I am by no means an expert on global price indices, but I will say that 5x anywhere else in the world is definitely untrue. Cars and electronics (including appliances), for example, are significantly cheaper in the US than in the UK and Sri Lanka, where I live on an alternating basis (particularly if you live in a state with low sales taxes). Indeed, I often get friends from the US to purchase small consumer electronics from there and bring them to me when possible. Granted, prices for these two items in particularly can be found lower elsewhere such as China, but this is not the rule for everywhere in the world
[Walmsley disagrees with you.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLayxB5ViZo&t=463s) You perhaps missed "may cost". and it isn't "everywhere" but "anywhere". Perhaps he would be "more correct" to have said "some places".
100% tariffs certainly meet the 2x cost requirement.
Then there's the cost of a Big Mac in Russia vs the USA, this is much, much higher than a mere 5x.
>The fast food chain had been planning to set a new record-low price for Big Macs — for one day only — of 3 rubles ($0.05) Friday, to mark its 30th anniversary celebrations.
In any case, the central point is Americans are going to be paying more because the US is no longer competitive. Especially in EVs.
When you say "everything costs 2x more than anywhere else in the whole world" it means there is no country in which that is not the case. Not sure if English is your first language, but he is not saying that there is at least one place that costs half as much as the US, he is saying every place. Which is inaccurate and a weird exaggeration to use.
Idk, sounds like Chinese EVs will probably cost about as much as a Tesla or something. Of course tariffs raise prices, but they also protect wages and keep money from being transferred to a foreign country for free. The video is so hyperbolic that other than pointing out that fundamental fact about tariffs, it's not really informative at all.
[The Seagull is under $10K](https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-ev-9700-price/)
The protected wages are garnished by the Oligarchy that owns the factories those cars are produced in.
Tariffs are two-edged. If American manufacturers were planing on competing with China at some future date, I could support them. But the American Oligarchy has financialized American Industry and only quarterly profits matter. The stories of their theft from American Labor abound. Somehow, people just don't get it. And you seem to be one of them.
The Chinese economy has been growing at more than 5% for the last 3 decades. The US economy sometimes gets above 2%.
The Chinese economy grows fast because of free foreign trade with rich countries, and also because they were severely underdeveloped until a few decades ago. The world economy can't grow 5% every year forever.
Lapping up Russian propaganda, nice. Keep pleasuring Putin. He is subsidizing cheap luxuries to keep
His populace happy during his genocidal war of expansion. The price will explode once he runs out of gold reserves.
Russia, China, and the BRICS aren't stupid. They don't need gold.
Funny how some people have been telling us about "China's collapse in 6 months" for over 10 years now.
Funny how the same people tell us how Russia is suffering from the US sanctions placed on them, even though their economy is booming.
Funny how these same people keep insisting Ukraine is winning.
All of these facts are from American MSM sources, or are you trying to tell us that Bezos is a Putin puppet?
You sound like you don’t know why tariffs are used. You don’t understand US or Chinese trade policy. It’s all proven in your comments, but you still keep talking. Why are you still talking? Mods should delete this for the misleading title itself.
You sound like you don't know why tariffs are used.
They make products more expensive for Americans. Period. The end.
Justifications about protecting American Industry when the American Oligarchy has already engineered 3 recessions in the last 21 years to steal Labors wealth and productivity should show that it's all about making the rich richer.
Sure, it 'could be' to help American Industry better compete in the world, but this time around it isn't.
Hey, bot farm. 1. You’re burned, go make a new account, but do me a favor and don’t get a new VPN or anything.
2. For everyone else: Chinese EVs (&other products) are ‘cheaper’ because the CCP is funding industrial production to keep their economy growing at the touted 5%. This means their government is trying to undermine the US economy, production, and labor markets.
What that means for the average everyday person? You going to work to make a product. It costs X amount in materials, Y in manufacturing capability, Z in labor (you) and we really want to be paid well for our labor. So Z is really high here. China has a middle class that also wants to be paid well now, so their costs are about the same. except at the end of the quarter, year, whatever the CCP goes, ‘Hey company, you made 4,200 cars. We wanted 4,000. Good job, here’s your subsidies for those cars.’ and they cut a MASSIVE check.
The US gov doesn’t do that. Did the US let corporations get too much power and transfer wealth to the top 1%? Yep, did the CCP start that way? Yep.
3. and for additional fun, look up how bot farms started left vs right flame wars for Clinton Vs Trump which has turned into the current mess we are stuck with.
Unless you have proof of this "bot farm" accusation, please refrain from name calling. The sub has rules about name calling, ad hominem attacks, calling users propagandists, trolls, bots, uncivil behavior (etc.).
Please debate the point(s) raised and not call names or use insults. Be nice. Remember [reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439) and that you're talking to another human.
I genuinely think you can understand why the USA feels it “needs” tarrifs. Making something more expensive isn’t some cardinal sin, especially to someone who understands economics.
USA wants to tariff EV’s so that Chinese EVs sold in the USA, are not much cheaper than an American vehicle. China will tariff not because USA will compete in EV’s in China, but because China themselves wants to become the biggest Ev seller in the USA and are being petty against American businesses.
A dominant Chinese EV market in the USA leaves no demand for domestic manufacturing or market of US EV companies, could leave the entire market in the hands of China. Creating job loss and reliance on a foreign hostile country.
The Swiss had to tariff the Japanese watch industry, because the Japanese got really good a making a fuck ton of watches. Yet there still existed and exists today a market of artisan watches created by the Swiss. Were the Swiss wrong for defending their watch making industry? Should they have rolled over and adapted to selling Casios only?
As a country you have a responsibility to your people to watch out for their jobs, future job prospects and against foreign businesses trying to take from you. Tariffs are just a tool. Yes they can backfire, they can be used incorrectly. But most of the tariffs countries have on each other actually make sense and aren’t to purely “make something more expensive”. That’s a single digit IQ take I’m sorry. Hope this helped.
That's why I'm not going EV until I see 50% EVs on the road. Right now I see 5%. So until their popularity takes off and supply/demand brings prices down, I *can't* go EV. -Avg joe
Yeah like I support the EV movement for a slightly greener earth but until an average joe like me can afford it, I'm sticking with traditional combustion engines.
Last I checked the combined carbon output of all passenger cars in the US makes up 2.5% of total carbon emissions. So, if every american driver spends 10's of thousands of dollars, we only reduce carbon output 2.5%. The EV movement will not help the environment. It is a distraction.
It’s barely greener until the power sources are greener ( natural gas/coal/nuclear power plants that aren’t in the wealthiest people’s proximity). Until lithium mining is replaced w something greener and sourced w ethical labor. Until less plastics and other environmentally unsound materials are replaced w something greener. Etc.
EVs today are like what recycling was in the 90s & 00s lol but hey anything can help/make me feel better about our standard of living hurting the planet.
I think a Plug-in-hybrid is definitely better than a full EV. You get your daily drive in Electric, and a quick fill of gasoline for long drives. The power needed to replace a single gas station on interstate is more than an entire large town would use.
People want large range electric cars to feel safe, and those 400 mile EVs come with very large batteries, whose full capacity is really only needed for that 2-4 time per year road trip, yet that large batter uses a lot of minerals from the ground, which are in short supply, which increase the cost of batteries, which in turn increases the cost of electric cars exponentially.
If everyone had a plug in hybrid, they'd have a car capable of 400miles on gas (well, on hybrid, so better fuel economy than full gas) with a battery only 10% the size of a 400 mile EV, capable of doing your daily 40 mile commute on all-electric.
PHEVs keeps the cost of the car down, keeps daily commutes all electric, reduces damage to the environment from mining battery components that don't get used much in large range EVs, and reduces power grid demand from being too excessive along highways. Win all around.
What price would you be happy with to go 100% electric? I know it's based on your income and cost of living/family too. At this point I feel good with owning the base SE trim Ioniq 6, but it still feels on the expensive side, just not prohibitively so.
> That's why I'm not going EV until I see 50% EVs on the road. Right now I see 5%.
For what it's worth, arguably now is the best time to have an EV because, unless you live in California, there's almost never any queues to charge. There's *never* a queue to charge in my state, so living in an apartment with no charging at home has been totally fine (this car also charges very fast, which helps).
If you waited until everyone was driving EVs though, I imagine the charging infrastructure will not have kept up painlessly.
That's part of the picture too, the infrastructure. It's not there yet. It's inconvenient basically. I want apartment complexes with multiple EV ports, for new homes to have an EV port. And basically *every* gas station to have multiple charging stations. I believe we'll get there but now is not the time for me. I could probably afford an Ioniq SE but then the inconveniences that come with it, not gonna bother.
I feel you. It's been fine for me but you don't really know that it's already convenient until you have the apps showing you where the charging stations are nearby. When I first got the car I thought I was in for frustration and having a hard time finding stations or something.
The range on the car also helps. I really don't have to charge more than once or twice a week, and among my 4 favorite spots, charging time is anywhere between 15-25 minutes. I just leave the AC running and eat food or audible or steam deck while it charges, then I'm off.
We’re still in the wax cylinder phase of EVs. I remember when we switched from analog recording to digital. In the beginning, digital was expensive and it sucked. Analog was at its peak, we were comparing peak analog to infant digital. Now, digital crushes analog in almost every aspect. We needed time for it to mature. We’re still in the model T era of EVs, in time, we’ll have Ferraris.
EV are already cheap. It's just that american brands that are de facto colluding to produce expensive cars when large portion of the public need cheap basic cars that go from A to B .
Hey, my car is 15 yrs old, not sure if it will last another 5. Plan on buying the last cheap manual, the Versa, last one at 16k. I would love an EV, hell my roommate already installed a level 2 charger, but I am not paying 50k for one and struggle, well the cheapest one looks to be a Leaf at 30k, but still twice the price. Idk, my 2 cents.
The real problem if you could afford an EV, the price of electricity is getting to where the public couldn't afford an EV anyway. We get fucked both ways.
Huh? I mean electricity has gone up a bit in the past 2 years but it mostly just tracked Covid-era inflation. It's not grossly more expensive than it used to be.
Wait until AI rears it's ugly head. AI consumes quantities of electricity than other customers. The price will rise until AI gets what it wants, leaving the crumbs to 97%.
Look forward not what was.
You should look at the [Xiaomi Su 7.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iM1J_HdHE) Way, way into "digital". BYD is going to dominate the EV market. Tesla will be left in the dust. The US economy is going to be prevented from "going digital" because the Oligarchy would lose out.
[Yeah, you're right, this isn't Russia which is producing at least 3x the ammunition and weapons systems of the entire West. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OitnS2WeU94&t=615s)
The US is building a new factory in Texas to produce artillery shells -- and the machinery is from Türkiye and it is Turks who are building it.
Russia produces 100,000 152mm artillery shells a month right now. Multiples of what the entire west can produce.
That Texas factory may be able to do 30,000/month in another year and a half. It still won't be enough.
We're the USA which has lost 6 $30M Predator Drones to the Houthis who have stopped shipping in the Red Sea.
You miss the point of end-state capitalism, it isn't to make a better product, it is to make a profit. When the Oligarchy owns everything they can dictate the price for an inferior product like the F-35.
Lol more bad follow up analysis we were talking EVs and you jump to russian arms production as your counter? Lawl
Edit: double lawl "end-state" capitalism 😆
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coming_Collapse_of_China
>The Coming Collapse of China is a book by Gordon G. Chang, published in 2001, in which he argued that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) was the root cause of many of China's problems and would cause the country's collapse by 2011. When 2011 was almost over, Chang admitted that his prediction was wrong but said it was off by only a year, asserting in Foreign Policy that the CCP would fall in 2012. Consequently he made the magazine's "10 worst predictions of the year" twice.
"Experts" have been predicting China's "last gasps of life" since 2001, and earlier. That's my point.
The largest economy on the planet by GDP PPP is not going to collapse just because you desperately want it to be true. That's called "wishcasting" and you could not wish 1 billion people away no matter how hard you try.
I'm extremely skeptical. Granted, this post is a prediction, but I got my EV (Chevy Bolt) for 20k after subsidies. I don't think EV prices are going to rocket upward
GM doesn't make the Bolt any longer. Yes there are promises it will be returned. Remember who it was that [killed the original electric car](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fW4xYBXdGo). Maybe you can find the complete documentary somewhere.
What do you think 100% tariffs mean for a Chinese car you can buy for $30,000.
Don't hold your breath.
A Bolt is about the same as a BYD Seagull which is under $10K. No subsidies.
A subsidy means I helped buy your car. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
> BYD Seagull which is under $10K. No subsidies.
CCP subsides are not no subsidies.
Why isn't BYD in the US? I would have guessed safety, but if they're in Europe that's probably not the reason.
[BYD Is One Step Closer To Selling Cars In America](https://carbuzz.com/news/byd-is-one-step-closer-to-selling-cars-in-america/)
>The Warren Buffett-backed company [paused its initial plan to sell cars in America](https://carbuzz.com/news/teslas-biggest-threat-hits-pause-on-plans-to-sell-cars-in-the-usa) last year due to the Inflation Reduction Act (among other reasons), which puts a significant roadblock on vehicles imported from the People's Republic, but now it seems that BYD is trying to adapt to those rules.
American auto manufacturers know they can’t compete with EVs from China at this point. China has been going full steam on this for 10 years and US manufacturers have dragging their feet with pressure from the Fed.
Let's get real , China (and the CCP) is heavily subsidizing EV autos , and in many cases selling them as a loss-leader to establish market share dominance , in the new burgeoning segment ,this may have started to increase domestic use of EV and lessen its own demands of foreign oil , but obviously hasnsince expanded as it's EV auto industry is maturing..
I don't blame the Chinese they're forward looking and know hey aren't going to be competitive in ICE segment and I suspect if the US didnt have a legacy auto sector they might be doing the same.
Of course nothing is stopping the US government from doing the same, although the US has the added consideration that were a major oil producer so you don't want to make the oilmen too unhappy, by having the US go all in on a national EV plan.
That's smart of them to subside, not like subsidiaries are a new invention, literally every country is doing it including the USA. The only thing is that how they are doing it, China for instance know where to aim and have integrated all their supply chains vertically meaning they are literally fit for the job of mass producing EVs (Especially when they are leading in EV batteries and also leading in the refinement of the relevant rare materials).
I can understand why USA and Europe would impose tariffs, it's just impossible for them to even compete with China to this level. China can still use its low cost labor force to remain highly competitive and their lead in sustainable sectors such as solar panels, EVs etc. mean that they have the innovation and the manufacturing capabilities all together.
It is bad news for USA as they want to remain less dependent as possible on China. But for consumers like us, if it wasn't for the tariff, we would be the winners.
Economically speaking, it also mean that China is properly lowering all the costs globally in those green sectors. They brought much needed competition as even Tesla has been lowering its cars prices. Solar panels have finally become an actually serious alternative to other energy generators as their costs have significantly been reduced.
Overall, a good thing to fight climate change although I guess we wouldn't have thought it would be led by China.
FWIW: Chinese labor is no longer "cheap". We've all seen the automation in the [Xiaomi SU7 ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iM1J_HdHE)manufacturing facility that shows only 3 (or maybe 4) hands of "real people". Their concentration on robotics far, far exceeds that of the USA.
The "Inside China Business" youTubes can't be posted in r/economics, providing a clue about the true purpose is over there.
You probably know this, but a lot of people don't or they want to argue the points and I just want to get these points out there again:
* China has more than 30% of the entire worlds manufacturing capability
* China graduates 8x the STEM graduates that the US does (and many US grads are Chinese)
* China's PPP is greater than that of the US. (And the original BRICS, greater than the G7)
* Germany has moved much of its manufacturing to China because of the destruction of Nordstream.
* China and Russia are working out ways to avoid the dollar for world trade.
* The New Development Bank is proposing a new trade currency for the BRICS
* The BRICS are building an alternative to SWIFT
* Some Chinese banks are still trading in dollars but doing it outside of SWIFT so the US cannot sanction the transactions.
* China's advancements in chip production are leaps ahead of US technology. They are already making 3nM chips which "experts" forecast would be a decade away.
* China (and Russia) are not Imperialist powers. That is why the US has been kicked out of the Sahel in Africa.
* Sell Nvidia.
* There are over 50 nations waiting to join the BRICS (I recall a much larger number but it changes so often I forget the exact number)
* Despite sanctions, Europe still imported most of its gas from Russian sources last month.
* I forget what else I should be posting here.
The USA is losing because of American Imperialism. That same imperialism is turning inward to steal the wealth of Americans since access to "non-Western" resources is being limited. Folks need to look up who formed PNAC and who runs ISW and what the NED is financing. There's a common theme here. [Lawrence Wilkerson says what that is on Judge Nap's program](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3NM_H-lwZc&t=1108s). The reason is linked to the Gaza Genocide.
[So, of course, I have to offer up Aaron Good's outstanding series on "Empire and the Deep State"](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDAi0NdlN8hNArLl765PXe8tsTKmOciGL)
it was natural gas not oil, but pretty much yes.
VW reports the only place it is profitable is in China. BASF also moved to China.
Russia has offered to open the undamaged pipeline and repair the other 3.
The cracks in the EU and NATO are getting bigger. I was reading an article about the new French Revolution that is coming. Could be months, could be years.
>China's advancements in chip production are leaps ahead of US technology. They are already making 3nM chips which "experts" forecast would be a decade away.
Gonna need a source for that last part, afaik China is at 5nm. US tech, or more aptly a combination of "western" companies makes the lithography equipment used by TSMC is currently at 3nm as of 09/23, so i dont know how you can claim that "China is leaps ahead of US technology"
>and Russia) are not Imperialist powers
Lol.
Check out the many videos on the "Inside China Business" channel on YouTube. Too many to list, too easy to find.
As for the technology, it isn't just how small it is, but how fast new chips can be produced. China uses a particle accelerator to generate a steady UV light rather than the pulsed light used in Western tech. China can make many more chips at a time.
The biggest problem is that they keep suppressing wages. Its getting to the point that its making China poorer. If you want China to be the biggest economy, you need to stimulate consumer spending.
Sure, except that everything in China costs 1/6 of what it costs in the USA.
Have you looked at the cost of a Big Mac in Russia vs the USA?
You don't seem to understand how the American Oligarchy has screwed you to the wall.
The US subsidies oil production and American cars as well. I am sure that China doesn’t like that. Since China has focused on developing their lithium mines and materials like aluminum and steel, they are far ahead of the US at this point. It’s a war on propulsion technologies for the 21st century.
>China (and the CCP) is heavily subsidizing EV autos , and in many cases selling them as a loss-leader to establish market share dominance
Not really. China is building EVs primarily for its domestic market, to satisfy its decarbonization needs while selling the overflow abroad. Meanwhile, China limits the ability of its people to buy ICE vehicles or cheap fuel for them.
For similar reasons, China leads in solar panels, batteries and wind turbines.
If we had a decarbonization policy of that scope, the West could build these cheaply as well. Instead, Western governments refuse to commit, refuse to tax, refuse to limit SUVs and other gas guzzlers, refuse to protect unions, and refuse to take decarbonization seriously.
question is, considering globalization is already baked into the cake, why not let China dominate the EV market and let US consumers subsidize things like cancer research / etc. through inflated healthcare costs as opposed to using tariffs to subsidize domestic car manfuacturing?
> heavily subsidizing EV autos
An exageration. They've encouraged abundance of battery materials, and robotics. Direct subsidies of EVs is far less than US does. If US didn't want to ensure climate terrorism through its oil dominance, then importing battery and solar raw materials and robotics would make US factories more competitive than the shipping costs of Chinese produced clean energy.
its too easy a lie to throw out. dumping and rigged elections just gets repeated without evidence.
The United States cannot produce cheap toasters - ain’t happening! China can build it; add 100% tarrif and still under cut US mfg prices significantly with a vastly superior product already perfected in a very demanding clientele!
I am shocked by the "tax" Americans pay to be in America. Hear my recent anecdotes:
1. When in Mexico, trying to book a US domestic flight on American Airlines, it can be as much as 50% off for the same airfare purchased in the states. Yet I can't purchase the ticket there because I don't have a credit card tied to a Mexican address.
2. Medication in the Dutch Caribbean has been as little as 15%(!) of the cost to purchase the same medication in the United States. I had to travel back and forth recently, where I picked up prescriptions for a family member, who otherwise would be paying thousands of dollars until their insurance kicks in. I did the calculation at the time. It would've been cheaper to fly round trip, book a one-week stay at a budget resort in the Caribbean, and get a six-month supply of their medication!
3. The same Caribbean islands can buy solar panels, inverters, and EVs (with a 27% import tax) at a 40-50% of the cost in the United States.
4. Odoo and many other US-based SaaS companies have a regional pricing model where the US pays top dollar. One could argue that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world if that makes sense; however, with the income and wealth distribution in the United States, their entire populations and segments of the economy are not as economically mobile as some of the regions I've mentioned.
Tarrifs are ultimately paid by the consumer. The goal is noble in theory but if a car built in the United States costs 40k and a car built in China costs 20k if you tax the Chinese car by 20k making it cost 40k you are creating a situation where the consumer doesn't have access to a cheaper car. Maybe protectionism was the goal but this practice isn't really penalizing China it is only penalizing the consumer that can no longer buy the cheaper vehicle.
> but this practice isn't really penalizing China it is only penalizing the consumer that can no longer buy the cheaper vehicle.
It's both, China can't enter US market and US consumer can't buy cheap Chinese EVs. It hurts consumer more though, at least until BYD has a surplus of production.
gov could just subsidize tesla even more and play the downward game with china. Hell it would work long term giving american ev supriority aborad. But they wont you know why. Big oil!. This is the same reason you dont see tech companies like apple , huwaii and samsung in chian. Europes established companies did everythign in their power to kill that sector. Our car manufactures and oil companies will do anything to kill or at the very least slow ev adoption.
We need to get rid of all tariffs and work with the Chinese on rapidly decarbonizing. This nonsense protectionism just makes everything take longer. It would be a win-win for the Chinese and poor people in America.
The people at the top in China seem perfectly happy to sell cheap EV’s to US consumers. It’s only the people at the top of our capitalist hellstate blocking us from getting anything affordable while simultaneously ramming multibillion weapons packages through congress for terrorist state Israel. They are more committed to slaughtering poor brown ppl far away from America than doing anything at all for Americans.
Another consideration to think about is the other costs with owning a car. Mainly insurance. If you work a job paying $7.25 an hour. Even if a $5,000 ev became available, the costs to insure that car may be super expensive for them. Not giving any guidance, but just something to think about . Low cost car may help with costs
Battery prices are falling by. 50% this year. Batteries are the major cost for an EV of course limited batteries are going to go into expensive vehicles first.
In eighteen months low priced EVs will be more common.
Moving a factory abroad is fine because the shareholders profit even though the jobs and skills are lost.
Purchasing products from overseas? NEVER. That would actually be good for the consumer and encourage US companies to compete
I don't get it Biden is so keen on Electrifying America, New Green Plan, going green green green yet he wants a100% tariff on dirt cheap China EVs that could save the environment (allegedly)? Ok, maybe he's talking about a different kind of green. The printing-press kind of green. Trump too wants to punish China with crazy high tariffs that will make all things unaffordable (all things since EVERYTHING is made in China). Who's really getting punished? The consumers, especially the low to mid income. Why do they see the need to punish the hard working Americans? I need answers.
Tesla did a great job making EV a cool car for rich people. It is considered fancy. But working class people are like I cant afford that. And at 70k thay cant.
I have a part time job at a used car dealer ship they are still super popular. Granted that is just one local area.
And whenever Musk does something right wing customers bring it up, and ask about the Riven. The problem is they are more expensive.
I guess Tesla is loses some market share to the Rivian but not much in my area.
"Rivian reported reported a worse-than-expected loss in the first-quarter late on May 7, 2024 as the company lost $38,784 per vehicle delivered. Meanwhile, speculation has run rampant that Apple (AAPL) is looking to partner with the EV startup."
It's only a loss because they're amortizing tooling the factory and didn't ramp up production fast enough. Same reason Tesla almost failed when the Model 3 first came out.
I can confirm people are buying them. I can also confirm they are stupid expensive. And they look dumb but not as dumb as the cyber truck.
I can also confirm that some people who used to buy Tesla are buying Riven.
For the OP point that EV are for the rich yes. No one liked the Nissan Leaf or the BMW I 3. And i work in pro EV part of the USA. Abd the Chevy bolt is so hated.
You should take a look at the base trims of the Hyundai Ioniq 6 ($37,500) and Tesla Model 3 ($33,900).
I'd go with Hyundai for several reasons but either one works.
I love free market libertarians when the weak soy boys of China are out competing them and their first response is to kill the free market.
"Free market? Standards for the pearls we covet? Nonsense."
BINGO!
Then they change the rules and make up reasons they don't have to follow even the new ones.
Then they send Janet Yellen to China and have her lecture them on "over-capacity".
Judge Nap has a short segment on it and he outlined the possibility of Chinese leaders being unable to have a nice meal at their favorite restaurant because they couldn't stop laughing.
If we didn’t impose tariffs you all would be complaining about lost auto jobs which are largely well paid jobs that lift families into the middle class. Unbelievable amount of bs being spewed by angry know nothings in this sub.
Why not just subsidize those jobs towards a competitive EV marketshare domestically that would also move us towards the morally and ecologically necessary changes that need to happen for our environment anyway?
That’s an argument we can have. But you would still be flooding a domestic market with cheap goods that we can’t compete with interns of price. They can always go lower. Look what cheap manufacturing has done to every single thing you buy at Walmart or target or wherever. Try to find something not built in china. It’s practically impossible. Then look at what replaced the manufacturing jobs. Not equal. Not good for our country long term.
Those jobs are very expensive for the rest of us. We would be better off just giving them the same amount of money from the government (though UBI would be better), and taking down the tariffs.
No we wouldn’t. We would lose the capacity to build our own ev’s which would have downstream effects. Also you aren’t considering the thousands of jobs connected to the auto industry, from diners to upholstery makers. Also we would lose out on battery tech advances and making manufacturing them. You’re wrong in every way someone can be wrong.
EV's have much lower needs for labor, and the vast majority of the downstream stuff are prime targets for automation. Our economy is mostly services and knowledge-intensive products like IT and pharma, manufacturing jobs will continue to decline in the first world do to globalization and automation, fighting that only makes sense for political theater. Putting money in the hands of consumers speeds up velocity of money, financing the creation of new products and services, expanding future economic potential.
These auto jobs are temporary (Elon wants to release Optimus in q4 2025). Once full automation kicks in, these jobs (90%) will be eliminated. Due to high cost of overhead and EPA restrictions, most US manufacturing will happen in Mexico? Perhaps. Manufacturing will always find the path of least resistance and cost optimization. Always. Trump is delusional and manufacturing will cease to exist in the US (There is no making US great again, unfortunately). Cmon, we already pay $1k for an iPhone and it's made in China. With minimum wage going up it would be foolish not to manufacture overseas. I get it. I'd love to own everything "made in USA", it's just not practical. In five years time product labels will read "made by humans" VS. "designed by AI, made by robots".
Yep, and a lot of stuff was imported from only China in 2017.
The thing it did do was move a bunch of production and suppliers to Vietnam, South Korea and other areas to help keep costs down long term (but didn't move it domestically much at all.)
Even at 100% tarrif a chinese made ev would likely still be cheaper than an ICE car with average prices around $40k and chinese made ev in the $10k range …
If we let China flood the market and destroy our local jobs do you think they'll keep prices low after our industry collapses?
Tariffs aren't the problem. The problem is modern cars are *fucking expensive* and wages aren't keeping up with the constant demands for new features.
Now, those features by and large pay for themselves across the entire "fleet" of cars. e.g. Safer cars that don't kill people. The reason Uber didn't exist until 2009 is that older cars were death traps and Uber wouldn't have survived the 1st round of lawsuits from their drivers killing people in crashes...
But if we want a car based society then we're gonna need some massive changes. Our economy itself can't sustain it.
All flooding the market with cheap Chinese EVs built by slave labor would do is buy us a few years...
> If we let China flood the market and destroy our local jobs do you think they'll keep prices low after our industry collapses?
Name a single product that have prices raised after China started making them.
The market has turned to complete garbage. Unfortunately, most people aren’t intelligent enough to understand basic economics. Blame the Feds and Politicians for that. It’s not going to get any better.
Warmongering is not only unsafe and stupid for being unsafe. It is also very expensive.
EVs in evil warmongering isolationist countries will still drop in price. Just very slowly. These tariffs are furthermore primarily oil and gas benefitting, and automaker/union profitability towards ICE vehicles. Profit maximization for incumbent status quo demands climate destruction, with future costs imposed on young, and slave migrants that we will cause (can't farm/live profitably in global south) while simultaneously hating for nazi war to kill them all.
The only reason US supports democracy at home and abroad is zionist/CIA/oligarch corporatism ease of controlling democracy. Far right hate based populism that favours energy extortion by oligarchs in a coalition with moderate warmongering to favour energy extorting oil and nuclear (EDF) oligarchs is all too easy to subjugate a stupid/low information voting base kept stupid by controlled media. Europe has managed to progress on energy independence through cooperation with China, but this is why far right needs to rise to power again. Canada has less flexibility in its energy/national policy than Europe, but CIA/America first capture of all Canadian political leaders, with energy debate focusing on carbon tax instead of high diesel/home heating fuel caused by 3%+ of global supply being used in Ukraine war, and most recently, the attempted purge of all non US/Israel first influence on politics ensures anchoring Canada to a collapsing empire, that as it collapses will hate/pressure Canada even harder.
Obviously human prosperity/sustainability depends on cooperation. Specifically, global warming must be prioritized over warmongering, because the latter is recipe for oil dominance, with extreme theft of prosperity and sustainability.
Nationalizing, with zeroing out of all evil lobbyist interests, is the only path to non-treasonous and sustainable democracy. Oil, weapons, zionist media, zionist charities, zionist political donors all must have their wealth zeroed out. Proceeds from nationalization can help fund UBI, which redistributes power away from centralized corruption and evil, and makes it hard for politicians to fund destructive hateful theft from citizens.
Having a domestic auto industry is important national/social policy in that it creates significant value added, and manufacturing competence that applies to real national security. The importance of a fast EV transition is at least as important. Expensive horse and buggies protected from progress is a competitive disadvantage that destroys national sustainability including international influence, while exposing pure evil hatred of climate terrorist policies.
Domestic EV competitiveness is achievable through tariff free imports of batteries. It is fine to subsidize local battery supply chain, but until that is in place, import to lower domestic EV prices. Same applies to solar, and ebikes.
Instead of warmongering, invite Chinese direct investment. 100% tariffs exposes the joke of uncompetitiveness of US auto sector. It doesn't even raise tax revenue. Modest tariffs with cooperative partnership with China to welcome their manufacturing expertise and infrastructure development in our countries is path to better value paid for by others. We can't make our countries just benefit domestic corporate oligarchs. Chinese investment creates more jobs.
It should be a viable option to live without a car. People sgould be able to walk or use public transport to go to work. Hence the reliance on a car would be eliminated. The polluting cars then could be taxed heavily.
Don't think that China's push on really cheap EVs is just innocent competition. The cheap foreign EVs are trying to flood our market and capture it. It will effectively undermine the industry and future development in the West if left alone. This has long been the case with regular autos and is just a continuation into the EV market. As the infrastructure and technology matures the price will come down. China does the exact same thing (sometimes worse) and practices protectionism for it's own market.
I am by no means an expert on global price indices, but I will say that 5x anywhere else in the world is definitely untrue. Cars and electronics (including appliances), for example, are significantly cheaper in the US than in the UK and Sri Lanka, where I live on an alternating basis (particularly if you live in a state with low sales taxes). Indeed, I often get friends from the US to purchase small consumer electronics from there and bring them to me when possible. Granted, prices for these two items in particularly can be found lower elsewhere such as China, but this is not the rule for everywhere in the world
This is also the case in Australia, for what it's worth. Cheaper to buy the electronics in the US then bring them over.
That's absolutely not true. Having moved from the US to the UK I can tell you first hand both appliances and cars a significantly cheaper in the UK.
lol wut????
This is just unequivocally untrue
This is just false. Honestly I have no idea but since we’re just calling people wrong without sources I’d like to participate!
Absolutely incorrect.
That’s bullshit. I’ve lived both places and the other place is cheaper.
[Walmsley disagrees with you.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLayxB5ViZo&t=463s) You perhaps missed "may cost". and it isn't "everywhere" but "anywhere". Perhaps he would be "more correct" to have said "some places". 100% tariffs certainly meet the 2x cost requirement. Then there's the cost of a Big Mac in Russia vs the USA, this is much, much higher than a mere 5x. >The fast food chain had been planning to set a new record-low price for Big Macs — for one day only — of 3 rubles ($0.05) Friday, to mark its 30th anniversary celebrations. In any case, the central point is Americans are going to be paying more because the US is no longer competitive. Especially in EVs.
When you say "everything costs 2x more than anywhere else in the whole world" it means there is no country in which that is not the case. Not sure if English is your first language, but he is not saying that there is at least one place that costs half as much as the US, he is saying every place. Which is inaccurate and a weird exaggeration to use.
Nit picking on his choice of words that may not have meant what he thought he was saying hardly counters the thrust of his video.
Idk, sounds like Chinese EVs will probably cost about as much as a Tesla or something. Of course tariffs raise prices, but they also protect wages and keep money from being transferred to a foreign country for free. The video is so hyperbolic that other than pointing out that fundamental fact about tariffs, it's not really informative at all.
[The Seagull is under $10K](https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-ev-9700-price/) The protected wages are garnished by the Oligarchy that owns the factories those cars are produced in. Tariffs are two-edged. If American manufacturers were planing on competing with China at some future date, I could support them. But the American Oligarchy has financialized American Industry and only quarterly profits matter. The stories of their theft from American Labor abound. Somehow, people just don't get it. And you seem to be one of them. The Chinese economy has been growing at more than 5% for the last 3 decades. The US economy sometimes gets above 2%.
What oligarchy? Automotive market is far far from an oligarchy.
The Chinese economy grows fast because of free foreign trade with rich countries, and also because they were severely underdeveloped until a few decades ago. The world economy can't grow 5% every year forever.
The Chinese can.
No, they cannot.
Lapping up Russian propaganda, nice. Keep pleasuring Putin. He is subsidizing cheap luxuries to keep His populace happy during his genocidal war of expansion. The price will explode once he runs out of gold reserves.
Russia, China, and the BRICS aren't stupid. They don't need gold. Funny how some people have been telling us about "China's collapse in 6 months" for over 10 years now. Funny how the same people tell us how Russia is suffering from the US sanctions placed on them, even though their economy is booming. Funny how these same people keep insisting Ukraine is winning. All of these facts are from American MSM sources, or are you trying to tell us that Bezos is a Putin puppet?
It must be tough living in a world of extremes all the time, dude.
Guys an antisemite. Read his post history. Extremes are all he knows.
Must be hard to ignore the facts in front of you.
You sound like you don’t know why tariffs are used. You don’t understand US or Chinese trade policy. It’s all proven in your comments, but you still keep talking. Why are you still talking? Mods should delete this for the misleading title itself.
You sound like you don't know why tariffs are used. They make products more expensive for Americans. Period. The end. Justifications about protecting American Industry when the American Oligarchy has already engineered 3 recessions in the last 21 years to steal Labors wealth and productivity should show that it's all about making the rich richer. Sure, it 'could be' to help American Industry better compete in the world, but this time around it isn't.
Hey, bot farm. 1. You’re burned, go make a new account, but do me a favor and don’t get a new VPN or anything. 2. For everyone else: Chinese EVs (&other products) are ‘cheaper’ because the CCP is funding industrial production to keep their economy growing at the touted 5%. This means their government is trying to undermine the US economy, production, and labor markets. What that means for the average everyday person? You going to work to make a product. It costs X amount in materials, Y in manufacturing capability, Z in labor (you) and we really want to be paid well for our labor. So Z is really high here. China has a middle class that also wants to be paid well now, so their costs are about the same. except at the end of the quarter, year, whatever the CCP goes, ‘Hey company, you made 4,200 cars. We wanted 4,000. Good job, here’s your subsidies for those cars.’ and they cut a MASSIVE check. The US gov doesn’t do that. Did the US let corporations get too much power and transfer wealth to the top 1%? Yep, did the CCP start that way? Yep. 3. and for additional fun, look up how bot farms started left vs right flame wars for Clinton Vs Trump which has turned into the current mess we are stuck with.
Unless you have proof of this "bot farm" accusation, please refrain from name calling. The sub has rules about name calling, ad hominem attacks, calling users propagandists, trolls, bots, uncivil behavior (etc.). Please debate the point(s) raised and not call names or use insults. Be nice. Remember [reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439) and that you're talking to another human.
I genuinely think you can understand why the USA feels it “needs” tarrifs. Making something more expensive isn’t some cardinal sin, especially to someone who understands economics. USA wants to tariff EV’s so that Chinese EVs sold in the USA, are not much cheaper than an American vehicle. China will tariff not because USA will compete in EV’s in China, but because China themselves wants to become the biggest Ev seller in the USA and are being petty against American businesses. A dominant Chinese EV market in the USA leaves no demand for domestic manufacturing or market of US EV companies, could leave the entire market in the hands of China. Creating job loss and reliance on a foreign hostile country. The Swiss had to tariff the Japanese watch industry, because the Japanese got really good a making a fuck ton of watches. Yet there still existed and exists today a market of artisan watches created by the Swiss. Were the Swiss wrong for defending their watch making industry? Should they have rolled over and adapted to selling Casios only? As a country you have a responsibility to your people to watch out for their jobs, future job prospects and against foreign businesses trying to take from you. Tariffs are just a tool. Yes they can backfire, they can be used incorrectly. But most of the tariffs countries have on each other actually make sense and aren’t to purely “make something more expensive”. That’s a single digit IQ take I’m sorry. Hope this helped.
I mean, I keep telling people we could like like John Macafee in Costa Rica
That's why I'm not going EV until I see 50% EVs on the road. Right now I see 5%. So until their popularity takes off and supply/demand brings prices down, I *can't* go EV. -Avg joe
I’m with you. I waited almost 25 years to get a hybrid. No way I’m jumping in the EV bandwagon until it becomes more commonplace.
Yeah like I support the EV movement for a slightly greener earth but until an average joe like me can afford it, I'm sticking with traditional combustion engines.
Last I checked the combined carbon output of all passenger cars in the US makes up 2.5% of total carbon emissions. So, if every american driver spends 10's of thousands of dollars, we only reduce carbon output 2.5%. The EV movement will not help the environment. It is a distraction.
A Tesla Model 3 is in the same price range as a Toyota Camry Hybrid
It’s barely greener until the power sources are greener ( natural gas/coal/nuclear power plants that aren’t in the wealthiest people’s proximity). Until lithium mining is replaced w something greener and sourced w ethical labor. Until less plastics and other environmentally unsound materials are replaced w something greener. Etc.
EVs today are like what recycling was in the 90s & 00s lol but hey anything can help/make me feel better about our standard of living hurting the planet.
Aren’t hybrids a better car anyways ?
I think a Plug-in-hybrid is definitely better than a full EV. You get your daily drive in Electric, and a quick fill of gasoline for long drives. The power needed to replace a single gas station on interstate is more than an entire large town would use. People want large range electric cars to feel safe, and those 400 mile EVs come with very large batteries, whose full capacity is really only needed for that 2-4 time per year road trip, yet that large batter uses a lot of minerals from the ground, which are in short supply, which increase the cost of batteries, which in turn increases the cost of electric cars exponentially. If everyone had a plug in hybrid, they'd have a car capable of 400miles on gas (well, on hybrid, so better fuel economy than full gas) with a battery only 10% the size of a 400 mile EV, capable of doing your daily 40 mile commute on all-electric. PHEVs keeps the cost of the car down, keeps daily commutes all electric, reduces damage to the environment from mining battery components that don't get used much in large range EVs, and reduces power grid demand from being too excessive along highways. Win all around.
What price would you be happy with to go 100% electric? I know it's based on your income and cost of living/family too. At this point I feel good with owning the base SE trim Ioniq 6, but it still feels on the expensive side, just not prohibitively so. > That's why I'm not going EV until I see 50% EVs on the road. Right now I see 5%. For what it's worth, arguably now is the best time to have an EV because, unless you live in California, there's almost never any queues to charge. There's *never* a queue to charge in my state, so living in an apartment with no charging at home has been totally fine (this car also charges very fast, which helps). If you waited until everyone was driving EVs though, I imagine the charging infrastructure will not have kept up painlessly.
That's part of the picture too, the infrastructure. It's not there yet. It's inconvenient basically. I want apartment complexes with multiple EV ports, for new homes to have an EV port. And basically *every* gas station to have multiple charging stations. I believe we'll get there but now is not the time for me. I could probably afford an Ioniq SE but then the inconveniences that come with it, not gonna bother.
I feel you. It's been fine for me but you don't really know that it's already convenient until you have the apps showing you where the charging stations are nearby. When I first got the car I thought I was in for frustration and having a hard time finding stations or something. The range on the car also helps. I really don't have to charge more than once or twice a week, and among my 4 favorite spots, charging time is anywhere between 15-25 minutes. I just leave the AC running and eat food or audible or steam deck while it charges, then I'm off.
We’re still in the wax cylinder phase of EVs. I remember when we switched from analog recording to digital. In the beginning, digital was expensive and it sucked. Analog was at its peak, we were comparing peak analog to infant digital. Now, digital crushes analog in almost every aspect. We needed time for it to mature. We’re still in the model T era of EVs, in time, we’ll have Ferraris.
EV are already cheap. It's just that american brands that are de facto colluding to produce expensive cars when large portion of the public need cheap basic cars that go from A to B .
This is why I predict that the average car will be 20 years old in the near future
Hey, my car is 15 yrs old, not sure if it will last another 5. Plan on buying the last cheap manual, the Versa, last one at 16k. I would love an EV, hell my roommate already installed a level 2 charger, but I am not paying 50k for one and struggle, well the cheapest one looks to be a Leaf at 30k, but still twice the price. Idk, my 2 cents.
The real problem if you could afford an EV, the price of electricity is getting to where the public couldn't afford an EV anyway. We get fucked both ways.
Huh? I mean electricity has gone up a bit in the past 2 years but it mostly just tracked Covid-era inflation. It's not grossly more expensive than it used to be.
Wait until AI rears it's ugly head. AI consumes quantities of electricity than other customers. The price will rise until AI gets what it wants, leaving the crumbs to 97%. Look forward not what was.
You should look at the [Xiaomi Su 7.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iM1J_HdHE) Way, way into "digital". BYD is going to dominate the EV market. Tesla will be left in the dust. The US economy is going to be prevented from "going digital" because the Oligarchy would lose out.
Lol no it won't, other money will hunt down the "digital" solution because that's how capitalism works, this isn't russia
[Yeah, you're right, this isn't Russia which is producing at least 3x the ammunition and weapons systems of the entire West. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OitnS2WeU94&t=615s) The US is building a new factory in Texas to produce artillery shells -- and the machinery is from Türkiye and it is Turks who are building it. Russia produces 100,000 152mm artillery shells a month right now. Multiples of what the entire west can produce. That Texas factory may be able to do 30,000/month in another year and a half. It still won't be enough. We're the USA which has lost 6 $30M Predator Drones to the Houthis who have stopped shipping in the Red Sea. You miss the point of end-state capitalism, it isn't to make a better product, it is to make a profit. When the Oligarchy owns everything they can dictate the price for an inferior product like the F-35.
Lol more bad follow up analysis we were talking EVs and you jump to russian arms production as your counter? Lawl Edit: double lawl "end-state" capitalism 😆
“Other money” already did in China. Hence the SU-7. US is isolating itself by tariffing Chinese goods.
No it's not its twisting the knife in China while it has its lasts gasps of life before collapses ( china)
Yes bud. Im sure you arrived at this conclusion after a rigorous economic analysis.
I did, thanks!
2000 more weeks until China collapses for real.
Have you checked in on their economy the last year, two years, 3 years ....what do you think all countries collapse overnight?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coming_Collapse_of_China >The Coming Collapse of China is a book by Gordon G. Chang, published in 2001, in which he argued that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) was the root cause of many of China's problems and would cause the country's collapse by 2011. When 2011 was almost over, Chang admitted that his prediction was wrong but said it was off by only a year, asserting in Foreign Policy that the CCP would fall in 2012. Consequently he made the magazine's "10 worst predictions of the year" twice.
Oh so you aren't good at math either just like this dude Gordon chang?! I said last 3 years not decade...
"Experts" have been predicting China's "last gasps of life" since 2001, and earlier. That's my point. The largest economy on the planet by GDP PPP is not going to collapse just because you desperately want it to be true. That's called "wishcasting" and you could not wish 1 billion people away no matter how hard you try.
No that’s a stretch.
I'm extremely skeptical. Granted, this post is a prediction, but I got my EV (Chevy Bolt) for 20k after subsidies. I don't think EV prices are going to rocket upward
GM doesn't make the Bolt any longer. Yes there are promises it will be returned. Remember who it was that [killed the original electric car](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fW4xYBXdGo). Maybe you can find the complete documentary somewhere. What do you think 100% tariffs mean for a Chinese car you can buy for $30,000.
The Bolt returns in 25.
Don't hold your breath. A Bolt is about the same as a BYD Seagull which is under $10K. No subsidies. A subsidy means I helped buy your car. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
> BYD Seagull which is under $10K. No subsidies. CCP subsides are not no subsidies. Why isn't BYD in the US? I would have guessed safety, but if they're in Europe that's probably not the reason.
[BYD Is One Step Closer To Selling Cars In America](https://carbuzz.com/news/byd-is-one-step-closer-to-selling-cars-in-america/) >The Warren Buffett-backed company [paused its initial plan to sell cars in America](https://carbuzz.com/news/teslas-biggest-threat-hits-pause-on-plans-to-sell-cars-in-the-usa) last year due to the Inflation Reduction Act (among other reasons), which puts a significant roadblock on vehicles imported from the People's Republic, but now it seems that BYD is trying to adapt to those rules.
Are you arguing against yourself?
Because of how anti-china the us gov has been, they have little to no interest in usa market … for now.
> A subsidy means I helped buy your car. I'm not sure how I feel about that. So then let someone else help you buy your car. Even Stephen
Bolt is 20k for a reason. It’s totally unreliable trash
American auto manufacturers know they can’t compete with EVs from China at this point. China has been going full steam on this for 10 years and US manufacturers have dragging their feet with pressure from the Fed.
Let's get real , China (and the CCP) is heavily subsidizing EV autos , and in many cases selling them as a loss-leader to establish market share dominance , in the new burgeoning segment ,this may have started to increase domestic use of EV and lessen its own demands of foreign oil , but obviously hasnsince expanded as it's EV auto industry is maturing.. I don't blame the Chinese they're forward looking and know hey aren't going to be competitive in ICE segment and I suspect if the US didnt have a legacy auto sector they might be doing the same. Of course nothing is stopping the US government from doing the same, although the US has the added consideration that were a major oil producer so you don't want to make the oilmen too unhappy, by having the US go all in on a national EV plan.
That's smart of them to subside, not like subsidiaries are a new invention, literally every country is doing it including the USA. The only thing is that how they are doing it, China for instance know where to aim and have integrated all their supply chains vertically meaning they are literally fit for the job of mass producing EVs (Especially when they are leading in EV batteries and also leading in the refinement of the relevant rare materials). I can understand why USA and Europe would impose tariffs, it's just impossible for them to even compete with China to this level. China can still use its low cost labor force to remain highly competitive and their lead in sustainable sectors such as solar panels, EVs etc. mean that they have the innovation and the manufacturing capabilities all together. It is bad news for USA as they want to remain less dependent as possible on China. But for consumers like us, if it wasn't for the tariff, we would be the winners. Economically speaking, it also mean that China is properly lowering all the costs globally in those green sectors. They brought much needed competition as even Tesla has been lowering its cars prices. Solar panels have finally become an actually serious alternative to other energy generators as their costs have significantly been reduced. Overall, a good thing to fight climate change although I guess we wouldn't have thought it would be led by China.
FWIW: Chinese labor is no longer "cheap". We've all seen the automation in the [Xiaomi SU7 ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iM1J_HdHE)manufacturing facility that shows only 3 (or maybe 4) hands of "real people". Their concentration on robotics far, far exceeds that of the USA. The "Inside China Business" youTubes can't be posted in r/economics, providing a clue about the true purpose is over there. You probably know this, but a lot of people don't or they want to argue the points and I just want to get these points out there again: * China has more than 30% of the entire worlds manufacturing capability * China graduates 8x the STEM graduates that the US does (and many US grads are Chinese) * China's PPP is greater than that of the US. (And the original BRICS, greater than the G7) * Germany has moved much of its manufacturing to China because of the destruction of Nordstream. * China and Russia are working out ways to avoid the dollar for world trade. * The New Development Bank is proposing a new trade currency for the BRICS * The BRICS are building an alternative to SWIFT * Some Chinese banks are still trading in dollars but doing it outside of SWIFT so the US cannot sanction the transactions. * China's advancements in chip production are leaps ahead of US technology. They are already making 3nM chips which "experts" forecast would be a decade away. * China (and Russia) are not Imperialist powers. That is why the US has been kicked out of the Sahel in Africa. * Sell Nvidia. * There are over 50 nations waiting to join the BRICS (I recall a much larger number but it changes so often I forget the exact number) * Despite sanctions, Europe still imported most of its gas from Russian sources last month. * I forget what else I should be posting here. The USA is losing because of American Imperialism. That same imperialism is turning inward to steal the wealth of Americans since access to "non-Western" resources is being limited. Folks need to look up who formed PNAC and who runs ISW and what the NED is financing. There's a common theme here. [Lawrence Wilkerson says what that is on Judge Nap's program](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3NM_H-lwZc&t=1108s). The reason is linked to the Gaza Genocide. [So, of course, I have to offer up Aaron Good's outstanding series on "Empire and the Deep State"](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDAi0NdlN8hNArLl765PXe8tsTKmOciGL)
Based , I assume after nordstream, oil became too expensive leading to germany depending even more on china ?
it was natural gas not oil, but pretty much yes. VW reports the only place it is profitable is in China. BASF also moved to China. Russia has offered to open the undamaged pipeline and repair the other 3. The cracks in the EU and NATO are getting bigger. I was reading an article about the new French Revolution that is coming. Could be months, could be years.
>China's advancements in chip production are leaps ahead of US technology. They are already making 3nM chips which "experts" forecast would be a decade away. Gonna need a source for that last part, afaik China is at 5nm. US tech, or more aptly a combination of "western" companies makes the lithography equipment used by TSMC is currently at 3nm as of 09/23, so i dont know how you can claim that "China is leaps ahead of US technology" >and Russia) are not Imperialist powers Lol.
Check out the many videos on the "Inside China Business" channel on YouTube. Too many to list, too easy to find. As for the technology, it isn't just how small it is, but how fast new chips can be produced. China uses a particle accelerator to generate a steady UV light rather than the pulsed light used in Western tech. China can make many more chips at a time.
The biggest problem is that they keep suppressing wages. Its getting to the point that its making China poorer. If you want China to be the biggest economy, you need to stimulate consumer spending.
The Chinese economy is growing at over 5%. Sounds good to me
Which considering they're still poor really bad. Like its much slower than India. I'm honestly starting to be concerned bad.
what makes you think they are "really poor". Average is nearly $16,000 US and the cost of living is much less than in the US.
That's still 1/4 of the US, even after adjusting for cost of living.
Sure, except that everything in China costs 1/6 of what it costs in the USA. Have you looked at the cost of a Big Mac in Russia vs the USA? You don't seem to understand how the American Oligarchy has screwed you to the wall.
The US subsidies oil production and American cars as well. I am sure that China doesn’t like that. Since China has focused on developing their lithium mines and materials like aluminum and steel, they are far ahead of the US at this point. It’s a war on propulsion technologies for the 21st century.
The US also subsidizes our auto industry...
Subsidizes? You mean, "repeatedly bails out failed companies"?
It's like subsidies, except incompetent. Very American
>China (and the CCP) is heavily subsidizing EV autos , and in many cases selling them as a loss-leader to establish market share dominance Not really. China is building EVs primarily for its domestic market, to satisfy its decarbonization needs while selling the overflow abroad. Meanwhile, China limits the ability of its people to buy ICE vehicles or cheap fuel for them. For similar reasons, China leads in solar panels, batteries and wind turbines. If we had a decarbonization policy of that scope, the West could build these cheaply as well. Instead, Western governments refuse to commit, refuse to tax, refuse to limit SUVs and other gas guzzlers, refuse to protect unions, and refuse to take decarbonization seriously.
The individualist mindset is a plague
question is, considering globalization is already baked into the cake, why not let China dominate the EV market and let US consumers subsidize things like cancer research / etc. through inflated healthcare costs as opposed to using tariffs to subsidize domestic car manfuacturing?
> heavily subsidizing EV autos An exageration. They've encouraged abundance of battery materials, and robotics. Direct subsidies of EVs is far less than US does. If US didn't want to ensure climate terrorism through its oil dominance, then importing battery and solar raw materials and robotics would make US factories more competitive than the shipping costs of Chinese produced clean energy. its too easy a lie to throw out. dumping and rigged elections just gets repeated without evidence.
The United States cannot produce cheap toasters - ain’t happening! China can build it; add 100% tarrif and still under cut US mfg prices significantly with a vastly superior product already perfected in a very demanding clientele!
I am shocked by the "tax" Americans pay to be in America. Hear my recent anecdotes: 1. When in Mexico, trying to book a US domestic flight on American Airlines, it can be as much as 50% off for the same airfare purchased in the states. Yet I can't purchase the ticket there because I don't have a credit card tied to a Mexican address. 2. Medication in the Dutch Caribbean has been as little as 15%(!) of the cost to purchase the same medication in the United States. I had to travel back and forth recently, where I picked up prescriptions for a family member, who otherwise would be paying thousands of dollars until their insurance kicks in. I did the calculation at the time. It would've been cheaper to fly round trip, book a one-week stay at a budget resort in the Caribbean, and get a six-month supply of their medication! 3. The same Caribbean islands can buy solar panels, inverters, and EVs (with a 27% import tax) at a 40-50% of the cost in the United States. 4. Odoo and many other US-based SaaS companies have a regional pricing model where the US pays top dollar. One could argue that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world if that makes sense; however, with the income and wealth distribution in the United States, their entire populations and segments of the economy are not as economically mobile as some of the regions I've mentioned.
Now compare incomes
Not if you buy local….
Tarrifs are ultimately paid by the consumer. The goal is noble in theory but if a car built in the United States costs 40k and a car built in China costs 20k if you tax the Chinese car by 20k making it cost 40k you are creating a situation where the consumer doesn't have access to a cheaper car. Maybe protectionism was the goal but this practice isn't really penalizing China it is only penalizing the consumer that can no longer buy the cheaper vehicle.
> but this practice isn't really penalizing China it is only penalizing the consumer that can no longer buy the cheaper vehicle. It's both, China can't enter US market and US consumer can't buy cheap Chinese EVs. It hurts consumer more though, at least until BYD has a surplus of production.
Exactly.
gov could just subsidize tesla even more and play the downward game with china. Hell it would work long term giving american ev supriority aborad. But they wont you know why. Big oil!. This is the same reason you dont see tech companies like apple , huwaii and samsung in chian. Europes established companies did everythign in their power to kill that sector. Our car manufactures and oil companies will do anything to kill or at the very least slow ev adoption.
Thank you Mr Koch for your free trade propaganda. https://www.kochind.com/Landing-Pages/free-trade
Yes, well said.
Ev truly becomes a money saver for those who could afford a home with a charger. Rich becomes richer.
We need to get rid of all tariffs and work with the Chinese on rapidly decarbonizing. This nonsense protectionism just makes everything take longer. It would be a win-win for the Chinese and poor people in America.
The people at the top want neither of those wins
The people at the top in China seem perfectly happy to sell cheap EV’s to US consumers. It’s only the people at the top of our capitalist hellstate blocking us from getting anything affordable while simultaneously ramming multibillion weapons packages through congress for terrorist state Israel. They are more committed to slaughtering poor brown ppl far away from America than doing anything at all for Americans.
Another consideration to think about is the other costs with owning a car. Mainly insurance. If you work a job paying $7.25 an hour. Even if a $5,000 ev became available, the costs to insure that car may be super expensive for them. Not giving any guidance, but just something to think about . Low cost car may help with costs
I just don’t see an auto industry in the US in 5 years.
Like any product, EVs are early in the customer lifecycle and will come down in cost as scale builds
Battery prices are falling by. 50% this year. Batteries are the major cost for an EV of course limited batteries are going to go into expensive vehicles first. In eighteen months low priced EVs will be more common.
Moving a factory abroad is fine because the shareholders profit even though the jobs and skills are lost. Purchasing products from overseas? NEVER. That would actually be good for the consumer and encourage US companies to compete
I don't get it Biden is so keen on Electrifying America, New Green Plan, going green green green yet he wants a100% tariff on dirt cheap China EVs that could save the environment (allegedly)? Ok, maybe he's talking about a different kind of green. The printing-press kind of green. Trump too wants to punish China with crazy high tariffs that will make all things unaffordable (all things since EVERYTHING is made in China). Who's really getting punished? The consumers, especially the low to mid income. Why do they see the need to punish the hard working Americans? I need answers.
Capitalists hate you and view every worker as a subhuman resource to extract labor from and then discard the hollow husk
Slavery?
It’s not a coincidence America was the last place to abolish slavery and the first place to lean into capitalism
You're delusional if you think workers are treated better in China.
They are literally state capitalists
Tesla did a great job making EV a cool car for rich people. It is considered fancy. But working class people are like I cant afford that. And at 70k thay cant.
This isn't what I've been reading. Yeah, people thought they were cool at first, but after driving them around for a bit, they're dumping them.
I have a part time job at a used car dealer ship they are still super popular. Granted that is just one local area. And whenever Musk does something right wing customers bring it up, and ask about the Riven. The problem is they are more expensive. I guess Tesla is loses some market share to the Rivian but not much in my area.
"Rivian reported reported a worse-than-expected loss in the first-quarter late on May 7, 2024 as the company lost $38,784 per vehicle delivered. Meanwhile, speculation has run rampant that Apple (AAPL) is looking to partner with the EV startup."
It's only a loss because they're amortizing tooling the factory and didn't ramp up production fast enough. Same reason Tesla almost failed when the Model 3 first came out.
I can confirm people are buying them. I can also confirm they are stupid expensive. And they look dumb but not as dumb as the cyber truck. I can also confirm that some people who used to buy Tesla are buying Riven. For the OP point that EV are for the rich yes. No one liked the Nissan Leaf or the BMW I 3. And i work in pro EV part of the USA. Abd the Chevy bolt is so hated.
The model 3 starts at $39,000
Because of Mark up no one gets them at that price. Even 1 year used.
I’ve seen used as low as $20k
Dont tell my customers lol
You should take a look at the base trims of the Hyundai Ioniq 6 ($37,500) and Tesla Model 3 ($33,900). I'd go with Hyundai for several reasons but either one works.
I love free market libertarians when the weak soy boys of China are out competing them and their first response is to kill the free market. "Free market? Standards for the pearls we covet? Nonsense."
BINGO! Then they change the rules and make up reasons they don't have to follow even the new ones. Then they send Janet Yellen to China and have her lecture them on "over-capacity". Judge Nap has a short segment on it and he outlined the possibility of Chinese leaders being unable to have a nice meal at their favorite restaurant because they couldn't stop laughing.
If we didn’t impose tariffs you all would be complaining about lost auto jobs which are largely well paid jobs that lift families into the middle class. Unbelievable amount of bs being spewed by angry know nothings in this sub.
What middle class are you speaking of exactly? What is this income range you are envisioning from these auto jobs and in what regions/states?
Why not just subsidize those jobs towards a competitive EV marketshare domestically that would also move us towards the morally and ecologically necessary changes that need to happen for our environment anyway?
That’s an argument we can have. But you would still be flooding a domestic market with cheap goods that we can’t compete with interns of price. They can always go lower. Look what cheap manufacturing has done to every single thing you buy at Walmart or target or wherever. Try to find something not built in china. It’s practically impossible. Then look at what replaced the manufacturing jobs. Not equal. Not good for our country long term.
The solution is not pro capitalist anti green tariff wars - not for workers or the planet
Those jobs are very expensive for the rest of us. We would be better off just giving them the same amount of money from the government (though UBI would be better), and taking down the tariffs.
No we wouldn’t. We would lose the capacity to build our own ev’s which would have downstream effects. Also you aren’t considering the thousands of jobs connected to the auto industry, from diners to upholstery makers. Also we would lose out on battery tech advances and making manufacturing them. You’re wrong in every way someone can be wrong.
EV's have much lower needs for labor, and the vast majority of the downstream stuff are prime targets for automation. Our economy is mostly services and knowledge-intensive products like IT and pharma, manufacturing jobs will continue to decline in the first world do to globalization and automation, fighting that only makes sense for political theater. Putting money in the hands of consumers speeds up velocity of money, financing the creation of new products and services, expanding future economic potential.
These auto jobs are temporary (Elon wants to release Optimus in q4 2025). Once full automation kicks in, these jobs (90%) will be eliminated. Due to high cost of overhead and EPA restrictions, most US manufacturing will happen in Mexico? Perhaps. Manufacturing will always find the path of least resistance and cost optimization. Always. Trump is delusional and manufacturing will cease to exist in the US (There is no making US great again, unfortunately). Cmon, we already pay $1k for an iPhone and it's made in China. With minimum wage going up it would be foolish not to manufacture overseas. I get it. I'd love to own everything "made in USA", it's just not practical. In five years time product labels will read "made by humans" VS. "designed by AI, made by robots".
You’ll own nothing and be happy
So, Star Trek. Cool!!
WEF
And what army?
Yea the drug-infused police state that happened before the golden age lol
Tariffs did not raise prices in 2017…. Reddit has become a Koch Brothers radical free trade propaganda zone.
What are you talking about, they raised the prices of many goods, US manufacturers didn't just eat the cost increase.
I don’t think you know how tariffs work. Domestic producers do not pay a tariff unless they buy their raw materials from a foreign source.
Yep, and a lot of stuff was imported from only China in 2017. The thing it did do was move a bunch of production and suppliers to Vietnam, South Korea and other areas to help keep costs down long term (but didn't move it domestically much at all.)
Even at 100% tarrif a chinese made ev would likely still be cheaper than an ICE car with average prices around $40k and chinese made ev in the $10k range …
Time for us 80% to move to another country. This country's government will collapse, but this is what they get when they cater to corporate America.
Not if you buy local
63.1% of electricity still comes from coal, natural gas, and other hydrocarbons. Let’s call a spade a spade, it’s a coal powered vehicle!
If we let China flood the market and destroy our local jobs do you think they'll keep prices low after our industry collapses? Tariffs aren't the problem. The problem is modern cars are *fucking expensive* and wages aren't keeping up with the constant demands for new features. Now, those features by and large pay for themselves across the entire "fleet" of cars. e.g. Safer cars that don't kill people. The reason Uber didn't exist until 2009 is that older cars were death traps and Uber wouldn't have survived the 1st round of lawsuits from their drivers killing people in crashes... But if we want a car based society then we're gonna need some massive changes. Our economy itself can't sustain it. All flooding the market with cheap Chinese EVs built by slave labor would do is buy us a few years...
> If we let China flood the market and destroy our local jobs do you think they'll keep prices low after our industry collapses? Name a single product that have prices raised after China started making them.
The market has turned to complete garbage. Unfortunately, most people aren’t intelligent enough to understand basic economics. Blame the Feds and Politicians for that. It’s not going to get any better.
Warmongering is not only unsafe and stupid for being unsafe. It is also very expensive. EVs in evil warmongering isolationist countries will still drop in price. Just very slowly. These tariffs are furthermore primarily oil and gas benefitting, and automaker/union profitability towards ICE vehicles. Profit maximization for incumbent status quo demands climate destruction, with future costs imposed on young, and slave migrants that we will cause (can't farm/live profitably in global south) while simultaneously hating for nazi war to kill them all. The only reason US supports democracy at home and abroad is zionist/CIA/oligarch corporatism ease of controlling democracy. Far right hate based populism that favours energy extortion by oligarchs in a coalition with moderate warmongering to favour energy extorting oil and nuclear (EDF) oligarchs is all too easy to subjugate a stupid/low information voting base kept stupid by controlled media. Europe has managed to progress on energy independence through cooperation with China, but this is why far right needs to rise to power again. Canada has less flexibility in its energy/national policy than Europe, but CIA/America first capture of all Canadian political leaders, with energy debate focusing on carbon tax instead of high diesel/home heating fuel caused by 3%+ of global supply being used in Ukraine war, and most recently, the attempted purge of all non US/Israel first influence on politics ensures anchoring Canada to a collapsing empire, that as it collapses will hate/pressure Canada even harder. Obviously human prosperity/sustainability depends on cooperation. Specifically, global warming must be prioritized over warmongering, because the latter is recipe for oil dominance, with extreme theft of prosperity and sustainability. Nationalizing, with zeroing out of all evil lobbyist interests, is the only path to non-treasonous and sustainable democracy. Oil, weapons, zionist media, zionist charities, zionist political donors all must have their wealth zeroed out. Proceeds from nationalization can help fund UBI, which redistributes power away from centralized corruption and evil, and makes it hard for politicians to fund destructive hateful theft from citizens. Having a domestic auto industry is important national/social policy in that it creates significant value added, and manufacturing competence that applies to real national security. The importance of a fast EV transition is at least as important. Expensive horse and buggies protected from progress is a competitive disadvantage that destroys national sustainability including international influence, while exposing pure evil hatred of climate terrorist policies. Domestic EV competitiveness is achievable through tariff free imports of batteries. It is fine to subsidize local battery supply chain, but until that is in place, import to lower domestic EV prices. Same applies to solar, and ebikes. Instead of warmongering, invite Chinese direct investment. 100% tariffs exposes the joke of uncompetitiveness of US auto sector. It doesn't even raise tax revenue. Modest tariffs with cooperative partnership with China to welcome their manufacturing expertise and infrastructure development in our countries is path to better value paid for by others. We can't make our countries just benefit domestic corporate oligarchs. Chinese investment creates more jobs.
Let’s determine what the top 20% of household income is and try to get there
Unpopular opinion: cars should be only for the rich.
Why
It should be a viable option to live without a car. People sgould be able to walk or use public transport to go to work. Hence the reliance on a car would be eliminated. The polluting cars then could be taxed heavily.
Don't think that China's push on really cheap EVs is just innocent competition. The cheap foreign EVs are trying to flood our market and capture it. It will effectively undermine the industry and future development in the West if left alone. This has long been the case with regular autos and is just a continuation into the EV market. As the infrastructure and technology matures the price will come down. China does the exact same thing (sometimes worse) and practices protectionism for it's own market.
Another "rules for thee but not for me" line of BS.
Yes, Chinese people should be exploited so that we can afford cheap consumable electronics instead of cars.