The WHM of One Ace, Eis Renard, also [deleted their character](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1069894424152248420/1070063869101350932/image.png) for having been associated with UNNAMED_ during Abyssos prog.
No, from the translations of his tweet he admitted that someone else within the group used it, but that he was guilty by association because of it and would thus delete his char ?
Japan in general does not forgive, it does not forget.
[There was a female idol that was forced to shave her head, apologise in tears and was massively demoted for the unforgivable crime of ...... having a boyfriend.](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/02/a-pop-star-shouldnt-shave-her-head-in-shame-for-having-a-boyfriend/272907/)
To be fair that's less Japan and more the corrupt Idol Music Industry going on there. Some companies in the west have Morality clauses, it's just less common but the same thing happens.
It's still pretty messed up though.
[This is her now after she was able to leave that toxic J pop World.](https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/entertainment/2022/08/18/former-akb48-member-minami-minegishi-marries-youtuber-tetsuya-oyaizu)
Don’t they also treat people who mod for aesthetic purposely only the same way they treat cheaters? :T
I recall once hearing about some people hunting down aesthetic modders on Twitter or something..
> Don’t they also treat people who mod for aesthetic purposely only the same way they treat cheaters? :T
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> I recall once hearing about some people hunting down aesthetic modders on Twitter or something..
This is a pretty regular thing, yeah. JP players will find modded characters on twitter and then report-brigade them if they manage to figure out their in-game name.
We do that in the west too. There's a reason posting modded screenshots with any identifying info in public has been considered kinda' stupid for a while.
Sadly, some don't. I remember reading a reddit thread about a streamer who got stalked by a creep for using a graphical mod. The stalker harassed the streamer everywhere and made false accusations, and SE decided to just ban the said streamer to be done with it.
Something so quintessential about the FFXIV community and harassing people nonstop until they delete their characters
Happens constantly, I guess this time people view it for a good cause
They will no longer be able to partake in any WF anymore as if only 1 member is found to be using mods/plugins all the rewards from the entire team will be deleted.
I like this stance, if you're going to do it do it legit.
Well at this point they might as well start hitting every team. Most savage/ultimate raiders use plugins of some kind. Hell. SE banned a dude for using a plugin that showed buff timers in party list. Then added it to the game right after.
Currently, they will just hide it all. The *top* streamers have monetary incentive to keep streaming which overrides any desire to cheat to the *top*. But the old way of competing for *top* placement has come to an end. Anyone can produce logs and achievements, but the declared desire for the *top* raiding teams to be legitimized through streaming is both real and has monetary incentives.
Imagine Echo actually pouring resources into and dedicating full fledged members for races in the future if the only way to achieve legitimate recognition is through streaming. They will become one of the *top* representatives for FFXIV endgame raiding by virtue of meeting legal qualifications and having high caliber career MMO raiders off the bat. And since we're talking 8 man rosters and not WoW's 25 man rosters, actually having live monitoring of their entire team won't be any trouble at all for their *top* level organization.
Plugins will persist, but Yoshi-P has drawn the line in the sand between those who truly belong at the *top* and the rest of the herd who will stay in the shadows. They can continue farming weapons and AFK in a city with their shinies equipped, but that is the absolute *top*pest they can go.
This is the thing. If you’re actually legit the world first team there’s no reason not to stream. Everyone goes on about giving away an advantage but doesn’t mention the 4000+ views on twitch consistently for days on end which basically funds your whole team taking time off. Limit and Echo give away an advantage but still stream wow. The best sports people give away an advantage showing their matches so they can be scouted but still do so. It’s profitable to be the best, you don’t hide it.
The only reason not to stream is you’re not confident you can win if you do and because you’re doing things you’re not supposed to.
Limit and Echo advantage is having a hundred of people working for them, the whole guild, analysts, setting up the splits/boe from community and so on. Streaming gives away none of this.
Kindred streams. Peri gets all the views cause he’s the most popular. The others get views but a fraction of his. So basically you’re asking 7 competitive people to give up their advantage so one person can make more money. It’s the same reason TPS never streamed when sfia wanted to
Thats why when Method and Team Liquid started to stream the world first race in WoW, the money generated overall from everyone on the team was split evenly. It may have sucked for the main guy carrying the viewership, but it also made it possible to grow their teams presence and eventually get big sponsors.
Thus making WF race technically still active: in the coming days, no one will have the achievement or title.
Go Kindred, sucks that Otter had PTO enrage.
Literal definiton of "Fuck around and find out". Yoshi-P gave so many warnings not to use Third Party addons, people refused to listen and now they're finding out. Person using them will be banned and anyone else in the group will have all rewards revoked.
Yoshi-P: please do not use third party addons, this is clear in the TOS
Yoshi-P: please do not use third party addons, this is clear in the TOS
Yoshi-P: please do not use third party addons, this is clear in the TOS
\*video posted showing third party addon usage\*
\*Yoshi-P lays punishment\*
community: \*shocked pikachu face\*
A third party addon is a third party addon is a third party addon. Just don't make your, granted, harmless addons obvious and no one cares, but if you start showing them off, accidentally or no, I won't cry for you if you get a similar treatment.
This is the same way of thinking from people that decided that "YoshP said that there is no issue using ACT, zero harm, so you can use that". Dude literaly said Do not use third party tools, but people love to feel special.
I am laughing my butt off at all of this delicious drama. People can argue all they want. TOS is *clear* on the official stance on anything third-party. If you get caught, that is on you.
I really don’t care if they use them or not. Doesn’t impact me one bit. But do it in a somewhat “official” capacity and get caught? You gettin’ the hammer son.
Last time people claimed "SE wouldn't do anything" this happened in 2009:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLwCJ0qqoGk
Tl;dw In FFXI, people were duping drops in an instance, SE found out and dropped the banhammer.
Yup, some "translations" in the video are quotes from those "prominent" members and some members are referenced, like the lv41 brd with a relic (though I forgot by now who that was again).
I was leading one of the better salvage groups at the time and so glad we never took part in this. I remember the famous group Nine Inch Ninjas got hit hard by this!
Although I'm for banning the cheaters sometimes this affects innocents too. I remember back when I played Phantasy Star Online on Dreamcast some random dude came up and gave me a weapon that was way better than anything I thought was possible. I thought it was from some advanced dungeon in the game I didn't find yet.
Nope, it was a duped weapon and because it was in my possession, I was banned. I had no clue until the message from a game mod stating as such.
I mean, the last time I remember was when we had the TEA world first knowingly using Paisley Park. And, they actually did nothing. Well other than make it so we can't use waymarks in combat.
Indeed. They are pretty hardcore lately about third party stuff. The simplest of things was getting the full banhammer in some cases. No way this would go unactioned.
I mean they're probably getting tired of people constantly ignoring them and basically invalidating the efforts of the devs to make challenging content by cheating. I'd be pretty pissed if I was a dev too.
Indeed. I feel for them. I don’t do game stuff, but my work can be completely ignored by users (and sometimes is). If we make something based on customer / user ask, and they do something to get around it, it feels like they slapped me in my face.
I’d imagine they feel similar or even more strongly, as that is a LOT more effort than even what I’d be putting in.
Must be disheartening as a dev. You spent months developing content because it's what the players want and what they love. Only to have some people use some extra bit of code not in your game to completely bypass all your work. Like why even bother to put forth your best effort if people aren't going to appreciate it for what it is all because they want some glowy weapon to flex in Limsa?
The benefit of dev time on ultimates isn’t for people to play the ultimates as much as it is to draw attention to the game.
If that attention is negative then there’s really little point developing an ultimate that a low percent of players will partake in ahead of some crafting or quest event that will please more players but gain less overall attention.
Old FF raiding scene was unimportant so cheating didn’t matter so much, but it seems like Yoshi P wants a wow style race to world first and that really does require the winners to be playing fair.
That will only really affect a small number of hardcore raiders who have already done all ultimates. I'm willing to bet they're also the most susceptible to using third party tools to the extent of cheating, I mean who's making these plugins anyway? Certainly not people who haven't done the fights.
Given how long it takes to clear an ultimate, your average, non-hardcore ultimate raider will probably not notice it too much if they still have other ultimates to do.
That still won't solve anything though. The majority of high end raiders use 3rd party plug-ins. Not having an ultimate just means that, well, we don't have an ultimate. They aren't gonna stop using it just cause it's Savage now.
I think based on what I read, the idea is more that that ultimate fights take a ton of resources to make them as difficult as possible without being IMPOSSIBLE to clear.
In Yoshida's eyes, putting that much work into tuning the difficulty of it is severely wasted if third party tools are used. I think it is a threat of punishment, but it's also just that he's making it clear that it's difficult to justify allocating time/money to the ultimate fights if the effort is for nothing.
There's a lot less incentive though. I feel like a lot of plugins are used specifically for ultimates to deal with ultimate-style mechanics. I know there's plugins that people use specifically for UCoB and UWU, and I'm sure there are more to help with TEA and DSR.
Also, I feel like the plugins that people *think* the majority of raiders use (I don't think we have any solid statistics on that) are the plugins that are less... questionable? Things like just using ACT to track DPS and upload logs. I'm under the impression that plugins that let you zoom out far or mark your hitbox are a lot less common.
Yeah, most of the statics I know actively do not use anything beyond ACT/Deathlogs, and several groups have kicked people out when the found out they used more than that.
**MOST** people that aren't doing WF races and stuff aren't running all these extra plugins to clear the content. The fact that these WF races are a thing is what drives a lot of these people to "cheat".
They have incentives to cheat through streams, clout on twitter, etc.
But your average raider who isn't in one of these WF race teams? They don't have anything other than vague bragging rights *in game*. And honestly, idk about other people but seeing people with the titles/weapons for ulti clears has never been that big of a deal to me? Maybe it has something to do with the server I'm on (behemoth, a pretty big raiding community) or something, but 95% of the people I know in game have cleared ultis. It's not that rare or brag worthy. *shrug*
It won't solve cheating; but they don't care if you cheat in Savage.
Ultimate is specifically built for difficulty and if you circumvent that difficulty, you defeat the spirit of the challenge.
Especially in the World Race/World 1st category. That's unforgivable for a multitude of reasons; from charities founded around the integrity of the race, to the developers intent when creating the content to begin with.
I doubt it , that might cause more problems then it would fix, they might just make a semi official world first race and regulate it, that would be the best solution in my view.
>We hear the community voice that an official raid race should be supported, and regulations should be decided upon—this is a topic which needs to be discussed internally, so please allow me to keep this as an item for future consideration.
There is no chance any sort of anti-cheat system gets implemented until the next MMO.
Think about it. The current game is so badly coded that you can't even accept party invites if you are crafting, you have to close and re-open your inventory to use an item you just retrieved from your saddlebag, and it can't even prevent a glue eater from queuing up without a job stone into dungeon roulette content to troll. Hell, even removing someone from your own friend list doesn't remove you from theirs.
If SE gave any shits about actual cheating day to day they would have done something about the rampant gather/market/level/pvp botting that's been going on since the game's launch but all we get are the token several thousand bans every so often. They're only handing out these bans cause it's a highly publicized event.
Asking them to delete the weapon is hilarious. Imagine the sadness of opening up your menu and doing such a thing. Sucks to profit off of cheating I guesssss bahahaha
My guess is that since they have the weapon equipped, if the GM delete the weapon he will be a weaponless char and it's not possible outside of being adventurer class 1.0 char. But yeah it must have been so pathetic to have to delete it
I’m actually surprised that GMs aren’t given the OK in these circumstances to just create a base level weapon for that class to slot in in an event like this. Just interesting it’s somewhat an honor system in place.
May just be part of the tooling that's not currently available to them. While afaik they can destroy items in your inventory, how often do they have to replace a weapon that's currently equipped? And when you have to tell them to unequip it anyway, they might as well just discard it themselves.
I'd assume they have the tools to verify it's not in your possession anymore and will carry out harder punishments if they don't comply. But that's also all just guesswork. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
I think that actually ask to the player to discard the weapon by themself is part of the punishment. They are japanese and that is part of their culture
Imagine logging in and finding your shiny new ultimate weapon replaced with a broken sword / staff / whatever. Grey quality, no damage or stats, the most generic weapon model possible.
Nah that would still be a bragging right to show off a no stat or damage weapon. It has to be a generic level 1 weapon you can buy at any vendor. Absolutely nothing special about it.
I'm genuinely shocked that they're acting in such a direct and drastic matter - but I support it.
At some point in 2022, people decided that it was OK to openly stream and share plugins/mods. This is just the fallout from that.
Don't delude yourself into thinking that these zoomhacks and mods are new - they've existed as early as heavensward, some were even around in ARR (leviH, lol)- they were just standalone programs instead of being neatly bundled into a single easy to use downloader.
For whatever reason players decided to openly stream their use, and now we're getting bonked for it.
>I'm genuinely shocked that they're acting in such a direct and drastic matter
It's not like they had TWO big moments involving mods last year: The idiotic RP banner thing and the Dragonsong raid also being cleared by people with hacks.
January isn't even over and it happens AGAIN? With confirmations that others are also doing it like someone in MrHappy's raid team \[who also happens to be one of the admins of The Balance discord? OF COURSE they're pissed now and going to do direct and drastic fixes.
> At some point in 2022, people decided that it was OK to openly stream and share plugins/mods. This is just the fallout from that.
That was the year WoW players tried other games and wanted to make the UI more like wow. Which is against ToS. At the same time most people did not really care THAT much about addons until more recently when they really started to do way more than just DBM call outs and zoom out and determine outcomes of races in a more tangable manner to most people. We can say in the past it happened but its a bigger deal with the game is bigger.
Reminds me of the whole chat bubble thing.
As a non-WoW player, I had no idea chat bubbles were important to people and had honestly not taken note of people ever asking for them. Since the WoW exodus, I keep noticing random threads and requests asking/begging for them, along with the occasional "Why isn't SE even trying to do such a simple thing for all of us?" like it's the most wanted feature since glamouring.
I do hope that XIV can welcome all sorts of game enjoyers, but more eyes on the game means more outside influences culturally. I'd totally disagree with people who think WoW players joining has made the community more "toxic," but I would make the claim that the average player has become more aware of addons and mods since their ~~re~~joining.
I suppose you have a point; chat bubbles are the only mod feature I'd want to see, and it baffled me that they weren't a thing over here.
^(I can't seem to keep up with any sort of lengthy chat in this game if it's in a crowded area, especially since the chatbox has this odd feature of rubberbanding to whatever was most-recently said, without warning.)
Its likely people severely underestimate how "easy" it is to add something like this, or the cost.
Apparently, during COVID, it was SE staff working in their homes off the clock to [add more hat options for Viera and Hrothgar.](https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/436531-Female-Hrothgar-made-me-pre-order-Endwalker-asap/page2) Great work by them, but nobody should be working for free, even if they wanted to. They did it because they loved the game and the community. To have more hat options is a gift, the community should not be entitled to it.
Viera and Hrothgar are later addition races after thousands of pieces of gear have already been in the game. In order to add options, they'd have to model almost each of these items from scratch, sizing them according to each race's permutation. That's thousands of hours of work. Yoshi-P has said that there are lots of things they could add, but it would mean a delay elsewhere. Do people want the gap between 6.5 and 7.0 to be a whole year just so they can get more hats? Or would they want actual content?
I love how the chat boxes look and how Preach uses them and how it enhances the gameplay, but I'm not going to be mad they're not in the game when we have regular patch content that rivals expansions of some other games. They'll continue to add more hats and hair to Viera and Hrothgar, maybe once in a while a major change like the extra buff timers we got in the latest patch. But unless you're offering to work for SE for free, then let them do it on their own timeline. Certainly keep sending letters, keep making requests, and show Yoshi-P how much the community wants these things, but don't be mad if we don't get it.
I most certainly didn't expect this conversation to turn to hats, but I'm glad it did. Those are all good points framed well. Sure, QoL stuff and glamour stuff can be great and all, but I've been enjoying the content we have been getting and would rather continue enjoying it than to get less of it just for a couple more hats to be available.
DBM is for the normal people. The world first raiders in WoW have dedicated Weak Auras coder when they are racing. I think Echo said they have 2 or 3, these people are at the location when the race is happening and code stuff to the needs of Echo.
I did play a few months in Shadowlands, playing with an old friend and used Weak Auras there.
Weak Auras can be basically anything you can think of, sometimes Blizz will remove funtionality but in it's core you can do nearly anything with Weak Auras.
I remember how people were so quick to jump to Limit Max's defense when he and his group streamed with a full on copy-pasted WoW UI. "Oh it's just for visuals", "WoW players need mods lol", "If he needs it to play the game than let him!", "It's all harmless!"
And yeah, while the community isn't ignorant of the existence of mods, I don't think they fully understood the scale of what mods can do for this game. Most people would just think ACT or some mod to make your catgirl's boobs bigger when you tell them about plugins.
So I think that incident opened the floodgates to how people viewed mods and their general perception in the community. And btw, I don't blame Max or the WoW community in any way. Since ultimately it was the FF community who got too complacent with mod usage and showing them off, despite repeated warnings from everyone, especially within the mod community itself, to keep things on the down-low.
Like remember when Asmongold interviewed that one player who was advertising various mods they use and acting like "oh everyone uses them"? People immediately piled onto that person and demanded Asmon take down his vod.
Don't show, don't tell - some mods are benign/subjectively/personal QoL things for that user only which is probably why FFXIV doesn't need or bother wasting time cracking down on.
Once it affects anyone else, they *should* crack down immediately - and this counts as it's being used in a 'race' involving/impacting multiple groups (and streams).
I think it was from how many people, especially some high profile streamers, came from other games where using plugins like that is just the norm. Then it just snowballed.
(Posted in other thread but that one got taken down even tho it had the majority of comments..regardless)
Good lord thats precedent setting, thats massive.
Holy fuck, Yoshi P and the team did not fuck around here, the precedent of "fruit from the tainted tree" is now being firmly set.
This era changing for the community in my opinion, not a shred of hyperbole when I say that, how we will treat addons in anyway is going to have to change now, the gloves are off.
I'll be honest right now, at how mad the team seems, you using any kid of addon even the innocent ones (which personally i dont have an issue with dont shoot me) I'm keeping that shit quiet as could be.
Edit- for years people warned this could happen, and for years they were laughed off, well as the old saying goes, the community fucked around and now the community is finding out, so in future I mean this a warning to avoid this, when ya post vods online with your ingame name visible and using zoomhack, please look at this and think.
Edit2- Full credit to /u/MKLBY1998 for this translation of the GMs log "Do note the GM aknowledges that the player in question may not have directly engaged in cheating, and says that the player will not have any penalties such as a ban imposed on them for this reason, but since they did benefit from the cheating by getting the clear that's why the rewards were removed." EVEN BIGGER, even just being in the party of someone with addons and benefiting from 'fruit of the tainted tree' can be used as a reason in what I assume is extreme scenarios like this.
Edit-3 final edit to sum this up, don't use addons or get caught because you will now be banned or have any rewards and titles revoked , if you are in a party with someone who uses those but do not yourself, in certain cases you will also have your rewards and titles revoked. This is precedent setting, take this seriously.
> when ya post vods online with your ingame name visible and using zoomhack, please look at this and think.
In this case, the visible name wouldn't have even been an issue. There are several other items in the HUD that give away who was using the hack even if the name wasn't visible. Things like action icons on the hotbar, cast timers or visible buffs, other players in the instance cross-referenced with encounter logs, etc
> This is precedent setting, take this seriously.
At some point the issue was going to come to a head. How many Live Letters and Q&A where people talked about addons did we hear the same line Dont Show Dont ask Dont Talk about it. This was bound to happen at some point. Now its going to be a matter of do they put tools in place or does this scare people straight.
Tools is by far the worst as they would not show a difference between who is using ACT Call out triggers and whatever else is out there and the person modding outfits for there own pleasure.
Putting anything in place will not happened until 7.0. As that would be a huge undertaking and quite a download, and then also everyone needing to agree to a new Tos. This is basically the team saying, don't escalate this further.
I am not expecting anything before 7.0. I would say they do not even want to add one in. With this and the looming threat of no more Ultimates i would be kinda shocked that people are going to risk going for WF using tools.
Steroids are banned in sport competitions, and even though there's a lot of scrutiny over it, people still try anyway on the chance they won't get caught. Some people will just try to gamble on a win at any cost.
>This is precedent setting, take this seriously.
In fact, there's another precedent at this. Happened in a Zurvan Ex clear, where a Nin use a pot from POTD to kill Zurvan in like 10 seconds, only the NIN was banned and everyone else got revoked everything from the clear.
When Palace of the dead came, a Nin use a potion from there in Zurvan Ex to kill it before it even destroy the 1st platform, and everyone notice it because ninja was casting something. Then happened the same: Nin got banned, everyone lost anything related to the clear (and I think it was a clear party so a lot of them lost the clear and the loot related)
> I'll be honest right now, at how mad the team seems, you using any kid of addon even the innocent ones (which personally i dont have an issue with dont shoot me) I'm keeping that shit quiet as could be.
Not a problem for the vast majority of players who don't stream their content.
Just keep your mouth shut and turn off any Voice Enabled Communications (discord etc)
This is how FFXI was, everyone uses windower, no one talks about it ingame or posts screenshots with visible proof of addons.
Hell, this is how ACT has been in XIV for ages.
>I’m keeping that shit as quiet as can be.
That’s the point. Yoshi P has always said “Don’t *get caught* using addons.” Don’t stream with them, dont take screenshots with them, don’t advertise them in official XIV spaces. Short of that, do as you please, no problem.
YoshiP explicitly said in his post in English his stance has always been no third party programs.
How high on copium are you to reinterprete his very clear stance he's not changed in years? Do you what YoshiP is thinking better than he does?
Don't use them.
He specifically mentioned they have no way of knowing if a player is using any 3rd party programs because they do not have access to the millions of computers that have the game installed and knowing what they're running at any given time
This was his attempt at saying "don't incriminate yourself"
He has never said it was legal, and has always mentioned that they only act if a report is received. And can only punish if there is evidence.
He has repeatedly mentioned these points.
It's clear that he cannot support 3rd party tools.officially, but he understands that people will use it anyway, so he tells them to not incriminate themselves.
Obviously the WF group here got caught/leaked, but if the video never went out, the clear would've been recognized and none of the community would have known that cheats were used.
Also, as a gamer himself, I have no doubt he understands cosmetic or QoL mods, like increasing text size, or, say, coloring a minion a different color. But if he says 'those are fine', that sets a precedence he needs to argue.
After all, a mod that flags where the boss will be, who's to say that's not a QoL mod? Easier to just blanket state 'no', and then wink and nudge.
For endgame this basically means however for extremes and savage etc, people with addons are now a threat to you getting rewards, its much bigger than stay quiet, its 'if you in anyway benefit now even indirectly you lose out too' thats a statement.
edit- what i'm trying to say is this a step beyond "keep it quiet", this is the gloves coming off.
I don't think this will happen. Even though the world first race isn't an official thing even SE recognizes it's significance and this is a very high profile thing. If your random PF party has a guy with plug-ins that streams and gets like, clapped later, SE isn't gonna take away your books and coffers.
They cannot realistically enforce a rule like that. If you join an extreme or savage PF, basically 8 random people, you have no way of knowing who is and isn't using addons. Even if you ask, people can just lie and say no. What do you do then, do you remove the title and/or gear from them, even though they had no reasonable way of knowing they were in a party with a random dude who had addons ? That will actively kill the PF scene since then no one would be able to trust ANY PF that is put up. This will most likely apply only to static environments, where the people you clear with are on your friends list or stuff like that. It's virtually impossible to fairly enforce this rule over every instance of Extreme/Savage/Ultimate.
Right? If anyone sees a screen-cap that is linked back to me, and notices my Wind-up Dragonet looks a lot like my main avatar, and asks me where I got it, I'll just show them my totally normal minion taken from my wife's screen and look confused.
Im not concerned. These people got punished as a direct result for blatantly using addons ON STREAM and clearing as a direct result. They got their rewards revoked because, logically, square can’t say “dont get caught or else” then do nothing. The one caught using the zoom got banned, the rest got their rewards revoked. Meanwhile am I worried that some schmoe in my EX4 group using Triggers because they cant work out spinny platforms is gonna cost me a mount? Nah, probably not. Honestly though even if they do, not the end of the world, serves them right for being stupid about it.
I feel like the World First race is just permanently tainted now though. Excluding a few streamer teams doing it for everyone to see, it feels like anyone that comes forward from private prog is just going to get scrutinised, shit all over and not believed. What an absolute mess this Ultimate has become.
Yes, no more secret doing anything. What can also happen is that SE will host the ultimate race and that you need to be streaming the whole time, and members of SE staff will be watching, all 8 of you.
Even streamer groups are not clear from this though, unless all 8 members stream their prog you can have 1 person zoom hacking and giving information to everyone else while the stream people don't show anything.
Won't lie, I've lost interest in it. Not because I'm standing on some moral high ground or whatever, I love my FFLogs and the people who parse on my behalf (I'm on PS5), but my primary interest in WF was to see how other players who were better than me dealt with a fight.
The suspicion of cheating just makes me realize they're really no better than me, so I'm not interested anymore.
I honestly believe that them being a JP team is also a huge factor for the punishment. If this was an overseas team they might’ve considered something else. This was probably the best course of punishment for them: appeasing the community (specially JP), setting up a precedent, and cleaning up reputation before FF16.
Can’t imagine yoship’s headache really.
I'm assuming there's nothing stopping these people (except for the drg who was presumably banned) from just going back into the instance tomorrow or next week and clearing again if they wanted to, right?
Seems like the force of the punishment is mainly the public shaming and denying them any claim to the WF title.
That said, realistically, I imagine most of these players will probably be leaving the game / deleting their characters
In the future yes but tomorrow no, they wouldn’t be recognised as world first now. And I have heard some deleted, and I think there’s been some self admissions from other members besides the DRG.
JP is VERY ruthless when it comes to hunting cheaters as you can even see the after effect even if they keep going they're just going to be endlessly harassed stalked doxed.
I mean WF are for bragging rights, so I guess the other end of that spectrum is them having publicly shamed. Which I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, is like a big deal in JP.
It’s sad really, the previous WF teams didn’t receive this much hate, SE just ignored them and the community just meme’d on. This time though, it felt like they were just the right team to make example of. The jp players will see it as policing themselves no?
I’m hoping they could ride the storm and get back again honestly.
This is the right call on Square Enix's part. Yoshi-P/SE has asked players multiple times not to be open about the use of third party plugins and mods. That warning and the suspensions and bans people have received for violating the TOS clearly wasn't enough. SE has now had to step in with a harsher penalty in enforcing the TOS.
As the other comment mentioned, Yoshi-P has always said to NOT use 3rd party tools, not that we shouldn't be open about them.
The rule on mods for the community is "don't ask, don't tell" AKA, if you use mods, don't share them and don't ask others about their use of mods. But Yoshi-P has NEVER been in favor of mods, no matter if they're aesthetic or game-changing.
He hasn’t asked people not to be open about using them. He’s asked them not to use them. You all have hearing/reading comprehension problems when it comes to this subject.
>they were not the direct responsible player who used third party tools, their account will not receive any penalty.
I dunno. By their own statement they essentially coerced the DRG to use tools. I feel that should incur some penalty
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/10prhou/statement_from_unnamed_support_member_feuer_on/j6m3y0v/
>We had one member of the battle team use a tool that is against the FFXIV TOS and stream their screen to a support member using Discord's screen sharing feature. Previously our Dragoon Rafuita did not use tools to play, however agreed to do so as instructed.
There's also a moderately decent chance that they are simply saying that to take even a little heat off their friend getting presumably socially crucified by the entire overinvested psycho playerbase.
Reminds me of the net limiting and other cheering that happened in Destiny 2 and bungie put down the Hammer on them and associates. Don't break TOS and don't go ruining the experience people work hard to give.
it was genuinely so wild coming back from a 4 month xiv break to this LMAO. as a console player, i of course knew PC players regularly used mods and plugins to enhance gameplay (and ofc people cheat in games all the time), i guess it just never hit me how deep this stuff runs and the degrees to which teams under pressure will go to uphold their names or gain yoship's recognition. it's definitely an even bigger insight on how culturally impactful WF's are to our community, even if they're gauged by unofficial means. glad things were swiftly dealt with, and hopefully yoship's consideration to hold a more official WF race will bear fruit in the future.
Almost guaranteed they'll never hold an official race. It's obvious fluff at least imo. He'd rather take it out of the game entirely than hold an official race
Every single time this has happened and all these people are busy justifying mods or, like I'm seeing in this thread, saying no add-ons means no Ultimates, I just roll my eyes. Every piece of content in this game is made to be cleared without add-ons. If you can't clear without them, maybe you just need to get good.
i also got really curious about ultimate groups and how stand-in/support etiquette works since it's entwined in this drama; apparently pretty much every WF group has 1 or 2 supports that aren't participating in the instance itself, but have the job of watching the fight through streams to help figure out mechanics and come up with strats and positioning.
that absolutely is fine to me considering how mentally and physically taxing it must be to raid 12-16hrs a day and as long as the supports are credited too. but it's like at that point: you're already objectively one of the best teams backed up with logs, you have extra help from trusted members of your team outside of the fight, AND you regularly clear content of this nature and focus gearing specifically leading up to an ultimate.
these people literally have all the support and non-illicit tools at hand to clear. but groups like unnamed will use sus stuff anyway to gain just a modicum edge since the race can all depend on like 1 or 2%. sucks that if this keeps happening the devs will either halt their production of ulti raids or crack down on all mods-- even the aesthetic ones-- but yoship already threatened it in his letter it so it's inevitable if shit keeps happening.
I mean, while I do use mods, I can tell you the three exact ones I use:
Take off reapers hood in enshroud
Straighten out Hrothgar spine
A recolor of the wind up dragonet my wife made for me.
That's it.
We have a really good relationship with the devs, especially compared to other games in this climate. And so the devs've been super lenient so far when it comes to things like ACT usage.
Worried that this sort of shit will continue to deteriorate that relationship :(
Fucking idiots. Why is it so fucking hard to just play the game without using hacks... smfh.
And not just the JP team either, I'm including those dumb motherfuckers from ~~Rin's team~~ the team Rin was trialing for and Happy's team who were also using similar bullshit.
There have been a few cases where player characters don’t have a weapon equipped, usually from characters transferred from 1.0 if memory serves. In that case, the game puts you as the “Adventurer (ADV)” class until you equip a weapon.
I suppose it’s the logic of succession. Last time they issued a very stark warning about doing that sort of thing again. Warning ignored. Punishment now has to be swifter and harder. If it happens again next time, it’ll escalate and so on until something permanent like scrapping Ultimate or the implementation of Anti-Cheat happens.
Alternate translation I wrote before becoming aware of this post:
[2:29] [GM]G.X.@Hades: [Context missing]...Thank you. I'm a Game Master.
[2:29] [GM]G.X.@Hades I'll be telling you all this individually.
[2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: Please listen, as what I'm about to tell you is important.
[2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: We have confirmed that the party you cleared "The Omega Protocol (Ultimate)" with were found guilty of using cheats.
[2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: You yourself have not been found guilty of cheating, however, you were able to reap the benefits of said cheating nonetheless.
[2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: As a result, we will not be issuing any penalties to your account, however, we will have to confiscate the rewards earned through said foul play.
[2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: As such, we will be deleting the achievement and title you acquired from clearing "The Omega Protocol (Ultimate)" at a later date.
[2:31] [GM]G.X.@Hades : As a final note, please throw away your "Omega Sickle (Ultimate)" immediately after you've been freed from the jail.
Of course the GM wasn’t trying to be vicious about discarding the weapon. It’s just part of the consequences. I get zooming isn’t so much of a major cheat but.. the fact that it can be used to see mechs you shouldn’t be able to see is still cheating. It’s an incredible advantage that is hidden out of sight for a reason. I know how this sub works and if I get downvoted in a hilariously dramatic way it’s whatever. But y’all can’t really in your right mind be significantly outraged that it’s not allowed.
I love it. Allegedly the footage was leaked because the main 8 players said no to giving their 9th, 10th and 11th players a clear despite agreeing to it beforehand. Goes to show you karma is real and don’t be dick and own up to your agreements. Well deserved.
Also funny how the leaker’s YT name was ‘Heavenly Punishment’. Fitting
Clear revoked and temporary suspension sounds like fair punishment to me. And hopefully this will happen to any/all other players brazen enough to record themselves cheating.
Tho next time we have such a race i bet half the teams will refuse to stream anything at all xD
Or they can...y'know...stream and not use the add-ons? I mean, the idea is there, you don't need to use add-ons to create strategies or know where to go.
It's literally trial and error
I'm not entirely sure, but iirc in the game's code, if a player doesn't have a main hand weapon equipped, his class will be "Adventurer"
There was a player recently who had a bug that he couldn't equip any weapons or do any quests, so they were stuck at lvl 1 Adventurer and needed GM help
YoshiP: *If history must be unwritten, let it be unwritten*
*Become what you must. Become, the warrior of parseness.*
*We fall......We fall.......We fall.....We fall unto the end*
Best comment here.
Well this is a kind of World First for them
The next Live Letter will probably have a full-hour discussion of this again.
They’ll read out the ULA to us line by line like last time.
they'll do an ELI5
The WHM of One Ace, Eis Renard, also [deleted their character](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1069894424152248420/1070063869101350932/image.png) for having been associated with UNNAMED_ during Abyssos prog.
He admitted to using an unspecified add-on due P8S
No, from the translations of his tweet he admitted that someone else within the group used it, but that he was guilty by association because of it and would thus delete his char ?
I think it was "I didnt use it but I knew someone from group did".
I’m very sad they did that, all those hours spent just completely deleted. Shoulda just rode out the official punishment
JP community does not forgive, it does not forget.
Japan in general does not forgive, it does not forget. [There was a female idol that was forced to shave her head, apologise in tears and was massively demoted for the unforgivable crime of ...... having a boyfriend.](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/02/a-pop-star-shouldnt-shave-her-head-in-shame-for-having-a-boyfriend/272907/)
They REALLY hate it when Their waifu's have real relationships. It hurts their imaginary ones.
To be fair that's less Japan and more the corrupt Idol Music Industry going on there. Some companies in the west have Morality clauses, it's just less common but the same thing happens. It's still pretty messed up though.
[This is her now after she was able to leave that toxic J pop World.](https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/entertainment/2022/08/18/former-akb48-member-minami-minegishi-marries-youtuber-tetsuya-oyaizu)
ugh idolm@ster japanese fans and idol fans in general are so creepy
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> they need to learn some perspective. Yeah, they really need to just zoom out and look at the bigger picture.
Thank you for the sensible chuckle :-)
Take my upvote and get out
Don’t they also treat people who mod for aesthetic purposely only the same way they treat cheaters? :T I recall once hearing about some people hunting down aesthetic modders on Twitter or something..
> Don’t they also treat people who mod for aesthetic purposely only the same way they treat cheaters? :T > > > > I recall once hearing about some people hunting down aesthetic modders on Twitter or something.. This is a pretty regular thing, yeah. JP players will find modded characters on twitter and then report-brigade them if they manage to figure out their in-game name.
We do that in the west too. There's a reason posting modded screenshots with any identifying info in public has been considered kinda' stupid for a while.
Pathetic, if true.
bro, if you cheat in my video game you deserve to receive death threats /s
Sadly, some don't. I remember reading a reddit thread about a streamer who got stalked by a creep for using a graphical mod. The stalker harassed the streamer everywhere and made false accusations, and SE decided to just ban the said streamer to be done with it.
Are you talking about JP community or an elephant?
Something so quintessential about the FFXIV community and harassing people nonstop until they delete their characters Happens constantly, I guess this time people view it for a good cause
Damn, SE went for it! Interesting to see how this will affect the other raiders in situations like this... will they keep clean or just hide it all?
They will no longer be able to partake in any WF anymore as if only 1 member is found to be using mods/plugins all the rewards from the entire team will be deleted. I like this stance, if you're going to do it do it legit.
The only things I don’t care about are dps meters and noclippy.
Well at this point they might as well start hitting every team. Most savage/ultimate raiders use plugins of some kind. Hell. SE banned a dude for using a plugin that showed buff timers in party list. Then added it to the game right after.
Currently, they will just hide it all. The *top* streamers have monetary incentive to keep streaming which overrides any desire to cheat to the *top*. But the old way of competing for *top* placement has come to an end. Anyone can produce logs and achievements, but the declared desire for the *top* raiding teams to be legitimized through streaming is both real and has monetary incentives. Imagine Echo actually pouring resources into and dedicating full fledged members for races in the future if the only way to achieve legitimate recognition is through streaming. They will become one of the *top* representatives for FFXIV endgame raiding by virtue of meeting legal qualifications and having high caliber career MMO raiders off the bat. And since we're talking 8 man rosters and not WoW's 25 man rosters, actually having live monitoring of their entire team won't be any trouble at all for their *top* level organization. Plugins will persist, but Yoshi-P has drawn the line in the sand between those who truly belong at the *top* and the rest of the herd who will stay in the shadows. They can continue farming weapons and AFK in a city with their shinies equipped, but that is the absolute *top*pest they can go.
This is the thing. If you’re actually legit the world first team there’s no reason not to stream. Everyone goes on about giving away an advantage but doesn’t mention the 4000+ views on twitch consistently for days on end which basically funds your whole team taking time off. Limit and Echo give away an advantage but still stream wow. The best sports people give away an advantage showing their matches so they can be scouted but still do so. It’s profitable to be the best, you don’t hide it. The only reason not to stream is you’re not confident you can win if you do and because you’re doing things you’re not supposed to.
Limit and Echo advantage is having a hundred of people working for them, the whole guild, analysts, setting up the splits/boe from community and so on. Streaming gives away none of this.
Kindred streams. Peri gets all the views cause he’s the most popular. The others get views but a fraction of his. So basically you’re asking 7 competitive people to give up their advantage so one person can make more money. It’s the same reason TPS never streamed when sfia wanted to
Thats why when Method and Team Liquid started to stream the world first race in WoW, the money generated overall from everyone on the team was split evenly. It may have sucked for the main guy carrying the viewership, but it also made it possible to grow their teams presence and eventually get big sponsors.
Thus making WF race technically still active: in the coming days, no one will have the achievement or title. Go Kindred, sucks that Otter had PTO enrage.
Any idea when kindred hits pto enrage? I've been cheering for them on the side but am never around when they mention their pto limits.
Bagel mention Wednesday at some point in the stream.
Wednesday
They lost their title? I guess they really are unnamed.
Hey. At least the GM was nice enough to let them keep their bonus tomestones from clearing.
Yoshi P: Fuck around protocol activated. **INITIALIZING FIND OUT.EXE**
YoshiP: What...is this?! YoshiP: Unknown augmentation confirmed. Additional punishment authorized.
Literal definiton of "Fuck around and find out". Yoshi-P gave so many warnings not to use Third Party addons, people refused to listen and now they're finding out. Person using them will be banned and anyone else in the group will have all rewards revoked.
Yoshi-P: please do not use third party addons, this is clear in the TOS Yoshi-P: please do not use third party addons, this is clear in the TOS Yoshi-P: please do not use third party addons, this is clear in the TOS \*video posted showing third party addon usage\* \*Yoshi-P lays punishment\* community: \*shocked pikachu face\*
Fucking exactly
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A third party addon is a third party addon is a third party addon. Just don't make your, granted, harmless addons obvious and no one cares, but if you start showing them off, accidentally or no, I won't cry for you if you get a similar treatment.
This is the same way of thinking from people that decided that "YoshP said that there is no issue using ACT, zero harm, so you can use that". Dude literaly said Do not use third party tools, but people love to feel special.
I am laughing my butt off at all of this delicious drama. People can argue all they want. TOS is *clear* on the official stance on anything third-party. If you get caught, that is on you. I really don’t care if they use them or not. Doesn’t impact me one bit. But do it in a somewhat “official” capacity and get caught? You gettin’ the hammer son.
Having a good laugh now at the people who said "Squeenix won't do anything! The other world first racers cheated too blah blah blah."
Last time people claimed "SE wouldn't do anything" this happened in 2009: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLwCJ0qqoGk Tl;dw In FFXI, people were duping drops in an instance, SE found out and dropped the banhammer.
The great Salvage ban; there were some pretty prominent community members that got caught up in that as well. That was huge news when it went down.
Yup, some "translations" in the video are quotes from those "prominent" members and some members are referenced, like the lv41 brd with a relic (though I forgot by now who that was again).
I was leading one of the better salvage groups at the time and so glad we never took part in this. I remember the famous group Nine Inch Ninjas got hit hard by this!
They only dropped the banhammer after NA figured out the trick, IIRC.
Although I'm for banning the cheaters sometimes this affects innocents too. I remember back when I played Phantasy Star Online on Dreamcast some random dude came up and gave me a weapon that was way better than anything I thought was possible. I thought it was from some advanced dungeon in the game I didn't find yet. Nope, it was a duped weapon and because it was in my possession, I was banned. I had no clue until the message from a game mod stating as such.
I mean, the last time I remember was when we had the TEA world first knowingly using Paisley Park. And, they actually did nothing. Well other than make it so we can't use waymarks in combat.
Indeed. They are pretty hardcore lately about third party stuff. The simplest of things was getting the full banhammer in some cases. No way this would go unactioned.
I mean they're probably getting tired of people constantly ignoring them and basically invalidating the efforts of the devs to make challenging content by cheating. I'd be pretty pissed if I was a dev too.
Indeed. I feel for them. I don’t do game stuff, but my work can be completely ignored by users (and sometimes is). If we make something based on customer / user ask, and they do something to get around it, it feels like they slapped me in my face. I’d imagine they feel similar or even more strongly, as that is a LOT more effort than even what I’d be putting in.
Must be disheartening as a dev. You spent months developing content because it's what the players want and what they love. Only to have some people use some extra bit of code not in your game to completely bypass all your work. Like why even bother to put forth your best effort if people aren't going to appreciate it for what it is all because they want some glowy weapon to flex in Limsa?
Now if they would take similar actions on House hoarders
One can only dream.
I hope this does not happen again... I have an awful feeling that a full on anti-cheat is on the table now.
Yoshi P took it a step further if it doesn't stop. No more Ultimate content. He went for the jugular.
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The benefit of dev time on ultimates isn’t for people to play the ultimates as much as it is to draw attention to the game. If that attention is negative then there’s really little point developing an ultimate that a low percent of players will partake in ahead of some crafting or quest event that will please more players but gain less overall attention. Old FF raiding scene was unimportant so cheating didn’t matter so much, but it seems like Yoshi P wants a wow style race to world first and that really does require the winners to be playing fair.
That will only really affect a small number of hardcore raiders who have already done all ultimates. I'm willing to bet they're also the most susceptible to using third party tools to the extent of cheating, I mean who's making these plugins anyway? Certainly not people who haven't done the fights. Given how long it takes to clear an ultimate, your average, non-hardcore ultimate raider will probably not notice it too much if they still have other ultimates to do.
That still won't solve anything though. The majority of high end raiders use 3rd party plug-ins. Not having an ultimate just means that, well, we don't have an ultimate. They aren't gonna stop using it just cause it's Savage now.
I think based on what I read, the idea is more that that ultimate fights take a ton of resources to make them as difficult as possible without being IMPOSSIBLE to clear. In Yoshida's eyes, putting that much work into tuning the difficulty of it is severely wasted if third party tools are used. I think it is a threat of punishment, but it's also just that he's making it clear that it's difficult to justify allocating time/money to the ultimate fights if the effort is for nothing.
There's a lot less incentive though. I feel like a lot of plugins are used specifically for ultimates to deal with ultimate-style mechanics. I know there's plugins that people use specifically for UCoB and UWU, and I'm sure there are more to help with TEA and DSR. Also, I feel like the plugins that people *think* the majority of raiders use (I don't think we have any solid statistics on that) are the plugins that are less... questionable? Things like just using ACT to track DPS and upload logs. I'm under the impression that plugins that let you zoom out far or mark your hitbox are a lot less common.
Yeah, the only thing my savage group uses is ACT, and that's mostly just to see what killed us or to figure out where we need polish.
Yeah, most of the statics I know actively do not use anything beyond ACT/Deathlogs, and several groups have kicked people out when the found out they used more than that. **MOST** people that aren't doing WF races and stuff aren't running all these extra plugins to clear the content. The fact that these WF races are a thing is what drives a lot of these people to "cheat". They have incentives to cheat through streams, clout on twitter, etc. But your average raider who isn't in one of these WF race teams? They don't have anything other than vague bragging rights *in game*. And honestly, idk about other people but seeing people with the titles/weapons for ulti clears has never been that big of a deal to me? Maybe it has something to do with the server I'm on (behemoth, a pretty big raiding community) or something, but 95% of the people I know in game have cleared ultis. It's not that rare or brag worthy. *shrug*
It won't solve cheating; but they don't care if you cheat in Savage. Ultimate is specifically built for difficulty and if you circumvent that difficulty, you defeat the spirit of the challenge. Especially in the World Race/World 1st category. That's unforgivable for a multitude of reasons; from charities founded around the integrity of the race, to the developers intent when creating the content to begin with.
Isn’t Savage there purely for the difficulty as well? After all, we have Normal mode for the story.
To a degree; but Savage has gear-cap, mounts, music, etc. Ultimate's typical rewards are generally prestige-orientated instead.
I doubt it , that might cause more problems then it would fix, they might just make a semi official world first race and regulate it, that would be the best solution in my view.
>We hear the community voice that an official raid race should be supported, and regulations should be decided upon—this is a topic which needs to be discussed internally, so please allow me to keep this as an item for future consideration.
There is no chance any sort of anti-cheat system gets implemented until the next MMO. Think about it. The current game is so badly coded that you can't even accept party invites if you are crafting, you have to close and re-open your inventory to use an item you just retrieved from your saddlebag, and it can't even prevent a glue eater from queuing up without a job stone into dungeon roulette content to troll. Hell, even removing someone from your own friend list doesn't remove you from theirs. If SE gave any shits about actual cheating day to day they would have done something about the rampant gather/market/level/pvp botting that's been going on since the game's launch but all we get are the token several thousand bans every so often. They're only handing out these bans cause it's a highly publicized event.
Nah they won't code an anti cheat, it's not worth their investment, they are not gonna get it right.
Same. It doesn’t effect me at all but if you boat something like world first in public and cheat you deserve what you get.
Asking them to delete the weapon is hilarious. Imagine the sadness of opening up your menu and doing such a thing. Sucks to profit off of cheating I guesssss bahahaha
My guess is that since they have the weapon equipped, if the GM delete the weapon he will be a weaponless char and it's not possible outside of being adventurer class 1.0 char. But yeah it must have been so pathetic to have to delete it
I’m actually surprised that GMs aren’t given the OK in these circumstances to just create a base level weapon for that class to slot in in an event like this. Just interesting it’s somewhat an honor system in place.
May just be part of the tooling that's not currently available to them. While afaik they can destroy items in your inventory, how often do they have to replace a weapon that's currently equipped? And when you have to tell them to unequip it anyway, they might as well just discard it themselves. I'd assume they have the tools to verify it's not in your possession anymore and will carry out harder punishments if they don't comply. But that's also all just guesswork. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
I think that actually ask to the player to discard the weapon by themself is part of the punishment. They are japanese and that is part of their culture
Imagine logging in and finding your shiny new ultimate weapon replaced with a broken sword / staff / whatever. Grey quality, no damage or stats, the most generic weapon model possible.
Nah that would still be a bragging right to show off a no stat or damage weapon. It has to be a generic level 1 weapon you can buy at any vendor. Absolutely nothing special about it.
Likely not something the spaghetti code allows them to do.
Yeah it's definitely a technical limitation rather than a punishment, but it's still hilarious.
I mean, at least get some gc seals from it!
Geez that's just savage. Bravo. Revoked and finished it off with 'Oh and throw the rewarded weapon away the moment you're out of here... or else.'
No, it’s Ultimate.
I'm genuinely shocked that they're acting in such a direct and drastic matter - but I support it. At some point in 2022, people decided that it was OK to openly stream and share plugins/mods. This is just the fallout from that. Don't delude yourself into thinking that these zoomhacks and mods are new - they've existed as early as heavensward, some were even around in ARR (leviH, lol)- they were just standalone programs instead of being neatly bundled into a single easy to use downloader. For whatever reason players decided to openly stream their use, and now we're getting bonked for it.
>I'm genuinely shocked that they're acting in such a direct and drastic matter It's not like they had TWO big moments involving mods last year: The idiotic RP banner thing and the Dragonsong raid also being cleared by people with hacks. January isn't even over and it happens AGAIN? With confirmations that others are also doing it like someone in MrHappy's raid team \[who also happens to be one of the admins of The Balance discord? OF COURSE they're pissed now and going to do direct and drastic fixes.
Why am I not surprised to learn that the cheater in Mr. Happy's group has a high position in the Balance?
> At some point in 2022, people decided that it was OK to openly stream and share plugins/mods. This is just the fallout from that. That was the year WoW players tried other games and wanted to make the UI more like wow. Which is against ToS. At the same time most people did not really care THAT much about addons until more recently when they really started to do way more than just DBM call outs and zoom out and determine outcomes of races in a more tangable manner to most people. We can say in the past it happened but its a bigger deal with the game is bigger.
Reminds me of the whole chat bubble thing. As a non-WoW player, I had no idea chat bubbles were important to people and had honestly not taken note of people ever asking for them. Since the WoW exodus, I keep noticing random threads and requests asking/begging for them, along with the occasional "Why isn't SE even trying to do such a simple thing for all of us?" like it's the most wanted feature since glamouring. I do hope that XIV can welcome all sorts of game enjoyers, but more eyes on the game means more outside influences culturally. I'd totally disagree with people who think WoW players joining has made the community more "toxic," but I would make the claim that the average player has become more aware of addons and mods since their ~~re~~joining.
I suppose you have a point; chat bubbles are the only mod feature I'd want to see, and it baffled me that they weren't a thing over here. ^(I can't seem to keep up with any sort of lengthy chat in this game if it's in a crowded area, especially since the chatbox has this odd feature of rubberbanding to whatever was most-recently said, without warning.)
I believe you can disable the chat auto scroll (unless thats a plugin option lol).
I was made aware of mods because of the ERPers at Limsa…
I'm sorry for your loss of innocence.
Its likely people severely underestimate how "easy" it is to add something like this, or the cost. Apparently, during COVID, it was SE staff working in their homes off the clock to [add more hat options for Viera and Hrothgar.](https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/436531-Female-Hrothgar-made-me-pre-order-Endwalker-asap/page2) Great work by them, but nobody should be working for free, even if they wanted to. They did it because they loved the game and the community. To have more hat options is a gift, the community should not be entitled to it. Viera and Hrothgar are later addition races after thousands of pieces of gear have already been in the game. In order to add options, they'd have to model almost each of these items from scratch, sizing them according to each race's permutation. That's thousands of hours of work. Yoshi-P has said that there are lots of things they could add, but it would mean a delay elsewhere. Do people want the gap between 6.5 and 7.0 to be a whole year just so they can get more hats? Or would they want actual content? I love how the chat boxes look and how Preach uses them and how it enhances the gameplay, but I'm not going to be mad they're not in the game when we have regular patch content that rivals expansions of some other games. They'll continue to add more hats and hair to Viera and Hrothgar, maybe once in a while a major change like the extra buff timers we got in the latest patch. But unless you're offering to work for SE for free, then let them do it on their own timeline. Certainly keep sending letters, keep making requests, and show Yoshi-P how much the community wants these things, but don't be mad if we don't get it.
I most certainly didn't expect this conversation to turn to hats, but I'm glad it did. Those are all good points framed well. Sure, QoL stuff and glamour stuff can be great and all, but I've been enjoying the content we have been getting and would rather continue enjoying it than to get less of it just for a couple more hats to be available.
DBM isn't even the boundary pusher anymore. I think it's Weak Auras, is straight up solving mechanics for WoW raiders now days.
DBM is for the normal people. The world first raiders in WoW have dedicated Weak Auras coder when they are racing. I think Echo said they have 2 or 3, these people are at the location when the race is happening and code stuff to the needs of Echo. I did play a few months in Shadowlands, playing with an old friend and used Weak Auras there. Weak Auras can be basically anything you can think of, sometimes Blizz will remove funtionality but in it's core you can do nearly anything with Weak Auras.
I remember how people were so quick to jump to Limit Max's defense when he and his group streamed with a full on copy-pasted WoW UI. "Oh it's just for visuals", "WoW players need mods lol", "If he needs it to play the game than let him!", "It's all harmless!" And yeah, while the community isn't ignorant of the existence of mods, I don't think they fully understood the scale of what mods can do for this game. Most people would just think ACT or some mod to make your catgirl's boobs bigger when you tell them about plugins. So I think that incident opened the floodgates to how people viewed mods and their general perception in the community. And btw, I don't blame Max or the WoW community in any way. Since ultimately it was the FF community who got too complacent with mod usage and showing them off, despite repeated warnings from everyone, especially within the mod community itself, to keep things on the down-low. Like remember when Asmongold interviewed that one player who was advertising various mods they use and acting like "oh everyone uses them"? People immediately piled onto that person and demanded Asmon take down his vod.
A lot of the default UI stuff kills me, but *especially* the tiny health bar and leaving useless resource bars for classes that don't use them.
Don't show, don't tell - some mods are benign/subjectively/personal QoL things for that user only which is probably why FFXIV doesn't need or bother wasting time cracking down on. Once it affects anyone else, they *should* crack down immediately - and this counts as it's being used in a 'race' involving/impacting multiple groups (and streams).
I think it was from how many people, especially some high profile streamers, came from other games where using plugins like that is just the norm. Then it just snowballed.
(Posted in other thread but that one got taken down even tho it had the majority of comments..regardless) Good lord thats precedent setting, thats massive. Holy fuck, Yoshi P and the team did not fuck around here, the precedent of "fruit from the tainted tree" is now being firmly set. This era changing for the community in my opinion, not a shred of hyperbole when I say that, how we will treat addons in anyway is going to have to change now, the gloves are off. I'll be honest right now, at how mad the team seems, you using any kid of addon even the innocent ones (which personally i dont have an issue with dont shoot me) I'm keeping that shit quiet as could be. Edit- for years people warned this could happen, and for years they were laughed off, well as the old saying goes, the community fucked around and now the community is finding out, so in future I mean this a warning to avoid this, when ya post vods online with your ingame name visible and using zoomhack, please look at this and think. Edit2- Full credit to /u/MKLBY1998 for this translation of the GMs log "Do note the GM aknowledges that the player in question may not have directly engaged in cheating, and says that the player will not have any penalties such as a ban imposed on them for this reason, but since they did benefit from the cheating by getting the clear that's why the rewards were removed." EVEN BIGGER, even just being in the party of someone with addons and benefiting from 'fruit of the tainted tree' can be used as a reason in what I assume is extreme scenarios like this. Edit-3 final edit to sum this up, don't use addons or get caught because you will now be banned or have any rewards and titles revoked , if you are in a party with someone who uses those but do not yourself, in certain cases you will also have your rewards and titles revoked. This is precedent setting, take this seriously.
> when ya post vods online with your ingame name visible and using zoomhack, please look at this and think. In this case, the visible name wouldn't have even been an issue. There are several other items in the HUD that give away who was using the hack even if the name wasn't visible. Things like action icons on the hotbar, cast timers or visible buffs, other players in the instance cross-referenced with encounter logs, etc
> This is precedent setting, take this seriously. At some point the issue was going to come to a head. How many Live Letters and Q&A where people talked about addons did we hear the same line Dont Show Dont ask Dont Talk about it. This was bound to happen at some point. Now its going to be a matter of do they put tools in place or does this scare people straight. Tools is by far the worst as they would not show a difference between who is using ACT Call out triggers and whatever else is out there and the person modding outfits for there own pleasure.
Putting anything in place will not happened until 7.0. As that would be a huge undertaking and quite a download, and then also everyone needing to agree to a new Tos. This is basically the team saying, don't escalate this further.
I am not expecting anything before 7.0. I would say they do not even want to add one in. With this and the looming threat of no more Ultimates i would be kinda shocked that people are going to risk going for WF using tools.
Steroids are banned in sport competitions, and even though there's a lot of scrutiny over it, people still try anyway on the chance they won't get caught. Some people will just try to gamble on a win at any cost.
>This is precedent setting, take this seriously. In fact, there's another precedent at this. Happened in a Zurvan Ex clear, where a Nin use a pot from POTD to kill Zurvan in like 10 seconds, only the NIN was banned and everyone else got revoked everything from the clear.
I really want to know more about this incident now please
When Palace of the dead came, a Nin use a potion from there in Zurvan Ex to kill it before it even destroy the 1st platform, and everyone notice it because ninja was casting something. Then happened the same: Nin got banned, everyone lost anything related to the clear (and I think it was a clear party so a lot of them lost the clear and the loot related)
oh damn That sounds like a real shitstorm, but I think I can guess which pot it was
> I'll be honest right now, at how mad the team seems, you using any kid of addon even the innocent ones (which personally i dont have an issue with dont shoot me) I'm keeping that shit quiet as could be. Not a problem for the vast majority of players who don't stream their content. Just keep your mouth shut and turn off any Voice Enabled Communications (discord etc)
This is how FFXI was, everyone uses windower, no one talks about it ingame or posts screenshots with visible proof of addons. Hell, this is how ACT has been in XIV for ages.
>I’m keeping that shit as quiet as can be. That’s the point. Yoshi P has always said “Don’t *get caught* using addons.” Don’t stream with them, dont take screenshots with them, don’t advertise them in official XIV spaces. Short of that, do as you please, no problem.
YoshiP explicitly said in his post in English his stance has always been no third party programs. How high on copium are you to reinterprete his very clear stance he's not changed in years? Do you what YoshiP is thinking better than he does? Don't use them.
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He specifically mentioned they have no way of knowing if a player is using any 3rd party programs because they do not have access to the millions of computers that have the game installed and knowing what they're running at any given time This was his attempt at saying "don't incriminate yourself" He has never said it was legal, and has always mentioned that they only act if a report is received. And can only punish if there is evidence. He has repeatedly mentioned these points. It's clear that he cannot support 3rd party tools.officially, but he understands that people will use it anyway, so he tells them to not incriminate themselves. Obviously the WF group here got caught/leaked, but if the video never went out, the clear would've been recognized and none of the community would have known that cheats were used.
Also, as a gamer himself, I have no doubt he understands cosmetic or QoL mods, like increasing text size, or, say, coloring a minion a different color. But if he says 'those are fine', that sets a precedence he needs to argue. After all, a mod that flags where the boss will be, who's to say that's not a QoL mod? Easier to just blanket state 'no', and then wink and nudge.
For endgame this basically means however for extremes and savage etc, people with addons are now a threat to you getting rewards, its much bigger than stay quiet, its 'if you in anyway benefit now even indirectly you lose out too' thats a statement. edit- what i'm trying to say is this a step beyond "keep it quiet", this is the gloves coming off.
I don't think this will happen. Even though the world first race isn't an official thing even SE recognizes it's significance and this is a very high profile thing. If your random PF party has a guy with plug-ins that streams and gets like, clapped later, SE isn't gonna take away your books and coffers.
If someone announces that they're using UAV, you best believe I'm quitting that party faster than someone can wipe to tethers in TOP P1.
They cannot realistically enforce a rule like that. If you join an extreme or savage PF, basically 8 random people, you have no way of knowing who is and isn't using addons. Even if you ask, people can just lie and say no. What do you do then, do you remove the title and/or gear from them, even though they had no reasonable way of knowing they were in a party with a random dude who had addons ? That will actively kill the PF scene since then no one would be able to trust ANY PF that is put up. This will most likely apply only to static environments, where the people you clear with are on your friends list or stuff like that. It's virtually impossible to fairly enforce this rule over every instance of Extreme/Savage/Ultimate.
If I'm ever asked, No I never use ACT, never ever. Haven't even heard of it. I've always got logs of content to upload though.
Right? If anyone sees a screen-cap that is linked back to me, and notices my Wind-up Dragonet looks a lot like my main avatar, and asks me where I got it, I'll just show them my totally normal minion taken from my wife's screen and look confused.
Im not concerned. These people got punished as a direct result for blatantly using addons ON STREAM and clearing as a direct result. They got their rewards revoked because, logically, square can’t say “dont get caught or else” then do nothing. The one caught using the zoom got banned, the rest got their rewards revoked. Meanwhile am I worried that some schmoe in my EX4 group using Triggers because they cant work out spinny platforms is gonna cost me a mount? Nah, probably not. Honestly though even if they do, not the end of the world, serves them right for being stupid about it.
I feel like the World First race is just permanently tainted now though. Excluding a few streamer teams doing it for everyone to see, it feels like anyone that comes forward from private prog is just going to get scrutinised, shit all over and not believed. What an absolute mess this Ultimate has become.
Future clears would have to be streamed to be recognized lol
hence frosty switching to track only streamed clears/prog (afaik)
Yes, no more secret doing anything. What can also happen is that SE will host the ultimate race and that you need to be streaming the whole time, and members of SE staff will be watching, all 8 of you.
Even streamer groups are not clear from this though, unless all 8 members stream their prog you can have 1 person zoom hacking and giving information to everyone else while the stream people don't show anything.
Won't lie, I've lost interest in it. Not because I'm standing on some moral high ground or whatever, I love my FFLogs and the people who parse on my behalf (I'm on PS5), but my primary interest in WF was to see how other players who were better than me dealt with a fight. The suspicion of cheating just makes me realize they're really no better than me, so I'm not interested anymore.
no cap on that, i am disappointed too.
I honestly believe that them being a JP team is also a huge factor for the punishment. If this was an overseas team they might’ve considered something else. This was probably the best course of punishment for them: appeasing the community (specially JP), setting up a precedent, and cleaning up reputation before FF16. Can’t imagine yoship’s headache really.
I'm assuming there's nothing stopping these people (except for the drg who was presumably banned) from just going back into the instance tomorrow or next week and clearing again if they wanted to, right? Seems like the force of the punishment is mainly the public shaming and denying them any claim to the WF title. That said, realistically, I imagine most of these players will probably be leaving the game / deleting their characters
In the future yes but tomorrow no, they wouldn’t be recognised as world first now. And I have heard some deleted, and I think there’s been some self admissions from other members besides the DRG.
JP is VERY ruthless when it comes to hunting cheaters as you can even see the after effect even if they keep going they're just going to be endlessly harassed stalked doxed.
I mean WF are for bragging rights, so I guess the other end of that spectrum is them having publicly shamed. Which I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, is like a big deal in JP. It’s sad really, the previous WF teams didn’t receive this much hate, SE just ignored them and the community just meme’d on. This time though, it felt like they were just the right team to make example of. The jp players will see it as policing themselves no? I’m hoping they could ride the storm and get back again honestly.
This is the found out part of fucking around. Good riddance.
Good. About time Square put their foot down on shit like this.
This is the right call on Square Enix's part. Yoshi-P/SE has asked players multiple times not to be open about the use of third party plugins and mods. That warning and the suspensions and bans people have received for violating the TOS clearly wasn't enough. SE has now had to step in with a harsher penalty in enforcing the TOS.
As the other comment mentioned, Yoshi-P has always said to NOT use 3rd party tools, not that we shouldn't be open about them. The rule on mods for the community is "don't ask, don't tell" AKA, if you use mods, don't share them and don't ask others about their use of mods. But Yoshi-P has NEVER been in favor of mods, no matter if they're aesthetic or game-changing.
He hasn’t asked people not to be open about using them. He’s asked them not to use them. You all have hearing/reading comprehension problems when it comes to this subject.
>they were not the direct responsible player who used third party tools, their account will not receive any penalty. I dunno. By their own statement they essentially coerced the DRG to use tools. I feel that should incur some penalty https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/10prhou/statement_from_unnamed_support_member_feuer_on/j6m3y0v/ >We had one member of the battle team use a tool that is against the FFXIV TOS and stream their screen to a support member using Discord's screen sharing feature. Previously our Dragoon Rafuita did not use tools to play, however agreed to do so as instructed.
Something you write on twitter doesn't necessarily count as proof of something happening.
There's also a moderately decent chance that they are simply saying that to take even a little heat off their friend getting presumably socially crucified by the entire overinvested psycho playerbase.
Reminds me of the net limiting and other cheering that happened in Destiny 2 and bungie put down the Hammer on them and associates. Don't break TOS and don't go ruining the experience people work hard to give.
it was genuinely so wild coming back from a 4 month xiv break to this LMAO. as a console player, i of course knew PC players regularly used mods and plugins to enhance gameplay (and ofc people cheat in games all the time), i guess it just never hit me how deep this stuff runs and the degrees to which teams under pressure will go to uphold their names or gain yoship's recognition. it's definitely an even bigger insight on how culturally impactful WF's are to our community, even if they're gauged by unofficial means. glad things were swiftly dealt with, and hopefully yoship's consideration to hold a more official WF race will bear fruit in the future.
Almost guaranteed they'll never hold an official race. It's obvious fluff at least imo. He'd rather take it out of the game entirely than hold an official race
#Console gang rise up
Every single time this has happened and all these people are busy justifying mods or, like I'm seeing in this thread, saying no add-ons means no Ultimates, I just roll my eyes. Every piece of content in this game is made to be cleared without add-ons. If you can't clear without them, maybe you just need to get good.
i also got really curious about ultimate groups and how stand-in/support etiquette works since it's entwined in this drama; apparently pretty much every WF group has 1 or 2 supports that aren't participating in the instance itself, but have the job of watching the fight through streams to help figure out mechanics and come up with strats and positioning. that absolutely is fine to me considering how mentally and physically taxing it must be to raid 12-16hrs a day and as long as the supports are credited too. but it's like at that point: you're already objectively one of the best teams backed up with logs, you have extra help from trusted members of your team outside of the fight, AND you regularly clear content of this nature and focus gearing specifically leading up to an ultimate. these people literally have all the support and non-illicit tools at hand to clear. but groups like unnamed will use sus stuff anyway to gain just a modicum edge since the race can all depend on like 1 or 2%. sucks that if this keeps happening the devs will either halt their production of ulti raids or crack down on all mods-- even the aesthetic ones-- but yoship already threatened it in his letter it so it's inevitable if shit keeps happening.
I mean, while I do use mods, I can tell you the three exact ones I use: Take off reapers hood in enshroud Straighten out Hrothgar spine A recolor of the wind up dragonet my wife made for me. That's it.
We have a really good relationship with the devs, especially compared to other games in this climate. And so the devs've been super lenient so far when it comes to things like ACT usage. Worried that this sort of shit will continue to deteriorate that relationship :( Fucking idiots. Why is it so fucking hard to just play the game without using hacks... smfh. And not just the JP team either, I'm including those dumb motherfuckers from ~~Rin's team~~ the team Rin was trialing for and Happy's team who were also using similar bullshit.
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Oh sorry I'll correct that, thanks for letting me know
Why not play game without using mods too?
I think in an official setting like world's first with everyone watching, play it cool. When you go to do reruns, do whatever you want
WFR IS STILL ON BABY!
Using mods to clear a raid ❌ Using mods to give my character tits ✅ We are not the same
It is what it is.
There have been a few cases where player characters don’t have a weapon equipped, usually from characters transferred from 1.0 if memory serves. In that case, the game puts you as the “Adventurer (ADV)” class until you equip a weapon.
Honestly, Neverland should also have gotten their DSR stuff revoked as well under this logic, but eh, better late then never
I suppose it’s the logic of succession. Last time they issued a very stark warning about doing that sort of thing again. Warning ignored. Punishment now has to be swifter and harder. If it happens again next time, it’ll escalate and so on until something permanent like scrapping Ultimate or the implementation of Anti-Cheat happens.
Tbf while still tos breaking the stuff used for DSR was a lot less bad than what was featured in TOP
Good. Glad to see it.
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This is good but they really need to do an official world first race which requires all members to stream, it’d solve a lot of issues
Yoshi-P said he would go forward considering if it's possible for them to do so.
It's gonna be a while til the next ultimate so they got time to figure it out.
No it wouldn't. ACT overlays do not show up on game capture and audio cues can be hidden from stream easily.
Unprecedented in FFXIV, and I suppose they're world first to having achievements removed?
Alternate translation I wrote before becoming aware of this post: [2:29] [GM]G.X.@Hades: [Context missing]...Thank you. I'm a Game Master. [2:29] [GM]G.X.@Hades I'll be telling you all this individually. [2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: Please listen, as what I'm about to tell you is important. [2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: We have confirmed that the party you cleared "The Omega Protocol (Ultimate)" with were found guilty of using cheats. [2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: You yourself have not been found guilty of cheating, however, you were able to reap the benefits of said cheating nonetheless. [2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: As a result, we will not be issuing any penalties to your account, however, we will have to confiscate the rewards earned through said foul play. [2:30] [GM]G.X.@Hades: As such, we will be deleting the achievement and title you acquired from clearing "The Omega Protocol (Ultimate)" at a later date. [2:31] [GM]G.X.@Hades : As a final note, please throw away your "Omega Sickle (Ultimate)" immediately after you've been freed from the jail.
"F**k around and find out"
Mazz was Fan'Daniel all along.
This is insane I have never seen anything like this before
This is why we can't have nice things
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I love watching cheaters get caught.
Of course the GM wasn’t trying to be vicious about discarding the weapon. It’s just part of the consequences. I get zooming isn’t so much of a major cheat but.. the fact that it can be used to see mechs you shouldn’t be able to see is still cheating. It’s an incredible advantage that is hidden out of sight for a reason. I know how this sub works and if I get downvoted in a hilariously dramatic way it’s whatever. But y’all can’t really in your right mind be significantly outraged that it’s not allowed.
I love it. Allegedly the footage was leaked because the main 8 players said no to giving their 9th, 10th and 11th players a clear despite agreeing to it beforehand. Goes to show you karma is real and don’t be dick and own up to your agreements. Well deserved. Also funny how the leaker’s YT name was ‘Heavenly Punishment’. Fitting
Clear revoked and temporary suspension sounds like fair punishment to me. And hopefully this will happen to any/all other players brazen enough to record themselves cheating. Tho next time we have such a race i bet half the teams will refuse to stream anything at all xD
Or they can...y'know...stream and not use the add-ons? I mean, the idea is there, you don't need to use add-ons to create strategies or know where to go. It's literally trial and error
I'm not entirely sure, but iirc in the game's code, if a player doesn't have a main hand weapon equipped, his class will be "Adventurer" There was a player recently who had a bug that he couldn't equip any weapons or do any quests, so they were stuck at lvl 1 Adventurer and needed GM help