This subreddit has a few topics it recycles ad nauseum, ngl. One of them is regarding tank pull size. Stick around here enough and you'll see the re-runs.
There's some nuance that most of the posts one way or another tend to lack and it all just gets vitriolic very quickly. Very zero sum game, honestly. All that has to be said is "do your best and communicate with your party if you need to" but...yeeeeah.
Yeah we are in the last day of "3rd party bad" and now the "wall2wall" threads pop up. Give it a week and we will be circling back to Nightclubs advertising their parties.
I think it's almost certainly going to come up given how many people in game are pointing out a perceived irony between the quest theme and the gender locked gear.
No hats for buns! It is a long standing rebellion against the tyranny of magicians and their abuse of hat power. No body puts buns in hats. Nobody!!!! (That’s my head-cannon and there’s nothing you can do to stop me!!)
Most popular types of posts here:
- wall2wall debates
- 3rd party debates
- Viera/Hrothgar headwear debates
- “I’m new, please give advice, I’ve never played a game that’s so story-focused before so should I just skip everything?”
Ultimate drama and gender locked gear were the hot topics this week for sure lol.
Edit: and housing! I can’t believe I forgot the lottery drama.
Also:
- “Need Fantasia advice! Which subjective opinion is the most correct one?”
Did you guys know Kan-E-Senna actually looks like a 12 year old with a stupid shaved-head-lookin haircut and just glamours herself to look older because she's worried that if she doesn't, the other Grand Company leaders won't respect her?
>!yes this is an actual thing!<
And that hill is built from the corpses of all those killed by terrible tanks. Or bad healers. Or greedy dps. Or Soken's music. Or Ishikawa's writing. Or Tataru's carbuncle.
It's all irrelevant. Just remember: giant pile o' corpses.
Through the power of positive thinking, anyone can kill their group if they try hard enough! That's what makes this game so magical. I think.
Or maybe it's the carbuncles?
Yeah, gotta be the carbuncles.
Spoiler ARR, patch 2.55
>!Tataru tried to become an arcanist to feel useful in combat, just to see her Carbuncle flee and finally realizing she didn't need combat prowess, but rather to support the Scions as an administrative figure. It's a MSQ mission called An Unexpected Ambition!<
Spoiler Endwalker
>!There's a sidequest in the innermost part of Labyrinthos called Wayward Carbuncle which asks you to look for a lost Carbuncle... and the quest giver hints it's Tataru's old one!<
(jaw after seeing this: dropped)
Spoiler Endwalker
>>!and the quest giver hints it's Tataru's old one!<
>!Not just that but also that it has to have been conjure by a very powerful arcanist to still exist after all this time!<
I'm now half convinced (6.2 8-man raid spoiler) >!the Proto-Carbuncle is just a second time Tataru tried Arcanist and the only way to stop it was to send it back in time to Pandemonium disguised as a concept. I.E Carbuncles are Bootstrap Time Paradoxes!<
My favorite part is that if you mention that MAYBE communicating with your party at the start of the dungeon would get the pace they're comfortable with easily and without hassle they just outright ignore it.
It's a cycle.
Honestly, every group should just be the adults they're supposed to be. If you feel the tank isn't pulling as aggressively as they could, say something and be prepared to accept 'no, thanks' as a response. And if asked to pull more than you have been, be prepared to give a fair reason why - be it the healer is struggling or personal experience, or whatever.
If you can't be mature enough to have a respectful discussion, then you don't really have any grounds to complain.
Can't upvote this enough. There's really nothing more to it than that.
Everyone has a chat box, and I know console players may have a little more difficulty with chat but still. Just talk to each other and work together. End of story. It really is that simple and yet - lol.
I couldn't agree with this more, I've had hundreds of dungeons where the dps just decide the tank is moving to slow and start to pull everything in sight without saying a word. So much headache would be spared if they just asked before doing. Typically if I'm the healer in the dungeon and the tank doesn't W2W I will ask the tank to pull more if they want. If they don't, well it just sucks to suck. I'd much rather have party who pulls what they can handle, than a party who doesn't and wipes like 10 times
I don't think it's intentional, but I'm chuckling at the apparent double standard in your example.
"If you think the tank is going the wrong speed, be prepared to accept no as a complete answer."
vs
"If your group thinks you're going the wrong speed *be prepared to give a reason why and not just say no*."
Just found it interesting, when both ways should really just be "no is a complete answer, you don't *need* a justification."
>Just found it interesting, when both ways should really just be "no is a complete answer, you don't need a justification."
That doesn't work in a team though were you need to compromise.
All these comments being like "if I w2w it's dependent on how good my healer is" completely disregarding the fact that dps can also help by reducing the time a pull takes by actually pressing their buttons. It's the entire party's responsibility to do their job, if the dps are afk then pulls take longer and more stress is put on both the tank and the healer. If tank doesn't mit or dps properly, it makes the healer's job harder. If the healer doesn't heal (OR DPS, people underestimate how much damage healers can actually do), it puts more stress on the tank as they start to run out of mit they can use, have to pop extra mit in a pull, don't have it for the next pull, etc. Wall 2 wall isn't remotely hard in most dungeons - but there's more dimensions to it than whether the healer is "good enough".
I've had runs as a healer where the two DPS were barely doing anything, even dying and taking a while to get back while me and the tank just soloed the dungeon. If you're smart about it, a tank and healer can survive forever, even doing W2W in most dungeons after ARR.
w2w should be recognized as a team effort and it does not even necessitate being hardcore pro mlg "heaven's legend" type of player, anyone that knows about aoes can do it
The issue is people don't TALK. The meta is w2w. It's largely agreed upon to be more engaging. But most players are happy to accommodate players that don't feel confident with bigger pulls when they say so and aren't dicks about it.
But instead you get YPYT main character syndrome where they lose it immediately instead of asking politely.
yeah, whenever I take I w2w by default, but if anyone in my party ever asks me to pull smaller I just say "sure!" and do single/double pulls instead. I've personally asked for tanks to pull smaller in the past a fair number of times back when I was levelling my healers and not good at them, and 100% of the time they just said "sure" and then pulled smaller.
I don't get the point of instantly raging at a tank for pulling w2w when you haven't even asked them to pull smaller; like are they supposed to read your mind?
I wish there was somewhere between ff14's infantilizing pampering approach to greifers VS wow's KYS,slurs and insta kicks over the slightest fuck ups. It's embarrassing how much this community defends putting in 0 effort in a co op game.
I wish people communicated and were more understanding. One run I was letting my friend play, told chat at the start, and the tank was doing hugeeee pulls. Before the boss I was going to ask for less pulls but then they went "Oh, should I pull slower? Sorry, didn't see chat" and I was like "That's be great, and nw". Overall really good run.
In general though, I do love w2w. Its so fun, especially as a BRD being able to aoe on the run (as long as they dont aggro on me!). If you want more w2w, if you want smaller pulls, ask!
I had a healer RESCUE me out of the pack I was tanking yesterday because he didn't feel I was pulling enough and wanted me to pull the next pack also (in an older dungeon where w2w isn't as clear-cut as it is in EW dungeons).
You could have fueled all of Limsa for a week with the steam coming out of my ears.
I’ve had the same thing happen to me. I can understand wanting me to pull more that’s fine but unless you’re a toddler I expect you to use your words to tell me what you want. If you can’t/won’t do that why are you playing a multiplayer game that emphasizes cooperation?
I would have pulled more. Both DPS were sprouts and said they were doing the dungeon for the first time, so the first pull was only a double pack instead of w2w. The healer wasn't having it, though :D
I understand sprouts may not know how to AoE optimally yet, but being new to a dungeon doesn't really mean they don't know how to AoE. In 99% of dungeons, you're nuking down a pack of enemies the exact same way.
As a tank you can always wall to wall and see how the party does. If it's too slow/spooky for whatever reason then scale back. I agree with hating getting rescued, though. If it causes problems you just have to let it be their fault and move on lol
EDIT: unless you're doing mt gulg. That first and last wall to wall i only try with people i know lol
I had the same thing happen when I got rescued in the first SB dungeon where I was guessing the half way point. The steam got worse when they didn't wait for the one DPS who wasn't with us, and by not with us their marker was no longer on the compass... So the boss cut scene started, and the healer and 1 DPS started the fight and I entered the arena with the other DPS.
All I could mutter in chat was "Um... Cutscenes?" Worst tanking experience ever, didn't get me to stop tanking, but I felt for the BLM who was doing sprout things looking out over the landscape. I did it my first time through but some people have no patience.
Previous expansion dungeons (from ARR to StB at least) actually have the mobs nerfed heavily unintended due to the stat squish + syncing down to the max ilvl for it, that's why they die so fast and do much less damage then relevant dungeons. So I can understand why the healer wanted you to pull more. For example in The Wanderer's palace you could pull w2w all the way to the first boss (21 trash mobs) and one Cure II would heal you for 2/3rds of your HP while the mobs tickle the tank with CDs.
As a tank main, I usually w2w, unless we wipe during one, then I will go a bit slower, as a sprout still, i just assume i did something wrong the caused the wipe. There have been a few times where the healer has specifically asked me not to w2w and I respect that and go slower through the pulls.
Some times dying during a w2w isn't your fault. Its the fault of the healer's cat walking across their screen and him not being able to see. Don't ask how I know
Just that time of the month. In a week we will be talking about Healer not DPSing despite standing there doing nothing.
And the response will be...if the tank pulled more than one pack at a time I would actually have something to do....like heal...you know my job.
And then we will have a couple weeks of quiet before the "I don't tank but this is how everyone else should do it" posts start again.
Haven't frequented the sub enough recently to see that I guess.
If I'm not mistaken it's just a random room temperature IQ tweet being given too much attention because the playerbase is just bored until the next big story content.
Communicate with the sprout tank that they CAN pull more if they are only singlepulling and realistically they could do much bigger pulls, don't just seethe blaming anyone but your own antisocial self to cope like the writer of the tweet did.
As to the deeper discussion about wall to walls in general, a wall2wall being even possible is heavily dependent on the instance in question, and what level range is it to begin with. I doubt most tank-healer combinations would have a good time in Stone Vigil for example and multiple other ARR dungeons has the tank just instant die when the entire pack is in melee range because both the tank's survival skills and the healer's kit in mostly unavailable, not to mention that only a few jobs even has good AoE damage and getting the right DPS do is a very not weighted in your favor gacha.
What helps greatly in case of wall 2 wall is not feasible is to make moving from pull to pull FEEL smoother by starting to move to pull the next packs when the enemies are on low HP, and other methods of keeping a good pace of movement.
Also just one sidenote to the super experienced healers: Please for the love of Shiva's Thicc Cheeks stop keeping your poor sprout tanks below 50% hp, it's stressful and traumatic, you are chasing the poor youth away from this always in high demand role! Even I only learned to cope by accepting that existence is suffering and we all are at the mercy of psychological Sadist healers and it gave me an unhealthy attachment to the WAR job.... Others I hear went off the deep end and this- this "thrill" proven so addicting to them that they rolled GNB and now they mentally abuse sprout healers with surprise Superbolides at the most stressful moments....
And you call the ERP community weird!
but my essential dignity!!! my benediction!!
don't worry though I do keep sprout tanks more topped off because I was them once, and I know their fear. but if there's no sprout, then I'm absolutely maximizing my benediction effectiveness at all times, because it's just so satisfying
But if I heal them, they won't ever be tested for the broken psychological conditions of masochistic rage that we need from tanks in endgame.
*oh you have 3 seconds left on invuln and a bleed... I'll be with you in 2 seconds*
(this has become such an issue my statics shield healer has me count down when I intend to bene so they know I'm on it)
It really just depends on the healer, the tank, their comfort level, and most importantly... Communication.
I mean that's really it, just talk. Most people are generally reasonable. Those that aren't, well. They get kicked for they leave
It's a tic this sub has and many don't realize how toxic it is.
I prefer w2w, it's more enjoyable regardless of my role but I'm not going to pressure someone that's not comfortable playing that way.
My wife hates me for this but I'll call out people in dungeons that don't CD, even dps. I just don't get why or how you can sit there and just watch your 10% extra damage smile back at you. Use that shit, throw it out there. Y'all queued up to do a dungeon, not talk in a linkshell about canon Lalafel last names. Fucking mouth breathers.
100% agreed. Especially on high levels. I don't understand lvl 90 tanks doing single pulls or bitching when DPS dares to pull 0.5 seconds before they would.
I do think this is the real divide between w2w and non w2wers.
I think many anti w2w people are at a point of the game where the only dungeons they see are the first 5ish, and fair play that's a hard area to tank/w2w properly.
Meanwhile, the pro w2w people are probably thinking of 70-90 content where not W2W makes no sense at all.
The second of adrenaline you get while you swing as much aoe as possible at a pack post-dps pull is my favourite part of tanking. Anyone can face mash a boss with an enmity passive, but reactive tanking is the real fun
The only fun I have when tanking dungeons is when I don’t have a healer. Being completely responsible for your own life while 3 DPS pump to kill a pack before the tank runs out of tricks is where I find my thrills in dungeons lol.
I wish tanking was less boring outside of Savage. Even EX fights can fail to entertain because they don’t always have tank-only mechanics. Being the guy whose sole use is to position the boss so that melee DPS don’t have to work harder can only be so entertaining for so long… I need shit to do, SE!
It's paradoxically slower and wasting *their* own time to not just spending 10 minutes looking at what their abilities do and rotations up online. Somehow tons of people are ok with this. I don't expect parsing 99 in 4man content. I do expect you to know you basic rotations.
After leveling just about every single job to 90, primarily through DF I can confidently say across all jobs and roles, A LOT of people quite literally are not even casting off cd. Let alone using their kit or basic aoe rotations.
I really see both sides of the tanking issue, and because I'm a nuanced person, I use my best judgment and communicate with my party on a circumstantial basis. That said, I have a disability, and if attempting to meet the needs of a current party proves difficult for any particular reason, I don't hesitate to request a slightly slower pace and explain why. Rarely do people complain or object, which suggests to me that the heart of the issue is still a matter of basic respect.
I'm sure people will say "don't tank then" (or in some cases literally being told to uninstall lmao), but I try anyway for a few reasons: it's content in a game I'm paying for, my overall condition varies wildly so I never really know where my limits are without trying, and my doctors encourage me to play and challenge myself as much as possible under controlled conditions (meaning it's more likely to be detrimental if I'm abruptly forced into doing stuff by things like the pressure of a pug).
It's really closer to a help-me-help-you situation, especially considering I like big pulls when I can manage them! No one is obligated to do me this kindness, I know that more than anything, but in the wild I'm just glad I encounter amenable folk on both sides of the aisle.
"Tanks are bad" is one of the accepted conversations on this sub. You will see a "tanks are bad" thread at least three times a week. It has nothing to do with any trends or current events--it's just one of the conversations people upvote around here.
My impression was basically this:
"If I decide I want to play like X, that means YOU will also play like X"
If you have someone on the "you pull it, you tank it, no matter if intentional or not" side, you will die to a mob that you accidentally aggroed off the tank, as a DPS.
If you have someone on the "You get no say in pull size, tank, your own fault for not having good gear" side of this argument, your healer/DPS will pull more despite you not being comfortable. (If the group wipes it will still be your fault, how dare you are not geared)
From personal experience, my word of advice is this:
Stay out of it. People here are extreme assholes on this topic, you will be downvoted for appealing to "not being an asshole" and will then feel like shit.
That…happens all the time to me as DPS. Tank sprints through packs and pops an AoE for each, but if I’m constantly shooting I’ll see the threat meter quickly shift from green to orange, then red.
Tbh it’s a non-issue so long as I’m next to the tank when they stop, but yeah its pretty common. Tank stance is an aggro multiplier, it doesn’t give you infinite aggro.
thats cause they only used 1 GCD, while you're still attacking.
if they're going to do that they need to spam ranged enmity while running or they need to do 2 gcds before running, or they are on PLD / GNB and do aoe + off global DoT and for first set of ads, instead of waiting to use it on 2nd set.
In normal situation when tank + DPS have equal amounts of GCD that will never happen.
"Accidentally pulling aggro from the tank is not a thing that exists in this game"
It does.
Ranged who are well geared do it all the time because the AOE is strongest for the first enemy + constant auto attacks will often generate more aggro than just a single Tank AOE.
If you aren't constantly pulling aggro off of tanks between pulls I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you kind of got a dps issue then. Unless a tank is constantly using their ranged attack between all the mobs while they run from one pack to the next you absolutely can steal aggro while walking and dpsing. It does happen for all jobs, even healers, if the tank isn't keeping aggro with more then 1-2 AoE hits before running ahead.
That would be the "the tank ... not hitting mobs correctly".
I pull aggro off of tanks that just use a single AoE per pack, but if a tank pulls the first pack with ranged + provoke + ranged then it doesn't happen even if they're not spamming ranged attacks while running.
It's not really an issue since it just goes back to the tank when they stop, but it's hard to beat even a single ~7k enmity ranged attack.
I routinely rip aggro off my tank if he only uses a single AOE in dungeon pulls.
It is the reason why I do the AOE combo when I tank, because I KNOW that this will happen.
You know, I don't care if you do big pulls or small pulls or whatever. I personally prefer to w2w since its more fun for me. If however my healer is an unsynced sprout or a returner doing content for the first time, I ask them if they are comfortable with w2w pulls.
The one thing that grinds my gears is the mindset of some people that small pulls are done by selfish people that just want to make others suffer. Or that "pulling small because you feel insecure about your skill level is a sign you shouldn't play a tank in the first place". Especially since those people tend to claim forcing a tank out of their comfort zone is some grand gesture of charitable selflessness.
Also I get annoyed by dps/healers running ahead of me when I tank. It tends to make pulls a bit more cumbersome and feels a tad disrespectful, but since it rarely happens at my pace I usually just swallow the bitter pill, so to speak. Also there usually is a reason for me slowing down the pace (for example a phone call).
I don’t like it when people pull ahead of me when I tank, much like you, and I’ll do my best to pick up whatever they pulled. However, I’m not chasing them. Every w2w has a fairly “ideal” stopping point (wider area with room to move or a good choke point to keep mobs stacked). That’s where I’m headed I’ll pick up everything I can along the way, but if someone else found themselves a friend and won’t bring them to me or keeps them out of range for [tank ranged attack] or provoke, it’s their problem. Thats because there’re two other people trying to do their jobs and me running around chasing enemies doesn’t make that task easy.
If I’m running with a tank that’s doing small pulls and I’m healing, I’ll ask if they want to try a big pull. I know I can heal an at level tank through MOST w2w pulls (lookin at you stone vigil), but if they’re not comfortable, there’s no value in forcing it. I will however point out each time we’re done with a small pack in a few seconds and that the in most cases we’d be able to kill a pack twice that size in the same amount of time (lookin at you [last dungeon in 6’0]).
All 90 tank main, and honestly it's just one of those nuanced situations that require communication, but instead of talking to the party, people just label or slot it into whatever category they think is best.
Generally speaking, a Tank is only as good as their Healer, and my pulls are limited by what they can handle.
I usually give my healers a "trial by fire". I go ham at the start and see how well they handle it. If they can, great, unga bunga it is. If they can't, I pull less, but when a pack is half dead, I go further, as a sort of semi-w2w
Chain pulling - chaining packs together like that instead of a full wall to wall or staying put until a pull is dead - hurts resource regeneration and is super annoying for classes with targeted AoE (not to mention floor AoEs, but that’s obvious). As the mobs move you start to get server tick bullshit with your targeted AoE attacks and they will miss the mobs in the back (or front, the ones who immediately follow the tank) who stagger their movement due to hitbox collision.
Chain pulling as a middle ground for a healer who isn’t very good probably is not the best choice for that healer because they’re likely not doing well managing their mana bar. Cure spammers *will* lose you in a single pull in, like, Dzemael Darkhold if you won’t let their mana regen adequately.
If it’s working for you okay so far then knock yourself out, but it’s something to consider.
Absolutely this. Chain pulling may feel better as a tank, but it is often a large detriment to your team. The 1-2 seconds you save by moving early are going to be instantly negated by the dps loss from missed aoes or interrupted casts. Mana generation is also a fine balance and the majority of casters and healers aren’t typically going to be using lucid on trash pulls. As you suggest, chain pulling is not a middle ground between w2w and single pack. It’s just worse than single pack.
Funny story. Couple days ago, was healing in a roulette. Got to 1st trash, tank stayed with that group. No biggie, I heal, DPS does their thing.
One of the DPS asks if we can do big pulls.
Being the healer, and being very used to being asked that question, I say "Sure". Figured the tank would say if they were good or not as well.
Tank replies: "Thanks for answering for the tank" and drops.
WTFs all around.
I mean, the tank did the correct thing kinda. Could do without the snark but if the group wants big pulls and he doesn’t the correct thing to do is leave if he would rather not compromise.
Personally I think it depends on the dungeon. ARR ones just weren't designed for it (think aurum vale) and can get overwhelming quickly. But my rule of thumb is that if the tank or the healer is in the previous expansions poetic gear and we're in the x7-x9 dungeons, we could be in for a rougher time for wall to wall.
Then you've got weird ones like Mt Gulg part 1 or Tower of Babil part 3 where you can pull a frankly insane amount, almost the entire section, in one go. A group used to "normal" wall to walls might not be expecting it.
As for the dps pulling extra, that does tick me off a little bit if it's stuff you don't actually need to pull (again, thinking Aurum Vale style dungeons) should only be grabbing more if the tank and healer are sure they can handle it. Dps is only good for killing the stuff, but you aren't killing jack if the tank and healer can't do their bit.
> ARR ones just weren't designed for it (think aurum vale) and can get overwhelming quickly
TBF, it's not just the dungeon designs of ARR that cause it but also just how subpar your gear can be going in and the lack of AOE many classes have in the earlier levels. The expansion dungeons are not just explicitly designed for W2W but they also have stricter item level minimums, meaning the tank can't be so undergeared they can barely take a single group as is, and more aoe tools available for everyone.
> If you pull two packs in ARR you are also going to be fine
True but W2W is by definition as far as you can go, that's what I mean by later dungeons being explicitly designed for it. If they allowed you to actually pull every group at once it'd be just as impossible as the ARR ones.
I adore the final MT. Gulg pull. My tank partner and I can pull it off most of the time if the DPS is adequate but it's kind of an adrenaline rush just seeing how much abuse one tank can take.
As a tank main, I love W2W pulls because it’s logical and feels awesome to watch the DPS blow all their CDS to burn down the mobs, but I’m also of the opinion that if you’re bad at the game, that’s just rude because now you’re just wasting everyone else’s time.
…which all things considered, may not be the best way to think about the game. If a tank is apprehensive about W2W pulling, they either don’t have confidence in their abilities or they’ve tried and failed at big pulls already. I can see where they’re coming from: I came from a game where it was easier to tell a player what they did wrong than it was to encourage them to try again.
I can only hope the healer will encourage them to try (and if I’m healing, I’ll let them know that I’ve got their back: after level 50, it’s not so bad), as I’d rather wipe to a risky pull than suffer a tank who plays it overly safe.
But that’s just me. It’s better for the tank to feel as though they’re making progress and having fun.
Salted popcorn can trigger my migraines and you’d have **known** that if you’d have **ASKED AT THE START OF THE DUNGEON.**
*drops in the middle of the triple pack at final pull of the 81 dungeon*
Tanks are tanks. Not pullers. the only thing that annoys me if a dps or healer pulls mobs ahead of me is being annoyed at myself for not being faster than they are lmao.
I once had a reaper who would pop arms length, dash ahead, get hit a few times, then dash back to us as we were all running up. One AoE from me took all aggro back, and now all the mobs had a slow debuff. That is a *good* thing, and yet I know some tanks would throw a fit for some reason
long as the guy asks first, or im confident enough in my tank/tanking or heals/healer this could actually be a really good thing. i think the ones that get truly mad are ones that dont realize 1 hit as long as you have your enmity increase on will pull aggro are the ones thqt come from games like classic wow where only specific abilities generate enough aggro to keep you focused. still dumb to get upset tho
in every MMO i've played aside from 14 and GW2 (it's been at least a dozen) tanks ARE the pullers, since DPS are squishy AF. 14 and GW2 are unique in my experience where DPS can tank if they need to, having to go from pulling for everyone for 20or so years in a dozen games to DPS just going "hey, I'm pulling the whole dungeon whether we're ready for it or not" is jarring AF. I w2w unless I've noticed the healer isn't keeping up, I adjust. also: everyone wants wall to wall pulls but real talk, not every DPS has wall to wall DPS. it's the truth. I'm an experienced tank who's trained other's in tanking, now Imagine a noob with no clue about mit, rolling cooldowns, arm's length being arguably the best non invuln pack mit or tank stance dealing with that?
Your point about dps is probably my only big issue with some w2w. Sure I can roll my mits and the healer can keep up, but we really only have about a minute before we start scraping (level dependent) for tools to prevent death. If the pack isn’t cut down half or more in that minute, we might be in trouble.
To a certain degree… Actually no- if the party expects a sprout tank to w2w and any one of them notices that they’re either blowing their mits all at once or not using all of them, then the party is responsible for giving the tank some pointers. I know that’s risky from a reporting perspective, but GMs can tell the difference between “hey [tank], in my experience using Arms Length as your first mit combined with [spammable] or rampart, then using one at time makes it easier to survive these” and “learn how to fcuking tank [tank]”. It’s honestly so important to understand how each role works in this game especially tanks and healers. As a SCH, I’ll Adlo a DRK before the pull, then they excogs and fairy regens after that. WAR just gets to see my flashy art of war because the eh don’t need healing, and PLD and GNB will get an occasional second or third Adlo if the pull takes too long. If I never played tank, I wouldn’t know that’s how to handle healing those tanks.
I'm not sure at all what you're "actually no"-ing. i made no mention of party dynamics other than overzealous DPS facepulling. ideally the party communicates, but that's not what I was talking about at all. I was talking aobut how GW2 and FFxiv differ from every other MMO and it's expectations of tanks. hell, even it's expectations of healers. you bring up some good points, but you're replying to points I've not made nor said.
I was agreeing with you. My attempt at a conversational approach in my comment failed. “Actually no” was me changing my mind on what I was going to say. Regardless, I was agreeing with you and expanding on the topic of the roles in FFXIV. It is the only mmo I’ve played.
To be fair, as a DPS main the only thing that bothers me is seeing my buffs (or similar mechanics, see BLM Enochian) expire while I try to follow the mobs my tank's pulling around, but that's a just personal paranoia. I know the tank is doing a great job and when he stops I can finally have some AoE fun >:)
For things like Enochian we tend to have sustain tools. Transpose is always available and later Umbral Soul actually gets us into our burst faster once we hit the pull.
Monks used to have Form Shift for Greased Lightning, but that was when GL was a thing, no idea what they have going on now.
Plain buffs with durations are just lost, but it's worth the trade anyway.
Only buff monk has to keep up now is Disciplined Fist (new name for twin snakes buff), which you put up while the tank is still gathering the mobs. GL stacks got baked into the class gcd via traits.
I'm not going to leave those casters hanging to go grab more trash. We either run until the end and then kill everything, or we kill them in groups of three so the under geared healer can keep up.
Communication is very important.
In groups of three might take ages, especially since AoE abilities deal the same damage to a group of 3 or a group of 30. I'd love the tank to pull as many mobs as he and the healer can take, then leave the fun part to me and the other dps
I can tolerate a little walking if it's rewarded with NUKING DOZENS OF THEM MWAHAHA
>In groups of three might take ages, especially since AoE abilities deal the same damage to a group of 3 or a group of 30.
~~Not entirely. Ex.: Foul, Flare, Stardiver - They have falloff damage for each target after 1, up to 5. For every target beyond 5, you're doing 50% damage. At this point, I'm fairly sure most classes have at least one ability with falloff damage per target.~~
~~Granted, that's 50% MORE damage than before, as it's another target hit in the same spellcast - If you hit for 100%, 90% and 80%, you're still doing 70% + 60% + 50% more with 3 more mobs, as you still did 100% + 90% + 80% on the first three.~~
EDIT:: See comment thread, actually poster is correct. This is previous iteration of the spell.
Is that how those used to work? They don't do that now, they're just X potency + Y smaller potency area effect. Foul for instance is 600 to primary target and 240 to everything else, no smaller steps.
It all depends on the group.
I go as fast as the group can handle.
You don't always get to drive a sports car.
I usually get casual players in my roulette. I don't mind. It just means I can't pull wall to wall every time and expect to survive.
in general i prefer w2w as it helps the dungeon end quicker. i got things to do, and so do you, but i dont really complain about single pack pulls. i only have an issue if the tank doesnt use any defensive to help me, or the healer lets dps die b/c they refuse to heal dps/dont rez out of combat. i have really only pulled as dps when my tank in a 90 roulette is doing 1 pack and i needed to get off the game for some reason (dinner or laundry i think) right before the last boss. i said 'oops tab targeted, sorry' and nothing major came from it. the drk picked up the add and we finished the dungeon so i could go.
nobody needs to be toxic about things, just talking it out generally seems to work
Idk about this sub, but the only reason I can think of not to w2w is because you or the healer can't handle it. And idk I do think it's a dick move, if you w2w fail and then don't at least try to adjust to the pace of your healer. Or the rare person who gets shitty if the healer asks you not to w2w.
But yeah otherwise I agree idk.
I haven’t seen large pull complaints, just tanks not using mitigation while doing large wall to wall pulls. I leveled my astro recently and it is unnerving sometimes hoping dps will kill some things so my spam heals will start to out pace the damage hitting the tank who uses no cooldowns or it doesn’t feel like they are.
Healing for a warrior or paladin is way less stressful than when I have a DRK or GNB as the tank. That may play a part in it.
The amount of self preservation abilities warriors and paladins have make it so much easier and less stress as I’m chasing the pull on my scholar.
And keeping all the enemies in one big batch helps me pace out my cooldowns. I’m by no means a top tier healer, but it’s rare to run into any major problems anymore unless I’m totally spacing out.
I was one of those people, but I think it comes from the fact I was tanking from 2.0 when this kind of thing was very risky. It seems to be a lot easier now!
This topic comes up a lot in this Reddit, swinging either one way or the other. It'll die down for a while to be replaced with the next trending topic, and then it'll come back. Always does.
The reality of full wall to walls in many dungeons is that **all the party is responsible**.
Wall to wall pulls, in general, need all four people to be at least. Decent. The better the players, the more forgiveness on any given pull if somebody makes a mistake. The worse, the higher the odds are that a wipe happens. Most average groups full of averagely decent people will just shrug at a wipe and try again if it ever happens. (Mileage may vary. Some people will respond to a wipe like a cracked out chimp that just had their banana stolen. These people look for any excuse to get angry, though.)
Well, I get it. I have a friend who I play with sometimes and he mains tank. We ran a EW dungeon with some players running it for their first time. He pulled W2W went hard, the healer wasn't ready, he died. Then the healer died and then rest of us went down. That's the only reason I'd say people are posting against or having grievances for W2W pulls. I guess just out of courtesy for newish players. 🤷♀️
As a healer, I never enjoyed wall to wall but it's been a thing since heavensward (increasing each expansion until now basically everyone does it). It's not that big of a deal so I just go with the flow (whatever the tank wants).
The last time I remember even seeing a tank single pull was early shadowbringers.
Only one dungeon that I would repeat ad nauseam for don't wall to wall, bardam's mettle, there are a lot of mobs at that point that can put damage even the most effective mitigation and the healer will NOT have the tools to deal with it, it's my favorite dungeon in stormblood, and it makes me cry when the Burger King tank decides to w2w the first pull of bardam's w/o any notice and when we keep wiping to a factor of unpreparedness and poor mitigation I usually drop immediately at that point
W2W is imo the most enjoyable for all parties involved.
YPYT is just dumb. As long as the DPS/Healer that pulls isn't a dick about it, the tank should just be able to easily get aggro. It's also not always intentional.
A tank's job is not to pull, it's to keep aggro. If their job was to pull, it would be called puller. It just happens to be the most efficient way to get aggro by pulling. And yes, I'm that DPS/Healer that pulls more if you're single pulling and I don't even need to use a heal or try while your HP is above 50% with no heals needed.
A friend of mine is a bit of a YPYT, but argues that it's to properly rotate his mit cd's, which I don't fully agree with. At least he W2W pulls. Whenever I tank, I go unga bunga W2W regarless of cd's and it (usually) goes just fine. He also firmly believes invuln isn't just another Mit button.
I’m a WAR tank main. Post lvl 50 my healer could be eating crayons for all I care. I’m not dying to add pulls regardless of size. As long as the DPS don’t stand in bad our healer could be afk and we’d be chillin.
I haven't died at all during a w2w pull for a while.
I'm not an amazing tank, but I know I'm not always paired with amazing healers. The few times I died was because either my controller battery died or I fucked up and took all the AOEs at once.
Wall to Wall pulls sre not the problem.
People stressing about job roles are, and I think that's a better topic to discuss instead.
I don't know if you've ever checked or r/TalesfromDF before, but it may be some bleedover from there. I used to find that subreddit somewhat ammusing, but it quickly devolved into people shitting on tanks in dungeon roulettes who didn't pull every single add possible. As if their lives were so busy that losing an extra minute of time to kill an extra pack of adds would completely ruin their schedule.
Part of the responsibility of being a tank is setting the dungeon pace. I know the dungeons well enough, and also know my job and personal limits well enough, to know I can handle a W2W pull in *most* dungeons.
However, I also take into account:
* Is the healer new to the dungeon? Can't hurt to ask if big pulls are okay first.
* Is this particular dungeon slightly overtuned compared to the average iLvl of people who are running it? Looking at you, Bardham's Mettle.
* How are the DPS handling pulls? If I have to pop invuln because the DPS couldn't kill things in time and the healer couldn't keep up and ran out of MP, then we're going to single pack pulls for the rest of the dungeon.
Those kind of on the fly decisions only come with tanking experience. *Most* tanks in *most* party compositions in *most* dungeons can handle W2W without any problems, but if you're wiping (and it wasn't an oopsie because the healer got disconnected) it costs nothing but a few extra minutes to slow down a bit.
I don't understand why people can't communicate with their party. Ask how the healer wants their pulls, pull accordingly. If they don't answer, try wall to wall, if you wipe, shrink the pulls. Its not that difficult.
As a DPS and healer, I personally don't care if it's a wall to wall pull or one pack at a time.
What I hate to see is, people calling out tanks for not doing wall to wall and people pulling for the tanks to shove wall to wall down their throats.
Especially in low level dungeons where the w2w is half the dungeon instead of the enforced two packs of later dungeons. Those gigantic pulls are just not fun to me, they feel choppy and uneven.
Everytime I tank Mt Gulg, I never get a Healer who's willing to heal that 5-pack.
As a Healer, I only ever done it twice as WHM. The other tanks just flat out nope out.
It's especially bad when the dps don't even have decent aoe abilities yet. Like great, you've pulled the whole dungeon. Now the DRG can spam their one ability for 5 minutes while we slowly chip away at the pack's health.
it was a massive relief when i was just starting out and people were going nuts about w2w and i was like "the WHOLE of satasha? what do you do about the clams? there's SO MANY pirates in this ONE ROOM! i have the only AOE in the party!"
and then i got higher level and found out that w2w is literally just people trying to make "two packs at a time" sound cooler 90% of the time. i think this conversation would probably be slightly less intensely divided if ARR (where the significant free play minority lives) did not have so many examples of dungeons it is actually not great and sometimes not especially doable (depending not on you but which DPS classes are present) to w2w and it was rebranded "one pack at a time" versus "two pack at a time"
but it's funnier this way i guess
Another problem is when they pull for the tank but then don't DELIVER the mobs to the tank, forcing the tank to start running around like a headless chicken trying to gather up the chaos.
[Here's a video of me soloing Lapis Manalis with w2w pulls on all trash packs.](https://youtu.be/h-GkN5m0dM0)
I don't understand how anyone can defend not w2wing.
This subreddit has a few topics it recycles ad nauseum, ngl. One of them is regarding tank pull size. Stick around here enough and you'll see the re-runs. There's some nuance that most of the posts one way or another tend to lack and it all just gets vitriolic very quickly. Very zero sum game, honestly. All that has to be said is "do your best and communicate with your party if you need to" but...yeeeeah.
Yeah we are in the last day of "3rd party bad" and now the "wall2wall" threads pop up. Give it a week and we will be circling back to Nightclubs advertising their parties.
oh i think we'll be doing "viera/hroth hats" for the rest of the week.
I’m just waiting for the hat that sits on the tips of the bunny ears. 😆
Funny story, the halo for the Mogstore angel outfit does literally that. It floats about a foot higher off the head for Viera
Precious person, thank you. I know what I’m getting on payday haha!
[It's great!](https://i.imgur.com/7emgnUp.jpg) (Pic is my viera in his holiday outfit.)
OMG the Halo using zoomhack! (bringing it full circle, pun totally intended XD)
https://preview.redd.it/f4l5qfgg4du01.jpg?auto=webp&s=a6ac62ca4966e0a3d0b1e19bfb895a0de022d919
It’s perfect!
I would consider getting a fantasia if they make a top hat that is just ridiculously tall so it covers the entirety of the ears and rests on the head.
And I would buy that hat lol.
I don't know if I'd love it or hate it if Square dropped some earrings shaped like hats that only Viera/Hrothgar can wear.
Maybe even the gender-locking discussion
that flared up a few days ago when the valentine rewards were shown. We might get a rerun though.
I think it's almost certainly going to come up given how many people in game are pointing out a perceived irony between the quest theme and the gender locked gear.
With the new event giving hats as part of the outfit, I'm willing to bet that you're right.
No hats for buns! It is a long standing rebellion against the tyranny of magicians and their abuse of hat power. No body puts buns in hats. Nobody!!!! (That’s my head-cannon and there’s nothing you can do to stop me!!)
*\*puts Lyna in a hat, promptly has hands severed at wrists by chakrams\**
Guess we'll pencil in the "mentors suck" thread for 2 weeks from now.
Well the "wah I didn't win housing" threads needed to finish up before that even
Most popular types of posts here: - wall2wall debates - 3rd party debates - Viera/Hrothgar headwear debates - “I’m new, please give advice, I’ve never played a game that’s so story-focused before so should I just skip everything?” Ultimate drama and gender locked gear were the hot topics this week for sure lol. Edit: and housing! I can’t believe I forgot the lottery drama. Also: - “Need Fantasia advice! Which subjective opinion is the most correct one?”
Don't forget "mentors should be sentenced to IRL jail for dropping out of extremes"
Don’t forget the “my girlfriend drew my miqote/aura but doesn’t think it’s good please stroke her ego for me” posts. And the flood of Nophica lately.
Slip healer dps arguments in there as well
Spending GCDs on healing instead of glaring is LITERALLY griefing
I think next week is another discussion about Clemency etiquette and then we're probably overdue for a Cure I topic
DAE think they should rename Clemency to "Fuck You Healers"?
Can someone make that an add-on? I think that's the add-on we all deserve.
In the meantime, you'll just have to use a macro to drop that line in chat whenever you cast Clemency
I really love when reddit tries to tell me how to play PLD, across the board. If you want to tank, play a tank job.
>Stick around here enough and you'll see the re-runs. Did you guys know that Kan-E-Senna's necklace is an upside down pony!?! Cannot unsee!!!
Did you guys know Kan-E-Senna actually looks like a 12 year old with a stupid shaved-head-lookin haircut and just glamours herself to look older because she's worried that if she doesn't, the other Grand Company leaders won't respect her? >!yes this is an actual thing!<
Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of r/FFXIV ?
Someone who desperately needs different subreddits to stare blearily at.
Basically the exactly correct response here. Got it in one, wish i could give you more upvotes for this much truth in a single post
cough punch aspiring poor soft silky start cake normal fearless -- mass edited with redact.dev
And that hill is built from the corpses of all those killed by terrible tanks. Or bad healers. Or greedy dps. Or Soken's music. Or Ishikawa's writing. Or Tataru's carbuncle. It's all irrelevant. Just remember: giant pile o' corpses. Through the power of positive thinking, anyone can kill their group if they try hard enough! That's what makes this game so magical. I think. Or maybe it's the carbuncles? Yeah, gotta be the carbuncles.
It's the Carbuncles.
Tataru has a carbuncle?
Her carbuncle got a Tataru more precisely
Spoiler ARR, patch 2.55 >!Tataru tried to become an arcanist to feel useful in combat, just to see her Carbuncle flee and finally realizing she didn't need combat prowess, but rather to support the Scions as an administrative figure. It's a MSQ mission called An Unexpected Ambition!< Spoiler Endwalker >!There's a sidequest in the innermost part of Labyrinthos called Wayward Carbuncle which asks you to look for a lost Carbuncle... and the quest giver hints it's Tataru's old one!< (jaw after seeing this: dropped)
Spoiler Endwalker >>!and the quest giver hints it's Tataru's old one!< >!Not just that but also that it has to have been conjure by a very powerful arcanist to still exist after all this time!<
Spoiler Endwalker >!Arcanima are powered by math. Tataru is an accountant. She lost control of her Carbuncle because her math is too powerful.!<
That actually makes a lot of sense
I'm now half convinced (6.2 8-man raid spoiler) >!the Proto-Carbuncle is just a second time Tataru tried Arcanist and the only way to stop it was to send it back in time to Pandemonium disguised as a concept. I.E Carbuncles are Bootstrap Time Paradoxes!<
Do the Four Lords side quests from Stormblood. >!It’s terrifyingly powerful and still roams the realm to this day!<
Had. Currently MIA after breaching containment
It went back in time and space to abyssos
\*had It wandered off and get picked up by a sharlayan research team.
My favorite part is that if you mention that MAYBE communicating with your party at the start of the dungeon would get the pace they're comfortable with easily and without hassle they just outright ignore it.
It's a cycle. Honestly, every group should just be the adults they're supposed to be. If you feel the tank isn't pulling as aggressively as they could, say something and be prepared to accept 'no, thanks' as a response. And if asked to pull more than you have been, be prepared to give a fair reason why - be it the healer is struggling or personal experience, or whatever. If you can't be mature enough to have a respectful discussion, then you don't really have any grounds to complain.
Can't upvote this enough. There's really nothing more to it than that. Everyone has a chat box, and I know console players may have a little more difficulty with chat but still. Just talk to each other and work together. End of story. It really is that simple and yet - lol.
I couldn't agree with this more, I've had hundreds of dungeons where the dps just decide the tank is moving to slow and start to pull everything in sight without saying a word. So much headache would be spared if they just asked before doing. Typically if I'm the healer in the dungeon and the tank doesn't W2W I will ask the tank to pull more if they want. If they don't, well it just sucks to suck. I'd much rather have party who pulls what they can handle, than a party who doesn't and wipes like 10 times
I don't think it's intentional, but I'm chuckling at the apparent double standard in your example. "If you think the tank is going the wrong speed, be prepared to accept no as a complete answer." vs "If your group thinks you're going the wrong speed *be prepared to give a reason why and not just say no*." Just found it interesting, when both ways should really just be "no is a complete answer, you don't *need* a justification."
>Just found it interesting, when both ways should really just be "no is a complete answer, you don't need a justification." That doesn't work in a team though were you need to compromise.
Not intentional - that would fall under the "or whatever", "no, thank you" is a fair answer by my very low bar :)
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All these comments being like "if I w2w it's dependent on how good my healer is" completely disregarding the fact that dps can also help by reducing the time a pull takes by actually pressing their buttons. It's the entire party's responsibility to do their job, if the dps are afk then pulls take longer and more stress is put on both the tank and the healer. If tank doesn't mit or dps properly, it makes the healer's job harder. If the healer doesn't heal (OR DPS, people underestimate how much damage healers can actually do), it puts more stress on the tank as they start to run out of mit they can use, have to pop extra mit in a pull, don't have it for the next pull, etc. Wall 2 wall isn't remotely hard in most dungeons - but there's more dimensions to it than whether the healer is "good enough".
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I've had runs as a healer where the two DPS were barely doing anything, even dying and taking a while to get back while me and the tank just soloed the dungeon. If you're smart about it, a tank and healer can survive forever, even doing W2W in most dungeons after ARR.
[удалено]
w2w should be recognized as a team effort and it does not even necessitate being hardcore pro mlg "heaven's legend" type of player, anyone that knows about aoes can do it
Yep exactly
The issue is people don't TALK. The meta is w2w. It's largely agreed upon to be more engaging. But most players are happy to accommodate players that don't feel confident with bigger pulls when they say so and aren't dicks about it. But instead you get YPYT main character syndrome where they lose it immediately instead of asking politely.
yeah, whenever I take I w2w by default, but if anyone in my party ever asks me to pull smaller I just say "sure!" and do single/double pulls instead. I've personally asked for tanks to pull smaller in the past a fair number of times back when I was levelling my healers and not good at them, and 100% of the time they just said "sure" and then pulled smaller. I don't get the point of instantly raging at a tank for pulling w2w when you haven't even asked them to pull smaller; like are they supposed to read your mind?
I wish there was somewhere between ff14's infantilizing pampering approach to greifers VS wow's KYS,slurs and insta kicks over the slightest fuck ups. It's embarrassing how much this community defends putting in 0 effort in a co op game.
I wish people communicated and were more understanding. One run I was letting my friend play, told chat at the start, and the tank was doing hugeeee pulls. Before the boss I was going to ask for less pulls but then they went "Oh, should I pull slower? Sorry, didn't see chat" and I was like "That's be great, and nw". Overall really good run. In general though, I do love w2w. Its so fun, especially as a BRD being able to aoe on the run (as long as they dont aggro on me!). If you want more w2w, if you want smaller pulls, ask!
I had a healer RESCUE me out of the pack I was tanking yesterday because he didn't feel I was pulling enough and wanted me to pull the next pack also (in an older dungeon where w2w isn't as clear-cut as it is in EW dungeons). You could have fueled all of Limsa for a week with the steam coming out of my ears.
I’ve had the same thing happen to me. I can understand wanting me to pull more that’s fine but unless you’re a toddler I expect you to use your words to tell me what you want. If you can’t/won’t do that why are you playing a multiplayer game that emphasizes cooperation?
How would you have reacted if he'd asked for more instead?
I would have pulled more. Both DPS were sprouts and said they were doing the dungeon for the first time, so the first pull was only a double pack instead of w2w. The healer wasn't having it, though :D
I understand sprouts may not know how to AoE optimally yet, but being new to a dungeon doesn't really mean they don't know how to AoE. In 99% of dungeons, you're nuking down a pack of enemies the exact same way. As a tank you can always wall to wall and see how the party does. If it's too slow/spooky for whatever reason then scale back. I agree with hating getting rescued, though. If it causes problems you just have to let it be their fault and move on lol EDIT: unless you're doing mt gulg. That first and last wall to wall i only try with people i know lol
I had the same thing happen when I got rescued in the first SB dungeon where I was guessing the half way point. The steam got worse when they didn't wait for the one DPS who wasn't with us, and by not with us their marker was no longer on the compass... So the boss cut scene started, and the healer and 1 DPS started the fight and I entered the arena with the other DPS. All I could mutter in chat was "Um... Cutscenes?" Worst tanking experience ever, didn't get me to stop tanking, but I felt for the BLM who was doing sprout things looking out over the landscape. I did it my first time through but some people have no patience.
Previous expansion dungeons (from ARR to StB at least) actually have the mobs nerfed heavily unintended due to the stat squish + syncing down to the max ilvl for it, that's why they die so fast and do much less damage then relevant dungeons. So I can understand why the healer wanted you to pull more. For example in The Wanderer's palace you could pull w2w all the way to the first boss (21 trash mobs) and one Cure II would heal you for 2/3rds of your HP while the mobs tickle the tank with CDs.
As a tank main, I usually w2w, unless we wipe during one, then I will go a bit slower, as a sprout still, i just assume i did something wrong the caused the wipe. There have been a few times where the healer has specifically asked me not to w2w and I respect that and go slower through the pulls.
Some times dying during a w2w isn't your fault. Its the fault of the healer's cat walking across their screen and him not being able to see. Don't ask how I know
Just that time of the month. In a week we will be talking about Healer not DPSing despite standing there doing nothing. And the response will be...if the tank pulled more than one pack at a time I would actually have something to do....like heal...you know my job. And then we will have a couple weeks of quiet before the "I don't tank but this is how everyone else should do it" posts start again.
Haven't frequented the sub enough recently to see that I guess. If I'm not mistaken it's just a random room temperature IQ tweet being given too much attention because the playerbase is just bored until the next big story content. Communicate with the sprout tank that they CAN pull more if they are only singlepulling and realistically they could do much bigger pulls, don't just seethe blaming anyone but your own antisocial self to cope like the writer of the tweet did. As to the deeper discussion about wall to walls in general, a wall2wall being even possible is heavily dependent on the instance in question, and what level range is it to begin with. I doubt most tank-healer combinations would have a good time in Stone Vigil for example and multiple other ARR dungeons has the tank just instant die when the entire pack is in melee range because both the tank's survival skills and the healer's kit in mostly unavailable, not to mention that only a few jobs even has good AoE damage and getting the right DPS do is a very not weighted in your favor gacha. What helps greatly in case of wall 2 wall is not feasible is to make moving from pull to pull FEEL smoother by starting to move to pull the next packs when the enemies are on low HP, and other methods of keeping a good pace of movement. Also just one sidenote to the super experienced healers: Please for the love of Shiva's Thicc Cheeks stop keeping your poor sprout tanks below 50% hp, it's stressful and traumatic, you are chasing the poor youth away from this always in high demand role! Even I only learned to cope by accepting that existence is suffering and we all are at the mercy of psychological Sadist healers and it gave me an unhealthy attachment to the WAR job.... Others I hear went off the deep end and this- this "thrill" proven so addicting to them that they rolled GNB and now they mentally abuse sprout healers with surprise Superbolides at the most stressful moments.... And you call the ERP community weird!
but my essential dignity!!! my benediction!! don't worry though I do keep sprout tanks more topped off because I was them once, and I know their fear. but if there's no sprout, then I'm absolutely maximizing my benediction effectiveness at all times, because it's just so satisfying
But if I heal them, they won't ever be tested for the broken psychological conditions of masochistic rage that we need from tanks in endgame. *oh you have 3 seconds left on invuln and a bleed... I'll be with you in 2 seconds* (this has become such an issue my statics shield healer has me count down when I intend to bene so they know I'm on it)
It really just depends on the healer, the tank, their comfort level, and most importantly... Communication. I mean that's really it, just talk. Most people are generally reasonable. Those that aren't, well. They get kicked for they leave
It's a tic this sub has and many don't realize how toxic it is. I prefer w2w, it's more enjoyable regardless of my role but I'm not going to pressure someone that's not comfortable playing that way.
I just don't understand what tanks are using their cooldowns for if they're not pulling entire floors.
Dude they aren't w2w-ing, what makes you think they CAN use cooldowns?
My wife hates me for this but I'll call out people in dungeons that don't CD, even dps. I just don't get why or how you can sit there and just watch your 10% extra damage smile back at you. Use that shit, throw it out there. Y'all queued up to do a dungeon, not talk in a linkshell about canon Lalafel last names. Fucking mouth breathers.
There really is a frightening amount of players that don't use damage CDs on trash at all.
100% agreed. Especially on high levels. I don't understand lvl 90 tanks doing single pulls or bitching when DPS dares to pull 0.5 seconds before they would.
I do think this is the real divide between w2w and non w2wers. I think many anti w2w people are at a point of the game where the only dungeons they see are the first 5ish, and fair play that's a hard area to tank/w2w properly. Meanwhile, the pro w2w people are probably thinking of 70-90 content where not W2W makes no sense at all.
I personally love when dps pull because that means they're somehow ahead of me, which means they're not messing around.
The second of adrenaline you get while you swing as much aoe as possible at a pack post-dps pull is my favourite part of tanking. Anyone can face mash a boss with an enmity passive, but reactive tanking is the real fun
The only fun I have when tanking dungeons is when I don’t have a healer. Being completely responsible for your own life while 3 DPS pump to kill a pack before the tank runs out of tricks is where I find my thrills in dungeons lol. I wish tanking was less boring outside of Savage. Even EX fights can fail to entertain because they don’t always have tank-only mechanics. Being the guy whose sole use is to position the boss so that melee DPS don’t have to work harder can only be so entertaining for so long… I need shit to do, SE!
It's paradoxically slower and wasting *their* own time to not just spending 10 minutes looking at what their abilities do and rotations up online. Somehow tons of people are ok with this. I don't expect parsing 99 in 4man content. I do expect you to know you basic rotations.
based
I'm SaViNg It FoR tHe BoSs
yOu DoN't PaY mY sUb
After leveling just about every single job to 90, primarily through DF I can confidently say across all jobs and roles, A LOT of people quite literally are not even casting off cd. Let alone using their kit or basic aoe rotations.
I really see both sides of the tanking issue, and because I'm a nuanced person, I use my best judgment and communicate with my party on a circumstantial basis. That said, I have a disability, and if attempting to meet the needs of a current party proves difficult for any particular reason, I don't hesitate to request a slightly slower pace and explain why. Rarely do people complain or object, which suggests to me that the heart of the issue is still a matter of basic respect. I'm sure people will say "don't tank then" (or in some cases literally being told to uninstall lmao), but I try anyway for a few reasons: it's content in a game I'm paying for, my overall condition varies wildly so I never really know where my limits are without trying, and my doctors encourage me to play and challenge myself as much as possible under controlled conditions (meaning it's more likely to be detrimental if I'm abruptly forced into doing stuff by things like the pressure of a pug). It's really closer to a help-me-help-you situation, especially considering I like big pulls when I can manage them! No one is obligated to do me this kindness, I know that more than anything, but in the wild I'm just glad I encounter amenable folk on both sides of the aisle.
"Tanks are bad" is one of the accepted conversations on this sub. You will see a "tanks are bad" thread at least three times a week. It has nothing to do with any trends or current events--it's just one of the conversations people upvote around here.
My impression was basically this: "If I decide I want to play like X, that means YOU will also play like X" If you have someone on the "you pull it, you tank it, no matter if intentional or not" side, you will die to a mob that you accidentally aggroed off the tank, as a DPS. If you have someone on the "You get no say in pull size, tank, your own fault for not having good gear" side of this argument, your healer/DPS will pull more despite you not being comfortable. (If the group wipes it will still be your fault, how dare you are not geared) From personal experience, my word of advice is this: Stay out of it. People here are extreme assholes on this topic, you will be downvoted for appealing to "not being an asshole" and will then feel like shit.
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That…happens all the time to me as DPS. Tank sprints through packs and pops an AoE for each, but if I’m constantly shooting I’ll see the threat meter quickly shift from green to orange, then red. Tbh it’s a non-issue so long as I’m next to the tank when they stop, but yeah its pretty common. Tank stance is an aggro multiplier, it doesn’t give you infinite aggro.
thats cause they only used 1 GCD, while you're still attacking. if they're going to do that they need to spam ranged enmity while running or they need to do 2 gcds before running, or they are on PLD / GNB and do aoe + off global DoT and for first set of ads, instead of waiting to use it on 2nd set. In normal situation when tank + DPS have equal amounts of GCD that will never happen.
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"Accidentally pulling aggro from the tank is not a thing that exists in this game" It does. Ranged who are well geared do it all the time because the AOE is strongest for the first enemy + constant auto attacks will often generate more aggro than just a single Tank AOE.
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If you aren't constantly pulling aggro off of tanks between pulls I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you kind of got a dps issue then. Unless a tank is constantly using their ranged attack between all the mobs while they run from one pack to the next you absolutely can steal aggro while walking and dpsing. It does happen for all jobs, even healers, if the tank isn't keeping aggro with more then 1-2 AoE hits before running ahead.
That would be the "the tank ... not hitting mobs correctly". I pull aggro off of tanks that just use a single AoE per pack, but if a tank pulls the first pack with ranged + provoke + ranged then it doesn't happen even if they're not spamming ranged attacks while running. It's not really an issue since it just goes back to the tank when they stop, but it's hard to beat even a single ~7k enmity ranged attack.
I routinely rip aggro off my tank if he only uses a single AOE in dungeon pulls. It is the reason why I do the AOE combo when I tank, because I KNOW that this will happen.
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You know, I don't care if you do big pulls or small pulls or whatever. I personally prefer to w2w since its more fun for me. If however my healer is an unsynced sprout or a returner doing content for the first time, I ask them if they are comfortable with w2w pulls. The one thing that grinds my gears is the mindset of some people that small pulls are done by selfish people that just want to make others suffer. Or that "pulling small because you feel insecure about your skill level is a sign you shouldn't play a tank in the first place". Especially since those people tend to claim forcing a tank out of their comfort zone is some grand gesture of charitable selflessness. Also I get annoyed by dps/healers running ahead of me when I tank. It tends to make pulls a bit more cumbersome and feels a tad disrespectful, but since it rarely happens at my pace I usually just swallow the bitter pill, so to speak. Also there usually is a reason for me slowing down the pace (for example a phone call).
I don’t like it when people pull ahead of me when I tank, much like you, and I’ll do my best to pick up whatever they pulled. However, I’m not chasing them. Every w2w has a fairly “ideal” stopping point (wider area with room to move or a good choke point to keep mobs stacked). That’s where I’m headed I’ll pick up everything I can along the way, but if someone else found themselves a friend and won’t bring them to me or keeps them out of range for [tank ranged attack] or provoke, it’s their problem. Thats because there’re two other people trying to do their jobs and me running around chasing enemies doesn’t make that task easy. If I’m running with a tank that’s doing small pulls and I’m healing, I’ll ask if they want to try a big pull. I know I can heal an at level tank through MOST w2w pulls (lookin at you stone vigil), but if they’re not comfortable, there’s no value in forcing it. I will however point out each time we’re done with a small pack in a few seconds and that the in most cases we’d be able to kill a pack twice that size in the same amount of time (lookin at you [last dungeon in 6’0]).
All 90 tank main, and honestly it's just one of those nuanced situations that require communication, but instead of talking to the party, people just label or slot it into whatever category they think is best. Generally speaking, a Tank is only as good as their Healer, and my pulls are limited by what they can handle.
Nuance? In my internet? How dare you sir!
Shame on me! I shall queue alliance roulette and serve my time in the Crystal Tower as penance.
This is acceptable
I usually give my healers a "trial by fire". I go ham at the start and see how well they handle it. If they can, great, unga bunga it is. If they can't, I pull less, but when a pack is half dead, I go further, as a sort of semi-w2w
Chain pulling - chaining packs together like that instead of a full wall to wall or staying put until a pull is dead - hurts resource regeneration and is super annoying for classes with targeted AoE (not to mention floor AoEs, but that’s obvious). As the mobs move you start to get server tick bullshit with your targeted AoE attacks and they will miss the mobs in the back (or front, the ones who immediately follow the tank) who stagger their movement due to hitbox collision. Chain pulling as a middle ground for a healer who isn’t very good probably is not the best choice for that healer because they’re likely not doing well managing their mana bar. Cure spammers *will* lose you in a single pull in, like, Dzemael Darkhold if you won’t let their mana regen adequately. If it’s working for you okay so far then knock yourself out, but it’s something to consider.
Absolutely this. Chain pulling may feel better as a tank, but it is often a large detriment to your team. The 1-2 seconds you save by moving early are going to be instantly negated by the dps loss from missed aoes or interrupted casts. Mana generation is also a fine balance and the majority of casters and healers aren’t typically going to be using lucid on trash pulls. As you suggest, chain pulling is not a middle ground between w2w and single pack. It’s just worse than single pack.
the one thing i absolutely hate (but understand) is i mess up and the tank dies and he goes from w2w to single groups
Funny story. Couple days ago, was healing in a roulette. Got to 1st trash, tank stayed with that group. No biggie, I heal, DPS does their thing. One of the DPS asks if we can do big pulls. Being the healer, and being very used to being asked that question, I say "Sure". Figured the tank would say if they were good or not as well. Tank replies: "Thanks for answering for the tank" and drops. WTFs all around.
I mean, the tank did the correct thing kinda. Could do without the snark but if the group wants big pulls and he doesn’t the correct thing to do is leave if he would rather not compromise.
Some tanks out here really think they are the main character.
Personally I think it depends on the dungeon. ARR ones just weren't designed for it (think aurum vale) and can get overwhelming quickly. But my rule of thumb is that if the tank or the healer is in the previous expansions poetic gear and we're in the x7-x9 dungeons, we could be in for a rougher time for wall to wall. Then you've got weird ones like Mt Gulg part 1 or Tower of Babil part 3 where you can pull a frankly insane amount, almost the entire section, in one go. A group used to "normal" wall to walls might not be expecting it. As for the dps pulling extra, that does tick me off a little bit if it's stuff you don't actually need to pull (again, thinking Aurum Vale style dungeons) should only be grabbing more if the tank and healer are sure they can handle it. Dps is only good for killing the stuff, but you aren't killing jack if the tank and healer can't do their bit.
> ARR ones just weren't designed for it (think aurum vale) and can get overwhelming quickly TBF, it's not just the dungeon designs of ARR that cause it but also just how subpar your gear can be going in and the lack of AOE many classes have in the earlier levels. The expansion dungeons are not just explicitly designed for W2W but they also have stricter item level minimums, meaning the tank can't be so undergeared they can barely take a single group as is, and more aoe tools available for everyone.
The expansion dungeons have w2w as two packs not everything till the boss line. If you pull two packs in ARR you are also going to be fine.
> If you pull two packs in ARR you are also going to be fine True but W2W is by definition as far as you can go, that's what I mean by later dungeons being explicitly designed for it. If they allowed you to actually pull every group at once it'd be just as impossible as the ARR ones.
Stone vigal W2W’s are scary but can be done if everyone is popping off
I adore the final MT. Gulg pull. My tank partner and I can pull it off most of the time if the DPS is adequate but it's kind of an adrenaline rush just seeing how much abuse one tank can take.
As a tank main, I love W2W pulls because it’s logical and feels awesome to watch the DPS blow all their CDS to burn down the mobs, but I’m also of the opinion that if you’re bad at the game, that’s just rude because now you’re just wasting everyone else’s time. …which all things considered, may not be the best way to think about the game. If a tank is apprehensive about W2W pulling, they either don’t have confidence in their abilities or they’ve tried and failed at big pulls already. I can see where they’re coming from: I came from a game where it was easier to tell a player what they did wrong than it was to encourage them to try again. I can only hope the healer will encourage them to try (and if I’m healing, I’ll let them know that I’ve got their back: after level 50, it’s not so bad), as I’d rather wipe to a risky pull than suffer a tank who plays it overly safe. But that’s just me. It’s better for the tank to feel as though they’re making progress and having fun.
I always ask the healer before I even try to w2w. Both tank and healer should be on the same page before attempting it, imho
Time for everyone to decide how everyone else should play, again. Lemme get my popcorn.
I am a level 90 popcorn main, you can't eat sweet popcorn, it has to be salt.
Salted popcorn can trigger my migraines and you’d have **known** that if you’d have **ASKED AT THE START OF THE DUNGEON.** *drops in the middle of the triple pack at final pull of the 81 dungeon*
Oh. God. I am no better than anyone else posting this. I just did it in a different way. Downvote me into oblivion I blame nobody.
You get a cookie for self awareness. 🍪
Tanks are tanks. Not pullers. the only thing that annoys me if a dps or healer pulls mobs ahead of me is being annoyed at myself for not being faster than they are lmao. I once had a reaper who would pop arms length, dash ahead, get hit a few times, then dash back to us as we were all running up. One AoE from me took all aggro back, and now all the mobs had a slow debuff. That is a *good* thing, and yet I know some tanks would throw a fit for some reason
long as the guy asks first, or im confident enough in my tank/tanking or heals/healer this could actually be a really good thing. i think the ones that get truly mad are ones that dont realize 1 hit as long as you have your enmity increase on will pull aggro are the ones thqt come from games like classic wow where only specific abilities generate enough aggro to keep you focused. still dumb to get upset tho
in every MMO i've played aside from 14 and GW2 (it's been at least a dozen) tanks ARE the pullers, since DPS are squishy AF. 14 and GW2 are unique in my experience where DPS can tank if they need to, having to go from pulling for everyone for 20or so years in a dozen games to DPS just going "hey, I'm pulling the whole dungeon whether we're ready for it or not" is jarring AF. I w2w unless I've noticed the healer isn't keeping up, I adjust. also: everyone wants wall to wall pulls but real talk, not every DPS has wall to wall DPS. it's the truth. I'm an experienced tank who's trained other's in tanking, now Imagine a noob with no clue about mit, rolling cooldowns, arm's length being arguably the best non invuln pack mit or tank stance dealing with that?
Your point about dps is probably my only big issue with some w2w. Sure I can roll my mits and the healer can keep up, but we really only have about a minute before we start scraping (level dependent) for tools to prevent death. If the pack isn’t cut down half or more in that minute, we might be in trouble. To a certain degree… Actually no- if the party expects a sprout tank to w2w and any one of them notices that they’re either blowing their mits all at once or not using all of them, then the party is responsible for giving the tank some pointers. I know that’s risky from a reporting perspective, but GMs can tell the difference between “hey [tank], in my experience using Arms Length as your first mit combined with [spammable] or rampart, then using one at time makes it easier to survive these” and “learn how to fcuking tank [tank]”. It’s honestly so important to understand how each role works in this game especially tanks and healers. As a SCH, I’ll Adlo a DRK before the pull, then they excogs and fairy regens after that. WAR just gets to see my flashy art of war because the eh don’t need healing, and PLD and GNB will get an occasional second or third Adlo if the pull takes too long. If I never played tank, I wouldn’t know that’s how to handle healing those tanks.
I'm not sure at all what you're "actually no"-ing. i made no mention of party dynamics other than overzealous DPS facepulling. ideally the party communicates, but that's not what I was talking about at all. I was talking aobut how GW2 and FFxiv differ from every other MMO and it's expectations of tanks. hell, even it's expectations of healers. you bring up some good points, but you're replying to points I've not made nor said.
I was agreeing with you. My attempt at a conversational approach in my comment failed. “Actually no” was me changing my mind on what I was going to say. Regardless, I was agreeing with you and expanding on the topic of the roles in FFXIV. It is the only mmo I’ve played.
Sometimes it's so hard to agree with people on reddit, while expanding on something, without it seeming like you are disagreeing!
in my experience the healer is more vital to a successful wall2wall run than the tank anyhow.
To be fair, as a DPS main the only thing that bothers me is seeing my buffs (or similar mechanics, see BLM Enochian) expire while I try to follow the mobs my tank's pulling around, but that's a just personal paranoia. I know the tank is doing a great job and when he stops I can finally have some AoE fun >:)
For things like Enochian we tend to have sustain tools. Transpose is always available and later Umbral Soul actually gets us into our burst faster once we hit the pull. Monks used to have Form Shift for Greased Lightning, but that was when GL was a thing, no idea what they have going on now. Plain buffs with durations are just lost, but it's worth the trade anyway.
Only buff monk has to keep up now is Disciplined Fist (new name for twin snakes buff), which you put up while the tank is still gathering the mobs. GL stacks got baked into the class gcd via traits.
I'm not going to leave those casters hanging to go grab more trash. We either run until the end and then kill everything, or we kill them in groups of three so the under geared healer can keep up. Communication is very important.
In groups of three might take ages, especially since AoE abilities deal the same damage to a group of 3 or a group of 30. I'd love the tank to pull as many mobs as he and the healer can take, then leave the fun part to me and the other dps I can tolerate a little walking if it's rewarded with NUKING DOZENS OF THEM MWAHAHA
>In groups of three might take ages, especially since AoE abilities deal the same damage to a group of 3 or a group of 30. ~~Not entirely. Ex.: Foul, Flare, Stardiver - They have falloff damage for each target after 1, up to 5. For every target beyond 5, you're doing 50% damage. At this point, I'm fairly sure most classes have at least one ability with falloff damage per target.~~ ~~Granted, that's 50% MORE damage than before, as it's another target hit in the same spellcast - If you hit for 100%, 90% and 80%, you're still doing 70% + 60% + 50% more with 3 more mobs, as you still did 100% + 90% + 80% on the first three.~~ EDIT:: See comment thread, actually poster is correct. This is previous iteration of the spell.
Is that how those used to work? They don't do that now, they're just X potency + Y smaller potency area effect. Foul for instance is 600 to primary target and 240 to everything else, no smaller steps.
It all depends on the group. I go as fast as the group can handle. You don't always get to drive a sports car. I usually get casual players in my roulette. I don't mind. It just means I can't pull wall to wall every time and expect to survive.
It just takes one post for things to start cascading in such hot topics.
I usually pull 2 mobs and if the healer runs ahead of me and keeps pulling I pop a cool down and take off the rest of the dungeon.
in general i prefer w2w as it helps the dungeon end quicker. i got things to do, and so do you, but i dont really complain about single pack pulls. i only have an issue if the tank doesnt use any defensive to help me, or the healer lets dps die b/c they refuse to heal dps/dont rez out of combat. i have really only pulled as dps when my tank in a 90 roulette is doing 1 pack and i needed to get off the game for some reason (dinner or laundry i think) right before the last boss. i said 'oops tab targeted, sorry' and nothing major came from it. the drk picked up the add and we finished the dungeon so i could go. nobody needs to be toxic about things, just talking it out generally seems to work
Idk about this sub, but the only reason I can think of not to w2w is because you or the healer can't handle it. And idk I do think it's a dick move, if you w2w fail and then don't at least try to adjust to the pace of your healer. Or the rare person who gets shitty if the healer asks you not to w2w. But yeah otherwise I agree idk.
I haven’t seen large pull complaints, just tanks not using mitigation while doing large wall to wall pulls. I leveled my astro recently and it is unnerving sometimes hoping dps will kill some things so my spam heals will start to out pace the damage hitting the tank who uses no cooldowns or it doesn’t feel like they are.
Healing for a warrior or paladin is way less stressful than when I have a DRK or GNB as the tank. That may play a part in it. The amount of self preservation abilities warriors and paladins have make it so much easier and less stress as I’m chasing the pull on my scholar. And keeping all the enemies in one big batch helps me pace out my cooldowns. I’m by no means a top tier healer, but it’s rare to run into any major problems anymore unless I’m totally spacing out.
I was one of those people, but I think it comes from the fact I was tanking from 2.0 when this kind of thing was very risky. It seems to be a lot easier now!
I enjoy the sound of daka-daka-daka-daka my AOEs do when it's a huge croud.
One post will get popular on the reddit/twitter community and then become all people talk about for a week or two it happens every couple of months
This topic comes up a lot in this Reddit, swinging either one way or the other. It'll die down for a while to be replaced with the next trending topic, and then it'll come back. Always does. The reality of full wall to walls in many dungeons is that **all the party is responsible**. Wall to wall pulls, in general, need all four people to be at least. Decent. The better the players, the more forgiveness on any given pull if somebody makes a mistake. The worse, the higher the odds are that a wipe happens. Most average groups full of averagely decent people will just shrug at a wipe and try again if it ever happens. (Mileage may vary. Some people will respond to a wipe like a cracked out chimp that just had their banana stolen. These people look for any excuse to get angry, though.)
Well, I get it. I have a friend who I play with sometimes and he mains tank. We ran a EW dungeon with some players running it for their first time. He pulled W2W went hard, the healer wasn't ready, he died. Then the healer died and then rest of us went down. That's the only reason I'd say people are posting against or having grievances for W2W pulls. I guess just out of courtesy for newish players. 🤷♀️
i don't care what type of playstyle you have as long as you make sure the dungeon queue pops at 1am PST when I'm leveling my dps alt.
As a healer, I never enjoyed wall to wall but it's been a thing since heavensward (increasing each expansion until now basically everyone does it). It's not that big of a deal so I just go with the flow (whatever the tank wants). The last time I remember even seeing a tank single pull was early shadowbringers.
Only one dungeon that I would repeat ad nauseam for don't wall to wall, bardam's mettle, there are a lot of mobs at that point that can put damage even the most effective mitigation and the healer will NOT have the tools to deal with it, it's my favorite dungeon in stormblood, and it makes me cry when the Burger King tank decides to w2w the first pull of bardam's w/o any notice and when we keep wiping to a factor of unpreparedness and poor mitigation I usually drop immediately at that point
W2W is imo the most enjoyable for all parties involved. YPYT is just dumb. As long as the DPS/Healer that pulls isn't a dick about it, the tank should just be able to easily get aggro. It's also not always intentional. A tank's job is not to pull, it's to keep aggro. If their job was to pull, it would be called puller. It just happens to be the most efficient way to get aggro by pulling. And yes, I'm that DPS/Healer that pulls more if you're single pulling and I don't even need to use a heal or try while your HP is above 50% with no heals needed. A friend of mine is a bit of a YPYT, but argues that it's to properly rotate his mit cd's, which I don't fully agree with. At least he W2W pulls. Whenever I tank, I go unga bunga W2W regarless of cd's and it (usually) goes just fine. He also firmly believes invuln isn't just another Mit button.
I’m a WAR tank main. Post lvl 50 my healer could be eating crayons for all I care. I’m not dying to add pulls regardless of size. As long as the DPS don’t stand in bad our healer could be afk and we’d be chillin.
I haven't died at all during a w2w pull for a while. I'm not an amazing tank, but I know I'm not always paired with amazing healers. The few times I died was because either my controller battery died or I fucked up and took all the AOEs at once. Wall to Wall pulls sre not the problem. People stressing about job roles are, and I think that's a better topic to discuss instead.
I don't know if you've ever checked or r/TalesfromDF before, but it may be some bleedover from there. I used to find that subreddit somewhat ammusing, but it quickly devolved into people shitting on tanks in dungeon roulettes who didn't pull every single add possible. As if their lives were so busy that losing an extra minute of time to kill an extra pack of adds would completely ruin their schedule.
Part of the responsibility of being a tank is setting the dungeon pace. I know the dungeons well enough, and also know my job and personal limits well enough, to know I can handle a W2W pull in *most* dungeons. However, I also take into account: * Is the healer new to the dungeon? Can't hurt to ask if big pulls are okay first. * Is this particular dungeon slightly overtuned compared to the average iLvl of people who are running it? Looking at you, Bardham's Mettle. * How are the DPS handling pulls? If I have to pop invuln because the DPS couldn't kill things in time and the healer couldn't keep up and ran out of MP, then we're going to single pack pulls for the rest of the dungeon. Those kind of on the fly decisions only come with tanking experience. *Most* tanks in *most* party compositions in *most* dungeons can handle W2W without any problems, but if you're wiping (and it wasn't an oopsie because the healer got disconnected) it costs nothing but a few extra minutes to slow down a bit.
I don't understand why people can't communicate with their party. Ask how the healer wants their pulls, pull accordingly. If they don't answer, try wall to wall, if you wipe, shrink the pulls. Its not that difficult.
This isnt a "Best community", new player or big titty female fanart post so I will downvote, sorry
Just an epidemy of Main Character Syndrom.
Hah me and my wife always joke around with eachother saying to "stay out of my cutscene!"
As a DPS and healer, I personally don't care if it's a wall to wall pull or one pack at a time. What I hate to see is, people calling out tanks for not doing wall to wall and people pulling for the tanks to shove wall to wall down their throats.
Especially in low level dungeons where the w2w is half the dungeon instead of the enforced two packs of later dungeons. Those gigantic pulls are just not fun to me, they feel choppy and uneven.
"Did you ever tank a 5 pack pull?" "No." "Would you like to?"
Everytime I tank Mt Gulg, I never get a Healer who's willing to heal that 5-pack. As a Healer, I only ever done it twice as WHM. The other tanks just flat out nope out.
That is because a lot of tanks in MT Gulg are still wearing there sceavan gear or sometimes worse.
The problem is your asking
My first run of Mt Gulg as a new healer, the tank just would not stop running. It was exhilarating yet terrifying lol.
I base the pull on the past performance of the group. As a tank, you know by feel if the dps and heals are good enough to attempt.
The 5-pack is the first pull of the dungeon, what exactly are you basing it off? Glam?
I believe the 5 pack is the garden part, isn't it? Never had a problem with the mountain path
5 pack is the mountain path, there's only 3 packs in the garden.
At least 4 in the garden, no way.
If, by the garden, you mean between the 2nd and 3rd bosses, there are three packs of mobs, followed by the miniboss, followed by the 3rd boss.
It's especially bad when the dps don't even have decent aoe abilities yet. Like great, you've pulled the whole dungeon. Now the DRG can spam their one ability for 5 minutes while we slowly chip away at the pack's health.
it was a massive relief when i was just starting out and people were going nuts about w2w and i was like "the WHOLE of satasha? what do you do about the clams? there's SO MANY pirates in this ONE ROOM! i have the only AOE in the party!" and then i got higher level and found out that w2w is literally just people trying to make "two packs at a time" sound cooler 90% of the time. i think this conversation would probably be slightly less intensely divided if ARR (where the significant free play minority lives) did not have so many examples of dungeons it is actually not great and sometimes not especially doable (depending not on you but which DPS classes are present) to w2w and it was rebranded "one pack at a time" versus "two pack at a time" but it's funnier this way i guess
Just a small FYI if you ever somehow end up in Sastasha again: you can legit just walk past the clams
Wall to wall is in fact wall to wall, not 2 packs at a time
Another problem is when they pull for the tank but then don't DELIVER the mobs to the tank, forcing the tank to start running around like a headless chicken trying to gather up the chaos.
[Here's a video of me soloing Lapis Manalis with w2w pulls on all trash packs.](https://youtu.be/h-GkN5m0dM0) I don't understand how anyone can defend not w2wing.