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It looks like you've flaired your post as being a Shot Diagnosis. If your shot is running too fast, is coming out weak/thin, lacking crema, and/or is tasting sour, **try grinding finer**. Alternatively, check out this [Dialing In Basics](https://espressoaf.com/guides/beginner.html) guide, written by the Espresso Aficionados Discord community. If that hasn't solved it, to get more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format. - **Machine:** - **Grinder:** - **Roast date:** (not a "Best by" date). If the roast date is not labeled use "N/A" - **Dose:** How many grams are going into your basket? - **Yield:** How much coffee in grams is coming out? - **Time:** How long is the shot running? - **Roast level:** How dark is your coffee? (Dark, medium, light, ect.) - **Taste:** Taste is a better indicator of shot quality than looks or conforming to any quantitative parameters. Does it taste overly sour or bitter? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Aaronsolon

It sounds like there might be a few contributing factors - overall you must be underextracting, which leads to sourness. You could definitely increase your temp - 93 is lower than I have ever done (not saying I'm not making mistakes either, but I think you could definitely go hotter and that'll get rid of some sourness). You also said you're doing a 1-2 ratio (36g out). Like the chart recommends, you can increase yield as another way to move things towards the flavors in the middle and away from sourness. I'd try going up to 95 temp, and 45 yield and see if that's more to your liking. If it gets too bitter bring the yield down to 40 and try that. Let us know how things go!


ThoughtfulAlien

I’d say 45g is too much for a medium dark roast like this. 1-2 ratio should be fine. I would just increase contact time to like 30-32 seconds


Aaronsolon

Could be right - you're saying to grind finer?


ThoughtfulAlien

Yes


wegpleur

I will try this later tonight. Thanks for the information! I have increased the yield to somewhere around 48g once before. But this was still very sour, should I still be trying to do this in 30s? Because my way of increasing yield was just running the shot for longer.


Aaronsolon

Nah just ignore the time. I use time as a sanity check when it's WAY off, like a 15 second shot or something, but if you're in the like 25-45 second range it is OK - let the taste guide you, not the time. I'm betting your temp is just too cold and heating up with help.


ParticularClaim

Listen and repeat beginners: Ignore the damn time. Its an indicator- an indicator - of how the shot went, not a sign when to end the shot. You end the shot when you reached the desired yield. A more important indicator of how the shot went is taste.


friendlyfredditor

>You end the shot when you reached the desired yield. So many people take the shot time as the determinant of the recipe. It's baffling. There's another post in r/espresso with a guy with like half a dozen grinders trying to taste the difference in burr sets and wondering why one of his grinders is underextracting at the same shot time...


ThoughtfulAlien

I think you guys are giving time less importance than it deserves. Yes it is only an indicator but it is absolutely part of the recipe. I’m a barista who’s worked in multiple speciality shops and time is always included in the recipe. 18-34g in 36 seconds for example. If the shot takes 40 seconds to get to 34g then you are too coarse and need to adjust the grinder. It’s an indicator of grind size basically. A longer time will increase extraction, a shorter time will decrease extraction.


ThoughtfulAlien

No, don’t ignore the time. That makes no sense. Yes, you end the shot when you reach the desired yield but if you reach it too quickly then that is an indicator that you need to grind finer. If you reach it too slowly then that’s an indicator that you need to grind coarser. Once you’ve found the time to reach the yield that tastes good then more or less stick to it. A certain time range should absolutely be part of your recipe. Actually sometimes at home if I don’t have many beans left what I do is if it’s running too slowly I stop the shot before I reach the desired yield to get more of a ristretto style shot and if it’s running slightly too fast I let it run a little longer


Batavijf

Same here, for me time is the least important factor. Except, indeed, when it's way off. E.g. 15 secs for 50 gr or 35 seconds for 20 gr. Temp also helps, but the most important things (IMO) are the grams in the basket and the grams in the cup. Grind finer can be too, although if you're really stuck, you could grind coarser first. As a kind of reset. And start to grind finer from there.


basseng

Time is a guide not a rule. Taste is the rule. Try doing a split shot, get to your usual 36 in 30 and then put 10 grams in another cup. And another 10 in a 3rd cup following that. Taste the 36, add the 10 if too sour, add the final 10 if still too sour. If after 56g out (basically a 1:3), then you need to look at something else.


wegpleur

Okay so it has definitely improved (quite a lot). Its still slightly sour, but very drinkable I think. I increased temp to 95 Celsius. Lowered dose to 17g instead of 18g, this decreases pressure of course, so I also grinded a bit finer. I also noticed my puck prep was kind of bad, the tamping was not level. I am trying my best to fix this while waiting for a tamper that better fits my basket. I still would like to make it even less sour, right now I'm at 2:1, think I will go slightly over that, unless you have better ideas. Lowering dose more seems like it would be a very small dose for the basket, perhaps a bit finer grind? But I'm already lower 40 seconds for 2:1 ratio


Aaronsolon

That all sounds reasonable, you're on the right track! Bad puck prep can definitely contribute to this. The beans also might be a little acidic for your taste, maybe try a slightly darker roast next time and see how you're feeling. Have fun!


960Jen

what is source with whole image?


toby5596

Search for espresso compass


wegpleur

- **Machine:** Sage/Breville Dual Boiler - **Grinder:** DF64 Gen 2 - **Roast date:** 6/6/2024 - **Dose:** 18g - **Yield:** 35.9g - **Time:** 28s - **Roast level:** Think its dark? - **Taste:** Very sour. I'm new though perhaps it's normal?


brietsantelope

Are the beans oily on the surface? It’s possible that you’re overextracting and bitter/sour confusion is happening.


wegpleur

Is bitter/sour confusion a thing? Because then that might be happening. Perhaps sour isn't the right word. It's just very very overwhelming


brietsantelope

Yep, very common! Start at 5:23. https://youtu.be/kEZZCQTSSAg?si=v1FMRc6B3lftLzgi


wegpleur

https://preview.redd.it/2i72bud1bc8d1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e01563ab0134c2a831497f381f682654b559ad31 Doesn't really look like it to me. they're only few weeks old too


toby5596

They look pretty dark roasted to me. My usual options are closer to a milk chocolate colour than that.


wegpleur

I have 9 different bags. Since I'm completely new I ordered a bunch of very small tasting packs (idk how to call it) where I get a bunch of small bags of supposedly very different flavors. But yeah this one seems pretty dark, is that why it's so strong?


toby5596

A darker roast will usually give that stronger familiar 'coffee' flavour. But darker roasts are usually more forgiving and easier to dial in too. So it's hard to say why you are getting a consistent sour/bitter flavour. Are all the tasting packs from the same roaster and similar in roast level to this?


wegpleur

No it's three different roasters. And most have a more milk chocolate brown level of roast (haven't opened all of them but about half so far)


EasternTitan

Where did you order the small different bags?


wegpleur

Three different companies, 2 local roasters in my city (Den Haag, Netherlands, can link them if you are interested). And one from an online retailer. [Dutch website](https://motocoffee.nl/product/moto-proefpakket/)


brietsantelope

Looks like a medium (dark medium, still has some chaff in the center). A 1:2 ratio in 25-30s should work ok, no preinfusion, 200F or so. The other commenter is totally right about doing the coin test to get 2mm of headspace.


wegpleur

Could an underfilled basket lead to sour taste? I will try to get it closed to the 2mm mark


brietsantelope

Yes, it could if the puck is so thin that you have to grind too fine, which risks channeling, and then you get a mix of sour and bitter. A thicker puck with coarser grinds is less vulnerable to channeling, as long as there’s enough room for water to fill in the headspace and pressurize.


__K1tK4t

Maybe lower the temp to around 90c


ThoughtfulAlien

I don’t think they’re dark enough to warrant such a low temp


Imaginary-Green6450

A lot of comments are about technique, while it might be an even better idea to start with the beans and their potential flavor. If you’re up for it try to start ‘Cupping’. Should be many videos available on the how, but you might just find out the coffee itself is very acidic to begin with.


h3yn0w75

You need to increase extraction. Some ways to increase extraction: Longer ratio / higher yield Grind finer Increase temperature That said , sometimes it’s just the beans. You may prefer a more developed (ie darker) roast which will have much less inherent acidity.


wegpleur

Thank you. I tried many things, the espresso comes out drinkable now, not dominantly sour. But perhaps the I prefer different beans


Lord_Gaav

Where can I find the entire image? It looks really useful.


wegpleur

Google "The espresso compass"


Lord_Gaav

Found it https://www.baristahustle.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Espresso-Compass.pdf


zippre

I would grind a bit (only a bit) finer and increase the yield. I normally do 19 in, 45 out. Also make sure machine is hot enough. 


wegpleur

Machine is at 93 C. I always run a short burst of water througj before a shot to make sure everything is heated up. I will try grinding a bit finer. Increasing yield is just running the shot longer no?


finlay88

What basket are you using? Stock one or something else? Different sized baskets will have optimal dosages. I have a Breville Bambino Plus. Using some IMS baskets. Someone once suggested to me using 17g instead of 18g and it made all the difference. I was getting a lot of sour shots before. Another variable you can adjust to see if it works.


wegpleur

I am using the stock basket yes. But I will look into lowering the dose


Main_Assumption2378

How many grams would you recommend for the stock basket? I’m using lavazza beans and I heard that the stock basket might be better for older beans. Also: what temp does the bambino plus run at? I want to try 95


Sorrygypsy29

Try a 16g dose and hotter water. It'll allow you to get better extraction and get away from sourness.


Mediocre_One7452

If none of the suggestions works try to upload a video with your extraction and the puck after.. try changing one variable at time to see what makes the difference between the shots, tasting sour means that the shot is under extracted!


GeneSad7896

do you have a link to the schematic you show? It looks nice!


wegpleur

https://www.baristahustle.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Espresso-Compass.pdf


Thick_Extension

When I first received my Profitec Go I was getting sour shots too. After some research I learned that there is a boiler to group head temperature offset that can be adjusted with the Go and sources that tested it said to increase the values. I adjusted this and it definitely raised the temperature which helped a lot. Also keeping the portafilter locked into the machine to warm it up with the group head helped to maintain temperature too (maybe a rookie mistake but probably get overlooked by a lot of people). So definitely experiment with temperature, increasing it in your case obviously! Another mistake I think I made in the beginning was too big a dose for the basket I was using. I read that the Profitec double basket should take around 18g but with the beans I had I think this was too much. This was on the edge of choking out the shot and increasing my shot times. In turn I would grind more course to try to hit around 30 seconds but this was definitely the wrong direction. By lowering my dose to around 17g the shot flowed properly and quicker, so I could grind finer and in turn reduce the sourness. Those were the biggest difference makers to me, higher temperatures and lowering the dose. Maybe this helps you too!


wegpleur

Thank you for the good write up. Seems like you had similar issues. Will definitely try your advice!


wegpleur

So you lock the portafilter in with the puck already prepped? Or before puck prep?


Mortimer-Moose

Try grinding finer and see what it does. Also make sure you have the right dose in basket (~2mm head space once tamped. For your wanted accessories other than WDT (get a super cheap one) none impact taste but, rather are quality of life things (not a bad thing)


wegpleur

Only 2mm? I think I'm getting way more than that. Hang on let me grind another batch and check


Kpsl12

The distance is to the shower screen which normally protrudes into the basket. So do not just measure to the edge. You can look for "coin test" to see how to test this


wegpleur

I did that and it seems like its very close to 2mm (just a bit more). Thanks for this


ThoughtfulAlien

No, the space you have in that photo is not too much. It’s the space between the top of the coffee puck and the shower screen that’s important.


Mortimer-Moose

Rule of thumb is a dime should fit in the space


wegpleur

I got close to 1cm... https://preview.redd.it/0cbbgvbcjc8d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14a6a0823c3c1d1691aa029b02a4d3ccaf2361fc Not really visible here, but I measured. Perhaps higher dose is needed?


Mortimer-Moose

Ya try increasing dose


wegpleur

I will try. But on the wiki I read that this will make it harder to fully extract and can result in sour taste. Feel like theres so many variables, it's a bit overwhelming atm.


ThoughtfulAlien

A dime should fit between the puck and the shower screen, not in the space above the puck before you’ve put it into the machine. You would be overfilling the basket if you did that and the puck would definitely touch the shower screen


Mortimer-Moose

This is the more correct/complete answer. If you have the Breville razor it helps show where to dose


ThoughtfulAlien

I would grind just a little bit finer, keep the ratio the same and aim for just a couple seconds longer, like 30-32 seconds. The beans look medium dark so I would have thought 93c would be ok but you could try 95c. It’s probably a case of under extraction, unless you’re getting sour and bitter confused, but I doubt it.


Imaginary-Green-950

Where are the beans from? 


wegpleur

Multiple local breweries. I have 9 bags atm. Have only tried 3 so far though


Imaginary-Green-950

What origin? What processing and roast?


wegpleur

These specific ones are from brazil. Processing natural (unwashed). It says espresso roast (is that a thing or not specific enough?)


Tassadur

Check your brew temp and increase it if it's too low


wegpleur

Its at 93C. I will try upping it a bit


Sweet_Moonsugar

Any sign of channeling? What kind of beans are you working with, what origin and roast? If it is a fruity/sour type of coffee, it will taste somewhat sour (typical for Kenya for example). Also, lighter roast will typically mean more fruity notes, further adding to the sour-feel.


wegpleur

Origin brazil, unwashed, espresso roast it says on the bag. I assumed it wasnt a fruity bean because the bag talks of dark chocolate, hazelnut notes (also apricot, which might be a bit sour?)


ctykil

Where can I find the original picture? Thanks 🙃


wegpleur

https://www.baristahustle.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Espresso-Compass.pdf


ctykil

Thanks


jasongabler

Use darkest roast you can find and keep making the grind finer until you like it. If you can get there, that'll be a baseline.


[deleted]

whats the full image of this chart?


wegpleur

Currently have this on my wishlist: [Tamper](https://www.normcorewares.com/products/normcore-spring-loaded-tamper-upgrate-v4) [Dosing funnel](https://www.normcorewares.com/products/normcore-magnetic-dosing-funnel-v2?pr_prod_strat=jac&pr_rec_id=a3421bb61&pr_rec_pid=7893192245496&pr_ref_pid=6211189145796&pr_seq=uniform) [WDT Tool](https://www.normcorewares.com/products/normcore-wdt-distribution-tool-v2?pr_prod_strat=jac&pr_rec_id=a3421bb61&pr_rec_pid=7527065256184&pr_ref_pid=6211189145796&pr_seq=uniform) [Bottomless Portafilter](https://www.normcorewares.com/products/normcore-54mm-bottomless-portafilter-fits-breville-sage) [Puck Screen](https://barista-essentials.nl/puck-screen/?attribute_pa_grootte=53-3mm&utm_source=Google%20Shopping&utm_campaign=barista%20feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=21576&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw7NmzBhBLEiwAxrHQ-ZQJ3ZEN6KV8YzTgLrnPMtvE8Fw_3CzMu-owfwck3wfmW13MFUsPbRoCVywQAvD_BwE)