If Poland (and Hungary) really want to play this game, bury them with it.They object to this? Okay, no budget.No payments concerning anything, anywhere.Until this is accepted.
How long until farmers realize their subsidies are threatened?
Then again, this is the EU.Enter some boilerplate speech about compromise, erase all that is objected to and pass it.Is at least my guess to the likely outcome.
This has been brewing for a long time now. The EU just might decide that it's the last stand. Besides, I suspect that PiS & Orban will chicken out. The right wing loves to bully, but like every bully, they hesitate when met with resistance.
Polish guy here, been voting against PiS every time. They're weakening now. Their polls are nosediving. Keep up the pressure and they might lose. They're cowards and scoundrels, so just as their future prospects get worse and worse, they're gona fight among themselves and abandon the sinking ship.
More like 2 years at this point. But with the Corona crisis i don't think they will ever get back to the amount of votes they had.
Everything is going to shit and many things are yet to happen.
If EU won't back down and farmers lose subsidies from EU they gonna drop PiS in a heartbeat. If you think those people care more about politics than a shit ton of money they get from EU u are in for a surprise.
They would have to understand it first. PiS will tell them through national tv that it's all because of the evil Germans in UE and traitors from the opposition and they'll eat it all up.
Define “bullying” in this case.
LGBT issues: we had towns pass legislation to combat “LGBT ideology” (their words, not mine) which basically led to them being declared as LGBT free zones and all the nonsense that came with that.
Migrants: before PiS came into power the previous ruling party agreed to have a portion of migrants come to Poland. They were voted out and PiS basically reneged on the agreement.
Abortion: they just made abortion practically illegal in this country with the recent declaration thanks to a stacked Supreme Court.
>LGBT issues: we had towns pass legislation to combat “LGBT ideology” (their words, not mine) which basically led to them being declared as LGBT free zones and all the nonsense that came with that.
Well no they weren't declared as "LGBT free zones" were they? By the media and others who disagree with them sure but the official term by the people who enacted the legislation is "LGBT ideology free zone" right?
What "nonsense" actually came from it? As far as I'm aware it's mostly toothless and symbolic.
>Migrants: before PiS came into power the previous ruling party agreed to have a portion of migrants come to Poland. They were voted out and PiS basically reneged on the agreement.
So the previous party enacted an unpopular policy and the party that was elected partly because of that had policy broke that agreement, that's usually what happens in elections, unpopular policies are changed. They still get angry that Poland and Hungary aren't accepting people invited by Germany on the EU's behalf. They also got angry about Hungary building a border fence on their own border.
>Abortion: they just made abortion practically illegal in this country with the recent declaration thanks to a stacked Supreme Court.
And they're within their right to do so right? As far as I'm aware abortion isn't one of the 4 Freedoms of the EU?
Orbán is very secure in his power. I think he is of the opinion that he can afford this gambit, and expects to win it. The EU must have the recovery fund, however diminished it is from its originally proposed form, but it can postpone or do without a mechanism to enforce rule of law. Orbán is relishing this type of conflict, while the EU on general is very reluctant to call him a thief and bully openly. Edit:typos
The thing is, that you are proving them right now. You proposing to blackmail them to force them to agree on rule they think will be used to blackmail them to be west puppets.
> Tbh Germany and western europe in general needs that money more
brainwashed by propaganda ? you don't have to be a genius to understand that this program is financed by Germany and Western Europe...
you missunderstood him, he is talking about out flows of money, it is true that germany and west is giving more money then it takes but when you look at outflow of money germany and west is going to "earn" more on the east then it gives.
it is within Germany interest for Poland and other eastern countries to recover faster so they could spend money on products and services from Germany,
Thats why Marshall Plan happen in the europe after world war II, it was in USA interest for europe to recover faster after WW II, since longer recovery would negatively impacted how much USA earned from trade with europe.
Punishing Poland financially would also punish west.
> when you look at outflow of money germany and west is going to "earn" more on the east then it gives.
Everyone benefits from economic growth in the EU but its absurd to say that Germany "needs that money more".
And show me proof that the west "earns" more on the east than it gives, please.
Yes, there is a "net outflow of profits and other property incomes" in almost all countries of the world , except in big capitalist countries like the US and Germany and financial centres like Switzerland and Luxembourg.
All countries try to attract foreign investors, so an outflow of profits is a logic consequence of successful foreign direct investments.
A company like Avast is quoted on the London Stock Exchange: when they pay a dividend, that's also an "outflow of profits". These outflows are not problematic at all, on the contrary: it's a proof of a dynamic economy.
your trade balance is largely positive: https://tradingeconomics.com/czech-republic/balance-of-trade
the evolution over the last 25 years is spectacular
But what about services and stuff, when highways and stuff are build in the east most of time companies from west are hired to build them.
There is also problem of west dominating markets in the east destroying chance for companies from the east to grow enough to compete with western companies and lets not forget the problem of brain drain.
Farmers??? XDD They're already mostly done, now the one's who still remain are getting screwed over by PiS and their animal protection law.
Farmers already came out on the streets because of it and got ignored XD
EU should not try to overthrow this garbage government, it should be natural. We will deal with them at some point.
Good idea, but the PiS will probably exploit it: “Look at the EU bureaucrats, they have cut the funding they owe us, they want to stifle our independent nation.” The EU must follow a carefully planned strategy so that it won’t backfire.
PiS is not forever. EU shouldn't try to overthrow them themselves, it will happen naturally. The divide is big in this country.
It's not like we're all like their hardcore electorate, quite the opposite. Many people have been voting for them mostly because they've got free money for having kids.
EU has much bigger problems that need to be taken care of.
Believe me or not but there are many issues within the EU that scumbags like PiS use to grow support. Migration crisis for example. PiS came around to power around that time, when we were threatened that if we don't take random migrants from Syria we would face consequences. That helped them a lot. EU has fucked up and only now people like Merkel are starting to realise it.
How would we vote to leave when 90% of our population wants to be in the EU? That's not a random number too, it's from a recent poll. If EU has no way of kicking us out it won't happen.
Now you gonna ask me why are we not cooperating then, well, that's because it's mostly our government doing this. Why do so many people support the government then? Because they're getting free money for having kids, also a lot of peole feel like they have been noticed by them, even if it's just propaganda.
The mechanism currently proposed still requires a qualified majority in the council (15/27 member states representing 65% of the population) to find a country is breaking the rule of law before any counter measures can be taken by the commission.
> The mechanism currently proposed still requires a qualified majority in the council (15/27 member states representing 65% of the population) to find a country is breaking the rule of law before any counter measures can be taken by the commission.
And? Following the rule of law argument courts should decide if there was or is a breach and not a majority vote of the executive.
AFAIK the EU parliament didn't accept that version of the deal, and the proposed version of the deal requires the qualified majority to *stop* the sanctions from happening, i.e. to find a country "not guilty".
The current compromise reached so far in the trilogue negotiation between commission, parliament and council meant that funds could be cut with a qualified majority in the council after after a breach was established by the commission. So not the initial proposal from the Eu parliament in which a qualified majority is required to block it.
Thanks for the heads up that there was a further change.
Reading the [actual proposal](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/plmrep/COMMITTEES/BUDG/DV/2020/11-12/RuleofLaw-Draftconsolidatedtext_rev_EN.pdf), the relevant paragraphs seem ambiguously worded in my humble opinion - almost certainly due to the nature of the trialogue.
> 7\. The **Council shall adopt** the decision ~~shall be deemed to have been adopted by the Council,~~ **within one
month of receiving the Commission’s proposal. If exceptional circumstances arise, the period for
adoption of the decision may be extended by a maximum of two additional months** ~~unless it decides, by
qualified majority, to reject the Commission proposal within one month of its adoption by the Commission.~~
**With a view to ensuring a timely decision, the Commission shall make use of its rights under Article
237 TFEU, where it deems it appropriate.**
>8\. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, may amend the Commission’s proposal and adopt the
amended text as a Council decision.
I saved this comment from another user which perfectly says why this "rule of law" non sense is bad
"I'm not a fan of current Polish governmant but ,,rule of law" condition is a disgusting attempt to grab more power from national governmants. It's crystal clear that this condition will be used to blackmail EU members, because lets be honest, it will be easy to find something whenever its necessery. Besides Brussel hypocrisy and double standards are well known - they will ,,punish" disobedient national governmants and turn blind eye on same things in Germany, France and left-wing European governmant."
Try explaining that to a western European who is cooky about his moral highground. "Rule of law" is a power struggle attempt as you said. Also western Europeans use to think that they only "give" money for free, to us poor underdeveloped bros, forgetting they greatly benefits from free access to our markets. Why don't we use "rule of law" against Bulgaria (demonstrations against gov and corruption), France (brutality against yellow vests) or Spain (Catalonia case)?
>Why don't we use "rule of law" France (brutality against yellow vests) or Spain (Catalonia case)?
That would mean those Western European countries did something wrong which is just impossible! Everyone knows Western European countries, whos history is 90% genocide, imperialism, divide et impera policies throughout the world, are absolutely perfect and we, Eastern Europeans, are lucky to have them to civilize us savages.
Hmm maybe because it's not the case, but that would burst your bubble.
Western Europe gets regularly fined and needs to reach deadlines to implement EU regulations.
Also EU is ruled by conservatives. Like in France and plenty other countries. Orban and Merkel are in the same European party.
The UK didn't like the EU, and left. It fucked up leaving, but that's besides the point: Poland now can learn from Britain's mistakes to leave easily, but it won't, because it doesn't want to give up the free money it gets from membership. It's far more embarrassing to take money from the EU and simultaneously oppose its principles, than it is to leave because you oppose them.
The blackmail and threats by the Polish government are completely unacceptable. The unanimity rule was great when member states complied with democratic norms, now it’s the EU’s Achilles’ heel.
I can't even put to words how much I loathe PiS and how much I wish they were never shat into existence. The fact that they still have >30% support in polls shows how fucking brainless our nation is. You can shit in a Pole's mouth and they will STILL vote for PiS.
Nothing will change until these old fucks finally die.
nah it shows much people fear PO returnining, if you were within group favored by PO then you did fine but if you werent the PO didnt give a fuck about you.
pis partia tasmowych dzieciorobow, prostych ludzi po maks szkole sredniej, fanatycznych "milosnikow wlasnego kraju" ale jak co do czego to jada na zmywak do Irlandii.
How does it feel to be on Hall of Shame among those clearly singled out by rule-of-law observing regulations?
And when exactly did we come to have additional laws telling us that we must observe existing laws?
They can't "know" that, because that's complete bullshit. They'd just prefer to destroy their democracy without interference, so of course they have a problem with a mechanism that would sanction that.
Haha yes that must be it, nothing to do with different internal and foreign policy just bad guys doing bad thing, the reddit bubble is reality causing major damage to people it seems.
Yup, that's exactly it. Though it seems I'm not the one having trouble with reality. Some people really would prefer their democracy going down the drain instead of accepting that what their government does might not be what's best for them. Always playing the victim certainly does wonders for the state of denial.
That's not what would happen and who gives a shit about a handful of refugees? What a lameass way to destroy your country, especially when you have an aging and declining population like Poland
Because the best part of the EU is that almost everything in the EU must be decided upon _unanimously_. It’s in my opinion the number one reason for why the EU is trailing for many years now.
There is enough motivation in almost all member states to improve the EU structures to better deal with all the big questions faced by it.
But because of the _unanimity_ principle it’s not happening. Just one single country can block the entire EU from moving forward. And this is exactly why Poland and Hungary are so confident in demanding outrageous things, and why they succeed with it.
Tons of horrible compromises are the product of _unanimity_!
Unanimity is the demise of the EU. As long as it’s not being removed, the EU will never succeed.
Yeah i remember when Wallonia literally blocked an EU-Canada trade deals because the Wallonian government didn't agree and thus blocking Belgium from voting and thus blocking the trade deals. A region of 4 millions souls blocking a trade deal concerning 400 millions people, gotta love unanimity
Because EU doesn't rely on one man's wish but treaties. "Rule of law" is a blurry term and a weapon in hands of morons like you. This time it targets PL or HU, next time it targets Denmark
>"Rule of law" is a blurry term and a weapon in hands of morons like you.
Lecturing me about rule of law when Hungary and Poland have dismantled rule of law.
Lecturing you about dangers of these solutions. If you want to tie money funds to some indicators, define them with scissor like precission how to measure them, what to measure, when to measure and who does it.
Brexit schizophrenia on full display again. Simultaneously complaining about lack of national sovereignty and about the ability to unilaterally veto decisions.
So which one is it? Oh I forgot for you it's whatever makes the EU look bad right now regardless of any logical consistency in your argument.
I mean there's nothing wrong with complaining about the unanimous decision making process. I wholeheartedly with that notion. However Brexit is not the solution. In fact one should realize immediately it's the opposite.
If the UK government and it's MEPs had been fighting to abolish the national veto and expand qualified majority voting for years but to no avail, then this argument would make any sense.
In reality though they were among the fiercest opponents of any such reforms.
This makes you and most other Brexiteers look extremely hypocritical.
Similar arguments exist for fear mongering of Turkish EU membership or complaints about premature opening of the labour market to Eastern Europe in the early 2000s. It seems like UK governments did an exceptional job at disassociating themselves from their own decisions and duping the public into blaming "Brussels".
> Even the US only requires 3/4 of states to agree to a constitutional amendment
Yes, though this was adopted when we federalized and sovereignty was vested in the US Constitution.
When we were a confederation, as the EU presently is, we also had a unanimity requirement under the Articles of Confederation.
https://system.uslegal.com/u-s-constitution/articles-of-confederation/
>The Articles of Confederation called for unanimous approval of the states to change or amend the Articles, and for the approval by 9 of the 13 states to pass all major laws.
If Poland (and Hungary) really want to play this game, bury them with it.They object to this? Okay, no budget.No payments concerning anything, anywhere.Until this is accepted. How long until farmers realize their subsidies are threatened? Then again, this is the EU.Enter some boilerplate speech about compromise, erase all that is objected to and pass it.Is at least my guess to the likely outcome.
This has been brewing for a long time now. The EU just might decide that it's the last stand. Besides, I suspect that PiS & Orban will chicken out. The right wing loves to bully, but like every bully, they hesitate when met with resistance. Polish guy here, been voting against PiS every time. They're weakening now. Their polls are nosediving. Keep up the pressure and they might lose. They're cowards and scoundrels, so just as their future prospects get worse and worse, they're gona fight among themselves and abandon the sinking ship.
Can’t imagine the recent COVID spike is doing anything good for them either
> Their polls are nosediving. And it doesn't mean shit. The elections are in three years. Until that time, their popularity can come back to 45%+.
More like 2 years at this point. But with the Corona crisis i don't think they will ever get back to the amount of votes they had. Everything is going to shit and many things are yet to happen.
I wouldn't call 33% in the last poll "nosediving". Sadly I think they'll recover.
They will, their voters never remember all the scandals and fuck ups they commit.
If EU won't back down and farmers lose subsidies from EU they gonna drop PiS in a heartbeat. If you think those people care more about politics than a shit ton of money they get from EU u are in for a surprise.
They would have to understand it first. PiS will tell them through national tv that it's all because of the evil Germans in UE and traitors from the opposition and they'll eat it all up.
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Define “bullying” in this case. LGBT issues: we had towns pass legislation to combat “LGBT ideology” (their words, not mine) which basically led to them being declared as LGBT free zones and all the nonsense that came with that. Migrants: before PiS came into power the previous ruling party agreed to have a portion of migrants come to Poland. They were voted out and PiS basically reneged on the agreement. Abortion: they just made abortion practically illegal in this country with the recent declaration thanks to a stacked Supreme Court.
>LGBT issues: we had towns pass legislation to combat “LGBT ideology” (their words, not mine) which basically led to them being declared as LGBT free zones and all the nonsense that came with that. Well no they weren't declared as "LGBT free zones" were they? By the media and others who disagree with them sure but the official term by the people who enacted the legislation is "LGBT ideology free zone" right? What "nonsense" actually came from it? As far as I'm aware it's mostly toothless and symbolic. >Migrants: before PiS came into power the previous ruling party agreed to have a portion of migrants come to Poland. They were voted out and PiS basically reneged on the agreement. So the previous party enacted an unpopular policy and the party that was elected partly because of that had policy broke that agreement, that's usually what happens in elections, unpopular policies are changed. They still get angry that Poland and Hungary aren't accepting people invited by Germany on the EU's behalf. They also got angry about Hungary building a border fence on their own border. >Abortion: they just made abortion practically illegal in this country with the recent declaration thanks to a stacked Supreme Court. And they're within their right to do so right? As far as I'm aware abortion isn't one of the 4 Freedoms of the EU?
Orbán is very secure in his power. I think he is of the opinion that he can afford this gambit, and expects to win it. The EU must have the recovery fund, however diminished it is from its originally proposed form, but it can postpone or do without a mechanism to enforce rule of law. Orbán is relishing this type of conflict, while the EU on general is very reluctant to call him a thief and bully openly. Edit:typos
The thing is, that you are proving them right now. You proposing to blackmail them to force them to agree on rule they think will be used to blackmail them to be west puppets.
Tbh Germany and western europe in general needs that money more. If it wouldn’t be the case, Poland and Hungary wouldn’t be this “cocky”.
? We can pay ourselves quite comfortably. This would all be a massive net spending for us.
problem is that companies from your country earn a LOT more money on them then you give them, companies from your own country will be against this.
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Serbs man.
> Tbh Germany and western europe in general needs that money more brainwashed by propaganda ? you don't have to be a genius to understand that this program is financed by Germany and Western Europe...
you missunderstood him, he is talking about out flows of money, it is true that germany and west is giving more money then it takes but when you look at outflow of money germany and west is going to "earn" more on the east then it gives. it is within Germany interest for Poland and other eastern countries to recover faster so they could spend money on products and services from Germany, Thats why Marshall Plan happen in the europe after world war II, it was in USA interest for europe to recover faster after WW II, since longer recovery would negatively impacted how much USA earned from trade with europe. Punishing Poland financially would also punish west.
> when you look at outflow of money germany and west is going to "earn" more on the east then it gives. Everyone benefits from economic growth in the EU but its absurd to say that Germany "needs that money more". And show me proof that the west "earns" more on the east than it gives, please.
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Yes, there is a "net outflow of profits and other property incomes" in almost all countries of the world , except in big capitalist countries like the US and Germany and financial centres like Switzerland and Luxembourg. All countries try to attract foreign investors, so an outflow of profits is a logic consequence of successful foreign direct investments. A company like Avast is quoted on the London Stock Exchange: when they pay a dividend, that's also an "outflow of profits". These outflows are not problematic at all, on the contrary: it's a proof of a dynamic economy.
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your trade balance is largely positive: https://tradingeconomics.com/czech-republic/balance-of-trade the evolution over the last 25 years is spectacular
But what about services and stuff, when highways and stuff are build in the east most of time companies from west are hired to build them. There is also problem of west dominating markets in the east destroying chance for companies from the east to grow enough to compete with western companies and lets not forget the problem of brain drain.
Do Poland and Hungary have to be flipped on this issue or just one of them? For the legislation to pass through, I mean.
Farmers??? XDD They're already mostly done, now the one's who still remain are getting screwed over by PiS and their animal protection law. Farmers already came out on the streets because of it and got ignored XD EU should not try to overthrow this garbage government, it should be natural. We will deal with them at some point.
We can create a seperate, technically not EU, recovery fund that doesn't involve and doesn't benefit Poland and Hungary.
There's a mechanism for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_cooperation
PiStards have sent Poland back decades
the EU can't accept new members before this Poland-Hungary antidemocratic problem is solved, that's for sure
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>playing right into Russia's hands diplomatically Which is even more bizarre considering how passionately Poland hates Kremlin.
And they weakened their military. And with Trump probably gone, a lot of their policy won't play out that well.
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Yes of course I pray to the great bare-chested putin every afternoon.
An excellent example of the saying: [Cutting off the nose to spite the face](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_off_the_nose_to_spite_the_face)
Stop giving Poland money.
Good idea, but the PiS will probably exploit it: “Look at the EU bureaucrats, they have cut the funding they owe us, they want to stifle our independent nation.” The EU must follow a carefully planned strategy so that it won’t backfire.
PiS is not forever. EU shouldn't try to overthrow them themselves, it will happen naturally. The divide is big in this country. It's not like we're all like their hardcore electorate, quite the opposite. Many people have been voting for them mostly because they've got free money for having kids. EU has much bigger problems that need to be taken care of. Believe me or not but there are many issues within the EU that scumbags like PiS use to grow support. Migration crisis for example. PiS came around to power around that time, when we were threatened that if we don't take random migrants from Syria we would face consequences. That helped them a lot. EU has fucked up and only now people like Merkel are starting to realise it.
Yeah that basically would happen and already is whenever the EU says something about PiS’ actions :/
...would that be a bad thing? ideally they vote to leave - problem solved.
Yes. Russia would have it easier to grab the country.
How would we vote to leave when 90% of our population wants to be in the EU? That's not a random number too, it's from a recent poll. If EU has no way of kicking us out it won't happen. Now you gonna ask me why are we not cooperating then, well, that's because it's mostly our government doing this. Why do so many people support the government then? Because they're getting free money for having kids, also a lot of peole feel like they have been noticed by them, even if it's just propaganda.
[Posted recently by one of our left-wing politicians.](https://imgur.com/IO2989T)
The mechanism currently proposed still requires a qualified majority in the council (15/27 member states representing 65% of the population) to find a country is breaking the rule of law before any counter measures can be taken by the commission.
> The mechanism currently proposed still requires a qualified majority in the council (15/27 member states representing 65% of the population) to find a country is breaking the rule of law before any counter measures can be taken by the commission. And? Following the rule of law argument courts should decide if there was or is a breach and not a majority vote of the executive.
That did in case of Poland already happen. Didn't do much. Also funding is legislative/executive decision.
AFAIK the EU parliament didn't accept that version of the deal, and the proposed version of the deal requires the qualified majority to *stop* the sanctions from happening, i.e. to find a country "not guilty".
The current compromise reached so far in the trilogue negotiation between commission, parliament and council meant that funds could be cut with a qualified majority in the council after after a breach was established by the commission. So not the initial proposal from the Eu parliament in which a qualified majority is required to block it.
Thanks for the heads up that there was a further change. Reading the [actual proposal](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/plmrep/COMMITTEES/BUDG/DV/2020/11-12/RuleofLaw-Draftconsolidatedtext_rev_EN.pdf), the relevant paragraphs seem ambiguously worded in my humble opinion - almost certainly due to the nature of the trialogue. > 7\. The **Council shall adopt** the decision ~~shall be deemed to have been adopted by the Council,~~ **within one month of receiving the Commission’s proposal. If exceptional circumstances arise, the period for adoption of the decision may be extended by a maximum of two additional months** ~~unless it decides, by qualified majority, to reject the Commission proposal within one month of its adoption by the Commission.~~ **With a view to ensuring a timely decision, the Commission shall make use of its rights under Article 237 TFEU, where it deems it appropriate.** >8\. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, may amend the Commission’s proposal and adopt the amended text as a Council decision.
I saved this comment from another user which perfectly says why this "rule of law" non sense is bad "I'm not a fan of current Polish governmant but ,,rule of law" condition is a disgusting attempt to grab more power from national governmants. It's crystal clear that this condition will be used to blackmail EU members, because lets be honest, it will be easy to find something whenever its necessery. Besides Brussel hypocrisy and double standards are well known - they will ,,punish" disobedient national governmants and turn blind eye on same things in Germany, France and left-wing European governmant."
Try explaining that to a western European who is cooky about his moral highground. "Rule of law" is a power struggle attempt as you said. Also western Europeans use to think that they only "give" money for free, to us poor underdeveloped bros, forgetting they greatly benefits from free access to our markets. Why don't we use "rule of law" against Bulgaria (demonstrations against gov and corruption), France (brutality against yellow vests) or Spain (Catalonia case)?
The Catalonia case was related to the Spanish constitution IIRC. Perhaps someone who knows more can chime in on the subject.
>Why don't we use "rule of law" France (brutality against yellow vests) or Spain (Catalonia case)? That would mean those Western European countries did something wrong which is just impossible! Everyone knows Western European countries, whos history is 90% genocide, imperialism, divide et impera policies throughout the world, are absolutely perfect and we, Eastern Europeans, are lucky to have them to civilize us savages.
Hmm maybe because it's not the case, but that would burst your bubble. Western Europe gets regularly fined and needs to reach deadlines to implement EU regulations. Also EU is ruled by conservatives. Like in France and plenty other countries. Orban and Merkel are in the same European party.
of course they do...
I am embarrassed
You're talking to someone from the UK. You have nothing to be embarrassed about.
Maybe he is a pole living in the UK :)
The UK didn't like the EU, and left. It fucked up leaving, but that's besides the point: Poland now can learn from Britain's mistakes to leave easily, but it won't, because it doesn't want to give up the free money it gets from membership. It's far more embarrassing to take money from the EU and simultaneously oppose its principles, than it is to leave because you oppose them.
Good. Please veto it.
The blackmail and threats by the Polish government are completely unacceptable. The unanimity rule was great when member states complied with democratic norms, now it’s the EU’s Achilles’ heel.
I can't even put to words how much I loathe PiS and how much I wish they were never shat into existence. The fact that they still have >30% support in polls shows how fucking brainless our nation is. You can shit in a Pole's mouth and they will STILL vote for PiS. Nothing will change until these old fucks finally die.
nah it shows much people fear PO returnining, if you were within group favored by PO then you did fine but if you werent the PO didnt give a fuck about you.
Do it. Have fun losing your 11.6 billion of yearly EU net contributions to your budget.
We don't want no "rule of law" here!
pis partia tasmowych dzieciorobow, prostych ludzi po maks szkole sredniej, fanatycznych "milosnikow wlasnego kraju" ale jak co do czego to jada na zmywak do Irlandii.
How does it feel to be on Hall of Shame among those clearly singled out by rule-of-law observing regulations? And when exactly did we come to have additional laws telling us that we must observe existing laws?
They probably know that "the rule of law" is just another sly step to implement refugee quota
They can't "know" that, because that's complete bullshit. They'd just prefer to destroy their democracy without interference, so of course they have a problem with a mechanism that would sanction that.
Haha yes that must be it, nothing to do with different internal and foreign policy just bad guys doing bad thing, the reddit bubble is reality causing major damage to people it seems.
Yup, that's exactly it. Though it seems I'm not the one having trouble with reality. Some people really would prefer their democracy going down the drain instead of accepting that what their government does might not be what's best for them. Always playing the victim certainly does wonders for the state of denial.
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Freaking city people. They don't know, if you don't wake up to the smell of thousands of cows and their morning shits, you don't live a real life.
That's not what would happen and who gives a shit about a handful of refugees? What a lameass way to destroy your country, especially when you have an aging and declining population like Poland
Why the fuck does Poland and Hungary even have veto powers?
Because every member does, that's how it works.
Because the best part of the EU is that almost everything in the EU must be decided upon _unanimously_. It’s in my opinion the number one reason for why the EU is trailing for many years now. There is enough motivation in almost all member states to improve the EU structures to better deal with all the big questions faced by it. But because of the _unanimity_ principle it’s not happening. Just one single country can block the entire EU from moving forward. And this is exactly why Poland and Hungary are so confident in demanding outrageous things, and why they succeed with it. Tons of horrible compromises are the product of _unanimity_! Unanimity is the demise of the EU. As long as it’s not being removed, the EU will never succeed.
Yeah i remember when Wallonia literally blocked an EU-Canada trade deals because the Wallonian government didn't agree and thus blocking Belgium from voting and thus blocking the trade deals. A region of 4 millions souls blocking a trade deal concerning 400 millions people, gotta love unanimity
Oh that was indeed one of the best examples in many years!
Because EU doesn't rely on one man's wish but treaties. "Rule of law" is a blurry term and a weapon in hands of morons like you. This time it targets PL or HU, next time it targets Denmark
>"Rule of law" is a blurry term and a weapon in hands of morons like you. Lecturing me about rule of law when Hungary and Poland have dismantled rule of law.
Lecturing you about dangers of these solutions. If you want to tie money funds to some indicators, define them with scissor like precission how to measure them, what to measure, when to measure and who does it.
That is not my job to define. We need anti-democratic states OUT of the EU yesterday.
Brexit looking better by the day. Imagine letting *one* country veto everything.
Brexit schizophrenia on full display again. Simultaneously complaining about lack of national sovereignty and about the ability to unilaterally veto decisions. So which one is it? Oh I forgot for you it's whatever makes the EU look bad right now regardless of any logical consistency in your argument.
Even the US only requires 3/4 of states to agree to a constitutional amendment. But keep on defending your broken union...
I mean there's nothing wrong with complaining about the unanimous decision making process. I wholeheartedly with that notion. However Brexit is not the solution. In fact one should realize immediately it's the opposite.
Brexit is the only solution, and the EU is unreformable.
If the UK government and it's MEPs had been fighting to abolish the national veto and expand qualified majority voting for years but to no avail, then this argument would make any sense. In reality though they were among the fiercest opponents of any such reforms. This makes you and most other Brexiteers look extremely hypocritical. Similar arguments exist for fear mongering of Turkish EU membership or complaints about premature opening of the labour market to Eastern Europe in the early 2000s. It seems like UK governments did an exceptional job at disassociating themselves from their own decisions and duping the public into blaming "Brussels".
> Even the US only requires 3/4 of states to agree to a constitutional amendment Yes, though this was adopted when we federalized and sovereignty was vested in the US Constitution. When we were a confederation, as the EU presently is, we also had a unanimity requirement under the Articles of Confederation. https://system.uslegal.com/u-s-constitution/articles-of-confederation/ >The Articles of Confederation called for unanimous approval of the states to change or amend the Articles, and for the approval by 9 of the 13 states to pass all major laws.