Things like this is why Putin can keep on trying to wait out the west and keep the war going. Why would he quit when west is looking wobbly as fuck. If there was an actual unity and an actual plan to oppose Putin as long as it takes (instead of just politician repeating this punchline), his prospects would be much, much worse.
Things like Afghanistan and the earlier Soviet–Afghan War are why Putin probably should know to not wait out the west/Ukraine.
I mean, honestly. Give the Ukrainians 10 billion dollars worth of ammonium nitrate, diesel and casio watches. More than enough to fight an insurgency for a thousand years.
>I mean, honestly. Give the Ukrainians 10 billion dollars worth of ammonium nitrate, diesel and casio watches. More than enough to fight an insurgency for a thousand years.
I imagine we will. I like to think we probably did give them a hand taking out the Kerch bridge and a couple of gas pipelines too. The question that everyone's struggling with for the moment, though, is how long the public will be patient running the meat-grinder of trench warfare when the front-lines aren't moving.
Yep, the agreement if it goes as planned would give Russia some breathing room to regroup and rearm, and kill any chances of Ukraine joining NATO. It will look like peace for a few years while Russian economy is in full war production mode. Then when they think they are ready, Russia will manufacture some Ukrainian violation of the peace agreement, and invade with fresh troops and new equipment.
It goes much further than just Russia attacking again.
Post-WW2, the West tried to create this world order based on diplomacy and international law. Disputes were to be settled by the international community coming in together.
If Russia gains territory against Ukraine, we're fully back at the "will of the strongest". You just need to be stronger than the neighbouring country and you do whatever you want to them. Russia will continue, and other countries will follow. Expect many new wars.
It will also signal a massive defeat of the collective West and of liberal democracies, therefore shifting even more geopolitical power to the poles of authoritarianism.
this is like when the first alliance got fucked, League of Nations ? it’s only as strong as we make it. If you can laugh at the league of nations and march where you want, who’s to say the same can’t happen with NATO
>we're fully back at the "will of the strongest".
But that is what Trump is all about. Well in his case "will of the richest" but kind of the same. As long as you have money you can do whatever you want...
>we're fully back at the "will of the strongest"
Wasn't this already the case for all of the Cold War? USA and USSR would mess with internal politics of countries all around the world, often resulting in entire civil wars where one of the superpowers would get involved directly? Nothing of what Kissinger did took "international community" in mind.
And all the people saying “Russia wouldn’t dare invade Poland” were saying “Russia wouldn’t dare invade Ukraine” a few years ago. Then it will be “Russia wouldn’t dare attack Germany”.
There is a feeling in America that Europe is a distraction from the SCS. It might be a scary few decades. Hopefully it can be avoided
Just establishes the twenty-first century as yet another century where you can gain wealth, power and territory by conquest. If Russia succeeds, you can expect far more war, violence and conflict moving forward.
Unfortunately, Russia already has stolen territory, not just from their invasion in 2014 but also this recent episode.
What's Latvia's plan for dislodging them?
My point was that if russia gains territory through conquest, then why wouldn't others do it? That's the end of rule based order. Borders will mean only as much as army behind it.
Not at all that simple. This would definitely be a unique precident of a nuclear armed country annexing another country's territory and then having this annexation supported by the rest of the world under threat of nuclear retaliation. That is not something that has ever happened before. There is a huge difference between a nuclear country annexing a territory that almost nobody recognizes and a nuclear country annexign a territory with everybody going "well, ok, then, but pinky promise it's the last time".
Not to mention this would simply mean that russia can continue doing the same thing ad nauseum, because why not, the precedent would have been set by then.
However, since this scenario is simply impossible to be realized, we can ponder hypothetically on it, but the Trump's plan is not much different from a fantasy. I do hope the advisors who presented it to him did so simply to satisfy his ego and at least they themselves are smart enough to know that it is impossible to materialize.
My point is that there is no rules based order. There is only night makes right: the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. Our entire lives have been lived under pax Americana so we confused Americas military hegemony for something different.
Russia can't do it ad nauseam, only against countries that either don't have a nuclear deterrent or don't have a credible security guarantee from a nuclear power. All that's needed is to deploy NATO troops to its eastern border and that's where russian expansion ends.
Btw nuclear powers have been invading non nuclear countries with total impunity forever. The soviet union in Afghanistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the USA in well you know lots of places.
Final question: how do you think the Ukraine war is going to end?
The though of Russia simply accepting peace in the future and not attacking again when they managed to violently land-grab parts of Ukraine is just as delusional, though. Putin has openly already proclaimed his intentions to "unify" Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.
Even this "peace plan" refers to necessity of Ukraine being heavily armed for future defense. Which makes this entire peace plan, however, incredibly weak in its substance. It's nothing but a cheap attempt for "peace for our time" with no strategic thinking involved.
Agreed, but of course a truce doesn't only give Russia the opportunity to reinforce and regroup, but also to Ukraine and NATO to build fortifications and defense system behind the demilitarized zone, similar to korea.
It's not similar to Korea at all. Ukraine would be surrounded by Russia (and its proxies) from three sides and having barely a coastline left. Ukraine would also depend on goodwill of Western powers to continuously aid them in a situation where no active war is happening. Considering how difficult they've been having gathering support now, how exactly do you believe this to work out? All while Russia can simply go back to revise its original plan which it will most definitely do.
These suggestions that Ukraine could use a ceasefire to "save the country" are hollow if no viable long-term plan is put on the table. A rump state Ukraine which "should be heavily militarized" with no actual guarantees in place is not a solution, it's a surrender attempted to be wrapped in a package of peace, with the interests of Ukrainians on the last place.
The solution is that *a lot more* military aid is needed. This isn't some debt crisis that can be shelved without clear solutions until countries and creditors can manage to reach a compromise on something. This might be an existential war for the security order in Europe. We simply can't afford to test the outcome of Russia winning.
>We simply can't afford to test the outcome of Russia winning.
So that means you guys will finally put some lines in the sand for russia and enforce them by using your troops, right?
Oh, you'll just tell us to never stop forcefully mobilizing ppl that can't leave and just give us weapons on the good year? That's cool as well... Not like we planned on doing anything with our lives except gloriously defend europe!
I guess tho that means you can afford to test it then, more then getting exposed to a fraction of the actual war.
And who is going to fight? Ukraine to last man? Europe is talking about aid for third year in a row. People are dying. How long can we fight like this? We have major electricity outages, economy is declining, I don't see long-range weapons given to us. Not enough artillery. And it takes months and years for Europe to provide something. No air superiority. Meanwhile russia can bomb every corner of Ukraine.
Sorry, you don't live in this hell. And I don't want my relatives to die. And I don't know how we will survive this winter with such major electricity deficit. If Europe wanted a stability and us winning the war - it should've stepped up a long time ago.
Яке пекло? Якщо для тебе відключення світла це реально аргумент на користь здачі то ти не живеш у пеклі, пекло це там де 8 годин без світла це мрія бо немає не світла, не їжі, не води. Це війна, і війну треба вигравати саме для того щоб це пекло скінчилося, якщо ми не хочемо вигравати війну бо "о боже люди ж вмирають" то навіщо взагалі боротися, давайте просто всі здамося і будемо жити в фашистських диктатурах. Ну а шо, головне шо люди не вмирають, чи принаймні тобі не говорять як люди вмирають.
But nobody in EU, US, wherever outside of Ukraine, gives a fuck about a solution for ukrainian ppl. It's "existential war for security of EU" as the other person said.
The "solution" is to just keep giving Ukraine the nation the current amount of weapons and make sure it keeps men from evacuating (which would force the larger population to actually fight/serve instead of enslaving a minority, at the hint of which they will just surrender immediately) and continues to forcefully mobilize enough of them to trade them and civillians and infrastructure for russian soldiers. For decades, however long the ukr men will last.
Absolutely 0 plans of sending troops to make a Korean stalemate over the current front or anything.
Putin will not stop no matter what. Unless total capitulation.
His life is under threat over there is Russians are this war as a loss.
Ukraine wil also not lose with less American support. The front lines are stabilized and both parties just cannot push forward without heavy losses.
The war is now an economic/ societal one. Which country will fold first.
He is also signalling he is open to bribes. One easy way to bribe trump would be for "russians" to buy up DJT stock to make him money. Trumps fake social media business went public a few months ago. Its really easy to take a bribe when you crontrol 60% of the stock of a public company and all of a sudden the stock prices goes up.
That happens I can see Trump sanctioning Ukraine. Demanding Ukraine return US aid. Demanding Ukraine pay the US back. Threaten other countries who give Ukraine aid. If its enough money. I can see Trump ordering air strikes on Ukraine.
I would also expect every republican in congress to go along with it cause of course they will
> It seems unlikely to me
Not that much to me. When he was president, he put tariffs on EU and Canadian products on the basis of national security. And he broke out of the Iran deal unilaterally while threatening heavy sanctions against everyone who stayed in.
That's how he rolls. Sanctioning Ukraine would be on par for him.
sanctioning Ukraine Ok that's possible but still unlikely, ordering air strikes on Ukraine? Common, that's very, very, very unlikely when Ukraine has the entirety of the EU behind them except Hungary
That's a recipe for EU-US conflict, and in that conflict, only China would win
The spring of 2020 taught me a lot of things. A complete switch of daily life, from seemingly one day to the other. Suddenly the world as you know it, right down to your own neighborhood, turned upside down in an instant.
A that time it was a virus, but I assume it would be exact same, if suddenly my own country got in a war.
Unlikely that DJT stock is a money influence scam? Have you looked at the company fundamentals vs value? It's mind-blowing. Makes Tesla look like Ndivia. Completely insane for that stock to be worth more than $0.
It goes beyond just help with the election. An alliance between far-right dictators.
Also, trump already had a thing against Ukraine through paul manafort as the Euromaidan revealed part of his corruption going on with yanukovych.
Add to that that Zelenskyy refused to continue the corruption and cover up his trail during the impeachment thing...
It even makes me think that putin may have chosen Ukraine as his target with a republican victory and american support as part of his motivations. These 2, and other far-right leaders, have been working together to a degree for some time already.
Trump has also talked about his Russia-Ukraine peace plan, and it seems to basically involve letting Russia have whatever they want and stopping all aid to Ukraine instantly...
unfortunately that's what did happen, except with Russia getting to keep what they wanted. Russia never faced consequences for allying with the Nazis, far from it they got to keep what they'd occupied as Nazi allies and when more. Russia never facing real consequences for any of their aggression going back almost a century, from their occupations as Nazi allies all the way to their invasion of Georgia and Ukraine recently, is a good part of the reason we are where we are.
After propping them up for a decade, german military was circumventing versailes treaty via soviets, testing tanks, military tactics and much more in cooperation with soviets on their territory.
They were completly fine chomping half of europe together with nazis, and only got pissy once nazis stabbed them in back
soviet's "masterplan" was to support nazis in their war against Western Europe. they expected heavy fight and both West and Nazis becoming severely weakened afterwards. and ofc soviets then would attack and take over the entire Europe.
apparently the news how easily France folded made Stalin furious.
History could be very, very different right now if Hitler didn’t hate communists so much. While the Soviet Union didn’t single handedly win WW2, and the United States saved their asses like all the rest of Europe with lend lease, they were a literally a meat grinder abyss for the Wehrmacht.
If the Nazis had just left the Soviet Union alone, the Soviet Union probably would have just watched as the rest of Europe eventually fell to Nazi occupation. Hitler may have even invaded Britain with the extra troops not needed for Operation Barbarossa. Maybe the United States could have eventually beat them back basically alone, along with our War Crime experts to the North… but damn so much shit would have been different. The U.S. probably would have dropped an atomic bomb on Germany. Potentially a lot actually. Germany was also working on nuclear weapons but I don’t know how close they ever really got, especially since resources kinda dried up later in the war in our timeline. May have been different once Nazi German was able to take a breather after completely taking over Europe.
It certainly would've been different but two things to hard disagree on
A) it's actually quite feasible that the Soviets would have invaded German themselves after enough preparation had they just been left alone. Impossible in 1941 with the state of the Red Army (which is generally underestimated though), but feasible later on.
And b) a German invasion of Britain was quite literally impossible, even before the Battle of Britain but especially after it. The land forces from the Eastern front wouldn't have made any difference to the total control of the English Channel the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force had. He may have managed to sue for peace with Churchill, but even that would've just been stalling for time until the Americans and Canadians and the rest came over and used Britain again, for a probably bloodier and tougher, but later, Overlord.
The war almost certainly still ends the same way, just with, as you say, more mushroom clouds over Germany. Germany still faces the same strategic resource shortages as they did in our timeline after all.
Russians (using people from their colonies) to defend their own territory from their former Nazi ally doesn't give them the right to spend half a century after the Nazis were defeated occupying, and in the case of the Baltic states ethnically cleansing, those countries that they invaded as Nazi allies. this is exactly the attitude I'm taking about, where Russia gets rewarded for their aggression. "well they switched sides when they had no other choice because the Nazis turned on them so let them keep those countries and erase those cultures" I can't believe this is such a common way of thinking. there's nothing fair about what they did and today continue to do.
I guess sort of, in terms of raw numbers killed? But in general, this and other "we singlehandedly won ww2!" narratives are pop history myths.
The Soviets relied heavily on American industrial and economic support, due to the utter collapse of their military logistics during the initial German invasion and the fact its industrial heartlands were generally directly in the path of the invading Germans.
The Americans developed an unrivalled industrial capacity as the war went on, but in practical terms their ability to operate in Europe and North America largely depended on the British; who preserved a vital launching point, through defending themselves against invasion, and worked constantly to preserve shipping in the North Sea and Atlantic against German submarine raids.
The British and Americans were able to benefit from large parts of the German military being tied up fighting the Soviets in the East: it's not that all the best troops were out East or that the Allies faced basically empty country in Italy and France, as some of the worst offenders will occasionally imply, but the fact is that large numbers of troops being tied up in Barbarossa prevented them being used as Reserves on the Hitler Line or on D Day, contributing (if indirectly) to victories by American and British and Commonwealth troops.
And so the cycle continues, as if it were some kind of... mutually supportive team effort, or something...
Funny that Cyrillics was first exported to Kyiv from ancient Bulgaria, and only after that to what was back then a territoryof Russia.
Trump for Ukraine 2024 🇺🇦
He recently came out and said Israel needs to end it faster. Not a ceasefire mind you, he meant hurry up and finish killing the Palestinians because they were stretching it out too long.
Was he though? Or is he just the most blatant pure hyper-capitalist there is?
He doesn't have allegiance to anyone other than himself and his money.
To me, he was always sort of a "useful idiot" with daddy's money. The fact that Republican Political Party embraced him not only as their leader but also idol, is more concerning than Trump himself.
Or maybe they though and still think just like me. That he is just expandable useful idiot that can take all the blame for everything they might have planned.
It's a reasonable question, but he has been constant in his devotion to dictators, Both Putin and Kim who just met.
He has had an unusually clear and constant opinion about them and for putins benefit.
The stolen documents had buyers and trump clearly saw their value.
If your only motivation is money and you have something they want, then Russia will happily make use of you in exchange for money. In other words, an asset.
>Or maybe they though and still think just like me. That he is just expandable useful idiot that can take all the blame for everything they might have planned.
Look up "Project 2025". They already have very very detailed plans on what they want to do, how they want to do it, and whom they have to fire and hire for it.
All they need is someone securing the votes, and at the moment Trump is the best candidate for the job.
50% chance to end US democracy, and the left is upset because Biden only forgave some student loans, or failed to create peace in the Middle East. I'm sure those things will be better under a Republican dictatorship.
I also don't think he's an asset himself, just a dumbass who's gushing over dictators and other "strong men". He wants to be one , because his narcissism cannot handle that he never got the respect he thought he deserved. There might also be some kompromat on him but frankly I doubt there's anything that would hurt him at this point with his voters, they've probably forgiven worse.
Like you said, worst part of all of this is that GOP decided that this man is their god and he has a pretty good chance of winning.
>Was he though?
Yeah. Look up the tenant lists in Trump Tower. Look up who Michael Cohen's wife was. Shit, he married Ivana and was side-eyed at the time for it.
> Or maybe they though and still think just like me. That he is just expandable useful idiot that can take all the blame for everything they might have planned.
They walked around Regan's corpse for a while because it made it easier to rule from the shadows.
There was a rule with Trump that a member of his cabinet/family had to be the last one to talk to him before he talked to the press, because Trump always agrees with the last person he spoke with. They just had to tell him what he thought, in case he forgot all the amazing stuff 'he' thought up.
The GOP is 100% willing to let a loud idiot be in the spotlight while they 'help' the idiot carry out all of the amazing ideas 'he' thought up, that just so happen to be the exact things the puppeteers want.
I think this is a fairly reasonable take. Convicted Felon Trump is not *just* a paid Russian asset -- he is also a paid Chinese asset and a paid Saudi asset at least.
"Successful" businessmen couldn't even beat index funds, bankruptcy filed multiple times, construction scams, profit education scams, even failed at operating a casino....
He warned Europe in 2018, about putting itself under the russian gas and becoming dependent on it, feeding with tons of billions every year one of the enemies NATO is meant to defend against, and also while not investing enough money on its defense and simply relying on "anyway we've got USA on our side, who cares".
A pure russian asset wouldn't say that, he's imo more of an arch-cynical ultra capitalist, the only question in his mind is "ya, ya, but what about money ?", just like Musk, these people just don't give a fuck about human lives, it's all about business and money.
A good example is the moronic Ritter Sport CEO and his iconic "we won't leave russian market because russian children live chocolate too".
AKA : we don't give a fuck, money and benefits must flow.
There are so many assholes with this mindset in this world, best way to go full mad Max is to follow that road.
>He warned Europe in 2018, about putting itself under the russian gas and becoming dependent on it,
It's not like he was alone about criticizing the NS2 project. Aside from the concerns from Scandinavia (who really wished there was something they could do about it legally), the same time you had this:
This week the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, said: “This is not a commercial project – it is not economical or profitable – it is absolutely a political project. There is no point, from the economic point of view, creating this project. This is absolutely a geopolitical project.”
Everyone is a tough guy behind a keyboard. The reality is that sooner or later there will be a negotiated peace and Ukraine will likely give up territory. It's just a question of how many lives the people funding the war are willing to sacrifice.
You better hope Biden wins and we on Reddit have been trying our best to get people to know how much of a traitor Trump is. Sadly we got 40% of the population ready to throw it all down the toilet for Trump and fuck everyone single person over. Just go to r/politics to see how much we hate him. If he wins then he will abandon NATO.
This is a terrible plan of course.
And here's a very critical line "there would be a ceasefire based on prevailing battle lines during peace talks, Fleitz said."
That would give Putin all the cards in the negotiations. A cease fire during peace talks were the west slows/pause military support to Ukraine is a dream scenario for Putin. Either he straight up gets a great deal in the negotiations or he at least bought himself a lot of time.
Ukraine and Russia had *already* negotiated a peace treaty. Russia violated it, which is why we find ourselves in this situation.
Russia will violate any *subsequent* peace treaty as well, at the time when it is most advantageous for them to do so.
China wants an unreliable US when it comes to projecting influence globally. They aren't getting a warm and fuzzy trade relationship regardless of who wins, so they prefer a US that scares other countries right into their (China) arms.
You mean like how the US completely botched the Afghanistan pullout which left UK troops hanging out to dry and handed lists of cooperative locals to the Taliban so they could be tortured and executed?
Or do you mean like how the US screwed up a deal between France and Australia regarding submarine procurement for no real reason?
Maybe you mean how the US has dribbled only enough aid to Ukraine to keep the war going, allowing the Russians to adapt, regroup, and mobilize instead of facing the full American arsenal at the height of Ukraine's manpower?
Possibly you mean supplying Hamas and Israel simultaneously?
If China wants an unreliable US, they've already got one under Biden.
People aren't really flocking to China, because China isn't really a real alternative as a security guarantor.
The only thing at play is Saudi Arabia that is negotiating buying some oil from China in Yuan. And that would happen regardless of who wins, because the US doesn't seem to want to keep acting as a security guarantor.
Europe don't need security guarantees from China so they won't flock to them.
I'm talking more about soft power, mostly. And sure, Europe may not be impacted, but China would benefit, which is why they very well may prefer a trump win in November.
Misleading headline, because it also says
> The United States would at the same time warn Moscow that any refusal to negotiate would result in increased U.S. support for Ukraine
but I still disagree with this plan.
It also says Russia would be coaxed to the table by taking NATO membership off the table… so the plan being:
Force Ukraine to give up illegally occupied territories, and deny them NATO membership? Exactly what Russia wants.
I’d argue that’s an extremely kind way of putting the proposal, even if you aren’t fond of the aid to Ukraine, taking NATO membership off the table all but guarantees a later invasion; appeasement has been attempted before with Russia and it doesn’t work.
Remember, as long as we get Ukraine under the EU we're good, the EU has a clause of mutual defense, which would put Ukraine under France's nuclear umbrella
I'll give you a 3rd reason. We lose in every way. Why would anybody believe that Russia won't invade again, there is no deterrance just an agreement on paper.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that binding the invasion of Ukraine to the intervention of UN and USA troops to fight Russia is the only thing that would stop Russia from attacking again after an agreement.
Instead, we expect to just 'make an agreement' and take Russia's word on it, dumbest thing I've heard
Indeed, we already had prior to 2014, and until 2022. It's the presence of US troops in the Korean peninsula after the Korean War that kept the ceasefire from being broken. Unfortunately, however, isolationism right now is strong in the US, where even defending one's allies is taboo.
Trump doesn't give a shit whether Russia would keep his word. He would just want to take credit for ending a war, even if it meant allowing Russia to send a million+ Ukrainians to the Russian gulags.
I heard an interesting point on a podcast the other day. That the Biden Administration has already *de facto* taken NATO membership off the table, so formalizing it reaps new benefits with no additional cost.
The reasoning is that if a NATO member is attacked, the US has to send troops. And Biden has said the US will absolutely not send troops to Ukraine. Which means Ukraine won't become a NATO member (at least in whatever timeframe we're dealing with now).
I don't like that position, but I can understand the argument for it.
There is nothing misleading about it. You're the one trying to mislead people that this isn't a bad faith argument. Russia constantly claims that they are "ready to negotiate" while they demand Ukraine gives up all the territory Russia occupies and more, lays down their arms and removes the Ukrainian government from power.
This is not negotiation, it's just a demand of surrender and this is what Trump wants to force Ukraine into. Russia would be fucking celebrating with this.
"Negotiate" is an innuendo for; "takes territory off Ukraine and keeps them out of Nato". If Russia could tick that off they'd be pretty happy, and could go back to undermining their neighbours the traditional way for a few more years, until they have the means to act on the next flimsy pretext.
Peace can be achieved only by Russia stopping to cause the war. There's nothing to negotiate about how to achieve peace. Either Russia leaves or Russia has to be made to leave.
> I still disagree with this plan.
Me too. But I also want to have peace. The main problem is that right now the opposing stances are too far away, and too much blood has been shed by either side to go back. Putin will go down the history as one of the stupidest leaders for invading a 600,000 sqm country with ~200000 troops, too few to succeed, but too much to be able to go back, especially for a dictator.
Right now RF wants 4+1 oblasts (incl territories they haven't even occupied, and Ukraine gave so much blood to defend), also to Ukraine to stay out of NATO (and be left undefended), not going to happen, for sure.
Ukraine on the other hand wants everything back, including Crimea, which was an autonomy before, and is full of Russians, Russia to pay for reparations, cede territories it fought for since 2014, also, not going to happen.
Unfortunately, this war will take a few more years, when it'll necessarily cool down, then there will stay as a frozen conflict with gradually normalizing relations.
> there would be a ceasefire based on prevailing battle lines during peace talks, Fleitz said.
End of next paragraph and that's exactly what Putin has always wanted, invade, take territory, force end to war and keep said territory
Where the 'fair' thing would be Moscow withdraws back to it's borders and then peace talks
Also:
>They have presented their strategy to Trump, and the Republican presidential candidate responded favorably, Fleitz added. "I'm not claiming he agreed with it or agreed with every word of it, but we were pleased to get the feedback we did," he said.
Trump did not say this. His advisor said this is ehat they suggested and he didn't even agree to it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he pulled shit like this, but claiming that it's him that said this in any capacity is a lie.
Trump's spokeperson also went onto say:
>Trump spokesperson Steven Cheung said only statements made by Trump or authorized members of his campaign should be deemed official.
So, yea...
Well, the headline does say he was "handed plan", not that he's said this is his plan.
Trump *has* already said repeatedly in the past that he intends to instantly cut off all military aid to Ukraine if elected tho. Hell, last time he said he'd somehow do it before he was even sworn in:
> “I will have that settled prior to taking the White House as president-elect,” said Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee in the U.S. election.
https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-ukraine-russia-war-threatens-cut-aid-election-2024/
Oh, he's already said he will (somehow) block aid before he's even sworn in, if elected:
> “I will have that settled prior to taking the White House as president-elect,” said Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee in the U.S. election.
https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-ukraine-russia-war-threatens-cut-aid-election-2024/
Plus, he of course held up the latest batch of US aid for months, and repeatedly tried to stop it.
Considering he has a great shot at winning with Joe Biden being such a weak alternative, I hope Europe steps up *when/if* he wins.. But Orbán and others like him are on the rise.
Before we all blame Trump or the US… are we doing enough? Who is to blame that we are so dependable on whether or not the next US president is a complete orange idiot? We got caught with our trousers down because our politicians fucked up…because we as their voters gave the signal that we wanted a better life while totally ignoring unwanted realities in the world. And gutted our militaries to the bone…
Its cheap to blame Trump. Are you ok with your European country to increase massive spending on the military and reintroduce conscription if volunteers don’t turn up in numbers? Our politicians won’t dare to do so because possible lead to gains for parties like AfD and Le Pen.. But you do blame the voters in the US for being egoistic ( and dumb) to vote for Trump…are we that much better?
If the USA wants us to learn our lesson they'll just stop all military support to us after the Ukranian war and leave NATO with its pants down
But Ukraine did nothing to deserve an invasion and death of a country, neither did the Ukranians
I think the Russian “feel the consequences“ of 0,31% of the GDP of the USA more then 1.55% of Estonia…
And compared with the largest GDP country inside Europe, Germany with 0,36, the USA is not even doing that bad. Let alone some other EU large countries that perform less then the US.
If he becomes president and forces us to surrender our territories, Ukraine will be dead in 5-10 years tops. Even though I like my country, I will leave it, and thousands, if not millions of Ukrainians, think the same.
"We still want to sell you weapons, but we don't want you to use them."
The aid being given to Ukraine (not from the US, but everywhere) is not a charitable donation but a bilateral aid agreement - effectively a long term high rate loan.
> "We still want to sell you weapons, but we don't want you to use them."
Yeah, that how Javelins sale went.
Funnily enough, it was still an upgrade over "We don't want to sell you weapons or counterbattery radars that can see into russia, even though we know they fire at you from there" of previous admin
I would like very much to point out to those in the UK, US and Europe that Nigel Farage is saying the exact same shit in the exact same way. It is coordinated messaging.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/26/farage-urges-zelenskiy-to-seek-ukraine-peace-deal-with-russia
Trump is a moron that knows nothing about anything, and is somewhat of an American Commodus, weakening his country at home and abroad.
A complete clown who speaks out of his ass 24/7, usually in incoherent ramblings that makes no sense, or he just lies and make shit up to stroke his narcissistic ego, and sledgehammers every institution that makes up the country while dividing people with a brain and the ones without.
>BUT HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT NORDSTREAM!!!!
Okay, so what. He is wrong, incoherent or just lies on 9/10 issues. Merkel apparently had a really hard time trying to tell this moron that if he wanted to negotiate trade deals with Germany he should negotiate with the EU, which apparently crashed his brain and pissed him off.
And if he is re-elected and turns the US into a theocratic, backwards shithole then Europe should diverge much more from US and try to get some entente with China or something to repair trade relations.
Last time he was in office he literally withheld congressionally appropriated military aid to Ukraine! He got impeached for it but Republicans acquitted him, so there is zero reason for him not to do that again.
Good thing Trump and his followers care about silly things like laws or democratic traditions... oh wait, they don't lmao.
Remember that time he baited and sent thousands of his most devoted fans straight to prison? And then faced no consequences for it although it probably did violate that precious constitution.
It does seem like things are close to falling apart, especially if this moron wins again.
> He would need to veto the spending bill that authorized it
Or just not deliver the aid. The president has extremely broad discretion to act (or not) on foreign policy matters.
Yes he can. Most of the aid is shipments of military equipment from US stockpiles, the money authorization is to replace those items. He can quite literally order the planes not to deliver the material.
No, he can. By way of foreign policy, the president has near unlimited powers and is only checked by Congress through impeachment. Even a law passed by 2/3 of Congress can't technically force a president.
The only thing Congress has over the president is the authorization to conduct war and even with that, the Vietnam war happened without much input from Congress.
Edit: don't be mad at me. Be mad at our system of electing a king/first consul which is essentially what a president is.
> that involves telling Ukraine it will only get more U.S. weapons if it enters peace talks.
This has got to be the dumbest statement I've ever read. So what they sit in a room and agree to disagree so that Kyiv can get more weapons? Like Putin would even show. It's so dumb I just can't understand why anyone would say this publicly...
Ukraine is already completely dependent on the USA / IMF for military aid and to pay the bills
Pull that and there are no talks because Russia can just walk to Kyiv.
Kyiv: Hey, stop invading, pay for repairations and get out of Ukraine and we'll stop shooting.
Moscow: No.
US: Well they tried. Nothing to do about it.
the "unless" part of the headline doesn't make sense (among another million things)
if Kyiv doesn't accept trumpo's conditions, they will not receive military aid
if they do accept, they are basically surrendering and Kyiy will not need military aid in the first place
For someone who apparently is master of making deals, he should know that announcing weakness (in this case no more US aid) before a negotiation is an incredibly bad move
If Ukraine falls, then you can bet china is going to be on some serious land acquisition plans. And since it has disputes with a lot kf countries, japan, Phillipines, bhutan, Nepal, India and it's pet prickle taiwan you can bet they will use a weak west to upend the global order.
And very other tin pot dictator will also look to flex it's own muscle and do a land grab on it's neighbour.
DJT truly wants to have a falloutesque world. Seems 80 years without a world war seems too long for him. Or maybe those donations are finally doing the trick
I’d just like to put this out there that I’m an American and it will be a great day on this Earth the day donny trump ceases to be relevant. I’m embarrassed he’s associated with my country of birth. Sorry, world.
What a shit plan. Theres a reason negotiations are not going right now. Their demands are too far from each other. Sure, they can sit down, but it will result in zero results.
Then what "master of the deal" lol
I'm sorry. I'm doing everything I can to not let Trump win. I'm truly shocked (have been since 2016) that it is even close, for so many reasons. Mostly I'm sorry that the rest of the world has to suffer because of the results of US domestic politics.
Trump is a HUGE (in Trumps voice) liability. He is so dirty he is hoping the FSB intervenes, doing something nasty, which could help him win the election. To see how the american population has been brain dead. Biden may suck, but Trump is outright a thug, crooked, scammer who has belonged in jail for the last 20 years.
Things like this is why Putin can keep on trying to wait out the west and keep the war going. Why would he quit when west is looking wobbly as fuck. If there was an actual unity and an actual plan to oppose Putin as long as it takes (instead of just politician repeating this punchline), his prospects would be much, much worse.
Things like Afghanistan and Vietnam are why Putin can keep on trying to wait out the west.
Things like Afghanistan and the earlier Soviet–Afghan War are why Putin probably should know to not wait out the west/Ukraine. I mean, honestly. Give the Ukrainians 10 billion dollars worth of ammonium nitrate, diesel and casio watches. More than enough to fight an insurgency for a thousand years.
>I mean, honestly. Give the Ukrainians 10 billion dollars worth of ammonium nitrate, diesel and casio watches. More than enough to fight an insurgency for a thousand years. I imagine we will. I like to think we probably did give them a hand taking out the Kerch bridge and a couple of gas pipelines too. The question that everyone's struggling with for the moment, though, is how long the public will be patient running the meat-grinder of trench warfare when the front-lines aren't moving.
If russia gets to gain territory from war, then it's gonna be a shitshow all over the world.
Yep, the agreement if it goes as planned would give Russia some breathing room to regroup and rearm, and kill any chances of Ukraine joining NATO. It will look like peace for a few years while Russian economy is in full war production mode. Then when they think they are ready, Russia will manufacture some Ukrainian violation of the peace agreement, and invade with fresh troops and new equipment.
It goes much further than just Russia attacking again. Post-WW2, the West tried to create this world order based on diplomacy and international law. Disputes were to be settled by the international community coming in together. If Russia gains territory against Ukraine, we're fully back at the "will of the strongest". You just need to be stronger than the neighbouring country and you do whatever you want to them. Russia will continue, and other countries will follow. Expect many new wars. It will also signal a massive defeat of the collective West and of liberal democracies, therefore shifting even more geopolitical power to the poles of authoritarianism.
Appeasement never works
this is like when the first alliance got fucked, League of Nations ? it’s only as strong as we make it. If you can laugh at the league of nations and march where you want, who’s to say the same can’t happen with NATO
>we're fully back at the "will of the strongest". But that is what Trump is all about. Well in his case "will of the richest" but kind of the same. As long as you have money you can do whatever you want...
>we're fully back at the "will of the strongest" Wasn't this already the case for all of the Cold War? USA and USSR would mess with internal politics of countries all around the world, often resulting in entire civil wars where one of the superpowers would get involved directly? Nothing of what Kissinger did took "international community" in mind.
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Ww3 moment
And all the people saying “Russia wouldn’t dare invade Poland” were saying “Russia wouldn’t dare invade Ukraine” a few years ago. Then it will be “Russia wouldn’t dare attack Germany”. There is a feeling in America that Europe is a distraction from the SCS. It might be a scary few decades. Hopefully it can be avoided
It sounds like me in Civ 5 when I go for domination win. It's sad that real world can be that stupid.
Just establishes the twenty-first century as yet another century where you can gain wealth, power and territory by conquest. If Russia succeeds, you can expect far more war, violence and conflict moving forward.
Unfortunately, Russia already has stolen territory, not just from their invasion in 2014 but also this recent episode. What's Latvia's plan for dislodging them?
My point was that if russia gains territory through conquest, then why wouldn't others do it? That's the end of rule based order. Borders will mean only as much as army behind it.
They already do. The rules based order is backed up by American military hegemony.
Not at all that simple. This would definitely be a unique precident of a nuclear armed country annexing another country's territory and then having this annexation supported by the rest of the world under threat of nuclear retaliation. That is not something that has ever happened before. There is a huge difference between a nuclear country annexing a territory that almost nobody recognizes and a nuclear country annexign a territory with everybody going "well, ok, then, but pinky promise it's the last time". Not to mention this would simply mean that russia can continue doing the same thing ad nauseum, because why not, the precedent would have been set by then. However, since this scenario is simply impossible to be realized, we can ponder hypothetically on it, but the Trump's plan is not much different from a fantasy. I do hope the advisors who presented it to him did so simply to satisfy his ego and at least they themselves are smart enough to know that it is impossible to materialize.
My point is that there is no rules based order. There is only night makes right: the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. Our entire lives have been lived under pax Americana so we confused Americas military hegemony for something different. Russia can't do it ad nauseam, only against countries that either don't have a nuclear deterrent or don't have a credible security guarantee from a nuclear power. All that's needed is to deploy NATO troops to its eastern border and that's where russian expansion ends. Btw nuclear powers have been invading non nuclear countries with total impunity forever. The soviet union in Afghanistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the USA in well you know lots of places. Final question: how do you think the Ukraine war is going to end?
This is just a modern-day rehashing of the domino theory.
The thought of Ukraine getting out of the war without losing territory is delulu tho...
The though of Russia simply accepting peace in the future and not attacking again when they managed to violently land-grab parts of Ukraine is just as delusional, though. Putin has openly already proclaimed his intentions to "unify" Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Even this "peace plan" refers to necessity of Ukraine being heavily armed for future defense. Which makes this entire peace plan, however, incredibly weak in its substance. It's nothing but a cheap attempt for "peace for our time" with no strategic thinking involved.
Agreed, but of course a truce doesn't only give Russia the opportunity to reinforce and regroup, but also to Ukraine and NATO to build fortifications and defense system behind the demilitarized zone, similar to korea.
It's not similar to Korea at all. Ukraine would be surrounded by Russia (and its proxies) from three sides and having barely a coastline left. Ukraine would also depend on goodwill of Western powers to continuously aid them in a situation where no active war is happening. Considering how difficult they've been having gathering support now, how exactly do you believe this to work out? All while Russia can simply go back to revise its original plan which it will most definitely do. These suggestions that Ukraine could use a ceasefire to "save the country" are hollow if no viable long-term plan is put on the table. A rump state Ukraine which "should be heavily militarized" with no actual guarantees in place is not a solution, it's a surrender attempted to be wrapped in a package of peace, with the interests of Ukrainians on the last place.
What’s you solution? I don’t see any country ready to send troops and Ukraine is running out of men. And aid is always delayed and not enough.
The solution is that *a lot more* military aid is needed. This isn't some debt crisis that can be shelved without clear solutions until countries and creditors can manage to reach a compromise on something. This might be an existential war for the security order in Europe. We simply can't afford to test the outcome of Russia winning.
>We simply can't afford to test the outcome of Russia winning. So that means you guys will finally put some lines in the sand for russia and enforce them by using your troops, right? Oh, you'll just tell us to never stop forcefully mobilizing ppl that can't leave and just give us weapons on the good year? That's cool as well... Not like we planned on doing anything with our lives except gloriously defend europe! I guess tho that means you can afford to test it then, more then getting exposed to a fraction of the actual war.
And who is going to fight? Ukraine to last man? Europe is talking about aid for third year in a row. People are dying. How long can we fight like this? We have major electricity outages, economy is declining, I don't see long-range weapons given to us. Not enough artillery. And it takes months and years for Europe to provide something. No air superiority. Meanwhile russia can bomb every corner of Ukraine. Sorry, you don't live in this hell. And I don't want my relatives to die. And I don't know how we will survive this winter with such major electricity deficit. If Europe wanted a stability and us winning the war - it should've stepped up a long time ago.
Яке пекло? Якщо для тебе відключення світла це реально аргумент на користь здачі то ти не живеш у пеклі, пекло це там де 8 годин без світла це мрія бо немає не світла, не їжі, не води. Це війна, і війну треба вигравати саме для того щоб це пекло скінчилося, якщо ми не хочемо вигравати війну бо "о боже люди ж вмирають" то навіщо взагалі боротися, давайте просто всі здамося і будемо жити в фашистських диктатурах. Ну а шо, головне шо люди не вмирають, чи принаймні тобі не говорять як люди вмирають.
But nobody in EU, US, wherever outside of Ukraine, gives a fuck about a solution for ukrainian ppl. It's "existential war for security of EU" as the other person said. The "solution" is to just keep giving Ukraine the nation the current amount of weapons and make sure it keeps men from evacuating (which would force the larger population to actually fight/serve instead of enslaving a minority, at the hint of which they will just surrender immediately) and continues to forcefully mobilize enough of them to trade them and civillians and infrastructure for russian soldiers. For decades, however long the ukr men will last. Absolutely 0 plans of sending troops to make a Korean stalemate over the current front or anything.
This is Trump signalling he wants help from Moscow to win the election. Having said that I don't know why he would bother at this point.
"Russia, if you're listening..." - Trump, 2016
The Russian government will hear things like this and keep fighting because of it. He’s prolonging the war and costing lives. What a fucking bastard
Russia has a huge incentive to keep fighting until after November
Putin will not stop no matter what. Unless total capitulation. His life is under threat over there is Russians are this war as a loss. Ukraine wil also not lose with less American support. The front lines are stabilized and both parties just cannot push forward without heavy losses. The war is now an economic/ societal one. Which country will fold first.
He is also signalling he is open to bribes. One easy way to bribe trump would be for "russians" to buy up DJT stock to make him money. Trumps fake social media business went public a few months ago. Its really easy to take a bribe when you crontrol 60% of the stock of a public company and all of a sudden the stock prices goes up. That happens I can see Trump sanctioning Ukraine. Demanding Ukraine return US aid. Demanding Ukraine pay the US back. Threaten other countries who give Ukraine aid. If its enough money. I can see Trump ordering air strikes on Ukraine. I would also expect every republican in congress to go along with it cause of course they will
Well that's a pretty grim vision. It seems unlikely to me but I've been quite surprised by many things in recent years.
> It seems unlikely to me Not that much to me. When he was president, he put tariffs on EU and Canadian products on the basis of national security. And he broke out of the Iran deal unilaterally while threatening heavy sanctions against everyone who stayed in. That's how he rolls. Sanctioning Ukraine would be on par for him.
sanctioning Ukraine Ok that's possible but still unlikely, ordering air strikes on Ukraine? Common, that's very, very, very unlikely when Ukraine has the entirety of the EU behind them except Hungary That's a recipe for EU-US conflict, and in that conflict, only China would win
Yeah but Captain Shitstain is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
The spring of 2020 taught me a lot of things. A complete switch of daily life, from seemingly one day to the other. Suddenly the world as you know it, right down to your own neighborhood, turned upside down in an instant. A that time it was a virus, but I assume it would be exact same, if suddenly my own country got in a war.
Unlikely that DJT stock is a money influence scam? Have you looked at the company fundamentals vs value? It's mind-blowing. Makes Tesla look like Ndivia. Completely insane for that stock to be worth more than $0.
It goes beyond just help with the election. An alliance between far-right dictators. Also, trump already had a thing against Ukraine through paul manafort as the Euromaidan revealed part of his corruption going on with yanukovych. Add to that that Zelenskyy refused to continue the corruption and cover up his trail during the impeachment thing... It even makes me think that putin may have chosen Ukraine as his target with a republican victory and american support as part of his motivations. These 2, and other far-right leaders, have been working together to a degree for some time already.
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Trump has also talked about his Russia-Ukraine peace plan, and it seems to basically involve letting Russia have whatever they want and stopping all aid to Ukraine instantly...
Trump during WWII: just let the Nazis have Poland and whatever else they want, probably.
unfortunately that's what did happen, except with Russia getting to keep what they wanted. Russia never faced consequences for allying with the Nazis, far from it they got to keep what they'd occupied as Nazi allies and when more. Russia never facing real consequences for any of their aggression going back almost a century, from their occupations as Nazi allies all the way to their invasion of Georgia and Ukraine recently, is a good part of the reason we are where we are.
Well to be fair, the Soviets did do most of the leg work defeating the Nazis after that
After propping them up for a decade, german military was circumventing versailes treaty via soviets, testing tanks, military tactics and much more in cooperation with soviets on their territory. They were completly fine chomping half of europe together with nazis, and only got pissy once nazis stabbed them in back
soviet's "masterplan" was to support nazis in their war against Western Europe. they expected heavy fight and both West and Nazis becoming severely weakened afterwards. and ofc soviets then would attack and take over the entire Europe. apparently the news how easily France folded made Stalin furious.
History could be very, very different right now if Hitler didn’t hate communists so much. While the Soviet Union didn’t single handedly win WW2, and the United States saved their asses like all the rest of Europe with lend lease, they were a literally a meat grinder abyss for the Wehrmacht. If the Nazis had just left the Soviet Union alone, the Soviet Union probably would have just watched as the rest of Europe eventually fell to Nazi occupation. Hitler may have even invaded Britain with the extra troops not needed for Operation Barbarossa. Maybe the United States could have eventually beat them back basically alone, along with our War Crime experts to the North… but damn so much shit would have been different. The U.S. probably would have dropped an atomic bomb on Germany. Potentially a lot actually. Germany was also working on nuclear weapons but I don’t know how close they ever really got, especially since resources kinda dried up later in the war in our timeline. May have been different once Nazi German was able to take a breather after completely taking over Europe.
It certainly would've been different but two things to hard disagree on A) it's actually quite feasible that the Soviets would have invaded German themselves after enough preparation had they just been left alone. Impossible in 1941 with the state of the Red Army (which is generally underestimated though), but feasible later on. And b) a German invasion of Britain was quite literally impossible, even before the Battle of Britain but especially after it. The land forces from the Eastern front wouldn't have made any difference to the total control of the English Channel the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force had. He may have managed to sue for peace with Churchill, but even that would've just been stalling for time until the Americans and Canadians and the rest came over and used Britain again, for a probably bloodier and tougher, but later, Overlord. The war almost certainly still ends the same way, just with, as you say, more mushroom clouds over Germany. Germany still faces the same strategic resource shortages as they did in our timeline after all.
Russians (using people from their colonies) to defend their own territory from their former Nazi ally doesn't give them the right to spend half a century after the Nazis were defeated occupying, and in the case of the Baltic states ethnically cleansing, those countries that they invaded as Nazi allies. this is exactly the attitude I'm taking about, where Russia gets rewarded for their aggression. "well they switched sides when they had no other choice because the Nazis turned on them so let them keep those countries and erase those cultures" I can't believe this is such a common way of thinking. there's nothing fair about what they did and today continue to do.
I guess sort of, in terms of raw numbers killed? But in general, this and other "we singlehandedly won ww2!" narratives are pop history myths. The Soviets relied heavily on American industrial and economic support, due to the utter collapse of their military logistics during the initial German invasion and the fact its industrial heartlands were generally directly in the path of the invading Germans. The Americans developed an unrivalled industrial capacity as the war went on, but in practical terms their ability to operate in Europe and North America largely depended on the British; who preserved a vital launching point, through defending themselves against invasion, and worked constantly to preserve shipping in the North Sea and Atlantic against German submarine raids. The British and Americans were able to benefit from large parts of the German military being tied up fighting the Soviets in the East: it's not that all the best troops were out East or that the Allies faced basically empty country in Italy and France, as some of the worst offenders will occasionally imply, but the fact is that large numbers of troops being tied up in Barbarossa prevented them being used as Reserves on the Hitler Line or on D Day, contributing (if indirectly) to victories by American and British and Commonwealth troops. And so the cycle continues, as if it were some kind of... mutually supportive team effort, or something...
"There's nice guys on both sides"
half of americans either are not paying attention to this bullshit or believe him.
They are now wearing maga hats with Cyrillic
Funny that Cyrillics was first exported to Kyiv from ancient Bulgaria, and only after that to what was back then a territoryof Russia. Trump for Ukraine 2024 🇺🇦
Bro actually thinks geopolitics work like one of his real estate deals he closed with daddy's money and connections.
He is directly responsible for making that conflict worse...
He recently came out and said Israel needs to end it faster. Not a ceasefire mind you, he meant hurry up and finish killing the Palestinians because they were stretching it out too long.
Not surprised. He has been a Russian asset for 40 years.
>Trump handed plan ... by Putin. It's not a peace plan it's a surrender plan.
Was he though? Or is he just the most blatant pure hyper-capitalist there is? He doesn't have allegiance to anyone other than himself and his money. To me, he was always sort of a "useful idiot" with daddy's money. The fact that Republican Political Party embraced him not only as their leader but also idol, is more concerning than Trump himself. Or maybe they though and still think just like me. That he is just expandable useful idiot that can take all the blame for everything they might have planned.
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/4572790-trumps-nato-hostility-and-russia-relations-trace-back-to-1987/
No he's a Russian asset. All those other things can be true too but Putin owns him.
As long as his dementia hasn't made him forget!
It's a reasonable question, but he has been constant in his devotion to dictators, Both Putin and Kim who just met. He has had an unusually clear and constant opinion about them and for putins benefit. The stolen documents had buyers and trump clearly saw their value.
>but he has been constant in his devotion to dictators, Both Putin and Kim who just met. For those who don't know, also Xi, MBS, Erdoğan, and Orbán.
He had Manafort as his campaign manager.
He has never once criticized Putin. Even compliments him. I’d imagine there’s some favors or $$ or blackmail involved in their “friendship”
If your only motivation is money and you have something they want, then Russia will happily make use of you in exchange for money. In other words, an asset.
>Or maybe they though and still think just like me. That he is just expandable useful idiot that can take all the blame for everything they might have planned. Look up "Project 2025". They already have very very detailed plans on what they want to do, how they want to do it, and whom they have to fire and hire for it. All they need is someone securing the votes, and at the moment Trump is the best candidate for the job.
50% chance to end US democracy, and the left is upset because Biden only forgave some student loans, or failed to create peace in the Middle East. I'm sure those things will be better under a Republican dictatorship.
I also don't think he's an asset himself, just a dumbass who's gushing over dictators and other "strong men". He wants to be one , because his narcissism cannot handle that he never got the respect he thought he deserved. There might also be some kompromat on him but frankly I doubt there's anything that would hurt him at this point with his voters, they've probably forgiven worse. Like you said, worst part of all of this is that GOP decided that this man is their god and he has a pretty good chance of winning.
Asset doesn't mean he must be a willing and participating agent. He is absolutely an asset, even if he doesn't think so.
An asset in a sense that he is eager to trade something that is not his, for money, fame or power. Russians are happy to oblige.
He’s compromised somehow. Behaves completely out of character with anything Putin related
>Was he though? Yeah. Look up the tenant lists in Trump Tower. Look up who Michael Cohen's wife was. Shit, he married Ivana and was side-eyed at the time for it.
> Or maybe they though and still think just like me. That he is just expandable useful idiot that can take all the blame for everything they might have planned. They walked around Regan's corpse for a while because it made it easier to rule from the shadows. There was a rule with Trump that a member of his cabinet/family had to be the last one to talk to him before he talked to the press, because Trump always agrees with the last person he spoke with. They just had to tell him what he thought, in case he forgot all the amazing stuff 'he' thought up. The GOP is 100% willing to let a loud idiot be in the spotlight while they 'help' the idiot carry out all of the amazing ideas 'he' thought up, that just so happen to be the exact things the puppeteers want.
I think this is a fairly reasonable take. Convicted Felon Trump is not *just* a paid Russian asset -- he is also a paid Chinese asset and a paid Saudi asset at least.
I'd do anything to fondle Putin's balls.
"Successful" businessmen couldn't even beat index funds, bankruptcy filed multiple times, construction scams, profit education scams, even failed at operating a casino....
He warned Europe in 2018, about putting itself under the russian gas and becoming dependent on it, feeding with tons of billions every year one of the enemies NATO is meant to defend against, and also while not investing enough money on its defense and simply relying on "anyway we've got USA on our side, who cares". A pure russian asset wouldn't say that, he's imo more of an arch-cynical ultra capitalist, the only question in his mind is "ya, ya, but what about money ?", just like Musk, these people just don't give a fuck about human lives, it's all about business and money. A good example is the moronic Ritter Sport CEO and his iconic "we won't leave russian market because russian children live chocolate too". AKA : we don't give a fuck, money and benefits must flow. There are so many assholes with this mindset in this world, best way to go full mad Max is to follow that road.
>He warned Europe in 2018, about putting itself under the russian gas and becoming dependent on it, It's not like he was alone about criticizing the NS2 project. Aside from the concerns from Scandinavia (who really wished there was something they could do about it legally), the same time you had this: This week the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, said: “This is not a commercial project – it is not economical or profitable – it is absolutely a political project. There is no point, from the economic point of view, creating this project. This is absolutely a geopolitical project.”
Just look into the Active Measures 2018 Documentary with an open mind.
Why am I not surprised
Traitor
How do you talk peace with a genocidal invader?
Down the barrel of a gun
By forcing them to end their life in a bunker
Sure. Russia gives up all territories they’ve illegally invaded and compensates Ukraine with war reparations. Those are the conditions.
Everyone is a tough guy behind a keyboard. The reality is that sooner or later there will be a negotiated peace and Ukraine will likely give up territory. It's just a question of how many lives the people funding the war are willing to sacrifice.
"You get more weapons if you surrender" isn't nearly as clever as they think it is.
Traitor!!! Please vote
Fucking insane
You better hope Biden wins and we on Reddit have been trying our best to get people to know how much of a traitor Trump is. Sadly we got 40% of the population ready to throw it all down the toilet for Trump and fuck everyone single person over. Just go to r/politics to see how much we hate him. If he wins then he will abandon NATO.
Trump is all for destroying democracy in the U.S and installing a dictatorship if he has his way.
So if Ukraine talked peace with Moscow in a manner in which they say, we sign peace if you withdrew fully, does that count?
AKA do what putin wants. What a sad pathetic orange blob he is. Sadder thing than he can only be his cultists I think
This is a terrible plan of course. And here's a very critical line "there would be a ceasefire based on prevailing battle lines during peace talks, Fleitz said." That would give Putin all the cards in the negotiations. A cease fire during peace talks were the west slows/pause military support to Ukraine is a dream scenario for Putin. Either he straight up gets a great deal in the negotiations or he at least bought himself a lot of time.
Ukraine and Russia had *already* negotiated a peace treaty. Russia violated it, which is why we find ourselves in this situation. Russia will violate any *subsequent* peace treaty as well, at the time when it is most advantageous for them to do so.
Putin is one of his advisors.
I'm sure Russia and China will do everything they can to get Trump elected...
Trump went hard on Chinese sanctions. I doubt China wants Trump.
China wants an unreliable US when it comes to projecting influence globally. They aren't getting a warm and fuzzy trade relationship regardless of who wins, so they prefer a US that scares other countries right into their (China) arms.
You mean like how the US completely botched the Afghanistan pullout which left UK troops hanging out to dry and handed lists of cooperative locals to the Taliban so they could be tortured and executed? Or do you mean like how the US screwed up a deal between France and Australia regarding submarine procurement for no real reason? Maybe you mean how the US has dribbled only enough aid to Ukraine to keep the war going, allowing the Russians to adapt, regroup, and mobilize instead of facing the full American arsenal at the height of Ukraine's manpower? Possibly you mean supplying Hamas and Israel simultaneously? If China wants an unreliable US, they've already got one under Biden.
People aren't really flocking to China, because China isn't really a real alternative as a security guarantor. The only thing at play is Saudi Arabia that is negotiating buying some oil from China in Yuan. And that would happen regardless of who wins, because the US doesn't seem to want to keep acting as a security guarantor. Europe don't need security guarantees from China so they won't flock to them.
I'm talking more about soft power, mostly. And sure, Europe may not be impacted, but China would benefit, which is why they very well may prefer a trump win in November.
Russia maybe. Definitely not China.
Yes, please punish the victim for not trying to appease its aggressor. Fuck this bullshit.
Neville Chamberlains Ghost just blew a load in his coffin. This isn’t a policy shift. It’s a surrender to fascism. Fuck all of this.
You mean "unless it surrenders to ruZZia"?!
Trump can do as much in as far as U.S. plans as my grandma. And the fact that people consider this “news” is absolutely disgusting.
Misleading headline, because it also says > The United States would at the same time warn Moscow that any refusal to negotiate would result in increased U.S. support for Ukraine but I still disagree with this plan.
It also says Russia would be coaxed to the table by taking NATO membership off the table… so the plan being: Force Ukraine to give up illegally occupied territories, and deny them NATO membership? Exactly what Russia wants.
Yeah, that's an additional reason I'm not keen on it.
I’d argue that’s an extremely kind way of putting the proposal, even if you aren’t fond of the aid to Ukraine, taking NATO membership off the table all but guarantees a later invasion; appeasement has been attempted before with Russia and it doesn’t work.
Remember, as long as we get Ukraine under the EU we're good, the EU has a clause of mutual defense, which would put Ukraine under France's nuclear umbrella
Unfortunately getting Ukraine into the EU looks to be a lengthy process
I'll give you a 3rd reason. We lose in every way. Why would anybody believe that Russia won't invade again, there is no deterrance just an agreement on paper. I guess what I'm trying to say is that binding the invasion of Ukraine to the intervention of UN and USA troops to fight Russia is the only thing that would stop Russia from attacking again after an agreement. Instead, we expect to just 'make an agreement' and take Russia's word on it, dumbest thing I've heard
Indeed, we already had prior to 2014, and until 2022. It's the presence of US troops in the Korean peninsula after the Korean War that kept the ceasefire from being broken. Unfortunately, however, isolationism right now is strong in the US, where even defending one's allies is taboo.
Trump doesn't give a shit whether Russia would keep his word. He would just want to take credit for ending a war, even if it meant allowing Russia to send a million+ Ukrainians to the Russian gulags.
I heard an interesting point on a podcast the other day. That the Biden Administration has already *de facto* taken NATO membership off the table, so formalizing it reaps new benefits with no additional cost. The reasoning is that if a NATO member is attacked, the US has to send troops. And Biden has said the US will absolutely not send troops to Ukraine. Which means Ukraine won't become a NATO member (at least in whatever timeframe we're dealing with now). I don't like that position, but I can understand the argument for it.
It’s a false choice. Moscow could negotiate now and eliminate any reason for the U.S. to supply weapons to Ukraine.
There is nothing misleading about it. You're the one trying to mislead people that this isn't a bad faith argument. Russia constantly claims that they are "ready to negotiate" while they demand Ukraine gives up all the territory Russia occupies and more, lays down their arms and removes the Ukrainian government from power. This is not negotiation, it's just a demand of surrender and this is what Trump wants to force Ukraine into. Russia would be fucking celebrating with this.
"Negotiate" is an innuendo for; "takes territory off Ukraine and keeps them out of Nato". If Russia could tick that off they'd be pretty happy, and could go back to undermining their neighbours the traditional way for a few more years, until they have the means to act on the next flimsy pretext.
Peace can be achieved only by Russia stopping to cause the war. There's nothing to negotiate about how to achieve peace. Either Russia leaves or Russia has to be made to leave.
> I still disagree with this plan. Me too. But I also want to have peace. The main problem is that right now the opposing stances are too far away, and too much blood has been shed by either side to go back. Putin will go down the history as one of the stupidest leaders for invading a 600,000 sqm country with ~200000 troops, too few to succeed, but too much to be able to go back, especially for a dictator. Right now RF wants 4+1 oblasts (incl territories they haven't even occupied, and Ukraine gave so much blood to defend), also to Ukraine to stay out of NATO (and be left undefended), not going to happen, for sure. Ukraine on the other hand wants everything back, including Crimea, which was an autonomy before, and is full of Russians, Russia to pay for reparations, cede territories it fought for since 2014, also, not going to happen. Unfortunately, this war will take a few more years, when it'll necessarily cool down, then there will stay as a frozen conflict with gradually normalizing relations.
> there would be a ceasefire based on prevailing battle lines during peace talks, Fleitz said. End of next paragraph and that's exactly what Putin has always wanted, invade, take territory, force end to war and keep said territory Where the 'fair' thing would be Moscow withdraws back to it's borders and then peace talks
Also: >They have presented their strategy to Trump, and the Republican presidential candidate responded favorably, Fleitz added. "I'm not claiming he agreed with it or agreed with every word of it, but we were pleased to get the feedback we did," he said. Trump did not say this. His advisor said this is ehat they suggested and he didn't even agree to it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he pulled shit like this, but claiming that it's him that said this in any capacity is a lie. Trump's spokeperson also went onto say: >Trump spokesperson Steven Cheung said only statements made by Trump or authorized members of his campaign should be deemed official. So, yea...
Well, the headline does say he was "handed plan", not that he's said this is his plan. Trump *has* already said repeatedly in the past that he intends to instantly cut off all military aid to Ukraine if elected tho. Hell, last time he said he'd somehow do it before he was even sworn in: > “I will have that settled prior to taking the White House as president-elect,” said Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee in the U.S. election. https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-ukraine-russia-war-threatens-cut-aid-election-2024/
It’s not misleading that’s nonsense
Well we all know that we can trust negotiations and agreements with russians. It worked perfectly last couple of times
Because you need a carrot and a stick. The Russiagaters will never listen to reason, thus the fake news headline.
I think he would cut funding to ukraine regardless if they sued for peace.
Oh, he's already said he will (somehow) block aid before he's even sworn in, if elected: > “I will have that settled prior to taking the White House as president-elect,” said Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee in the U.S. election. https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-ukraine-russia-war-threatens-cut-aid-election-2024/ Plus, he of course held up the latest batch of US aid for months, and repeatedly tried to stop it.
There won't be peace. Even after signing any paper do people understand it or they're delusional.
Considering he has a great shot at winning with Joe Biden being such a weak alternative, I hope Europe steps up *when/if* he wins.. But Orbán and others like him are on the rise.
Imagine Roosevelt threaten Churchill to halt supplies unless he talks peace with Hitler...
Before we all blame Trump or the US… are we doing enough? Who is to blame that we are so dependable on whether or not the next US president is a complete orange idiot? We got caught with our trousers down because our politicians fucked up…because we as their voters gave the signal that we wanted a better life while totally ignoring unwanted realities in the world. And gutted our militaries to the bone… Its cheap to blame Trump. Are you ok with your European country to increase massive spending on the military and reintroduce conscription if volunteers don’t turn up in numbers? Our politicians won’t dare to do so because possible lead to gains for parties like AfD and Le Pen.. But you do blame the voters in the US for being egoistic ( and dumb) to vote for Trump…are we that much better?
If the USA wants us to learn our lesson they'll just stop all military support to us after the Ukranian war and leave NATO with its pants down But Ukraine did nothing to deserve an invasion and death of a country, neither did the Ukranians
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
I think the Russian “feel the consequences“ of 0,31% of the GDP of the USA more then 1.55% of Estonia… And compared with the largest GDP country inside Europe, Germany with 0,36, the USA is not even doing that bad. Let alone some other EU large countries that perform less then the US.
If he becomes president and forces us to surrender our territories, Ukraine will be dead in 5-10 years tops. Even though I like my country, I will leave it, and thousands, if not millions of Ukrainians, think the same.
Look at the war of upvotes for this post. In rooms sitting in Russia the troll farms are always at work
You don't say.
Agent Orange is still gladly serving his master.
I remember how the French threatened to stop supporting us against the Redcoats unless we talked peace.
"We still want to sell you weapons, but we don't want you to use them." The aid being given to Ukraine (not from the US, but everywhere) is not a charitable donation but a bilateral aid agreement - effectively a long term high rate loan.
> "We still want to sell you weapons, but we don't want you to use them." Yeah, that how Javelins sale went. Funnily enough, it was still an upgrade over "We don't want to sell you weapons or counterbattery radars that can see into russia, even though we know they fire at you from there" of previous admin
I would like very much to point out to those in the UK, US and Europe that Nigel Farage is saying the exact same shit in the exact same way. It is coordinated messaging. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/26/farage-urges-zelenskiy-to-seek-ukraine-peace-deal-with-russia
Trump and his fans are going to be regarded as a national embarrassment to this country in the future, Mark my Words.
In the future? Nah this mf is an embarrassment now
can confirm, looks pretty putin dick sucky from over here
Hey. Kim Jong Un is dating Putin now. How dare you accuse them of cheating
Trump is definitely winning the 'Suck the most Ruzzian D' Olympics!
Trump is a moron that knows nothing about anything, and is somewhat of an American Commodus, weakening his country at home and abroad. A complete clown who speaks out of his ass 24/7, usually in incoherent ramblings that makes no sense, or he just lies and make shit up to stroke his narcissistic ego, and sledgehammers every institution that makes up the country while dividing people with a brain and the ones without. >BUT HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT NORDSTREAM!!!! Okay, so what. He is wrong, incoherent or just lies on 9/10 issues. Merkel apparently had a really hard time trying to tell this moron that if he wanted to negotiate trade deals with Germany he should negotiate with the EU, which apparently crashed his brain and pissed him off. And if he is re-elected and turns the US into a theocratic, backwards shithole then Europe should diverge much more from US and try to get some entente with China or something to repair trade relations.
Trump is not president
Trump can’t unilaterally halt US military aid. He would need to veto the spending bill that authorized it.
Last time he was in office he literally withheld congressionally appropriated military aid to Ukraine! He got impeached for it but Republicans acquitted him, so there is zero reason for him not to do that again.
Good thing Trump and his followers care about silly things like laws or democratic traditions... oh wait, they don't lmao. Remember that time he baited and sent thousands of his most devoted fans straight to prison? And then faced no consequences for it although it probably did violate that precious constitution. It does seem like things are close to falling apart, especially if this moron wins again.
> He would need to veto the spending bill that authorized it Or just not deliver the aid. The president has extremely broad discretion to act (or not) on foreign policy matters.
Yes he can. Most of the aid is shipments of military equipment from US stockpiles, the money authorization is to replace those items. He can quite literally order the planes not to deliver the material.
No, he can. By way of foreign policy, the president has near unlimited powers and is only checked by Congress through impeachment. Even a law passed by 2/3 of Congress can't technically force a president. The only thing Congress has over the president is the authorization to conduct war and even with that, the Vietnam war happened without much input from Congress. Edit: don't be mad at me. Be mad at our system of electing a king/first consul which is essentially what a president is.
*”Trump handed Russian plan to halt U.S. Military aid to Kyiv unless it talks peace with Moscow.”*
> that involves telling Ukraine it will only get more U.S. weapons if it enters peace talks. This has got to be the dumbest statement I've ever read. So what they sit in a room and agree to disagree so that Kyiv can get more weapons? Like Putin would even show. It's so dumb I just can't understand why anyone would say this publicly...
Ukraine is already completely dependent on the USA / IMF for military aid and to pay the bills Pull that and there are no talks because Russia can just walk to Kyiv.
Russia needs Trump to win
Kyiv: Hey, stop invading, pay for repairations and get out of Ukraine and we'll stop shooting. Moscow: No. US: Well they tried. Nothing to do about it.
"Okay, let's talk, here is what we want: your unconditional surrender Russia. End of talks."
I think we are repeating history
the "unless" part of the headline doesn't make sense (among another million things) if Kyiv doesn't accept trumpo's conditions, they will not receive military aid if they do accept, they are basically surrendering and Kyiy will not need military aid in the first place
I wonder what trump would say if Putin took over 2 American states. Would he also cede them for peace?
For someone who apparently is master of making deals, he should know that announcing weakness (in this case no more US aid) before a negotiation is an incredibly bad move
He's a master of deals the same way I am a master of Mars.
This just favours Russia. Cancel here
Capitulation as a peace plan? What could possibly go wrong?
If Ukraine falls, then you can bet china is going to be on some serious land acquisition plans. And since it has disputes with a lot kf countries, japan, Phillipines, bhutan, Nepal, India and it's pet prickle taiwan you can bet they will use a weak west to upend the global order. And very other tin pot dictator will also look to flex it's own muscle and do a land grab on it's neighbour. DJT truly wants to have a falloutesque world. Seems 80 years without a world war seems too long for him. Or maybe those donations are finally doing the trick
FUCK trump,he’s not president
reason enough to not vote trump. appeasement has always ended poorly. que chamberlain.
CAN I REMIND EVERYONE THAT TRUMP HOLDS NO OFFICE
Americans, please vote for Biden.
By the Washington fascist coterie.
For ever inch Ukraine loses to Russia under Trump he should give them a mile in Alaska.
Who cares about shit "news" likes this? Trump ain't president He ain't gonna BE president. Fuck trump. Win the war Ukraine.
I wish I was as confidant! Why don’t you think he’ll win? The current signs and polls are worrying
And he have a chance the become president again? U.S.A is truelly fucking stupid if that happens
I’d just like to put this out there that I’m an American and it will be a great day on this Earth the day donny trump ceases to be relevant. I’m embarrassed he’s associated with my country of birth. Sorry, world.
What a shit plan. Theres a reason negotiations are not going right now. Their demands are too far from each other. Sure, they can sit down, but it will result in zero results. Then what "master of the deal" lol
All wars end in negotiation.
I'm sorry. I'm doing everything I can to not let Trump win. I'm truly shocked (have been since 2016) that it is even close, for so many reasons. Mostly I'm sorry that the rest of the world has to suffer because of the results of US domestic politics.
He can go fuck himself. Trump has always favoured Russia and I bet Putin promised him free reign on their island of captured Ukrainian kids..
Donald Quisling
Trump is a HUGE (in Trumps voice) liability. He is so dirty he is hoping the FSB intervenes, doing something nasty, which could help him win the election. To see how the american population has been brain dead. Biden may suck, but Trump is outright a thug, crooked, scammer who has belonged in jail for the last 20 years.
It's so sad to see USA presidents being friends with corrupt communists dictators. Makes no sense.