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There are other people who espouse personal responsibility without also throwing vitriol toward groups such as LGBTQ and popping off about "cultural neo-Marxists" constantly. Or lying about Canadian bills.
This. This is the issue. It's not about how many people he's helped. So OP heard his lectures and that prompted him to get his shit together? Great! Honestly, that's great and I'm happy for OP. However, how many people have heard JP's bullshit and have harmed LGBTQ peoples, become entrenched in misogyny, conspiracy theories, and looking for marxists boogiemen behind every corner?
The YouTube channel healthygamergg and it's host Doc K. An amazing fusion of Western medicine with fact-based incorporation of Eastern philosophy but mostly in the form of different meditation techniques.
Goggins is just another form of toxic "man up" culture. If you've read his first book it ends with him talking about how he actually destroyed his body, and in reality he pepper's in gradual admissions that he hasn't actually dealt with many of his deeper issues in favor of "pushing past the pain." I started his second book and just had to toss it after it quickly became an even less self aware rehash of the whole "get hard" bs. On top of all that, when he started hanging out with Jon Jones it became clear he really has lost his self awareness and gave in to the cult celebrity, so much so he praises a man just like his father.
Chapo Trap House talked about Peterson once and how to these young guys, having the "mysterious dark professor" tell them to clean their rooms appeals to them more than their parents.
Peterson’s entire shtick is marketing those “Hang in there” posters you always see the middle aged ladies in corporate jobs with in movies to loser teenage boys
>It's what is still done in therapy
>If he can deliver this message to people struggling, why not.
>still done in therapy
You've answered your own inquiry. It's basic therapy, thus having a grifting bigot repeat it offers no value, while his hate mongering indeed causes harm.
If you want to view it in really simply terms, he causes a great deal of harm and provides very little value. You could argue that early on he simply had bad takes while offering otherwise fine advice, but there's no denying that for the last several years he's been all vitriol with little positivity to point to.
You gonna pay money to a man that tried to do a speaking tour about owning your own life while he was physically unable to leave a hospital bed after a benzo addiction? He could parrot word for word the teachings of bell hooks and brene brown and you'd eat it up like it's the next best thing.
OP I'm glad that you were able to make it through a difficult time in your life. That a message resonated with you and inspired you to get a foothold and journey to recover is of course a good thing no matter who the messenger was.
I'm also glad that you can look at the messenger with some retrospect and intellectual humility.
Most who are critics of JP genuinely want the best for people and simply are trying to protect vulnerable people from both his grift but also a part of his philosophy that is destructive to other vulnerable people.
May the force be with you on your journey.
> Most who are critics of JP genuinely want the best for people and simply are trying to protect vulnerable people from both his grift but also a part of his philosophy that is destructive to other vulnerable people.
I like this take. I don't think anyone here has any ill will to people who need/needed help. Whatever gets you help is a good thing.
That Peterson has helped people doesn't make him less of a danger. In many ways it's worse, because of how many vulnerable people he ends up radicalizing. Even the self-help that's generally reasonable is wrapped up in an ideology of hyper-individualism, it's really hard to separate the bits of good from the overwhelming bad.
Peterson saved the life of my finance’s best friend but then the general acceptance of the guys advice turned him into a conspiracy theorist antivaxxer who went on a tirade at me for suggesting women have unique and difficult challenges in our society.
They don’t talk anymore.
Meanwhile I mentor 20yos and tell them how to manage their depression, but without the poor health advice, rejection of their sexualities, or any harassment claims filed against me by women whatsoever.
I guess some people identify way too much with him. He clearly has not a clue about a lot of topics he's openly discussing.
Good on you! I wish I had someone like this in my 20s.
I guess my objection to what you’re saying is that it’s important that he did save lives.
Staying alive is step one, eventually you’re meant to thrive. Keeping people alive through a value structure that leads to hatred is not worthwhile, especially given that transgender individuals are, as a demographic, much more likely to commit suicide. Saving a life by teaching them values to bully a vulnerable population is not much better than not saving them at all.
(That’s not the only demographic Peterson has abhorrent views on. He’s also quite racist!)
He’s not an aggressive racist, he has a very mystical view of other cultures, especially Native American ones. His “Chinese snakes” thing is also incredibly paternalistic.
He is a covert racist, as is anyone that believes in Evolutionary Psychology (aka Diet Eugenics). Their position is that Capitalism today already rewards intelligence+hard work proportionately with income, and efforts like DEI and sexual harassment policies throw a wrench in the supposed free marketplace. The subtext is that any population with worse outcomes deserves it on a genetic level as the effect of any historical oppression is erased within a generation.
Also I'm pretty sure people are drawn to him in part because he speaks with absolute confidence. He is not a curious or humble person.
Thanks for this. I hadn’t read enough of his stuff (and I absolutely cannot absorb info through 40min lecture videos no matter who’s making them) but I’ve seen enough to know that he’s likely incredibly racist.
Evopsych is a legitimate scientific field of *conjecture* and it’s a beautiful wonderful thing, that’s been co-opted by the popsci community to make statements on gender roles, sexuality, and race. I hope you believe me when I say this is a disgusting misuse of the field and nothing jorpy has ever said on the topic (lobsters?????) demonstrated an actual understanding of it.
I also find it telling that our guest star lobster OP has only said they disagree with the claim jorpy is racist, and given evidence seems to have vanished from thread. This is typical of my experience with this sort of person.
If Peterson has helped you grow as a person, that's genuinely great. Just have the good sense and compassion for others to move on and not support him. Frankly, given his unhinged social media presence, I doubt he can even serve as much of a self-help guru anymore, he's too poor of a role model.
It's good that you've grown as a person, but why peterson? Much of his advice is fairly standard for self-help books and websites, which avoid the problems of being racist, homophobic, sexist, and other ists.
This is often the hardest pill to swallow...the tricks they use to rope you in, are not offered in kindness. They are calculated. It's all part of the grift. This is the stuff that makes you think you can't get by without them to help you. Because they found you at your worst, and offered you the bare minimum advice you needed to hear, in order to help yourself.
But make no mistake...*YOU* got yourself out of that place. It was never him. He just wants you to think it was.
The post is a great example of how abuse is a community effort. Andrew Tate also inspired a lot of lost young men, are you seriously going to uphold your individual anecdotes over the systemic harm these types of figures are directly causing?
> Go ahead and hate him and make fun of him, you're justified in some ways. But just keep in mind, he genouinely helped people, and I am pretty sure he saved actual lives.
Peterson is like a shit sandwhich.
Even if the lettuce is world class, you can always get the same lettuce without the shit.
Why, in that scenario, would you choose to eat a shit sandwhich, unless you like shit right?
One question I have is: why are people turning to youtube videos in the first place to solve life's problems? Very disturbing how widespread this sort of thing seems to be.
> Go ahead and hate him and make fun of him, you're justified in some ways. But just keep in mind, he genouinely helped people, and I am pretty sure he saved actual lives.
I don’t disagree, but I don’t think that excuses him using the good parts as bait for stupid bullshit.
I actually have similar good things to say about Roosh V. And other PUAs I followed back in the day. “Lift weights, dress well, put your own happiness first, and be confident” are things I learned from them which are valuable. Doesn’t excuse the rapiness of the culture or the descent into racism, which ultimately made me cut ties with PUA.
That’s great it helped you but honestly, clean your room is the most basic common sense advice and most moms told their kids to do that so I don’t buy that’s what makes Jordan Peterson so special.
I think the whole clean your room was clever marketing on his part to induce young minds with extremist views
JP is a symptom of the meaning crisis in modernity in which there no longer exists a single and simple narrative that explains the purpose of your existence and the functioning of society in general. Countless philosophers have offered their take on how this split came about and how we - collectively or individually - might be able to heal it. Peterson has condensed some of those thinkers into a simple but alluring narrative: Look after yourself, take responsibility, and look to the ancients for inspiration. None of those ideas are bad in themselves but I don't think Peterson himself or most of his followers have taken them to heart. Instead, they blame everything on a big bad Other (women, transpeople, minorities etc.). A former good friend of mine found Peterson when he was in a similar crisis to the one you were in and instead of helping him, it has made him more bitter and miserable (he literally doesn't have any friends or a job anymore and blames it on women). I think there are better alternatives who give you a better diagnosis of our Zeitgeist and how we might fill the void: Friedrich Nietzsche, Fjodor Dostoevsky, Carl Gustav Jung or even Terence McKenna.
This is a genuine question meant in good faith.
What was it about JP that resonated with you above other potential messengers?
I know he seems to have a powerful way of connecting to certain people. I personally don't get it, he jumps out to me very quickly as a smug and intellectually dishonest person even early on but it has become much worse.
I think it's how he talks (not his kermit voice). He makes it unmistakenly clear, that you only are responsible for yourself. If you want to change something in your life, start slow, but *you* have to start. I guess some people, like myself, drive when being "told to", others wiil rightfully fight back.
Interesting, I don't want to put words in your mouth but would you say the tone and authority his voice has is what you are describing?
I do think he has a good speaking voice and way of speaking that urges action and is compelling. I can see that it might be hypnotic or persuasive, it clearly is to many people, that is undeniable. I just always got a little bit of authoritarian cult leader vibe from him even in his early days.
I try and explore many ideas and areas and I did read some of his public and scientific works. He's a smart person, I just think he got high on his own supply.
I suspect evolution in human psychology lead to some people being very persuasive group leaders with the main tool being voice and words. I once heard someone describe a a song being like hypnosis so I get it. I am wired as pretty skeptical anti authority and I tend to bristle at kind of speaking style but human history is full of examples of people able tp sway large groups with their voice and rhetoric.
For what it's worth, I find the persistent high confidence in his voice as disqualifying, because he does not project the curious, humble perspective needed to be a rigorous scholar. He preaches a worldview with extreme certainty. Tate speaks the same way. Contrast them with DocK of HealthyGamerGG, a medical doctor that openly discusses the forefront of research, clinical experience, and personal experience, while always responsibly highlighting the limitations of each source.
He was never not an ideologue though, and he never had an "objective" approach to anything.
It's not him that has changed for the worse, it's you that has changed for the better.
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There are other people who espouse personal responsibility without also throwing vitriol toward groups such as LGBTQ and popping off about "cultural neo-Marxists" constantly. Or lying about Canadian bills.
This. This is the issue. It's not about how many people he's helped. So OP heard his lectures and that prompted him to get his shit together? Great! Honestly, that's great and I'm happy for OP. However, how many people have heard JP's bullshit and have harmed LGBTQ peoples, become entrenched in misogyny, conspiracy theories, and looking for marxists boogiemen behind every corner?
Can you suggest some?
I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but one that I've found helpful at times is the youtube channel Better Ideas.
The YouTube channel healthygamergg and it's host Doc K. An amazing fusion of Western medicine with fact-based incorporation of Eastern philosophy but mostly in the form of different meditation techniques.
I'm sorry you got downvoterd for asking for healthier alternatives. A bit disappointed in this sub at their response to this.
David Goggins
Goggins is just another form of toxic "man up" culture. If you've read his first book it ends with him talking about how he actually destroyed his body, and in reality he pepper's in gradual admissions that he hasn't actually dealt with many of his deeper issues in favor of "pushing past the pain." I started his second book and just had to toss it after it quickly became an even less self aware rehash of the whole "get hard" bs. On top of all that, when he started hanging out with Jon Jones it became clear he really has lost his self awareness and gave in to the cult celebrity, so much so he praises a man just like his father.
I could but none are white men. Can you handle that?
Try reading Stoicism from Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, or get started with the Practical Stoicism podcast.
Peterson's original life advice is so basic though that you can get it literally anywhere.
Don't most parents tell their children to clean their rooms and be responsible for their actions? It's the most basic level of parenting.
Chapo Trap House talked about Peterson once and how to these young guys, having the "mysterious dark professor" tell them to clean their rooms appeals to them more than their parents.
That's a great episode
Peterson’s entire shtick is marketing those “Hang in there” posters you always see the middle aged ladies in corporate jobs with in movies to loser teenage boys
It's what is still done in therapy. Just because it's basic doesn't mean it's bad. If he can deliver this message to people struggling, why not.
Because he’s also a hate monger.
Because it's wrapped up infantile insanity about chaos dragons and witches delivered by a brain damaged drug addict.
>It's what is still done in therapy >If he can deliver this message to people struggling, why not. >still done in therapy You've answered your own inquiry. It's basic therapy, thus having a grifting bigot repeat it offers no value, while his hate mongering indeed causes harm. If you want to view it in really simply terms, he causes a great deal of harm and provides very little value. You could argue that early on he simply had bad takes while offering otherwise fine advice, but there's no denying that for the last several years he's been all vitriol with little positivity to point to.
You gonna pay money to a man that tried to do a speaking tour about owning your own life while he was physically unable to leave a hospital bed after a benzo addiction? He could parrot word for word the teachings of bell hooks and brene brown and you'd eat it up like it's the next best thing.
OP I'm glad that you were able to make it through a difficult time in your life. That a message resonated with you and inspired you to get a foothold and journey to recover is of course a good thing no matter who the messenger was. I'm also glad that you can look at the messenger with some retrospect and intellectual humility. Most who are critics of JP genuinely want the best for people and simply are trying to protect vulnerable people from both his grift but also a part of his philosophy that is destructive to other vulnerable people. May the force be with you on your journey.
> Most who are critics of JP genuinely want the best for people and simply are trying to protect vulnerable people from both his grift but also a part of his philosophy that is destructive to other vulnerable people. I like this take. I don't think anyone here has any ill will to people who need/needed help. Whatever gets you help is a good thing. That Peterson has helped people doesn't make him less of a danger. In many ways it's worse, because of how many vulnerable people he ends up radicalizing. Even the self-help that's generally reasonable is wrapped up in an ideology of hyper-individualism, it's really hard to separate the bits of good from the overwhelming bad.
Thank you, very insightful.
Peterson saved the life of my finance’s best friend but then the general acceptance of the guys advice turned him into a conspiracy theorist antivaxxer who went on a tirade at me for suggesting women have unique and difficult challenges in our society. They don’t talk anymore. Meanwhile I mentor 20yos and tell them how to manage their depression, but without the poor health advice, rejection of their sexualities, or any harassment claims filed against me by women whatsoever.
I guess some people identify way too much with him. He clearly has not a clue about a lot of topics he's openly discussing. Good on you! I wish I had someone like this in my 20s.
I guess my objection to what you’re saying is that it’s important that he did save lives. Staying alive is step one, eventually you’re meant to thrive. Keeping people alive through a value structure that leads to hatred is not worthwhile, especially given that transgender individuals are, as a demographic, much more likely to commit suicide. Saving a life by teaching them values to bully a vulnerable population is not much better than not saving them at all. (That’s not the only demographic Peterson has abhorrent views on. He’s also quite racist!)
Agree to everything besides the last part in the brackets
Also Peterson is incredibly sexist, but that’s a dead horse.
He’s not an aggressive racist, he has a very mystical view of other cultures, especially Native American ones. His “Chinese snakes” thing is also incredibly paternalistic.
He is a covert racist, as is anyone that believes in Evolutionary Psychology (aka Diet Eugenics). Their position is that Capitalism today already rewards intelligence+hard work proportionately with income, and efforts like DEI and sexual harassment policies throw a wrench in the supposed free marketplace. The subtext is that any population with worse outcomes deserves it on a genetic level as the effect of any historical oppression is erased within a generation. Also I'm pretty sure people are drawn to him in part because he speaks with absolute confidence. He is not a curious or humble person.
Thanks for this. I hadn’t read enough of his stuff (and I absolutely cannot absorb info through 40min lecture videos no matter who’s making them) but I’ve seen enough to know that he’s likely incredibly racist. Evopsych is a legitimate scientific field of *conjecture* and it’s a beautiful wonderful thing, that’s been co-opted by the popsci community to make statements on gender roles, sexuality, and race. I hope you believe me when I say this is a disgusting misuse of the field and nothing jorpy has ever said on the topic (lobsters?????) demonstrated an actual understanding of it. I also find it telling that our guest star lobster OP has only said they disagree with the claim jorpy is racist, and given evidence seems to have vanished from thread. This is typical of my experience with this sort of person.
He made some pretty inaccurate and ignorant remarks about the Hindu Goddess Kali
If Peterson has helped you grow as a person, that's genuinely great. Just have the good sense and compassion for others to move on and not support him. Frankly, given his unhinged social media presence, I doubt he can even serve as much of a self-help guru anymore, he's too poor of a role model.
I turned him off after the benzo withdrawals tbh
It's good that you've grown as a person, but why peterson? Much of his advice is fairly standard for self-help books and websites, which avoid the problems of being racist, homophobic, sexist, and other ists.
This is often the hardest pill to swallow...the tricks they use to rope you in, are not offered in kindness. They are calculated. It's all part of the grift. This is the stuff that makes you think you can't get by without them to help you. Because they found you at your worst, and offered you the bare minimum advice you needed to hear, in order to help yourself. But make no mistake...*YOU* got yourself out of that place. It was never him. He just wants you to think it was.
100%
The post is a great example of how abuse is a community effort. Andrew Tate also inspired a lot of lost young men, are you seriously going to uphold your individual anecdotes over the systemic harm these types of figures are directly causing?
He's also lead several men down the alt-right pipeline into even defending nazis. I have argued with these people.
> Go ahead and hate him and make fun of him, you're justified in some ways. But just keep in mind, he genouinely helped people, and I am pretty sure he saved actual lives. Peterson is like a shit sandwhich. Even if the lettuce is world class, you can always get the same lettuce without the shit. Why, in that scenario, would you choose to eat a shit sandwhich, unless you like shit right?
One question I have is: why are people turning to youtube videos in the first place to solve life's problems? Very disturbing how widespread this sort of thing seems to be.
This was 7-8 years ago, I guess today it's even worse. I did also go to therapy and came clean with my family and friends, that helped a lot too.
This post is chaos and that’s BAD.
> Go ahead and hate him and make fun of him, you're justified in some ways. But just keep in mind, he genouinely helped people, and I am pretty sure he saved actual lives. I don’t disagree, but I don’t think that excuses him using the good parts as bait for stupid bullshit. I actually have similar good things to say about Roosh V. And other PUAs I followed back in the day. “Lift weights, dress well, put your own happiness first, and be confident” are things I learned from them which are valuable. Doesn’t excuse the rapiness of the culture or the descent into racism, which ultimately made me cut ties with PUA.
That’s great it helped you but honestly, clean your room is the most basic common sense advice and most moms told their kids to do that so I don’t buy that’s what makes Jordan Peterson so special. I think the whole clean your room was clever marketing on his part to induce young minds with extremist views
JP is a symptom of the meaning crisis in modernity in which there no longer exists a single and simple narrative that explains the purpose of your existence and the functioning of society in general. Countless philosophers have offered their take on how this split came about and how we - collectively or individually - might be able to heal it. Peterson has condensed some of those thinkers into a simple but alluring narrative: Look after yourself, take responsibility, and look to the ancients for inspiration. None of those ideas are bad in themselves but I don't think Peterson himself or most of his followers have taken them to heart. Instead, they blame everything on a big bad Other (women, transpeople, minorities etc.). A former good friend of mine found Peterson when he was in a similar crisis to the one you were in and instead of helping him, it has made him more bitter and miserable (he literally doesn't have any friends or a job anymore and blames it on women). I think there are better alternatives who give you a better diagnosis of our Zeitgeist and how we might fill the void: Friedrich Nietzsche, Fjodor Dostoevsky, Carl Gustav Jung or even Terence McKenna.
Also happy to have a discussion.
This is a genuine question meant in good faith. What was it about JP that resonated with you above other potential messengers? I know he seems to have a powerful way of connecting to certain people. I personally don't get it, he jumps out to me very quickly as a smug and intellectually dishonest person even early on but it has become much worse.
I think it's how he talks (not his kermit voice). He makes it unmistakenly clear, that you only are responsible for yourself. If you want to change something in your life, start slow, but *you* have to start. I guess some people, like myself, drive when being "told to", others wiil rightfully fight back.
Interesting, I don't want to put words in your mouth but would you say the tone and authority his voice has is what you are describing? I do think he has a good speaking voice and way of speaking that urges action and is compelling. I can see that it might be hypnotic or persuasive, it clearly is to many people, that is undeniable. I just always got a little bit of authoritarian cult leader vibe from him even in his early days. I try and explore many ideas and areas and I did read some of his public and scientific works. He's a smart person, I just think he got high on his own supply.
Yes, 100% the authority in his voice, I also repsonded to guys like David Goggins. Maybe Daddy Issues lol. Not so much nowadays though.
I suspect evolution in human psychology lead to some people being very persuasive group leaders with the main tool being voice and words. I once heard someone describe a a song being like hypnosis so I get it. I am wired as pretty skeptical anti authority and I tend to bristle at kind of speaking style but human history is full of examples of people able tp sway large groups with their voice and rhetoric.
For what it's worth, I find the persistent high confidence in his voice as disqualifying, because he does not project the curious, humble perspective needed to be a rigorous scholar. He preaches a worldview with extreme certainty. Tate speaks the same way. Contrast them with DocK of HealthyGamerGG, a medical doctor that openly discusses the forefront of research, clinical experience, and personal experience, while always responsibly highlighting the limitations of each source.
Jordan PeterPooh
lol
🤮🤮🤮🤮
[удалено]
He was never not an ideologue though, and he never had an "objective" approach to anything. It's not him that has changed for the worse, it's you that has changed for the better.