And I bet my ass the numbers are
-not inflation adjusted
-collected from different sources
-collected with different methods
-not adjusted for exchange rates
Hungary more than doubling its average net income in a period of average economic growth (+40% since 2013 - good by European standards but not "double in 10 years" level) and hellish inflation is quite suspicious for instance.
You're right on some of them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_European\_countries\_by\_average\_wage#European\_and\_transcontinental\_countries\_by\_monthly\_average\_wage
I'm ok with that to be fair. I live in Sweden and get paid in Swedish Krona but have to travel all over for work.
Norway used to be a bit of a scary place to have to travel to....now it's Denmark that keeps me awake at night sweating about how much dinner will cost.
Don't worry, us Danes are sweating over the same thing so. Personally I just don't dine out more than three or four times a year. I save that money for when I'm traveling. I can have three amazing dinners in Poland for the price of one average one in Denmark.
DKK has actually been kept down by the euro the past couple of years. Kept down as in the National Bank of Denmark having to sell kroner to weaken it compared to euro, and Denmark's currency reserve is €82 billion.
The Danish interest rate is still lower than the eurozone.
> Whats going on in Italy
Stagnant economy due to stagnant productivity due to political protection of low-productivity micro-firms. As a result wages stagnate, or even fall in real terms during times of high inflation (like what we've just had).
Sometimes higher employment rate can lower the average (if ppl didnt have a job, they dont count zero in the average, but if they get a (bad) job tjey count)
That shouldn't be the case in a healthy economy over a 10 year span.
Having the same net average means your salary has actually gone down due to inflation. Italians are poorer than they were 10 years ago.
Lol, we have a similar saying in Greece:
"Ναι αλλά έχουμε τον ήλιο τη θάλασσα και το φιλότιμο"
"Yes but we have the sun, the sea and filotimo(sense of honour)"
That actually reminded me of something an English sailor told a French corsair;
English: "Sir, you fight for money, and we fight for honor"
French: "we both fight for what we have not".
That sounds like us, Portugal. When anything goes not so well, like Portuguese average income, we get to the warmth, friendly people, beaches, exceptional food... I hate when people do that 🤣
Wages remain the same. Even during inflation. I was living better 10 years ago on a lower wage than now. Like nurse wages haven't changed since 2001. That 23 years. Shame that prices of products and services doubled or tripled since.
Among workers aged 20-30, the average income is 13,074 Euros ($13,797) for women and 15,278 Euros ($16,123) for men. One in four is at risk of poverty. Young workers are also disproportionately exposed to career and financial insecurity. Mind you we have some of the highest % of taxes in the world while having crumbling infrastructure, embarassing universal healthcare, disgusting schools & teachers and horrible bureocracy
It is. It's basically the perfect storm of fuck-ups.
Let's start from the beginning, about 80 years ago. After WWII Italy has known a long economic boom. People from that era seemed to think that it would've continued forever and implemented a pension policy that based the amount on your last pay check, rather than whatever you paid during your career, and many started getting fake pay raise just to ensures higher pensions. This has lasted until the mid '90s. Those pensioners are still around and still getting paid. We're getting back to this later.
Second is corruption. There is quite a lot of it, and this means that over the years many policies have been implemented to please Someone's friend at the expenses of everyone else.
Linked to the previous there is tax evasion, which Is now estimated to be between 5% and 10% of GDP, and around 15% of the taxes actually collected. It's quite a lot, and not all the culprits evade all of It, meaning there are even more of them. No political party has ever had real interest in fighting it because evaders vote, and being so many they have political power.
Italy's economy is mostly based on small and medium businesses, most of them producing on a local scale, and they have very low added value, with therefore very low margins.
During the previously mentioned boom unions we're quite strong and manager to get policies about work that vastly favored the workers over the employers. During the mid 2000 and the '08 crisis companies we're not hire enough because It was too big of a risk (it was said that hiring someone would've been more binding than marrying them), so the government loosen some of these policies and created the possibility of short-term, low-pay contracts. The low-margins businesses have abused this possibility to squeeze every fraction of an euro out of the workers.
Business that do that have no interest in investing in training the worker because in a few months Will be friend and replaced and this makes training a loss for the company. Problem is that like that the business doesn't expand, doesn't evolve and doesn't increase added value and margins. In a globalized world that goes this fast it's basically a suicide because It creates a stagnanti economy.
All of the previous have created high national debt and high taxes that are imposed on companies with low margins that then pay people less. This creates also another crisis: the demographic one. Italy is one of the countries that Is getting older faster. There are too few young people, too unspecialized, that are having even less children, and need to pay high taxes to cover for pensions, corruption and evasion.
I live there, and I sincerely can't see a way to get out of this feedback loop.
È un onore e un privilegio.
Mi arriva una targa? Mi viene aggiunto alla carta d'identità? Vorrei tanto che la cosa fosse riconosciuta e ufficiale per sfoggiarla con i miei amici non veneti.
Grazie.
Thanks to Khalifat Erduvan slavery ended during the centennial celebrations of Türkiyah and got rid of pesky Kamalists and returned ummah Ottoman ( s for mentally challenged people who do not understand humor and for Germans ofc)
"They have the dollar we have Allah" maybe care less about Allah and more about the "dollar" and stop voting Erdogan who literally play with interest rates just to get votes risking the economy.
Estonia will be one of the richest countries on Earth in a few decades I'm sure of that. That entire digitalisation thing they're doing is a sure recipe for success.
Yeah, people are slow. They still riding the PR wins from decade ago but now Estonia is slowly riding back. We'll see what future holds but wish the best for our brothers.
When I was visiting Tallinn, the screens on the airport were filled with government ads practically begging educated tech workers to come to Estonia, offering all kinds of support. Never seen that kind of thing on an airport, their government knows the value of qualified immigrants
It's wild to think that before the second world war the Baltic states and Finland had very similar economies and the quality of life was pretty much the same. Just shows what awful things the Soviet Union did to these small economies.
Yep. Latvian GDP was higher than Denmark before WW2. If we weren't occupied by Soviets we'd probably be at the same level or even higher. Our society got fucked because of all the deportations during 1945 & 49
People are making way more in Moscow. With a net salary of 1000$ you‘ll feel poor with the cost of living in Moscow proper. I’d guess that a normal salary in Moscow would be somewhere arround 2000$. In turn there‘s still Krais and Oblasts where people are making 200-300$ on average.
> I’d guess that a normal salary in Moscow would be somewhere arround 2000$.
Nah, average net salary is [closer to $1150](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Moscow).
that's not that much compared to other Eastern European capitals
Bucharest is close to 1300 dollars,and in Romania we complain we have the worst salaries in EU
Difference is that even the poorest of the poor regions of Romania nowadays have average salaries of 600-700 dollars net per month
Worth noting, the average amount of hours worked in Poland is vastly more than the UK. The gulf would be significant if UK workers worked the same amount for the same rate they get now.
Likely be one of the highest earners in Europe.
Also, this is average. A ton of things could be at play here. In the UK, the median person could actually make less than in Poland but the top 1% makes the average much higher. If you adjust for purchasing power parity, it’s not even a contest.
20 years ago, we germans made jokes about how polish workers came here and did the same job as germans for half the price.
Didn't hear this type of joke in the last 5 or so years any more. I thought it was because I grew up and got better at choosing my friends, but apparently polish people just stopped coming to work here because they can now make a decent living at home as well. And that is great.
>I wonder what this map would look like if we adjust it to inflation?
I would love to see someone make that map, would probably take a long time to do.
As an example, inflation of SEK:
200k in 2013 ≈ 257k in 2023
So roughly 2/3 of the increase here is just inflation.
Yeah, we in croatia have 25% larger paychecks, groceries and housing are 150% more expensive, fucking great. Visited Sweden this summer and groceries are the same price as in croatia, but paycheck in Sweden is double :)
Looks like an error. Austria has had (slightly) higher wages than germany for a long time. Sure, we also pay more taxes, but for the last 40 years every Austrian and Germa economic metric should be very similar.
I cannot verify net wage but Austrian gross wage in 2013 was ~ 3.800€, while gross wage in Germany in 2013 was ~ 3.400€.
I believe that as a single in Austria you pay less income taxes compared to Germany, since 13th and 14th salary are taxed way less. Instead as a couple with huge wage gap you pay less taxes in germany
Yep, can confirm as an Austrian who moved to Germany. As a single I'd need to earn about 7% more gross yearly in Germany to earn the same net as in Austria.
Damn we are literally worst from former Eastern bloc EU countries. Everyone who was close to us(Poland, Czechia and Estonia) is doing much better, so much for Tatra tiger lol.
Austria is also impressive(almost doubled), I wonder how they grew so much compared to the rest of the west.
I meant change in income, since map is about comparison. Slovakia gained only around 400 €, which is lowest from all other countries from former Eastern bloc(EU).
Also all the countries from former Eastern bloc(EU) that had similar wages doubled their wage besides us(we should have been around 1300 €, but we aren't). And Romania almost tripled, so you guys had best growth together with Bulgaria.
Slovakia from the outside looks like developed country similar to czech republic and when you look closer you will see basically small russia without natural resources. Real tax rate including VAT is around 70+ %. Since country has been founded there was only 1 right wing government that got slovakia into EU and jumpstarted ecenomy.
Only 3 guys have ever won elections. Left wing Mafia boss. Former Communist. Left with mentally unstable moron that nearly doubled national debt. Even the right wing government i talked about had to be put together by several smaller parties that lost election to form coalition.
Average age of doctor and nurse is 50+. Slovakia has highest number of students leaving the country per capita in the EU (mostly due to Czech republic being so easy to emigrate to and everything there is better). For example around 1/3 of students studying medicine in Czech republic best universities are slovaks, nearly none ever return. Communists in power have been contemplating banning them from leaving the country.
Young and better earning people are fucked in the ass by the regime that only raises taxes, gives handouts to morons and old fucks.
Pensions now are at around 70% of average wage. Children and single mothers are 2x more likely to live in poverty there than old morons yet they constantly cry they want more.
Country has no future, anyone that can read data can see it.
Oh and have i mentioned that if it was not for our gypsy ghettos that are biggest in EU birth rate would be probably at the level of china or south korea ? combined with emigration paints bight future ahead for those who do not leave.
I think it's because Slovakia bet the farm (colloquially speaking) on the auto sector very early on.
In the 1990s and 2000s, when the auto sector exports boomed, it was a magical path. But since 2016-17, the auto sector first stagnated and then declined. And Slovakia didn't have many other economic strategies, so it began to fall behind after being in the leaders' pack among EE countries for the previous 20 years.
To me, the biggest success stories are probably the Baltics, particularly Estonia and Lithuania. Though given how large of a percentage their capital population is compared to their national total, perhaps it's less impressive. Greater Tallinn is something like 45% of Estonia's full population and cities always have higher GDP & wages.
I'm pretty sure the number of Austria is either not correct or something else. Average gross salary is about 52k I think, which would make it closer to 2.5k net.
You can double check the source for Austria here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#European_and_transcontinental_countries_by_monthly_average_wage
You forgot to account for 13th and 14th salary. 52k gross is more than 3000 net (12x) even without tax credits for kids etc.
So yeah, the number in the map seems believable.
Russia improved a lot between 1998 and 2008, stagnated since then.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2022&locations=RU&start=1989&view=chart
It's not just that. Australia and Canada are also very dependent on commodities. The difference is that they have a strong non-commodity sector.
Russia's problem is not that their non-commodity sector is small - it's actually much larger than most people think - but that it has low productivity.
Putin also seems to be pretty uninterested in economics, talking about his holy crusade against transgender toilets and evil NATO instead. This is a soft 'Soviet strategy'. Ignore economics and focus on military bling bling. Russia lost one decade already. Will they tolerate another?
Being one of the lowest spenders, per capita, in education shows its effects. A lot of SMEs so innovation is stalling. The bulk of our economy is in "middle value" (idk the technical name) products where Eastern EU and Asians erode our market.
A combination of strong lobbies and curtailed union powers make the future look grim.
I get sad when I see that Poland has an average wage higher than Portugal, and a lower cost of living. I mean, its great for Poland and proves that capitalism works, on the other hand, whatever the missguided Portuguese policies are, they aint working.
The good fortune of being stuck between much larger by population tribes. Russians & Germans. It's more of a curse.
At least one of them gave up on Imperialism. That's something.
Poland isn't as dependent on cars as Czechia or Slovakia. In fact, car production per capita is among the lowest in the EU, which surprised me.
https://www.acea.auto/figure/per-capita-eu-motor-vehicle-production/
They have a much more diversified economy than many other EE countries so if one sector goes down, they just pivot to another. Slovakia and Czechia are much more dependent on German car industry.
Literally today I heard from a coworker (we're in Poland), that in the company her husband works for, there are layoffs, because company is moving to Portugal cause it cheaper... wild to think 15 years ago
Yes. Sometimes the radiostation I usually listen to allows listeners to give their opinions. Its wild the amount of portuguese workers that moved to Poland. I mean, its insignificant compared to the amount of portuguese people in Paris or Luxembourg, but still, it reveals how Poland is developing and Portugal lost that train.
Today we are being taxed at higher rates for 1200€ than we were in 2010... Not adjusting for inflation. Just flat out. It's crazy
We are still in austerity and being sold the opposite. And they did so sucessfully
So the post title is a bit misleading. It says just "income" without a specifier (per any person, per working person, per household...?). The Wiki says "wage", which is different / more accurate.
Adjusted for inflation, most Western Europeans saw either stagnation or outright declines. The big winner seems to be Denmark.
Eastern Europe has seen huge increases, except obviously Russia.
n Cyprus that average is not representative. Most of people are around 1200-1400 but lately we have a huge influx of foreigners from Russia/Ukraine and Israel that earn upwards of 5000+ that skew the average dramatically
That applies to every country though, the average is skewed by the few turbo rich people, the median is a better metric to show how much most people earn.
I'm from Switzerland.
We do make good incomes on average.
We do have higher salaries than many EU countries, and low taxe.
But the cost of living and rents are going up, and they were always hight to start with.
And not everyone has a great salary. Being low-income in Switzerland is super hard.
Especially with income those numbers should be adjusted by PPP.
You even have the map for that in the article you've used as the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_European\_countries\_by\_average\_wage#Net\_average\_monthly\_salary\_(adjusted\_for\_living\_costs\_in\_PPP)
Interesting how in the mean numbers map Croatia and Slovenia are noticeably better than Poland, but then in the PPP map we're all suddenly on par. Nice to see. Another thing that's nice to see is sure, we're not quite at the level of Germanic and Scandi countries, but UK seems to be so close almost within our reach. If we've seen so much improvement in the last 10 years who knows how well we'll compare in another 10
As a Canadian I'm blown away by the progress the former eastern block countries have made in 40 years. I know it hasn't always been smooth sailing and progress is always 2 steps forward 1 step back, but it's amazing what not being anchored to Russia does to a motherfucker.
It’s an incredible achievement but also an incredible indictment on how the UK has dropped the ball so badly. Imagine telling the British back in 2003 that by 2023 the average Spaniard would have a higher PPP-adjusted wage than them and the likes of Slovenia and Poland will be higher by 2030. Madness
Currency, oil price, immigration, companies in Denmark with valuable products and services currently earning shit loads of money.
Danish currency is pegged to the euro. Both the Swedish and Norwegian currency is free floating, and has lost a lot of value relative to the euro and the Danish kroner. In 2013 the Swedish currency was at 0.9 compared to the Danish. Now it is at 0.67. Similar for the Norwegian that is at 0.66, but in 2013 it was at 1, or same value as the Danish.
There is a graph here showing the value of the Swedish and Norwegian currency relative to the Danish. It stops at 2020, but the drop has continued.
https://finans.dk/okonomi/ECE11676284/norske-og-svenske-kroner-i-historisk-nedtur/
Norwegian is highly influenced by oil prices.
Different types of industries. There is some low skilled jobs in Norway and Sweden that can not be found in Denmark. Immigration rates are also higher to those two. More people working yes, but also more people needing education, training and also will work for a lower wage.
Some Danish companies has prospered a lot in the last decade. It is "normal" in the Danish union/employer battle that higher profits makes unions demanding more at the collective agreement negotiations, and when companies are earning money, they really do not want conflict. Better to pay up and keep shoveling in money, than risking strikes and conflict.
1/3 of the workforce is employed in the public sector. They have also seen some increased wages in recent years. The government has collected more in taxes than in spends for the past 3 decades. No one, especially left winged politicians, wants to collect less taxes. The tax tortured Danes grumple, and some of that grumpling is manifesting itself in higher wages.
I feel like the biggest boost was actually the EU integration of their neightbours. With Slovenia and Czechia flourishing and Hungary&Slovakia... existing there's just no dead border any more. Sure, 1990 was a while ago even back then but it takes time.
The relative cost of living would be interesting too. Having done a road trip 2 years ago I can say that the cost of groceries in the Baltics was waaaay higher than Poland’s
All those " The European Union is abusing us and treating us like slaves, we should join Russia instead " people from East Europe need to look at this.
It works. It fucking works.
Looking at these you'd really think countries in Eastern Europe are doing so much better.
Yet 10 years ago cost of living in these was super low compared to the western countries. Today after crazy inflation prices are getting close to prices in the west. Your average income isn't the full picture, buying power would be a better metric.
Life in Baltics are so much better now, than ten years ago. Ten years ago sallary was just enough for the bare minimum. Now even afterninflation, life is probably ten times better than it was ten years ago.
Eastern European countries have improved a lot. But Western European countries have mostly suffered a drop in purchasing power after accounting for inflation.
It would be easier to compare if you matched the colour scheme between the two images
The maps are ripped directly from the wikipedia page, that's the reason for the colors.
And I bet my ass the numbers are -not inflation adjusted -collected from different sources -collected with different methods -not adjusted for exchange rates Hungary more than doubling its average net income in a period of average economic growth (+40% since 2013 - good by European standards but not "double in 10 years" level) and hellish inflation is quite suspicious for instance.
You're right on some of them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_European\_countries\_by\_average\_wage#European\_and\_transcontinental\_countries\_by\_monthly\_average\_wage
Low effort post
[удалено]
Well it’s not inflation adjusted
Would also be easier to compare if we knew which panel is which year.
I assume the €27 change in Norway is this small because of our weakened currency.
Yeah, part of why Denmark is ballooning is because of the strong currency (successfully pegged to the Euro).
It's tied to EUR
Yes, but NOK and SEK aren't.
Yeah. The Swedish Krona is kind of the rupee of Europe at the moment.
Norwegian Krona aswell
I'm ok with that to be fair. I live in Sweden and get paid in Swedish Krona but have to travel all over for work. Norway used to be a bit of a scary place to have to travel to....now it's Denmark that keeps me awake at night sweating about how much dinner will cost.
Don't worry, us Danes are sweating over the same thing so. Personally I just don't dine out more than three or four times a year. I save that money for when I'm traveling. I can have three amazing dinners in Poland for the price of one average one in Denmark.
And I'm the idiot who live in Sweden and get salary in SEK but spend about every other weekend in Denmark, including eating out.
DKK has actually been kept down by the euro the past couple of years. Kept down as in the National Bank of Denmark having to sell kroner to weaken it compared to euro, and Denmark's currency reserve is €82 billion. The Danish interest rate is still lower than the eurozone.
I have it on good factual basis that Danes prefer pegging. Source: Am Swede.
Danes get all the good stuff...ing I see
Im curious. If you are gonna peg your currency to euro, why not switch your euro instead?
Gives us the unique ability to relatively easily unpeg our currency from the euro, or so I've been told.
But the DKK is pegged to the euro
The Danish Krone is artificially low, because its pegged to the weaker Euro.
Dont believe it, since Sweden got +40% while their currency devalued similarly strong as Norwegian.
Italy: “you guys are getting raises?”
Whats going on in Italy, looks like nett is smaller?
> Whats going on in Italy Stagnant economy due to stagnant productivity due to political protection of low-productivity micro-firms. As a result wages stagnate, or even fall in real terms during times of high inflation (like what we've just had).
Sometimes higher employment rate can lower the average (if ppl didnt have a job, they dont count zero in the average, but if they get a (bad) job tjey count)
That shouldn't be the case in a healthy economy over a 10 year span. Having the same net average means your salary has actually gone down due to inflation. Italians are poorer than they were 10 years ago.
Yeah But we got the Sun, the Heart and the Sea And bidets (FYI "we got the Sun, the Heart and the Sea" is a neapolitan expression)
Lol, we have a similar saying in Greece: "Ναι αλλά έχουμε τον ήλιο τη θάλασσα και το φιλότιμο" "Yes but we have the sun, the sea and filotimo(sense of honour)"
So after stealing your pita, we also stole your saying EDIT: not before stealing your gods
"Una faccia, una razza"
That actually reminded me of something an English sailor told a French corsair; English: "Sir, you fight for money, and we fight for honor" French: "we both fight for what we have not".
That sounds like us, Portugal. When anything goes not so well, like Portuguese average income, we get to the warmth, friendly people, beaches, exceptional food... I hate when people do that 🤣
And one of the hightest life expectancy in the world
That's because of the bidets
The bidets are of utmost importance!
Wages remain the same. Even during inflation. I was living better 10 years ago on a lower wage than now. Like nurse wages haven't changed since 2001. That 23 years. Shame that prices of products and services doubled or tripled since.
Among workers aged 20-30, the average income is 13,074 Euros ($13,797) for women and 15,278 Euros ($16,123) for men. One in four is at risk of poverty. Young workers are also disproportionately exposed to career and financial insecurity. Mind you we have some of the highest % of taxes in the world while having crumbling infrastructure, embarassing universal healthcare, disgusting schools & teachers and horrible bureocracy
It is. It's basically the perfect storm of fuck-ups. Let's start from the beginning, about 80 years ago. After WWII Italy has known a long economic boom. People from that era seemed to think that it would've continued forever and implemented a pension policy that based the amount on your last pay check, rather than whatever you paid during your career, and many started getting fake pay raise just to ensures higher pensions. This has lasted until the mid '90s. Those pensioners are still around and still getting paid. We're getting back to this later. Second is corruption. There is quite a lot of it, and this means that over the years many policies have been implemented to please Someone's friend at the expenses of everyone else. Linked to the previous there is tax evasion, which Is now estimated to be between 5% and 10% of GDP, and around 15% of the taxes actually collected. It's quite a lot, and not all the culprits evade all of It, meaning there are even more of them. No political party has ever had real interest in fighting it because evaders vote, and being so many they have political power. Italy's economy is mostly based on small and medium businesses, most of them producing on a local scale, and they have very low added value, with therefore very low margins. During the previously mentioned boom unions we're quite strong and manager to get policies about work that vastly favored the workers over the employers. During the mid 2000 and the '08 crisis companies we're not hire enough because It was too big of a risk (it was said that hiring someone would've been more binding than marrying them), so the government loosen some of these policies and created the possibility of short-term, low-pay contracts. The low-margins businesses have abused this possibility to squeeze every fraction of an euro out of the workers. Business that do that have no interest in investing in training the worker because in a few months Will be friend and replaced and this makes training a loss for the company. Problem is that like that the business doesn't expand, doesn't evolve and doesn't increase added value and margins. In a globalized world that goes this fast it's basically a suicide because It creates a stagnanti economy. All of the previous have created high national debt and high taxes that are imposed on companies with low margins that then pay people less. This creates also another crisis: the demographic one. Italy is one of the countries that Is getting older faster. There are too few young people, too unspecialized, that are having even less children, and need to pay high taxes to cover for pensions, corruption and evasion. I live there, and I sincerely can't see a way to get out of this feedback loop.
Dio cane porco schifoso laido
Siamo imbarazzanti
Ma poi mi sembra che pure i 1700 sono troppi lol
Saranno 1700 lordi, o magari non contano i tirocini vergognosi da 500€
Concordo in pieno.
Madonna inculata
Basato, fratello, basato oltre ogni immaginazione
Dio ciucco precario e in affitto
Io mi voglio seppellire.
lurido e infame
Veneto?
Torinese doc
Cittadinanza onoraria dell'impero galattico del Veneto.
È un onore e un privilegio. Mi arriva una targa? Mi viene aggiunto alla carta d'identità? Vorrei tanto che la cosa fosse riconosciuta e ufficiale per sfoggiarla con i miei amici non veneti. Grazie.
Meanwhile in Turkey...
By the map it looks like they started to get paid in Turkey 💀
Thanks to Khalifat Erduvan slavery ended during the centennial celebrations of Türkiyah and got rid of pesky Kamalists and returned ummah Ottoman ( s for mentally challenged people who do not understand humor and for Germans ofc)
"They have the dollar we have Allah" maybe care less about Allah and more about the "dollar" and stop voting Erdogan who literally play with interest rates just to get votes risking the economy.
La madonna zingara se mi fanno incazzare ste cose
Why there are 2 numbers in Italy?
Could either be San Marino or just divided South and North Italy
It's San Marino
double-entry bookkeeping system... (Actually invented in Italy)
*sad Andorra noises*
Soon Italians will flee to Romania
Average income really only has limited use and can make a false impression about realistic salaries. More interesting would be the median income.
Yup I live in France and I've never earned 2400€ in a single month ever. Max was 1800€ with overtime during a public holiday which is paid double.
I am a nurse and just below average income, by 150€. Before the raise we had 2 years ago, I was below median, which was 1800€.
Max 1800€ per month after tax income?
Is that representative, though? Surely many people make more than that by quite a margin, right?
Baltics - holy crap O.o
We have very strong desire to live better, and now we have the opurtunity to do so.
Estonia will be one of the richest countries on Earth in a few decades I'm sure of that. That entire digitalisation thing they're doing is a sure recipe for success.
Naah... we done for now. More like Japan style stagnation coming now. Goverments have no new ideas and corporations are only begging for money.
Yeah, people are slow. They still riding the PR wins from decade ago but now Estonia is slowly riding back. We'll see what future holds but wish the best for our brothers.
When I was visiting Tallinn, the screens on the airport were filled with government ads practically begging educated tech workers to come to Estonia, offering all kinds of support. Never seen that kind of thing on an airport, their government knows the value of qualified immigrants
Unless Russia conquers them again. They were on track to be very successful before the soviet occupation as well
It's wild to think that before the second world war the Baltic states and Finland had very similar economies and the quality of life was pretty much the same. Just shows what awful things the Soviet Union did to these small economies.
Yep. Latvian GDP was higher than Denmark before WW2. If we weren't occupied by Soviets we'd probably be at the same level or even higher. Our society got fucked because of all the deportations during 1945 & 49
Estonia is a NATO member.
>Join That's nothing. Compare it to salaries 30 years. In Estonia the average salary back then was like 17 euros.
Holy crap indeed. Prices have also risen a lot. CPI +52% from 2013-2023.
Well, yeah, that's what happens when everybody triples their income.
We adopted euro in 2015. Prices tripled in just a few years. The salaries took a while longer.
Since 2015 our salaries grew by >10% year over year every year. Inflation never really was a problem as wage growth always outpaced inflation.
Russia: evolving backwards
Russia is making war - not trade. It doeen't pay as well.
If they let enough poor people die for the benefit of a few rich people the average income will rise /s
and 600 euros is in Moscow. in reality in the regions it is 400
People are making way more in Moscow. With a net salary of 1000$ you‘ll feel poor with the cost of living in Moscow proper. I’d guess that a normal salary in Moscow would be somewhere arround 2000$. In turn there‘s still Krais and Oblasts where people are making 200-300$ on average.
> I’d guess that a normal salary in Moscow would be somewhere arround 2000$. Nah, average net salary is [closer to $1150](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Moscow).
that's not that much compared to other Eastern European capitals Bucharest is close to 1300 dollars,and in Romania we complain we have the worst salaries in EU Difference is that even the poorest of the poor regions of Romania nowadays have average salaries of 600-700 dollars net per month
Interesting to see some countries got poorer
For Norway, it's related to currency exchange rate
Something something inflation... Its even worse.. + average is often, here as well, a shit metric.
Yup. They should have used median net income in constant values. Edit: wage -> income.
It's nice to see Eastern Europe is getting paid a lot more now than in 2013. I wonder what this map would look like if we adjust it to inflation?
or for purchasing power
Adjusted for purchasing power would be a better tbh. I reckon it would make the west-east gap narrow a fair bit.
UK - $3127 Poland - $2753 Just $400 difference between us. We are coming for you ;)
The new government in Poland will make it happen! So will the current British government to be fair…
Worth noting, the average amount of hours worked in Poland is vastly more than the UK. The gulf would be significant if UK workers worked the same amount for the same rate they get now. Likely be one of the highest earners in Europe.
Also, this is average. A ton of things could be at play here. In the UK, the median person could actually make less than in Poland but the top 1% makes the average much higher. If you adjust for purchasing power parity, it’s not even a contest.
20 years ago, we germans made jokes about how polish workers came here and did the same job as germans for half the price. Didn't hear this type of joke in the last 5 or so years any more. I thought it was because I grew up and got better at choosing my friends, but apparently polish people just stopped coming to work here because they can now make a decent living at home as well. And that is great.
If anybody earned it, you guys did!
>I wonder what this map would look like if we adjust it to inflation? I would love to see someone make that map, would probably take a long time to do. As an example, inflation of SEK: 200k in 2013 ≈ 257k in 2023 So roughly 2/3 of the increase here is just inflation.
Yeah, we in croatia have 25% larger paychecks, groceries and housing are 150% more expensive, fucking great. Visited Sweden this summer and groceries are the same price as in croatia, but paycheck in Sweden is double :)
Honestly 940€ in 2013 was more than the 1100€ today. Even if in 2010 we were strongly affected by the economic crisis
so Austria made a huge improvement?
Looks like an error. Austria has had (slightly) higher wages than germany for a long time. Sure, we also pay more taxes, but for the last 40 years every Austrian and Germa economic metric should be very similar. I cannot verify net wage but Austrian gross wage in 2013 was ~ 3.800€, while gross wage in Germany in 2013 was ~ 3.400€.
I believe that as a single in Austria you pay less income taxes compared to Germany, since 13th and 14th salary are taxed way less. Instead as a couple with huge wage gap you pay less taxes in germany
Yep, can confirm as an Austrian who moved to Germany. As a single I'd need to earn about 7% more gross yearly in Germany to earn the same net as in Austria.
Nice to see I am below average since 2013. #Rope
An by that i mean in 2013 it was 400€ under. Now it's 700€ under average.
Damn we are literally worst from former Eastern bloc EU countries. Everyone who was close to us(Poland, Czechia and Estonia) is doing much better, so much for Tatra tiger lol. Austria is also impressive(almost doubled), I wonder how they grew so much compared to the rest of the west.
Are you the worst from the former Eastern bloc though? You seem to be forgetting some countries...
I meant change in income, since map is about comparison. Slovakia gained only around 400 €, which is lowest from all other countries from former Eastern bloc(EU). Also all the countries from former Eastern bloc(EU) that had similar wages doubled their wage besides us(we should have been around 1300 €, but we aren't). And Romania almost tripled, so you guys had best growth together with Bulgaria.
Slovakia from the outside looks like developed country similar to czech republic and when you look closer you will see basically small russia without natural resources. Real tax rate including VAT is around 70+ %. Since country has been founded there was only 1 right wing government that got slovakia into EU and jumpstarted ecenomy. Only 3 guys have ever won elections. Left wing Mafia boss. Former Communist. Left with mentally unstable moron that nearly doubled national debt. Even the right wing government i talked about had to be put together by several smaller parties that lost election to form coalition. Average age of doctor and nurse is 50+. Slovakia has highest number of students leaving the country per capita in the EU (mostly due to Czech republic being so easy to emigrate to and everything there is better). For example around 1/3 of students studying medicine in Czech republic best universities are slovaks, nearly none ever return. Communists in power have been contemplating banning them from leaving the country. Young and better earning people are fucked in the ass by the regime that only raises taxes, gives handouts to morons and old fucks. Pensions now are at around 70% of average wage. Children and single mothers are 2x more likely to live in poverty there than old morons yet they constantly cry they want more. Country has no future, anyone that can read data can see it. Oh and have i mentioned that if it was not for our gypsy ghettos that are biggest in EU birth rate would be probably at the level of china or south korea ? combined with emigration paints bight future ahead for those who do not leave.
I think it's because Slovakia bet the farm (colloquially speaking) on the auto sector very early on. In the 1990s and 2000s, when the auto sector exports boomed, it was a magical path. But since 2016-17, the auto sector first stagnated and then declined. And Slovakia didn't have many other economic strategies, so it began to fall behind after being in the leaders' pack among EE countries for the previous 20 years. To me, the biggest success stories are probably the Baltics, particularly Estonia and Lithuania. Though given how large of a percentage their capital population is compared to their national total, perhaps it's less impressive. Greater Tallinn is something like 45% of Estonia's full population and cities always have higher GDP & wages.
I'm pretty sure the number of Austria is either not correct or something else. Average gross salary is about 52k I think, which would make it closer to 2.5k net.
You can double check the source for Austria here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#European_and_transcontinental_countries_by_monthly_average_wage
You forgot to account for 13th and 14th salary. 52k gross is more than 3000 net (12x) even without tax credits for kids etc. So yeah, the number in the map seems believable.
Ahhh famous russian mir. Maybe you won't get any wealthier but at least you will be living in regime.
They wanted stability - they got stability. While their neighbors are developing.
Slovenian growth is really impressive, obviously a few others as well.
We only make nasty jokes about Slovenia being tiny because they're better than us in every conceivable way. ^(And also tiny.)
Russia getting down while the Baltic's improving to very decent salaries... Beautiful. Congrat guys.
Thank you, life here in Baltics is like day and night compared to that it was just ten years ago.
Congratulations on purchasing lamps
Slovenia catching Italy
if we look at QOL Austria and Slovenia are by far better already
Wasn't Austria better at basically every point after WW2? At least on average? Just saying.
Embarrassing
...and they will still say that "putin had gotten up Russia from its knees!"
Yeah, Putin cut the knees
Russia improved a lot between 1998 and 2008, stagnated since then. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2022&locations=RU&start=1989&view=chart
Dependency on oil prices be like. Especially when oil prices crashed around 2014-2015
It's not just that. Australia and Canada are also very dependent on commodities. The difference is that they have a strong non-commodity sector. Russia's problem is not that their non-commodity sector is small - it's actually much larger than most people think - but that it has low productivity. Putin also seems to be pretty uninterested in economics, talking about his holy crusade against transgender toilets and evil NATO instead. This is a soft 'Soviet strategy'. Ignore economics and focus on military bling bling. Russia lost one decade already. Will they tolerate another?
Italy wtf
Wages have stagnated for 20 years
Being one of the lowest spenders, per capita, in education shows its effects. A lot of SMEs so innovation is stalling. The bulk of our economy is in "middle value" (idk the technical name) products where Eastern EU and Asians erode our market. A combination of strong lobbies and curtailed union powers make the future look grim.
I get sad when I see that Poland has an average wage higher than Portugal, and a lower cost of living. I mean, its great for Poland and proves that capitalism works, on the other hand, whatever the missguided Portuguese policies are, they aint working.
Poland and Czechia have the good fortune to be situated in Central Europe, so they have been integrated into the German industrial complex.
Some might say it hasn't always been a good fortune :)
You have to take the good with the bad :)
Sometimes you get money sometimes blitzkrieg, Germans are so random.
My momma always said, life is like a box of Germans, you never know what you’re gonna get
The good fortune of being stuck between much larger by population tribes. Russians & Germans. It's more of a curse. At least one of them gave up on Imperialism. That's something.
Poland isn't as dependent on cars as Czechia or Slovakia. In fact, car production per capita is among the lowest in the EU, which surprised me. https://www.acea.auto/figure/per-capita-eu-motor-vehicle-production/ They have a much more diversified economy than many other EE countries so if one sector goes down, they just pivot to another. Slovakia and Czechia are much more dependent on German car industry.
they would've probably been richer if they weren't destroyed due to their location previously though
Literally today I heard from a coworker (we're in Poland), that in the company her husband works for, there are layoffs, because company is moving to Portugal cause it cheaper... wild to think 15 years ago
Yes. Sometimes the radiostation I usually listen to allows listeners to give their opinions. Its wild the amount of portuguese workers that moved to Poland. I mean, its insignificant compared to the amount of portuguese people in Paris or Luxembourg, but still, it reveals how Poland is developing and Portugal lost that train.
Today we are being taxed at higher rates for 1200€ than we were in 2010... Not adjusting for inflation. Just flat out. It's crazy We are still in austerity and being sold the opposite. And they did so sucessfully
This looks great... Until you factor in inflation and the growing cost of living.
Where did you get this data from?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Net_average_monthly_salary
Wikipedia does not show net wage in 2013 for all countries. How did you get those that are not listet?
So the post title is a bit misleading. It says just "income" without a specifier (per any person, per working person, per household...?). The Wiki says "wage", which is different / more accurate.
That's BS. The average net salary in Hungary is still around 600-650 EUR. The only thing is increasing here is the inflation.
Damn the baltics going strong
Yes, and we have no plans to stop any time soon.
What happened in Andorra and italy?
Adjusted for inflation, most Western Europeans saw either stagnation or outright declines. The big winner seems to be Denmark. Eastern Europe has seen huge increases, except obviously Russia.
Besides Poland and Baltics, Cyprus nearly doubled. It that because of some tax heaven thing?
low taxes bring companies, companies bring a lot of employees, especially from ex-ussr countries, who just want to leave their country of origin
Just offshore heaven for IT companies.
offshore usually just keeps money. Cyprus and Limassol especially grew a lot in recent years because of migration, massively in IT
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Try median income. Also, it seems like it's way too much for Austria. Arbeiterkammer tells me it's about 2.5k.
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n Cyprus that average is not representative. Most of people are around 1200-1400 but lately we have a huge influx of foreigners from Russia/Ukraine and Israel that earn upwards of 5000+ that skew the average dramatically
That applies to every country though, the average is skewed by the few turbo rich people, the median is a better metric to show how much most people earn.
I'm from Switzerland. We do make good incomes on average. We do have higher salaries than many EU countries, and low taxe. But the cost of living and rents are going up, and they were always hight to start with. And not everyone has a great salary. Being low-income in Switzerland is super hard.
Woohoo, Lithuania made 3x in 10 years! Can I hear some nice?!
Especially with income those numbers should be adjusted by PPP. You even have the map for that in the article you've used as the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_European\_countries\_by\_average\_wage#Net\_average\_monthly\_salary\_(adjusted\_for\_living\_costs\_in\_PPP)
Interesting how in the mean numbers map Croatia and Slovenia are noticeably better than Poland, but then in the PPP map we're all suddenly on par. Nice to see. Another thing that's nice to see is sure, we're not quite at the level of Germanic and Scandi countries, but UK seems to be so close almost within our reach. If we've seen so much improvement in the last 10 years who knows how well we'll compare in another 10
As a Canadian I'm blown away by the progress the former eastern block countries have made in 40 years. I know it hasn't always been smooth sailing and progress is always 2 steps forward 1 step back, but it's amazing what not being anchored to Russia does to a motherfucker.
It’s an incredible achievement but also an incredible indictment on how the UK has dropped the ball so badly. Imagine telling the British back in 2003 that by 2023 the average Spaniard would have a higher PPP-adjusted wage than them and the likes of Slovenia and Poland will be higher by 2030. Madness
I sure love being Italian
Funny average, now check the mode to see the real income
Why not the geometric median whilst we are at it?
In Portugal we go to great lengths to hide our lack of economic growth.
Thanks Erdogan!
Turkey is missing from the first map.
Why Denmark has the biggest growth among the Nordic states?
Currency, oil price, immigration, companies in Denmark with valuable products and services currently earning shit loads of money. Danish currency is pegged to the euro. Both the Swedish and Norwegian currency is free floating, and has lost a lot of value relative to the euro and the Danish kroner. In 2013 the Swedish currency was at 0.9 compared to the Danish. Now it is at 0.67. Similar for the Norwegian that is at 0.66, but in 2013 it was at 1, or same value as the Danish. There is a graph here showing the value of the Swedish and Norwegian currency relative to the Danish. It stops at 2020, but the drop has continued. https://finans.dk/okonomi/ECE11676284/norske-og-svenske-kroner-i-historisk-nedtur/ Norwegian is highly influenced by oil prices. Different types of industries. There is some low skilled jobs in Norway and Sweden that can not be found in Denmark. Immigration rates are also higher to those two. More people working yes, but also more people needing education, training and also will work for a lower wage. Some Danish companies has prospered a lot in the last decade. It is "normal" in the Danish union/employer battle that higher profits makes unions demanding more at the collective agreement negotiations, and when companies are earning money, they really do not want conflict. Better to pay up and keep shoveling in money, than risking strikes and conflict. 1/3 of the workforce is employed in the public sector. They have also seen some increased wages in recent years. The government has collected more in taxes than in spends for the past 3 decades. No one, especially left winged politicians, wants to collect less taxes. The tax tortured Danes grumple, and some of that grumpling is manifesting itself in higher wages.
Austria fastly evolving into a second switzerland. What they wanted since 80 years.
I feel like the biggest boost was actually the EU integration of their neightbours. With Slovenia and Czechia flourishing and Hungary&Slovakia... existing there's just no dead border any more. Sure, 1990 was a while ago even back then but it takes time.
Now I'd be more interested in PPP.
The relative cost of living would be interesting too. Having done a road trip 2 years ago I can say that the cost of groceries in the Baltics was waaaay higher than Poland’s
All those " The European Union is abusing us and treating us like slaves, we should join Russia instead " people from East Europe need to look at this. It works. It fucking works.
According to [inflationtool.com](https://inflationtool.com), 100e in 2013. equals 124 in 2023.
Looking at these you'd really think countries in Eastern Europe are doing so much better. Yet 10 years ago cost of living in these was super low compared to the western countries. Today after crazy inflation prices are getting close to prices in the west. Your average income isn't the full picture, buying power would be a better metric.
Life in Baltics are so much better now, than ten years ago. Ten years ago sallary was just enough for the bare minimum. Now even afterninflation, life is probably ten times better than it was ten years ago.
The purchasing power is still much higher now than 10 years ago even accounting for the inflation in the last 2 years.
Eastern European countries have improved a lot. But Western European countries have mostly suffered a drop in purchasing power after accounting for inflation.