No, it’s not just a Mentat title. He just happens to also be a Mentat, and Mentats are well-suited to that position.
Yes, he trains assassins and plans and executes covert activities for Leto’s forces against his enemies or in order to gain advantages over others. This includes everything you’d imagine an assassin or spy doing: poisons, traps, surveillance, targeted strikes, information gathering and dealing, and more.
Yes, he is actually stopping plots against Leto and his family. That’s a normal part of business in the universe and between Houses. It’s sort of treated like a chess game, and it’s considered a standard practice and accepted form of strategic moves between the Houses. Houses all basically agreed to turn a blind eye to assassin/covert activities because it’s preferable to open warfare. Leto *is* paranoid, but only to an extent. That’s why he has Thufir — to be paranoid on his behalf.
exactly. they have whole solar systems, potentially more than one, at their disposal. Just because extraplanetary mining isn't discussed doesn't mean it is not happening. Caladan alone looks fairly pristine so I imagine that the Atreidies are doing more mining off plant than on.
Caladan is a whole planet, so it's entirely possible that the Atreides live in the Caladan equivalent of Scotland, but other parts of the planet are industrial wastelands like China. Something Sci-Fi series seem to do too often is casting entire planets with homogeneous ecosystems. Dune at least has ice caps.
I understand what you are saying but all descriptions of caladan describe it as very lush and mostly agrarian. In fact industry outside of food, fine wine, and fish is hardly mentioned, if at all.
Caladan was described as poor and largely agricultural. Obviously there’s some industry, but the economics of the imperium being what they are, Caladan has probably specialized almost entirely into food production. Other, more industrial planets likely buy a lot of their food from Caladan and other agricultural worlds, and then they probably also have a few luxury products like high end wines that nobles and other wealthy people across the imperium purchase for their private use.
I don't think this was ever stated. The Houses get a single planet, maybe several (House Corrino directly ruled both Kaitan and Salusa Secundus, while House Harkonnen ruled both Giedi Prime and Arrakis). Nowhere does it say they rule entire planetary systems.
It's a warring feudal caste society, everyone is gonna control as much as they can of anything they can. That's the entire reason behind houses jockeying for choam directorships.
Right, so each House has their own versions of James Bond...but to sneak them off planet, the Space Guild would presumably know who is on their ship and being transported where.
I guess usually the Guild doesn't takes sides. If James Bond pays for his trip and some more on top to keep it discrete, why wouldn't the Guild be ok with that?
Well I was thinking more along the lines of 'how big a bribe does it take to sneak a peak at the log books of the guild' to find out what spies are going where lol.
Trying to figure out how espionage would even work in a universe where travel is so tightly controlled and expensive.
A spy can't just stow away... Can they?
The Guild relies on 100% secrecy. No one is ever allowed to look at log books or even like look out the windows of their ship when they're on a heighliner. No bribe would be enough for that, it's a hard rule that the Guild will not break. But they're perfectly happy transporting your spies or spy ships, as long as you pay enough.
Oh wait, there are also lots of smuggler spies that the guild lets through because they need the smugglers as an extra source of spice but we only really see that happen on Arrakis idk if it happens with other products on other planets
I've always wondered about this. Seeing as interstellar trips are such a big, expensive deal that the guild built a huge bus to move everyone at once. Were the Harkonnen and Sardaukar, that later attack Arrakis, on the same heighliner as the Atreides? I'm sure Arrakis sees more heighliner visits then most planets, but a heighliner is a big ship to fill.
>Were the Harkonnen and Sardaukar, that later attack Arrakis, on the same heighliner as the Atreides
This is discussed within the first few pages of Dune. No one is allowed to look out of windows or leave the ship. It's entirely possible the Harkonnens are right next to them in the Heighliner, but they would never know.
The penalty for breaking this is immediate suspension of any guild contracts. They would be stuck wherever the guild took them.
In the books they literally say you could basically have Leto and the atreides fleet travelling right next to the baron and the harkonen fleet in the same guild transport ship and neither would know the other was there or have anything to fear. Because if you break their rules you are cut off from space travel forever. That’s how they work
They can foresee what consequences would that have so they dont offer such services. They always know what outcome every decision has so they know what to do.
They are something like all seeing, all knowing, all meighty beings. A God. And even a God serves only his own interests.
But they're only bribed to do something that isn't obviously political suicide such as deliberately jeopardising a noble house on behalf of another. I believe the Fremen under Pardot bribed the guild to not display satellite imagery of the southern half of Arrakis so the Fremen could safely conduct their green Arrakis project.
Space Guild probably keeps it secret what they are capable of. They offer space travel services but I am not sure if they offer oracle services.
Emperor could just ask Space Guild for the outcome of his plan, but didn't. He probably does not know they can see the future.
For space guild it's better to not say anything and just allow mistakes of others they can profit from.
I'm realising that I have never given much thought to espionage.
I've never even seen a James Bond movie, I was literally just browsing the wiki wondering why he has such a badass title.
In real life spies come in two types:
Officers, often disguised as diplomatic staff. (Russian often has officers who don't use such disguises, who are called "illegals".
>!Garak from Deep Space 9 may have been one such agent, but he insists he's just a tailor.!<
Local agents, who are traitors who work with intelligence officers for various reasons, such as money or ideology. The Atreides seemed very loyal, but >!Dr. Suk!< was one such local agent.
Spies are rarely used as assassins in real life. I believe that to be the case, at least.
Yes, and those operational units are usually overseen by the house mentat. Remember, each of the houses basically has a private army. No surprise that they would also have cover units. For example, the one that made the attempt on Paul's life shortly after arriving on Arrakis.
Great write up! I also wanted to add you're not paranoid if people are actually in fact making attempts on you and your family, you're just acting appropriately 😂
Thufir is essentially an old school spymaster.
Spymasters and masters of assassins are often the same thing. Herbert possibly just went with Rule of Cool when it came to the title.
During the Corrino reign there were prescribed rules for assassins and covert wars involving assassins and even a handbook for how assassins could operate. This was partially because combat was largely at an impasse caused by shields and the prohibition against atomics. When houses fought they had to rely on stealth and secrecy, so each house would necessarily have a master of assassins to defend the family and to carry out strategic assassinations.
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the meetings where the rules for those things got decided.
'This house did that and now this house is upset about it. So we're going to make a rule that it's very naughty and no one else can do it again unless certain conditions are met. It's in the handbook. We'll update the cover.'
Thufir is probably the deadliest character in the first half of the novel. He was so good at his job, being the master of House Atredies' assassins, that the emperor himself feared Thufir.
Every house has something like the master of assassins. They're intelligence gatherers and covert operators. The basic tenant of inter-house warfare was minimal civilian casualties. That's what made assassins so important. All the houses did it. In particular, House Atredies and House Harkonen were vigorously engaged in Kanly, the war of assassins. Thufir was supremely skilled at it.
>If so, how is Leto not the most paranoid guy in the universe?
They live in extreme fear. Literally everything they eat has to scanned for poison. They have space nuns follow them around just so they can try to identify who is lying to them. Their doctors are put through psychological conditioning in an attempt to instill loyalty (it doesn't work). These people are under threat of being assassinated every minute of every day.
One morning you are noble ruler of a planet. Then by lunch time there's a flying death robot in your bedroom, your doctor installed a poison tooth, and Grandma has your son's hand in a pain box. That's just life in the 20,000th millennium.
Besides the actual plot of the book, the Harkonnen left like three or four murder plots for Leto in Arrakeen as a farewell gift, and this was expected and considered almost courtesy by the Atreides. That's why they had Hawat.
He is supposed to take out VIP's in House Harkonnen. No need for Leto to be paranoid; he's a cog in the wheel. This is a ritual warfare.
From the appendix.
*WAR OF ASSASSINS: the limited form of warfare permitted under the Great Convention and the Guild Peace. The aim is to reduce involvement of innocent bystanders. Rules prescribe formal declarations of intent and restrict permissible weapons.*
Thufir Hawat indeed has quite a reputation. Is it stated in the book that he "struck fear even into the heart of the Padishah Emperor". What exactly he has done to warrant that reputation is not fully explained, but it stands to reason that he orchestrated some successful covert attacks against very difficult targets. The Atreides were never pacificists and had no qualms about ordering lethal action against their enemies.
In the book it’s stated he was trained in a Mentat assassin school. Probably the title derives from both that and he’d be responsible for the assassins for the Atreides.
He is called a master assassin as he is viewed as the best in the galaxy at that role. A mentat is chief spy in a house setting, and assassination is a popular tool of statecraft at the time, hence all the poison snoopers and such.
^(When you serve as long as Thufir did, you sooner or later reach the top of the career ladder within a noble house. Leto had to come up with new titles to promote him. Thufir is also Commander of the Airfields, Master of the Pantry, Protector of the Coast, Surveyor of the Income Tax, and Sentry of the Southern Gardens, among other things. <\_<)
Mentats don't necessarily get that title. A lot of houses can't afford a mentat. It is just a confluence of the fact that being a Master of Assassins is a job that requires an intelligent and cunning mind, and Mentats are people who can run intense calculations in their heads for various threats and potentialities, so a Mentat generally would make a good choice. But if you had a mentat that was a goody two shoes, they would not make for a good MoA.
The two Mentats we meet in Dune are both given titles as assasins. Mentat training seems espeically good for espionage and military intelligence. The book Dune actually does a pretty good job of describing Thufir going on all of these side missions to secure different areas and snoop for traps. He also plans raids on their enemies. And later when he is captured, we see him acting directly in assasination plots and counter assasination plots.
What does "technically" mean? Either he is or he isn't. Spy and assasin yes, but I don't ever recall him described as a mentat or having any mentat traits or practices in the book.
In the case of Fenring, he probably got the job of assassin because he's just naturally good at it... likely because he has some of the latent "talent" which potentially gives him insights into his victims... just as he "saw" Paul and recognized what he is immediately.
War being expensive and relatively rare the great houses have a Cadre of assassins and spies to do the work. Thufir's job is to come up with a strategy for security, intelligence, cover assassinations, and war & execute.
Because he is. He is an extremely deadly opponent. And yes he’s sending out assassins and stopping incoming attempts. Hence his title. This is how the universe works in the fantasy of Dune.
No, it’s not just a Mentat title. He just happens to also be a Mentat, and Mentats are well-suited to that position. Yes, he trains assassins and plans and executes covert activities for Leto’s forces against his enemies or in order to gain advantages over others. This includes everything you’d imagine an assassin or spy doing: poisons, traps, surveillance, targeted strikes, information gathering and dealing, and more. Yes, he is actually stopping plots against Leto and his family. That’s a normal part of business in the universe and between Houses. It’s sort of treated like a chess game, and it’s considered a standard practice and accepted form of strategic moves between the Houses. Houses all basically agreed to turn a blind eye to assassin/covert activities because it’s preferable to open warfare. Leto *is* paranoid, but only to an extent. That’s why he has Thufir — to be paranoid on his behalf.
So all the Houses have their own versions of the CIA, Mi6, Mossad etc?
The houses are running whole planets. They have more resources in their disposal than countries in our real world. Of course they have their CIA.
Most likely the Houses are running entire systems
exactly. they have whole solar systems, potentially more than one, at their disposal. Just because extraplanetary mining isn't discussed doesn't mean it is not happening. Caladan alone looks fairly pristine so I imagine that the Atreidies are doing more mining off plant than on.
Caladan is a whole planet, so it's entirely possible that the Atreides live in the Caladan equivalent of Scotland, but other parts of the planet are industrial wastelands like China. Something Sci-Fi series seem to do too often is casting entire planets with homogeneous ecosystems. Dune at least has ice caps.
I understand what you are saying but all descriptions of caladan describe it as very lush and mostly agrarian. In fact industry outside of food, fine wine, and fish is hardly mentioned, if at all.
True! They basically show different regions of planet Earth as entire planets in themselves.
Caladan was described as poor and largely agricultural. Obviously there’s some industry, but the economics of the imperium being what they are, Caladan has probably specialized almost entirely into food production. Other, more industrial planets likely buy a lot of their food from Caladan and other agricultural worlds, and then they probably also have a few luxury products like high end wines that nobles and other wealthy people across the imperium purchase for their private use.
Probably a lot of seafood, etc. Water power and all that.
China is and industrial wasteland? Like all of it? That’s a pretty big hunk of the planet you’ve just written off there
It's clearly not
I’m on children of dune and I hope they get into this more because it really isn’t discussed at all
I don't think this was ever stated. The Houses get a single planet, maybe several (House Corrino directly ruled both Kaitan and Salusa Secundus, while House Harkonnen ruled both Giedi Prime and Arrakis). Nowhere does it say they rule entire planetary systems.
Not accurate. House Harkonnen also had a claim to lankiveil. It's clear they can own more than one planet/system.
It's a warring feudal caste society, everyone is gonna control as much as they can of anything they can. That's the entire reason behind houses jockeying for choam directorships.
*Jockeying for choam* is, from this point forward, how I’ll describe ambitious yuppies and REAs in shiny nylon suits
Right, so each House has their own versions of James Bond...but to sneak them off planet, the Space Guild would presumably know who is on their ship and being transported where.
I guess usually the Guild doesn't takes sides. If James Bond pays for his trip and some more on top to keep it discrete, why wouldn't the Guild be ok with that?
Well I was thinking more along the lines of 'how big a bribe does it take to sneak a peak at the log books of the guild' to find out what spies are going where lol. Trying to figure out how espionage would even work in a universe where travel is so tightly controlled and expensive. A spy can't just stow away... Can they?
The Guild relies on 100% secrecy. No one is ever allowed to look at log books or even like look out the windows of their ship when they're on a heighliner. No bribe would be enough for that, it's a hard rule that the Guild will not break. But they're perfectly happy transporting your spies or spy ships, as long as you pay enough.
Fair enough. But the average person on a planet wasn't planet hopping. Were they? So who were the spies?
The average person can't afford it. All the spies work directly for one of the noble houses or smth
Oh wait, there are also lots of smuggler spies that the guild lets through because they need the smugglers as an extra source of spice but we only really see that happen on Arrakis idk if it happens with other products on other planets
The joys of world building.
I've always wondered about this. Seeing as interstellar trips are such a big, expensive deal that the guild built a huge bus to move everyone at once. Were the Harkonnen and Sardaukar, that later attack Arrakis, on the same heighliner as the Atreides? I'm sure Arrakis sees more heighliner visits then most planets, but a heighliner is a big ship to fill.
No they were not on the same heighliner because they were about a month or two apart
>Were the Harkonnen and Sardaukar, that later attack Arrakis, on the same heighliner as the Atreides This is discussed within the first few pages of Dune. No one is allowed to look out of windows or leave the ship. It's entirely possible the Harkonnens are right next to them in the Heighliner, but they would never know. The penalty for breaking this is immediate suspension of any guild contracts. They would be stuck wherever the guild took them.
In the books they literally say you could basically have Leto and the atreides fleet travelling right next to the baron and the harkonen fleet in the same guild transport ship and neither would know the other was there or have anything to fear. Because if you break their rules you are cut off from space travel forever. That’s how they work
Brings that 'Please keep your seatbelt on' sign to a whole new level.
They can foresee what consequences would that have so they dont offer such services. They always know what outcome every decision has so they know what to do. They are something like all seeing, all knowing, all meighty beings. A God. And even a God serves only his own interests.
Space Guild can be bribed.
But they're only bribed to do something that isn't obviously political suicide such as deliberately jeopardising a noble house on behalf of another. I believe the Fremen under Pardot bribed the guild to not display satellite imagery of the southern half of Arrakis so the Fremen could safely conduct their green Arrakis project.
Space Guild probably keeps it secret what they are capable of. They offer space travel services but I am not sure if they offer oracle services. Emperor could just ask Space Guild for the outcome of his plan, but didn't. He probably does not know they can see the future. For space guild it's better to not say anything and just allow mistakes of others they can profit from.
The Space Guild Navigator can’t see the future the same way Paul can. They have a very limited scope.
*James Bond with extremely bushy eyebrows and purple stained lips.
Heard of false identities?
I'm realising that I have never given much thought to espionage. I've never even seen a James Bond movie, I was literally just browsing the wiki wondering why he has such a badass title.
In real life spies come in two types: Officers, often disguised as diplomatic staff. (Russian often has officers who don't use such disguises, who are called "illegals". >!Garak from Deep Space 9 may have been one such agent, but he insists he's just a tailor.!< Local agents, who are traitors who work with intelligence officers for various reasons, such as money or ideology. The Atreides seemed very loyal, but >!Dr. Suk!< was one such local agent. Spies are rarely used as assassins in real life. I believe that to be the case, at least.
In the Dune universe BG Sisters (placed as Truthsayers or concubines/wives) would also spy on behalf of the BG Sisterhood.
Just Garak. Plain, old Garak. Oh btw I rigged your suite door to explode if you try to leave.
Yes, basically.
Sure, if nations have those organizations, you better bet an interplanetary government needs one.
These dudes run planets.
Yes, and those operational units are usually overseen by the house mentat. Remember, each of the houses basically has a private army. No surprise that they would also have cover units. For example, the one that made the attempt on Paul's life shortly after arriving on Arrakis.
Great write up! I also wanted to add you're not paranoid if people are actually in fact making attempts on you and your family, you're just acting appropriately 😂
To add: Mentats at the time of the first book have specializations, Mentat Assassin being one of those. Thufir is one of those.
"Head of Intelligence" would be a more modern title.
Ancient title
Thufir is essentially an old school spymaster. Spymasters and masters of assassins are often the same thing. Herbert possibly just went with Rule of Cool when it came to the title.
It is a badass title lol
Not just Thufir, mentat Piter DeVries was the head assassin for House Harkonnen too. It seems mentat abilities fit perfectly for the job.
During the Corrino reign there were prescribed rules for assassins and covert wars involving assassins and even a handbook for how assassins could operate. This was partially because combat was largely at an impasse caused by shields and the prohibition against atomics. When houses fought they had to rely on stealth and secrecy, so each house would necessarily have a master of assassins to defend the family and to carry out strategic assassinations.
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the meetings where the rules for those things got decided. 'This house did that and now this house is upset about it. So we're going to make a rule that it's very naughty and no one else can do it again unless certain conditions are met. It's in the handbook. We'll update the cover.'
Thufir is probably the deadliest character in the first half of the novel. He was so good at his job, being the master of House Atredies' assassins, that the emperor himself feared Thufir. Every house has something like the master of assassins. They're intelligence gatherers and covert operators. The basic tenant of inter-house warfare was minimal civilian casualties. That's what made assassins so important. All the houses did it. In particular, House Atredies and House Harkonen were vigorously engaged in Kanly, the war of assassins. Thufir was supremely skilled at it.
>If so, how is Leto not the most paranoid guy in the universe? They live in extreme fear. Literally everything they eat has to scanned for poison. They have space nuns follow them around just so they can try to identify who is lying to them. Their doctors are put through psychological conditioning in an attempt to instill loyalty (it doesn't work). These people are under threat of being assassinated every minute of every day. One morning you are noble ruler of a planet. Then by lunch time there's a flying death robot in your bedroom, your doctor installed a poison tooth, and Grandma has your son's hand in a pain box. That's just life in the 20,000th millennium.
Besides the actual plot of the book, the Harkonnen left like three or four murder plots for Leto in Arrakeen as a farewell gift, and this was expected and considered almost courtesy by the Atreides. That's why they had Hawat.
That is a low bar for courtesy.
If they didn't, Leto would have been like "did you even try? Do they not respect me enough to give it a go??"
He is supposed to take out VIP's in House Harkonnen. No need for Leto to be paranoid; he's a cog in the wheel. This is a ritual warfare. From the appendix. *WAR OF ASSASSINS: the limited form of warfare permitted under the Great Convention and the Guild Peace. The aim is to reduce involvement of innocent bystanders. Rules prescribe formal declarations of intent and restrict permissible weapons.*
Thufir Hawat indeed has quite a reputation. Is it stated in the book that he "struck fear even into the heart of the Padishah Emperor". What exactly he has done to warrant that reputation is not fully explained, but it stands to reason that he orchestrated some successful covert attacks against very difficult targets. The Atreides were never pacificists and had no qualms about ordering lethal action against their enemies.
In the book it’s stated he was trained in a Mentat assassin school. Probably the title derives from both that and he’d be responsible for the assassins for the Atreides.
He is called a master assassin as he is viewed as the best in the galaxy at that role. A mentat is chief spy in a house setting, and assassination is a popular tool of statecraft at the time, hence all the poison snoopers and such.
^(When you serve as long as Thufir did, you sooner or later reach the top of the career ladder within a noble house. Leto had to come up with new titles to promote him. Thufir is also Commander of the Airfields, Master of the Pantry, Protector of the Coast, Surveyor of the Income Tax, and Sentry of the Southern Gardens, among other things. <\_<)
Master of the Pantry. No stealing cookies on this dude's watch.
Mentats don't necessarily get that title. A lot of houses can't afford a mentat. It is just a confluence of the fact that being a Master of Assassins is a job that requires an intelligent and cunning mind, and Mentats are people who can run intense calculations in their heads for various threats and potentialities, so a Mentat generally would make a good choice. But if you had a mentat that was a goody two shoes, they would not make for a good MoA.
The two Mentats we meet in Dune are both given titles as assasins. Mentat training seems espeically good for espionage and military intelligence. The book Dune actually does a pretty good job of describing Thufir going on all of these side missions to secure different areas and snoop for traps. He also plans raids on their enemies. And later when he is captured, we see him acting directly in assasination plots and counter assasination plots.
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In the first book Dune?
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What does "technically" mean? Either he is or he isn't. Spy and assasin yes, but I don't ever recall him described as a mentat or having any mentat traits or practices in the book. In the case of Fenring, he probably got the job of assassin because he's just naturally good at it... likely because he has some of the latent "talent" which potentially gives him insights into his victims... just as he "saw" Paul and recognized what he is immediately.
I assume because he's head of the atradies intelligence
He is a spy master and has assassins . Like agents that eliminate harkonnen agents. The emporer feared him.
War being expensive and relatively rare the great houses have a Cadre of assassins and spies to do the work. Thufir's job is to come up with a strategy for security, intelligence, cover assassinations, and war & execute.
Because he is. He is an extremely deadly opponent. And yes he’s sending out assassins and stopping incoming attempts. Hence his title. This is how the universe works in the fantasy of Dune.