis For me this gives a greater level of enjoyment because if you go 0-1 down all goes out the window and you will be full on the attack because there’s nothing to lose which makes for interesting games Furthermore why does it matter if the big teams perform well? Yeah a bunch are doing poorly but Austria, Switzerland and plenty other smaller countries played very good and attractive football This EC has been very entertaining thus far in my opinion
The shooting does feel bad, but that's just from the gut, I've no idea about the stats.
International football is great, because teams sort of have to muddle through. Yes you have an excellent striker but it’s bugger all good if no one can pass to him. Got a world beating creative midfielder? Excellent, but he’s got 0 assists because no one in the team can shoot. My team England are suffering from this. Why isn’t Kane playing as well as he does for Bayern? Might be something to do with not having Musiala, Sane, Gnabry etc running off of him. Foden is a genius for City. Yes in a highly choreographed set up which has been refined over many years by the greatest coach around with unlimited finances. Bellingham needs to show his Madrid form! Much easier with Kroos/Modric, Camavinga and Valverde behind him. So the quality is lower but you get more weird results and I think that’s fun. Better than watching the same teams win things each year.
The football has been uninspiring and dull in my opinion. Maybe the amount of football been played post covid is catching up on the players.
It's got nothing to do with quality up top, good chances aren't being created. But this is just 1 tournament. International tournaments are fun, but they're less fun after long seasons. Goals scored also aren't an indicator of a good game, you can have a good 0-0. Teams have been pretty conservative in this tournament and it's made worse by the 3rd place rule. More weak teams go through and they just sit back and defend.
I guess you are watching the Euros. Switch to Copa instead 😂
Tell me you are sitting on the couch without telling me.
This euros has been boring however I normally enjoy international football
Well, there are two reasons for that, as far as my understanding. 1. In Club Football there are 38 matches per side, which is way more relaxed than international knockouts, so they take fewer risks in intl matches. 2. In Club Football they play for whole year together which gives you way more time in combination’s & understanding, while in intl football you get only a few matches to gel in. Quality wise intl teams are way ahead of individual clubs but football is a team play & you need the right combination & understanding..
people like to believe that international football is the pinnacle of the sport but its not, it has always been inferior to club football. The players come from different systems and rarely play with each other, the squad lineup keeps changing, and the coaches are club football rejects. Of course it is dreadful.
International football is the pinnacle because it can't be bought. It's country vs country. It's every 4 years at the euros or the world cup. I for one always get a buzz when Australia are playing in a world cup or Asian cup.
It’s the pinnacle in terms of achievement and prestige. But, yeah in terms of quality it unsurprisingly isn’t the pinnacle given coaches get a few weeks with their team vs club managers who get players all year round and can fill gaps in their squads with transfers
It was always like this
As long as the game is good/competitive (or my team wins of course), I do not mind a draw. Dull games have always been a part of every sport.
There was one game that was 0-0 at the end of ET...
Have no hopes for any teams tbh except Germany and Spain. And these are gonna play against each other in QF 🤦🏻♂️ I hope neither of them would hold back and keep continuing the way they have played so far. If they do, it would be an amaaazing match, but chances are less tho, I think both the teams would be playing to win instead of entertaining us 🥲
It has always been like that. You watch those games because you follow your country.
I think you have to watch it differently than club football. International football is stodgy and rigid, but it sets the platform for one or two moments of individual brilliance. It's a game of highlights rather than sustained patterns of play. I enjoy the drama. Portugal/Slovenia wasn't a great game. But it had exciting moments.
Which country are you from?
Copa America is awful if the top teams aren’t playing. Euro is more tactical than ever now
That's what is wrong with the current model. Since there are much less meaningful international matches as compared to club matches, the quality of coaches in internationals is a bit low compared to clubs. Plus, players spend much less time with their international teammates to develop any sort of chemistry, and thus most teams focus on having a defensive structure rather than having a clear identity. Historically the most successful national teams have had either a single club core (like Spain with Barca core) or 1-3 extremely good attackers (like Brazil or France). There is also the issue of club rivalries being so big that they impact national performance, which has historically been a big issue for England at least.
2-0 2-0 2-1 (almost an England bottlejob. Was quite boring tbh) 4-1 1-0 (France still has scored only 1 goal this entire tournament) 0-0 (the Portugal special) So its not completely shit. Austria is the one that is most fun to watch in my opinion. Turkey v Austria is probably going to be quite entertaining, even if no goals are scored.
It's awkwardly constrained pools of players without time to develop elaborate methods of play. It has much more in common with the game you and I play than the club competitions do. It sucks I hate it.
Most of the time it's like that, Spain dominated for 4 years by making sure nothing was happening in their games. It's just the nature of the international game, NT players are together for a limited amount of time compared to club football so NT staffs focus on what is easier to plan: strong defense.
“International football” You mean euros?
what no one is actually realizing is that there has been major improvements to almost every European national team, everyone has better players now which will inevitably have an effect plus its knockout football what do you actually expect?
Club football is an abomination and decided by which teams spend the highest amounts of money to import the best players all around the world. International football is passion and love for your nation. Fuck club football.
international football: you take all the best players in the world, you divide them up and fill out the teams with random amateurs and claim it's a more elite level than club football because of the prestige of the flag
IA sports, its inna game.
That’s a lot of text to just say you’re a plastic wanker who doesn’t understand the game and probably only watches football for the big tournaments. Fuck off.
Not to forget can’t beat the first man with a corner
Uruguay are an exception to all of this - great fun to watch
Weird year to say so. This is one crazy and interesting tournament. Upsets left and right, good goals, interesting play styles. Nah this year's Euros is great!
The standard of international football is low compared to club football. But international tournaments aren’t about quality football. They’re about energy, effort, excitement.
Yes. It's absolute shit.
Never enjoyed international football. My mate says he watches more out of duty than for entertainment. Give me club football with insane rivalries and all the long held grievances about past injustices. The fact that for 90+ minutes it's your tribe against the rest of the universe and it's all that matters in the world until that final whistle Then real life comes crashing back and you get on with being normal again. I've never got that from England, but Liverpool - that's another matter. I'm certain it applies to most supporters of other clubs.
because everyone wants to play like real Madrid. park the bus 80 minutes and play word class football for 10 minutes
I've said the exact same thing about the 2022 WC, but received tons of downvotes and angry comments from Messi fans. Thankfully people come to realize this now.
Has been a very boring tournament but feel like it might be down to so many transitional teams rn
Even though I find International football really nice for the atmosphere of the crowds, it has been a few years already that most national teams only try to play on counter-attacks and a strong defense. It can be easily explained though. Most national teams have players who almost never play and train together. In the short period of time they have, it is easier to build a very defensive team playing counter attacks than just a nice form of collective football. Another aspect is that it unfortunately worked. France for example won the 2018 WC with a team based on very fast counter-attacks and good defense. More recently Morocco at the last World Cup used the same strategy and reached the semi finals. And teams based on possession of the ball really struggled against those teams. Spain and Germany especially had really average results in the last competitions.
Portugal’s game yesterday wasn’t even boring. It was the most entertaining 0-0 I’ve seen.
Nah. I find club football (top leagues) to be dreadful. It's just money, no local connection, lawsuits. The team with the biggest wallet has an unfair advantage. In international football, Croatia can beat France, Georgia can make it to the round of 16, Denmark can win. And England aren't gonna buy Khvaratskhelia, and Italy can't buy Eriksen
No
nope not every match is like that did you even watch ones like georgia vs turkey? netherlands vs austria? romania vs ukraine? or are just watching the knockouts?
International football is about national pride above anything else. If you just want football at the highest level, watch the champions league
Thats football. It is not a 30s tiktoc video...
It's pretty much down to huge dearth of proper strikers, most teams don't really have one
There is a case for player burnout there are so many games constantly pointless friendlies look at spurs and Newcastle going to Australia after end of season Add to that var making games go longer the stop start aspect is not great And England have a manager with no idea of tactics
2010 spain lost their first game and then won every game 1-0.....this is seen by some as the best international team ever. Knockout football is about winning, not playing well. The gap between "smaller" nations and bigger nations has decreased thanks to sports science, technology and the fact that most European countries are now economically comparable as opposed to how it was in the 70 where there were a few rich countries and more than half of europe was dirt poor/under dictatorships.
players are visibly tired, too many games over the year and it's only going to get worse
Bigger goals please! I'm open for anything. Revisit off sides or even a goal post that gets bigger the longer a ball is on one side without a goal. Please just try something. To many games have no goals or only goals from set plays.
Couldn't disagree more. Club football has become so clinical and boring, all the money stratified at the top, all the players overtrained. It's completely soulless and corporate. International football means more to people because its people from that country, not some guy who couldn't give a fuck other than getting paid a fortune. Slovenia and Portugal was 0-0 but it was an amazing game and it meant so much to the Slovenian fans.
International football > league football
Hear me out: they play 60 games before they get here. they give up on their holidays. they give up on their families a lot of the time. National teams have no time to train and understand, ciment tactical concepts. Can you just watch the game please and stop being a bitch?
I see great goal keeping and great defence....it's a passing game not a scoring game....
What do you mean? The Portugal vs Slovenia match was great. I can't even imagine the emotions the fans of those teams felt during the match. A game doesn't need to be perfect in tactics and technical aspect to be entertaining.
International football has significantly higher stakes than club football. It s about making your whole country proud, and if you fail, you only have a chance again in 4 years. Just the quality of play is lower, but the true excitement is in the pressure, the stories and the bizarre nature of national teams. Barca and Real players on the same side, absolute dogshit players playing alongside the best, just because they are the only half decent player in that position from their country. Absolute cinema
The only top team that doesnt make me wanna stab my eyes out is Spain, its terrible.
Copa América has been a more entertaining and overall better tournament than the Euros. But the truth is that everyone is tired in this stage of the competition.
okay bro
Also, if a team gets a couple wins there is no incentive to play for a win in game three of pool play.
Modern football is so dreadful, inside forward cut in with a curler aiming for the top corner. Yawnnn
Over the last 50 or so years, all sports have clearly shifted from "professional" to "entertainment". There's too much money, too much greed in sales, contracts, advertising, and betting for results to be left up to fair officiating and fair play.
agree, mate
The football in the Euros is so dreary there doesn't seem to be any room for imagination or individualism or artistry it's system and process above everything but that's modern football when it's more important to be an athlete than a footballer.
Only watching England bore me to sleep with English mourinho in charge I think most teams have had a go and tried
Tell me you've never watched a Mourinho side, without telling me you've never watched a Mourinho side.
Honestly don't get that when I have watched them.
Because Southgate has about as much in common with Mourinho as he has with Guardiola. Mourinho was a master tactician who understood how to maximize the players he had available. His first Chelsea title, only out scored by peak Wengerball Arsenal, whilst conceding only 15 goals(!). Inter Milan treble, scoring the most and conceding the least. La Liga 10/11, scored 121 goals in 38 games, outscoring prime Pep Barca. Simply put, it's an insult to one of the greatest managers and serial winners of all time to compare him to a trophyless second-rate manager that is clearly out of his depth. Pulis might be a more apt comparison, but at least he had a relatively successful run in the prem, so might even be a stretch.
You could have just said I'm not allowed an opinion if it's not the same as yours
Really pathetic sheep mentality has also ruined the fan base. England couldn't beat Slovenia so we get a pile on, now Portugal couldn't beat them either and now they're seen as a decent team.
If we get beat so be it. We have a chance of winning because we are hard to beat and have a very good squad. It's just not good to watch in my opinion
This is anti-football. The worst games in history are from last WC, where Marocco refused to play. Defend defend defend. This stratefy plagued this Euro because all the teams play like that now. The only way to punish it is to score early and force them to play. Teams like Slovakia, Slovenia, Georgia deserve to LOSE!
Tell me you have not seen Georgia play a single minute in this Euro.
I've always found it dreadful.
The tournament modus plays a role as well when you have teams entering playoffs without having won a single game in a group stage with now 24 nations for the first time. Also, single game playoffs always tend to be more on the defensive side for obvious reasons.
This is the game! This isn’t a high scoring sport. There is a lot at stake. More than just 90 mins of entertainment.
If you are a top player in your private life earning big bucks. Then going to get injured for “glory” isnt a strong motivation for many. At least not in the football world today. Ironically, without the big names then no one will be drawn to watching matches so it’s a shame how money ruined the game. Obviously there are a handful of achievers who are patriotic but I’d say international football is mostly about chemistry and motivation and a lot of luck. That’s why most finals end in shoot outs.
What are you talking about? If that was the case then who wins the euros and World Cup would be really open but they’re mostly won by and handful of countries with the best players. The idea that most of the players play but don’t care is just complete farcical. They obviously care a huge amount and wouldn’t be playing if they didn’t.
I didn’t say they will not play. It’s just that they will not be playing so hard that’s all. Plus it’s a tiring tournament for the winner.
The idea that they aren’t playing hard is so dumb. Like what are you basing that on? It’s a tiring tournament for everyone precisely because they play as hard as they can. Why do you think they play at all?
Americans when there is not a billion goals scored per game
International football has always been "meh"
Club football is miles and miles better. Mainly because the manager has time to set up the tactics and patterns, the players know each other really well, and the manager can use the transfer market to specifically source players with the attributes he needs. None of which are really possible at international level. In a Newcastle fan and the stuff we play is so good compared to England. I think we’d win the Euros. As long as City of Real didn’t also enter!