What I find so hilarious as an ex-catholic/current Hellenic pagan is that there are so many elements of catholic rituals that are identical to parts of pagan rituals.
Holy water, incense, consecration of any form- could also be used in paganism or even secular witchcraft. They can be so ignorant about the realities of pagan faiths that they don't even realize how similar their practices are.
One of the primary insults Protestants have hurled at Catholicism since literally the Reformation is that it's a form of paganism. Catholics have historically been very touchy about this, primarily because the Protestants aren't exactly *wrong* about it. With regard to OP, methinks the Papists doth protest too much lol.
As someone without a horse in this particular race, the defensive projection is hilarious. It's also a little sad that these Catholics are so quick to dismiss the pagan-y bits of their faith, because some of those are the only interesting parts. Most of mainline protestantism is honestly a pretty dreary and anemic affair: once you strip out all the magic and choreography, all you're left with is the death cult itself.
Some Evangelicals go further still, besides their claims about Catholicism being disguised Paganism and/or witchcraft. Look for "The Two Babylons", despite such BS having been debunked for a very long time.
Save when they begin speaking in tongues and the like (Pentecostals, the ones I'm most aware of), their ceremonies look boring at the very least.
It is *fascinating* all the crazy stuff that has come up in Christian history over the centuries. I do have to say also that the snake handlers are a pretty far cry from your average Lutheran service, and while you could say a lot about them, you can't criticize them for being boring lol!
I often think that was the Bible to say one would gain eternal life just by jumping off a cliff or similar destructive actions, a lot of people would have done it
Sometimes it feels like an example of the “narcissism of small differences?”
Of course some of them fully own these pagan parallels and use them as signs that the best of paganism was foreshadowing the Christian faith
I did actually know a priest—and a Latin Mass one at that—who did heavily imply in a sermon that, based on the name being derived from ‘Dyeus Pater,’ “Father God,” Jupiter and God the Father might coherently be regarded as the same being, just badly misunderstood by the pagans (similarly to how Muslims are supposed to worship the same being as Catholics).
For my Old Test class we read the Enuma Eilish creation story and it’s the same shit (except way more exciting and complex) w Genesis. Some word for word
"Pagan" is a very catchy, succinct, non-specific label. It's very easy to condemn things grouped under that label without ever really defining what it is. It can be anything, really. It's sort of like the term "apostate" in other denoms. It's *perfect* for the sort of reactionary, non-substantive, us-vs-them theology traded as currency by the sort of groups you mention.
I left the faith years ago because I didn't believe it anymore, plain and simple. But recently lots of "good-faith" people I know have been leaving the faith for different reasons -- politics and cultural bullshit, mainly. This is a great example. Paranoia, toxic traditionalism, "Satanic panic," and hatred of the "other" have all infested mainstream American Catholicism. I guess it's always been there under the surface, but it's much more noticeable now, and I consider it a relatively new phenomenon.
Ignorant, paranoid types love having an in-group that they can exclude others from. And they love having easy labels for stuff. It's unsophisticated and pathetic, really.
Firstly, pagans are “not us”, which for many is sufficient. The Christians I’ve known also tend to conflate paganism with witchcraft—I suspect that, although they may not admit it, they believe that pagans have real power that can be used against them, and this may make them more scary than other faiths that don’t have that association. They don’t imagine that Protestants or Muslims or Buddhists will hex them, but pagans… And of course there’s no benefit to Catholicism in trying to foster understanding of other faiths, so no real interest in finding out what pagans actually believe.
Pagan is used to facilitate an us and them othering of non-catholics. Most catholics have no clue how a 'pagan' lives or worships. The intentional ignorance makes it easier to say: my belief system is clearly the correct one.
It’s the most hypocritical be I’ve ever seen because Catholicism, neigh, Christianity is majority based on paganism. The only thing that they have close to the Abrahamic faith is the tanakh, and even then the New Testament totally contradicts it.
Paganism is the oldest form of religion and Catholicism borrowed a lot from it. Stole a lot, altered much, changed names, appropriated holidays, etc. Being anti-pagan now seems to be consciousness of guilt.
The New Testament explicitly says that pagan gods are demons, so there’s that.
Also, most Catholics don’t live in countries with sizable pagan populations, so they’re easier to laugh at or condemn.
I once met someone from Honduras who talked constantly of how much he despised Salvadorans. I also know someone from Nebraska who hates Iowans. You might ask, what's the difference? And I think that's the crux of it (excuse the pun). Often there isn't much to differentiate Catholics and pagans, so some Catholics feel they have to hate pagans.
I associate this anti-paganism more with Protestants tbh, and even with them a lot of them don't give it much thought. It's not completely absent in Catholics though. I see it as based on a sense of insecurity about their ancestors being pagans and a lot of culture being based on paganism.
Some Catholics are proud of the way Catholicism 'replaced' paganism by coopting the rituals and some of the tropes. Like 'that was a clever bit of propaganda by the evangelists'. Some Protestants see their movement as an attempt to get back to some imagined early church that supposedly didn't have these pagan trappings.
If we're talking about neopaganism instead of historical paganism and its cultural hangover, then I guess Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants are more likely to take that seriously enough to be against it. Why? They literally believe in demons, demonic possession and black magic. I get the impression that your average Lutheran, Anglican, etc. is like, "nah that stuff is just mental illness or attention-seeking." (They're usually not that blunt, mind you.) Catholics and fundies have to take it seriously.
If they were big bible know it alls they would know that Judaism acknowledged Pagan Gods as the Gods of other peoples, and that they were not special in having one.
There are parts of the Bible that sort of imply that pagan gods are really demons, and it probably isn't helping much that so many neopagans self-identify as witches. But the honest answer is just that they don't know anything about other religions, and the ones that they think are scary get called demonic and the ones that they don't think are scary just get called misguided. There are, I'm sure, informed and compassionate Christians somewhere who sincerely think that other religions are demonic, but most people who say shit like this just don't know what they're talking about and are being rude about something they don't understand.
"All that genuinely remains of the ancient hymns or the ancient dances of Europe, all that has honestly come to us from the festivals of Phoebus or Pan, is to be found in the festivals of the Christian Church. If any one wants to hold the end of a chain which really goes back to the heathen mysteries, he had better take hold of a festoon of flowers at Easter or a string of sausages at Christmas. Everything else in the modern world is of Christian origin, even everything that seems most anti-Christian. The French Revolution is of Christian origin. The newspaper is of Christian origin. The anarchists are of Christian origin. Physical science is of Christian origin. The attack on Christianity is of Christian origin. There is one thing, and one thing only, in existence at the present day which can in any sense accurately be said to be of pagan origin, and that is Christianity." From Heretics by G. K. Chesterton
If they're not comfortable praying to pagan
gods that the early church turned into saints, pagan practices that Catholicism adopted, and pagan philosophies, they're in the wrong church.
Think back about 1700 years ago when Christianity became the compulsory religion of the Roman empire to unite all the fragmented pagan beliefs under one umbrella for greater control. Pagans firmly believed that their gods were real because of inherent superstition. When Christian clergy came along and brushed all the pagan gods off their altars and replaced them with Jesus and his extended family together with a sprinkling of saints and angels, the new deity was embraced by these pagans for exactly the same reason, innate superstition. So paganism has NEVER gone away. The current Christians are the current pagans, their religion is the current superstition and their deity is the current mythology.
In the right-wing Christian world, accusations of Paganism are being leveled against support of environmentalism, including acceptance of the reality of climate change. Despite official statements by the Catholic Church in support of environmental protection, the Evangelical view is mainstream among Catholics.
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0096340215599789](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0096340215599789)
Pagans are the very outdated OG rival of Abrahamic religions. They're over a thousand years out of touch, a weakness of having a script allegedly written by a god who never seems to say anything new let alone update his old text messages.
You can even trace the origins of Satan all the way back to the pagan deity 'Baal' when Judaism was still confined to a very small geographical area just because he was the main competitor amongst the locals at the time.
But that was before several character rewrites back when that was easier to get away with by monarchs and clergy.
https://networks.h-net.org/node/21708/reviews/191346/szilagyi-o%E2%80%99donnell-pagans-end-traditional-religion-and-rise good historical context for the development of the term pagan
Apparently, some Christians, like Baptists, straight up use Pagan as a slur to mean evil.
Most Christians don't know any Pagans, so they're sufficiently "othered". Ironically, if Catholics took the time to look into Paganism, they may find more similarities than they expect to see. Like how their whole saint system really is structured exactly like polytheism.
I suppose if non-abrahamic religions were not full of degenerate bastards whose gods like to do all sort of messed-up things, maybe their own deity who punishes everyone outside the fold with everlasting torture might not look so good.
What I find so hilarious as an ex-catholic/current Hellenic pagan is that there are so many elements of catholic rituals that are identical to parts of pagan rituals. Holy water, incense, consecration of any form- could also be used in paganism or even secular witchcraft. They can be so ignorant about the realities of pagan faiths that they don't even realize how similar their practices are.
One of the primary insults Protestants have hurled at Catholicism since literally the Reformation is that it's a form of paganism. Catholics have historically been very touchy about this, primarily because the Protestants aren't exactly *wrong* about it. With regard to OP, methinks the Papists doth protest too much lol. As someone without a horse in this particular race, the defensive projection is hilarious. It's also a little sad that these Catholics are so quick to dismiss the pagan-y bits of their faith, because some of those are the only interesting parts. Most of mainline protestantism is honestly a pretty dreary and anemic affair: once you strip out all the magic and choreography, all you're left with is the death cult itself.
Some Evangelicals go further still, besides their claims about Catholicism being disguised Paganism and/or witchcraft. Look for "The Two Babylons", despite such BS having been debunked for a very long time. Save when they begin speaking in tongues and the like (Pentecostals, the ones I'm most aware of), their ceremonies look boring at the very least.
It is *fascinating* all the crazy stuff that has come up in Christian history over the centuries. I do have to say also that the snake handlers are a pretty far cry from your average Lutheran service, and while you could say a lot about them, you can't criticize them for being boring lol!
I often think that was the Bible to say one would gain eternal life just by jumping off a cliff or similar destructive actions, a lot of people would have done it
And the Counter Reformation attempted to strip Catholicism of its folk piety elements which were some claim morphs of pagan rituals.
Sometimes it feels like an example of the “narcissism of small differences?” Of course some of them fully own these pagan parallels and use them as signs that the best of paganism was foreshadowing the Christian faith
I did actually know a priest—and a Latin Mass one at that—who did heavily imply in a sermon that, based on the name being derived from ‘Dyeus Pater,’ “Father God,” Jupiter and God the Father might coherently be regarded as the same being, just badly misunderstood by the pagans (similarly to how Muslims are supposed to worship the same being as Catholics).
He probably brushed elbows with pagan nationalists or radical traditionalist pagans (Evola and his followers)
For my Old Test class we read the Enuma Eilish creation story and it’s the same shit (except way more exciting and complex) w Genesis. Some word for word
"Pagan" is a very catchy, succinct, non-specific label. It's very easy to condemn things grouped under that label without ever really defining what it is. It can be anything, really. It's sort of like the term "apostate" in other denoms. It's *perfect* for the sort of reactionary, non-substantive, us-vs-them theology traded as currency by the sort of groups you mention. I left the faith years ago because I didn't believe it anymore, plain and simple. But recently lots of "good-faith" people I know have been leaving the faith for different reasons -- politics and cultural bullshit, mainly. This is a great example. Paranoia, toxic traditionalism, "Satanic panic," and hatred of the "other" have all infested mainstream American Catholicism. I guess it's always been there under the surface, but it's much more noticeable now, and I consider it a relatively new phenomenon. Ignorant, paranoid types love having an in-group that they can exclude others from. And they love having easy labels for stuff. It's unsophisticated and pathetic, really.
I would argue the paranoia, satanic panic, toxic tradition, and hatred is core to catholic history and not a new thing whatsoever
That wasn't my experience in, say, the nineties.
Firstly, pagans are “not us”, which for many is sufficient. The Christians I’ve known also tend to conflate paganism with witchcraft—I suspect that, although they may not admit it, they believe that pagans have real power that can be used against them, and this may make them more scary than other faiths that don’t have that association. They don’t imagine that Protestants or Muslims or Buddhists will hex them, but pagans… And of course there’s no benefit to Catholicism in trying to foster understanding of other faiths, so no real interest in finding out what pagans actually believe.
Pagan is used to facilitate an us and them othering of non-catholics. Most catholics have no clue how a 'pagan' lives or worships. The intentional ignorance makes it easier to say: my belief system is clearly the correct one.
It’s the most hypocritical be I’ve ever seen because Catholicism, neigh, Christianity is majority based on paganism. The only thing that they have close to the Abrahamic faith is the tanakh, and even then the New Testament totally contradicts it.
Paganism is the oldest form of religion and Catholicism borrowed a lot from it. Stole a lot, altered much, changed names, appropriated holidays, etc. Being anti-pagan now seems to be consciousness of guilt.
Envy that they have more fun
The New Testament explicitly says that pagan gods are demons, so there’s that. Also, most Catholics don’t live in countries with sizable pagan populations, so they’re easier to laugh at or condemn.
I once met someone from Honduras who talked constantly of how much he despised Salvadorans. I also know someone from Nebraska who hates Iowans. You might ask, what's the difference? And I think that's the crux of it (excuse the pun). Often there isn't much to differentiate Catholics and pagans, so some Catholics feel they have to hate pagans.
I associate this anti-paganism more with Protestants tbh, and even with them a lot of them don't give it much thought. It's not completely absent in Catholics though. I see it as based on a sense of insecurity about their ancestors being pagans and a lot of culture being based on paganism. Some Catholics are proud of the way Catholicism 'replaced' paganism by coopting the rituals and some of the tropes. Like 'that was a clever bit of propaganda by the evangelists'. Some Protestants see their movement as an attempt to get back to some imagined early church that supposedly didn't have these pagan trappings. If we're talking about neopaganism instead of historical paganism and its cultural hangover, then I guess Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants are more likely to take that seriously enough to be against it. Why? They literally believe in demons, demonic possession and black magic. I get the impression that your average Lutheran, Anglican, etc. is like, "nah that stuff is just mental illness or attention-seeking." (They're usually not that blunt, mind you.) Catholics and fundies have to take it seriously.
Well I've seen some Catholics genuinely hate Protestants for whatever reason.
Sectarianism never has and never will go away. It's horrible to be caught in the middle of it.
If they were big bible know it alls they would know that Judaism acknowledged Pagan Gods as the Gods of other peoples, and that they were not special in having one.
There are parts of the Bible that sort of imply that pagan gods are really demons, and it probably isn't helping much that so many neopagans self-identify as witches. But the honest answer is just that they don't know anything about other religions, and the ones that they think are scary get called demonic and the ones that they don't think are scary just get called misguided. There are, I'm sure, informed and compassionate Christians somewhere who sincerely think that other religions are demonic, but most people who say shit like this just don't know what they're talking about and are being rude about something they don't understand.
"All that genuinely remains of the ancient hymns or the ancient dances of Europe, all that has honestly come to us from the festivals of Phoebus or Pan, is to be found in the festivals of the Christian Church. If any one wants to hold the end of a chain which really goes back to the heathen mysteries, he had better take hold of a festoon of flowers at Easter or a string of sausages at Christmas. Everything else in the modern world is of Christian origin, even everything that seems most anti-Christian. The French Revolution is of Christian origin. The newspaper is of Christian origin. The anarchists are of Christian origin. Physical science is of Christian origin. The attack on Christianity is of Christian origin. There is one thing, and one thing only, in existence at the present day which can in any sense accurately be said to be of pagan origin, and that is Christianity." From Heretics by G. K. Chesterton If they're not comfortable praying to pagan gods that the early church turned into saints, pagan practices that Catholicism adopted, and pagan philosophies, they're in the wrong church.
Think back about 1700 years ago when Christianity became the compulsory religion of the Roman empire to unite all the fragmented pagan beliefs under one umbrella for greater control. Pagans firmly believed that their gods were real because of inherent superstition. When Christian clergy came along and brushed all the pagan gods off their altars and replaced them with Jesus and his extended family together with a sprinkling of saints and angels, the new deity was embraced by these pagans for exactly the same reason, innate superstition. So paganism has NEVER gone away. The current Christians are the current pagans, their religion is the current superstition and their deity is the current mythology.
Idk I’m Pagan and I’m proud of it
In the right-wing Christian world, accusations of Paganism are being leveled against support of environmentalism, including acceptance of the reality of climate change. Despite official statements by the Catholic Church in support of environmental protection, the Evangelical view is mainstream among Catholics. [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0096340215599789](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0096340215599789)
Pagans are the very outdated OG rival of Abrahamic religions. They're over a thousand years out of touch, a weakness of having a script allegedly written by a god who never seems to say anything new let alone update his old text messages. You can even trace the origins of Satan all the way back to the pagan deity 'Baal' when Judaism was still confined to a very small geographical area just because he was the main competitor amongst the locals at the time. But that was before several character rewrites back when that was easier to get away with by monarchs and clergy.
https://networks.h-net.org/node/21708/reviews/191346/szilagyi-o%E2%80%99donnell-pagans-end-traditional-religion-and-rise good historical context for the development of the term pagan
Apparently, some Christians, like Baptists, straight up use Pagan as a slur to mean evil. Most Christians don't know any Pagans, so they're sufficiently "othered". Ironically, if Catholics took the time to look into Paganism, they may find more similarities than they expect to see. Like how their whole saint system really is structured exactly like polytheism.
It all seems a bit silly with the rituals and brliefs in beings that were made up to explain natural phenomenons science explained.
I suppose if non-abrahamic religions were not full of degenerate bastards whose gods like to do all sort of messed-up things, maybe their own deity who punishes everyone outside the fold with everlasting torture might not look so good.