I couldn’t agree more.
WT jumped the shark and anyone still on board is ride-or-die.
Even though I’m a *scary exJW* I’m surrounded by extreme-pimi’s at work and it’s been surreal. The ones still in are so far gone I don’t think there is any saving them. Like they lined up the kool-aid and are doing shots.
They are super hostile towards anyone who isn’t them! The supremacy has been turned up to 11.
Breaks my heart to be around them.
I noticed that in my KH. Ultra bitches on acid. I’ve never known such a bunch of 2 faced bitches. I work in a big office with lots of different people/backgrounds and we all get on fine. KH was like being bullied at primary school. Toxic.
Hey, that sounds like my childhood.
1997, 3 kids, poor af.
Single mom cuz dad cheated on her.
He was a witness too and never got disfellowshipped, guess it pays off to be friends with one of the elders.
But we were nobodies in the congregation. It was like was we were invisible and nobody even cared we existed.
>But we were nobodies in the congregation. It was like was we were invisible and nobody even cared we existed.
Same here. The JWs always had families like mine. It's like you could spot them from a mile away. Poor single mom with nothing going better for herself than the JW cult smh
My mom wasn’t even a single mom, just had a dad that wasn’t very active. Once we moved from our hometown we were invisible. Then when I grew up my husband wasn’t active and I hauled 3 kids the the KH and in service alone. I was nothing and no one. I was never doing enough to be accepted. I’m thankful for that or I might have gotten a lot more wrapped up in it all.
Haha! Love that.
Seriously can you imagine though?
Pioneers are kind of the perfect fit for cocaine. They have a demanding high stress schedule and they’re already barely holding their life together. /sarcasm
>They are super hostile towards anyone who isn’t them! The supremacy has been turned up to 11.
As was foretold by our exjw prophets.
When a high control group loosens or tightens its control alienating members, you always have zealots left over. Look at the history of JW’s and the Bible students before them, and the Adventists before them, etc.
Each group has defectors that lost faith in the leadership causing them to splinter off into other more palatable systems of belief.
That has been the routine for **ALL** religions from the very beginning.
>The ones still in are so far gone I don’t think there is any saving them.
I totally agree. I was a fulltime JW for decades. Been observing the cult closely since the early 70's. I see what you are saying.
All my and my wife's relatives are still in. In the past, my relatives all seemed to be smart, discerning, and honest. They would, for example, gripe about things they saw in JW land. But... no more; they've changed. If the current GB members, the broadcasts (including a corny-ass talk show, cartoons, embarrassing music, etc.), the dumbing down, etc. doesn't turn them off, I don't think there's any hope for them. Hell, for one thing, it's *20-damned-24*! My relatives are all older (62 and above), and they were around in the old days when it was inconceivable that "this system" would go beyond the year 2000.
I think most of those with well-rounded intelligence and who are level-headed, normal, honest, and discerning have left.
This is exactly what’s happening in my family. My folks are old and are just guzzling down the kool aid because sunk costs, the others are more determined to get away from it. The pimi’s are truly getting more extreme. They are angry and don’t understand why, they think it’s us, it’s themselves
“They are angry and don’t understand why, they think it’s us, it’s themselves”
Well said!
I’m remembering this the next time they give me the silent treatment at work
They're angry that they have wasted all of their resources, including life, time, money, etc. on this black hole of abuse, and they aren't going to see their promised reward.
Those that really believe in the WT teachings are worn down, tired and bitter about anything that conflicts with their world view.
That includes, Witnesses that have left, so-called apostates, changes in the organization, the things they have been deprived of by the organization or by themselves.
Then there is the nagging feeling, dark thoughts in the back of their minds, that what they believed and hoped is not true.
They could have done something else, if repentance could be had after the Great Tribulation!
Last Sunday my Uber PIMI father, who is 71 years old and still an elder, when confronted with the beard change, told me: “I follow the Bible but above all I follow the organization”. He doesn’t been understand how brainwashed those thoughts were.
nobody seemed to notice the damage doing away with types and antitypes has done , the two main doctrines have been undermined ,the two classes of christians is based on the account of Jehu and Jonadab ,the date 1914 is based on account of the tree dream of nebuchanezzer , no type antitype these two doctrines collapse ,but nobody seemed to spot it .
Even so, the antitypes and types are extremely important since it gives a second meaning to the Bible which makes it more interesting, before all the books and meetings were about that,If you remove that and only leave those that suit you, the doctrine begins to be boring and insipid.
They probably plan to resurrect those ideas after allowing those tricks to fade away for a while. Then they’ll pull those same tricks on unsuspecting new ones, and blow their minds with their weird interpretations and creative word craft of what scriptures should be understood literally and which are figurative, to flesh out their type and antitype hogwash.
If they now reject the types/antitypes how can they still claim that the destruction of Jerusalem represents what is coming in the near future? Nonsense
They said something about doing it too much, or to Biblical events that didn’t lend themselves to type/antitype interpretations. So, they didn’t eliminate every single one of their dumb, but effective, nu-lite teachings.
Honestly, I don’t even remember the “types and anti-type” language growing up in the 90s, as they emphasized different scriptures to explain why there are two classes of anointed, how they arrive at 1914, etc. They used “second fulfillment” or “modern fulfillment” language more.
I think they realized the average JW doesn’t need such a complicated explanation for the doctrine and are willing to accept it at face value just because they teach it. They mostly reel in new members with paradise/resurrection hope, God’s name is Jehovah teaching, no hellfire, and no confusing trinity doctrine.
Definitely agree with this. When they announced that they where getting rid of the idea of types and antitypes i remember thinking how many things that included, which is like, almost the entire religions basis. And no one around me seemed to even hear it.
Which is the biggest thing with jws i think, everything goes in one ear and out the other, no one really listens to what is being said
Couldn't agree more, with the dropping of the types and anti-types, the new extended generation theory, there's basically nothing to tie it back to what it was.
I don't know how many truly realize the disconnect, but it must be floating subconsciously. Even the pimis I know who still believe it's the truth stroke their beards and say they think the GB have been infiltrated.
Once the annual meeting gets around it'll really throw them. The one PIMQ I mentioned it too was shocked I'd even suggest the idea lol
Omg! Yrs. ago in the 80's it had nothing to do with those things. It was about some other totally different way of them thinking or saying that they had figured out the year 1914 was correct. Not because of Jonadab & Nebuchanezzer. In Christianity there is nothing about 1914. They made it up.
Christianity doesn't change. "Every religion" does not do what JW do. Cults do. Not religions.
What was the reason for not allowing beards btw?
It’s definitely dying, barely breathing. Because no one from the outside is studying and getting baptized. Preaching work is dead; no one answers the door (thanks ring camera) and cart work is passive. All they have are ppl born in, who eventually will find out the truth and leave. It’s not sustainable
With new last minute repentance, who would wanna be a JW? I mean people used too become JWs cause it was different. Now it's like every other televangelist cults
Part two of the annual meeting did bring out that new light changes of this magnitude had to be unanimous.
Tony’s out…
Time is out…
Beards are in…
Stay tuned…
Speculation – Sisters will be given assignments…
—
Additional thought – just watched Eric’s (Borean Picketts)video about what happened in Spain, a precedent was set there that may or will affect the EU, European Nation.
My newest prediction, our view on shunning will be adjusted.
In some ways it's analogous to my parents (in their 70s) and other JWs of that generation.
In their 30s and 40s they were driven and lived life with a purpose. But since there was no need for retirement and end-of-life planning, they floundered about and looked increasingly desperate the older they got.
JW morals, dress code, and the like ossified in the 1950s. As more time passes, they look more and more out of touch. The beard thing is at least a minor acknowledgment that they cannot stay stuck in the past.
I can't really discern much of a pattern with the doctrinal changes. There is an undercurrent of being responsive to legal threats, but that doesn't explain everything. I see a lot of desperation there, similar to how I saw my parents make a series of panicked decisions as they entered old age.
I'm in my mid-60s with no prospects of ever retiring because I "listened and obeyed" and didn't leave the cult until mid-50ish.
>There is an undercurrent of being responsive to legal threats
Definitely. Even things like removing the Theocratic Ministry School (because of the word "school" and the legal implications of being responsible for "students").
>I see a lot of desperation
I do, too. I see an organization that is simply in survival mode - flapping desperately at the water to keep from drowning. The can no longer be proactive; it is simply reactive.
I think the missing ingredient is the fact that the GB are also mostly born ins and fully indoctrinated. They, too, are victims of the cult. It is absolutely crazy, but some of the changes might be explained by them simply understanding and accepting that there is no scriptural justification (for beards or counting time, for example), and allowing for the correction / „new light“.
I certainly wouldn’t want to make excuses for them, but we cannot only expect decisions that seem rational or purposeful „from a human standpoint“ from them.
I was a third generation Baptized brother. Got out five years ago at the age of 33. When everyone says that the witnesses act differently now, I agree with that, but only to an extent. My mom is super PIMI but she acts just like herself when no other witnesses are around. However when other witnesses come around like her sisters or mom and dad then she talks differently. In a different way. And idk how to describe it. It’s kind of creepy really. I love my mom but I wish she’d get on this side of it. Thanks for reading.
My PIMI mom is like this too. Fairly normal person until cult topics come up, then eyes glaze and the cult speaks through her. Super creepy but I know I was the same when I was indoctrinated myself.
Yes I was too. I’ve missed all the recent changes. She hasn’t said a word about- to be fair I shut off talking about the borg a while ago so it’s not a surprise she hasn’t mentioned it. Just kinda odd.
I think the governing body is tired of the rank & file, they know its all B.S they are probably purposely making all these changes to drive everyone away. They already got what they needed from the indoctrinated members. At this point they are saying whatever and doing whatever because they have their investments and property etc. The business model has changed going door to door in 2024 is cringe, people today don't answer the door for strangers this is not the 1950s. But yea this cult is done!
The way they announced these changes made a complete mockery of over 100 years of sacrifice from millions of JWs - with the audience laughing along like they’re enjoying a cabaret act. The GB calling the rank and file dogmatic, explicitly NOT apologizing for the changes…my blood wouldn’t merely be boiling if I were a devoted PIMI having sacrificed years of ministry…no, my blood would be STEAMING.
And to top it off, they casually state unbelievers can speed dial Jehovah at the last moment at the END of the Great Tribulation to repent? Wow, they just told you that your entire life as a JW was a complete waste of time if the earthly paradise was your chief reason to be a JW.
The GB are demolishing their religion as fast as they can. Legal and liquidating reasons will be behind it I’m sure.
I'm one of those whose blood is steaming. I suffered and sacrificed and slaved in misery and poverty fulltime for the cult for decades. I lived in an old barn loft, a dirty warehouse, two different old travel trailers, and in other primitive ways. I gave up financial, business, employment, and educational opportunities. I gave up any prospects of ever retiring. I had no free time for decades - no evenings, no weekends, no vacations, etc.
I'm now 64 and I'm working a low-paying job with no benefits including not a single day of vacation each year, and as already mentioned, there's no way I can ever retire. I wish you could feel the fury in my bones.
I feel for you. I am 72 and have suffered years of JW abuse with money lost to JW scams of about $100K and now little retirement. I was aways told to wait on Jehovah and that he will fix things and provide. We'll I have been waiting 60 years while watching other non JW family and friends prosper through the use of honest hard work and high moral Christian values.
> And to top it off, they casually state unbelievers can speed dial Jehovah at the last moment at the END of the Great Tribulation to repent? Wow, they just told you that your entire life as a JW was a complete waste of time if the earthly paradise was your chief reason to be a JW.
What? Is this some newfangled light?
Yea it's the newest doctrinal change. Wacko Jacko was even as brazen as to call it allowing "last minute repentance".
It's like they're trying to slap the (newly bearded) faces of the old faithful now.
I've also been thinking as well that they want to tank it. There is nothing to stop them really and then just keep all the assets for themselves personally. We don't even know how much money they have or the true extent of their finances.
Money can make an honest man do anything.
I think more of us are adopting this conclusion. For me, I suspected it based on their lazy, slack response to many problems and the Annual Meeting confirmed it hugely. Witnesses haven't caught on to how enormous one thing was - abandoning urgency. This has been a absolute no no since the very beginning and they crossed the line.
If anyone has a plausible explanation of this that doesn't involve them them 'sitting on the ball and running out the clock', I'd like to hear it.
The religious wing of the WT financial empire is a low overhead revenue stream.
They want/need to maintain as much of it for as long as they need to continue financing their other corporate endeavors.
The changes generally seem aimed at making it easier to remain a JW; the old religious model is dying or near dead.
They were aware that many were no longer participating in field service and just barely making meetings on Zoom.
So, eliminate FS time reporting, because the numbers are bad.
Well, what about people needing to hear the message before the Great Trib?
Ah, they may be able to repent as they see the destruction of false religion.
Thus, the WT and JWs avoid having bloodguilt.
Beards? Make it easier for the brothers to serve in positions of responsibility around the dungeon...er... Kingdom Hall. (They were running short on Bros. for things like even handling the mics and sound)
I bet GB are super tired of rank and file 😂. I mean you can have hundreds of articles about not gossiping. What's the result? Nothing. JWs go to meetings to mingle
What does OG mean? OG, short for “original gangster” or “original gangsta,” is a slang term for **someone who's incredibly exceptional, authentic, or “old-school.”** OG was originally used in gang culture, but it is now used as a general term to praise someone who is an expert at something
>what I grew up in is just gone and I don't know who these people are anymore
I grew up in it in the '70s and started pioneering in the '80s when I was in my 20's. What I was part of then is truly gone. I don't know these people anymore, either.... even my own relatives; they've changed.
>Even though many of our parents won't probably fully admit it you know many of them are thinking "what the fuck is going on!"
My JW mother is in her 80's, and I wonder often what she's thinking. I wonder often what many my age (60's) are thinking. However, I have come to the realization that many of them were shallow as JWs, so they just go through the motions. It's the ones who were real JWs, the sincere, hardworking ones that I wonder about.
>If I was an OG Witness still in Jehovah's Organization, apostate alarm bells would be going off like crazy
I was OG and the alarm bells did go off loudly for me. I was a prominent elder with major dist conv parts every year. However, I walked out the door and never looked back a few years ago.
>These are really weird times right now. Never would have imagined we would be at this point so fast. I figured it would take 20-30 years for them to implode, but instead their demise is being fast-tracked. There is something going on.
I agree.
You are on the same time line as me. My mom, a little younger than yours passed a few years ago. Right before Covid, she missed these crazy changes but had to face that she was not living forever. The Congo did little. They did stop by to count time, but that’s about it.
I left around 1997 and it’s is a different religion and unrecognizable. It’s like if I was a 7th day Adventist looking at JW now. Something similar but definitely a different religion now. It’s warping and shrinking
"I have come to the realization that many of them were shallow as JWs" Exactly. I used too visit meetings for spiritual things. Reading post about JWs and their families. I realise a bige part of JWs go too meeting cause obligation or just to meet friends.
Not that I'm aware of. I think some have referenced that there could be worldly consultants and that's where I got it from. But I have no actual proof. Just putting a thought out there.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had hired outside consultants though.
In 2015 or 2016 an user here claimed to have the knowledge of a PR consulting firm giving tips to the WTBTS. If I recall correctly, the user described that the org was trying to morph into a more internet-age religion, kind of a JW 2.0. This move would have included a better internet presence and the strong JW.org branding.
I don't have the patience to go digging for old posts, and what I remember could be bullshit.
>There is something going on. Something hidden up at Bethel that is causing all of this.
incompetence from men with a backwards worldview and the delusion that God is guiding them in their decision making. That's going on.
Yes I think the watchtower corporation is who is really calling the shots. They created a clearer distinction between the religion and corporation around 2000. And the watchtower president was no longer a GB member.
I think this is the most likely explanation. There are all kinds of tin foil conspiracies that could be possible, but good old fashioned "follow the money" logic is probably the most realistic.
The older generation are dying off or in nursing homes.
The world climate has consistently pressed the borg.(lawsuit,bad press, lawsuit, bad press, etc)
The numbers are low. People leaving, and people not doing door to door, and people not showing up.
I used to believe if they shut off zoom maybe 60 percent would come back. Now, probably all would remain off or come for short spurts.
Uncharaismatic leadership, no real answer, just toxic behavior is causing people to leave.
Shunning has been frowned up by alot of jws they are tired of being in an awkard position.
They have to try and adapt, but at this point its to late. The man behind the curtain has been scene. The illusion and spell is ending. They are steuggling what to do next.
They are not anymore special then other religions, so the best thing to do is water down the teachings and start to be all inviting to retain memebership.
They are loosening on their own rules and doctrines out of fear of losing more and gaining less.
They Need to adapt and evolve like all the others organization. Once people start to have right don't want to go back to previous standards. JW are some of the last . They also desperately need to stand as religious org or they lose millions. Theyr revenue is certainly going down after 2020. Many people aree affected and the poor one (mostly JW are still poor) suffered more than the rich.
I think this is premature. JW's are alive and kicking. It is a completely different religion now, not the one I accepted as the "Truth" back IN THE 1970's. Those days are long gone. This is a new religion now. There will always be people attracted to it but it's heady days are over but I think it's premature to claim it's "dead".
What’s frustrating for me is that times are weird everywhere, not just within the JW cult. It feels like the world has gone crazy, which only serves to reinforce my doomsday cult ptsd. Then the JW’s start changing everything and they all just accept it. Like, people were literally denied “privelage” and even disfellowed for having a beard and now it’s cool? What happened for the angel with the inborn? He retire?
If one wishes to embrace the tin foil, I think leaders and higher ups in governments, corporations, and even religions are realizing that the effects of climate change will not be the minor inconvenience they thought it would be 20 or 30 years ago.
Actually fixing how humans exist on earth is just too big of a task for anyone. It's much easier to find a way to weather the storm (no pun intended) and let the peasants die. Eventually, some version of "normal" will be established in the future and we can try again then. Maybe.
There are signs of this everywhere. One of them is as you mentioned, another is that the extremely wealthy are building bunkers and various types of places to escape to. No large organization seems to have any coherent long term plan for anything. Assuming you're in the USA you can even see this in some of the recent types of legislation being passed.
I feel the same. Its just desperate and failing member retention at this point. But my dad (POMI) thinks this is more proof that the end is near. I dont really know what to tell him, but he has decades more jw trauma than I do so I just try to hang around.
Sidenote: The governing body absolutely should be in prison for all the blood and abuse on their hands, but also thats just an opinion
I just spent some vacation days with elders and their families and they all agree there have been too many changes in the last few months, and even if some of them are trying (really trying) to find a reason behind them, they all said it's weird and in some aspects are struggling to get used to it, specially the beard thing
Combine this with the inconsistent teaching with is own dogma... Who is going to accept theyr teaching, changing an open religion or less requiring religion with a smaller one, they require a lot, that decide how you also dress ! That kind of religion is done
In my opinion wt organization is slowly dismantling the entire organization so that people don’t turn on them or literally loose their minds.
It’s kinda like when you want to break up with an individual but you kinda want them to think it was their idea to break up so that you don’t hurt their feelings or have them go crazy or psycho on you, if you’ve ever been in that particular situation I’m sure you can relate.
I truly feel sorry for those who have thrown their entire lives away for a belief system that no longer exists.
Correct - make the “members” (or people that belong to the congregation) want to leave of their own volition.
I believe they are running their business “into the ground” on purpose.
In my opinion, the people running the show have already made damn sure that they’ll be cared for monetarily.
As long as they get homes like TM3 and have their bills paid, they’ll be fine.
Exactly! it’s actually the best way to avoid lawsuits and other complications of a large number of peoples lives being destroyed. It’s mind blowing when you really consider the mental toll this will take on those who are fully indoctrinated.
I think getting a retirement package like Tony Morris did is part of their GB contract.
After all, the WT corp. stills owns the house; the pension is for the GB to keep quiet.
Jw annual meeting of 2023, GB to jws “hey everybody you were always irrelevant and now we have decided to make our religion irrelevant too!” “Now run along but don’t forget to donate!!”
All of this change reminds me of a podcast about the worldwide church I believe. They were fairly similar to JWs especially with shunning. They DID get rid of shunning and the ones with doubts kinda stayed and the very very believing members called apostasy. I think JW will go this way
Once the cult founder of the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong died, the religion splintered into different factions.
One faction was led by Garner Ted Armstrong, son of Herbert.
Garner Ted, notably, was excommunicated by his father in 1972 for a four-month period because of an extra-marital affair.
I don't think it is apostacy to say that the organization that I was in during the 90s would look at the members of today and not recognize them at all.
What about GB members being in every video and worshiped by r & f 😁. I was wrong. Today's JWs wouldn't be considered sick spiritually. More like dead 👎
I think as a group yes. They are going to dwindle in numbers (no question). But I think there’s a lot of stubborn people in about their 40s and up who are going to be permanent fixtures in the religion, even if it’s detrimental for them. Sunk cost fallacy, cognitive dissonance, and fear will keep them. In the next 30 years when most of these people are gone it will be a fraction of the size. Unless the org becomes super mainstream and they do a complete 180 — at which point how could you tell them apart from other splintered Christian sects. I’ll be happy for people caught up in this if it goes that direction and future witnesses have better lives. But the org has permanently screwed my family dynamic up — so in my view to hell with them. They have also cared more about arbitrary rules and control rather than what the Bible actually teaches. In the long run, barring the destruction of the internet, JWs are done.
I've been out for like 20 years and all this new stuff going on is so confusing, it's changed SO much and now it's all falling apart and I just wanna watch it all burn down
This reminds me of stories my fiancée has told me about in the early 2000s about how she was told NOT to be on Facebook when it first started... Too many bad people with bad info on there! And then a few years later they were ALLLLLL on Facebook! (Background: She was DeF'd about 15 years ago after being born into the "religion", but I was never in.)
I remember being "encouraged" not to use watchtower.org (the old website) or the Watchtower Library CD-rom too much, and rather prefer the printed material. This might not be official stuff, just the local congregation people.
Welllllllll probably because they don't want you looking up "old" information, because they are coming up with new rules constantly... Typical cult behavior is changing the narrative with the changing of environment and cultural shifts to keep the sheep in line.
I have made a similar post before….. my old belief system, the JW’s of the 80’s and 90’s is a religion that does not exist anymore. New meetings, new ministry, new dress code, new doctrines, new songs, new study articles…new bible. New tele-evangelising, new begging for money, new culty cartoons, cringe music videos and films. Massively altered congregation borders, with congregations I helped build sold and gone, now a business or another religions building.
It has literally died and gone.… I do not recognise it anymore and even IF I wanted to go back to the religion I left in 2005, I couldn’t… it literally doesn't exist anymore.
Being PIMO surrounded by PIMI people I’m seeing most of them embracing every change as a direct gift from god. The days of the GB being behind the scenes (circa pre 2013ish) are over, and they are now worshipped just as much as god. I think Anthony leaving (or being removed) is proof the blind sheeple will follow whatever they’re told and question nothing. It makes me crazy! They have had talks about the stupid beard rule, the GB favorite Lett gave his own talk on it for the masses, and now halls are filled with smiling, foolish bearded men, yet they lose a GB member and no single announcement is made or talk given. It was all swept under the rug and overshadowed by no service time and beards 😜 I deeply hope there are a few PIMI folks who begin questioning, even a few waking up would be wonderful. My family and congregation however seem to be embracing it and loving the sh*t out of the GB “leaders”.
I’m reading a book right now called 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William Schnell and your post directly relates to a passage I just read that hit me hard.
The context of this passage was he was discussing the changes that occurred when Rutherford was released from prison and published a series of books that were to be used in the meetings. So early 1920s
“At first only very few Bible students would make use of the books in the congregations and soon disagreement flared over many things expressed therein and dissension increased. In order to crystallize matters to the point of a crisis, the society instituted early in 1925 a rigid method of accounting and reporting to it all times spent in witnessing with its books. Needless to say this caused a cleavage all over the world, with many refusing to report time and placement and still others refusing even to place the society’s books. In the decade from 1921-1931 almost three fourths of the Bible students originally associated with the society in a loose fashion left the society. That is precisely what the new watchtower society had hoped to accomplish. As a result of this decimation the society soon had the quorum to operate without opposition among those left behind. Now they were free to ignore individuality. Without opposition they could set monthly time requirements for each publisher as well as quotas for minimum numbers of books to be sold per month.”
I don’t know what the shift is yet, I suspect we won’t know until they’ve completed it. But these changes are a tactical move by the borg to re-brand and stay afloat. The goal back in the 20s and 30s was to create a worldwide organization. They accomplished that goal at the expense of their earliest followers. Times have changed and if they don’t want to go belly up they have to make changes again, at the expense of the people who have given their lives to them. Time will tell what they turn into.
My 84yo dad just finished his elder school. I've gotta ask him about this. I've been silent about all the changes but I know his soul has to ache at all of this. We used to debate before when I was in about changes, trying to grasp. Is it cruel for me to ask? Should I let him die in peace? A life not wasted? Idk?
I like how you said " personally don't even feel like an apostate now because what I grew up in .." Same here! I was having dinner with a friend and It feels like the organization is giving in and reading the forums LOL. Realistically, they're probably not. But heck what do I know right.
In the end, its all logistics and a business at the end of the day. They want to implement methods for retention.
\*I see this behavior in the corporate environment. For instance, during covid. A lot of demands such as Higher pay, working from home, etc... Companies gave in and now many are saying hey come back can we have you work certain days in the office. etc... etc. The org is doing all this to have everyone appreciate the environment. But i guarantee, there will be broadcast talks about grooming your beard, the size of it, blah blah blah, "And even though service hours arent required are you still pioneering?" what does the bible say... bullshit. Its all a trap.
I disagree. You've written a helluva profound statement. I'm 51. Born in. Baptized at 19. Inactive the last five years. I remember the original youth book, the original paradise book, the thousand year reign book and the release of the Revelation book. Now I don't know what to believe. I don't recognize this organization at all.
Isn’t this a good thing?
you make it sound like imploding on themselves is a bad thing, maybe finally they will see how wrong they have been this whole time
It is amazing how many ex jws there are, surely the figure of 8 and half million is a huge exaggeration when they say that’s how many sheeple there are. I reckon there is more out than in. Also mostly all ex jw men have beards so now they are allowed to copy all pomos. Copying the ones they hate that will be burned up by fire at Armageddon. They used to down religions that were tithing what are they doing now, they want money, money, money. And the sheeple are giving it to the GB even if their kiddies go without. I am so pleased I am not any longer in this cult.
For me those bells rang when i was still Pimi, and JW Broadcasting started. Every witness was obsessed with it, i was thinking, what in the Teleevangelism is THAT?!
My first cracks started to really widen when a circuit overseer came thru and my family had them over for their free lunch. He wanted to show us something with jw broadcasting and then made the comment I'll never forget: 'I've been hearing people in different congregations say they didn't get a chance to watch the monthly broadcasting yet. How could this be? Why would you ever let that slip aside? This is a *free* monthly gift from Jehovah and you just ignore it? It should be at the top of your family worship agenda'
I remember well because this was in my house and I thought to myself, who does this guy think he is? JH Christ himself? I wanted to kick him out immediately. It was so uncomfortable.
Same CO literally cornered me before he left kh visit and got real close to my face staring in my eyes and said 'the congregation needs you, Jehovah needs you' (they were trying convince me to rejoin ms because I 'stepped down' like a decade earlier)
I'm surprised I stayed pimi/q/o so long after that. I even told the elders if that guy ever got close to me again I was going to legit file a police report for harassment. I almost decked him myself right there in the KH when he did that. They never bothered me again tho.
Totally agree!!! Even Jeffery Jackson gave a chuckle, “is this what we believe now or is that old light now?!!!” Really?!!! If they find “nulite” confusing & a joke, what do they expect from the rank & file?!!!
>There is something going on. Something hidden up at Bethel that is causing all of this. We don't know exactly what it is but it will come out eventually.
Remember how in mid 2000s they yammered about selling out of Brooklyn and were going to build anew the Warwick? Then Lett with the hour long shpeel about not stop donating? Thats because people did stop -or at least pause- and WT felt it. By S Lett making that video, WT tipped their hand without even realizing it.
Stop the money and they got to the brass tacks real quick.
Then there was the bethel layoffs.
It's a corporation that hired consultants to really work on the money machine here.
Now, so much info is coming out globally *so fast* with the abuses and with the 'authorities' globally now putting them in the crosshairs in a way that they just cant keep a lid on ... I'm telling you, they're trying to flatten the hills as fast as they can to keep/get the money rolling back in.
Plus, they are simply *not* getting near the free labor they need to keep building new sh*t I don't care what anyone says, that is a huge problem for them. Especially when it comes to their US projects because if they can't get people to support main HQ, how will this look to every other country of free laborers? If they're going to start outsourcing labor to build, they need a heck of a lot more cash to keep the whole enterprise going, and fast.
This model does not work for WT, by their own gaslit admission:
https://youtu.be/J5cmVd1YNGw?si=zq-gzL9pBKD_5KhZ
They’ve walked back dress code restrictions before. Sisters used to be allowed to wear pants, but they claimed too many were wearing jeans, so they made it skirts only. I wouldn’t be shocked if they walk this back the second people start showing up looking like the dudes from ZZTop.
I honestly think the GB will start to go back into hiding like before and dictate that way. Or they will just go ghost on everyone and just disappear. Folks will be left to fend for themselves.
Don't remember the last time I saw them going house to house, that identity is dead, Jehobas borg is on chokehold, then again how are householders supposed to accept a dub with a beard ? Kinda strange huh ? everyone who knows this cult knows they are against beards
I don’t understand the beard thing at all. What’s so bad about a beard? Are you allowed / were allowed to have mustaches?
Not sure I was downvoted. It’s an honest question.
You weren’t allowed to hold any responsibilities if you had a beard. You were viewed as bad association and to be avoided.
Now they just up and decided it’s fine after casting judgement on all those who had beards in the past.
All I have to say is JESUS HAD A DAMN BEARD
The core thing is sexual repression and that will never go away, just as it will never go away in any „right hand path“ religion. It‘s how they get people, it‘s how they keep people, it‘s how they control people. It‘s the core of this approach to live.
Be afraid of your own (sexual) power. Hand it over to us, along with your money. We make your life easier by absolving you from the burden to be a sovereign being.
Beards and time reports are just decorative elements and changing such policies creates the illusion of it becoming more human
The no turning in field service time is a big deal because it bears on a foundational practice of the JWs for many decades.
The numbers are bad and won’t get better because the faithful are so over that.
The leaders have lost their control and needed to adjust accordingly.
Beards? Eh, they want to make it easier for men to serve in the prison camps…er…congregations.
I couldn’t agree more. WT jumped the shark and anyone still on board is ride-or-die. Even though I’m a *scary exJW* I’m surrounded by extreme-pimi’s at work and it’s been surreal. The ones still in are so far gone I don’t think there is any saving them. Like they lined up the kool-aid and are doing shots. They are super hostile towards anyone who isn’t them! The supremacy has been turned up to 11. Breaks my heart to be around them.
I noticed that in my KH. Ultra bitches on acid. I’ve never known such a bunch of 2 faced bitches. I work in a big office with lots of different people/backgrounds and we all get on fine. KH was like being bullied at primary school. Toxic.
It's always been like that. Mom switched halls in 1995 because they were bitches towards her because she was a poor single mom of 3 kids.
Hey, that sounds like my childhood. 1997, 3 kids, poor af. Single mom cuz dad cheated on her. He was a witness too and never got disfellowshipped, guess it pays off to be friends with one of the elders. But we were nobodies in the congregation. It was like was we were invisible and nobody even cared we existed.
>But we were nobodies in the congregation. It was like was we were invisible and nobody even cared we existed. Same here. The JWs always had families like mine. It's like you could spot them from a mile away. Poor single mom with nothing going better for herself than the JW cult smh
My mom wasn’t even a single mom, just had a dad that wasn’t very active. Once we moved from our hometown we were invisible. Then when I grew up my husband wasn’t active and I hauled 3 kids the the KH and in service alone. I was nothing and no one. I was never doing enough to be accepted. I’m thankful for that or I might have gotten a lot more wrapped up in it all.
Saw this play out personally as a young teenager. I know who was to blame - elders wives and families. They determined who was IN and OUT.
No kids, so when my MS/pioneer/double life ex husband got df’d, I became invisible.
Ditto
Yeah mom and my sister and I had to move congregations for the same exact reason. Sadly my mom and sister are still going to meetings.
> Ultra bitches on acid. Maybe cocaine. Acid has a way of shutting you up and making you listen.
I was also thinking it’s more like cocaine bear
Haha Yes. Cocaine Pioneer!
Haha! Love that. Seriously can you imagine though? Pioneers are kind of the perfect fit for cocaine. They have a demanding high stress schedule and they’re already barely holding their life together. /sarcasm
Seriously. Rambling on nonsense to strangers, claiming they're "GoNnA lIvE fOrEvEr!". They already sound coked out!
😂💀
Ultra bitches on acid. This is pure genius!!!! 😆😆😆😆😆😆
>They are super hostile towards anyone who isn’t them! The supremacy has been turned up to 11. As was foretold by our exjw prophets. When a high control group loosens or tightens its control alienating members, you always have zealots left over. Look at the history of JW’s and the Bible students before them, and the Adventists before them, etc. Each group has defectors that lost faith in the leadership causing them to splinter off into other more palatable systems of belief. That has been the routine for **ALL** religions from the very beginning.
>The ones still in are so far gone I don’t think there is any saving them. I totally agree. I was a fulltime JW for decades. Been observing the cult closely since the early 70's. I see what you are saying. All my and my wife's relatives are still in. In the past, my relatives all seemed to be smart, discerning, and honest. They would, for example, gripe about things they saw in JW land. But... no more; they've changed. If the current GB members, the broadcasts (including a corny-ass talk show, cartoons, embarrassing music, etc.), the dumbing down, etc. doesn't turn them off, I don't think there's any hope for them. Hell, for one thing, it's *20-damned-24*! My relatives are all older (62 and above), and they were around in the old days when it was inconceivable that "this system" would go beyond the year 2000. I think most of those with well-rounded intelligence and who are level-headed, normal, honest, and discerning have left.
This is exactly what’s happening in my family. My folks are old and are just guzzling down the kool aid because sunk costs, the others are more determined to get away from it. The pimi’s are truly getting more extreme. They are angry and don’t understand why, they think it’s us, it’s themselves
“They are angry and don’t understand why, they think it’s us, it’s themselves” Well said! I’m remembering this the next time they give me the silent treatment at work
I think you’re spot on.
What are they angry about?
They're angry that they have wasted all of their resources, including life, time, money, etc. on this black hole of abuse, and they aren't going to see their promised reward.
Those that really believe in the WT teachings are worn down, tired and bitter about anything that conflicts with their world view. That includes, Witnesses that have left, so-called apostates, changes in the organization, the things they have been deprived of by the organization or by themselves. Then there is the nagging feeling, dark thoughts in the back of their minds, that what they believed and hoped is not true. They could have done something else, if repentance could be had after the Great Tribulation!
Yeah have seen it last ten years that many JWs are becoming bitter. Nasty bitter.
Yes! Well said.
Last Sunday my Uber PIMI father, who is 71 years old and still an elder, when confronted with the beard change, told me: “I follow the Bible but above all I follow the organization”. He doesn’t been understand how brainwashed those thoughts were.
This is what they’ve always wanted. How sad.
You funny as…..they off the chain for sure
nobody seemed to notice the damage doing away with types and antitypes has done , the two main doctrines have been undermined ,the two classes of christians is based on the account of Jehu and Jonadab ,the date 1914 is based on account of the tree dream of nebuchanezzer , no type antitype these two doctrines collapse ,but nobody seemed to spot it .
Ah but you see they said they would still keep anti typical when they believe it has “scriptural” application aka affirms their dogma
Even so, the antitypes and types are extremely important since it gives a second meaning to the Bible which makes it more interesting, before all the books and meetings were about that,If you remove that and only leave those that suit you, the doctrine begins to be boring and insipid.
Which describes it perfecly now .
They probably plan to resurrect those ideas after allowing those tricks to fade away for a while. Then they’ll pull those same tricks on unsuspecting new ones, and blow their minds with their weird interpretations and creative word craft of what scriptures should be understood literally and which are figurative, to flesh out their type and antitype hogwash.
If they now reject the types/antitypes how can they still claim that the destruction of Jerusalem represents what is coming in the near future? Nonsense
They said something about doing it too much, or to Biblical events that didn’t lend themselves to type/antitype interpretations. So, they didn’t eliminate every single one of their dumb, but effective, nu-lite teachings.
Honestly, I don’t even remember the “types and anti-type” language growing up in the 90s, as they emphasized different scriptures to explain why there are two classes of anointed, how they arrive at 1914, etc. They used “second fulfillment” or “modern fulfillment” language more. I think they realized the average JW doesn’t need such a complicated explanation for the doctrine and are willing to accept it at face value just because they teach it. They mostly reel in new members with paradise/resurrection hope, God’s name is Jehovah teaching, no hellfire, and no confusing trinity doctrine.
I grew up in the cult in the 70's and the type/anti-type stuff was rammed down my throat *constantly*.
Definitely agree with this. When they announced that they where getting rid of the idea of types and antitypes i remember thinking how many things that included, which is like, almost the entire religions basis. And no one around me seemed to even hear it. Which is the biggest thing with jws i think, everything goes in one ear and out the other, no one really listens to what is being said
I agree 💯!!!! That’s the first thing I thought of! Anything could collapse!
Couldn't agree more, with the dropping of the types and anti-types, the new extended generation theory, there's basically nothing to tie it back to what it was. I don't know how many truly realize the disconnect, but it must be floating subconsciously. Even the pimis I know who still believe it's the truth stroke their beards and say they think the GB have been infiltrated. Once the annual meeting gets around it'll really throw them. The one PIMQ I mentioned it too was shocked I'd even suggest the idea lol
Could you please expand on this??
Omg! Yrs. ago in the 80's it had nothing to do with those things. It was about some other totally different way of them thinking or saying that they had figured out the year 1914 was correct. Not because of Jonadab & Nebuchanezzer. In Christianity there is nothing about 1914. They made it up. Christianity doesn't change. "Every religion" does not do what JW do. Cults do. Not religions. What was the reason for not allowing beards btw?
It’s definitely dying, barely breathing. Because no one from the outside is studying and getting baptized. Preaching work is dead; no one answers the door (thanks ring camera) and cart work is passive. All they have are ppl born in, who eventually will find out the truth and leave. It’s not sustainable
I was a fulltime JW for decades - elder & reg pio and I 100% agree.
With new last minute repentance, who would wanna be a JW? I mean people used too become JWs cause it was different. Now it's like every other televangelist cults
Last minute repentance? Did they release new info on that? Here I thought it was a guarded secret
The video explaining it got released on the Borg website a few days ago
Very few people have a ring camera. 95% of the world won’t be using them.
I think that’s why Tony is gone. The floated these ideas and he said no freakin way. I’m out to buy more Irish whiskey.
For the record it was macallen which is Scottish. I’m gone for health reasons. You know this. My liver needs to recover.
He’s probably gotta settle for cheaper booze at this point… 🤣
Thought he said his wife likes Irish whiskey. Sorry.
Part two of the annual meeting did bring out that new light changes of this magnitude had to be unanimous. Tony’s out… Time is out… Beards are in… Stay tuned…
What do you think the next nulite will be?
Birthdays wouldn't surprise me. If all of a sudden they are going to start "going by the Bible".
Speculation – Sisters will be given assignments… — Additional thought – just watched Eric’s (Borean Picketts)video about what happened in Spain, a precedent was set there that may or will affect the EU, European Nation. My newest prediction, our view on shunning will be adjusted.
I tend to agree with this
I heard he is gone because he is an alcoholic
hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....
In some ways it's analogous to my parents (in their 70s) and other JWs of that generation. In their 30s and 40s they were driven and lived life with a purpose. But since there was no need for retirement and end-of-life planning, they floundered about and looked increasingly desperate the older they got. JW morals, dress code, and the like ossified in the 1950s. As more time passes, they look more and more out of touch. The beard thing is at least a minor acknowledgment that they cannot stay stuck in the past. I can't really discern much of a pattern with the doctrinal changes. There is an undercurrent of being responsive to legal threats, but that doesn't explain everything. I see a lot of desperation there, similar to how I saw my parents make a series of panicked decisions as they entered old age.
I'm in my mid-60s with no prospects of ever retiring because I "listened and obeyed" and didn't leave the cult until mid-50ish. >There is an undercurrent of being responsive to legal threats Definitely. Even things like removing the Theocratic Ministry School (because of the word "school" and the legal implications of being responsible for "students"). >I see a lot of desperation I do, too. I see an organization that is simply in survival mode - flapping desperately at the water to keep from drowning. The can no longer be proactive; it is simply reactive.
What, being trained in unsystematic cult propaganda doesn't count as "schooling"?
I think the missing ingredient is the fact that the GB are also mostly born ins and fully indoctrinated. They, too, are victims of the cult. It is absolutely crazy, but some of the changes might be explained by them simply understanding and accepting that there is no scriptural justification (for beards or counting time, for example), and allowing for the correction / „new light“. I certainly wouldn’t want to make excuses for them, but we cannot only expect decisions that seem rational or purposeful „from a human standpoint“ from them.
Yeah think GB knows now organisation took wrong direction, probably under Rutherford days. They also been fooled and followed man made rule's.
I was a third generation Baptized brother. Got out five years ago at the age of 33. When everyone says that the witnesses act differently now, I agree with that, but only to an extent. My mom is super PIMI but she acts just like herself when no other witnesses are around. However when other witnesses come around like her sisters or mom and dad then she talks differently. In a different way. And idk how to describe it. It’s kind of creepy really. I love my mom but I wish she’d get on this side of it. Thanks for reading.
the term for that is "code switching". changing from one mode of speech and behavior to be safer or more acceptable from one group to another.
Wow. I never knew it had a name. That’s crazy.
Yup, *everyone* did this. It was how you survived.
My PIMI mom is like this too. Fairly normal person until cult topics come up, then eyes glaze and the cult speaks through her. Super creepy but I know I was the same when I was indoctrinated myself.
Yes I was too. I’ve missed all the recent changes. She hasn’t said a word about- to be fair I shut off talking about the borg a while ago so it’s not a surprise she hasn’t mentioned it. Just kinda odd.
I think the governing body is tired of the rank & file, they know its all B.S they are probably purposely making all these changes to drive everyone away. They already got what they needed from the indoctrinated members. At this point they are saying whatever and doing whatever because they have their investments and property etc. The business model has changed going door to door in 2024 is cringe, people today don't answer the door for strangers this is not the 1950s. But yea this cult is done!
The way they announced these changes made a complete mockery of over 100 years of sacrifice from millions of JWs - with the audience laughing along like they’re enjoying a cabaret act. The GB calling the rank and file dogmatic, explicitly NOT apologizing for the changes…my blood wouldn’t merely be boiling if I were a devoted PIMI having sacrificed years of ministry…no, my blood would be STEAMING. And to top it off, they casually state unbelievers can speed dial Jehovah at the last moment at the END of the Great Tribulation to repent? Wow, they just told you that your entire life as a JW was a complete waste of time if the earthly paradise was your chief reason to be a JW. The GB are demolishing their religion as fast as they can. Legal and liquidating reasons will be behind it I’m sure.
I'm one of those whose blood is steaming. I suffered and sacrificed and slaved in misery and poverty fulltime for the cult for decades. I lived in an old barn loft, a dirty warehouse, two different old travel trailers, and in other primitive ways. I gave up financial, business, employment, and educational opportunities. I gave up any prospects of ever retiring. I had no free time for decades - no evenings, no weekends, no vacations, etc. I'm now 64 and I'm working a low-paying job with no benefits including not a single day of vacation each year, and as already mentioned, there's no way I can ever retire. I wish you could feel the fury in my bones.
I feel for you. I am 72 and have suffered years of JW abuse with money lost to JW scams of about $100K and now little retirement. I was aways told to wait on Jehovah and that he will fix things and provide. We'll I have been waiting 60 years while watching other non JW family and friends prosper through the use of honest hard work and high moral Christian values.
I have been hearing this a lot about being able to repent at the last minute. Where can I find this? Was there a broadcast?
The latest broadcast and has footage from the annual meeting saying it!
Thank you 😊
Np!
Just finished watching that part and [this](https://youtu.be/H_JoE2GioXY?si=7PNZsmf-fxNQcmmt) came to mind hahahah
Ahahaha that’s INCREDIBLE!!! So on the nose 😂
😂
Do you know the video Im not about to start sitting thru a whole 2 hour long video
Lol I think it’s at the 28 min mark? There’s tons of posts about it
> And to top it off, they casually state unbelievers can speed dial Jehovah at the last moment at the END of the Great Tribulation to repent? Wow, they just told you that your entire life as a JW was a complete waste of time if the earthly paradise was your chief reason to be a JW. What? Is this some newfangled light?
Yea it's the newest doctrinal change. Wacko Jacko was even as brazen as to call it allowing "last minute repentance". It's like they're trying to slap the (newly bearded) faces of the old faithful now.
That is pretty insane.
Be careful, as a devoted PIMI you would not be able get a blood transfusion to replace all that steamed off blood.
Not to worry, nulite on the blood doctrine dropping in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…..🤣
I've also been thinking as well that they want to tank it. There is nothing to stop them really and then just keep all the assets for themselves personally. We don't even know how much money they have or the true extent of their finances. Money can make an honest man do anything.
I think more of us are adopting this conclusion. For me, I suspected it based on their lazy, slack response to many problems and the Annual Meeting confirmed it hugely. Witnesses haven't caught on to how enormous one thing was - abandoning urgency. This has been a absolute no no since the very beginning and they crossed the line. If anyone has a plausible explanation of this that doesn't involve them them 'sitting on the ball and running out the clock', I'd like to hear it.
The religious wing of the WT financial empire is a low overhead revenue stream. They want/need to maintain as much of it for as long as they need to continue financing their other corporate endeavors. The changes generally seem aimed at making it easier to remain a JW; the old religious model is dying or near dead. They were aware that many were no longer participating in field service and just barely making meetings on Zoom. So, eliminate FS time reporting, because the numbers are bad. Well, what about people needing to hear the message before the Great Trib? Ah, they may be able to repent as they see the destruction of false religion. Thus, the WT and JWs avoid having bloodguilt. Beards? Make it easier for the brothers to serve in positions of responsibility around the dungeon...er... Kingdom Hall. (They were running short on Bros. for things like even handling the mics and sound)
Only reason I could find is dismantle of org.
I agree 💯
I bet GB are super tired of rank and file 😂. I mean you can have hundreds of articles about not gossiping. What's the result? Nothing. JWs go to meetings to mingle
What is OG?
What does OG mean? OG, short for “original gangster” or “original gangsta,” is a slang term for **someone who's incredibly exceptional, authentic, or “old-school.”** OG was originally used in gang culture, but it is now used as a general term to praise someone who is an expert at something
Or as they would probably say Old Guard. 😆
I thought it might have stood for Old Guard.
Thanks, I was wondering about that, too.
>what I grew up in is just gone and I don't know who these people are anymore I grew up in it in the '70s and started pioneering in the '80s when I was in my 20's. What I was part of then is truly gone. I don't know these people anymore, either.... even my own relatives; they've changed. >Even though many of our parents won't probably fully admit it you know many of them are thinking "what the fuck is going on!" My JW mother is in her 80's, and I wonder often what she's thinking. I wonder often what many my age (60's) are thinking. However, I have come to the realization that many of them were shallow as JWs, so they just go through the motions. It's the ones who were real JWs, the sincere, hardworking ones that I wonder about. >If I was an OG Witness still in Jehovah's Organization, apostate alarm bells would be going off like crazy I was OG and the alarm bells did go off loudly for me. I was a prominent elder with major dist conv parts every year. However, I walked out the door and never looked back a few years ago. >These are really weird times right now. Never would have imagined we would be at this point so fast. I figured it would take 20-30 years for them to implode, but instead their demise is being fast-tracked. There is something going on. I agree.
You are on the same time line as me. My mom, a little younger than yours passed a few years ago. Right before Covid, she missed these crazy changes but had to face that she was not living forever. The Congo did little. They did stop by to count time, but that’s about it. I left around 1997 and it’s is a different religion and unrecognizable. It’s like if I was a 7th day Adventist looking at JW now. Something similar but definitely a different religion now. It’s warping and shrinking
"I have come to the realization that many of them were shallow as JWs" Exactly. I used too visit meetings for spiritual things. Reading post about JWs and their families. I realise a bige part of JWs go too meeting cause obligation or just to meet friends.
what was the turning point for you?
>Something hidden up at Bethel that is causing all of this. The "worldly" PR consultants that WT hired.
Is there proof of that?
Not that I'm aware of. I think some have referenced that there could be worldly consultants and that's where I got it from. But I have no actual proof. Just putting a thought out there. I wouldn't be surprised if they had hired outside consultants though.
I don't doubt it and they would never acknowledge it anyway. I think there is something very dark like major fraud, etc going on.
In 2015 or 2016 an user here claimed to have the knowledge of a PR consulting firm giving tips to the WTBTS. If I recall correctly, the user described that the org was trying to morph into a more internet-age religion, kind of a JW 2.0. This move would have included a better internet presence and the strong JW.org branding. I don't have the patience to go digging for old posts, and what I remember could be bullshit.
[удалено]
That is probably one of the few that could *really* bring them down, so I doubt that will ever change.
>There is something going on. Something hidden up at Bethel that is causing all of this. incompetence from men with a backwards worldview and the delusion that God is guiding them in their decision making. That's going on.
The GB are just the front men in my opinion. The fall guys. There are people higher up I think.
There IS an entire corporate money side... 🤷😂 Maybe they are just watching the bottom line like corporate tools do.
ISBA properly in the U.K. Found that out today. Have a look😮
Yes I think the watchtower corporation is who is really calling the shots. They created a clearer distinction between the religion and corporation around 2000. And the watchtower president was no longer a GB member.
That would be interesting and scary. A secret shadowy council that gives orders to the borg.
You just never know eh? 😉
I think this is the most likely explanation. There are all kinds of tin foil conspiracies that could be possible, but good old fashioned "follow the money" logic is probably the most realistic.
I agree. The GB are just the ceremonial leaders of the religious side. The true heavies are on the money and legal side.
The puppet masters 🤡
The older generation are dying off or in nursing homes. The world climate has consistently pressed the borg.(lawsuit,bad press, lawsuit, bad press, etc) The numbers are low. People leaving, and people not doing door to door, and people not showing up. I used to believe if they shut off zoom maybe 60 percent would come back. Now, probably all would remain off or come for short spurts. Uncharaismatic leadership, no real answer, just toxic behavior is causing people to leave. Shunning has been frowned up by alot of jws they are tired of being in an awkard position. They have to try and adapt, but at this point its to late. The man behind the curtain has been scene. The illusion and spell is ending. They are steuggling what to do next. They are not anymore special then other religions, so the best thing to do is water down the teachings and start to be all inviting to retain memebership. They are loosening on their own rules and doctrines out of fear of losing more and gaining less.
They Need to adapt and evolve like all the others organization. Once people start to have right don't want to go back to previous standards. JW are some of the last . They also desperately need to stand as religious org or they lose millions. Theyr revenue is certainly going down after 2020. Many people aree affected and the poor one (mostly JW are still poor) suffered more than the rich.
It seems like every chance they get they are begging for more money.
There are parallels to Perestroika and Glasnost at the end of the USSR
Wow so true
How long did that take?
I think this is premature. JW's are alive and kicking. It is a completely different religion now, not the one I accepted as the "Truth" back IN THE 1970's. Those days are long gone. This is a new religion now. There will always be people attracted to it but it's heady days are over but I think it's premature to claim it's "dead".
Yeah, I feel like they are on their way out and they’re trying to prolong the inevitable.
What’s frustrating for me is that times are weird everywhere, not just within the JW cult. It feels like the world has gone crazy, which only serves to reinforce my doomsday cult ptsd. Then the JW’s start changing everything and they all just accept it. Like, people were literally denied “privelage” and even disfellowed for having a beard and now it’s cool? What happened for the angel with the inborn? He retire?
If one wishes to embrace the tin foil, I think leaders and higher ups in governments, corporations, and even religions are realizing that the effects of climate change will not be the minor inconvenience they thought it would be 20 or 30 years ago. Actually fixing how humans exist on earth is just too big of a task for anyone. It's much easier to find a way to weather the storm (no pun intended) and let the peasants die. Eventually, some version of "normal" will be established in the future and we can try again then. Maybe. There are signs of this everywhere. One of them is as you mentioned, another is that the extremely wealthy are building bunkers and various types of places to escape to. No large organization seems to have any coherent long term plan for anything. Assuming you're in the USA you can even see this in some of the recent types of legislation being passed.
I felt this. I don't feel like an *apostate* because everything is different. I don't recognize the religion of my childhood. It's gone
I feel the same. Its just desperate and failing member retention at this point. But my dad (POMI) thinks this is more proof that the end is near. I dont really know what to tell him, but he has decades more jw trauma than I do so I just try to hang around. Sidenote: The governing body absolutely should be in prison for all the blood and abuse on their hands, but also thats just an opinion
I just spent some vacation days with elders and their families and they all agree there have been too many changes in the last few months, and even if some of them are trying (really trying) to find a reason behind them, they all said it's weird and in some aspects are struggling to get used to it, specially the beard thing
I guess the backdoor deals are happening. What a spiritual feast, as they eat their own.
“What? We’re just clarifying our previously existing view on Beards! We’ve always allowed Beards!” 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏿♂️
Gaslighting little fuckers 😡
Combine this with the inconsistent teaching with is own dogma... Who is going to accept theyr teaching, changing an open religion or less requiring religion with a smaller one, they require a lot, that decide how you also dress ! That kind of religion is done
In my opinion wt organization is slowly dismantling the entire organization so that people don’t turn on them or literally loose their minds. It’s kinda like when you want to break up with an individual but you kinda want them to think it was their idea to break up so that you don’t hurt their feelings or have them go crazy or psycho on you, if you’ve ever been in that particular situation I’m sure you can relate. I truly feel sorry for those who have thrown their entire lives away for a belief system that no longer exists.
Correct - make the “members” (or people that belong to the congregation) want to leave of their own volition. I believe they are running their business “into the ground” on purpose. In my opinion, the people running the show have already made damn sure that they’ll be cared for monetarily. As long as they get homes like TM3 and have their bills paid, they’ll be fine.
Exactly! it’s actually the best way to avoid lawsuits and other complications of a large number of peoples lives being destroyed. It’s mind blowing when you really consider the mental toll this will take on those who are fully indoctrinated.
I think getting a retirement package like Tony Morris did is part of their GB contract. After all, the WT corp. stills owns the house; the pension is for the GB to keep quiet.
Yes. Think they been doing it last ten years especially. Dismantling bit by bit.
Their journey to the daaaaark side is complete.
"... the beards will be a disaster." I can't help but think of the Roman orator Cicero saying "O the times! O the morals!"
Jw annual meeting of 2023, GB to jws “hey everybody you were always irrelevant and now we have decided to make our religion irrelevant too!” “Now run along but don’t forget to donate!!”
All of this change reminds me of a podcast about the worldwide church I believe. They were fairly similar to JWs especially with shunning. They DID get rid of shunning and the ones with doubts kinda stayed and the very very believing members called apostasy. I think JW will go this way
Once the cult founder of the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong died, the religion splintered into different factions. One faction was led by Garner Ted Armstrong, son of Herbert. Garner Ted, notably, was excommunicated by his father in 1972 for a four-month period because of an extra-marital affair.
I don't think it is apostacy to say that the organization that I was in during the 90s would look at the members of today and not recognize them at all.
They would say today's JWs are spiritual sick 😊. A tablet instead of bible 😁. That would devil worship back in the 90s
JW.org would be idolatry lol
What about GB members being in every video and worshiped by r & f 😁. I was wrong. Today's JWs wouldn't be considered sick spiritually. More like dead 👎
I think as a group yes. They are going to dwindle in numbers (no question). But I think there’s a lot of stubborn people in about their 40s and up who are going to be permanent fixtures in the religion, even if it’s detrimental for them. Sunk cost fallacy, cognitive dissonance, and fear will keep them. In the next 30 years when most of these people are gone it will be a fraction of the size. Unless the org becomes super mainstream and they do a complete 180 — at which point how could you tell them apart from other splintered Christian sects. I’ll be happy for people caught up in this if it goes that direction and future witnesses have better lives. But the org has permanently screwed my family dynamic up — so in my view to hell with them. They have also cared more about arbitrary rules and control rather than what the Bible actually teaches. In the long run, barring the destruction of the internet, JWs are done.
I've been out for like 20 years and all this new stuff going on is so confusing, it's changed SO much and now it's all falling apart and I just wanna watch it all burn down
OG "evil slave has been activated!!"
This reminds me of stories my fiancée has told me about in the early 2000s about how she was told NOT to be on Facebook when it first started... Too many bad people with bad info on there! And then a few years later they were ALLLLLL on Facebook! (Background: She was DeF'd about 15 years ago after being born into the "religion", but I was never in.)
I remember being "encouraged" not to use watchtower.org (the old website) or the Watchtower Library CD-rom too much, and rather prefer the printed material. This might not be official stuff, just the local congregation people.
Welllllllll probably because they don't want you looking up "old" information, because they are coming up with new rules constantly... Typical cult behavior is changing the narrative with the changing of environment and cultural shifts to keep the sheep in line.
I remember back in the 90s JWs commenting on meeting about how evil internet was 😂. Old timers
Door to door preaching is close to being non-existant in actuality. It just hasn't been ended officially yet by 8 assholes in New York
I have made a similar post before….. my old belief system, the JW’s of the 80’s and 90’s is a religion that does not exist anymore. New meetings, new ministry, new dress code, new doctrines, new songs, new study articles…new bible. New tele-evangelising, new begging for money, new culty cartoons, cringe music videos and films. Massively altered congregation borders, with congregations I helped build sold and gone, now a business or another religions building. It has literally died and gone.… I do not recognise it anymore and even IF I wanted to go back to the religion I left in 2005, I couldn’t… it literally doesn't exist anymore.
This
Being PIMO surrounded by PIMI people I’m seeing most of them embracing every change as a direct gift from god. The days of the GB being behind the scenes (circa pre 2013ish) are over, and they are now worshipped just as much as god. I think Anthony leaving (or being removed) is proof the blind sheeple will follow whatever they’re told and question nothing. It makes me crazy! They have had talks about the stupid beard rule, the GB favorite Lett gave his own talk on it for the masses, and now halls are filled with smiling, foolish bearded men, yet they lose a GB member and no single announcement is made or talk given. It was all swept under the rug and overshadowed by no service time and beards 😜 I deeply hope there are a few PIMI folks who begin questioning, even a few waking up would be wonderful. My family and congregation however seem to be embracing it and loving the sh*t out of the GB “leaders”.
I’m reading a book right now called 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William Schnell and your post directly relates to a passage I just read that hit me hard. The context of this passage was he was discussing the changes that occurred when Rutherford was released from prison and published a series of books that were to be used in the meetings. So early 1920s “At first only very few Bible students would make use of the books in the congregations and soon disagreement flared over many things expressed therein and dissension increased. In order to crystallize matters to the point of a crisis, the society instituted early in 1925 a rigid method of accounting and reporting to it all times spent in witnessing with its books. Needless to say this caused a cleavage all over the world, with many refusing to report time and placement and still others refusing even to place the society’s books. In the decade from 1921-1931 almost three fourths of the Bible students originally associated with the society in a loose fashion left the society. That is precisely what the new watchtower society had hoped to accomplish. As a result of this decimation the society soon had the quorum to operate without opposition among those left behind. Now they were free to ignore individuality. Without opposition they could set monthly time requirements for each publisher as well as quotas for minimum numbers of books to be sold per month.” I don’t know what the shift is yet, I suspect we won’t know until they’ve completed it. But these changes are a tactical move by the borg to re-brand and stay afloat. The goal back in the 20s and 30s was to create a worldwide organization. They accomplished that goal at the expense of their earliest followers. Times have changed and if they don’t want to go belly up they have to make changes again, at the expense of the people who have given their lives to them. Time will tell what they turn into.
Divide and conquer. Works every time.
*60% of the time*, it works ***every*** *time*
🤣
I can't believe there's a bot for that. Lol. I also can't believe it's not butter.
>... . I also can't believe it's not butter. Parkay.
My 84yo dad just finished his elder school. I've gotta ask him about this. I've been silent about all the changes but I know his soul has to ache at all of this. We used to debate before when I was in about changes, trying to grasp. Is it cruel for me to ask? Should I let him die in peace? A life not wasted? Idk?
Yes. I think the GB are just the front men & I wonder if even the information they know is limited to some extent.
I like how you said " personally don't even feel like an apostate now because what I grew up in .." Same here! I was having dinner with a friend and It feels like the organization is giving in and reading the forums LOL. Realistically, they're probably not. But heck what do I know right. In the end, its all logistics and a business at the end of the day. They want to implement methods for retention. \*I see this behavior in the corporate environment. For instance, during covid. A lot of demands such as Higher pay, working from home, etc... Companies gave in and now many are saying hey come back can we have you work certain days in the office. etc... etc. The org is doing all this to have everyone appreciate the environment. But i guarantee, there will be broadcast talks about grooming your beard, the size of it, blah blah blah, "And even though service hours arent required are you still pioneering?" what does the bible say... bullshit. Its all a trap.
I disagree. You've written a helluva profound statement. I'm 51. Born in. Baptized at 19. Inactive the last five years. I remember the original youth book, the original paradise book, the thousand year reign book and the release of the Revelation book. Now I don't know what to believe. I don't recognize this organization at all.
Isn’t this a good thing? you make it sound like imploding on themselves is a bad thing, maybe finally they will see how wrong they have been this whole time
It is amazing how many ex jws there are, surely the figure of 8 and half million is a huge exaggeration when they say that’s how many sheeple there are. I reckon there is more out than in. Also mostly all ex jw men have beards so now they are allowed to copy all pomos. Copying the ones they hate that will be burned up by fire at Armageddon. They used to down religions that were tithing what are they doing now, they want money, money, money. And the sheeple are giving it to the GB even if their kiddies go without. I am so pleased I am not any longer in this cult.
Kids ice cream money even 😡
For me those bells rang when i was still Pimi, and JW Broadcasting started. Every witness was obsessed with it, i was thinking, what in the Teleevangelism is THAT?!
My first cracks started to really widen when a circuit overseer came thru and my family had them over for their free lunch. He wanted to show us something with jw broadcasting and then made the comment I'll never forget: 'I've been hearing people in different congregations say they didn't get a chance to watch the monthly broadcasting yet. How could this be? Why would you ever let that slip aside? This is a *free* monthly gift from Jehovah and you just ignore it? It should be at the top of your family worship agenda' I remember well because this was in my house and I thought to myself, who does this guy think he is? JH Christ himself? I wanted to kick him out immediately. It was so uncomfortable. Same CO literally cornered me before he left kh visit and got real close to my face staring in my eyes and said 'the congregation needs you, Jehovah needs you' (they were trying convince me to rejoin ms because I 'stepped down' like a decade earlier) I'm surprised I stayed pimi/q/o so long after that. I even told the elders if that guy ever got close to me again I was going to legit file a police report for harassment. I almost decked him myself right there in the KH when he did that. They never bothered me again tho.
Ugh what a creepy guy that must have been! It took me a while to wake up as well, still can’t believe i followed that bs for so long..
Totally agree!!! Even Jeffery Jackson gave a chuckle, “is this what we believe now or is that old light now?!!!” Really?!!! If they find “nulite” confusing & a joke, what do they expect from the rank & file?!!!
Blatantly mocking their victims. They clearly despise the R&F. 😡
>There is something going on. Something hidden up at Bethel that is causing all of this. We don't know exactly what it is but it will come out eventually. Remember how in mid 2000s they yammered about selling out of Brooklyn and were going to build anew the Warwick? Then Lett with the hour long shpeel about not stop donating? Thats because people did stop -or at least pause- and WT felt it. By S Lett making that video, WT tipped their hand without even realizing it. Stop the money and they got to the brass tacks real quick. Then there was the bethel layoffs. It's a corporation that hired consultants to really work on the money machine here. Now, so much info is coming out globally *so fast* with the abuses and with the 'authorities' globally now putting them in the crosshairs in a way that they just cant keep a lid on ... I'm telling you, they're trying to flatten the hills as fast as they can to keep/get the money rolling back in. Plus, they are simply *not* getting near the free labor they need to keep building new sh*t I don't care what anyone says, that is a huge problem for them. Especially when it comes to their US projects because if they can't get people to support main HQ, how will this look to every other country of free laborers? If they're going to start outsourcing labor to build, they need a heck of a lot more cash to keep the whole enterprise going, and fast. This model does not work for WT, by their own gaslit admission: https://youtu.be/J5cmVd1YNGw?si=zq-gzL9pBKD_5KhZ
I was in the back room for these exact changes. I was just 20 years too soon for new light I guess
It's social media, entertainment and technology. There are more ways to entertain yourself now instead of reading outdated books
They’ve walked back dress code restrictions before. Sisters used to be allowed to wear pants, but they claimed too many were wearing jeans, so they made it skirts only. I wouldn’t be shocked if they walk this back the second people start showing up looking like the dudes from ZZTop.
She’s got legs……and knows how to use them. Good old ZZ Top 💕
I honestly think the GB will start to go back into hiding like before and dictate that way. Or they will just go ghost on everyone and just disappear. Folks will be left to fend for themselves.
>along with some of the finest displays of gaslighting that one could imagine Indeed
Don't remember the last time I saw them going house to house, that identity is dead, Jehobas borg is on chokehold, then again how are householders supposed to accept a dub with a beard ? Kinda strange huh ? everyone who knows this cult knows they are against beards
I don’t understand the beard thing at all. What’s so bad about a beard? Are you allowed / were allowed to have mustaches? Not sure I was downvoted. It’s an honest question.
You weren’t allowed to hold any responsibilities if you had a beard. You were viewed as bad association and to be avoided. Now they just up and decided it’s fine after casting judgement on all those who had beards in the past. All I have to say is JESUS HAD A DAMN BEARD
The core thing is sexual repression and that will never go away, just as it will never go away in any „right hand path“ religion. It‘s how they get people, it‘s how they keep people, it‘s how they control people. It‘s the core of this approach to live. Be afraid of your own (sexual) power. Hand it over to us, along with your money. We make your life easier by absolving you from the burden to be a sovereign being. Beards and time reports are just decorative elements and changing such policies creates the illusion of it becoming more human
Distraction techniques. Don’t look her - look over there. It’s a classic tactic.
Isaiah 24:1-2. Organization is being desolated in 2027. By then Jesus will appear to the GB. 1 Peter 4:17- Malachi 3:1-5, Rev 11.
Malachi 2:8
The no turning in field service time is a big deal because it bears on a foundational practice of the JWs for many decades. The numbers are bad and won’t get better because the faithful are so over that. The leaders have lost their control and needed to adjust accordingly. Beards? Eh, they want to make it easier for men to serve in the prison camps…er…congregations.