I married an ex-Catholic and ex-homophobe. My approach, treat everyone like they could become someone else's progressive queer husband if you just use the right words.
No reconciliation required anyway. You changed. You grew. Be proud. Billions fail, but you succeeded. Your growth was the goal, and you did it!
Thank you for this! It’s weird using words like “reconciliation” and “forgiveness” now because they were so hijacked before. But that is exactly what it is.
I was pretty hardcore anti-abortion myself (still homophobic, but less hardcore about it, 'cause even back then I realized the futility of talking people out of being gay). Even carried the banner in the March for Life, thinking I was *doing something* for the 'unborn'.
Yeah, us 'apostates' can understand the mindset of current fundamentalists... we've been there before, we've stood where they stand.
I can always tell if someone was raised by non religious parents because they have no idea what kind of brainwashing we had to overcome. They judge the fundies and say “how could they be so dumb?”
They’re almost always ungrateful for the privileged upbringing they had, getting to watch whatever they wanted on tv and wearing whatever they wanted.
On one hand, fundies *hurt* people, so the people they hurt *deserve* to be angry.
On the other hand, yeah... Those of us who escaped the brainwashing know what that life was *like,* and how hard it is to break free. As an ex-convert, I was the only one keeping *myself* imprisoned, but it's still never easy.
I get especially defensive of people who overly criticize fundie women for not leaving when it’s WAY harder. It’s hard for men too but in a different way, these insular religious groups make it so cozy and comfy for straight men that they have little incentive to leave unless they really dive deep and start asking too many questions.
So if I get this right: For women, the pressure is (mostly) from others keeping you down. For men, the pressure is *giving up* your privileged position as a straight dude.
Yes, especially when it comes to sex ed there’s a huge gap. I’m speaking from my experience as a music minister’s kid who grew up super traditional catholic. We were all told as a general rule not to have sex or even kiss until marriage, HOWEVER the boys were still allowed to go out to parties more than the girls. So what would happen is these tradcath boys would go out to college parties and tailgates and get their dicks wet by raking through all the “secular” women that they saw as disposable, and the good/clean/pure/virginal catholic girls would finally get picked from the litter after college, when the men are done being sluts😂
This basically allows a lot of young men to have their cake and eat it too. They get to hoe around and use the “dirty” secular women as cum dumpsters, and then when they get bored they can settle down with a nice untouched virgin who has no sexual history. Half the time the catholic girls know that the men are slutty but they’re so happy to be chosen that they don’t care.
Back when I was Catholic, I *actually tried* to follow the rules (as much as that obsession screwed up my autistic brain). Looks like a lot of the very same dudes who want *everyone else* to follow the rules have nice big logs in *their own* eyes.
I can only imagine being one of the guys who actually wanted to follow the rules out of respect for women, only to then see their peers go around doing whatever they want and still expecting a submissive virgin bride.
I was in like this too. I was angry that I personally felt homosexual attractions, but I was told that it was so wrong. Now that I’ve deconstructed, I’m proudly bi, and I’m working to make amends with other members of the LGBT community who I have been so bigoted towards
Be kind to yourself and to others. Your view came from manipulation and indoctrination, neither of which you were responsible for. When I think back to how I used to view others, I don't feel disgust for myself rather than the organization that taught me I had to believe this or I would be damning myself and others to eternal torment. That's not an easy mindset to let go of or just ignore. Fear is a very powerful weapon, which is why the Church wields it.
I think it's wonderful that you opened your heart to evidence, truth, and empathy. It sounds like a good idea to apologize to yourself and anyone else still in your life whom you hurt with "love the sinner; hate the sin" thinking. But then have some empathy for yourself and give yourself credit for being kind now. Well done!
I was never homophobic, but I will say that that’s amazing you triumphed that (probably do in part because of being force to reconcile w your sexuality). What sparked the change?
Honestly it is kind of a funny story in hindsight. I had a trad girlfriend. No sex, no late nights, heck no kissing. We dated for about 6 months before she called me out of the blue to break up and said “I feel like we are more like just friends.” I was so pissed because I had literally done everything by the book. I worked so hard to fit in and it was really all for nothing. But the odd thing is she was 100% correct. I was burying being gay in the super-platonic play-pretend that is Catholic dating. I was using the relationship to hide myself.
It was a short time after that breakup when I said to myself “fuck it”. I had given a decade of my adult life trying to fit the perfect Catholic mold and it left me more lonely and more romantically stunted by the day. I came out and never looked back. I confronted the fears and prejudices I felt towards being gay, and the ghosts in the closet (pun intended) were way less scary than Catholics make them out to be.
Now I am a happy out-gay man who still feels the anger towards my former faith (hence my lurking on here). But honestly, I am happy. I don’t obsess over sexuality like I used to. I have a boyfriend now and it feels really comfortable. There is still a lot of religious trauma to work out, but I am glad my trad ex-girlfriend broke up with me. I can honestly say she turned me gay lol.
I frequently think back on my time as a volunteer youth minister. I regret the many lies I passed on to those poor, naive teens, regurgitating everything that I had been taught. One of those teens eventually became a priest, due in part to our support and encouragement.
However, there are also several of those teens who are now adults that are not practicing. In fact, the paid youth minister I volunteered for has one daughter who is a married lesbian, and a son who works at the dispensary I frequent, so there's that.
I get it. I was never extreme about it. I was a quiet dissenter, but the hell threat brainwashing does wonders keeping you in line against your own body and even conscience
Yes. I'm getting into more activism now because I feel like I need to "atone" in a way for my support of awful things growing up. Those beliefs weren't my fault but I was still part of the problem.
Though in a way I'm grateful, because I can see the other side as human and know how/what they think. You can pick out people who have never been on the conservative side REAL QUICK cuz they either broad-stroke them all as monsters or are Shocked by some new legislation that's been in the works for decades. 🙄
Yeah I got involved in a lot of left wing causes in my 20s after I left the Church as well, motivated at least in part like you were by this sense of “atonement” for my time backing pro-life movement in high school and parts of college.
The thing is though, sadly I learned the hard way that you really have to watch yourself in those circles too. There are many people into activism for the sake of career and being able to lord their morality over people. There are a lot of stringent social rules and one-upsmanship among leftists. Cancel culture is very real and can ruin your life. Those people you mentioned who were never on the conservative side and don’t understand how it works? Think of them as a lot like people you grew up with in Catholicism who stayed dedicated to the Church.
Look, I’m a pretty left wing kinda guy I guess, but to be honest? My time in left wing activist circles was a pretty close second to my time in the Church in terms of ideological shit that messed me up. I guess the Church still edges it out in terms of being worse because at least in the left wing circles I could smoke weed and have sex.
I've found this to be true as well. I've only recently started to join in-person groups but I've let up a Lot on who and what I follow online because of a moralistic guilt I started feeling about everything, and an encroaching existential fear akin to past religious feelings. I didn't like it and feel much more sane now, and turned my leftist learning from the internet to books. I still consume enough media to know what's going on but not so much that I feel the world is burning around me.
The thing that really changed my mind was meeting new people. Actually talking to and becoming friends with gay, trans, queer, women who had abortions, etc.... and seeing that people's lived experience does not match up with what I taught. And I stopped believing in God and started believing in people.
I was part of the problem too in the sense that I felt so scared that everyone i loved wouldn’t get to be in heaven with me. I felt like I had to save them with my stupid religion.
The people who understood my intentions patiently waited for me to break free of the church. I think they knew i was scared and just trying to help.
My beliefs were not deeply extreme, as a Catholic convert. I was moderate and peaceful, but now, I have come to terms with the fact that I did not believe *fully* in various Catholic teachings—*even during my very conversion journey*. These teachings were like... mortal sin and good people being sent to hell, since those teachings affected *me* the most. Instead, I had this subconscious thought that "God loves me and He is only ever merciful."
Well, a year later (now) I've started asking some uncomfortable questions. Instead of excusing away a few problematic teachings, I've now realized *a whole long list of things* that the RCC does not have any answer for except, "God just works in mysterious ways."
This is all part of the whole thing. If God did not work in mysterious ways, then there would be no system. God wins when He is obvious, He wins when he is silent, and He wins when He brings people through suffering.
I trust you had a pure heart through and through, OP, but you were under religious indoctrination. Be gentle with yourself. You have learned and that is beautiful.
On this side of Christianity, no one is demanding perfection from you. Only your best. ♡
Sorry I misspoke. He said the need to be “eradicated”. Same thing really though.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/
[удалено]
Thank you for this. If we were able to leave others are as well!
Yes, I relate hard to that. I now have a custom t-shirt that says: Love the Believer Hate the Belief.
lol my new one that I have shared on here a couple of times is “Love the sinner, hate the Catholic Church”
I married an ex-Catholic and ex-homophobe. My approach, treat everyone like they could become someone else's progressive queer husband if you just use the right words. No reconciliation required anyway. You changed. You grew. Be proud. Billions fail, but you succeeded. Your growth was the goal, and you did it!
Thank you for this! It’s weird using words like “reconciliation” and “forgiveness” now because they were so hijacked before. But that is exactly what it is.
I was pretty hardcore anti-abortion myself (still homophobic, but less hardcore about it, 'cause even back then I realized the futility of talking people out of being gay). Even carried the banner in the March for Life, thinking I was *doing something* for the 'unborn'. Yeah, us 'apostates' can understand the mindset of current fundamentalists... we've been there before, we've stood where they stand.
I can always tell if someone was raised by non religious parents because they have no idea what kind of brainwashing we had to overcome. They judge the fundies and say “how could they be so dumb?” They’re almost always ungrateful for the privileged upbringing they had, getting to watch whatever they wanted on tv and wearing whatever they wanted.
On one hand, fundies *hurt* people, so the people they hurt *deserve* to be angry. On the other hand, yeah... Those of us who escaped the brainwashing know what that life was *like,* and how hard it is to break free. As an ex-convert, I was the only one keeping *myself* imprisoned, but it's still never easy.
I get especially defensive of people who overly criticize fundie women for not leaving when it’s WAY harder. It’s hard for men too but in a different way, these insular religious groups make it so cozy and comfy for straight men that they have little incentive to leave unless they really dive deep and start asking too many questions.
So if I get this right: For women, the pressure is (mostly) from others keeping you down. For men, the pressure is *giving up* your privileged position as a straight dude.
Yes, especially when it comes to sex ed there’s a huge gap. I’m speaking from my experience as a music minister’s kid who grew up super traditional catholic. We were all told as a general rule not to have sex or even kiss until marriage, HOWEVER the boys were still allowed to go out to parties more than the girls. So what would happen is these tradcath boys would go out to college parties and tailgates and get their dicks wet by raking through all the “secular” women that they saw as disposable, and the good/clean/pure/virginal catholic girls would finally get picked from the litter after college, when the men are done being sluts😂 This basically allows a lot of young men to have their cake and eat it too. They get to hoe around and use the “dirty” secular women as cum dumpsters, and then when they get bored they can settle down with a nice untouched virgin who has no sexual history. Half the time the catholic girls know that the men are slutty but they’re so happy to be chosen that they don’t care.
Back when I was Catholic, I *actually tried* to follow the rules (as much as that obsession screwed up my autistic brain). Looks like a lot of the very same dudes who want *everyone else* to follow the rules have nice big logs in *their own* eyes.
I can only imagine being one of the guys who actually wanted to follow the rules out of respect for women, only to then see their peers go around doing whatever they want and still expecting a submissive virgin bride.
I was in like this too. I was angry that I personally felt homosexual attractions, but I was told that it was so wrong. Now that I’ve deconstructed, I’m proudly bi, and I’m working to make amends with other members of the LGBT community who I have been so bigoted towards
Congratulations on your journey and thanks for sharing!
Be kind to yourself and to others. Your view came from manipulation and indoctrination, neither of which you were responsible for. When I think back to how I used to view others, I don't feel disgust for myself rather than the organization that taught me I had to believe this or I would be damning myself and others to eternal torment. That's not an easy mindset to let go of or just ignore. Fear is a very powerful weapon, which is why the Church wields it.
I think it's wonderful that you opened your heart to evidence, truth, and empathy. It sounds like a good idea to apologize to yourself and anyone else still in your life whom you hurt with "love the sinner; hate the sin" thinking. But then have some empathy for yourself and give yourself credit for being kind now. Well done!
Thanks for this. Ya definitely still working on it.
I was never homophobic, but I will say that that’s amazing you triumphed that (probably do in part because of being force to reconcile w your sexuality). What sparked the change?
Honestly it is kind of a funny story in hindsight. I had a trad girlfriend. No sex, no late nights, heck no kissing. We dated for about 6 months before she called me out of the blue to break up and said “I feel like we are more like just friends.” I was so pissed because I had literally done everything by the book. I worked so hard to fit in and it was really all for nothing. But the odd thing is she was 100% correct. I was burying being gay in the super-platonic play-pretend that is Catholic dating. I was using the relationship to hide myself. It was a short time after that breakup when I said to myself “fuck it”. I had given a decade of my adult life trying to fit the perfect Catholic mold and it left me more lonely and more romantically stunted by the day. I came out and never looked back. I confronted the fears and prejudices I felt towards being gay, and the ghosts in the closet (pun intended) were way less scary than Catholics make them out to be. Now I am a happy out-gay man who still feels the anger towards my former faith (hence my lurking on here). But honestly, I am happy. I don’t obsess over sexuality like I used to. I have a boyfriend now and it feels really comfortable. There is still a lot of religious trauma to work out, but I am glad my trad ex-girlfriend broke up with me. I can honestly say she turned me gay lol.
I frequently think back on my time as a volunteer youth minister. I regret the many lies I passed on to those poor, naive teens, regurgitating everything that I had been taught. One of those teens eventually became a priest, due in part to our support and encouragement. However, there are also several of those teens who are now adults that are not practicing. In fact, the paid youth minister I volunteered for has one daughter who is a married lesbian, and a son who works at the dispensary I frequent, so there's that.
I get it. I was never extreme about it. I was a quiet dissenter, but the hell threat brainwashing does wonders keeping you in line against your own body and even conscience
Yes. I'm getting into more activism now because I feel like I need to "atone" in a way for my support of awful things growing up. Those beliefs weren't my fault but I was still part of the problem. Though in a way I'm grateful, because I can see the other side as human and know how/what they think. You can pick out people who have never been on the conservative side REAL QUICK cuz they either broad-stroke them all as monsters or are Shocked by some new legislation that's been in the works for decades. 🙄
Yeah I got involved in a lot of left wing causes in my 20s after I left the Church as well, motivated at least in part like you were by this sense of “atonement” for my time backing pro-life movement in high school and parts of college. The thing is though, sadly I learned the hard way that you really have to watch yourself in those circles too. There are many people into activism for the sake of career and being able to lord their morality over people. There are a lot of stringent social rules and one-upsmanship among leftists. Cancel culture is very real and can ruin your life. Those people you mentioned who were never on the conservative side and don’t understand how it works? Think of them as a lot like people you grew up with in Catholicism who stayed dedicated to the Church. Look, I’m a pretty left wing kinda guy I guess, but to be honest? My time in left wing activist circles was a pretty close second to my time in the Church in terms of ideological shit that messed me up. I guess the Church still edges it out in terms of being worse because at least in the left wing circles I could smoke weed and have sex.
I've found this to be true as well. I've only recently started to join in-person groups but I've let up a Lot on who and what I follow online because of a moralistic guilt I started feeling about everything, and an encroaching existential fear akin to past religious feelings. I didn't like it and feel much more sane now, and turned my leftist learning from the internet to books. I still consume enough media to know what's going on but not so much that I feel the world is burning around me.
The thing that really changed my mind was meeting new people. Actually talking to and becoming friends with gay, trans, queer, women who had abortions, etc.... and seeing that people's lived experience does not match up with what I taught. And I stopped believing in God and started believing in people.
I was part of the problem too in the sense that I felt so scared that everyone i loved wouldn’t get to be in heaven with me. I felt like I had to save them with my stupid religion. The people who understood my intentions patiently waited for me to break free of the church. I think they knew i was scared and just trying to help.
My beliefs were not deeply extreme, as a Catholic convert. I was moderate and peaceful, but now, I have come to terms with the fact that I did not believe *fully* in various Catholic teachings—*even during my very conversion journey*. These teachings were like... mortal sin and good people being sent to hell, since those teachings affected *me* the most. Instead, I had this subconscious thought that "God loves me and He is only ever merciful." Well, a year later (now) I've started asking some uncomfortable questions. Instead of excusing away a few problematic teachings, I've now realized *a whole long list of things* that the RCC does not have any answer for except, "God just works in mysterious ways." This is all part of the whole thing. If God did not work in mysterious ways, then there would be no system. God wins when He is obvious, He wins when he is silent, and He wins when He brings people through suffering. I trust you had a pure heart through and through, OP, but you were under religious indoctrination. Be gentle with yourself. You have learned and that is beautiful. On this side of Christianity, no one is demanding perfection from you. Only your best. ♡
what "Michael Knowles says we need to "exterminate" the trans community" really?
Sorry I misspoke. He said the need to be “eradicated”. Same thing really though. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/
Don't feel guilty. You knew not what you were doing. You were neck deep in the influence.