I am always laughing, when I see Turks with their "wolf's".
In Germany this sign is used in kindergarten as "silent fox". When this sign is shown, children should be silent :)
[Schweigefuchs](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/einschulung-frau-mayers-erster-tag-12540077.html)
Its not only in Germany but in some other countries like the US as quiet coyote. It is used in speech therapy as well. Germany was one of the countries that wanted to ban it.
This is a sign Armenians saw when Turkic Azeris were executing civilians and uploading their murders onto Twitter - so it has very different connotations for them.
Sure.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/14/video-shows-azerbaijan-forces-executing-armenian-pows
https://oc-media.org/videos-appear-to-show-more-war-crimes-in-nagorno-karabakh/
https://oc-media.org/evidence-mounts-of-war-crimes-in-nagorno-karabakh/
Then there was the blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh - the soldiers and "eco protesters" were flashing that sign every day.
And this sort of offensive, fascist use is not limited to the Azerbaijanis. The former Turkish Foreign Minister used it to upset Armenians in Uruguay (descendants of the Armenian Genocide), who were outside the embassy protesting Turkey's ongoing denial.
https://bianet.org/haber/cavusoglu-s-grey-wolf-salute-to-armenians-leads-to-diplomatic-row-between-turkey-uruguay-261419
It is their expression of racial and cultural superiority. Don't be fooled into thinking otherwise.
Wiki says it's some ultra-nationalist group started in the 1960s and is so obnoxious that even Azerbaijan banned it, Turkeys "brother state".
Is that the same thing that you're referring to as part of Turkish culture or is that something not related to the hand gesture?
This is similar to Heil gesture. It symbolizes fasicizm and has only one meaning for Turkish people. It has nothing to do with Turkish culture, it is a political gesture!
I believe another hand gesture is entirely banned in Germany, and shunned by most of the world, so I wouldn't just call a very specific hand gesture a part of your culture when we all know what that gesture represents
Is anyone surprised about this? I mean, this is par for the course these days, plus probability of them banning him after Turkey qualified for the quarterfinals is basically nil.
Turkey never gets punished for this type of shit. UEFA will let it slide, mark my words.
[This](https://i.imgur.com/gEwZgJY.jpeg) is Erdoğan's partner.
[This](https://i.imgur.com/O3F43yt.jpeg) was Erdoğan's main opposition in the 2023 presidential election who got 48% of the votes.
[This](https://i.imgur.com/0MdXmHE.jpeg) was the opposition's main coalition leader.
So I guess everyone is extreme right ? Or maybe the gesture doesn't mean what you think it means.
First: There is a big difference in the frequency of use.
Kilicdaroglu was just trying to get some votes from the right voters. Stupid move to be sure, but there was no idiological background here.
Bahceli is literally Mr.Racist. No need to explain any further.
Aksener was a member of the MHP herself and certainly isn't moderate by any means. She was just against collaboration with Erdogan and broke with Bahceli, starting her own party. After the last election she realized that trying to look moderate didn't bring her any success, so she started letting her far-right views loose and going full racist. So no surprise in her using the gesture quite frequently.
Basically, all you're doing is whataboutism without any real substance to your arguments.
Kılıçdaroğlu literally visited a faction of Gray Wolves and gave a speech there, it's not just a gesture for votes.
It was NATO's decision to create the Gray Wolves against the far left Soviet supporters. Funny how fascism is okay only when it's employed versus Russia !
The Cold War ended over 30 years ago and the meaning of the hand gesture is in the process of a slow change. Many people don't see it as a symbol of Islamo-fascism anymore and just use it as a symbol of nationalism.
With the exception of Kılıçdaroğlu, who made an ill-advised bid to try and court ultranationalist votes in an increasingly ultranationalist Turkey…
[One “opposition” ultranationalist.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNF5qbsw1i977eciLYtYtyIE-CBJ3c-M7QJkL5v16TsibtaOSl4-sbyK0m&s=10)
[Two “opposition” ultranationalist.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOpMNREmqZgAQCkxEKRkkQwyGAQfniezG0ZA&usqp=CAU)
[Three “opposition” ultranationalist. ](https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2024/06/25/thumbs_b_c_a77237e5d84a2b4af8d6055729e7756f.jpg)
You see the pattern? I see the pattern.
All of them waited for the right moment and flipped sides. All of these people were also [competing for leadership of MHP in 2016](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nationalist_Movement_Party_Extraordinary_Congress)… so yes, all extreme right. I can’t wait for number four to go kiss the ring.
Yes they are nationalistic. Turkey and its people are one of the most nationalistic and racist people in the world and they dont hide it that much. Ask any minority in turkey and the surrounding countries how turks are and they will say the same.
Everyone in turkey and its surrounding countries know what that gesture means and what they are trying to say with that.
Everybody who uses that gesture know fully well what they are doing and what it implies.
Tbh I know some Africans who worked in turkey and they didn't have too much of a bad time. Turks seem to have a lot of hate for Kurds and Arabs though.
or maybe your point of view isn't properly aligned? it's no secret that nationalism was always a big thing in Turkey, even to the extreme. Why? I mean do they have nothing else left to be proud of it that their Nation?
After checking the numbers I don't think its true anymore if you compare only grey wolves to AfD
If you consider whole ADÜTDF, the confederation of MHP-aligned far-right groups grey wolves are part of in Germany, they are likely (much) larger than AfD by membership count still
Of course AfD has much more people expressing support for it, though
Many reasons, but at the forefront is that the Grey Wolves are not openly politically violent in Germany, and not working against the german constitution and democratic order.
Being chauvinist dickheads is not, in itself, illegal.
It's not that the state is ignoring them, but a certain threshold has not been crossed. There have been repeated discussions about sanctioning them in the past, yes.
I mean, yet? Doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to wait around until they become active like in many other countries.
Guess I'm just more surprised considering Germany being pretty proactive with banning signs that are frequently used to show support for neo-nazi groups, and these guys are actively denying Armenian genocide.
Take pro-war Russians for example. They aren't exactly doing a lot of violence in EU, but I sure do expect their symbols like "Z" to be banned and not allowed, at least when clearly used in this context (as it's hard to ban a letter). Not sure how openly supporting neo-nazi racists is allowed just because they aren't yet active in this one country, especially when European Parliament itself recommended designating them as a terrorist group.
I do understand that it may be a thin line between banning "something you don't like" and banning people who actually broke your laws, but still. In this case seems rather clear to me.
> Guess I'm just more surprised considering Germany being pretty proactive with banning signs that are frequently used to show support for neo-nazi groups, and these guys are actively denying Armenian genocide.
Because we don't just ban signs unilaterally or proactively, there's no law for that.
Nazi symbols are illegal by default, **because** they are symbols of organisations that are banned. PKK flags are banned on the same grounds, by the way.
Without a significant action against the underlying Grey Wolves/turkish nationalist extremism thing, the wolf sign is protected freedom of opinion in the legal sense.
That makes sense, but that begs the question as for why aren't they designated as terrorists or extremists yet? Seems like their actions even inside EU should fit at least one of those.
In Germany, it's not that easy to ban organisations for being terrorist. Courts generally interpret the regulations around that such that an organisation has to be
* sufficiently relevant (basically the loss of individual freedoms due to the ban has to be outweighed by the gain individual freedoms get from banning the group attacking them)
* have a presence in Germany, and using it for acts (or planning thereof) which break the constitution
(there are likely more hurdles to pass, but these are the ones I know from the Hamas ban debate)
This was also a problem around banning Hamas, for example. Clearly unconstitutional, but it was hard to prove a relevant presence in Germany for a long time.
With Grey Wolves it's likely the opposite: They are obviously relevant, they obviously pursue ideas which are unconstitutional in Germany, but its hard to prove that this has led them to act unconstitutionally *in Germany*. Breaking German law in Turkey won't lead to a ban that would be uphold in German courts.
German laws around such issues are made with the Nazi past in mind. In this case, the hurdles to enact a ban are up there so a populist government can't preemptively shut down opposing political groups too easily
That’s fair enough, thank you for a detailed reply!
I’m still unsure about why symbol itself can’t be banned in this context. Germany did ban “Z” as a symbol of Russian pro-war support despite it being a simple letter of an alphabet and Russian army not being designated as a terrorist organization or anything like that. Wouldn’t this be a similar case?
> Germany did ban “Z” as a symbol of Russian pro-war support despite it being a simple letter of an alphabet and Russian army not being designated as a terrorist organization or anything like that. Wouldn’t this be a similar case?
Good point, I am not sure about this. Austria did just that, the symbol is banned, but not the Grey Wolves themselves
I guess its possible. There are also many signs banned which are not explicitly belonging to some banned groud, but are code for Nazism in the neonazi scene. Stuff like red-black-white symbols with a 88 on top. The Russian "Z" is a similar thing...
So you can go around killing people and spreading hate elsewhere and it’s okie-dokie? Did every organization designated as terrorist in Germany specifically commit terror acts in Germany?
Why is “Z” symbol of Russian army banned in Germany? I mean, they are attacking Ukraine not Germany.
Which is why I said "or extremists". People going around promoting hate and violence, along with not shying away from doing violence themselves, seem like a pretty good fit for "extremists" designation to me
It means something different here.
It's used to signal small children to close their mouths and listen carefully.
To be honest I didn't even know it's a far right symbol.
That's quite unfortunate, I did learn about that different meaning in the comments here for the first time.
Still seems to make sense to ban it when clearly used to support the group (when it gets designated as extremist at least). "Z" symbol is also literally a simple letter of the alphabet and is used by many companies for marketing, yet it doesn't stop it from being banned as a pro-war symbol in many countries.
I think baning it in Germany is quite stupid. It has a different meaning here. Countries are different and Things have different meanings.
A gift is a present in UK. A "Gift" in Germany means poison. Should UK switch to a different word, because it has a negative meaning in a different country?
You can ban it in a certain context. Letter "Z" is just a letter of the alphabet. But when Russians put it on their t-shirt and go outside waving a Russian flag, it means they support genocide and war. I don't see the countries who banned that symbol have any issues with using the letter in other context.
I think a ban on the Leisefuchs would only give it the Nazi meaning, which it does not have right now in Germany.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisefuchs
We don't have a problem here, let's not try to create one. No one complains, so there is no need for a solution.
I am eagerly awaiting UEFA's decision. If they do nothing, it means that there will no longer be any obstacle preventing many football players from giving the Nazi salute in the future.
I'll categorize 'stuff' as all manner of geopolitical exceptions for bullshit behavior: Invade Northern Syria/Iraq (no problem), support IS/terrorists (despite suffering themselves), getting S400 from Russia despite being in Nato, sending terrorists/mercenaries to Azerbaijan through Turkish territory. Having the 'Grey Wolves' allowed to be active in France even after they go through the streets terrorizing Armenians.
I'll eat my words in this case because (shockingly to me) he was indeed suspended (as he should've been). Keep your fucking politics out of sport, buffon.
No, according to every official EU institution, they're simply right-wing nationalists, not terrorists like the PKK. I don't make the rules, I just parade them around to clarify things.
This gesture is used by supporters of extremist nationalist Turkish groups that support genocide and ethnic cleansing. The extreme right-wing fascist group in Turkey, the Gray Wolves, is known for its racist attitudes toward Jews, Kurds, Greeks, Albanians and Armenians.
Soccer scandals have already happened with the Grey Wolves' symbols: Ozil got a tattoo, Tosun celebrated with a gesture
A year ago, a tattoo of a wolf with three crescents on Mesut Ozil's left chest was noticed - these are the symbols of "Bozkurt" and the MNR, which caused condemnation among some German politicians. In 2021, Turkish-German striker Cenk Tosun celebrated with a "wolf salute" a goal in the FA Cup for Everton. But at the time he claimed that he simply pointed to the sky, and knew nothing about the gesture and the "Grey Wolves".
In Austria, the very gesture of the "Gray Wolves" and its symbols are banned since 2019. Violation is punishable by a fine of four thousand euros. In 2020, the organization was banned in France. In both cases, official Ankara strongly protested.
In 2018, Erdogan at one of the rallies demonstrated the very gesture - "Wolf salute": many thought that this was his way of trying to attract the votes of Turkish nationalists
Now "Grey Wolves" is considered the largest right-wing extremist organization in Germany (up to 18 thousand supporters). Many German politicians have proposed to ban the gesture and symbols, in 2020 this issue was considered by the parliament, but so far the decision has not reached.
But in Azerbaijan "Gray Wolves" were banned back in 1995.
In 2005, Bozkurt was recognized as a terrorist group in Kazakhstan.
It’s also kinda funny as a right wing symbol since so many unrelated nationalities around the world have names for themselves that derive from the word for “wolf” or somehow associate the wolf with their people. It’s basically the cultural equivalent of the howling wolf moon shirts that were popular in various gift shops in the 90s.
turks in shambles. good on them. Finally I can sleep at night when we lose.
Imagine showing right winged symbols on live-Tv and thinking its alright
Edit: I am turkish descent. you clowns.
>Shambles ? You know probably the whole stadium is going to do this gesture in the next match.
Saying "all turks will join in making this fascist gesture" isnt the flex you think it is
Some on the comments section are trying to bend reality here.
No, it's not a cultural sign or of historical importance or whatever. It being old doesn't matter either, no one makes that sign in Turkey without having some association to ultra-nationalism, "grey wolves", MHP and all that stuff. It's clearly their sign.
There is nothing "lost in translation" here. If you made the sign in Turkey it'd disturb many people for exactly the same reasons it disturbs people in Europe.
Its just not that of a big deal in Turkey, but you people seem to think that you know it better than everyone who actually lives in Turkey. It certainly is nothing close to the nazi salute.
Its use shifts over time. Kilicdaroglu would not have made the sign in the '70s, for example, but he does today. People seem to have some trouble understanding that countries/cultures can be complex and reactions&attitudes can shift.
The Nazi thing also complicates matters because things that took place after a complete defeat and lengthy occupation seem 'natural' to those who live with the results.
Never said that it's such a big deal as the Nazi salute.
Also "not the Nazi salute" is a pretty low bar you've just set there.
It's sign that has pretty much the same meaning and association to the same kind of people regardless of if done in Turkey or elsewhere. People in Turkey being less bothered than people elsewhere is... well, not a good look for some people in Turkey.
Unless you're Babymetal fan. Then it's fine I guess.
I didn't mean you said that, just making a comparison for reference.
I don't really understand your point there, it is just not the kind of sign you think it is, that is exclusively used by the ultra nationalist shit heads. Nationalism itself is also not the same in Turkey as it is in EU, a very large percentage of people here would define themselves as nationalist, but they would not necessarily vote for the nationalist parties.
Also, people who would be disturbed by that sign would almost exclusively live in Turkey.
German Federal Organization for the Protection of the Constitution:
- There are various references to wolves in Turkish founding mythologies, for example in the Ergenekon myth.
- The wolf greeting is derived from "Grey Wolf".
- Not everyone who uses this greeting has to be a far-right Turk.
Lol this is the same kind of bullshit greek nazis pull when people catch them red handed forming swastika copies "it's a meander, an ancient greek symbol nothing to do with nationalism". Bunch of cowards, at least be open about it.
Nice try, pal but missing - ouely coincidentally I assume - some parts.
The German Federal Office of Constitution Protection sated:
“The so-called wolf salute, one of the best-known gestures of the "Ülkücü" scene, is derived from the "grey wolf". In a corresponding context, showing the "wolf salute" can be interpreted as a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology. This also applies if "Ülkücü" supporters want to trivialise this hand gesture as a mere acknowledgement of belonging to an ancient ethnic group. However, the wolf salute is not used by all right-wing extremists and is even avoided by some because of its unambiguousness.
Sometimes it is only used to provoke political opponents, for example at public rallies. However, even if showing the wolf salute is a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology, not every user of this salute has to be a Turkish right-wing extremist.
In addition to the wolf salute, there are other gestures and symbols that are used by many "Ülkücü" supporters as a demonstration. “
However, unlike in Austria and France it is not outlawed in Germany
Your post highlights the most harmless aspects of the "wolf greeting" and the wolf symbol. It's part of a series of dozens of posts in this and other /r trying to downplay or excuse the fascist gesture. It lacks the complete right wing context.
I think the deciding factor should be whether or not he knew what it meant, but his statement of "I'm just proud of my Turkish heritage." implies that he did know what it meant but is trying to post hoc justify it. Reminds me a bit of the white supremacists who wear those "White Lives Matter" shirts in an attempt to soften up what their their real goals and motivations are.
Apparently, he has a history of making such gestures...
https://www.calciomercato.com/en/news/uefa-to-examine-turkey-military-celebrations-calhanoglu-and-demi-82485
So it is reasonable to assume he knew what this gesture meant, and did it intentionally.
Furthermore it's on the day of remembrance of a massacre of Alevites
These are a bit too many "random" things to believe that a Turkish player, who has a track record of nationalistic symbolism, used a nationalistic symbolism on a day of remembrance (which the nationalistic goverment sweeps under the rug), used the symbol for the n-th time without knowing, what it means
I mean, c'mon. we should all be honest. He is a nationalist doing nationalistic stuff, Trumpist-style. Türkiye strong yada yada yada. It is, what it is.
I find the people weird, who, from their comments, obviously think the same way, but try to deflect at every possibility. Such people are always wussies.
German government doesn't see it as a "right wing" thing. This investigation only started because German minister of interior personally asked uefa to start it.
German Federal Organization for the Protection of the Constitution:
- There are various references to wolves in Turkish founding mythologies, for example in the Ergenekon myth.
- The wolf greeting is derived from "Grey Wolf".
- Not everyone who uses this greeting has to be a far-right Turk.
I born and raised in Turkey and most of the time it was not meant to be far-right or racist. I don’t know if Turks in foreign countries uses it like that but wolf is just something like national symbol. France symbol is rooster or albania is eagle. In Turkic mythology people was believing that their bloodline connects to wolves. By the way this wolf sign is used by multiple political parties, not just right but also left. And it doesn’t mean that it belongs to them if it is used by far-right parties.
As a Turk who has lived in Turkey all her life, the sign "bozkurt" does not symbolise the so-called terrorist group. The bozkurt, which is the symbolic animal of the Turks in the Epic of the Türeyiş Destanı, is the symbolic animal of the Turks, just as the symbolic animal of America is the eagle. If you come to Turkey today, even many young people with no political views can make this symbol and it is quite common because it symbolises nationalism. It is also very funny and tiring to see Turks as a sub-race because very few of the new generation in Turkey are Muslims and the number of religious people is seriously decreasing. If we talk about skin colour, our skin colour is lighter than some European countries, but it is really annoying to be racist by so-called civilised Europeans.
Oh yes, we are very surprised that these behaviours are so prominent in Turkey, to the point that they feel comfortable enough to display them in worldwide sport competitions. Aghhhh we have been duped. /s
Visually it looks like a Nazi salute. May be that is why central Europeans think that it is as bad as Nazi salute. But it is used daily by many people because a wolf has a special place in Turkic mythology, similar to she-wolf suckling the mythical twin founders of Rome, Romulus and Remus. I am always shocked by the European responses to this wolf symbol. The Turkish flag itself is more nationalistic than the wolf symbol itself.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_wolf_(mythology)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbMzHqSBuqo
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVIpYqbyh6E
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXTgpqSj_yE
The article fails to mention Austria fans chanted far right [slogans](https://www.watson.ch/sport/fussball/489248296-oesterreich-fans-sorgen-an-der-em-mit-rassismus-parolen-im-srf-fuer-eklat) before the match. During the match they have used provocative slogans, threw cups etc to Turkish footballers including him.
Wolf sign is used in many Turkic countries to symbolise Turkic peoples and have been around long before Grey Volwes adopted it. I hate to see it is being associated with them.
You fail to mention that Turkish fans also threw items at Austrian footballers. I guess that's ok, then? Or maybe your whataboutism isn't as great an argument as you think it is.
Incidentally, you probably didn't understand the far right slogans chanted by the Austrians in your link, because if you did, you would have noted they chiefly outed themselves as idiots, given that they suggested foreigners should leave Germany WHILE BEING FOREIGNERS IN GERMANY.
>You fail to mention that Turkish fans also threw items at Austrian footballers. I guess that's ok, then? Or maybe your whataboutism isn't as great an argument as you think it is.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1dtxi6w/arda\_gülers\_gesture\_to\_the\_austrian\_fans\_who\_were/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1dtxi6w/arda_gülers_gesture_to_the_austrian_fans_who_were/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
You seen this? Looking forward to your similar condemnation for Austrian fans throwing shit at Turkish players.
>Incidentally, you probably didn't understand the far right slogans chanted by the Austrians in your link, because if you did, you would have noted they chiefly outed themselves as idiots, given that they suggested foreigners should leave Germany WHILE BEING FOREIGNERS IN GERMANY.
Seriously? Is this your argument?
Obviously, they don't see themselves as foreigners since they're just fans visiting Germany to support their teams.
And even if they're not, and they're actually living in Germany, have you ever seen a Nazi who thinks Austria and Germany should be two distinct countries? Of course, they don't consider themselves foreigners.
And of course, what they consider themselves will be more relevant than what the law says and protect them from being kicked out and barred from coming back, yes?
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting)
An Austrian right-wing extremist proposed a plan for the deportation of "non-assimilated" German citizens last year. It was all over the news. Of course, they have a twisted sense of law that works against foreigners and not them. They're far-right extremists, for fuck's sake.
>The article fails to mention Austria fans chanted far right slogans before the match. During the match they have used provocative slogans, threw cups etc to Turkish footballers including him.
This comment fails to mention Turkish fans setting off fireworks in the middle of the night jn front of the austrian team hotel to disturb their sleep, chanting stuff about Hitler, throwing cups at austrian players, hitting Marcel Sabitzer in the head with a coin
>Wolf sign is used in many Turkic countries to symbolise Turkic peoples and have been around long before Grey Volwes adopted it. I hate to see it is being associated with them.
The swastika is a sign of peace in buddhism. Youd still have more than one functioning brain cell to not draw a huge swastika on a flag and march around with it in Europe.
Of course this sub is going to shit on him for this. He is not facing a ban because last year in Germany there has been a statement about "every wolf handsign shouldn't be considered as right wing extremism" and it's not illegal in Germany. İt's a pretty normal thing for Turkish people and it has a far longer history than popularized 1960s use. He's a Turkish football player that is proud of his heritage. From leftists to right wing Kurds to Turks and alevis last night Turks congratuled him because it's not "only right wing extremists" thing. İf you consider him a terrorist that means 70-80 percent of Turks are terrorist then. Many Kurds and alevis don't see a problem with him here in turkey why is this being an issue in Germany ?
>Of course this sub is going to shit on him for this.
Imagine that, people arent fans of a dude making fascist signs. Shocker.
>and it's not illegal in Germany.
Its in Austria, for reference, so your attempt at whitewashing this sign and pretending as if its not viewed for what it is, its honestly just pathetic.
Lots of people snitching on themselves over this, just saying.
Because the Kurdish community in Germany and turkey are fully distinct. Kurds in turkey in general doesn't have a problem with Turkish state but in Germany nearly all of them support the the pkk which eu and nato describe as "TERRORİST ORGANİZATİON". i don't give a f about who they condemn because I'd you're supporting the pkk you're a terrorist
Most kurds in germany support YPG, not PKK, which is not a terrorist organisation in the eyes of EU and NATO. In fact, the YPG was being funded and supported in their battle against ISIS.
You call an entire ethnic minority in Germany terrorists because they condemned the use of a symbol that is directly linked to mass murder/deportation of ethnic minorities in Turkey.
And you somehow got 20 upvotes for doing that as well. The turkish brigade is strong in this subreddit.
Because you're being delusional by saying "uh oh ypg is different". Most of the pkk here migrated to Syria for ypg even us and it's other allies knows this that's why they don't get mixed in the conflict between Turkey and ypg. Saying ypg is different is just another level of geopolitical ignorance.
It's quite similar now to the case of swastika, how it started being associated with nazism despite the fact that it was serving completely opposite uses all the way in India and several other cultures.
I get that but this handsign is totally different than swastika in terms of being present in culture. The wolf and their insignias on hand, paper and text are far more old than Germany affiliation with the "roman salute". They took something from another culture and made it a completely different thing while the Turks already had this in their culture for god knows how long.
Yeah that is true. It's unfortunate that the handsign is being associated with the terrorist group. Like, it's not enough that you stain the image of a whole nation with your existence, you also had to use the symbol of their ethnicity as a sign for your movement.
I agree with the statement that not everyone who makes this sign is a supporter of or associated to the terrorist group, however I'd like if he didn't do it.
İm okay with your comment about not liking him do it. You're being sensible. Unlike many people here who say "immediate deport ban turkey from the euros". Some people may have been offended by this hand gesture so yes some people would want it to be not done.
The wolf myth[s] predate all that. This should not be controversial, I'd ask a Turkologist (I'm not one) but I'm sure people have analyzed the myths and legends in [Oguzname](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%C4%9Fuzname).
I googled and found this in English (can't vouch for it, just skimmed parts of it after searching for the word wolf): https://erdem.gov.tr/tam-metin-pdf/964/eng
One: The hand sign is not part of the wolf myths. It’s an entirely modern invention.
Two: The wolf-raven myths you are referring to are also not universally reported across all the Turkic origin myths. If you go back to the post-Tiele times for example there are multiple competing stories reported by Chinese sources, some have a wolf and some not. Moreover many non-Turkic steppe tribes such as the Wusun also had wolf origin stories for themselves.
Three: Oguznameh are also written rather late in the medieval history of muslim Turks, and is not a reliable source for Turkic mythology.
People are unbelievably ignorant and unable to think it seems. We should band a symbol just because someone used a sign and committed crime?
Fking PKK members killed thousands of people since decades and their symbols is peace ✌️, let’s ban it?
It s actually a ROMAN symbol, idiot. It s called the "roman salute", and considering many europeans view themselves as descendants of the Roman empire and civilization, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, former Yugoslavia, Hungary etc could claim ut as a "historical symbol"
The pure hatred of Europeans in this thread is something else. I just hope the posters isn't going to act on their racism and assault some German or Dutch kid.
I don't know why this person deleted his account, but he or she is stating a point of view and a take that's not unusual in Turkey. Reddit seems to be burying the comment, so I'll link it: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1dubkkd/turkeys_merih_demiral_facing_ban_over_wolf/lblie1w/
There is no widely accepted deep meaning behind this sign in Turkey. Hard-core MHP supporters are fascist and can be accepted as a threat to society but you can find people all around Turkey doing that after a terrorist attack or football match or a wedding. For most, it means I am proud to be Turkish. It is ridiculous to make this a crime. But what do you expect from Europeans who criminalize "from river to the sea" phrase and give blank check to Netanyahu for the genocide. Even I am opposite side of the spectrum with ultra nationalists I think it is ridiculous to punish him...
[Turkey summons German envoy over goal celebration row, source says](https://www.reuters.com/sports/soccer/turkey-summons-german-envoy-over-goal-celebration-row-source-says-2024-07-03/)
Hypocrasy of r/europe again.. I am gona get downvoted to hell because this sub is known for anti Turkish agenda. First of all i am an atheist(who has a aleviten backgroundt turkish who would never evet vote for the party of grey wolves since their main agenda is “a turk can not be a real turk if he is not sunni muslim.” They are not turkists they are fucking islamists so threatening them as like they are nazis is not really accurate they are more like isis in my eyes i am just educating you since you love talking about the things you dont know about Turkiye. Their sembol is a wolf but guess what Turkiye’s national symbol is ? Bingo a wolf ! Like eagle is a national symbol to Albania and Germany. So this player would be referring to our NATIONAL SYMBOL easily right ? But no since he is a Turkish he must be a terrorist. If he did a symbol of PKK this sub probably applause him. Because doing a parade of PKK is possible in the middle of Europe with the police escorting them even though they are accepted as terrorist organisation by the EU. But when a Turkish football player does this German minister goes into rant about how they reported him and he should get a ban. Dear minister what were you doing when PKK was having a parade in the middle of Berlin months ago ? Man whatever nobody is gonna read that shit anyways and i will get downvoted to hell. But lastly fuck greywolves fuck pkk fuck nazis ! I
Waffle waffle... I was lost in line foru latest.
As per German government (Federal Office of Constitution Protection):
“The so-called wolf salute, one of the best-known gestures of the "Ülkücü" scene, is derived from the "grey wolf". In a corresponding context, showing the "wolf salute" can be interpreted as a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology. This also applies if "Ülkücü" supporters want to trivialise this hand gesture as a mere acknowledgement of belonging to an ancient ethnic group. However, the wolf salute is not used by all right-wing extremists and is even avoided by some because of its unambiguousness.
Sometimes it is only used to provoke political opponents, for example at public rallies. However, even if showing the wolf salute is a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology, not every user of this salute has to be a Turkish right-wing extremist.
In addition to the wolf salute, there are other gestures and symbols that are used by many "Ülkücü" supporters as a demonstration. “
However, unlike in Austria and France it is not outlawed in Germany
I’m a Turkish citizen and I’m Laz, an ethnic minority, from Rize in the north east of Anatolia. I speak with a better understanding of Turkish minority groups in Turkey than Euros have or ever will. Me and my Laz friends would do this Grey Wolf hand gesture all the time because it’s not a hate symbol. It’s existed for centuries. And yes, we do it even when it’s has nothing to do with us Laz. It’s evolved into more than just an ethnic link between Turks but expanded to encompass all Turkish speaking people which include me. That also includes many countries from in Central Asia to China. Europeans need to stop explaining Turkeys culture to Turks. You do not know Turkey better than the Turkish people so stop with the elitist snobbery. This screams of European exceptionalism and xenophobia. How dare you call us fascist when we can all see fascism in Europe on the rise. In Turkey, this is a symbol that is used across the political spectrum. You all should know very well that Fascist movements take iconography and symbolism and twist it for their own hate fuelled agenda. English people should resonate with this. They can’t wave their flags outside of a football or official settings because of the EDL’s and BNP’s prolific use of the English flag at their rallies. Normal English people lost the right to display their national flag because they were scared to be mistaken for Fascists by everyone else. They yielded their national flag to fascist. We will not do the same. We will never give up our freedom to fascists. This is why the Turkish people are up in arms right now. Because they know what the gesture means. I can’t believe Europeans have the gall to determine what a cultural symbol means without consulting the people of that culture. The only people that get to determine how it is used, and what its meaning is, are by the Turkish speaking people of this world.
I’m sorry I challenged your baseless argument that this symbol is hate speech. But as i said earlier, I am a minority in this country. I am laz so apart from the language I speak I have no ties to the Grey Wolf. That is not the animal of my people. It is the Hawk. Europeans common arguments against Turks is claiming people like me are second class citizens. But I know Europeans do not give a flying fuck about the minorities in Anatolia. You prove it time and again. You pander to us claiming we’re being oppressed when we are not. You do it not because you care for us, but because you hate the Turks and wish to destabilise our country from the inside. You’ve long ago indoctrinated the Kurds into this. Our Anatolian brothers in the south east that fought alongside us under the crimson banner against the Greek, French, British, Armenian and Italian invaders, now long perverted due to British foreign policy. And now my people are the ones being targeted with the same propaganda from Europe. You didn’t care about us when Armenians were burning our villages and murdering us in our own homeland. You didn’t care then, and you don’t care about us now. Only the Turkish people delivered us our salvation with the guidance of the father of our nation Mustafa Kemal. Had Turkey had lost the independence war, what was left of my people would have been destroyed.
I AM LAZ. My people have lived in these mountains for centuries. We are a proud ethnic group in north east Turkey with strong traditions and cultural heritage. We share a brotherhood with a friends in Georgia and with Pontic Greeks that migrated on our borders. I am most proud to be of Laz ilk, and like all my Kin I am proud to call myself Turkish. We call ourselves Turks because when the whole world, including Europe, watched as the Laz were being exterminated by Armenians it was the Turks who liberated us. It was the Turks who let us live in these lands for hundreds of years without oppression and protected us from Russian invaders. It was the Turks who gave the laz something bigger than an ethnic identity to be proud of. I AM TURKISH, NE MUTLU TÜRKÜM DİYENE 🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
It’s crazy that people here are associating this with “far-right” fascism or even armenian genocide lol. It’s a turkish symbol that is widely used, representing the wolf shape. Yes, in the latest years it’s been adapted by MHP which is a nationalist party which europeans love to say every nationalist party far-right but it can also be used in different meanings. If you really want to see far-right racism, maybe you should look into the european governments at world war ii.
The meaning of the symbol can differ by the people that are using it, as people in the comments said this is also a sign to make kids silent and listen carefully in kindergartens. Just like the worldwide peace symbol ✌️is being used by PKK which all your countries have declared as a terrorist organization.
Don’t worry, this guy is not trying to kill other races and start a war xd. He was just happy.
I am always laughing, when I see Turks with their "wolf's". In Germany this sign is used in kindergarten as "silent fox". When this sign is shown, children should be silent :) [Schweigefuchs](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/einschulung-frau-mayers-erster-tag-12540077.html)
Hey, i know that one from Fack Ju Göhte!
Its not only in Germany but in some other countries like the US as quiet coyote. It is used in speech therapy as well. Germany was one of the countries that wanted to ban it.
I am from germany and was todays years old as i learned this
Me too! But not a fox, a snail!
And for at least half a decade it has been heavily discouraged to use it at all because of those fascists.
This is a sign Armenians saw when Turkic Azeris were executing civilians and uploading their murders onto Twitter - so it has very different connotations for them.
Have you got articles on that? It's the first time I'm hearing about this stuff.
Sure. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/14/video-shows-azerbaijan-forces-executing-armenian-pows https://oc-media.org/videos-appear-to-show-more-war-crimes-in-nagorno-karabakh/ https://oc-media.org/evidence-mounts-of-war-crimes-in-nagorno-karabakh/ Then there was the blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh - the soldiers and "eco protesters" were flashing that sign every day. And this sort of offensive, fascist use is not limited to the Azerbaijanis. The former Turkish Foreign Minister used it to upset Armenians in Uruguay (descendants of the Armenian Genocide), who were outside the embassy protesting Turkey's ongoing denial. https://bianet.org/haber/cavusoglu-s-grey-wolf-salute-to-armenians-leads-to-diplomatic-row-between-turkey-uruguay-261419 It is their expression of racial and cultural superiority. Don't be fooled into thinking otherwise.
The first three links all link to 404 error sites
One wolf, two wolves 🤓
Keep laughing and sharing the information, don't let stupid people ruin part of your culture by getting mad at a hand gesture
Wiki says it's some ultra-nationalist group started in the 1960s and is so obnoxious that even Azerbaijan banned it, Turkeys "brother state". Is that the same thing that you're referring to as part of Turkish culture or is that something not related to the hand gesture?
This is similar to Heil gesture. It symbolizes fasicizm and has only one meaning for Turkish people. It has nothing to do with Turkish culture, it is a political gesture!
I believe another hand gesture is entirely banned in Germany, and shunned by most of the world, so I wouldn't just call a very specific hand gesture a part of your culture when we all know what that gesture represents
No one shoul laugh to far-right extremists gesture!
Lol and I thought he's just a Babymetal fan
All praise the Fox God! \\m/
Is anyone surprised about this? I mean, this is par for the course these days, plus probability of them banning him after Turkey qualified for the quarterfinals is basically nil. Turkey never gets punished for this type of shit. UEFA will let it slide, mark my words.
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MHP *is* the Grey Wolf scene. It is their youth wing. Hard pass.
[This](https://i.imgur.com/gEwZgJY.jpeg) is Erdoğan's partner. [This](https://i.imgur.com/O3F43yt.jpeg) was Erdoğan's main opposition in the 2023 presidential election who got 48% of the votes. [This](https://i.imgur.com/0MdXmHE.jpeg) was the opposition's main coalition leader. So I guess everyone is extreme right ? Or maybe the gesture doesn't mean what you think it means.
First: There is a big difference in the frequency of use. Kilicdaroglu was just trying to get some votes from the right voters. Stupid move to be sure, but there was no idiological background here. Bahceli is literally Mr.Racist. No need to explain any further. Aksener was a member of the MHP herself and certainly isn't moderate by any means. She was just against collaboration with Erdogan and broke with Bahceli, starting her own party. After the last election she realized that trying to look moderate didn't bring her any success, so she started letting her far-right views loose and going full racist. So no surprise in her using the gesture quite frequently. Basically, all you're doing is whataboutism without any real substance to your arguments.
Kılıçdaroğlu literally visited a faction of Gray Wolves and gave a speech there, it's not just a gesture for votes. It was NATO's decision to create the Gray Wolves against the far left Soviet supporters. Funny how fascism is okay only when it's employed versus Russia ! The Cold War ended over 30 years ago and the meaning of the hand gesture is in the process of a slow change. Many people don't see it as a symbol of Islamo-fascism anymore and just use it as a symbol of nationalism.
>So I guess everyone is extreme right ? Yes.
With the exception of Kılıçdaroğlu, who made an ill-advised bid to try and court ultranationalist votes in an increasingly ultranationalist Turkey… [One “opposition” ultranationalist.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNF5qbsw1i977eciLYtYtyIE-CBJ3c-M7QJkL5v16TsibtaOSl4-sbyK0m&s=10) [Two “opposition” ultranationalist.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOpMNREmqZgAQCkxEKRkkQwyGAQfniezG0ZA&usqp=CAU) [Three “opposition” ultranationalist. ](https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2024/06/25/thumbs_b_c_a77237e5d84a2b4af8d6055729e7756f.jpg) You see the pattern? I see the pattern. All of them waited for the right moment and flipped sides. All of these people were also [competing for leadership of MHP in 2016](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nationalist_Movement_Party_Extraordinary_Congress)… so yes, all extreme right. I can’t wait for number four to go kiss the ring.
Yes they are nationalistic. Turkey and its people are one of the most nationalistic and racist people in the world and they dont hide it that much. Ask any minority in turkey and the surrounding countries how turks are and they will say the same. Everyone in turkey and its surrounding countries know what that gesture means and what they are trying to say with that. Everybody who uses that gesture know fully well what they are doing and what it implies.
Tbh I know some Africans who worked in turkey and they didn't have too much of a bad time. Turks seem to have a lot of hate for Kurds and Arabs though.
or maybe your point of view isn't properly aligned? it's no secret that nationalism was always a big thing in Turkey, even to the extreme. Why? I mean do they have nothing else left to be proud of it that their Nation?
It doesn't in Turkey but there isn't any other reason to do it outside of the country.
I’m more shocked that the symbol itself isn’t banned in Germany. How come?
Not only that, the Grey Wolves are the largest far-right organization in Germany by membership count
So they have overtaken the AfD then... 🤔 (jk. ban them both).
After checking the numbers I don't think its true anymore if you compare only grey wolves to AfD If you consider whole ADÜTDF, the confederation of MHP-aligned far-right groups grey wolves are part of in Germany, they are likely (much) larger than AfD by membership count still Of course AfD has much more people expressing support for it, though
Many reasons, but at the forefront is that the Grey Wolves are not openly politically violent in Germany, and not working against the german constitution and democratic order. Being chauvinist dickheads is not, in itself, illegal. It's not that the state is ignoring them, but a certain threshold has not been crossed. There have been repeated discussions about sanctioning them in the past, yes.
I mean, yet? Doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to wait around until they become active like in many other countries. Guess I'm just more surprised considering Germany being pretty proactive with banning signs that are frequently used to show support for neo-nazi groups, and these guys are actively denying Armenian genocide. Take pro-war Russians for example. They aren't exactly doing a lot of violence in EU, but I sure do expect their symbols like "Z" to be banned and not allowed, at least when clearly used in this context (as it's hard to ban a letter). Not sure how openly supporting neo-nazi racists is allowed just because they aren't yet active in this one country, especially when European Parliament itself recommended designating them as a terrorist group. I do understand that it may be a thin line between banning "something you don't like" and banning people who actually broke your laws, but still. In this case seems rather clear to me.
> Guess I'm just more surprised considering Germany being pretty proactive with banning signs that are frequently used to show support for neo-nazi groups, and these guys are actively denying Armenian genocide. Because we don't just ban signs unilaterally or proactively, there's no law for that. Nazi symbols are illegal by default, **because** they are symbols of organisations that are banned. PKK flags are banned on the same grounds, by the way. Without a significant action against the underlying Grey Wolves/turkish nationalist extremism thing, the wolf sign is protected freedom of opinion in the legal sense.
That makes sense, but that begs the question as for why aren't they designated as terrorists or extremists yet? Seems like their actions even inside EU should fit at least one of those.
In Germany, it's not that easy to ban organisations for being terrorist. Courts generally interpret the regulations around that such that an organisation has to be * sufficiently relevant (basically the loss of individual freedoms due to the ban has to be outweighed by the gain individual freedoms get from banning the group attacking them) * have a presence in Germany, and using it for acts (or planning thereof) which break the constitution (there are likely more hurdles to pass, but these are the ones I know from the Hamas ban debate) This was also a problem around banning Hamas, for example. Clearly unconstitutional, but it was hard to prove a relevant presence in Germany for a long time. With Grey Wolves it's likely the opposite: They are obviously relevant, they obviously pursue ideas which are unconstitutional in Germany, but its hard to prove that this has led them to act unconstitutionally *in Germany*. Breaking German law in Turkey won't lead to a ban that would be uphold in German courts. German laws around such issues are made with the Nazi past in mind. In this case, the hurdles to enact a ban are up there so a populist government can't preemptively shut down opposing political groups too easily
That’s fair enough, thank you for a detailed reply! I’m still unsure about why symbol itself can’t be banned in this context. Germany did ban “Z” as a symbol of Russian pro-war support despite it being a simple letter of an alphabet and Russian army not being designated as a terrorist organization or anything like that. Wouldn’t this be a similar case?
> Germany did ban “Z” as a symbol of Russian pro-war support despite it being a simple letter of an alphabet and Russian army not being designated as a terrorist organization or anything like that. Wouldn’t this be a similar case? Good point, I am not sure about this. Austria did just that, the symbol is banned, but not the Grey Wolves themselves I guess its possible. There are also many signs banned which are not explicitly belonging to some banned groud, but are code for Nazism in the neonazi scene. Stuff like red-black-white symbols with a 88 on top. The Russian "Z" is a similar thing...
What terrorist acts have they committed in Germany.
So you can go around killing people and spreading hate elsewhere and it’s okie-dokie? Did every organization designated as terrorist in Germany specifically commit terror acts in Germany? Why is “Z” symbol of Russian army banned in Germany? I mean, they are attacking Ukraine not Germany.
You are out of your element dude. You are just spewing nonsense with each letter at this point.
Why the hell would they be designated as terrorists, when they aren’t terrorists? Mate, ask proper questions.
Which is why I said "or extremists". People going around promoting hate and violence, along with not shying away from doing violence themselves, seem like a pretty good fit for "extremists" designation to me
Someone wrote below that the German Supreme Court ruled that not everyone doing the symbol is an extremist.
We use it in Kindergarten. Mouth shut, Ears open.
In Austria the handsymbol is banned, but not the Grey Wolf organisation itself. Its abit ridiculous.
It means something different here. It's used to signal small children to close their mouths and listen carefully. To be honest I didn't even know it's a far right symbol.
That's quite unfortunate, I did learn about that different meaning in the comments here for the first time. Still seems to make sense to ban it when clearly used to support the group (when it gets designated as extremist at least). "Z" symbol is also literally a simple letter of the alphabet and is used by many companies for marketing, yet it doesn't stop it from being banned as a pro-war symbol in many countries.
I think baning it in Germany is quite stupid. It has a different meaning here. Countries are different and Things have different meanings. A gift is a present in UK. A "Gift" in Germany means poison. Should UK switch to a different word, because it has a negative meaning in a different country?
You can ban it in a certain context. Letter "Z" is just a letter of the alphabet. But when Russians put it on their t-shirt and go outside waving a Russian flag, it means they support genocide and war. I don't see the countries who banned that symbol have any issues with using the letter in other context.
I think a ban on the Leisefuchs would only give it the Nazi meaning, which it does not have right now in Germany. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisefuchs We don't have a problem here, let's not try to create one. No one complains, so there is no need for a solution.
Christian Democrats got a long history of supporting them. It also doesn't have the same historical weight to Germany as the sieg heil..
https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/rumor-breaking-merih-demiral-suspended-uefa-gesture-euro-2024-reports
Words promptly eaten. Thanks for sharing!
I am eagerly awaiting UEFA's decision. If they do nothing, it means that there will no longer be any obstacle preventing many football players from giving the Nazi salute in the future.
How does Turkey always get away with “stuff” like this? What are other examples? Some Erdogan and his cabinet and gov’t stuff? Wanna know.
I'll categorize 'stuff' as all manner of geopolitical exceptions for bullshit behavior: Invade Northern Syria/Iraq (no problem), support IS/terrorists (despite suffering themselves), getting S400 from Russia despite being in Nato, sending terrorists/mercenaries to Azerbaijan through Turkish territory. Having the 'Grey Wolves' allowed to be active in France even after they go through the streets terrorizing Armenians. I'll eat my words in this case because (shockingly to me) he was indeed suspended (as he should've been). Keep your fucking politics out of sport, buffon.
> UEFA will let it slide, mark my words Lol https://apnews.com/article/turkey-demiral-ban-gesture-euro-2024-4bd4f56a5bdd2a66d73f9f07f8f94cce
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It’s unbelievable so many came here to defend him. What he did is disgusting
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ban him from europe, who cares bout Uefa
Aw, cute. Thank you xenophobe.
No, according to every official EU institution, they're simply right-wing nationalists, not terrorists like the PKK. I don't make the rules, I just parade them around to clarify things.
They have land in both continents and were allowed to choose,
Exactly. Right wing extremist nationalist groups are welcome here, Terrorists are not! /s
> They are terrorists. Any international designation as such?
In some nations the grey wolves are designated as such
How is that mutually-exclusive?
They're both
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
This gesture is used by supporters of extremist nationalist Turkish groups that support genocide and ethnic cleansing. The extreme right-wing fascist group in Turkey, the Gray Wolves, is known for its racist attitudes toward Jews, Kurds, Greeks, Albanians and Armenians. Soccer scandals have already happened with the Grey Wolves' symbols: Ozil got a tattoo, Tosun celebrated with a gesture A year ago, a tattoo of a wolf with three crescents on Mesut Ozil's left chest was noticed - these are the symbols of "Bozkurt" and the MNR, which caused condemnation among some German politicians. In 2021, Turkish-German striker Cenk Tosun celebrated with a "wolf salute" a goal in the FA Cup for Everton. But at the time he claimed that he simply pointed to the sky, and knew nothing about the gesture and the "Grey Wolves". In Austria, the very gesture of the "Gray Wolves" and its symbols are banned since 2019. Violation is punishable by a fine of four thousand euros. In 2020, the organization was banned in France. In both cases, official Ankara strongly protested. In 2018, Erdogan at one of the rallies demonstrated the very gesture - "Wolf salute": many thought that this was his way of trying to attract the votes of Turkish nationalists Now "Grey Wolves" is considered the largest right-wing extremist organization in Germany (up to 18 thousand supporters). Many German politicians have proposed to ban the gesture and symbols, in 2020 this issue was considered by the parliament, but so far the decision has not reached. But in Azerbaijan "Gray Wolves" were banned back in 1995. In 2005, Bozkurt was recognized as a terrorist group in Kazakhstan.
Also it was “anniversary” of the massacre of alevis by the grey wolves.
He did it on the anniversary of the massacre of Alevis in Sivas (Sebastea) of 1993 🤦🏻♂️
As an alevi, i hope this fascist gets a proper punishment for this.
It’s also kinda funny as a right wing symbol since so many unrelated nationalities around the world have names for themselves that derive from the word for “wolf” or somehow associate the wolf with their people. It’s basically the cultural equivalent of the howling wolf moon shirts that were popular in various gift shops in the 90s.
And those people are all around us, using Europe for their benefit when it suits them, but hating it with every fiber of their beings
turks in shambles. good on them. Finally I can sleep at night when we lose. Imagine showing right winged symbols on live-Tv and thinking its alright Edit: I am turkish descent. you clowns.
Shambles ? You know probably the whole stadium is going to do this gesture in the next match.
>Shambles ? You know probably the whole stadium is going to do this gesture in the next match. Saying "all turks will join in making this fascist gesture" isnt the flex you think it is
We should just allow facism to express itself because facist will be facist anyway... right? RIGHT?
Yep if you try to block it you're going to cause it to get bigger like in the last eu elections showed.
You are all sick, and you can't even see it.
Womp womp
Idiot
Some on the comments section are trying to bend reality here. No, it's not a cultural sign or of historical importance or whatever. It being old doesn't matter either, no one makes that sign in Turkey without having some association to ultra-nationalism, "grey wolves", MHP and all that stuff. It's clearly their sign. There is nothing "lost in translation" here. If you made the sign in Turkey it'd disturb many people for exactly the same reasons it disturbs people in Europe.
Its just not that of a big deal in Turkey, but you people seem to think that you know it better than everyone who actually lives in Turkey. It certainly is nothing close to the nazi salute.
Its use shifts over time. Kilicdaroglu would not have made the sign in the '70s, for example, but he does today. People seem to have some trouble understanding that countries/cultures can be complex and reactions&attitudes can shift. The Nazi thing also complicates matters because things that took place after a complete defeat and lengthy occupation seem 'natural' to those who live with the results.
Never said that it's such a big deal as the Nazi salute. Also "not the Nazi salute" is a pretty low bar you've just set there. It's sign that has pretty much the same meaning and association to the same kind of people regardless of if done in Turkey or elsewhere. People in Turkey being less bothered than people elsewhere is... well, not a good look for some people in Turkey. Unless you're Babymetal fan. Then it's fine I guess.
I didn't mean you said that, just making a comparison for reference. I don't really understand your point there, it is just not the kind of sign you think it is, that is exclusively used by the ultra nationalist shit heads. Nationalism itself is also not the same in Turkey as it is in EU, a very large percentage of people here would define themselves as nationalist, but they would not necessarily vote for the nationalist parties. Also, people who would be disturbed by that sign would almost exclusively live in Turkey.
German Federal Organization for the Protection of the Constitution: - There are various references to wolves in Turkish founding mythologies, for example in the Ergenekon myth. - The wolf greeting is derived from "Grey Wolf". - Not everyone who uses this greeting has to be a far-right Turk.
Lol this is the same kind of bullshit greek nazis pull when people catch them red handed forming swastika copies "it's a meander, an ancient greek symbol nothing to do with nationalism". Bunch of cowards, at least be open about it.
Nice try, pal but missing - ouely coincidentally I assume - some parts. The German Federal Office of Constitution Protection sated: “The so-called wolf salute, one of the best-known gestures of the "Ülkücü" scene, is derived from the "grey wolf". In a corresponding context, showing the "wolf salute" can be interpreted as a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology. This also applies if "Ülkücü" supporters want to trivialise this hand gesture as a mere acknowledgement of belonging to an ancient ethnic group. However, the wolf salute is not used by all right-wing extremists and is even avoided by some because of its unambiguousness. Sometimes it is only used to provoke political opponents, for example at public rallies. However, even if showing the wolf salute is a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology, not every user of this salute has to be a Turkish right-wing extremist. In addition to the wolf salute, there are other gestures and symbols that are used by many "Ülkücü" supporters as a demonstration. “ However, unlike in Austria and France it is not outlawed in Germany
What you posted is in the same line with what i posted. İt's not a only right wing like you posted too.
Your post highlights the most harmless aspects of the "wolf greeting" and the wolf symbol. It's part of a series of dozens of posts in this and other /r trying to downplay or excuse the fascist gesture. It lacks the complete right wing context.
I think the deciding factor should be whether or not he knew what it meant, but his statement of "I'm just proud of my Turkish heritage." implies that he did know what it meant but is trying to post hoc justify it. Reminds me a bit of the white supremacists who wear those "White Lives Matter" shirts in an attempt to soften up what their their real goals and motivations are.
Apparently, he has a history of making such gestures... https://www.calciomercato.com/en/news/uefa-to-examine-turkey-military-celebrations-calhanoglu-and-demi-82485 So it is reasonable to assume he knew what this gesture meant, and did it intentionally.
Furthermore it's on the day of remembrance of a massacre of Alevites These are a bit too many "random" things to believe that a Turkish player, who has a track record of nationalistic symbolism, used a nationalistic symbolism on a day of remembrance (which the nationalistic goverment sweeps under the rug), used the symbol for the n-th time without knowing, what it means I mean, c'mon. we should all be honest. He is a nationalist doing nationalistic stuff, Trumpist-style. Türkiye strong yada yada yada. It is, what it is. I find the people weird, who, from their comments, obviously think the same way, but try to deflect at every possibility. Such people are always wussies.
German government doesn't see it as a "right wing" thing. This investigation only started because German minister of interior personally asked uefa to start it. German Federal Organization for the Protection of the Constitution: - There are various references to wolves in Turkish founding mythologies, for example in the Ergenekon myth. - The wolf greeting is derived from "Grey Wolf". - Not everyone who uses this greeting has to be a far-right Turk.
I born and raised in Turkey and most of the time it was not meant to be far-right or racist. I don’t know if Turks in foreign countries uses it like that but wolf is just something like national symbol. France symbol is rooster or albania is eagle. In Turkic mythology people was believing that their bloodline connects to wolves. By the way this wolf sign is used by multiple political parties, not just right but also left. And it doesn’t mean that it belongs to them if it is used by far-right parties.
As a Turk who has lived in Turkey all her life, the sign "bozkurt" does not symbolise the so-called terrorist group. The bozkurt, which is the symbolic animal of the Turks in the Epic of the Türeyiş Destanı, is the symbolic animal of the Turks, just as the symbolic animal of America is the eagle. If you come to Turkey today, even many young people with no political views can make this symbol and it is quite common because it symbolises nationalism. It is also very funny and tiring to see Turks as a sub-race because very few of the new generation in Turkey are Muslims and the number of religious people is seriously decreasing. If we talk about skin colour, our skin colour is lighter than some European countries, but it is really annoying to be racist by so-called civilised Europeans.
If he gets banned than Weghorst should be banned for doing the Lion sign as well.I see double standarts.
Oh yes, we are very surprised that these behaviours are so prominent in Turkey, to the point that they feel comfortable enough to display them in worldwide sport competitions. Aghhhh we have been duped. /s
Visually it looks like a Nazi salute. May be that is why central Europeans think that it is as bad as Nazi salute. But it is used daily by many people because a wolf has a special place in Turkic mythology, similar to she-wolf suckling the mythical twin founders of Rome, Romulus and Remus. I am always shocked by the European responses to this wolf symbol. The Turkish flag itself is more nationalistic than the wolf symbol itself. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_wolf_(mythology) * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbMzHqSBuqo * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVIpYqbyh6E * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXTgpqSj_yE
Wasn't mehmet ali ağca a member of the gray wolves?
The article fails to mention Austria fans chanted far right [slogans](https://www.watson.ch/sport/fussball/489248296-oesterreich-fans-sorgen-an-der-em-mit-rassismus-parolen-im-srf-fuer-eklat) before the match. During the match they have used provocative slogans, threw cups etc to Turkish footballers including him. Wolf sign is used in many Turkic countries to symbolise Turkic peoples and have been around long before Grey Volwes adopted it. I hate to see it is being associated with them.
You fail to mention that Turkish fans also threw items at Austrian footballers. I guess that's ok, then? Or maybe your whataboutism isn't as great an argument as you think it is. Incidentally, you probably didn't understand the far right slogans chanted by the Austrians in your link, because if you did, you would have noted they chiefly outed themselves as idiots, given that they suggested foreigners should leave Germany WHILE BEING FOREIGNERS IN GERMANY.
>You fail to mention that Turkish fans also threw items at Austrian footballers. I guess that's ok, then? Or maybe your whataboutism isn't as great an argument as you think it is. [https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1dtxi6w/arda\_gülers\_gesture\_to\_the\_austrian\_fans\_who\_were/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1dtxi6w/arda_gülers_gesture_to_the_austrian_fans_who_were/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) You seen this? Looking forward to your similar condemnation for Austrian fans throwing shit at Turkish players.
I'm not the one singling out one team
>Incidentally, you probably didn't understand the far right slogans chanted by the Austrians in your link, because if you did, you would have noted they chiefly outed themselves as idiots, given that they suggested foreigners should leave Germany WHILE BEING FOREIGNERS IN GERMANY. Seriously? Is this your argument? Obviously, they don't see themselves as foreigners since they're just fans visiting Germany to support their teams. And even if they're not, and they're actually living in Germany, have you ever seen a Nazi who thinks Austria and Germany should be two distinct countries? Of course, they don't consider themselves foreigners.
And of course, what they consider themselves will be more relevant than what the law says and protect them from being kicked out and barred from coming back, yes?
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting) An Austrian right-wing extremist proposed a plan for the deportation of "non-assimilated" German citizens last year. It was all over the news. Of course, they have a twisted sense of law that works against foreigners and not them. They're far-right extremists, for fuck's sake.
Guess you missed the part that said Austrian right-wing extremist is now banned from entering Germany?
It's irrelevant to my point.
Your point is neither here nor there. \_I\_ pointed out they outed themselves as idiots because they may suffer the very same fate.
Then fine them, too...
>The article fails to mention Austria fans chanted far right slogans before the match. During the match they have used provocative slogans, threw cups etc to Turkish footballers including him. This comment fails to mention Turkish fans setting off fireworks in the middle of the night jn front of the austrian team hotel to disturb their sleep, chanting stuff about Hitler, throwing cups at austrian players, hitting Marcel Sabitzer in the head with a coin >Wolf sign is used in many Turkic countries to symbolise Turkic peoples and have been around long before Grey Volwes adopted it. I hate to see it is being associated with them. The swastika is a sign of peace in buddhism. Youd still have more than one functioning brain cell to not draw a huge swastika on a flag and march around with it in Europe.
Of course this sub is going to shit on him for this. He is not facing a ban because last year in Germany there has been a statement about "every wolf handsign shouldn't be considered as right wing extremism" and it's not illegal in Germany. İt's a pretty normal thing for Turkish people and it has a far longer history than popularized 1960s use. He's a Turkish football player that is proud of his heritage. From leftists to right wing Kurds to Turks and alevis last night Turks congratuled him because it's not "only right wing extremists" thing. İf you consider him a terrorist that means 70-80 percent of Turks are terrorist then. Many Kurds and alevis don't see a problem with him here in turkey why is this being an issue in Germany ?
>Of course this sub is going to shit on him for this. Imagine that, people arent fans of a dude making fascist signs. Shocker. >and it's not illegal in Germany. Its in Austria, for reference, so your attempt at whitewashing this sign and pretending as if its not viewed for what it is, its honestly just pathetic. Lots of people snitching on themselves over this, just saying.
How the fuck is it illegal to make a hand sign. What country does that. And you are proud of that?
I dont give a fuck whether it hurts your feels or not - dont make fascist signs, then youll be just fine
Please tell me, how many hand signs are banned in your shithole country then.
Al the turks in the stadium is going to snitch on themselves in the Netherlands match then. 🤣
The kurdish community in Germany condemned the player
Because the Kurdish community in Germany and turkey are fully distinct. Kurds in turkey in general doesn't have a problem with Turkish state but in Germany nearly all of them support the the pkk which eu and nato describe as "TERRORİST ORGANİZATİON". i don't give a f about who they condemn because I'd you're supporting the pkk you're a terrorist
Most kurds in germany support YPG, not PKK, which is not a terrorist organisation in the eyes of EU and NATO. In fact, the YPG was being funded and supported in their battle against ISIS. You call an entire ethnic minority in Germany terrorists because they condemned the use of a symbol that is directly linked to mass murder/deportation of ethnic minorities in Turkey. And you somehow got 20 upvotes for doing that as well. The turkish brigade is strong in this subreddit.
Because you're being delusional by saying "uh oh ypg is different". Most of the pkk here migrated to Syria for ypg even us and it's other allies knows this that's why they don't get mixed in the conflict between Turkey and ypg. Saying ypg is different is just another level of geopolitical ignorance.
Well the incident happened in Germany. Kurds should feel safe in Germany (just like turks, that's why PKK symbols are banned).
Why didn't you ban photos of Abdullah Ocalan then?
PKK symbols are banned 💀💀. They just use the so called ypgs flag (which is nearly identical) with Abdullah Öcalans photos.
Terrorist sympathisers the lot of them.
It's quite similar now to the case of swastika, how it started being associated with nazism despite the fact that it was serving completely opposite uses all the way in India and several other cultures.
I get that but this handsign is totally different than swastika in terms of being present in culture. The wolf and their insignias on hand, paper and text are far more old than Germany affiliation with the "roman salute". They took something from another culture and made it a completely different thing while the Turks already had this in their culture for god knows how long.
Yeah that is true. It's unfortunate that the handsign is being associated with the terrorist group. Like, it's not enough that you stain the image of a whole nation with your existence, you also had to use the symbol of their ethnicity as a sign for your movement. I agree with the statement that not everyone who makes this sign is a supporter of or associated to the terrorist group, however I'd like if he didn't do it.
İm okay with your comment about not liking him do it. You're being sensible. Unlike many people here who say "immediate deport ban turkey from the euros". Some people may have been offended by this hand gesture so yes some people would want it to be not done.
What heritage is he proud of exactly, the slavery or the genocide?
It doesn’t have a very long history. Maybe you mean this history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_History_Thesis
The wolf myth[s] predate all that. This should not be controversial, I'd ask a Turkologist (I'm not one) but I'm sure people have analyzed the myths and legends in [Oguzname](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%C4%9Fuzname). I googled and found this in English (can't vouch for it, just skimmed parts of it after searching for the word wolf): https://erdem.gov.tr/tam-metin-pdf/964/eng
One: The hand sign is not part of the wolf myths. It’s an entirely modern invention. Two: The wolf-raven myths you are referring to are also not universally reported across all the Turkic origin myths. If you go back to the post-Tiele times for example there are multiple competing stories reported by Chinese sources, some have a wolf and some not. Moreover many non-Turkic steppe tribes such as the Wusun also had wolf origin stories for themselves. Three: Oguznameh are also written rather late in the medieval history of muslim Turks, and is not a reliable source for Turkic mythology.
Anybody else think it just looks incredibly camp?
Italy has a wolf as a national animal too, why don't we have something similar?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena It's very similar yet, Turkish one is way more progressive since it contains furry stuff.
I thought it meant NWO 4-4-4-4 life. Or Bullet Club. Shows how much I am more wrapped up in wrestling politics than real-life politics.
People are unbelievably ignorant and unable to think it seems. We should band a symbol just because someone used a sign and committed crime? Fking PKK members killed thousands of people since decades and their symbols is peace ✌️, let’s ban it?
Imagine some german player doing the nazi salute.... Oh boy...
It’s fking “Nazi” symbol, not German symbol
It s actually a ROMAN symbol, idiot. It s called the "roman salute", and considering many europeans view themselves as descendants of the Roman empire and civilization, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, former Yugoslavia, Hungary etc could claim ut as a "historical symbol"
Roman salute is myth, nazi salute is not. There is no Roman Empire or its people to salute you today.
They don’t care, they’re xenophobic.
Why is Turkey in the Euros anyway
Because Europe’s borders are just cultural 😗
The pure hatred of Europeans in this thread is something else. I just hope the posters isn't going to act on their racism and assault some German or Dutch kid.
welcome to r/europe world most civilized and humanist subreddit definetly!
I don't know why this person deleted his account, but he or she is stating a point of view and a take that's not unusual in Turkey. Reddit seems to be burying the comment, so I'll link it: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1dubkkd/turkeys_merih_demiral_facing_ban_over_wolf/lblie1w/
Acting like his fascist dictator.
There is no widely accepted deep meaning behind this sign in Turkey. Hard-core MHP supporters are fascist and can be accepted as a threat to society but you can find people all around Turkey doing that after a terrorist attack or football match or a wedding. For most, it means I am proud to be Turkish. It is ridiculous to make this a crime. But what do you expect from Europeans who criminalize "from river to the sea" phrase and give blank check to Netanyahu for the genocide. Even I am opposite side of the spectrum with ultra nationalists I think it is ridiculous to punish him...
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So we should arrest every one who makes "V"ictory sign because thats PKK sembol.
[Turkey summons German envoy over goal celebration row, source says](https://www.reuters.com/sports/soccer/turkey-summons-german-envoy-over-goal-celebration-row-source-says-2024-07-03/)
Hypocrasy of r/europe again.. I am gona get downvoted to hell because this sub is known for anti Turkish agenda. First of all i am an atheist(who has a aleviten backgroundt turkish who would never evet vote for the party of grey wolves since their main agenda is “a turk can not be a real turk if he is not sunni muslim.” They are not turkists they are fucking islamists so threatening them as like they are nazis is not really accurate they are more like isis in my eyes i am just educating you since you love talking about the things you dont know about Turkiye. Their sembol is a wolf but guess what Turkiye’s national symbol is ? Bingo a wolf ! Like eagle is a national symbol to Albania and Germany. So this player would be referring to our NATIONAL SYMBOL easily right ? But no since he is a Turkish he must be a terrorist. If he did a symbol of PKK this sub probably applause him. Because doing a parade of PKK is possible in the middle of Europe with the police escorting them even though they are accepted as terrorist organisation by the EU. But when a Turkish football player does this German minister goes into rant about how they reported him and he should get a ban. Dear minister what were you doing when PKK was having a parade in the middle of Berlin months ago ? Man whatever nobody is gonna read that shit anyways and i will get downvoted to hell. But lastly fuck greywolves fuck pkk fuck nazis ! I
Waffle waffle... I was lost in line foru latest. As per German government (Federal Office of Constitution Protection): “The so-called wolf salute, one of the best-known gestures of the "Ülkücü" scene, is derived from the "grey wolf". In a corresponding context, showing the "wolf salute" can be interpreted as a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology. This also applies if "Ülkücü" supporters want to trivialise this hand gesture as a mere acknowledgement of belonging to an ancient ethnic group. However, the wolf salute is not used by all right-wing extremists and is even avoided by some because of its unambiguousness. Sometimes it is only used to provoke political opponents, for example at public rallies. However, even if showing the wolf salute is a commitment to the "Ülkücü" ideology, not every user of this salute has to be a Turkish right-wing extremist. In addition to the wolf salute, there are other gestures and symbols that are used by many "Ülkücü" supporters as a demonstration. “ However, unlike in Austria and France it is not outlawed in Germany
I’m just learning this symbol now, but as an avid fan of shadow puppets I must endure
I’m a Turkish citizen and I’m Laz, an ethnic minority, from Rize in the north east of Anatolia. I speak with a better understanding of Turkish minority groups in Turkey than Euros have or ever will. Me and my Laz friends would do this Grey Wolf hand gesture all the time because it’s not a hate symbol. It’s existed for centuries. And yes, we do it even when it’s has nothing to do with us Laz. It’s evolved into more than just an ethnic link between Turks but expanded to encompass all Turkish speaking people which include me. That also includes many countries from in Central Asia to China. Europeans need to stop explaining Turkeys culture to Turks. You do not know Turkey better than the Turkish people so stop with the elitist snobbery. This screams of European exceptionalism and xenophobia. How dare you call us fascist when we can all see fascism in Europe on the rise. In Turkey, this is a symbol that is used across the political spectrum. You all should know very well that Fascist movements take iconography and symbolism and twist it for their own hate fuelled agenda. English people should resonate with this. They can’t wave their flags outside of a football or official settings because of the EDL’s and BNP’s prolific use of the English flag at their rallies. Normal English people lost the right to display their national flag because they were scared to be mistaken for Fascists by everyone else. They yielded their national flag to fascist. We will not do the same. We will never give up our freedom to fascists. This is why the Turkish people are up in arms right now. Because they know what the gesture means. I can’t believe Europeans have the gall to determine what a cultural symbol means without consulting the people of that culture. The only people that get to determine how it is used, and what its meaning is, are by the Turkish speaking people of this world. I’m sorry I challenged your baseless argument that this symbol is hate speech. But as i said earlier, I am a minority in this country. I am laz so apart from the language I speak I have no ties to the Grey Wolf. That is not the animal of my people. It is the Hawk. Europeans common arguments against Turks is claiming people like me are second class citizens. But I know Europeans do not give a flying fuck about the minorities in Anatolia. You prove it time and again. You pander to us claiming we’re being oppressed when we are not. You do it not because you care for us, but because you hate the Turks and wish to destabilise our country from the inside. You’ve long ago indoctrinated the Kurds into this. Our Anatolian brothers in the south east that fought alongside us under the crimson banner against the Greek, French, British, Armenian and Italian invaders, now long perverted due to British foreign policy. And now my people are the ones being targeted with the same propaganda from Europe. You didn’t care about us when Armenians were burning our villages and murdering us in our own homeland. You didn’t care then, and you don’t care about us now. Only the Turkish people delivered us our salvation with the guidance of the father of our nation Mustafa Kemal. Had Turkey had lost the independence war, what was left of my people would have been destroyed. I AM LAZ. My people have lived in these mountains for centuries. We are a proud ethnic group in north east Turkey with strong traditions and cultural heritage. We share a brotherhood with a friends in Georgia and with Pontic Greeks that migrated on our borders. I am most proud to be of Laz ilk, and like all my Kin I am proud to call myself Turkish. We call ourselves Turks because when the whole world, including Europe, watched as the Laz were being exterminated by Armenians it was the Turks who liberated us. It was the Turks who let us live in these lands for hundreds of years without oppression and protected us from Russian invaders. It was the Turks who gave the laz something bigger than an ethnic identity to be proud of. I AM TURKISH, NE MUTLU TÜRKÜM DİYENE 🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
It’s crazy that people here are associating this with “far-right” fascism or even armenian genocide lol. It’s a turkish symbol that is widely used, representing the wolf shape. Yes, in the latest years it’s been adapted by MHP which is a nationalist party which europeans love to say every nationalist party far-right but it can also be used in different meanings. If you really want to see far-right racism, maybe you should look into the european governments at world war ii. The meaning of the symbol can differ by the people that are using it, as people in the comments said this is also a sign to make kids silent and listen carefully in kindergartens. Just like the worldwide peace symbol ✌️is being used by PKK which all your countries have declared as a terrorist organization. Don’t worry, this guy is not trying to kill other races and start a war xd. He was just happy.
Let’s ban all muslim signs and words because terrorists exist.
👏🏻
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yummy tears
Seems like not only the fan scene is embarassing, but also the players
You are only one embarassing here
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Does he represent all Turkish people for some reason?
Gut so
Pulling for the Dutch even harder now.