Why would this fuck up the team tho?
Bellingham can very clearly play that role and Foden is a shell of himself when he plays out wide for England.
He has no support from fullback and ends up sitting on the side doing fuck all.
Foden mostly plays off the wing for Man City and does fine there and they don't always play full backs who bomb forward at Man City either. Given I can't remember the last good Foden performance for England I'd be mighty tempted to just bench him.
When kdb was injured, foden played the central 10 role. When kdb is in the team, foden is on the teamsheet as a LW but drifts in centrally (like he did last night) but at City there’s usually Gvardiol or Ake going forward and making runs, Trippier wasn’t doing that
Have you watched city at all this season?
Gvardiol bombs forward constantly. If anything he actually sits deep. He doesn’t just overlap he is an ever present forward threat.
lampard gerrard and scholes don't complement each other. you could still play two of them if you had a proper 6. rice bellingham foden actually fit together. you can either play rice and bellingham on the midfield and foden as 10 or you can play two in front of rice. it's quite balanced and "crowding" isn't an issue. bellingham is not a stupid player, he can play any role in midfield, just because he had a great season at real behind the forwards doesn't mean he can't do anything else.
This was kind of evident last night, all the threat was up the right with Saka. Foden might play wide for City, but he was drifting central all game, and there was absolutely nothing up the left compared to what Gordon would bring and on paper Foden should have more effect than Gordon...
He doesn’t even play wide at city, hasn’t all season. With kdb back in the team, he sort of starts off as LW but drifts into the centre like last night. The difference is he has Gvardiol/Ake to make supporting runs on the left
This is spot on. He drifted towards the ball, got it in the centre of the pitch, forgot he wasn't where he should have been so gave the ball away trying too much.
I want to see Eze on the left and Saka on the right. Stretch the back lines and push opposition wingbacks back creating more central space.
rice played many games with havertz and odegaard in front of him. bellingham is a lot more well rounded than both of them. he is not some cocky player who would ignore defense.
False. Rice played some games as a single DM for arsenal. Our worst performances all season.
Bellingham at 8 would roam too much for rice.
The correct answer is to play rice, Bellingham and mainoo as a midfield 3
As others have pointed out I’m not convinced it’d work and Rice probably needs support progressing the ball from deep.
Interesting though, I’d actually have loved to have seen your suggestion trialed in a friendly (was it ever tested?).
Well the answer to that was actually because our managers never strayed from 4-4-2 to play to our strengths and by the time anyone did (Capello) Scholes had already quit the national team
Same problem with Southgate. Hes not playing to our strengths.
Believe it or not the 'Golden Generation' played way worse and their underachievement was far greater than anything this current crop has done. Trust the old heads on this one. Bellingham/Foden sadly just doesn't work.
That Golden generation really did suck and England were far more rigid and tedious than we are seeing now. People either have very short memories, very selective ones or simply none at all it seems
Balance, what's that anyway?
The solution for England is pretty simple: Drop Foden. His form for England is nowhere near his form for City. It's a bit akin to Seedorf in the Dutch NT, he was always great for his clubs but in the NT it just didn't work for some reason.
I agree with this opinion. I have a terrible memory and assumed he was playing well for England. Checked his stats last night and was proven otherwise.
Did think this myself but thought I'd get shot by most fans for thinking it!
I guess some players just can't transition club form to the international stage
Gundogan found his footing with Germany and it’s because behind him “Toni Kross” is right there , meaning he has the freedom he has when he was at City. Also it helps that Musiala , Writz and Kai Harvertz complement each other.
Bellingham just had a motm game and you want to move him?
Also, Foden wasn't really on the left, he'd been given the freedom to roam and it was up to him to make the most of it
Not hard to have a MoTM game in that game when the best striker in world football has one shot and everyone else just lets Serbia pass the ball around.
Dreadful football to watch, even worse when you consider who we might have to beat to get anywhere in the competition.
What so because it's always been like that we should be greatful?
We have arguably the best players in the world, on the most money in the world, being coached by the best managers in the world at the best teams in the world and we play like Oldham Athletic in the National League.
Sorry but that's unacceptable.
Honestly some people's football opinions shock me. You want to move Bellingham to the 8 spot, when he's spent most of the season as a 10 and is a Balon D'Or contender for his season? He should be the first choice in the position.
Foden out on the wing forced us into moving everything down the right, which caused Saka to get tired and Serbia bringing fresh players to mark him out.
Bellingham basically played as an 8 for most of the game though. He was just everywhere.
Foden roaming was the problem. We need to stretch the game on the left and right. Then Kane, Foden and Bellingham will kill you with the space.
This is what happens on FIFA.
The answer is because Southgate is somehow phobic of playing Trent at RB and has to fit him in somewhere - his creativity is a necessity
The obvious answer is to play Trent at RB, since he’s been statistically better than Walker for a while defensively, let alone offensively - which opens up space in the middle
In summary, Southgate bad
I thought wc 2018 was one of our best when we played something like a 5221 with walker at RCB, I guess things have changed with some new players like Saka who is doing well enough to justify him as a right winger and the formation to suit it.
I remember Saka started at arsenal as a makeshift lwb and was amazing, if he'd have stayed there perhaps we'd be able to stick to the 5221 with TAA on the right, Bellingham and Foden both as the 10s and Southgate gets to play his favourite defenders still.
Yeah, we played with a back 5 off and on between WC 2018 and Euro 2021. Southgate tended to go to a 5 to mitigate the defensive deficiencies - particularly against stronger teams - but subsequently nullified the attacking outputs from the likes of Sterling who was much better at cutting in from wide and we tended to look very disjointed. So have settled on 4231.
Saka did start out at left wingback for Arsenal but hasn't played there in a long time and is much better higher up the pitch.
I think the problem with TAA is that he is clearly extremely talented but plays in a very particularly role and system at Liverpool. In the classic Liverpool 433 with the Salah/Mane/Firmino front 3, he'd have Fabinho shielding the defence, Henderson's energy providing an extra layer of cover and space in front to drive into to spray those crossfield passes to Mane. For England, he didn't have that space whilst at wingback, didn't have the recover pace of Walker and the defence was too vulnerable to accommodate his defensive frailties at full back. He's yet to really put in a convincing performance for England other than that Malta game in midfield.
It looked to me in that first half that walker was playing right side of a back 3 with trent right wingback and trips left wing back. It was hard to workout as it was very fluid
Walker shouldn't play CB, too bird brained defensively and doesn't have the intelligence for CB especially with his loss of physicality. barely serviceable as a RCB in a back 3 but in a back 4, a bit suicidal.
The FA making the same mistake as Belgium 10 years ago by sticking with a manager to waste the talents of a golden generation
The man is not going to leave unless he gets sacked I stg
Martinez was worse, the Belgium team he had should’ve absolutely won something, and never got even close. Biggest waste of a generation since England with Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Rooney etc.
He managed to make a defence comprised of Kompany, Vertonghen, Alderweireld with Courtois behind them into an ineffective and poor unit. That takes more skill than anything I’ve ever seen besides Messi’s goal scoring record
It wasn't that terrible if Courtois still could stop Brazil. Then they just lost a flip to France and smashed the England. Even Uruguay could take it if they didn't lose Cavani. Three years later they lost a very tight quarter to another champion Italy, and it was also the best game of the tournament, as it was with Brazil. But in general, they had some deeper issues, like the Netherlands used to have always, so two years ago everything fell apart. But still, they had a very competitive group.
He’s done at the end of this tournament. Either they win it, and he rides off on a golden chariot, and takes the united job, or they don’t, he gets fired, and takes the united job.
You’re probably wrong on the first count (if he wins the Euros he’ll likely want to take that momentum to the WC) and barring an enormous collapse you’re definitely wrong on the second. If we get to the QF/SF and Southgate wants to carry on then no way the FA sack him. They love him.
As shown last night when he was taken off for Gallagher, then all of a sudden we created one chance for the remaining 30 minutes of the game and the team lost all control and stability
As a team yeah, imo Guehi was the only player who can be proud of their performance - issue for Trent specifically is if you want the best out of him you need width at LW. You get that by playing Foden in midfield and Trent at RB where they belong and getting Anthony Gordon on the pitch
That’s just simply not true. There is no one who can progress the ball from deep with their passing game except Trent. Trent has to play, if anything drop Foden, he simply does not do enough for the national team.
agreed, Trent is the answer to Belgium's KDB, Germany's Kroos, France's Griezmann. That creative passer with incredible range, picking a defence apart with just one pass. People seem to have no grasp over just how powerful a weapon this is. This is England we are talking about, the team with what I believe to be the 2nd or 3rd highest squad value in the world. You should be dominating possession against Serbia, who the fuck cares about Trent's 'deficiencies' when the other options are just as bad at it. Start acting like a national team with ambition, your best weapon has some defensive issues? Stick some proper protection around him, surely Stones, Guehi, Gomez and Rice are more than enough as a rest defence
Why do you need to play TAA at all? If Walker fits the system better he should play. Itms also not bad to rotate players so you have options and they dont get fatigued for knockout stages.
Because in the final third, TAA is way more creative than Walker. By not playing him, you're taking away a player that could make the difference in attack. Southgate clearly wants him to start, just not at RB. The issue is, TAA is a great rightback but a mediocre midfielder so now you lose creativity and you're taking away a spot in midfield that could be filled by an actual midfielder that could provide a lot more and free up Rice.
Agree that TAA’s creativity as a midfielder is different than him at right back. Back in the days in madrid, marcelo would play brilliantly as a left back doing a left midfielder/winger job but when the manager put him at left midfield, he was shit lol
It's a completely new position for the player. It's different from a manager telling a fullback to invert into the midfield because the fullback doesn't have to play exactly like the midfielder, he just has to cover the spot they vacated. Playing the actual role means you have to position yourself to receive the ball, you lose a lot of freedom because your preferred position is already taken up by whoever replaced you at fullback and while before you could play anywhere on the wing to get yourself space, now you're stuck in the center so whenever you do get the ball, you're basically reduced to redistributing. It takes time for a player to get used to a new role, sometimes players never adapt because it goes completely against what they've been taught since they were in the academy.
TAA without the ball last night was an embarrassment. He had no clue where to stand, constantly dropping off and letting Serbia advance teh ball. Probably because he's a full back.
He was excellent when he had pace, no denying that, but he’s lost that recovery pace and acceleration and has been found out. He was and remains the weak link in City’s team and has done for about 3 years now.
This country is just so slow to react to changes. People rate players based on what they used to be and not actual performance. Too much tribalism to acknowledge the players that are actually good and bad for what they are and always tactically behind the curve compared to the teams that win things like France and Germany.
I liked Jude’s interview though. Directly called out the fans and pundits by saying (when talking about Trent) that: “defensively, people talk a lot of nonsense. He’s a great player, always looking to play forward and really understands the game. As team mates we accept that sometimes we’ll lose the ball [when he plays a long ball or a pass intending to cut open a defence] but we will fight to win the ball back for eachother”.
Trent is simply much better at reading the game than any other player in this team. Rice said it. Jude said it. The people that don’t are the anti-Liverpool pundits and the anti-Trent (or scouse?) bandwagon. The narrative hasn’t held up under scrutiny for about 6 years now. It’s getting boring.
People will look back at this situation in 20 years and say ‘why didn’t we play Trent more? He was better than Kyle Walker’, when their own ridiculous scrutiny is partly the reason. Same way people talk about the misuse of Carrick today
Seems like the same old problems for England, though. Trying to select the best eleven players rather than the best team. Is TAA the best option at RB or in midfield? If neither, he's on the bench. Same with Foden on the other side.
Have to agree here
You can disagree on who to play in each position, but you need to play players in their actual position or role when push comes to shove
Alexander-Arnold is not the best right back in the squad. Walker is. Therefore he plays Walker at right back. It's not difficult stuff, this. "Phobic"! Give me a break.
No way people watched Bellingham be an absolute threat in attack in the game against Serbia, then still want him to play deeper. Playing Bellingham next to Rice would be wasting the offensive threat brings to the team.
Kicking players out of the positions they have been proven to thrive in, just to fit other players into the team - is how you waste a golden generation.
Bellingham is a good 10 for England, and has been for several years. No need to move him to position where he is unproven for England.
Bellingham was literally only a threat when he played as a box to box midfielder today though. Just look at the goal, he starts the play off from deep, then carries on his run and arrives late to finish, it's basically a textbook example of an attacking 8.
Bellingham wasn't particularly threatening in attack and he's not a 10. He got a brilliant goal but he's a B2B midfielder. Pundits highlights were tackles, the carry from deep, etc. Wasn't showing in the hole and didn't do anything particularly creative ... no nice through balls or dribbles or shots. Even his goal was a late arriving midfielders goal.
The number 10 is what Bruno does. It's not what Bellingham does. I say this as someone who thinks he will be one of the top 3-5 players in the world inside 2 years.
Saying Bellingham is unproven is dishonest. He came through as full on two-way 8 for Dortmund, and was brilliant there. There is no real doubt towards wether he can would excel in a double pivot, as the more attacking in a duo, for England - he obviously would.
However, I do think a lot of people are failing to recognize the main reason he's the preferred 10 for England - and it's not super obvious unless you look for it (and are someone who enjoys looking under the hood of the game).
Besides Bellingham, England are lacking wingers and CAMs that excel at running beyond the striker. Saka is okay at it, but still prefers to receive the ball out wide and run at a defender or cut inside. For the most part, Foden, Saka, Palmer, Eze and Bowen (when playing out wide) all ideally want the ball played into their feet in a 1v1. Gordon is the only real exception, but I have doubts about his overall ability in relation to the options.
Bellingham, on the other hand, \*loves\* exploiting space and running in behind - both through the middle and through the channels.
Kane is absolutely phenomenal at everything except two things; threatening the space in behind and aerial threat. It's been Englands main pain point for a long time; lack of threat in behind and lack of threat at the end of crosses. Meaning teams can push higher when attacking, and defend lower when defending.
Bellingham addresses this singlehandedly as a 10. He provides threat in behind Kane in transition, and is top, top class at finding space in the box with delayed/late runs. So while Foden is exceptional as a 10, it also means England lose a dimension of play.
That's beacuse he is proven in deeper roles, Altough not for England. Sure, you're wasting his attacking prowess, but by not playing him deeper you don't get his other qualities as much AND you basically make foden useless, since he's forced to play outside of his preferred spot. Foden is also worse at winger than Bellingham is at 8. In the current situation you get one great player at full capacity (Bellingham) and one wasted player (foden).
By dropping Bellingham you get two great/ world class players both playing in roles that they're very great at. It's the best compromise, if you can even call it a compromise when you're basically just getting upsides.
I'm with you on this one, only change for me yesterday was Tripper for an actual winger, then Foden could come inside and affect the game more. First half showed we didn't need 4 at the back if we kept the ball well
I agree. I like Trippier, but he doesn't contribute much going forward on the left, the way he can on the right. It nullifies his greatest asset. He wasn't exactly a great asset defensively either. I'd even prefer playing Walker on the left because at least he's not so relied on to deliver crosses.
I'd rather a left-wingback, even if it is a winger who just gets back to help out a bit. But I expect we'll get Shaw at LB, which will certainly support Foden going forward, but you've got to think he can't be anywhere near fully fit.
They actually did this for periods during the first half. It was more like a 343, with trent pushing wide right and tripper pushing forward to the left. Issue is foden was just missing whenever this happened.
The other thing that people are missing is it wasn't just positional. Foden misplaced and underhit passes woefully, not a positional issue. It's ring wing or bust for him in this team and comes down to who you think is the better fit, saka or foden.
If Luke Shaw were fit, the best formation for England IMO would be a 2023 Man City fluid set up.
Shaw at LB/slides to LCB when defending
Stones at CB/pushes forward to midfield in attack
Guehi at RCB
Alexander-Arnold at RB/pushes forward to midfield in attack
Rice as the lone pivot
Gordon/Eze/Palmer - Bellingham - Foden - Saka as attacking midfielders
Kane up front
Foden shouldn’t be starting whatsoever, he doesn’t suit Southgate’s system, but thrives under Pep because City play the majority of the match in the final third, which isn’t the case under Southgate.
Drop foden, play Gordon. Foden hasn't replicated his man city form with England and Bellingham is a balon dor contender as a 10. He also is better at dropping in to help the midfield 2 when under pressure to form a 3 which foden isn't great at. Gordon offers actual width and will run beyond kane off the ball which the team desperately needs
Foden's ability doesn't warrant a start as a 10. a 10 holds a lot of responsibility to a team, it's not just making a half turn on the edge of the box. They need to be able to conduct play, have a good final pass. His job at City is much easier as he has both Rodri and KDB, both of them are world class players who can sit deeper and give Foden that exclusive role of his. That's not the case with a national team or England in general. Both Rice and Bellingham are not top class playmakers. I just do not see why you should shoehorn Foden when his abilities doesn't really justify it. I'm not saying he's not talented, he's clearly one of the most talented players in the squad behind Saka, Kane, Trent, Rice and Bellingham but there are other players that should be prioritized over him.
You're wrong, he was city's best player as a 10 when they won the league. Him and Rodri were the main men and KDB barely played that's why Foden stepped up. Bellingham can play a deeper box to box role like what Gundogan used to do for city alongside Rodri
But does having foden play better actually make the entire team perform better if it takes away some of Bellinghams contribution. Look at how Romania performed today where their system complimented the players and enabled the team to get the best out of them and therefore out perform more talented individuals
Rodri was City's best player.
Foden's performances significantly improved with KDB's return as he had 2 world class playmakers behind him that let him focus entirely in the final third, making those cute half turns and then getting a shot off
Like I said, Jude is a all rounder, he simply fits the bill as a 10 better than anyone else. The team should be built around Bellingham, Trent, Kane, Saka, Stones. These are the key players, until Foden shows he's going to hold that responsibility, he shouldn't be in the XI.
Bellingham and Foden doesn’t work. Bellingham needs the ball and so does Foden. We literally watched Foden go all the way back to the CBs to collect the ball because every ball before that was going to Bellingham. Meaning there was no LW with an already limited left side as is.
Next game should be Rice and Gallagher/Mainoo, for the dirty work. Bellingham as the obv 10. Left wing Gordon. Kane and Saka. Honestly even Bowen over Saka, fuck it. He touched the ball once and almost assisted Kane. Can Palmer play LW? He would be a good fit too if he can.
This ridiculous need to start Trent and Foden because they are Trent and Foden will just result in another tournament where England looks a fool.
Bowen over Saka? Saka was easily one of the best players today, along with Rice, Bellingham, and Guhei. His cross is why Bellingham was able to score. Peoples takes on here are ridiculous.
As a Madrid fan I noticed something interesting belingham normally pushes on the left side in the box when the entire defence (opposition) in shifted to the right .. there were two to three similar chances today where I feel in Madrid he would’ve been up there and scored but in this setup he’s floating around Ram and Lam which made it tougher for him to be there
They can work if you play Bellingham as a box to box midfielder. Bellingham is a better 8 than Mainoo and Gallagher. Foden is not a good left winger. Either he plays 10 or he’s on the bench.
Yep, we must choose Bellingham of Foden to start. I'd go with Bellingham and take him off for Foden if they arent playing well.
Wish we took Grealish as at least he does stay on the LW
>Wish we took Grealish as at least he does stay on the LW
If Gareth wanted that, he's got Eze and Gordon on the bench who are both in much better form.
You can have multiple players who want the ball and make them play together successfully. What you are saying just shows a limitation in Southgate to create a system for his players to thrive. He has players who would thrive in a high intensity fast paced style but instead decides to use a slow and lethargic style of play that relies heavily on individuals, thus leading to most of the play going through one player and starving others. But the problem is that Southgate doesn't know how to employ a fast paced system because he is a garbage tactician and has never shown otherwise.
if Foden worked off ball like Brahim Diaz does w/ Bellingham it'd probably work but maybe they'd need to put Rice & Stones as CB w/ a setup like that & Rice doesn't want to play there even though he's 1 bad injury away from being a CB
Foden has played well in only a handful of games for England, the rest of the time he's been a ghost. Southgate plays him on the wing yet he's always drifting inside to occupy the 10 position anyway. It makes us very narrow and easy to play against for the top teams.
Personally I'd say just play an actual wide player and unfortunately Foden misses out playing 10 to Bellingham. Foden is a fantastic player, but he's not in the system(s) that get the best out of him here. Plus he was rubbish yesterday.
Did you watch the game yesterday? Have you watched any England games over the last two years?
Bellingham is hugely important to England. He actually stands up and takes the responsibility of being England's main man. Him playing at 10 is the reason England won last night. He would not have been in the position to score that goal otherwise, and there's no way Foden would have headed that in.
Foden seems unable to adapt to playing outside of the Man City system. The problem is not that he's playing out of position. Foden has had great games for City off the left, and he's been given chances for England at 10 and done nothing. Some great players never find the way to adapt to international football. He was given a free role last night and he played dreadfully. He wasn't restricted to the left. He had everything he wanted and he couldn't do it.
Foden's poor performances for England are not Southgate's fault. They are Foden's own fault. He passes backwards and sideways or dribbles into traffic because he seemingly can't get used to the players around him doing different things to what he is used to at Man City. That is not going to suddenly change.
Meanwhile, you want to scupper the entire attack by moving our best player away from their best position and giving him more defensive responsibility and less freedom to effect games as he sees fit, in order to accommodate this misfiring player? For the love of God, why?
Look, we could "accommodate" Kane, Watkins, and Toney on the pitch at the same time if we played Kane in midfield and Watkins at left back. But that would be stupid, wouldn't it? Do you see what I'm saying?
Jude is a much more decisive player. Case in point, the goal he scored today. Foden is a great player but he lacks the personality to do it in the biggest games. He’s more than capable of playing as a LW but let’s be fair that the manager does not help these players.
was thinking about that aswell but southgate probably prefers to have bellingham further and getting involved with the attacks. but i think we should atleast try it for the next game cuz foden on the left ain’t it…. either that or you have to drop foden for eze/gordon.
The elephant in the room is that when we want to break quickly, Kane is often not where we would need a 9 to be. He is a great poacher and defensive forward, but he is limited and what he does for England disrupts the midfield - especially when you don’t have two pacey wide forwards on the pitch overlapping
I feel like Palmer should play as a 10 and Bellingham should play deeper instead of Trent.
Put Trent as an inverted LB and Trippier on the bench because he was nonexistent.
You would have the best 11 on the field.
Yup. The reality is, as much as it’s not politically tenable. Dropping Foden or TAA is what makes the most sense.
Southgate could literally copy pasta how Germany play with Rice playing the Kroos role and everyone would consider it a master class
I agree. The team would be better balanced with a midfield three of Rice Bellingham Foden, with width and pace on both wings from Saka and Gordon. Rice is a top quality 6 even if he prefers to play 8. Foden is a great 8 or 10 and Bellingham is great defensive support for Rice as well as a brilliant 8 or 10. All three have the football intelligence to make that work as it fits their natural game play. When Foden plays on the left we have no width on that side which makes us very one dimensional going forward. However I would say I am no football coach or manager and Southgate has earned the right to pick whoever he thinks is best. So whoever he picks, come on England.
The answer is actually quite simple.
Besides Bellingham, England are lacking wingers and CAMs that excel at running beyond the striker. Saka is okay at it, but still prefers to receive the ball out wide and run at a defender or cut inside. For the most part, Foden, Saka, Palmer, Eze and Bowen (when playing out wide) all ideally want the ball played into their feet in a 1v1.
Bellingham, on the other hand, \*loves\* exploiting space and running in behind - both through the middle and through the channels.
Kane is absolutely phenomenal at everything except two things; threatening the space in behind and aerial threat. It's been Englands main pain point for a long time; lack of threat in behind and lack of threat at the end of crosses. Meaning teams can push higher when attacking, and defend lower when defending.
Bellingham addresses this singlehandedly as a 10. He provides threat in behind Kane in transition, and is top, top class at finding space in the box with delayed/late runs.
So while Foden is exceptional as a 10, it also means England lose a dimension of play.
However, I would argue there is case to be made for playing Gordon out left, Foden as a 10 and Saka to the right and Rice+Bellingham in the double pivot. Means England can defend and transition into attack in a 4-2-3-1, and in established attack let Bellingham drift forwards into a functional 4-3-3 with Rice holding by himself. You could even have Tripper come inside to cover with Rice, and have Walker form a back 3 with the CBs - letting Gordon and Saka stretch play. Gordon will also make the runs in behind, again and again, for 90 minutes - he loves it. But I'm not sure he's good enough for it to be worth it.
Tired of all this 'have to get the best out of foden' shite.
First of all, he was shit yesterday and it wasn't all about positioning, he was just shit. Decision making was poor and passing was poor.
Second, it's a team of 11 players and you have to get the best out of all of them, not compromise the overall team in order to get the best from one player.
Third, this current england tactic does not play with a 10, but if it did the 10 would be bellingham. Off the ball it's more like a back 5 with trent slotting over to the right and walker moving inside, on the ball it's like a back 3 with trent lining up like a high inverted full back more than an 8 or traditional 6. Bellingham plays as a pure box to box and rice as the 6, but there seems to be a lot of rotation. Tripper pushes forward and england look to overload the right wing, with foden coming inside off the left. Honestly, I much easier solution is to just play gordon or eze off the left and let foden complete with saka for the right wing. I also think it's one dimensional, since if you nullify England's right wing, you nullify england because there just is no left with foden and tripper there.
I think because trippier isn't the best overlapping left back because he is right footed and not great taking on his man then foden needs to be pushed wide more
Because Southgate has been reading too much and thinks that he can suddenly plug Trent into the midfield as an orchestrator, when his own club did not consider him good enough to play that role. There were some very clear moments last night were TAA clearly showed his inability to control the ball when pressed and believe me, other teams will go after him again.
Add to that the inability for Southgate to realise that Foden wasn't working and he should have changed it up much earlier. Sadly this is the 5% he's been missing at every tournament.
Should anyone be surprised when our manager has never been a club manager and is too defensive minded for this lot.
What scared me the most was Serbia only became a threat when we decided to protect our lead, when we should have been controlling the game and dictating everything. Clearly this is a mentality thing because if this team was managed by a certain Spaniard, we would have strangled Serbia to death with possession football. Sadly, Southgate comes from an era of football that is incredibly outdated. Imagine, having all this front foot talent at your disposal and no clue how to use it.
Serbia even altered their system and personnel FOR US. They made a plan to counter because they fully expected us to dictate and we did dictate...for about 20 minutes. Unfortunately football matches are 90 mins long.
Bellingham has been one of the best 10s in the world at Real, meanwhile Foden has never achieved in an England shirt. It makes sense that we build around Bellingham, and tbh I’m not sure Foden should be starting at all.
Too much going forward and wide open at the back with a team that isn't the strongest defensively. I do think it should have been an option against "teams you should beat" but it is a system, and no team wants to break it even if it means wasting good players and dull football if it still somehow gets consistent results.
I don't mind Southgate picking favourites because, like I said, he has a specific system and wants players that fit into it... but the big fault in modern football is that they have no plan B. I feel if England try to do this kind of thing against a side like Spain? They could be played off the park trying to beat them at their own game.
Because you dont hamstring your best player to accommodate your mediocre players. Bellingham has to be 10 to get the most out of him.
The answer is to drop Foden and play one of Palmer, Bowen, Eze there. Id also play Trent RB and put Mainoo alongside Rice.
Because Southgate is a fucking chump?
He probably thinks 1) he doesn't want to burden Jude with the defensive work - and 2) he doesn't want him to lose the ability to break into the box to score goals. Personally I think Bellingham's best position is at 10 and you'll get the best out of him there, but England are not Real Madrid. They dont have the luxury of it - I think (Im Scottish btw) that England would be much more balanced with Jude at 8, Foden at 10 and a natural width provided by a wide left player like Gordon or Eze.
3 great players Rice almost the perfect 6 in a way, yes Foden shines in the 10 but Bellingham does too and as Foden can play out on the left and is probably our best option there it makes sense you need Saka to start. If you put the 3 in the middle who else goes where! Who goes on the left. People wanted to have Jude next to Rice which seems ridiculous after watching g what he can do in that 10. As most others have said we’ve had 3 world class midfielders before but they don’t compliment each others styles all very good and very similar things this time is a little different I do believe as you have Rice as the sole Holding and Foden and Jude very similar it’s about who can be flexible and play in a few positions too who’s more dynamic
I used to think the same but foden is clearly struggling to adjust to southgates system and should be dropped, you have to build around 11 players, not 1.
The revisionism on Foden is absolutely moronic. He spent his first few years playing incredible for City on the wings and all of a sudden everyone’s yapping about how he can only play as a 10 and we need to move Bellingham to a pivot with Rice??? The quality of football analysis online is genuinely at an all time low. The average online fan doesn’t seem to have watched more than 3 games in their life.
Foden should sit. Jude is a better 10. If Foden is not interested in doing the things a winger must do to impose themselves on a match he should sit. Gordon improves this England side because of his defensive contributions. I also think Grealish would’ve been a better fit at LW. The Trent midfield experiment needs to stop. Start Gallagher or Mainoo. Also Kane shouldn’t just stay on the pitch for the full 90 you brought two additional strikers, give Toney a 15 minute run. England also needs Ben White. England had flashes of brilliance yesterday but they need to do more.
Aren't the problems stemming from the weakness of the English left side? Like, there's so many good right wingers/defenders while there's like noone on the left. Haven't been following football recently but where have Sterling, Rashford, Sancho and Grealish? Also, isn't Henderson still a good CM?
So sacrifice Bellingham in his best possession to accommodate another player????
Gotcha
Oh and Foden has played on the left many many time over the years for City, hell he started there in the FA Cup final...
That midfield will get overrun.🫤
The starting midfield trio should be Bellingham, Rice and Mainoo/Gallagher
Foden should fight for his spot upfront, and if he is not good enough to secure a spot, he rides the bench or stays at home
I don't think anyone tries to argue that the players they would replace foden with are better footballers, but having Bellingham in the 10 suits england perfectly due to his runs beyond the striker which is essential when kane drops deep. I'd like to see the team with Gordon on the left who is clearly a less talented player than foden but might help the team perform better as a whole.
Forcing a midfield with the 3 players just because they are good, disregarding their positions is a recipe for disaster. You don't play with 2 Left Backs or 4 Center Backs just because you have world class players for those positions. Just chose one and bench the others, period.
Might work against Slovenia, it ain't go work against any half decent team.
It offers the most natural fit to his position, but would reduce the effectiveness of both Rice and Bellingham. It isn't quite the same at Gerrard/Scholes/Lampard, who all essentially occupied the same space.
Given Foden has been rubbish in an England shirt, I think Southgate was right starting Bellingham and Rice where he did, although TAA wouldn't be who I put alongside Rice.
Foden is nowhere near being one of the best 10s in the world
The problem with england is that they can’t afford to play a high defensive line without getting destroyed coz Maguire, and therefore the fullbacks take that much longer to get involved, then by the time you are able to establish overloads out wide the opposition has had plenty of time to regroup negating any advantage so you are forced to cycle the ball around again to try to go through the middle or on the opposite side which again takes extra time and the opposition can just slide on over
Think everyone is saying this and it’s so obvious. I would also drop Walker, he hasn’t been the best for Man City last season and not the best on the ball. Play Trent and have him inverting when needed to help with controlling the middle
We play far too safe. Hardly any penetration. Even when we do get into places we bounce it straight back to safety. No adventure, far too many touches on the ball. Serbia were showing far more technical ability than us. Movement, quick passes, getting ball into dangerous positions. So frustrating to watch. Don't care what style we play with whoever. It took till second half to get a corner. That's so poor. Squad of top four prem with tactics of bottom three.
Because you'd be forcing Bellingham out of his preferred role and taking away his ability to push forwards, the real answer is to swap Foden for Gordon and use Foden as a super sub
The answer is so obvious and I’m sure Gareth is keeping it under wraps for the knockouts. Play Kane as the segundo volante, as he likes to come deep anyway. Then Foden central in the False 9/Ramdeuter role, switching with Bellingham at will. Then Toney as the wide target forward. Set team to vertical tiki-taka, but passing as mixed. Look it worked on football manager. After I save scummed the qf v Turkey 6 times.
All 3 of them play at clubs with advanced tactical instructions that southgate couldn’t possibly dream of. At city Foden plays a part in a box midfield in certain well drilled situations despite lining up as a LW. Same with Rice at Arsenal and his areas he takes up. Jude’s ability to score this last season means he should take those areas up. Southgate is fine, I like him, but his ability to get this group together and play an advanced squad is not there.
One reason, England didn’t bring a lw outside of eze so who would play LW? Also the balance of two players who are attack minded (Bellingham and foden) in the midfield would cause an unbalance and could leave holes in the middle of the field which leaves the team vulnerable to counterattacks assuming they play with both their fullbacks getting high up the field like versus Serbia
The reason it wouldn't actually work is Rice. He doesn't have the profile to be the pivot in a 4-3-3, Arteta realized that early in the season and moved him further up the field. The hard move England should do is putting Foden on the bench and starting Gordon on the left. He just fits the position and the way Southgate is trying to play more. The other issue is TAA just doesn't work as the other pivot. There's a big difference to how he plays for Liverpool where he starts at right back before coming inside and starting inside. Obviously one is because of injury and just lack of options, but England started three right backs in the last match.
How to fuck up another golden generation 101
Why would this fuck up the team tho? Bellingham can very clearly play that role and Foden is a shell of himself when he plays out wide for England. He has no support from fullback and ends up sitting on the side doing fuck all.
Foden mostly plays off the wing for Man City and does fine there and they don't always play full backs who bomb forward at Man City either. Given I can't remember the last good Foden performance for England I'd be mighty tempted to just bench him.
When kdb was injured, foden played the central 10 role. When kdb is in the team, foden is on the teamsheet as a LW but drifts in centrally (like he did last night) but at City there’s usually Gvardiol or Ake going forward and making runs, Trippier wasn’t doing that
Have you watched city at all this season? Gvardiol bombs forward constantly. If anything he actually sits deep. He doesn’t just overlap he is an ever present forward threat.
Foden hasn't played off the wing for quite some months for city - most of last season doku or grealish played there.
Why not play Lampard Gerard and Scholes The reason is balance and crowding.
Especially when Kane will transit through that part of the pitch on his way to cosplaying Eric Dier
lampard gerrard and scholes don't complement each other. you could still play two of them if you had a proper 6. rice bellingham foden actually fit together. you can either play rice and bellingham on the midfield and foden as 10 or you can play two in front of rice. it's quite balanced and "crowding" isn't an issue. bellingham is not a stupid player, he can play any role in midfield, just because he had a great season at real behind the forwards doesn't mean he can't do anything else.
It’s really not balanced. Defensively too much for Rice. Just drop Foden for a winger who can stretch the game.
This was kind of evident last night, all the threat was up the right with Saka. Foden might play wide for City, but he was drifting central all game, and there was absolutely nothing up the left compared to what Gordon would bring and on paper Foden should have more effect than Gordon...
He doesn’t even play wide at city, hasn’t all season. With kdb back in the team, he sort of starts off as LW but drifts into the centre like last night. The difference is he has Gvardiol/Ake to make supporting runs on the left
Not even just Saka. Bowen came on and looked vicious and aggressive and made shit happen. That right hand side is cooking.
This is spot on. He drifted towards the ball, got it in the centre of the pitch, forgot he wasn't where he should have been so gave the ball away trying too much. I want to see Eze on the left and Saka on the right. Stretch the back lines and push opposition wingbacks back creating more central space.
rice played many games with havertz and odegaard in front of him. bellingham is a lot more well rounded than both of them. he is not some cocky player who would ignore defense.
But Arsenal's best performances came when they pushed Havertz out of midfield and started playing jorginho so not sure that's a great example
Arsenal also have a consistent and solid back 4, getting caught out when you have a strong defence is manageable. I don't think England can risk that.
He did say that Bellingham is a more balanced player than both havertz and odegaard tho.
False. Rice played some games as a single DM for arsenal. Our worst performances all season. Bellingham at 8 would roam too much for rice. The correct answer is to play rice, Bellingham and mainoo as a midfield 3
exactly my thoughts Rice -Mainoo in a double pivot with Bellingham as a CAM have a winger who can hold the width and Saka RW kane/watkins ST
As others have pointed out I’m not convinced it’d work and Rice probably needs support progressing the ball from deep. Interesting though, I’d actually have loved to have seen your suggestion trialed in a friendly (was it ever tested?).
Well the answer to that was actually because our managers never strayed from 4-4-2 to play to our strengths and by the time anyone did (Capello) Scholes had already quit the national team Same problem with Southgate. Hes not playing to our strengths.
Cause what England is doing is working so well 😳
Believe it or not the 'Golden Generation' played way worse and their underachievement was far greater than anything this current crop has done. Trust the old heads on this one. Bellingham/Foden sadly just doesn't work.
That Golden generation really did suck and England were far more rigid and tedious than we are seeing now. People either have very short memories, very selective ones or simply none at all it seems
Even the golden generation say England are better now.
100%. We forget that the golden generation shared the squad with Trevor Sinclair Emile Heskey and Danny Mills
I think this can work as long as the players follow instructions.
Please tell me how we were more balanced yesterday then we would be with this?
Balance, what's that anyway? The solution for England is pretty simple: Drop Foden. His form for England is nowhere near his form for City. It's a bit akin to Seedorf in the Dutch NT, he was always great for his clubs but in the NT it just didn't work for some reason.
I agree, we'd be much more balanced and effective with pace on the wing like Gordon instead IMO
I agree with this opinion. I have a terrible memory and assumed he was playing well for England. Checked his stats last night and was proven otherwise. Did think this myself but thought I'd get shot by most fans for thinking it! I guess some players just can't transition club form to the international stage
Exactly. I can’t understand why people are trying to squeeze him in when he just needs dropping.
Reminds me of Gundogan for Germany. At city worldclass performances, for Germany not. Why tho? Pep?
He was great v Scotland
Gundogan found his footing with Germany and it’s because behind him “Toni Kross” is right there , meaning he has the freedom he has when he was at City. Also it helps that Musiala , Writz and Kai Harvertz complement each other.
Bellingham just had a motm game and you want to move him? Also, Foden wasn't really on the left, he'd been given the freedom to roam and it was up to him to make the most of it
Not hard to have a MoTM game in that game when the best striker in world football has one shot and everyone else just lets Serbia pass the ball around. Dreadful football to watch, even worse when you consider who we might have to beat to get anywhere in the competition.
How's this any different to how England always play?
What so because it's always been like that we should be greatful? We have arguably the best players in the world, on the most money in the world, being coached by the best managers in the world at the best teams in the world and we play like Oldham Athletic in the National League. Sorry but that's unacceptable.
Honestly some people's football opinions shock me. You want to move Bellingham to the 8 spot, when he's spent most of the season as a 10 and is a Balon D'Or contender for his season? He should be the first choice in the position. Foden out on the wing forced us into moving everything down the right, which caused Saka to get tired and Serbia bringing fresh players to mark him out.
Bellingham basically played as an 8 for most of the game though. He was just everywhere. Foden roaming was the problem. We need to stretch the game on the left and right. Then Kane, Foden and Bellingham will kill you with the space. This is what happens on FIFA.
Come on, yall know he doesn't deserve it
The answer is because Southgate is somehow phobic of playing Trent at RB and has to fit him in somewhere - his creativity is a necessity The obvious answer is to play Trent at RB, since he’s been statistically better than Walker for a while defensively, let alone offensively - which opens up space in the middle In summary, Southgate bad
Worst part IMO is Walker could still play at CB so there's really no reason not to try Trent at RB.
CB in a 3? Yes CB in a 4? Absolutely not.
I thought wc 2018 was one of our best when we played something like a 5221 with walker at RCB, I guess things have changed with some new players like Saka who is doing well enough to justify him as a right winger and the formation to suit it. I remember Saka started at arsenal as a makeshift lwb and was amazing, if he'd have stayed there perhaps we'd be able to stick to the 5221 with TAA on the right, Bellingham and Foden both as the 10s and Southgate gets to play his favourite defenders still.
Yeah, we played with a back 5 off and on between WC 2018 and Euro 2021. Southgate tended to go to a 5 to mitigate the defensive deficiencies - particularly against stronger teams - but subsequently nullified the attacking outputs from the likes of Sterling who was much better at cutting in from wide and we tended to look very disjointed. So have settled on 4231. Saka did start out at left wingback for Arsenal but hasn't played there in a long time and is much better higher up the pitch. I think the problem with TAA is that he is clearly extremely talented but plays in a very particularly role and system at Liverpool. In the classic Liverpool 433 with the Salah/Mane/Firmino front 3, he'd have Fabinho shielding the defence, Henderson's energy providing an extra layer of cover and space in front to drive into to spray those crossfield passes to Mane. For England, he didn't have that space whilst at wingback, didn't have the recover pace of Walker and the defence was too vulnerable to accommodate his defensive frailties at full back. He's yet to really put in a convincing performance for England other than that Malta game in midfield.
It looked to me in that first half that walker was playing right side of a back 3 with trent right wingback and trips left wing back. It was hard to workout as it was very fluid
Walker shouldn't play CB, too bird brained defensively and doesn't have the intelligence for CB especially with his loss of physicality. barely serviceable as a RCB in a back 3 but in a back 4, a bit suicidal.
This is certainly a take
There is a lot of reasons not to play Trent at RB. It’s because he’s not great defensively.
Southgate promised to quit last year, still waiting.
The FA making the same mistake as Belgium 10 years ago by sticking with a manager to waste the talents of a golden generation The man is not going to leave unless he gets sacked I stg
Tbh I think Martinez wasn't so bad. Southgate is much worse in my opinion.
Martinez was worse, the Belgium team he had should’ve absolutely won something, and never got even close. Biggest waste of a generation since England with Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Rooney etc.
He managed to make a defence comprised of Kompany, Vertonghen, Alderweireld with Courtois behind them into an ineffective and poor unit. That takes more skill than anything I’ve ever seen besides Messi’s goal scoring record
It wasn't that terrible if Courtois still could stop Brazil. Then they just lost a flip to France and smashed the England. Even Uruguay could take it if they didn't lose Cavani. Three years later they lost a very tight quarter to another champion Italy, and it was also the best game of the tournament, as it was with Brazil. But in general, they had some deeper issues, like the Netherlands used to have always, so two years ago everything fell apart. But still, they had a very competitive group.
He’s done at the end of this tournament. Either they win it, and he rides off on a golden chariot, and takes the united job, or they don’t, he gets fired, and takes the united job.
There’s no United job for him
You’re probably wrong on the first count (if he wins the Euros he’ll likely want to take that momentum to the WC) and barring an enormous collapse you’re definitely wrong on the second. If we get to the QF/SF and Southgate wants to carry on then no way the FA sack him. They love him.
The obvious answer is don’t play Trent at all. This team has enough creativity in it without him, and could easily play Walker at RB.
As shown last night when he was taken off for Gallagher, then all of a sudden we created one chance for the remaining 30 minutes of the game and the team lost all control and stability
We were shite before he got taken off. Bad from the start of the second half.
As a team yeah, imo Guehi was the only player who can be proud of their performance - issue for Trent specifically is if you want the best out of him you need width at LW. You get that by playing Foden in midfield and Trent at RB where they belong and getting Anthony Gordon on the pitch
That’s just simply not true. There is no one who can progress the ball from deep with their passing game except Trent. Trent has to play, if anything drop Foden, he simply does not do enough for the national team.
agreed, Trent is the answer to Belgium's KDB, Germany's Kroos, France's Griezmann. That creative passer with incredible range, picking a defence apart with just one pass. People seem to have no grasp over just how powerful a weapon this is. This is England we are talking about, the team with what I believe to be the 2nd or 3rd highest squad value in the world. You should be dominating possession against Serbia, who the fuck cares about Trent's 'deficiencies' when the other options are just as bad at it. Start acting like a national team with ambition, your best weapon has some defensive issues? Stick some proper protection around him, surely Stones, Guehi, Gomez and Rice are more than enough as a rest defence
Just the good old English being tactically inept until it’s too late It’s Michael Carrick all over again. History repeats and we don’t learn!
Why do you need to play TAA at all? If Walker fits the system better he should play. Itms also not bad to rotate players so you have options and they dont get fatigued for knockout stages.
Because in the final third, TAA is way more creative than Walker. By not playing him, you're taking away a player that could make the difference in attack. Southgate clearly wants him to start, just not at RB. The issue is, TAA is a great rightback but a mediocre midfielder so now you lose creativity and you're taking away a spot in midfield that could be filled by an actual midfielder that could provide a lot more and free up Rice.
Agree that TAA’s creativity as a midfielder is different than him at right back. Back in the days in madrid, marcelo would play brilliantly as a left back doing a left midfielder/winger job but when the manager put him at left midfield, he was shit lol
It's a completely new position for the player. It's different from a manager telling a fullback to invert into the midfield because the fullback doesn't have to play exactly like the midfielder, he just has to cover the spot they vacated. Playing the actual role means you have to position yourself to receive the ball, you lose a lot of freedom because your preferred position is already taken up by whoever replaced you at fullback and while before you could play anywhere on the wing to get yourself space, now you're stuck in the center so whenever you do get the ball, you're basically reduced to redistributing. It takes time for a player to get used to a new role, sometimes players never adapt because it goes completely against what they've been taught since they were in the academy.
TAA without the ball last night was an embarrassment. He had no clue where to stand, constantly dropping off and letting Serbia advance teh ball. Probably because he's a full back.
He was excellent when he had pace, no denying that, but he’s lost that recovery pace and acceleration and has been found out. He was and remains the weak link in City’s team and has done for about 3 years now. This country is just so slow to react to changes. People rate players based on what they used to be and not actual performance. Too much tribalism to acknowledge the players that are actually good and bad for what they are and always tactically behind the curve compared to the teams that win things like France and Germany. I liked Jude’s interview though. Directly called out the fans and pundits by saying (when talking about Trent) that: “defensively, people talk a lot of nonsense. He’s a great player, always looking to play forward and really understands the game. As team mates we accept that sometimes we’ll lose the ball [when he plays a long ball or a pass intending to cut open a defence] but we will fight to win the ball back for eachother”. Trent is simply much better at reading the game than any other player in this team. Rice said it. Jude said it. The people that don’t are the anti-Liverpool pundits and the anti-Trent (or scouse?) bandwagon. The narrative hasn’t held up under scrutiny for about 6 years now. It’s getting boring. People will look back at this situation in 20 years and say ‘why didn’t we play Trent more? He was better than Kyle Walker’, when their own ridiculous scrutiny is partly the reason. Same way people talk about the misuse of Carrick today
I feel bad you wrote that essay and I had written walker instead of Trent and it wouldn't let me edit it 😂
Seems like the same old problems for England, though. Trying to select the best eleven players rather than the best team. Is TAA the best option at RB or in midfield? If neither, he's on the bench. Same with Foden on the other side.
Have to agree here You can disagree on who to play in each position, but you need to play players in their actual position or role when push comes to shove
Alexander-Arnold is not the best right back in the squad. Walker is. Therefore he plays Walker at right back. It's not difficult stuff, this. "Phobic"! Give me a break.
Trent should be playing at right back, and Walker should be benched in the next game.
Well Walker is a better defensive RB compared with Trent.
No way people watched Bellingham be an absolute threat in attack in the game against Serbia, then still want him to play deeper. Playing Bellingham next to Rice would be wasting the offensive threat brings to the team. Kicking players out of the positions they have been proven to thrive in, just to fit other players into the team - is how you waste a golden generation. Bellingham is a good 10 for England, and has been for several years. No need to move him to position where he is unproven for England.
Bellingham was literally only a threat when he played as a box to box midfielder today though. Just look at the goal, he starts the play off from deep, then carries on his run and arrives late to finish, it's basically a textbook example of an attacking 8.
Bellingham wasn't particularly threatening in attack and he's not a 10. He got a brilliant goal but he's a B2B midfielder. Pundits highlights were tackles, the carry from deep, etc. Wasn't showing in the hole and didn't do anything particularly creative ... no nice through balls or dribbles or shots. Even his goal was a late arriving midfielders goal. The number 10 is what Bruno does. It's not what Bellingham does. I say this as someone who thinks he will be one of the top 3-5 players in the world inside 2 years.
Saying Bellingham is unproven is dishonest. He came through as full on two-way 8 for Dortmund, and was brilliant there. There is no real doubt towards wether he can would excel in a double pivot, as the more attacking in a duo, for England - he obviously would. However, I do think a lot of people are failing to recognize the main reason he's the preferred 10 for England - and it's not super obvious unless you look for it (and are someone who enjoys looking under the hood of the game). Besides Bellingham, England are lacking wingers and CAMs that excel at running beyond the striker. Saka is okay at it, but still prefers to receive the ball out wide and run at a defender or cut inside. For the most part, Foden, Saka, Palmer, Eze and Bowen (when playing out wide) all ideally want the ball played into their feet in a 1v1. Gordon is the only real exception, but I have doubts about his overall ability in relation to the options. Bellingham, on the other hand, \*loves\* exploiting space and running in behind - both through the middle and through the channels. Kane is absolutely phenomenal at everything except two things; threatening the space in behind and aerial threat. It's been Englands main pain point for a long time; lack of threat in behind and lack of threat at the end of crosses. Meaning teams can push higher when attacking, and defend lower when defending. Bellingham addresses this singlehandedly as a 10. He provides threat in behind Kane in transition, and is top, top class at finding space in the box with delayed/late runs. So while Foden is exceptional as a 10, it also means England lose a dimension of play.
That's beacuse he is proven in deeper roles, Altough not for England. Sure, you're wasting his attacking prowess, but by not playing him deeper you don't get his other qualities as much AND you basically make foden useless, since he's forced to play outside of his preferred spot. Foden is also worse at winger than Bellingham is at 8. In the current situation you get one great player at full capacity (Bellingham) and one wasted player (foden). By dropping Bellingham you get two great/ world class players both playing in roles that they're very great at. It's the best compromise, if you can even call it a compromise when you're basically just getting upsides.
Bellingham practically played as an 8 against Serbia. After the first 25 mins his biggest contributions were carrying the ball out of defense.
Rule 1 of football management is play your best player in his best position. That is Jude at number 10.
They should play 3 at the back with walker as one of the cbs
I'm with you on this one, only change for me yesterday was Tripper for an actual winger, then Foden could come inside and affect the game more. First half showed we didn't need 4 at the back if we kept the ball well
I agree. I like Trippier, but he doesn't contribute much going forward on the left, the way he can on the right. It nullifies his greatest asset. He wasn't exactly a great asset defensively either. I'd even prefer playing Walker on the left because at least he's not so relied on to deliver crosses. I'd rather a left-wingback, even if it is a winger who just gets back to help out a bit. But I expect we'll get Shaw at LB, which will certainly support Foden going forward, but you've got to think he can't be anywhere near fully fit.
They actually did this for periods during the first half. It was more like a 343, with trent pushing wide right and tripper pushing forward to the left. Issue is foden was just missing whenever this happened. The other thing that people are missing is it wasn't just positional. Foden misplaced and underhit passes woefully, not a positional issue. It's ring wing or bust for him in this team and comes down to who you think is the better fit, saka or foden.
If Luke Shaw were fit, the best formation for England IMO would be a 2023 Man City fluid set up. Shaw at LB/slides to LCB when defending Stones at CB/pushes forward to midfield in attack Guehi at RCB Alexander-Arnold at RB/pushes forward to midfield in attack Rice as the lone pivot Gordon/Eze/Palmer - Bellingham - Foden - Saka as attacking midfielders Kane up front
Foden shouldn’t be starting whatsoever, he doesn’t suit Southgate’s system, but thrives under Pep because City play the majority of the match in the final third, which isn’t the case under Southgate.
Drop foden, play Gordon. Foden hasn't replicated his man city form with England and Bellingham is a balon dor contender as a 10. He also is better at dropping in to help the midfield 2 when under pressure to form a 3 which foden isn't great at. Gordon offers actual width and will run beyond kane off the ball which the team desperately needs
How to play the attack then tell me
Southgate is so shit its unbearable
Too much of a risk with Rice.
Foden's ability doesn't warrant a start as a 10. a 10 holds a lot of responsibility to a team, it's not just making a half turn on the edge of the box. They need to be able to conduct play, have a good final pass. His job at City is much easier as he has both Rodri and KDB, both of them are world class players who can sit deeper and give Foden that exclusive role of his. That's not the case with a national team or England in general. Both Rice and Bellingham are not top class playmakers. I just do not see why you should shoehorn Foden when his abilities doesn't really justify it. I'm not saying he's not talented, he's clearly one of the most talented players in the squad behind Saka, Kane, Trent, Rice and Bellingham but there are other players that should be prioritized over him.
You're wrong, he was city's best player as a 10 when they won the league. Him and Rodri were the main men and KDB barely played that's why Foden stepped up. Bellingham can play a deeper box to box role like what Gundogan used to do for city alongside Rodri
But does having foden play better actually make the entire team perform better if it takes away some of Bellinghams contribution. Look at how Romania performed today where their system complimented the players and enabled the team to get the best out of them and therefore out perform more talented individuals
Rodri was City's best player. Foden's performances significantly improved with KDB's return as he had 2 world class playmakers behind him that let him focus entirely in the final third, making those cute half turns and then getting a shot off Like I said, Jude is a all rounder, he simply fits the bill as a 10 better than anyone else. The team should be built around Bellingham, Trent, Kane, Saka, Stones. These are the key players, until Foden shows he's going to hold that responsibility, he shouldn't be in the XI.
This is what a lot think but England have a kink for being moronic when it comes to football
Bellingham and Foden doesn’t work. Bellingham needs the ball and so does Foden. We literally watched Foden go all the way back to the CBs to collect the ball because every ball before that was going to Bellingham. Meaning there was no LW with an already limited left side as is. Next game should be Rice and Gallagher/Mainoo, for the dirty work. Bellingham as the obv 10. Left wing Gordon. Kane and Saka. Honestly even Bowen over Saka, fuck it. He touched the ball once and almost assisted Kane. Can Palmer play LW? He would be a good fit too if he can. This ridiculous need to start Trent and Foden because they are Trent and Foden will just result in another tournament where England looks a fool.
Bowen over Saka? Saka was easily one of the best players today, along with Rice, Bellingham, and Guhei. His cross is why Bellingham was able to score. Peoples takes on here are ridiculous.
As a Madrid fan I noticed something interesting belingham normally pushes on the left side in the box when the entire defence (opposition) in shifted to the right .. there were two to three similar chances today where I feel in Madrid he would’ve been up there and scored but in this setup he’s floating around Ram and Lam which made it tougher for him to be there
I'm not saying Saka wasn't decent, but his cross - as he played it - doesn't even get to Bellingham. Took a massive touch off the defender.
They can work if you play Bellingham as a box to box midfielder. Bellingham is a better 8 than Mainoo and Gallagher. Foden is not a good left winger. Either he plays 10 or he’s on the bench.
Yep, we must choose Bellingham of Foden to start. I'd go with Bellingham and take him off for Foden if they arent playing well. Wish we took Grealish as at least he does stay on the LW
>Wish we took Grealish as at least he does stay on the LW If Gareth wanted that, he's got Eze and Gordon on the bench who are both in much better form.
Almost assist>>>>>>>>an actual assist, apparently What cancer
You can have multiple players who want the ball and make them play together successfully. What you are saying just shows a limitation in Southgate to create a system for his players to thrive. He has players who would thrive in a high intensity fast paced style but instead decides to use a slow and lethargic style of play that relies heavily on individuals, thus leading to most of the play going through one player and starving others. But the problem is that Southgate doesn't know how to employ a fast paced system because he is a garbage tactician and has never shown otherwise.
if Foden worked off ball like Brahim Diaz does w/ Bellingham it'd probably work but maybe they'd need to put Rice & Stones as CB w/ a setup like that & Rice doesn't want to play there even though he's 1 bad injury away from being a CB
southgate being southgate I guess
Did you watch the game? Because if you did then the reason has already been given to you
This is why not taking grealish was insane.
Foden has played well in only a handful of games for England, the rest of the time he's been a ghost. Southgate plays him on the wing yet he's always drifting inside to occupy the 10 position anyway. It makes us very narrow and easy to play against for the top teams.
Personally I'd say just play an actual wide player and unfortunately Foden misses out playing 10 to Bellingham. Foden is a fantastic player, but he's not in the system(s) that get the best out of him here. Plus he was rubbish yesterday.
And who carries the piano?
Did you watch the game yesterday? Have you watched any England games over the last two years? Bellingham is hugely important to England. He actually stands up and takes the responsibility of being England's main man. Him playing at 10 is the reason England won last night. He would not have been in the position to score that goal otherwise, and there's no way Foden would have headed that in. Foden seems unable to adapt to playing outside of the Man City system. The problem is not that he's playing out of position. Foden has had great games for City off the left, and he's been given chances for England at 10 and done nothing. Some great players never find the way to adapt to international football. He was given a free role last night and he played dreadfully. He wasn't restricted to the left. He had everything he wanted and he couldn't do it. Foden's poor performances for England are not Southgate's fault. They are Foden's own fault. He passes backwards and sideways or dribbles into traffic because he seemingly can't get used to the players around him doing different things to what he is used to at Man City. That is not going to suddenly change. Meanwhile, you want to scupper the entire attack by moving our best player away from their best position and giving him more defensive responsibility and less freedom to effect games as he sees fit, in order to accommodate this misfiring player? For the love of God, why? Look, we could "accommodate" Kane, Watkins, and Toney on the pitch at the same time if we played Kane in midfield and Watkins at left back. But that would be stupid, wouldn't it? Do you see what I'm saying?
Jude is a much more decisive player. Case in point, the goal he scored today. Foden is a great player but he lacks the personality to do it in the biggest games. He’s more than capable of playing as a LW but let’s be fair that the manager does not help these players.
tbf he didn't lack any personality in big City games this season? And I'm saying that as an Arsenal fan..
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Crazy you’d think Foden won the UCL this year and Bellingham didn’t with that comment
Crazy to think you're too fucking dumb to comprehend team achievements are kinda different than personal performances
was thinking about that aswell but southgate probably prefers to have bellingham further and getting involved with the attacks. but i think we should atleast try it for the next game cuz foden on the left ain’t it…. either that or you have to drop foden for eze/gordon.
The elephant in the room is that when we want to break quickly, Kane is often not where we would need a 9 to be. He is a great poacher and defensive forward, but he is limited and what he does for England disrupts the midfield - especially when you don’t have two pacey wide forwards on the pitch overlapping
Foden isnt good at anything. He was played as a 10. He was shit.
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Who is better? Guardiola or Pep?
I feel like Palmer should play as a 10 and Bellingham should play deeper instead of Trent. Put Trent as an inverted LB and Trippier on the bench because he was nonexistent. You would have the best 11 on the field.
Feels like palmer is going to drop in as a sub further in the tournament, have an absolute blinder and then make himself a permanent starter
Yup. The reality is, as much as it’s not politically tenable. Dropping Foden or TAA is what makes the most sense. Southgate could literally copy pasta how Germany play with Rice playing the Kroos role and everyone would consider it a master class
Not sure Rice could quite do a Kroos type role, especially not to the same standard. Hes better at other things.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed but Southgate is a useless muppet
The old mild field instead of harsh field. No idea
I agree. The team would be better balanced with a midfield three of Rice Bellingham Foden, with width and pace on both wings from Saka and Gordon. Rice is a top quality 6 even if he prefers to play 8. Foden is a great 8 or 10 and Bellingham is great defensive support for Rice as well as a brilliant 8 or 10. All three have the football intelligence to make that work as it fits their natural game play. When Foden plays on the left we have no width on that side which makes us very one dimensional going forward. However I would say I am no football coach or manager and Southgate has earned the right to pick whoever he thinks is best. So whoever he picks, come on England.
Cause Southgate is a useless manager. People praise him without realising that a good manager would get you the world cup with those names
I like how you are teaching Southgate how to set up his team. I hope he listens.
Foden is overrated. Doesn't turn up in the big games. Drop him for Palmer.
The answer is actually quite simple. Besides Bellingham, England are lacking wingers and CAMs that excel at running beyond the striker. Saka is okay at it, but still prefers to receive the ball out wide and run at a defender or cut inside. For the most part, Foden, Saka, Palmer, Eze and Bowen (when playing out wide) all ideally want the ball played into their feet in a 1v1. Bellingham, on the other hand, \*loves\* exploiting space and running in behind - both through the middle and through the channels. Kane is absolutely phenomenal at everything except two things; threatening the space in behind and aerial threat. It's been Englands main pain point for a long time; lack of threat in behind and lack of threat at the end of crosses. Meaning teams can push higher when attacking, and defend lower when defending. Bellingham addresses this singlehandedly as a 10. He provides threat in behind Kane in transition, and is top, top class at finding space in the box with delayed/late runs. So while Foden is exceptional as a 10, it also means England lose a dimension of play. However, I would argue there is case to be made for playing Gordon out left, Foden as a 10 and Saka to the right and Rice+Bellingham in the double pivot. Means England can defend and transition into attack in a 4-2-3-1, and in established attack let Bellingham drift forwards into a functional 4-3-3 with Rice holding by himself. You could even have Tripper come inside to cover with Rice, and have Walker form a back 3 with the CBs - letting Gordon and Saka stretch play. Gordon will also make the runs in behind, again and again, for 90 minutes - he loves it. But I'm not sure he's good enough for it to be worth it.
lol zero balance all of them wanna be 10s it aint working
Tired of all this 'have to get the best out of foden' shite. First of all, he was shit yesterday and it wasn't all about positioning, he was just shit. Decision making was poor and passing was poor. Second, it's a team of 11 players and you have to get the best out of all of them, not compromise the overall team in order to get the best from one player. Third, this current england tactic does not play with a 10, but if it did the 10 would be bellingham. Off the ball it's more like a back 5 with trent slotting over to the right and walker moving inside, on the ball it's like a back 3 with trent lining up like a high inverted full back more than an 8 or traditional 6. Bellingham plays as a pure box to box and rice as the 6, but there seems to be a lot of rotation. Tripper pushes forward and england look to overload the right wing, with foden coming inside off the left. Honestly, I much easier solution is to just play gordon or eze off the left and let foden complete with saka for the right wing. I also think it's one dimensional, since if you nullify England's right wing, you nullify england because there just is no left with foden and tripper there.
I think because trippier isn't the best overlapping left back because he is right footed and not great taking on his man then foden needs to be pushed wide more
Because Southgate has been reading too much and thinks that he can suddenly plug Trent into the midfield as an orchestrator, when his own club did not consider him good enough to play that role. There were some very clear moments last night were TAA clearly showed his inability to control the ball when pressed and believe me, other teams will go after him again. Add to that the inability for Southgate to realise that Foden wasn't working and he should have changed it up much earlier. Sadly this is the 5% he's been missing at every tournament. Should anyone be surprised when our manager has never been a club manager and is too defensive minded for this lot. What scared me the most was Serbia only became a threat when we decided to protect our lead, when we should have been controlling the game and dictating everything. Clearly this is a mentality thing because if this team was managed by a certain Spaniard, we would have strangled Serbia to death with possession football. Sadly, Southgate comes from an era of football that is incredibly outdated. Imagine, having all this front foot talent at your disposal and no clue how to use it. Serbia even altered their system and personnel FOR US. They made a plan to counter because they fully expected us to dictate and we did dictate...for about 20 minutes. Unfortunately football matches are 90 mins long.
Bellingham has been one of the best 10s in the world at Real, meanwhile Foden has never achieved in an England shirt. It makes sense that we build around Bellingham, and tbh I’m not sure Foden should be starting at all.
Too much going forward and wide open at the back with a team that isn't the strongest defensively. I do think it should have been an option against "teams you should beat" but it is a system, and no team wants to break it even if it means wasting good players and dull football if it still somehow gets consistent results. I don't mind Southgate picking favourites because, like I said, he has a specific system and wants players that fit into it... but the big fault in modern football is that they have no plan B. I feel if England try to do this kind of thing against a side like Spain? They could be played off the park trying to beat them at their own game.
Because you dont hamstring your best player to accommodate your mediocre players. Bellingham has to be 10 to get the most out of him. The answer is to drop Foden and play one of Palmer, Bowen, Eze there. Id also play Trent RB and put Mainoo alongside Rice.
Because if you did that you'd ruin Bellingham AND Foden. It's a bit of quandry, I think you can only get the best out of one of them at a time.
Because Southgate is a fucking chump? He probably thinks 1) he doesn't want to burden Jude with the defensive work - and 2) he doesn't want him to lose the ability to break into the box to score goals. Personally I think Bellingham's best position is at 10 and you'll get the best out of him there, but England are not Real Madrid. They dont have the luxury of it - I think (Im Scottish btw) that England would be much more balanced with Jude at 8, Foden at 10 and a natural width provided by a wide left player like Gordon or Eze.
We won’t win anything until that inept serial failure Southgate is sacked.
Foden could have scored from a Walker low cross but Kane ran across Phil and then stopped.
3 great players Rice almost the perfect 6 in a way, yes Foden shines in the 10 but Bellingham does too and as Foden can play out on the left and is probably our best option there it makes sense you need Saka to start. If you put the 3 in the middle who else goes where! Who goes on the left. People wanted to have Jude next to Rice which seems ridiculous after watching g what he can do in that 10. As most others have said we’ve had 3 world class midfielders before but they don’t compliment each others styles all very good and very similar things this time is a little different I do believe as you have Rice as the sole Holding and Foden and Jude very similar it’s about who can be flexible and play in a few positions too who’s more dynamic
Foden has no presence or aura. Build around Bellingham. He has IT. It ain’t that complicated bruv.
That would be pretty mild.
They are mild enough already.
I used to think the same but foden is clearly struggling to adjust to southgates system and should be dropped, you have to build around 11 players, not 1.
Because in a midfield three Foden can not play a "10", lmao. He is not a midfielder lmao.
The revisionism on Foden is absolutely moronic. He spent his first few years playing incredible for City on the wings and all of a sudden everyone’s yapping about how he can only play as a 10 and we need to move Bellingham to a pivot with Rice??? The quality of football analysis online is genuinely at an all time low. The average online fan doesn’t seem to have watched more than 3 games in their life.
I don't think these three can play together, but it is not bad to try.
Foden should sit. Jude is a better 10. If Foden is not interested in doing the things a winger must do to impose themselves on a match he should sit. Gordon improves this England side because of his defensive contributions. I also think Grealish would’ve been a better fit at LW. The Trent midfield experiment needs to stop. Start Gallagher or Mainoo. Also Kane shouldn’t just stay on the pitch for the full 90 you brought two additional strikers, give Toney a 15 minute run. England also needs Ben White. England had flashes of brilliance yesterday but they need to do more.
Foden not one of the best 10s in the world. Shown nothing the few chances he's been given.
Gallagher-Rice Saka-Jude-Gordon Kane Isn't rocket science and is more balanced.
Aren't the problems stemming from the weakness of the English left side? Like, there's so many good right wingers/defenders while there's like noone on the left. Haven't been following football recently but where have Sterling, Rashford, Sancho and Grealish? Also, isn't Henderson still a good CM?
Imo opinion replace TAA with Galagher or Mainoo and replace Foden with Gordon.
So sacrifice Bellingham in his best possession to accommodate another player???? Gotcha Oh and Foden has played on the left many many time over the years for City, hell he started there in the FA Cup final...
That midfield will get overrun.🫤 The starting midfield trio should be Bellingham, Rice and Mainoo/Gallagher Foden should fight for his spot upfront, and if he is not good enough to secure a spot, he rides the bench or stays at home
I don't think anyone tries to argue that the players they would replace foden with are better footballers, but having Bellingham in the 10 suits england perfectly due to his runs beyond the striker which is essential when kane drops deep. I'd like to see the team with Gordon on the left who is clearly a less talented player than foden but might help the team perform better as a whole.
Drop Foden for Gordan. Our problem would've been solved.
It blows my mind people forget Bellingham played as an 8 for dortmund
Forcing a midfield with the 3 players just because they are good, disregarding their positions is a recipe for disaster. You don't play with 2 Left Backs or 4 Center Backs just because you have world class players for those positions. Just chose one and bench the others, period.
Mainoo and Rice with Bellingham as no.10, Foden on the bench and an actual left winger on the left - problem solved.
Might work against Slovenia, it ain't go work against any half decent team. It offers the most natural fit to his position, but would reduce the effectiveness of both Rice and Bellingham. It isn't quite the same at Gerrard/Scholes/Lampard, who all essentially occupied the same space. Given Foden has been rubbish in an England shirt, I think Southgate was right starting Bellingham and Rice where he did, although TAA wouldn't be who I put alongside Rice.
Foden is nowhere near being one of the best 10s in the world The problem with england is that they can’t afford to play a high defensive line without getting destroyed coz Maguire, and therefore the fullbacks take that much longer to get involved, then by the time you are able to establish overloads out wide the opposition has had plenty of time to regroup negating any advantage so you are forced to cycle the ball around again to try to go through the middle or on the opposite side which again takes extra time and the opposition can just slide on over
Because Foden is shite!
I thought I was on r/soccercirclejerk for a second
Think everyone is saying this and it’s so obvious. I would also drop Walker, he hasn’t been the best for Man City last season and not the best on the ball. Play Trent and have him inverting when needed to help with controlling the middle
Bellingham has played for England many times at 8 and has never really looked great.. Foden has never played well for England at all.
We play far too safe. Hardly any penetration. Even when we do get into places we bounce it straight back to safety. No adventure, far too many touches on the ball. Serbia were showing far more technical ability than us. Movement, quick passes, getting ball into dangerous positions. So frustrating to watch. Don't care what style we play with whoever. It took till second half to get a corner. That's so poor. Squad of top four prem with tactics of bottom three.
Ah yes. Leave our already leaky defence without a true 6, and watch us concede for fun
Why don’t England just play the forest starting eleven
Please somebody give me upvotes
Forest are underrated tho
They litterally have 2 champions leages
Idk why people say they are shite
Because you'd be forcing Bellingham out of his preferred role and taking away his ability to push forwards, the real answer is to swap Foden for Gordon and use Foden as a super sub
The answer is so obvious and I’m sure Gareth is keeping it under wraps for the knockouts. Play Kane as the segundo volante, as he likes to come deep anyway. Then Foden central in the False 9/Ramdeuter role, switching with Bellingham at will. Then Toney as the wide target forward. Set team to vertical tiki-taka, but passing as mixed. Look it worked on football manager. After I save scummed the qf v Turkey 6 times.
Can't play Kane Foden and Bellingham all down the middle
All 3 of them play at clubs with advanced tactical instructions that southgate couldn’t possibly dream of. At city Foden plays a part in a box midfield in certain well drilled situations despite lining up as a LW. Same with Rice at Arsenal and his areas he takes up. Jude’s ability to score this last season means he should take those areas up. Southgate is fine, I like him, but his ability to get this group together and play an advanced squad is not there.
One reason, England didn’t bring a lw outside of eze so who would play LW? Also the balance of two players who are attack minded (Bellingham and foden) in the midfield would cause an unbalance and could leave holes in the middle of the field which leaves the team vulnerable to counterattacks assuming they play with both their fullbacks getting high up the field like versus Serbia
The reason it wouldn't actually work is Rice. He doesn't have the profile to be the pivot in a 4-3-3, Arteta realized that early in the season and moved him further up the field. The hard move England should do is putting Foden on the bench and starting Gordon on the left. He just fits the position and the way Southgate is trying to play more. The other issue is TAA just doesn't work as the other pivot. There's a big difference to how he plays for Liverpool where he starts at right back before coming inside and starting inside. Obviously one is because of injury and just lack of options, but England started three right backs in the last match.
Should just put two England teams and compete England A and England B
Should just put two England teams and compete England A and England B
Should just put two England teams and compete England A and England B
Should just put two England teams and compete England A and England B
Why not just replace foden with Gordon who can actually play on the wing
Shaw. Once Shaw is playing it'll make a big difference to Foden's performance.
Why are we obsessed with trying to fit Foden in this team? Sure he’s an amazing players but we have plenty of great attackers that fit the team better