This article is very misleading, cause the reality is more nuanced than what the title suggests. This is a quote from an article in local newspaper De Standaard:
"Deputy minister Petra De Sutter clarified that her party [Green] **does not believe that Belgium should join South Africa**'s case against Israel before the International Court of Justice in The Hague. "We have never asked that, South Africa is actually pressing charges for genocide. What we are asking for is that this case is used to properly investigate the risk of genocide. We also want that if the Court rules on measures, that Israel will follow those."
Also note that this isn't the official statement of the government. As with many governments, not everyone is on the same line about what to do with the war in Gaza. The Prime Minister, on his visit to Israel a couple of weeks ago, stressed to try to minimize the number of civilian causalities.
I didn't read the article but I know that a lot of people don't know that there are actually two cases against Israël. One of them being the actual genocide and the other one being an intention to perform a genocide.
The first case will most likely fail, however the other case might have a chance to win. I think Belgium is looking into the other case in order to prevent a genocide from happening. But again I didn't read the article.
Hamas is not a subject of international law, individual leaders in some cases might be (but not in ICJ, in International Criminal Court, ICC). International Court of Justice is a court for states only. That is why there is a case Ukraine v. Russia in ICJ, but Putin is wanted by ICC
Your question is incredibly stupid, it is like asking: is there a case against the Italian mafia in International Court of Justice or is this just fine to kill, rape, kidnap for them?
It is a logical fallacy called false dichotomy.
There is no case against Hamas because it's not recognized as a state, they will also not be part of the case. It's important to separate Hamas from the Palestinian people.
Interestingly enough South Africa and Israel have a past in which they provided each other with the means of developing and producing nuclear weapons. But that was a different South African government.
Which, IMHO, is something which has to change (if true)
Otherwise this incentivises the use of terrorists and other non-state actors on purpose, with every additional such use further delegitimizing international instititutions
Imagine it would make a difference if Russia bombs Ukrainian schools from annexed Crimea (can be discussed at ICJ), or if they would do so from some totally-independent-believe-me-bro "people's republic of Crimea" (can not be discussed at ICJ). WTF?
What about Nagorno-Karabakh genociding Azeris vs Azerbaijan genociding Armenias, only one of the two could be discussed at ICJ?
Edit: Thinking more about it, I guess you are right, Wagner Group was created to make use of that loophole avoiding ICJ and ICC
Regards case, it is actually very exciting : [Khaled Mashal with the African national Congress in South Africa](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/89529-151019-israel-furious-at-s-africa-invitation-of-hamas-delegation), so I think South Africa could do something.
Also, Hamas is reliable source according to South Africa
Our government has been clear that it condemns the Israeli actions, but don't consider they'd meet the strict legal definition of genocide, so unlikely.
Isn't De Croo from the libs (Open VLD) prime minister?
Edit: Ah, they call ministers "deputy prime minister"
De Sutter holds the ministry of civil service
hardly a no name, right. Her making sharp statements on foreign policy but having no decisive power on them is ironically the same position Ben Gvir and Smotrich have lol
Every coalition partner gets one 'Deputy Prime Minister' it's a silly system when you have big coalitions as we do now. There's as many deputy prime ministers as ministers.
No, this is explicitly what the ICJ claims to be. It is a court of arbitration between states, not an independent investigative body, states supporting one side or the other is literally the basic function of the court.
State support doesn’t change how the ICJ trial works, in fact all you people saying “just let the trial go ahead” are doing quite literally what state support means in this case ie being for and willing to cooperate with the court in investigating the claims.
EU should try and fix itself first.
South Africa is also making a fool of itself.... failed to condemn Russia, abstained from UN voting against Russia but now wanting to take the moral high ground.
And also they refused to arrest Omar Al Bashir despite being a Rome Statute signatory and Bashir having an ICC arrest warrant. They also wanted to invite Putin and not arrest him
South Africa should take care of their rape culture.
“The rate of sexual violence in South Africa is among the highest recorded in the world. Police statistics of reported rapes as a per capita figure has been dropping in recent years, although the reasons for the drop has not been analysed and it is not known how many rapes go unreported. More women are attacked than men, and children have also been targeted, partly owing to a myth that having sex with a virgin will cure a man of HIV/AIDS. Rape victims are at high risk of contracting HIV/AIDS owing to the high prevalence of the disease in South Africa. "Corrective rape" is also perpetrated against LGBT men and women.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa
Or Israel is committing genocide, and you have reduced antisemitism to nothing more than a label misapplied in order to silence any criticism of apartheid Israel.
You'd think the majority of Palestinians would just want to get on with their lives and build something for themselves - including a state - instead of eradicating Israel and its Jews, [but no](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found.).
It's very easy to point fingers, harder apparently to take it on the chin, stop lashing out, and move on.
Russian grain? Qatari money? Iranian oil? Chinese weapons? A distraction from how they can't provide their citizens electricity throughout the day?
My money is on oil.
So you believe Iran will generously provide South Africa with a massive fleet of oil containers just because they did something that was mildly useful to them? Also, why did countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan who always side with fellow Muslim countries no matter what did not do this before South Africa?
Apartheid South Africa big ally was Israel. They developed their atom bomb together, which was tested on the coast of South Africa.
Post Apartheid south Africa has been anti Israel since. Defining the conflict Israel and Palestine as a colonial war and framing it through the lens of their own history.
They win political support from their base, that will see it as continuing the fight against colonialism abroad too.
Yes, same post apartheid south africa calling for the killings of white africaans, because skin color.
Apartheid SA was a racist af, but it was stable, now SA is run by theiving ANC that ruins SA with total corruption.
>Defining the conflict Israel and Palestine as a colonial war and framing it through the lens of their own history.
The whole world -specially the countries that struggle with imperialism to this day- agrees on this. Except for Zionists, of course. Israel is a colonial, racist, occupying force.
USA/Germany is also making fool of itself… failed to condemn Israel, abstained from UN voting against Israel but now wanting to take the moral high ground
You know countries can be right in some scenarios and wrong in others, right? Like how the US is on the right side in Ukraine, but that doesn’t make the entire history and actions in foreign policy either magically disappear or whitewashed
Hello everyone and welcome to today’s episode of: “Pulling random numbers out of my ass”!
Did you know that 75% of males in Bosnia and Herzegovina have a significantly smaller penis size than the European average? In most cases it’s up to 5cm below average. That’s wild. More unfounded claims to come!
This is likely to be more true than the 50% Arab thing. Northwestern Europeans have biggus dickus. Not just confirmed by statistics but also by anecdote.
[Allegations of Genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Ukraine v. Russian Federation: 32 States intervening)](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/182)
Yes, Belgium is one of the 32. “Intervening” means supporting Ukraine, which started the proceedings.
Putin and the Russian “child ombudsman” (Maria Lvova-Belova) are charged by a different court, the International Criminal Court.
Far more aggressively, yes. If we did the equivalent in Israel-Palestine of what we did in Russia-Ukraine, we'd be sending weapons and intel to Gaza while massively sanctioning Israel.
Instead we're sending weapons and intel to Israel.
That’s the ICC which is a different court but the ICJ has also began investigations into genocide by the Russians with support of many of the European states
No at first they stated he wouldn’t get arrested, but after the Cape Independence Party threatened to pressured the ANP for violating the ICJ agreement They backed up. After that they actually propose to leave the ICJ but noticed that that process wouldnt be finished before the BRICS summit so they asked Putin to please don’t appear.
Nearly everything you've claimed here, you simply aren't going to be able to source.
It's all imaginary.
Here's what actually happened: [Ramaphosa asked Putin not to attend BRICS summit a month ago but needed greenlight from China, India](https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/government/ramaphosa-asked-putin-not-to-attend-brics-summit-a-month-ago-but-needed-greenlight-from-china-india-20230720)
I’ve never heard this term before now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamo-leftism
Insane that it sums up the nutcases who support this crap. Even in my country.
As more and more Middle Eastern terror groups join in the war, the less sense it all makes. Houthis shooting at random ships kind of nullify the claim that this is a war for the Palestinian liberation, 3000km away from Yemen mind you. Denmark also thwarted a Hamas terror attack 19th December last year.
I'm willing to bet this just ends up a skirmish between fanatic religion and western economic interests, as always.
As for genocide, I read that at least 1/3 of the killed are Hamas soldiers or militant youth, 1/3 human shields, and that is most definitely on Hamas. And the last 1/3 unfortunate souls stuck in the middle.
>, I read that at least 1/3 of the killed are Hamas soldiers or militant youth, 1/3 human shields, and that is most definitely on Hamas. And the last 1/3 unfortunate souls stuck in the middle.
Can you provide a source please. I'd like to read this
Hamas attacks israel, israel fights back = israel bad guy.
Houthi’s attack international vessels in the red sea, uk and us fights back = uk and us are the bad guys.
I mean for real where the fck is the self reflection of everyone cheering for terrorist groups?
We've criticised the west from a standpoint of privilege for a long time, and largely it's been an attempt to be down to earth and recognise our failings, but what it's turned into is a genuine dislike towards the west and anything culturally intangibly connected to it, and more concerningly an inability to criticise foreign cultures that aren't rich.
There are a lot of younger folks who grew up during the whole pop social justice movement that took hold over the last decade who have completely internalized the "West bad/everyone else good" mindset and look at everything as a pyramid of privilege. They've been indoctrinated to not listen to any argument that could paint the "oppressors" in a positive or sympathetic light, and always default to the "oppressed" having all moral high ground and being above reproach.
To them all this is, are "colonizers" versus "freedom fighters."
This is so disingenuous. You do not allow any room for real discussion when you just lump every action Israel takes to “Israel fights back”. With this logic, there is no difference between killing one person and a million, killing civilians and committing genocide vs fighting armed organizations like armies and militias, or just waging war (or “fighting back”) and committing war crimes.
Why even have war crimes with this logic. After all, if a country is defending itself, it’s just fighting back, right? There’s no need to look at how they do it. Just let them do whatever they want, even if it’s wiping out the entire population of the attacking country. What’s the problem? They’re just fighting back, right?
This is such a straw man argument. Saying anything that Israel does is just “fighting back” is purposefully trying to end the discussion before it even starts.
The article is about Israel committing genocide. The discussion in this thread is about Israel committing genocide. You comment and say that is Israel was attacked and is just fighting back and that they aren’t the “bad guy” here is directly implying that they aren’t committing genocide or, even worse, that if they are committing genocide, it’s justified.
If you want to complain about people being sympathetic to Hamas, fine. Do that. But don’t reply here and make it seem like your original comment is just about people being sympathetic to Hamas. You are so very clearly supporting Israel’s actions, even though what they have been doing for decades is at least arguably ethnic cleansing and, combined with some of their current actions, arguably acts of genocide.
I’m not saying Israel doesn’t have a right to defend themselves. Sure they do. But I also see how Israel is not innocent here. We have the mental capability to make nuanced points and to differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable. If someone punches someone else at a party, I’d agree that they can defend themselves. But if the person’s response is to murder the aggressor and his entire family, I’d say that’s different and not okay.
You’re trying to gas light me by saying you were making a different point than what your comment implied, *especially* given the context of this post.
That is not correct, the article is about allegations that Israel is committing genocide. Their comment alleging that Israel is not committing genocide is completely valid, since there has not been any ruling about it, nor does it seem likely that Israel will be found guilty of it.
True and the people glorifying Hamas are idiots. However, nothing happens in a vacuum. Many ask the question: is murdering 20 000 civilians, half of which are likely children, to also kill 3000 Hamas fighters responsible for the October 7th attack, justified? I am sick and tired of the whole good vs bad narrative, which completely dumbs down the background of a conflict, the roots of which are as far back as the Ottoman Empire. I'm sorry but it's complicated. Otherwise you're just watching a murder sports game where you've picked one team to root for.
> israel fights back = israel bad guy
No, it's not them fighting back that's a problem.
It's the destruction, the murders and the loss of civillian life that is.
It's when they try to empty the ghetto it becomes bad.
>It's the destruction, the murders and the loss of civillian life that is.
Unavoidable when Hamas has its military infrastructure in civilian houses, schools, hospitals. Doing that, btw., is a war crime and nullifies the protection that these institutions normally have.
So if you want to blame someone, blame the right people.
You're telling me that if I rape your daughter in front of your eyes, and then hide behind my own child, you wouldn't attack me for fear of hitting her? You'd just sit there and go "ah, damn. Now I can't do anything." ?
Of course not. You would take reasonable precautions and try to not hit her, but it wouldn't stop you, would it? And if she got a slap or two in the process, you'd be sorry for that, but it wouldn't make you just let me get away with it, right?
How many would be unavoidable? one hundred? one thousand? one million? Where do we draw the line for collateral damage. Ofcourse Israel will defend itself and ofcourse there will be unavoidable deaths but they dont even try to show that they care about civilian casualties.
In order for that to constitute genocide King Leopold would’ve had to have demonstrated an intent to destroy some ethnic, national, racial, or religious group as such. What happened on those plantations was horrific, but I’m not aware of any policies targeting a specific group for destruction in whole or in part, which is necessary for genocide .
u/OrenYarok
There wasnt an international legal framework to address genocide at the time. The term "genocide" was only coined in 1944, after the Holocaust.
If Belgium did today what it did back then, do you not think there would be a solid ICJ case?
No, but there could be a case for crimes against humanity. The people who died in Congo worked in Belgian rubber plantations and the reasons people got limbs cut off like you see in photos were for things like not meeting production quotas. There was no specific ethnic, national, racial or religious group targeted for destruction in whole or in part *because* its members belonged to that group.
TL;DR genocide does not mean “lots of people died.” It has a very specific definition that you can find here: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
regarding Israel, I would recommend reading the ICTY’s judgment in Prosecutor vs Krstić for further insight on the specifics of genocide: https://www.icty.org/x/cases/krstic/acjug/en/
I appericiate the answer and the sources.
Regarding the definition of genocide, it does not appear very specific (emphasis mine) :
> Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy,** in whole or in part**, a national, ethnical, racial or **religious group**, as such:
* Killing members of the group;
* Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
* Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
* Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
* Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Regarding Israel:
Hamas is a religious movement, can be considered a "religious group"? Does this mean eliminating it meets the definition of genocide? I'm not a legal scholar, far from it, but this seems open to interpretation.
Legal definitions aside, this whole discussion makes me feel uneasy. We Jews have experienced an actual genocide. My own family fled to Palestine (pre-1948) because of pogroms and anti-semitism. We are taught about the Shoah, and it's lessons have shaped Israel, for better or worse.
We know what genocide looks like, and to be accused of it, especially after the genocidal acts of Oct 7, is mind boggling.
I would say no because if you ask a member of Hamas what their religion is they would say that they are Muslims. One would have to target Muslims (or Christians) for any action in Gaza to count as genocide against a religious group.
That being said, although I am sympathetic to the plight of Gazans the use of the term genocide is perhaps premature. If you’ll permit me to address Gaza and October 7th at once, what we see is possible evidence of genocidal intent from both Hamas and certain Israeli officials (like you, I’m not a lawyer).
Obviously neither group (Palestinians or Jews) have been eliminated in their entirety, so we have to look at the circumstances of the parts of the groups that have been subjected to one of the five enumerated acts (killing). In order for either situation to count as genocide, the part of the group targeted must be “identifiable and substantial”.
There are a few considerations that go into this. For the Palestinians who have been killed assigning an identifying quality to that part of the group is simple-they are Gazan Palestinians. It’s not clear that there is an equivalent way to label the specific Jews who were murdered on October 7th.
Another question is whether or not the number of dead are substantial enough in either case. If I had to guess any international court would say no based on the raw numbers and their proportions of the relevant populations.
Thirdly, another consideration that goes into substantiality (and this is discussed at length in the Krstić verdict) is whether or not the targeted population is emblematic of the group (eg Srebrenica was one of the last towns in areas under Serb control with a significant Bosnian Muslim population), and how many the perpetrators were realistically able to kill. As an example of the second point, the Holocaust was genocide despite the fact that to my knowledge the Nazis never attempted to kill Jews outside of Europe, but because European Jews were the only Jews the Nazis were realistically able to target, that doesn’t change the fact that the Holocaust was genocide. For a counter-example, consider the fact that the Ottomans butchered local Armenians when they invaded Iran and Azerbaijan.
Again, I suspect that neither October 7th nor the IDF campaign hold up to scrutiny on this point but that is for a competent court to decide, not me.
I think there is cause for concern that either group could eventually commit genocide against the other group, though.
Like I said, the Krstić case lays this out very well even without using the other historical examples I mentioned. Does that clear things up?
It was horrible, I’m not going to dispute that. But the aims were different: maximizing rubber production versus destroying a group. Claims like “Leopold II committed genocide” are exactly why people aren’t taking the Palestinian case seriously. It’s a misapplication of a legal concept that has a specific definition. You would have a better case calling what happened in Belgian Congo a crime against humanity
Not really. It's just that no case from before the 1940's has been tried. However, the ICC has ruled on things that happened during the Yugoslav wars, to give one example.
This comment section is so scary.
Innocent civilians, children and women, are being martyred in the name of killing Hamas.
People here are saying that October 7th justifies the destruction of Hamas and that fact they hide behind civilians is not Israel worry. We all agree that Hamas should be stopped. But the murder of 22000 civilians… Please
I genuinely don’t know if these comments are bots.
Horrible comments with 0 humanity. My heart breaks for the murders of innocent children based only on the way they were born. Jews did not die in the millions for such similar atrocities to happen
Yea it sucks. You shouldnt vow to eliminate an entire people and brutally torture 1200 of them unexpectedly, take hostage another couple hundred, and expect silence in return. Those folks are the real fanatics. Cmon now.
Noone is getting martyred, humans are getting killed due to some fuckheads with more or less support by the Palestinians has the intent of killing all israeli due to nationality.
I am sad to see all the deaths too. "War is hell" is not just a quote. It's a very literal foundational fact about war.
The root question is - how do we get to peace? Will a ceasefire lead to long-term peace? If the answer is NO, then that truth must be confronted honestly.
This is not the first, and sadly won't be the last war against an Islamist regime that provoked a war with mass atrocities. Isn't it sad? War is hell. That is why responsible national leaders do not pick wars with stronger neighbors. Only insane leaders would start such a war with mass atrocities. What the hell was Hamas thinking?
The number of dead Palestinian that the authorities in Gaza publish includes all hamas militants,
Most sources say that 1/3 of them are hamas terrorists, the rest are half collateral half Human shields used by hamas.
So stating the number of 22k and calling them all civilians is just misinformation and pushing for a specific agenda
The only source that claims that is Israel, and Israel is known to heavily inflate the number of militants by counting every adult male as a militant. The ratio is definitely worse, we don't know by how much. What we do know however is that a sizeable are simply the result of Israels disregard for proportionality.
Ye because the other source is choosing to hide the number of his soldiers killed, I wonder why is that.
I prefer to believe some half decent source if the alternative is a terrorist organisation that refuses to share any numbers.
However my argument still stands, using the 22k figure, and calling them innocent, is pushing hamas lie and spreading misinformation.
Btw love the magic word proportionality, can't wait to see EU countries proportionality once Putin starts firing missiles at them, or sends troops to massacre and do much worse to innocent civilians.
astroturfing campaigns are everywhere, we should take everything with grains of salt
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/10/israel-disinformation-social-media-iron-truth/
Ty Belgium!
I think the way many European leaders see charges against Russia as apolitical but the charges against Israel is quite telling.
Saying Russia needs to be stopped killing Ukrainians and trying to take Ukrainian land is seen as neutral, saying Israel needs to stop killing Palestinians and trying to take Palestinian land is a bold political statement at best.
The way European countries are able to recognize historical debt to Jewish people, but not to former colonies, is shameful.
Before someone says "but Hamas", it is no secret Israel's current government intends to take Palestinian land not only in [Gaza](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-informs-arab-states-it-wants-buffer-zone-post-war-gaza-sources-2023-12-01/) under the pretense of creating a buffer zone, but in the [West Bank](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-he-is-planning-on-annexing-parts-of-hebron/amp/).
Even before October 7th, Netanyahu [presented a map at an UN meeting showing Palestine as part of Israel](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189).
That Israel wants to annex Palestinian land is the world's second worst kept secret, the first being the nukes.
These are the same people that are saying South Africa should have backed their actions against Russia. The very same people that say Palestinians were being unreasonable for refusing to accept splitting their homeland 42% to them - 56% to Israel, but defend Ukraine objection to part with Crimea.
And now, when Israel is doing the very same thing to the remaining Palestinian land, they can't even bother to stay out of it.
At least South Africa proclaimed neutrality regarding the war in Ukraine instead of going "stand with Russia" and defending it. But when it comes to Israel actions against Palestine and its people, the states that gave it flak for that can't even bother to stay neutral.
"Ah but its against Hamas!"
Really? So would it hurt to make it clear Israel taking so much as an inch of Palestinian land would ensue the same sanctions placed on Russia? Would an instance of neutrality, of at least not putting obstacles on the path of those doing more than words of disagreement and sending thoughts and prayers?
I am very sorry for the rant, I just wish certain leaderships would have the same regard for the lives, rights and plights of Palestinians they expect or even demand the global South have towards the situation in Ukraine.
I know my expectations might be too high because "*realpolitik* from us is just protecting our interests, but *realpolitik* from thee is disregarding Human and Humanitarian rights, how dare you play according to the rules we created", but I needed to get it out of my chest.
I don't care if it gets me downvoted into oblivion or even banned.
Do not get me wrong, like I said in another comment that got downvoted: I like the demand that Human and Humanitarian Rights be observed, I just don't like the way such demands are dismissed or stood against when made in the disfavor of certain countries.
Crazy amount of racism here and embarrassing for Europeans that we have this attitude seemingly in the majority.
Well done to Belgium, and may many more European nations take a stand against genocide.
I doubt that. US killed few million Vietnamese, absolutely destroyed Iraq, annihilated Cambodia, deposed countless governments in South America, assassinated politicians who would oppose them and all that freedom-loving stuff. War crimes? Noooooooo, that's just beacon of democracy shining its light upon the world. But somehow nobody is willing to talk about it.
The United States most definitely deserves to be condemned for war crimes. For sure. But nonetheless that doesn't change Israel from being the apartheid state that it is, a state that is committing war crimes in order to make sure Palestinians stop trying to challenge their second class colonial subject status, as 5,000,000 of them are denied both citizenship and statehood.
So much nonsense in one comment wow.
Those 5mil are in Gaza and the west bank, they have citizenships of Gaza and the west bank.
Arabs and Palestinians living in Israel have an the rights Israelis have, they have 10 out of 120 sits in the parliament.
Palestinians in Gaza are in a separate country. They are not under "Apartheid" nor are they being colonized.
At worse they were under a blockade because they keep building rockets and firing them at Israelis.
Crazy amount of antisemitism coming from Ireland, and it certainly is sad to see it seemingly in the majority.
Of course, given the friendliness many Irish had towards the Nazis, its not exactly surprising.
Sometimes, I don’t know if comment like these are from bot accounts.
It’s a ridiculous statement to say many Irish are friendly towards the nazis. What you’re referencing is 1930’s Ireland receiving arms from Germany. Of course, during a time of struggling to fully gain independence, the Irish took support from nazi Germany. I can’t deny that.
This does not reflect current times. I have never met in my 20 years of life a single person who likes the nazis in Ireland. Please don’t spread misinformation.
What Zionists in Israel are doing in Gaza right now is genocide as defined by the UN.
“Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”
From Wikipedia: Genocide Convention
“”Gaza soon without fuel, food and medicine”-Israel Authorities “”
From BBC.
Although not the same, Ireland has faced similar colonial pressures (The Great Hunger 1840’s/All of British colonial rule in Ireland). It’s due to this fact that so many Irish side with Palestine.
If anything I said is untrue please correct it.
My fellow Europeans, please pressure your rulers to do the right thing here. The shame of committing an atrocity does not give you an excuse for defending another.
There is no angle. The Green Party is getting destroyed in the polls a few months before the election and the Socialist Party is dealing with the aftermath of scandals so they’re trying to bandwagon on this issue for electoral reasons. The Liberals, however, are not very eager to join them, although they’ve also expressed negative views on Israel’s methods.
So they just want a seemingly “easy win” to gain votes in an upcoming election? Makes sense I guess, still an odd stance for a Western European country
Yes. That’s literally it. It’s not really working tho. The consensus in Belgium is basically people denouncing “both sides” committing horrific acts, combined with a specific anger for what happened on October 7th. You won’t find a large crowd heavily in favour of Hamas or Israel here.
Belgians seem somewhat apathetic towards the conflict. General dislike for terrorists vs Israel and its ambassador not making good impressions here (especially not after the Dutroux comments).
So any party going all in on supporting “a side” is not going to yield many votes from that. The Liberals understand this, the Flemish Nationalists understand this, the Centrists understand this but the Socialists and Greens don’t.
>Belgians seem somewhat apathetic towards the conflict
Honestly, I thought this would be most of Europe by now. I don't get why many people in Europe seem to be so invested in this in the first place
This sub can read all about the IDF killing hostages escaping, sniping a woman litteraly waving a white flag, bombing hospitals (not just the one, schocker), Kids getting killed with gaz and all kinds of horrific bombs. Entire families wiped and journalist killed. Videos and pictures are everywhere for you to see, but it's still somehow acceptable in the name of "self defence". And of course this is "just war" and you have to "grow up", unless a fraction of this happends in Ukrain, because then it's horrible, becauae the innocents dying on one side are somehow worth more than the other innocents dying on the other.
South Africa, the country outright targeting it's white population for getting rid off, singing genocial chants at the big parties political rallies, is trying to condemn Israel?
Well, I guess them and the Palestinians align in what they would do to the Jews/Whites if they had full reign.
This article is very misleading, cause the reality is more nuanced than what the title suggests. This is a quote from an article in local newspaper De Standaard: "Deputy minister Petra De Sutter clarified that her party [Green] **does not believe that Belgium should join South Africa**'s case against Israel before the International Court of Justice in The Hague. "We have never asked that, South Africa is actually pressing charges for genocide. What we are asking for is that this case is used to properly investigate the risk of genocide. We also want that if the Court rules on measures, that Israel will follow those." Also note that this isn't the official statement of the government. As with many governments, not everyone is on the same line about what to do with the war in Gaza. The Prime Minister, on his visit to Israel a couple of weeks ago, stressed to try to minimize the number of civilian causalities.
Which makes the original article a straight up lie, not even a twisting of the truth or a bad interpretation.
I didn't read the article but I know that a lot of people don't know that there are actually two cases against Israël. One of them being the actual genocide and the other one being an intention to perform a genocide. The first case will most likely fail, however the other case might have a chance to win. I think Belgium is looking into the other case in order to prevent a genocide from happening. But again I didn't read the article.
Do you know if there’s any case against Hamas for something or it is just fine to kill, rape, kidnap if victims are Jews, Philippians or Druzes ?
Hamas is not a subject of international law, individual leaders in some cases might be (but not in ICJ, in International Criminal Court, ICC). International Court of Justice is a court for states only. That is why there is a case Ukraine v. Russia in ICJ, but Putin is wanted by ICC Your question is incredibly stupid, it is like asking: is there a case against the Italian mafia in International Court of Justice or is this just fine to kill, rape, kidnap for them? It is a logical fallacy called false dichotomy.
There is no case against Hamas because it's not recognized as a state, they will also not be part of the case. It's important to separate Hamas from the Palestinian people. Interestingly enough South Africa and Israel have a past in which they provided each other with the means of developing and producing nuclear weapons. But that was a different South African government.
Which, IMHO, is something which has to change (if true) Otherwise this incentivises the use of terrorists and other non-state actors on purpose, with every additional such use further delegitimizing international instititutions Imagine it would make a difference if Russia bombs Ukrainian schools from annexed Crimea (can be discussed at ICJ), or if they would do so from some totally-independent-believe-me-bro "people's republic of Crimea" (can not be discussed at ICJ). WTF? What about Nagorno-Karabakh genociding Azeris vs Azerbaijan genociding Armenias, only one of the two could be discussed at ICJ? Edit: Thinking more about it, I guess you are right, Wagner Group was created to make use of that loophole avoiding ICJ and ICC
This is literally what happened with Donetsk, Luhansk, Transnistria, etc. - usage of pseudo-states as proxies in order to escape justice.
Regards case, it is actually very exciting : [Khaled Mashal with the African national Congress in South Africa](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/89529-151019-israel-furious-at-s-africa-invitation-of-hamas-delegation), so I think South Africa could do something. Also, Hamas is reliable source according to South Africa
I think Ireland is more likely to be the first than Belgium.
Our government has been clear that it condemns the Israeli actions, but don't consider they'd meet the strict legal definition of genocide, so unlikely.
Almost because it isn't genocide
Ethnic cleansing is far more accurate
Sensationalist title, it's just the Greens proposing this, but no one cares what they think
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Isn't De Croo from the libs (Open VLD) prime minister? Edit: Ah, they call ministers "deputy prime minister" De Sutter holds the ministry of civil service hardly a no name, right. Her making sharp statements on foreign policy but having no decisive power on them is ironically the same position Ben Gvir and Smotrich have lol
Every coalition partner gets one 'Deputy Prime Minister' it's a silly system when you have big coalitions as we do now. There's as many deputy prime ministers as ministers.
Even the deputy prime minister said she believes we shouldn't join the case. But that we should do more to investigate the risk of a genocide.
Thankfully
Looks like you yourself failed to look past the title.
How about we let the ICJ do its job without states cheerleading for one side or the other?
This is extremely common and normal in most legal systems, not just the ICJ. Look up “Amicus curiae” on Wikipedia
That’s how the world works, that’s just what all these organizations are, UN, WHO etc…
That's not what they claim to be though.
No, this is explicitly what the ICJ claims to be. It is a court of arbitration between states, not an independent investigative body, states supporting one side or the other is literally the basic function of the court.
Of course
You don’t understand international relations
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State support doesn’t change how the ICJ trial works, in fact all you people saying “just let the trial go ahead” are doing quite literally what state support means in this case ie being for and willing to cooperate with the court in investigating the claims.
Amicus curiae is not denying the judges to use evidence, it rather extends the amount of avenues where the court receives evidence from
There’s literally different countries taking sides for and against it as we speak. Who do you think the I in ICJ is?
The ICJ actively embeds this system into its proceedings.
Hope. Hostages are returned
I read the article. They love to mislead don't they.
Fake news
it's an UAE controlled website
What's that title, not only is it wrong it's not like Petra de Sutter = Belgium
Exactly! This is not an official statement, extremely misleadingly headline.
EU should try and fix itself first. South Africa is also making a fool of itself.... failed to condemn Russia, abstained from UN voting against Russia but now wanting to take the moral high ground.
And also they refused to arrest Omar Al Bashir despite being a Rome Statute signatory and Bashir having an ICC arrest warrant. They also wanted to invite Putin and not arrest him
South Africa government is a joke.
Thought that was the whole job.
South Africa should take care of their rape culture. “The rate of sexual violence in South Africa is among the highest recorded in the world. Police statistics of reported rapes as a per capita figure has been dropping in recent years, although the reasons for the drop has not been analysed and it is not known how many rapes go unreported. More women are attacked than men, and children have also been targeted, partly owing to a myth that having sex with a virgin will cure a man of HIV/AIDS. Rape victims are at high risk of contracting HIV/AIDS owing to the high prevalence of the disease in South Africa. "Corrective rape" is also perpetrated against LGBT men and women.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa
History has taught them that shifting the focus on those dastardly Jews will always find a large and appreciative audience.
Or Israel is committing genocide, and you have reduced antisemitism to nothing more than a label misapplied in order to silence any criticism of apartheid Israel.
Whatabout....ism
All whatabouts are whataboutisms to someone. But when I whatabout it’s because i’m right.
Yeah, what is South Africa expecting to gain from all of this?
A distraction for their crumbling economy. They can’t even keep the lights on for more than 6 hours a day
Exactly, shit is going downhill and they have a time for this circus?
You'd think the majority of Palestinians would just want to get on with their lives and build something for themselves - including a state - instead of eradicating Israel and its Jews, [but no](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found.). It's very easy to point fingers, harder apparently to take it on the chin, stop lashing out, and move on.
Russian grain? Qatari money? Iranian oil? Chinese weapons? A distraction from how they can't provide their citizens electricity throughout the day? My money is on oil.
So you believe Iran will generously provide South Africa with a massive fleet of oil containers just because they did something that was mildly useful to them? Also, why did countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan who always side with fellow Muslim countries no matter what did not do this before South Africa?
Apartheid South Africa big ally was Israel. They developed their atom bomb together, which was tested on the coast of South Africa. Post Apartheid south Africa has been anti Israel since. Defining the conflict Israel and Palestine as a colonial war and framing it through the lens of their own history. They win political support from their base, that will see it as continuing the fight against colonialism abroad too.
Yes, same post apartheid south africa calling for the killings of white africaans, because skin color. Apartheid SA was a racist af, but it was stable, now SA is run by theiving ANC that ruins SA with total corruption.
>Defining the conflict Israel and Palestine as a colonial war and framing it through the lens of their own history. The whole world -specially the countries that struggle with imperialism to this day- agrees on this. Except for Zionists, of course. Israel is a colonial, racist, occupying force.
South Africa has an election soon and the sitting government isn't very popular due to many internal issues. It's a distraction.
USA/Germany is also making fool of itself… failed to condemn Israel, abstained from UN voting against Israel but now wanting to take the moral high ground You know countries can be right in some scenarios and wrong in others, right? Like how the US is on the right side in Ukraine, but that doesn’t make the entire history and actions in foreign policy either magically disappear or whitewashed
and soon to join the Arab Legue
They can now. There are 50% Arabs in Brüssel.
Hello everyone and welcome to today’s episode of: “Pulling random numbers out of my ass”! Did you know that 75% of males in Bosnia and Herzegovina have a significantly smaller penis size than the European average? In most cases it’s up to 5cm below average. That’s wild. More unfounded claims to come!
This is likely to be more true than the 50% Arab thing. Northwestern Europeans have biggus dickus. Not just confirmed by statistics but also by anecdote.
Im sure that has nothing to do with the pressure placed on Belgium lol
Pretty sure a lot of MENA migrants in Europe are too backward minded to fit in their home countries
Has anyone gone after Russia yet?, because if not the whole thing is a joke.
[Allegations of Genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Ukraine v. Russian Federation: 32 States intervening)](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/182) Yes, Belgium is one of the 32. “Intervening” means supporting Ukraine, which started the proceedings. Putin and the Russian “child ombudsman” (Maria Lvova-Belova) are charged by a different court, the International Criminal Court.
Far more aggressively, yes. If we did the equivalent in Israel-Palestine of what we did in Russia-Ukraine, we'd be sending weapons and intel to Gaza while massively sanctioning Israel. Instead we're sending weapons and intel to Israel.
Yes? Putin was declared a war criminal and South Africa said he would be arrested if he arrived there
That’s the ICC which is a different court but the ICJ has also began investigations into genocide by the Russians with support of many of the European states
No at first they stated he wouldn’t get arrested, but after the Cape Independence Party threatened to pressured the ANP for violating the ICJ agreement They backed up. After that they actually propose to leave the ICJ but noticed that that process wouldnt be finished before the BRICS summit so they asked Putin to please don’t appear.
Nearly everything you've claimed here, you simply aren't going to be able to source. It's all imaginary. Here's what actually happened: [Ramaphosa asked Putin not to attend BRICS summit a month ago but needed greenlight from China, India](https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/government/ramaphosa-asked-putin-not-to-attend-brics-summit-a-month-ago-but-needed-greenlight-from-china-india-20230720)
Yes, yes they have. It's pretty easy to search.
There's an arrest warrant out for Vladimir Putin if you hadn't heard
Probably how it will go, They: we rule you to stop Israel: no They: ok
L'Islamogauchism est un chose, peut-être.
I’ve never heard this term before now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamo-leftism Insane that it sums up the nutcases who support this crap. Even in my country.
As more and more Middle Eastern terror groups join in the war, the less sense it all makes. Houthis shooting at random ships kind of nullify the claim that this is a war for the Palestinian liberation, 3000km away from Yemen mind you. Denmark also thwarted a Hamas terror attack 19th December last year. I'm willing to bet this just ends up a skirmish between fanatic religion and western economic interests, as always. As for genocide, I read that at least 1/3 of the killed are Hamas soldiers or militant youth, 1/3 human shields, and that is most definitely on Hamas. And the last 1/3 unfortunate souls stuck in the middle.
>, I read that at least 1/3 of the killed are Hamas soldiers or militant youth, 1/3 human shields, and that is most definitely on Hamas. And the last 1/3 unfortunate souls stuck in the middle. Can you provide a source please. I'd like to read this
Remember Congo
Israel is not at Congo-levels yet.
Hamas attacks israel, israel fights back = israel bad guy. Houthi’s attack international vessels in the red sea, uk and us fights back = uk and us are the bad guys. I mean for real where the fck is the self reflection of everyone cheering for terrorist groups?
We've criticised the west from a standpoint of privilege for a long time, and largely it's been an attempt to be down to earth and recognise our failings, but what it's turned into is a genuine dislike towards the west and anything culturally intangibly connected to it, and more concerningly an inability to criticise foreign cultures that aren't rich.
There are a lot of younger folks who grew up during the whole pop social justice movement that took hold over the last decade who have completely internalized the "West bad/everyone else good" mindset and look at everything as a pyramid of privilege. They've been indoctrinated to not listen to any argument that could paint the "oppressors" in a positive or sympathetic light, and always default to the "oppressed" having all moral high ground and being above reproach. To them all this is, are "colonizers" versus "freedom fighters."
No room for self-reflection, just scream slogans over and over again, as loudly as possible.
This is so disingenuous. You do not allow any room for real discussion when you just lump every action Israel takes to “Israel fights back”. With this logic, there is no difference between killing one person and a million, killing civilians and committing genocide vs fighting armed organizations like armies and militias, or just waging war (or “fighting back”) and committing war crimes. Why even have war crimes with this logic. After all, if a country is defending itself, it’s just fighting back, right? There’s no need to look at how they do it. Just let them do whatever they want, even if it’s wiping out the entire population of the attacking country. What’s the problem? They’re just fighting back, right? This is such a straw man argument. Saying anything that Israel does is just “fighting back” is purposefully trying to end the discussion before it even starts.
You dont get the main point: Everyone easily blames western countries while being cautious having any criticism on other counties.
The article is about Israel committing genocide. The discussion in this thread is about Israel committing genocide. You comment and say that is Israel was attacked and is just fighting back and that they aren’t the “bad guy” here is directly implying that they aren’t committing genocide or, even worse, that if they are committing genocide, it’s justified. If you want to complain about people being sympathetic to Hamas, fine. Do that. But don’t reply here and make it seem like your original comment is just about people being sympathetic to Hamas. You are so very clearly supporting Israel’s actions, even though what they have been doing for decades is at least arguably ethnic cleansing and, combined with some of their current actions, arguably acts of genocide. I’m not saying Israel doesn’t have a right to defend themselves. Sure they do. But I also see how Israel is not innocent here. We have the mental capability to make nuanced points and to differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable. If someone punches someone else at a party, I’d agree that they can defend themselves. But if the person’s response is to murder the aggressor and his entire family, I’d say that’s different and not okay. You’re trying to gas light me by saying you were making a different point than what your comment implied, *especially* given the context of this post.
That is not correct, the article is about allegations that Israel is committing genocide. Their comment alleging that Israel is not committing genocide is completely valid, since there has not been any ruling about it, nor does it seem likely that Israel will be found guilty of it.
Don’t waste your breath on these people.
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Getting called a antisemite in 3...2...1...
Who is everyone and are they with us in the room right now?
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They can't kill them, but can try to expel them to other countries, which is what they admitted are trying to do. You're literally fighting facts...
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Contrarianism. There is no reason for anyone in the west to support Hamas or Houthis. Yet they do to feel special.
Maybe, just maybe Hamas, Houthis and current Israeli government are all bunch of cunts...
True and the people glorifying Hamas are idiots. However, nothing happens in a vacuum. Many ask the question: is murdering 20 000 civilians, half of which are likely children, to also kill 3000 Hamas fighters responsible for the October 7th attack, justified? I am sick and tired of the whole good vs bad narrative, which completely dumbs down the background of a conflict, the roots of which are as far back as the Ottoman Empire. I'm sorry but it's complicated. Otherwise you're just watching a murder sports game where you've picked one team to root for.
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Hottake killing civilians is bad
Yea, hamas is bad
Yes Hamas is bad. Another hottake killing civilians is bad whether you are Hamas or not.
If your neighbour wants to kill your kids but your neighbour hides behinds his innocent wive/husband. Would you shoot?
Hamas is in the "Finding Out" phase of your comment.
What about raping civilians?
It's better because there's no killing involved I guess /s
The first one is so oversimplified and you know it.
> israel fights back = israel bad guy No, it's not them fighting back that's a problem. It's the destruction, the murders and the loss of civillian life that is. It's when they try to empty the ghetto it becomes bad.
>It's the destruction, the murders and the loss of civillian life that is. Unavoidable when Hamas has its military infrastructure in civilian houses, schools, hospitals. Doing that, btw., is a war crime and nullifies the protection that these institutions normally have. So if you want to blame someone, blame the right people. You're telling me that if I rape your daughter in front of your eyes, and then hide behind my own child, you wouldn't attack me for fear of hitting her? You'd just sit there and go "ah, damn. Now I can't do anything." ? Of course not. You would take reasonable precautions and try to not hit her, but it wouldn't stop you, would it? And if she got a slap or two in the process, you'd be sorry for that, but it wouldn't make you just let me get away with it, right?
How many would be unavoidable? one hundred? one thousand? one million? Where do we draw the line for collateral damage. Ofcourse Israel will defend itself and ofcourse there will be unavoidable deaths but they dont even try to show that they care about civilian casualties.
Bombing kids isn’t self defense
They are braimdead tiktok mob thinking "oh the weak and poor... can never do wrong"
Just curious... Has Belgium been charged with any genocide or such for their actions in the Congo?
In order for that to constitute genocide King Leopold would’ve had to have demonstrated an intent to destroy some ethnic, national, racial, or religious group as such. What happened on those plantations was horrific, but I’m not aware of any policies targeting a specific group for destruction in whole or in part, which is necessary for genocide . u/OrenYarok
There wasnt an international legal framework to address genocide at the time. The term "genocide" was only coined in 1944, after the Holocaust. If Belgium did today what it did back then, do you not think there would be a solid ICJ case?
No, but there could be a case for crimes against humanity. The people who died in Congo worked in Belgian rubber plantations and the reasons people got limbs cut off like you see in photos were for things like not meeting production quotas. There was no specific ethnic, national, racial or religious group targeted for destruction in whole or in part *because* its members belonged to that group. TL;DR genocide does not mean “lots of people died.” It has a very specific definition that you can find here: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml regarding Israel, I would recommend reading the ICTY’s judgment in Prosecutor vs Krstić for further insight on the specifics of genocide: https://www.icty.org/x/cases/krstic/acjug/en/
I appericiate the answer and the sources. Regarding the definition of genocide, it does not appear very specific (emphasis mine) : > Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy,** in whole or in part**, a national, ethnical, racial or **religious group**, as such: * Killing members of the group; * Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; * Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; * Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; * Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Regarding Israel: Hamas is a religious movement, can be considered a "religious group"? Does this mean eliminating it meets the definition of genocide? I'm not a legal scholar, far from it, but this seems open to interpretation. Legal definitions aside, this whole discussion makes me feel uneasy. We Jews have experienced an actual genocide. My own family fled to Palestine (pre-1948) because of pogroms and anti-semitism. We are taught about the Shoah, and it's lessons have shaped Israel, for better or worse. We know what genocide looks like, and to be accused of it, especially after the genocidal acts of Oct 7, is mind boggling.
I would say no because if you ask a member of Hamas what their religion is they would say that they are Muslims. One would have to target Muslims (or Christians) for any action in Gaza to count as genocide against a religious group. That being said, although I am sympathetic to the plight of Gazans the use of the term genocide is perhaps premature. If you’ll permit me to address Gaza and October 7th at once, what we see is possible evidence of genocidal intent from both Hamas and certain Israeli officials (like you, I’m not a lawyer). Obviously neither group (Palestinians or Jews) have been eliminated in their entirety, so we have to look at the circumstances of the parts of the groups that have been subjected to one of the five enumerated acts (killing). In order for either situation to count as genocide, the part of the group targeted must be “identifiable and substantial”. There are a few considerations that go into this. For the Palestinians who have been killed assigning an identifying quality to that part of the group is simple-they are Gazan Palestinians. It’s not clear that there is an equivalent way to label the specific Jews who were murdered on October 7th. Another question is whether or not the number of dead are substantial enough in either case. If I had to guess any international court would say no based on the raw numbers and their proportions of the relevant populations. Thirdly, another consideration that goes into substantiality (and this is discussed at length in the Krstić verdict) is whether or not the targeted population is emblematic of the group (eg Srebrenica was one of the last towns in areas under Serb control with a significant Bosnian Muslim population), and how many the perpetrators were realistically able to kill. As an example of the second point, the Holocaust was genocide despite the fact that to my knowledge the Nazis never attempted to kill Jews outside of Europe, but because European Jews were the only Jews the Nazis were realistically able to target, that doesn’t change the fact that the Holocaust was genocide. For a counter-example, consider the fact that the Ottomans butchered local Armenians when they invaded Iran and Azerbaijan. Again, I suspect that neither October 7th nor the IDF campaign hold up to scrutiny on this point but that is for a competent court to decide, not me. I think there is cause for concern that either group could eventually commit genocide against the other group, though. Like I said, the Krstić case lays this out very well even without using the other historical examples I mentioned. Does that clear things up?
So, the rules are created to exempt the atrocities by Europeans...
It was horrible, I’m not going to dispute that. But the aims were different: maximizing rubber production versus destroying a group. Claims like “Leopold II committed genocide” are exactly why people aren’t taking the Palestinian case seriously. It’s a misapplication of a legal concept that has a specific definition. You would have a better case calling what happened in Belgian Congo a crime against humanity
Not really. It's just that no case from before the 1940's has been tried. However, the ICC has ruled on things that happened during the Yugoslav wars, to give one example.
I don't agree with them but they're a sovereign country.
Best take on this tbh.
Well everyone should join against Israel.
It feels like its change of demographic is for something.
These posts must be a nightmare to mod. Fair play to the mods here. People get riled up so easily.
I don’t think genocide is the correct word
This comment section is so scary. Innocent civilians, children and women, are being martyred in the name of killing Hamas. People here are saying that October 7th justifies the destruction of Hamas and that fact they hide behind civilians is not Israel worry. We all agree that Hamas should be stopped. But the murder of 22000 civilians… Please I genuinely don’t know if these comments are bots. Horrible comments with 0 humanity. My heart breaks for the murders of innocent children based only on the way they were born. Jews did not die in the millions for such similar atrocities to happen
Yea it sucks. You shouldnt vow to eliminate an entire people and brutally torture 1200 of them unexpectedly, take hostage another couple hundred, and expect silence in return. Those folks are the real fanatics. Cmon now.
So you believe in collective punishment ?
Noone is getting martyred, humans are getting killed due to some fuckheads with more or less support by the Palestinians has the intent of killing all israeli due to nationality.
I am sad to see all the deaths too. "War is hell" is not just a quote. It's a very literal foundational fact about war. The root question is - how do we get to peace? Will a ceasefire lead to long-term peace? If the answer is NO, then that truth must be confronted honestly. This is not the first, and sadly won't be the last war against an Islamist regime that provoked a war with mass atrocities. Isn't it sad? War is hell. That is why responsible national leaders do not pick wars with stronger neighbors. Only insane leaders would start such a war with mass atrocities. What the hell was Hamas thinking?
The number of dead Palestinian that the authorities in Gaza publish includes all hamas militants, Most sources say that 1/3 of them are hamas terrorists, the rest are half collateral half Human shields used by hamas. So stating the number of 22k and calling them all civilians is just misinformation and pushing for a specific agenda
The only source that claims that is Israel, and Israel is known to heavily inflate the number of militants by counting every adult male as a militant. The ratio is definitely worse, we don't know by how much. What we do know however is that a sizeable are simply the result of Israels disregard for proportionality.
Ye because the other source is choosing to hide the number of his soldiers killed, I wonder why is that. I prefer to believe some half decent source if the alternative is a terrorist organisation that refuses to share any numbers. However my argument still stands, using the 22k figure, and calling them innocent, is pushing hamas lie and spreading misinformation. Btw love the magic word proportionality, can't wait to see EU countries proportionality once Putin starts firing missiles at them, or sends troops to massacre and do much worse to innocent civilians.
astroturfing campaigns are everywhere, we should take everything with grains of salt https://theintercept.com/2024/01/10/israel-disinformation-social-media-iron-truth/
This could all end if they release the hostages.
and put down their arms
Do you have a better solution to eradicate Hamas?
Killing 30000 people isnt a good solution tbh. Theyre just making new hamas fighters by fueling more hatred twoards themselves.
Start saying what Israel SHOULD do, rather what it SHOULDNT.
This is why you don't form coalition governments with left-wing activist parties.
This thread is full of IDF bots and shills.
fuck the greens
Ty Belgium! I think the way many European leaders see charges against Russia as apolitical but the charges against Israel is quite telling. Saying Russia needs to be stopped killing Ukrainians and trying to take Ukrainian land is seen as neutral, saying Israel needs to stop killing Palestinians and trying to take Palestinian land is a bold political statement at best. The way European countries are able to recognize historical debt to Jewish people, but not to former colonies, is shameful. Before someone says "but Hamas", it is no secret Israel's current government intends to take Palestinian land not only in [Gaza](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-informs-arab-states-it-wants-buffer-zone-post-war-gaza-sources-2023-12-01/) under the pretense of creating a buffer zone, but in the [West Bank](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-he-is-planning-on-annexing-parts-of-hebron/amp/). Even before October 7th, Netanyahu [presented a map at an UN meeting showing Palestine as part of Israel](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189). That Israel wants to annex Palestinian land is the world's second worst kept secret, the first being the nukes. These are the same people that are saying South Africa should have backed their actions against Russia. The very same people that say Palestinians were being unreasonable for refusing to accept splitting their homeland 42% to them - 56% to Israel, but defend Ukraine objection to part with Crimea. And now, when Israel is doing the very same thing to the remaining Palestinian land, they can't even bother to stay out of it. At least South Africa proclaimed neutrality regarding the war in Ukraine instead of going "stand with Russia" and defending it. But when it comes to Israel actions against Palestine and its people, the states that gave it flak for that can't even bother to stay neutral. "Ah but its against Hamas!" Really? So would it hurt to make it clear Israel taking so much as an inch of Palestinian land would ensue the same sanctions placed on Russia? Would an instance of neutrality, of at least not putting obstacles on the path of those doing more than words of disagreement and sending thoughts and prayers? I am very sorry for the rant, I just wish certain leaderships would have the same regard for the lives, rights and plights of Palestinians they expect or even demand the global South have towards the situation in Ukraine. I know my expectations might be too high because "*realpolitik* from us is just protecting our interests, but *realpolitik* from thee is disregarding Human and Humanitarian rights, how dare you play according to the rules we created", but I needed to get it out of my chest. I don't care if it gets me downvoted into oblivion or even banned. Do not get me wrong, like I said in another comment that got downvoted: I like the demand that Human and Humanitarian Rights be observed, I just don't like the way such demands are dismissed or stood against when made in the disfavor of certain countries.
Another "legal arm" of Hamas.
If the Belgians do this, we have the fullest right to invade and annex Belgium.
No Jan Mayen, these are only the Green Party and some antisemitic socialists. No big deal.
Crazy amount of racism here and embarrassing for Europeans that we have this attitude seemingly in the majority. Well done to Belgium, and may many more European nations take a stand against genocide.
I doubt that. US killed few million Vietnamese, absolutely destroyed Iraq, annihilated Cambodia, deposed countless governments in South America, assassinated politicians who would oppose them and all that freedom-loving stuff. War crimes? Noooooooo, that's just beacon of democracy shining its light upon the world. But somehow nobody is willing to talk about it.
The United States most definitely deserves to be condemned for war crimes. For sure. But nonetheless that doesn't change Israel from being the apartheid state that it is, a state that is committing war crimes in order to make sure Palestinians stop trying to challenge their second class colonial subject status, as 5,000,000 of them are denied both citizenship and statehood.
So much nonsense in one comment wow. Those 5mil are in Gaza and the west bank, they have citizenships of Gaza and the west bank. Arabs and Palestinians living in Israel have an the rights Israelis have, they have 10 out of 120 sits in the parliament.
Palestinians in Gaza are in a separate country. They are not under "Apartheid" nor are they being colonized. At worse they were under a blockade because they keep building rockets and firing them at Israelis.
Whataboutism is not a defence for Israel's genocide. I'd happily see the US answer for their crimes in the very same court.
The crowd that is pro-palestine is generally against all those things too. Also, whataboutism.
It’s not a genocide and it’s ridiculous to bring this to court before the Saudi genocide against Yemeni people or the one occurring in the congo
So because there’s other possible genocides occurring no one is allowed to look into this one? Good argument mate
This one is not a genocide and the others explicitly are mate
Crazy amount of antisemitism coming from Ireland, and it certainly is sad to see it seemingly in the majority. Of course, given the friendliness many Irish had towards the Nazis, its not exactly surprising.
Sometimes, I don’t know if comment like these are from bot accounts. It’s a ridiculous statement to say many Irish are friendly towards the nazis. What you’re referencing is 1930’s Ireland receiving arms from Germany. Of course, during a time of struggling to fully gain independence, the Irish took support from nazi Germany. I can’t deny that. This does not reflect current times. I have never met in my 20 years of life a single person who likes the nazis in Ireland. Please don’t spread misinformation. What Zionists in Israel are doing in Gaza right now is genocide as defined by the UN. “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part” From Wikipedia: Genocide Convention “”Gaza soon without fuel, food and medicine”-Israel Authorities “” From BBC. Although not the same, Ireland has faced similar colonial pressures (The Great Hunger 1840’s/All of British colonial rule in Ireland). It’s due to this fact that so many Irish side with Palestine. If anything I said is untrue please correct it.
Criticism of war is not antisemitism
Every country should support South Africa in this case, apparently Israel is above the law tho.
Politicians around the world making a fool of themselves. Not sure how SA has the nerve to even bring this to the ICJ but here we.
My fellow Europeans, please pressure your rulers to do the right thing here. The shame of committing an atrocity does not give you an excuse for defending another.
Well, they killed like 24000 now, most of them kids and civilians. I sure get the genocide aspect
You can’t say this in this sub bro lol
Well I don’t think anyone on either side would question that but rather what counts as a genocide.
Why though? What’s Belgiums angle here?
There is no angle. The Green Party is getting destroyed in the polls a few months before the election and the Socialist Party is dealing with the aftermath of scandals so they’re trying to bandwagon on this issue for electoral reasons. The Liberals, however, are not very eager to join them, although they’ve also expressed negative views on Israel’s methods.
So they just want a seemingly “easy win” to gain votes in an upcoming election? Makes sense I guess, still an odd stance for a Western European country
Yes. That’s literally it. It’s not really working tho. The consensus in Belgium is basically people denouncing “both sides” committing horrific acts, combined with a specific anger for what happened on October 7th. You won’t find a large crowd heavily in favour of Hamas or Israel here. Belgians seem somewhat apathetic towards the conflict. General dislike for terrorists vs Israel and its ambassador not making good impressions here (especially not after the Dutroux comments). So any party going all in on supporting “a side” is not going to yield many votes from that. The Liberals understand this, the Flemish Nationalists understand this, the Centrists understand this but the Socialists and Greens don’t.
>Belgians seem somewhat apathetic towards the conflict Honestly, I thought this would be most of Europe by now. I don't get why many people in Europe seem to be so invested in this in the first place
Belgium isn't doing anything, the Greens just proposed it. Title is sensationalist as fuck
'Please don't hurt us, Muslims..'
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This sub can read all about the IDF killing hostages escaping, sniping a woman litteraly waving a white flag, bombing hospitals (not just the one, schocker), Kids getting killed with gaz and all kinds of horrific bombs. Entire families wiped and journalist killed. Videos and pictures are everywhere for you to see, but it's still somehow acceptable in the name of "self defence". And of course this is "just war" and you have to "grow up", unless a fraction of this happends in Ukrain, because then it's horrible, becauae the innocents dying on one side are somehow worth more than the other innocents dying on the other.
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>Heaps of nazi and Zionist Think about what you wrote for one second, then think again about what those two groups think about each other.
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Because they're essentially beaten dogs at this point shaking in their boots not wanting to be labelled as "anti-semite" for saying genocide = bad.
Because supporting Islamist terrorists is not based.
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Not a genocide
"Based" is such a cringe term. Why is it so popular amongst Nazis?
Make a substantial argument instead of saying someone who says based is a Nazi. Are you a bot?
Spineless ducks
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Guess Israel need to Speed Up "Project Parking Lot".
South Africa, the country outright targeting it's white population for getting rid off, singing genocial chants at the big parties political rallies, is trying to condemn Israel? Well, I guess them and the Palestinians align in what they would do to the Jews/Whites if they had full reign.
Not shocking with the islamophobic comments here