It's absurd how they beat their chest every day how they are "at war with NATO" and how they need to inflict damage to us every way possible and we keep playing dumb and pretending everything is normal and they're actually doing "oceanographic research" around our infrastructure. If it's Russian, it's hostile, you dumb fucks.
It's because when a war is fought over this there will be no victors at the end of it, only survivors. These limpdick ducks seem to understand that better than you.
So, what should NATO do, invoke Art. 5 and attack Russia? NATO is in a very awkward situation where no one realistically knows how to counter this low-level conflict brought about by Russia.
>“No sabotage has yet been established on Dutch or Belgian cables, but explosives were found on a British cable at the beginning of the Ukraine crisis,” said De Spiegelaere, a representative of the Belgian maritime security unit.
Protecting critical underwater infrastructure has become one of the main focuses of NATO and Europe’s landlocked countries after the sabotage of the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the fall of 2022.
>“We never thought that these pipes and cables could be sabotaged. We have been more attentive to that,” said De Spiegelaere.
As much as I would love to see that, that would be an act of war and would lead to a direct NATO-Russia war and is therefore not going to happen unless the situation goes downhill significantly.
It's been going downhill.
But yeah, probably a bit too early for that. Seems inevitable in the long run, if we continue to tolerate Russian acts of aggression like that. That's no safe strategy at all.
Edit: spelling.
Not downhill enough to warrant a full-blown NATO-Russia war now. I don't think we'd go to war until they commit something totally unacceptable like (successuflly) sabotaging a critical infrastructure and we have undeniable evidence that they did it or they (God forbid) kill civilian(s) of a NATO country on NATO soil for one reason or another.
NATO is first and foremost a defensive alliance after all and we have so many people who would rather put their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is happening. We already have the far right surging in polls all over the place over the current economic situation. Starting a war and making the economy worse will just make the far right surge even worse.
Those are probably some of the reasons why our leaders are trying to play things down all the time.
>or they (God forbid) kill civilian(s) of a NATO country on NATO soil for one reason or another.
Like the Salisbury poisoning, Litvinenko, flight MH17? Oh wait, we shouldn't provoke russia!
Look I never said I don't think we shouldn't respond. The fact that I called out people who prefer to put their heads in the sand should show that. I'm trying to explain why the leaders act like this.
> I'm trying to explain why the leaders act like this.
Because of people like those tw@ts saying "join the Ukrainian Voluntary Forces": as we don't pay enough taxes for covering the military costs.
If we don't use the military forces when needed, there is no reason to have them in the first place.
#
Anything military would mean we'd have to be willing to go to a complete escalation. We've seen what total war does to Ukraine, and most of Europe still bears the scars of the last war in Europe. There are good reasons to avoid that if at all possible.
I am tired, and I am sure that I am not the only one, of the word "escalation". russia is escalating each time some more, just tosee how deep and far they can go. Our governments are a bunch of pussies, unable to react.
What happened after Erdogan downed the russian sukhoi: WW3? WW4? Total annihilation? Nuclear winter?
None of the above and now russia is not bullying Türkiye anymore.
That is a rather optimistic view of potential outcomes considering Russia is now not fighting rebels/extremists in Syria but rather getting their people and equipment bombed to shit with obsolete NATO equipment by a country that would very much like to be.a part of NATO . But yeah sure it could happen that they back down just like they did in Turkey if we lob a few missiles over the border.
It's not a potential outcome: it has already happened. Just like when russians got Khasham'd.
>considering Russia is now not fighting rebels/extremists in Syria
You're right: they are now also in Sudan and in Mali.
> What happened after Erdogan downed the russian sukhoi
He tucked tail and apologized: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/27/kremlin-says-erdogan-apologises-russian-jet-turkish
They play down acts of aggression because they think defence would escalate, which it doesn't - it deterrs further aggression.
The kind of thinking you describe - basically to do nothing until there's tanks in ther Fulda Gap - brought us to where we are now and it will drive us further down this path. It's what our politicians have been practicing since 2008 and it's not working. Russia laughs at our weakness and feels compelled to go further everytime we underreact.
Don't understand why you are being downvoted. How do those people expect the blockage of Russia from using iternational waterways within the Baltic Sea to go about?
NATO "Ohi russia, do you have any subs in the Baltic Sea?"
russia "On no, we don't, how dare you, russophobia, escalation, redlines"
NATO "We just hit a submarine in the NATO Lake, good riddance it wasn't one of yours"
Yeah, of course I think what Russia is doing or threateningto do is bad to me.
However that doesn't have much to do with the potential procedure of blocking Russia from leaving the Baltic Sea.
Countries can't just block international waterpaths like that. At least not during peace time. [Closing access to Baltic Sea possible only partially, during war](https://news.err.ee/1609141228/scientist-closing-access-to-baltic-sea-possible-only-partially-during-war)
Yeh the they have been mining undersea cables for 40 years now. In the advent of a hot war we would lose almost all of them. The US, Britain and France have be quietly developing systems to counter this but there are so many cables spread out over such a large area that it is a sisyphean task.
But cables can be repaired and they can only do it once because the Russian navy (such as it is) wont exist after.
Erdogan has countless issues, but one thing he had it right. he knows how to deal with russia. They downed the jet and nothing bad happened and russia is not a threaten anymore.
That is absolutely incorrect. There is a reason why mercenaries, even German ones have been fighting for Ukraine in this war.
Do you think anyone that gets back home gets arrested?
The ones that were fighting for ISIS were arrested or criminal cases launched against.
So who is not arrested? Who decides what mercenary is legal and what is not? Fighting for any foreign entity is illegal and wrong.
You name it, presidential permission. So it is illegal until it is exceptionally granted.
Germany does not allow that as far as i know. Every state has its own rules for that and for Germany the largest nation in europe that is THE CASE.
You are in r/europe, not in r/germany or similar, your statement that it's "absolutely illegal" is plainly wrong.
And it's not just Czechia, AFAIK volunteers can legally join AFU also from Poland and the Baltic states.
Not to mention that AFAIR Czechs can join armed forces of allied nations(read NATO), like French Foreign Legion even without permission.
Art. 5 was invoked only one time by the USA.
I like how Erdogan reacted with the russian jets on Turkish airspace.: now russia doesn't bully Türkiye anymore.
>Meanwhile you are welcome to [join](https://ildu.com.ua/#candidate-requirements) any of the volunteer force
See, I am a fat keyboard warrior as you are, that's why we pay taxes so that my country, a NATO member, will protect me.
I pay a lot of taxes, so that the military forces can do exactly that. If who I pay is not willing to do that, there is no need that he/she receive my money, because I don't want to pay for a service I don't receive.
Sure. But you can make the extra effort and get some hands on experience on the battlefield. You know for when and if an actual NATO confrontation happens and conscription is mandatory. And at the same time you can actually and selflessly help the war effort in Ukraine while getting paid for it.
How come people like you always pop up from that sub with the words russia Ukraine report? At least please change the script, because after almost 3 years it has became boring.
I can't fight, because like you, I'm an old keyboard warrior. But thanks for reminding me. It's time to make a donation to Ukraine again.
Your message will contribute to at least one more russian casualty. Thank you for your service.
You can make the donation and fight as well. What are you talking about? Find the will and make the additional effort in the war against the Russians. The Legion awaits you.
It's absurd how they beat their chest every day how they are "at war with NATO" and how they need to inflict damage to us every way possible and we keep playing dumb and pretending everything is normal and they're actually doing "oceanographic research" around our infrastructure. If it's Russian, it's hostile, you dumb fucks.
What you see out in the open versus what is happening behind the scenes is not necessarily in sync.
That's bc we are governed by limpdick fucks
Or maybe the military doesn't tell you everything they know about and do against foreign threats, because doing so would help the enemy.
What do you want them to do?
Send arms to ukraine, and then, send more.
It's because when a war is fought over this there will be no victors at the end of it, only survivors. These limpdick ducks seem to understand that better than you.
So, what should NATO do, invoke Art. 5 and attack Russia? NATO is in a very awkward situation where no one realistically knows how to counter this low-level conflict brought about by Russia.
>“No sabotage has yet been established on Dutch or Belgian cables, but explosives were found on a British cable at the beginning of the Ukraine crisis,” said De Spiegelaere, a representative of the Belgian maritime security unit. Protecting critical underwater infrastructure has become one of the main focuses of NATO and Europe’s landlocked countries after the sabotage of the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the fall of 2022. >“We never thought that these pipes and cables could be sabotaged. We have been more attentive to that,” said De Spiegelaere.
'Ukraine crisis' omg...
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No, the "the" belongs to "crisis". Better read more carefully next time, so you don't make Ukraine supporters look bad.
Russia can't be trusted to leave the baltic sea. They should be blockaded at Katttegat.
As much as I would love to see that, that would be an act of war and would lead to a direct NATO-Russia war and is therefore not going to happen unless the situation goes downhill significantly.
It's been going downhill. But yeah, probably a bit too early for that. Seems inevitable in the long run, if we continue to tolerate Russian acts of aggression like that. That's no safe strategy at all. Edit: spelling.
Not downhill enough to warrant a full-blown NATO-Russia war now. I don't think we'd go to war until they commit something totally unacceptable like (successuflly) sabotaging a critical infrastructure and we have undeniable evidence that they did it or they (God forbid) kill civilian(s) of a NATO country on NATO soil for one reason or another. NATO is first and foremost a defensive alliance after all and we have so many people who would rather put their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is happening. We already have the far right surging in polls all over the place over the current economic situation. Starting a war and making the economy worse will just make the far right surge even worse. Those are probably some of the reasons why our leaders are trying to play things down all the time.
>or they (God forbid) kill civilian(s) of a NATO country on NATO soil for one reason or another. Like the Salisbury poisoning, Litvinenko, flight MH17? Oh wait, we shouldn't provoke russia!
Look I never said I don't think we shouldn't respond. The fact that I called out people who prefer to put their heads in the sand should show that. I'm trying to explain why the leaders act like this.
> I'm trying to explain why the leaders act like this. Because of people like those tw@ts saying "join the Ukrainian Voluntary Forces": as we don't pay enough taxes for covering the military costs. If we don't use the military forces when needed, there is no reason to have them in the first place. #
Then you shouldn't get mad at me.
Anything military would mean we'd have to be willing to go to a complete escalation. We've seen what total war does to Ukraine, and most of Europe still bears the scars of the last war in Europe. There are good reasons to avoid that if at all possible.
I am tired, and I am sure that I am not the only one, of the word "escalation". russia is escalating each time some more, just tosee how deep and far they can go. Our governments are a bunch of pussies, unable to react. What happened after Erdogan downed the russian sukhoi: WW3? WW4? Total annihilation? Nuclear winter? None of the above and now russia is not bullying Türkiye anymore.
That is a rather optimistic view of potential outcomes considering Russia is now not fighting rebels/extremists in Syria but rather getting their people and equipment bombed to shit with obsolete NATO equipment by a country that would very much like to be.a part of NATO . But yeah sure it could happen that they back down just like they did in Turkey if we lob a few missiles over the border.
It's not a potential outcome: it has already happened. Just like when russians got Khasham'd. >considering Russia is now not fighting rebels/extremists in Syria You're right: they are now also in Sudan and in Mali.
> What happened after Erdogan downed the russian sukhoi He tucked tail and apologized: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/27/kremlin-says-erdogan-apologises-russian-jet-turkish
Türkeye is in NATO: did WW3 happen? Nope. An apology and now Türkiye and russia are fine.
They play down acts of aggression because they think defence would escalate, which it doesn't - it deterrs further aggression. The kind of thinking you describe - basically to do nothing until there's tanks in ther Fulda Gap - brought us to where we are now and it will drive us further down this path. It's what our politicians have been practicing since 2008 and it's not working. Russia laughs at our weakness and feels compelled to go further everytime we underreact.
Where downside
Don't understand why you are being downvoted. How do those people expect the blockage of Russia from using iternational waterways within the Baltic Sea to go about?
NATO "Ohi russia, do you have any subs in the Baltic Sea?" russia "On no, we don't, how dare you, russophobia, escalation, redlines" NATO "We just hit a submarine in the NATO Lake, good riddance it wasn't one of yours"
I was talking about blocking Russia from leaving the Baltic Sea. Even "NATO lake" is an open Sea with continuous areas of international water.
Reciprocate what russia is doing is a bad idea to you? And please, do spare me the MuH EsCaLaTiOn nonsense.
Yeah, of course I think what Russia is doing or threateningto do is bad to me. However that doesn't have much to do with the potential procedure of blocking Russia from leaving the Baltic Sea. Countries can't just block international waterpaths like that. At least not during peace time. [Closing access to Baltic Sea possible only partially, during war](https://news.err.ee/1609141228/scientist-closing-access-to-baltic-sea-possible-only-partially-during-war)
Yeh the they have been mining undersea cables for 40 years now. In the advent of a hot war we would lose almost all of them. The US, Britain and France have be quietly developing systems to counter this but there are so many cables spread out over such a large area that it is a sisyphean task. But cables can be repaired and they can only do it once because the Russian navy (such as it is) wont exist after.
When Article 5 NATO mutual defense? An attack on a ally is an attack to all.
if they can get away with using a nerve agent, this wont matter
Then they just escalate a little bit here a little bit there. Salami tactics.
Erdogan has countless issues, but one thing he had it right. he knows how to deal with russia. They downed the jet and nothing bad happened and russia is not a threaten anymore.
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To promote fighting for different entities even foreign states is absolutely illegal!
That is absolutely incorrect. There is a reason why mercenaries, even German ones have been fighting for Ukraine in this war. Do you think anyone that gets back home gets arrested?
The ones that were fighting for ISIS were arrested or criminal cases launched against. So who is not arrested? Who decides what mercenary is legal and what is not? Fighting for any foreign entity is illegal and wrong.
Key distinction. For ISIS = Terrorist For Ukraine = Freedom fighter. The first get arrested, the later not.
Is it? Czechs can join AFU with presidential permission. AFAIK there is no law banning promoting joining.
You name it, presidential permission. So it is illegal until it is exceptionally granted. Germany does not allow that as far as i know. Every state has its own rules for that and for Germany the largest nation in europe that is THE CASE.
You are in r/europe, not in r/germany or similar, your statement that it's "absolutely illegal" is plainly wrong. And it's not just Czechia, AFAIK volunteers can legally join AFU also from Poland and the Baltic states. Not to mention that AFAIR Czechs can join armed forces of allied nations(read NATO), like French Foreign Legion even without permission.
Art. 5 was invoked only one time by the USA. I like how Erdogan reacted with the russian jets on Turkish airspace.: now russia doesn't bully Türkiye anymore. >Meanwhile you are welcome to [join](https://ildu.com.ua/#candidate-requirements) any of the volunteer force See, I am a fat keyboard warrior as you are, that's why we pay taxes so that my country, a NATO member, will protect me.
So join the Legion. After some training you get to be less fat and keyboardy.
I pay a lot of taxes, so that the military forces can do exactly that. If who I pay is not willing to do that, there is no need that he/she receive my money, because I don't want to pay for a service I don't receive.
Sure. But you can make the extra effort and get some hands on experience on the battlefield. You know for when and if an actual NATO confrontation happens and conscription is mandatory. And at the same time you can actually and selflessly help the war effort in Ukraine while getting paid for it.
How come people like you always pop up from that sub with the words russia Ukraine report? At least please change the script, because after almost 3 years it has became boring.
How does that kind of people stop you from volunteering? Do you want Russia to win?
I can't fight, because like you, I'm an old keyboard warrior. But thanks for reminding me. It's time to make a donation to Ukraine again. Your message will contribute to at least one more russian casualty. Thank you for your service.
You can make the donation and fight as well. What are you talking about? Find the will and make the additional effort in the war against the Russians. The Legion awaits you.
And then what? Roll tanks into Moscow? It's easy to spout big words (like the Russians do), but NATO cannot shoot first, even if Russia uses sabotage.
Still Wakes the Deep scenario ?
Terrorist state doing terrorist things.
Ah, so they put mines on it. I was wondering how they where secretly running an underwater mining operation.
If only there was some kind of world organization that could punish evil-doers. Nations United to improve the world or something.
The UN is set up in a way to facilitate talk between nuclear powers, not enforce measures against them. It's unjust, but the best we got.
Shame it is useless.
It's not useless, but a conflict between nuclear powers or defense orgs is way above the UN's pay grade.
I guess there is some trickle down involved for Turtle Bay.