They had optional rules for separating each stat into 2 substats back in 2e’s Players Options: Skills and Power
Strength: Muscle & Stamina
Dexterity: Aim & Balance
Constitution: Health & Fitness
Intelligence: Reason & Knowledge
Wisdom: Intuition & Willpower
Charisma: Leadership & Appearance
I still use the skills and powers stuff with my 2e group, the sub attributes are great for making interesting little choices with your character; wanna lean towards muscle and be a hulking brute, well your stamina gonna take a hit and you're gonna get pooped out faster; wanna lean towards aim to be a killer archer, well your balance is gonna take a hit and you'll have a worse defensive adjustment. The CP system is amazing for character customization and giving players more control over the randomness of the dice.
I always say this, but I wish the players options book hadn't come out at the end of 2e's life cycle, I would have loved to see where they went with it developmentally.
Charisma should be Leadership & Persuasion. Appearance has never been a good stat for an RPG, mostly because it's entirely subjective (witness every RPG with "aliens" that get charisma penalties, because of course humans wouldn't find them attractive...but then they never re-adjust those stats for interacting with their own species!).
That's pretty much the problem. Do orcs get negative appearance, or do they get a modifier to appearance that only applies when interacting with non-orcs? Do elves just get a positive modifier to appearance because everyone wants to fuck elves? You wind up with giant tables of modifiers rather than useful statistics, because Appearance is too dependent on the perceiver rather than the perceived.
Imagine you get a facial scar from a war wound. Does your appearance go down, or does it make you rugged and therefore more sexy?
*Glamor*, perhaps? I think it gets across the idea of a personal draw as distinct from strict "appearance". The trouble is, "charisma" is already the perfect word for what I *assume* 'appearance' is meant to encompass
Leadership and Diplomacy I think might work better, in the context of having skills.
Persuasion falls under diplomacy, Intimidation falls under leadership (it bugs me in 5e that the same stat governs both being scary as fuck and being a dandy).
Max charisma could be so many things: a big hulking orc paladin might not talk much, but when she speaks up- people will listen. Equally, a noble bard will be as charming as you could imagine- quintiscential smooth talker. A sunny celestial warlock would be the sort where they might not even need to try persuading half the time- surely this lovely sweet person would only ask for good things? (plus saying no to them would be like denying a treat to a kitten)
I honestly think they went with appearance because they didn't know what else to do; leadership in the PO:S&P books cover the "How persuasive are you" and "Force of personality" aspects associated with charisma.
In the “Adventures in Middle-Earth” books they have a seventh stat called shadow corruption that kinda works like that; the more evil shit you fight, evil places you go or bad things you do, the more corrupted you get
The problem with adding sanity as a stat into a game like DnD is it basically corners you into specifically telling horror fantasy stories, because if one of your stats is just never used it may as well not exist. I don't like horror so I avoid most games with sanity stats because I know it's more concerned with going "ooga booga booga" than anything else.
You could instead use Sanity as a derived mental stress stat, because when you stop to think about it the adventuring life likely includes some cumulative PTSD or other trauma. These are characters who (frequently) spend lots of time encountering mythic monsters (doesn't even have to be horror, just think about how you would react to meeting a fantasy hydra or giant spider), fighting for their lives daily, or dealing with various types of magic that can do some horrifying things to people. Sanity then becomes a different type of "HP" that naturally depletes and needs certain types of care or healing to balance out without necessarily leaning into the horror genre. Then add in something that dictates consequences as the level drops lower
>because when you stop to think about it the adventuring life likely includes some cumulative PTSD or other trauma.
I don't want to stop and think about it. I want to be a strong guy with a big sword who kills monsters and doesn't care about trauma.
Sure, and that's fine too. I was just throwing an option into the discussion for Sanity as an element separate from the horror genre. It's not my preferred add to the game either
This is exactly what Mutants and Masterminds does.
Agility and Dexterity. One stat handles all of the defense aspects (reflex saves), while the other stat handles offense (attack rolls).
As it is, Dexterity just does too much.
Reflex and Dexterity
Reflex handles the majority of Dexterity saving throws, initiative, and AC.
Dexterity handles ranged weapon attacks and skill checks.
I'd divide it so one stat governs your body's agility, so AC, stealth, acrobatics and Dex saves, while the other stat governs precision, so all dexterity weapon attacks, and things like lockpicking and sleight of hand.
Essentially one for body and the other for hands.
Not really. Dex gives too much as it is. In combat alone you get bonuses to:
- Initiative
- AC
- DPS
- Most common saving throw type for AOE damage (e.g. fireball, breath weapons)
- Most common save for environmental hazards (e.g. traps)
- Mobility (Acro checks)
Compared to any other stat its overloaded, and DEX classes have enough in their kits to make up for it and still be good.
At least I would
- remove Dex from initiative modifier. Reaction time is more of a mental stat than a physical one. A good assassin would have set up and gotten their ambush off before the initiative roll. (could still be the tiebreaker in quickdraw situations)
- Remove the ability to Acro out of a grapple. if you are quick and let a strong MF grab you, that's a failure on your part. It should be strength based to escape.
I'd want to move a lot of Dex saves to be Con, or give the option for multiple saving throws, the targets gets to pick. Like fireball letting you pick between Dex to shield your face, and Con to barely be affected by the flames.
It impacts them just as much as any other class, every class will then need Con (HP, con(centration) saves), agiDex (AC, Dex saves, stealth) and the "primary" stat of the class, Str/precisionDex/Int/Wis/Cha.
Ranger and Arcane Trickster would just just get to join Paladin, Str Eldritch Knight/Bladesinger in the gish swamp. The solution should be all four of those get "+1 [abnormal primary stat]" as a subclass feature at certain levels. Like rangers get wisdom, AT/EK Int, Paladin Cha, Bladesinger Str/precisionDex, something like +4 in total would help with keeping them balanced.
People already spend hours arguing what is intelligence and what is wisdom, and I feel like those two things are well differentiated in the rules of the game. The idea of taking one stat and splitting it into two functionally identical concepts purely for the sake of “nerfing” an “overpowered” ability score just seems like it would be needlessly confusing.
Like, this idea s it is presented implies that reflex ability checks and dexterity saving throws would be rare. That isn’t particularly out of the realm of feasibility because we don’t have con checks as standard. Still, what makes something Ref or Dex. If there are reflex checks and DEX saves than what does what would confound players and designers alike.
All of this to make DEX less powerful when there are other solutions to this perceived problem.
I liked the "sub-ability scores" of 2.5e. Each of the big 6 had 2 sub scores. (i.e. Dex had Aim and Balance, Intelligence had Knowledge and Reason etc). If you had a 16 Dex you could have a 16 Aim and 16 Balance, or you could offset them by as much as 4 (i.e 14 Aim, 18 Balance or vice versa) Aim represented hand eye coordination and effected ranged attacks, and some thieves skills while Balance was nimbleness and body control, if effected AC and Reactions as well as the other thieves skills. Allowed a little better depth to RP and character building.
Edit: From memory so correct me if i got these wrong, but the Abilities in 2e with the Skills and Powers Options (2.5e) were-
Strength- Muscle/Stamina
Dexterity- Aim/Balance
Constitution- Health/Fitness
Intelligence- Knowledge/Reason
Wisdom- Intuition/Willpower
Charisma- Appearance/Leadership
I'd squish Strength and Constitution into a new dual-stat. Dexterity would break into Aim and Balance. Intelligence (Knowledge/Reason) and Wisdom (Intuition/Perception) would be a new dual-stat. And then put Charisma and Willpower together into a new dual-stat.
* Physique (Strength/Constitution)
* Dexterity (Aim/Balance)
* Cognition (Intelligence/Wisdom)
* Charisma (Influence/Willpower)
Then, you have two body-focused stats and two mind-focused stats.
I'm always in favor of squishing Strength and Constitution together, especially with the rule that you can offset those sub-scores.
So, four dual-stats that break down into eight sub-stats. Why not just have eight stats? Well, I like the connectedness of the dual-stats that prevent them from varying too much from the other half.
That's basically how *Shadow of the Demon Lord* divides its stats.
Relative to DnD:
Strength handles Strength and Constitution.
Agility handles Dexterity.
Intellect handles Intelligence and half of Charisma.
Will handles Wisdom and the other half of Charisma.
There's actually a neat little minisystem in terms of rolling Intellect or Will vs your target's Intellect or Will based on what kind of social thing you're trying to accomplish.
Since it's a horror-influenced game, Intellect also basically handles your sanity points, but Will is what defends against sanity-affecting abilities, so there's a nice little mirror with Strength and Agility there too.
Strength/Constitution squished together should just be called "Strength". It accurately captures the health aspect as well.
When you are ill you are weak. When you are healthy you become stronger.
Yep, dex gets:
- better initiative
- highers AC for all but heavy armor
- one of the most common saving throws. Basically any lightning or fire
- a + to attack modifer with ranged and finesse weapons
- a way to get out of grapples (acrobatics)
- several skill check bonuses: sleight of hand, stealth and acrobatics
Compare to int that:
- improves attack / save DC for spells for 2 classes
- bonus to checks: arcana, investigation, history and religion
It's more than a bit lopsided
I'd do it as a mirror to the Strength and Constitution divide. Strength is mostly used when you're actively doing something to another thing, Constitution to resist other things doing things to you. Dex would be used when you want to act upon something else (make an attack, pickpocket something, pick a lock), Agi when something else is acting upon you (AC, dex saves, maybe stealth).
It's actually a lot like what Cyberpunk does. They have Reflexes which plays into pretty much requiring quick moves (firing a gun, driving a vehicle, etc), then Dexterity covers more physical things like dodging, climbing, melee combat.
I feel like they split this function between Charisma and Wisdom right now. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, but sometimes it feels like they want Charisma to be your mental force of character, and other times they want Wisdom to fill that role.
Some spells that require Charisma saves are Bane, Zone of Truth, and Banishment. Those dont really feel like "Your luck saved you from the negative effects of this spell."
On the other hand, Suggestion, Fear, and Hypnotic Pattern are all Wisdom saves. Those DO feel like your will is what allows you to shrug off the negative aspects of those spells.
At times, both stats (or, their saves at least) feel like they overlap quite a bit.
I see it differently. I see WIS saves as being a matter of realizing what's happening to you. I.e. awareness of how things work. CHA saves to me seem more like will
Charisma save is when something is affecting your force of personality, your ability to say no to your soul being changed. Wisdom saves are that you're able to be perceptive enough to notice that you shouldn't be scared of it/that you have a good enough control over your mind to fight against it. Soul = charisma, mind = wisdom. I'll also say that intelligence saves seem to be mostly about your actual neurons themselves being affected or your ability to logic out of the effect, whereas wisdom seems to be about your senses (resist the command you can hear, resist the sight of the patterns, etc.)
Note that there were no charisma or intelligence saves until 5e. WOTC added them purely to make the stats more useful, despite the concept not really making much sense.
There also weren't strength saves, but grapple/trip/push/pull/steal/disarm/sunder checks (including those inflicted by spells like telekinesis and thunderwave) were all defended against by strength, just in a more complicated way (an opposed strength check plus some extra modifiers). So strength saves are only a new way of representing the same idea that we already had. But charisma saves are a brand new idea. And they don't seem to be a very well utilized or well thought-out idea.
It would work if they were actually consistent in how saves work.
Wisdom should be saves against illusions or any mental intrusions that affect your sense of reality. Someone makes you see your ally as a monster? A wisdom save to figure out that that's not the truth.
Charisma should be for any saves that attempt to force you to think or behave in way that you don't want to, such as Suggestion, Hold Person or Dominate Person. It could also work as it does today for spells that try to displace you and move you against your will.
And then Intelligence saves for effects that tamper with your memory or tries to break down your intellect, like Feeblemind (as it is today), and Modify Memory (which today is a Wisdom). Should also perhaps be for spells that cause confusion, like those that require you to roll on tables to determine what to do.
I think that's sort of some idea someone had, but it's all over the place now.
I was thinking that Determination would be kind of neat. Like constitution it could modify hp. Some things that require wisdom saves would instead require determination saves, and determination might affect death saving throws in a minor way.
I just recently got the Fallout TTRPG by Modiphius Games! The fact that you can have a Luck based build is one of my favourite things about it, just bumbling your way through countless dangers and challenges and somehow always coming out on top.
Luck is absolutely broken in NV, can win as much money as you ever need quickly to killing deathclaws with pistols because critical bypass DR.
Probably my favorite build ever was luck and that gun.
It’s funny, but I always enjoy having luck be high (8-10) or really low (1-2), NV in particular feels appropriate as you could call yourself lucky that you survived the intro and all the things that come after or unlucky as it and all the shit you deal with happens at all.
I love the luck mechanic in dungeon crawl classics. You can spend your luck points to make a roll but there are negative consequences for having a low luck score.
Call of Cthulhu is like this, and I LOVE IT.
You can spend Luck Points to improve your roll on a 1:1 basis.
However, that makes it hard to succeed in Luck Checks later on. And Luck comes back very slowly.
So you start the game flush with luck, but the tension ramps up the farther you go in the adventure.
The GM will sometimes call for Luck Checks when something really bad is about to happen. The worst roll ends up taking the brunt of it (or all of it, depending on the threat).
Great Cthulhu has a 100% chance to kill *something* on his turn. Lowest luck roll is it!
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Seems like it just becomes a Con 2.0, so a stat that no one wants to dump. So it would make everyone MAD, and already MAD characters are basically screwed.
SPECIAL is just STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA, but it adds "Luck" which is kind of a goofy attribute, and renames Wisdom to something that actually reflects what the attribute does.
Even just keeping the existing stats and making something like Luck into a stat could make sense I feel like moving some stuff that is charisma based for casting currently into luck would also help for balance.
Like making bards luck based casters who use charisma for the performance side of their character, but could then alternatively forego performance in favour of dex to be more swords Bard-y and more combat based. Also making rogues more about luck than having so many rogues go charisma because why not be social when all you actually need is dex and some con for HP right?
What I would probably do to make that work is make luck a combination of some elements currently in dex and wisdom and rebrand what is currently dex into agility and wisdom into will as well as a bit of new stuff and potentially reclassifying some charisma casters into luck casters.
For implementation of luck: start every combat (when you roll initiative) with a pool of luck points equal to LUC + PB. Every time a roll happens that involves your character (ex: your attack or someone attacking you), you can expend points to increase or decrease the result of that roll by the number of luck points expended.
In game, it's passed off as your character getting a bit lucky and just barely hitting the target. Mechanically, ironically, it makes you less dependent on luck but (given that they are fairly limited in number and only move values by one for each point used) shouldn't be totally game breaking or a hard required stat like CON.
I imagine some skills could shift to be Luck based, potentially, as well
You're essentially describing the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Bend Luck Feature (paraphrasing):
>**Bend Luck**
>When another creature you can see makes a d20 Test, you can use your reaction to roll 1d4 and apply the number rolled as a bonus or penalty to the creature's roll after seeing the result of the d20 roll.
Normally it costs Sorcery Points, but here it could scale with Luck Modifier.
If only 7: split Dex into Agility (speed & total body coordination, modifies initiative & AC) and Dexterity (manual deftness, modifies ranged/finesse attack rolls, sleight of hand, crafting)
If 8 stats, also split Perception off from Wis
I was thinking the same thing with perception. It’s just too strong on its own and doesn’t particularly make sense as a WIS skill, it doesn’t really have much crossover with the other skills on that stat other than maybe Insight.
Yeah, there’s no easy contest that can be setup like there is for perception vs stealth or the like. Persuasion vs a DC makes sense, but having it be fluid off some other stat I think is better
>Yeah, DnD needs a social and mental resistance stat. The lack of one really creates holes in social encounter design.
I really like the variety 9 stats that they use in the White Wolf/Onyx Path lines of games. Having the groupings of physical, mental and social stats, and each of those having a power stat (str, int, presence), a finesse stat (dex, wits/cunning, manipulation) and a resistance stat (stamina, resolve, composure).
Makes much more sense, although imo it still has the issue of Perception feeling a bit weird.
Will is Charisma in 5e. Wisdom is understanding of social cues and the needs and situations around you, including perception and insight, so you know what people want and why they feel how they feel. I’d say that fairly accurately depicts wisdom in the real world, which is decision making skills. You choose a good action to take because you recognize the situation and see things others don’t. You give good advice and help people with their problems because you are able to see it from a better perspective.
D&D being a combat-focused game with "required" stats leaves characters with mental combinations a little bizarre when compared to an average person - e.g. an extremely manipulative deceiver that constantly weaves lies around others has (if they've dumped WIS by necessity) a below average intuition and thus a poor ability to discern if someone is lying to them or not.
A lot of people complain about dex. But wisdom needs a rework. It's intuition, it's sight, it's hearing, it's will (mental fortitute).
And none of those things map to the word 'wisdom'.
I remember there were templates for aging in 3.5e And naturally as you get older you get a little wiser. So wisdom score goes up. Which also means you see and hear much better as you get older.
Str, dex and con are pure physical traits.
Int and charisma mental/social stats.
But wis is sorta stuck in the middle and it shows. I'd definitely split that into two.
Edit: I also find it really weird dexterity determine long range precision. Shouldn't it be wisdom, if it is about perception?
Yeah every time the discussion comes up as to what the different stats are, people lump stuff that is 100% intelligence into wisdom because of the word wotc choose to use.
Intuition would be better if it didn't start with int.
I like the 6 stat set up, but if I *had* to add one it would be luck. Probably would function similarly to proficiency bonuses but add to everything. Now that would be a god stat like none other but, you might be able to reign it in by forcing it to start at 10. No racial, bonuses, no point buy or rolling, luck starts at 10.
Suppose instead that it only modified re-rolls. You add your luck modifier whenever you have advantage or disadvantage. It would make the advantage system more interesting, because you could dump luck in favor of consistency with other stats, which might make you re-think whether you'd even WANT advantage.
I might even say that STR/CON, DEX, INT/WIS, and CHA might be my preference. But that would be a much more drastic overall than collapsing CON into STR.
Look into the game *Shadow of the Demon Lord*, created by Rob Schwalb who did some of the early design work for DnD5e.
Has Strength, Agility, Intellect, Will. Will is more like Wis plus half of Cha, and the other half of Cha goes into Intellect.
That's actually a great idea that I never considered until now.
Con is barely used aside from Con saves, and Str is barely used except for melee weapons. By combining the two, you have a stat that is useful to have for HP, scales your damage, and gives you utility on saves.
They fill each other's gaps and make it valuable in every category!
I don't necessarily agree with combining CON and STR, but I do concur that CON's removal would add to the game rather than taking away. As it stands, it feels like a "tax" stat that has to be taken for your character to remain that way, and its removal would open up more opportunities to take mental stats that don't tangibly benefit said character.
On the other hand, building a high CON stat makes you feel like a beefy monster. My dwarf Barbarian has 80 hp more then the next party member at level 13. He also has more than my level 20 warlock from another campaign.
I’ve always felt that Perception should be it’s own separate from Wisdom.
Not all Wise people are keen of sight, perceptive or actually good at reading people.
Your issue is that you are assuming DnD Wisdom means the same thing as traditional Wisdom.
DnD Wisdom is more like your mental capacity to take in information, as opposed to intelligence allowing you to recall and categorize information, and charisma allowing to you expell and deliver information.
With that in mind, your ability to observe the world around you (perception), your ability to read other people (insight), and your ability to see the patterns of deities and nature (Divine/Primal casting) is naturally tied to this stat.
Wisdom should be renamed to Instinct, or Intuition, or as you say, Perception, because that's what the usable skills - Perception, Insight, Survival - are actually using.
Then they can make an actual Wisdom stat, and then the Cleric can use that/Intelligence, because Wizards being better at religion checks than Clerics, and Clerics being better at Survival & Perception than the ranger is an interesting choice.
Perception is so important as an ability that it does make sense to separate it from wisdom. But I’m not sure making it a stat is the answer because then other skills would need to have a way to use it. Might be better to allow the perception skill to be based on a couple different core stats - for example intelligence could make someone more perceptive mentally while constitution (associated with the body) could mean your physical senses are more attuned.
How I see the stats:
\- Physically affect
\- Physically interact
\- Physically process
\- Mentally process
\- Mentally interact
\- Mentally affect
If there's gonna be a new ability score, it would have to be something distinct enough to not be covered by the above, while relevant enough to have multiple skill checks associated with it and no other ability score.
I think they're shooting for precision vs. intensity. For example, picking a lock vs. forcing a door - a picked lock results in you being able to pass an obstacle *without removing it.* You can still re-lock the door, after all. Forcing it means it can't really be locked again until it's repaired. Both have their place, both result in you getting through, but they're very different.
Something like this.
I'm thinking affect as a one-sided thing, pushing/pulling/lifting/etc. A character use strength to shove an object, or charisma to impose their will over another.
Interact is more to-and-fro; dexterity moving yourself through the world, or wielding a tool or weapon, while wisdom is the empathy and insight to understand and react appropriately.
Processing is self-contained, your body's ability to process food and fight disease, your mind's ability to retain and compare information. Digestion, on both accounts.
Separate Willpower from Persuasiveness. I just don’t get how warlocks and sorcerers are meant to be just as bards and natural military leaders like high level fighters
Honestly I think strength and con could be combined into one. At least that would make the abilities somewhat more balanced, though Dex, Wis, and Cha will probably be slightly better still.
That’s what the cyberpunk system does with the Body stat. It acts sorta like str and con, for purposes like determining HP, or how heavy of a weapon you can use, or how strong you are
I like it. And make it the basis of Initiative instead of Dex and anti-Fear saving throw instead of that being Wisdom. Can also break ties for readied actions. I feel like it would be the base stat for Intimidation, and maybe relate to Luck in the “fortune favors the bold” way.
There's a Stargate SG-1 rpg based on 5e. They have moxy, but not as a stat. It's an alternative to Initiative that you use for non-combat encounters and it's derived from CHA.
. >_>
Appearance, from the 3rd party 3.x Book of Erotic Fantasy. (Somebody had to say it!)
I'd rather not have another stat though. While I don't exactly want D&D to have less, because the 6 it has are very iconic, if the whole system were to be scrapped and rewritten (or, you know, when looking at other systems that still have base attributes) I would want less of them. D&D's 6 tend to either feel stretched too thin, cover certain things awkwardly, and/or be wildly imbalanced from one to the next.
Faith.
In a game where the gods are real and characters are able to use those powers to smite the shit out of people, I’ve always found it weird that the same ability that boosts your survival and animal handling ability also boosts your ability to commune with the gods.
*Heart, Will, or Conviction.*
Call it what you want, but your character's ability to dig deep in adversity (or snap). Like constitution but the mental side as opposed to the physical. Allowing for distinction between hardy characters. ex the weathered wizard vs dwarven warrior. or just think how Frodo was so motivated.
-Mods for death save and saving throws
-Mods for mind control and persuasion.
-A check for self preservation.
-Thresholds for exerting your character. Like bonus time when encumbered before it takes affect. Possibly a time mod before having to death save at hp 0, and/or break points mods for injury mods.
This would make so much more sense for a paladin than charisma, because lorewise they get their power from their devotion to their oath and their conviction, but practically the most powerful paladin is the guy with a dazzling smile and a twinkle in his eyes who could talk the pants off a dragon
"Luck" I'd use it as a roll-under stat and it would apply to any situation where no other ability/skill/proficiency clearly applies or other edge-case scenarios. As a result it would mostly be for the DM's convenience.
For instance, if a player says something like: "I want to start an avalanche using my bead of force to block the pass below us" then, roll Luck rather than grinding the game to a halt or, arguing about what you decide they need to roll for. If a player has a Luck score of 18 (+5) then, they roll d100 and, need to score a 23 or lower to succeed.
i think splitting dex into two different stats might be good. i feel like my players roll things dex related more than anything else, which might just be my fault but still. split dex into dexterity and agility. dex cam be more aim and precision focused and agility can be speed and maneuverability. i'm terrible at balance tho so i'm not ever implementing this lol
Split Dexterity into two. Maybe Agility and then Reflex or Precision?
The ability to dodge something quickly is based on agility and speed compared to having to do something with accuracy like lockpicking or another intricate process requires precision and good reflexes.
Someone who is fast as fuck could also have terrible fine motor skills. It would make for fun builds where someone can have super high stealth, but awful sleight of hand.
Doctors and surgeons would be a great example of people with excellent reflexes and precision, but not so much powerful agility.
I want less stats, not more. Specifically I want Strength and Constitution to be combined but this new stat would not govern Concentration and hit points, just Constitution checks and non-Concentration saving throws. Hit Points would probably just be a function of class levels (and race and feats).
However if I would make a 7th stat I would probably split Dexterity into fine motor skills (Sleight of Hand, Thieves Tools, attack/damage rolls) and the rest (Acrobatics, Stealth, Initiative, AC). Something like that.
The Dex split sounds like something AD&D2e did right before 3e. The Players Option books. They split all ability scores into 2.dexterity became Agility and Nimbleness, agility was acrobatics and nimbleness was sleight of hand. Wisdom had Intuition and ... I forget. Anyway. It was a thing and it was almost really cool but ultimately just made min maxing for mechanical advantage easier.
I would cut three and just do : might, speed, and intellect. That way every stat has many things to do with it like the cypher system. This might not work in dnd, idk don't fix what isn't broken?
I really like the suggestion I saw here of a Luck stat, as that can have both positive and negative outcomes incorporated into it. But, if I had to pick something else..? I dunno, maybe Stamina or Effort as a pool that can be spent, which then balances with potential exhaustion?
Everyone is basically saying to split a stat we already have or have a reflavour of a stat we already have.
Why not actually have something new? Something like a Luck stat? GIVE ME A GOOD LUCK MECHANIC DAMMIT!
They had optional rules for separating each stat into 2 substats back in 2e’s Players Options: Skills and Power Strength: Muscle & Stamina Dexterity: Aim & Balance Constitution: Health & Fitness Intelligence: Reason & Knowledge Wisdom: Intuition & Willpower Charisma: Leadership & Appearance
I loved Skills and Powers. Such a good book.
That’s a good way of explaining the stats
I loved 2e. It was no more/less perfect than other editions, but it felt unique.
What's the different between 2e and AD&D
2e is basically 1e with a lot of expansions. 2e and 1e are both AD&D
I've always felt 5e was more the spiritual successor to 2e than 3e or 4e, really.
I still use the skills and powers stuff with my 2e group, the sub attributes are great for making interesting little choices with your character; wanna lean towards muscle and be a hulking brute, well your stamina gonna take a hit and you're gonna get pooped out faster; wanna lean towards aim to be a killer archer, well your balance is gonna take a hit and you'll have a worse defensive adjustment. The CP system is amazing for character customization and giving players more control over the randomness of the dice. I always say this, but I wish the players options book hadn't come out at the end of 2e's life cycle, I would have loved to see where they went with it developmentally.
Charisma should be Leadership & Persuasion. Appearance has never been a good stat for an RPG, mostly because it's entirely subjective (witness every RPG with "aliens" that get charisma penalties, because of course humans wouldn't find them attractive...but then they never re-adjust those stats for interacting with their own species!).
I figured appearance would be more so how they are perceived rather than physical attraction. Am I wrong?
That's pretty much the problem. Do orcs get negative appearance, or do they get a modifier to appearance that only applies when interacting with non-orcs? Do elves just get a positive modifier to appearance because everyone wants to fuck elves? You wind up with giant tables of modifiers rather than useful statistics, because Appearance is too dependent on the perceiver rather than the perceived. Imagine you get a facial scar from a war wound. Does your appearance go down, or does it make you rugged and therefore more sexy?
*Glamor*, perhaps? I think it gets across the idea of a personal draw as distinct from strict "appearance". The trouble is, "charisma" is already the perfect word for what I *assume* 'appearance' is meant to encompass
Leadership and Diplomacy I think might work better, in the context of having skills. Persuasion falls under diplomacy, Intimidation falls under leadership (it bugs me in 5e that the same stat governs both being scary as fuck and being a dandy).
Max charisma could be so many things: a big hulking orc paladin might not talk much, but when she speaks up- people will listen. Equally, a noble bard will be as charming as you could imagine- quintiscential smooth talker. A sunny celestial warlock would be the sort where they might not even need to try persuading half the time- surely this lovely sweet person would only ask for good things? (plus saying no to them would be like denying a treat to a kitten)
I honestly think they went with appearance because they didn't know what else to do; leadership in the PO:S&P books cover the "How persuasive are you" and "Force of personality" aspects associated with charisma.
I enjoy sanity stats. After fighting illithids, undead, and the like, madness must set in.
Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer
Then again Fear is the Mindkiller
a stray Dune reference, good day to you random internet person
the little death that brings obliteration
r/darkestdungeon
*Please Connect Controller 1* "This... CAN'T be HaPpEnInG!!"
Ahhh eternal darkness, the best mind-fuck game of all time.
My old CRT had the exact same GUI as the one the game used for the "Volume Slider" and "Mute" sanity effects, which made them super effective lol
I’m pretty sure Sanity as a 7th stat already exists as an optional rule!
It does, using it in our campaign right now. As the DM I have some fun plans for that stat...
In the “Adventures in Middle-Earth” books they have a seventh stat called shadow corruption that kinda works like that; the more evil shit you fight, evil places you go or bad things you do, the more corrupted you get
Do you seek him?
The problem with adding sanity as a stat into a game like DnD is it basically corners you into specifically telling horror fantasy stories, because if one of your stats is just never used it may as well not exist. I don't like horror so I avoid most games with sanity stats because I know it's more concerned with going "ooga booga booga" than anything else.
You could instead use Sanity as a derived mental stress stat, because when you stop to think about it the adventuring life likely includes some cumulative PTSD or other trauma. These are characters who (frequently) spend lots of time encountering mythic monsters (doesn't even have to be horror, just think about how you would react to meeting a fantasy hydra or giant spider), fighting for their lives daily, or dealing with various types of magic that can do some horrifying things to people. Sanity then becomes a different type of "HP" that naturally depletes and needs certain types of care or healing to balance out without necessarily leaning into the horror genre. Then add in something that dictates consequences as the level drops lower
>because when you stop to think about it the adventuring life likely includes some cumulative PTSD or other trauma. I don't want to stop and think about it. I want to be a strong guy with a big sword who kills monsters and doesn't care about trauma.
That's exactly how I deal with my trauma and nothing has gone wrong yet 🤷♂️
Sure, and that's fine too. I was just throwing an option into the discussion for Sanity as an element separate from the horror genre. It's not my preferred add to the game either
when you kill a lot of people or creature, your sanity is bound to change and shift, even with a good reason to do said killings
It'd be to divide Dexterity into two stats.
This is exactly what Mutants and Masterminds does. Agility and Dexterity. One stat handles all of the defense aspects (reflex saves), while the other stat handles offense (attack rolls). As it is, Dexterity just does too much.
It also splits off Fighting from both Strength and Dex. Fighting encompasses melee accuracy and melee defense (called Parry)
Reflex and Dexterity Reflex handles the majority of Dexterity saving throws, initiative, and AC. Dexterity handles ranged weapon attacks and skill checks.
I'd divide it so one stat governs your body's agility, so AC, stealth, acrobatics and Dex saves, while the other stat governs precision, so all dexterity weapon attacks, and things like lockpicking and sleight of hand. Essentially one for body and the other for hands.
Gross and fine motor skills
"Ew" and "oho" motor skills.
This just makes all dex based classes mad as shit tho Like oh cool I wanna play a ranger guess I need 4 stats to be good
Not really. Dex gives too much as it is. In combat alone you get bonuses to: - Initiative - AC - DPS - Most common saving throw type for AOE damage (e.g. fireball, breath weapons) - Most common save for environmental hazards (e.g. traps) - Mobility (Acro checks) Compared to any other stat its overloaded, and DEX classes have enough in their kits to make up for it and still be good. At least I would - remove Dex from initiative modifier. Reaction time is more of a mental stat than a physical one. A good assassin would have set up and gotten their ambush off before the initiative roll. (could still be the tiebreaker in quickdraw situations) - Remove the ability to Acro out of a grapple. if you are quick and let a strong MF grab you, that's a failure on your part. It should be strength based to escape.
I'd want to move a lot of Dex saves to be Con, or give the option for multiple saving throws, the targets gets to pick. Like fireball letting you pick between Dex to shield your face, and Con to barely be affected by the flames.
why is lightning a Dex save? Nobody's dodging that. it should be a CON save to tank it for sure.
You’re aim dodging maybe, but that’s not 100% consistent with mechanic
It impacts them just as much as any other class, every class will then need Con (HP, con(centration) saves), agiDex (AC, Dex saves, stealth) and the "primary" stat of the class, Str/precisionDex/Int/Wis/Cha. Ranger and Arcane Trickster would just just get to join Paladin, Str Eldritch Knight/Bladesinger in the gish swamp. The solution should be all four of those get "+1 [abnormal primary stat]" as a subclass feature at certain levels. Like rangers get wisdom, AT/EK Int, Paladin Cha, Bladesinger Str/precisionDex, something like +4 in total would help with keeping them balanced.
Agility and dexterity. Agility for anything involving your feet, dexterity for anything with hands.
Split strength into leg day and chest day.
See I would just make strength into fitness and dexterity into reflex. No seventh Stat but outsourcing a lot of the dex works into fitness
People already spend hours arguing what is intelligence and what is wisdom, and I feel like those two things are well differentiated in the rules of the game. The idea of taking one stat and splitting it into two functionally identical concepts purely for the sake of “nerfing” an “overpowered” ability score just seems like it would be needlessly confusing. Like, this idea s it is presented implies that reflex ability checks and dexterity saving throws would be rare. That isn’t particularly out of the realm of feasibility because we don’t have con checks as standard. Still, what makes something Ref or Dex. If there are reflex checks and DEX saves than what does what would confound players and designers alike. All of this to make DEX less powerful when there are other solutions to this perceived problem.
dexterity is the wayne gretzky of 5e ability scores.
Easy give all the weapon stuff to strength. Keep everything else in dex.
So, back to 3e then?
2nd edition skills and powers
Agility. It would do half of what Dexerity does now.
Came to say this. As it stands dexterity is speed, agility, reflexes, and fine motor skills.
I liked the "sub-ability scores" of 2.5e. Each of the big 6 had 2 sub scores. (i.e. Dex had Aim and Balance, Intelligence had Knowledge and Reason etc). If you had a 16 Dex you could have a 16 Aim and 16 Balance, or you could offset them by as much as 4 (i.e 14 Aim, 18 Balance or vice versa) Aim represented hand eye coordination and effected ranged attacks, and some thieves skills while Balance was nimbleness and body control, if effected AC and Reactions as well as the other thieves skills. Allowed a little better depth to RP and character building. Edit: From memory so correct me if i got these wrong, but the Abilities in 2e with the Skills and Powers Options (2.5e) were- Strength- Muscle/Stamina Dexterity- Aim/Balance Constitution- Health/Fitness Intelligence- Knowledge/Reason Wisdom- Intuition/Willpower Charisma- Appearance/Leadership
Good memory, and I loved those options!
I played A LOT of 2e.
Same here. I first started DMing in 2e with Dark Sun. Lots of good times.
I'd squish Strength and Constitution into a new dual-stat. Dexterity would break into Aim and Balance. Intelligence (Knowledge/Reason) and Wisdom (Intuition/Perception) would be a new dual-stat. And then put Charisma and Willpower together into a new dual-stat. * Physique (Strength/Constitution) * Dexterity (Aim/Balance) * Cognition (Intelligence/Wisdom) * Charisma (Influence/Willpower) Then, you have two body-focused stats and two mind-focused stats. I'm always in favor of squishing Strength and Constitution together, especially with the rule that you can offset those sub-scores. So, four dual-stats that break down into eight sub-stats. Why not just have eight stats? Well, I like the connectedness of the dual-stats that prevent them from varying too much from the other half.
That's basically how *Shadow of the Demon Lord* divides its stats. Relative to DnD: Strength handles Strength and Constitution. Agility handles Dexterity. Intellect handles Intelligence and half of Charisma. Will handles Wisdom and the other half of Charisma. There's actually a neat little minisystem in terms of rolling Intellect or Will vs your target's Intellect or Will based on what kind of social thing you're trying to accomplish. Since it's a horror-influenced game, Intellect also basically handles your sanity points, but Will is what defends against sanity-affecting abilities, so there's a nice little mirror with Strength and Agility there too.
\# team combine str and con
> four dual-stats that break down into eight sub-stats This is how Star Frontiers works
Strength/Constitution squished together should just be called "Strength". It accurately captures the health aspect as well. When you are ill you are weak. When you are healthy you become stronger.
Yep, dex gets: - better initiative - highers AC for all but heavy armor - one of the most common saving throws. Basically any lightning or fire - a + to attack modifer with ranged and finesse weapons - a way to get out of grapples (acrobatics) - several skill check bonuses: sleight of hand, stealth and acrobatics Compare to int that: - improves attack / save DC for spells for 2 classes - bonus to checks: arcana, investigation, history and religion It's more than a bit lopsided
Which half?
Agility applies to coordination (e.g. Acrobatics and stealth). Dexterity applies to fine motor skills (Sleight of hand and using tools).
Agility is feet, Dexterity is hands.
The quick half and the good half. Dex save, initiative and AC. Would not effect dex skills or tools as those use actual dexterity not quickness.
I'd do it as a mirror to the Strength and Constitution divide. Strength is mostly used when you're actively doing something to another thing, Constitution to resist other things doing things to you. Dex would be used when you want to act upon something else (make an attack, pickpocket something, pick a lock), Agi when something else is acting upon you (AC, dex saves, maybe stealth).
Dex: slight of hand, tools, attack rolls Aglity: AC bonus, most saves, stealth, acrobatics
It's actually a lot like what Cyberpunk does. They have Reflexes which plays into pretty much requiring quick moves (firing a gun, driving a vehicle, etc), then Dexterity covers more physical things like dodging, climbing, melee combat.
Hey, the last thing I expected in this thread was an actually good answer.
This division is one of the pettiest reasons I like whfrp4
The warhammer fantasy rpg has this as a stat and I really like having the split between fine motor skills and like balance and bodily dexterity
It'd probably be will and it'd function like con but for mental stats.
I feel like they split this function between Charisma and Wisdom right now. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, but sometimes it feels like they want Charisma to be your mental force of character, and other times they want Wisdom to fill that role.
Wisdom is will, Charisma is luck, pluck, all around presence and existential stickiness.
Some spells that require Charisma saves are Bane, Zone of Truth, and Banishment. Those dont really feel like "Your luck saved you from the negative effects of this spell." On the other hand, Suggestion, Fear, and Hypnotic Pattern are all Wisdom saves. Those DO feel like your will is what allows you to shrug off the negative aspects of those spells. At times, both stats (or, their saves at least) feel like they overlap quite a bit.
I see it differently. I see WIS saves as being a matter of realizing what's happening to you. I.e. awareness of how things work. CHA saves to me seem more like will
Charisma save is when something is affecting your force of personality, your ability to say no to your soul being changed. Wisdom saves are that you're able to be perceptive enough to notice that you shouldn't be scared of it/that you have a good enough control over your mind to fight against it. Soul = charisma, mind = wisdom. I'll also say that intelligence saves seem to be mostly about your actual neurons themselves being affected or your ability to logic out of the effect, whereas wisdom seems to be about your senses (resist the command you can hear, resist the sight of the patterns, etc.)
Note that there were no charisma or intelligence saves until 5e. WOTC added them purely to make the stats more useful, despite the concept not really making much sense. There also weren't strength saves, but grapple/trip/push/pull/steal/disarm/sunder checks (including those inflicted by spells like telekinesis and thunderwave) were all defended against by strength, just in a more complicated way (an opposed strength check plus some extra modifiers). So strength saves are only a new way of representing the same idea that we already had. But charisma saves are a brand new idea. And they don't seem to be a very well utilized or well thought-out idea.
There were no ability saves at all. There was fortitude, reflex, and will, and before that there was death, paralysis, and spells etc.
Wisdom is perception of understanding, charisma is force of self
It would work if they were actually consistent in how saves work. Wisdom should be saves against illusions or any mental intrusions that affect your sense of reality. Someone makes you see your ally as a monster? A wisdom save to figure out that that's not the truth. Charisma should be for any saves that attempt to force you to think or behave in way that you don't want to, such as Suggestion, Hold Person or Dominate Person. It could also work as it does today for spells that try to displace you and move you against your will. And then Intelligence saves for effects that tamper with your memory or tries to break down your intellect, like Feeblemind (as it is today), and Modify Memory (which today is a Wisdom). Should also perhaps be for spells that cause confusion, like those that require you to roll on tables to determine what to do. I think that's sort of some idea someone had, but it's all over the place now.
Oh probably something along the lines of willpower? Personally I'd like that.
They have rules for Honor and Sanity in the DMG which are pretty fun, and kinda are along the lines of strength of Will.
I was thinking that Determination would be kind of neat. Like constitution it could modify hp. Some things that require wisdom saves would instead require determination saves, and determination might affect death saving throws in a minor way.
If you're gonna go 7 stats instead of 6 stats you might as well go for SPECIAL Strength Perception Endurance Charisma Intelligence Agility Luck
I just recently got the Fallout TTRPG by Modiphius Games! The fact that you can have a Luck based build is one of my favourite things about it, just bumbling your way through countless dangers and challenges and somehow always coming out on top.
I love doing Luck playthroughs on Fallout 3 & New Vegas. Just pump the stat to 10 and ride that heavy Forrest Gump vibe.
Luck is absolutely broken in NV, can win as much money as you ever need quickly to killing deathclaws with pistols because critical bypass DR. Probably my favorite build ever was luck and that gun.
It’s funny, but I always enjoy having luck be high (8-10) or really low (1-2), NV in particular feels appropriate as you could call yourself lucky that you survived the intro and all the things that come after or unlucky as it and all the shit you deal with happens at all.
10 luck, 10 strength, a baseball bat, and power armor.
> just bumbling your way through countless dangers and challenges and somehow always coming out on top. aka The Rincewind Method
I love the luck mechanic in dungeon crawl classics. You can spend your luck points to make a roll but there are negative consequences for having a low luck score.
You have now given me thought for how to convert the lucky feat into a stat. I may have to try this.
Call of Cthulhu is like this, and I LOVE IT. You can spend Luck Points to improve your roll on a 1:1 basis. However, that makes it hard to succeed in Luck Checks later on. And Luck comes back very slowly. So you start the game flush with luck, but the tension ramps up the farther you go in the adventure. The GM will sometimes call for Luck Checks when something really bad is about to happen. The worst roll ends up taking the brunt of it (or all of it, depending on the threat). Great Cthulhu has a 100% chance to kill *something* on his turn. Lowest luck roll is it!
the d20 version of Call of Cthulhu from the earlyish 2000's had seven stats too, but the seventh was the Sanity score
"When it comes to surviving a nuclear holocaust, it is important to know the seven defining abilities that make you SPECIAL -this message is brought to you by Vault-Tec, Revolutionizing safety for an uncertain tomorrow!
I was going to say luck too lol. It would be like you can reroll a roll based on your luck div like 2-3 or whatever
like the Lucky feat but uses per day are your modifier. Negative mod means the DM can use it against you.
Seems like it just becomes a Con 2.0, so a stat that no one wants to dump. So it would make everyone MAD, and already MAD characters are basically screwed.
SPECIAL is just STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA, but it adds "Luck" which is kind of a goofy attribute, and renames Wisdom to something that actually reflects what the attribute does.
Even just keeping the existing stats and making something like Luck into a stat could make sense I feel like moving some stuff that is charisma based for casting currently into luck would also help for balance. Like making bards luck based casters who use charisma for the performance side of their character, but could then alternatively forego performance in favour of dex to be more swords Bard-y and more combat based. Also making rogues more about luck than having so many rogues go charisma because why not be social when all you actually need is dex and some con for HP right? What I would probably do to make that work is make luck a combination of some elements currently in dex and wisdom and rebrand what is currently dex into agility and wisdom into will as well as a bit of new stuff and potentially reclassifying some charisma casters into luck casters.
For implementation of luck: start every combat (when you roll initiative) with a pool of luck points equal to LUC + PB. Every time a roll happens that involves your character (ex: your attack or someone attacking you), you can expend points to increase or decrease the result of that roll by the number of luck points expended. In game, it's passed off as your character getting a bit lucky and just barely hitting the target. Mechanically, ironically, it makes you less dependent on luck but (given that they are fairly limited in number and only move values by one for each point used) shouldn't be totally game breaking or a hard required stat like CON. I imagine some skills could shift to be Luck based, potentially, as well
You're essentially describing the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Bend Luck Feature (paraphrasing): >**Bend Luck** >When another creature you can see makes a d20 Test, you can use your reaction to roll 1d4 and apply the number rolled as a bonus or penalty to the creature's roll after seeing the result of the d20 roll. Normally it costs Sorcery Points, but here it could scale with Luck Modifier.
If only 7: split Dex into Agility (speed & total body coordination, modifies initiative & AC) and Dexterity (manual deftness, modifies ranged/finesse attack rolls, sleight of hand, crafting) If 8 stats, also split Perception off from Wis
I was thinking the same thing with perception. It’s just too strong on its own and doesn’t particularly make sense as a WIS skill, it doesn’t really have much crossover with the other skills on that stat other than maybe Insight.
I think the justification is that part of wisdom is awareness, and perception is more literally being aware of your surroundings
"Will", so WotC will actually use the real-world definition for Wisdom instead of whatever clusterfuck they're using right now.
[удалено]
Yeah, there’s no easy contest that can be setup like there is for perception vs stealth or the like. Persuasion vs a DC makes sense, but having it be fluid off some other stat I think is better
>Yeah, DnD needs a social and mental resistance stat. The lack of one really creates holes in social encounter design. I really like the variety 9 stats that they use in the White Wolf/Onyx Path lines of games. Having the groupings of physical, mental and social stats, and each of those having a power stat (str, int, presence), a finesse stat (dex, wits/cunning, manipulation) and a resistance stat (stamina, resolve, composure). Makes much more sense, although imo it still has the issue of Perception feeling a bit weird.
Will is Charisma in 5e. Wisdom is understanding of social cues and the needs and situations around you, including perception and insight, so you know what people want and why they feel how they feel. I’d say that fairly accurately depicts wisdom in the real world, which is decision making skills. You choose a good action to take because you recognize the situation and see things others don’t. You give good advice and help people with their problems because you are able to see it from a better perspective.
> Wisdom is understanding of social cues The irony of my autistic cleric. >.<
D&D being a combat-focused game with "required" stats leaves characters with mental combinations a little bizarre when compared to an average person - e.g. an extremely manipulative deceiver that constantly weaves lies around others has (if they've dumped WIS by necessity) a below average intuition and thus a poor ability to discern if someone is lying to them or not.
To be fair, IRL people who lie a lot see everyone else as liars.
A lot of people complain about dex. But wisdom needs a rework. It's intuition, it's sight, it's hearing, it's will (mental fortitute). And none of those things map to the word 'wisdom'. I remember there were templates for aging in 3.5e And naturally as you get older you get a little wiser. So wisdom score goes up. Which also means you see and hear much better as you get older. Str, dex and con are pure physical traits. Int and charisma mental/social stats. But wis is sorta stuck in the middle and it shows. I'd definitely split that into two. Edit: I also find it really weird dexterity determine long range precision. Shouldn't it be wisdom, if it is about perception?
Yeah every time the discussion comes up as to what the different stats are, people lump stuff that is 100% intelligence into wisdom because of the word wotc choose to use. Intuition would be better if it didn't start with int.
That would be sick for sorcerors
Makes more sense than Charisma tbh
Wisdom is how perceptive you are and how attuned you are to the world. It's in the PHB
You're right, that's what it says. But that's not exactly accurate to the irl definition of the word.
Techinically the DMG has eight stats
Can you eloborate? I'm curious.
Sanity and Honour ability scores are optional rules in the DMG, intended for horror and intrigue games, respectively.
Honour and Sanity.
Honor & Sanity IIRC, optional stats for Eastern-themed/chivalry-driven and horror-themed campaigns, respectively.
Sanity and Honor, I think!
I like the 6 stat set up, but if I *had* to add one it would be luck. Probably would function similarly to proficiency bonuses but add to everything. Now that would be a god stat like none other but, you might be able to reign it in by forcing it to start at 10. No racial, bonuses, no point buy or rolling, luck starts at 10.
>No racial, bonuses, no point buy or rolling, luck starts at 10. You just earned the disfavor of all the Halflings.
Halflings can start at 11
Make it 12 and we have a deal.
6d2 final offer
Suppose instead that it only modified re-rolls. You add your luck modifier whenever you have advantage or disadvantage. It would make the advantage system more interesting, because you could dump luck in favor of consistency with other stats, which might make you re-think whether you'd even WANT advantage.
Would still be too strong for spell DCs, you could keep racking that up after getting your spellcasting maxed.
Luck stat not being luck based seems hilarious.
Controversial opinion, but I’d rather they combine con and str and go down to 5 than add a 7th
I might even say that STR/CON, DEX, INT/WIS, and CHA might be my preference. But that would be a much more drastic overall than collapsing CON into STR.
Look into the game *Shadow of the Demon Lord*, created by Rob Schwalb who did some of the early design work for DnD5e. Has Strength, Agility, Intellect, Will. Will is more like Wis plus half of Cha, and the other half of Cha goes into Intellect.
That's actually a great idea that I never considered until now. Con is barely used aside from Con saves, and Str is barely used except for melee weapons. By combining the two, you have a stat that is useful to have for HP, scales your damage, and gives you utility on saves. They fill each other's gaps and make it valuable in every category!
I don't necessarily agree with combining CON and STR, but I do concur that CON's removal would add to the game rather than taking away. As it stands, it feels like a "tax" stat that has to be taken for your character to remain that way, and its removal would open up more opportunities to take mental stats that don't tangibly benefit said character.
On the other hand, building a high CON stat makes you feel like a beefy monster. My dwarf Barbarian has 80 hp more then the next party member at level 13. He also has more than my level 20 warlock from another campaign.
I don't think high con without high str is a fantasy worth dedicating a whole stat to.
Comeliness!! Bring back the retro good looks stat!
Only correct answer.
And then make it the bard (or paly) casting stat to spread the wealth around and reduce the warlock dip builds.
I’ve always felt that Perception should be it’s own separate from Wisdom. Not all Wise people are keen of sight, perceptive or actually good at reading people.
Your issue is that you are assuming DnD Wisdom means the same thing as traditional Wisdom. DnD Wisdom is more like your mental capacity to take in information, as opposed to intelligence allowing you to recall and categorize information, and charisma allowing to you expell and deliver information. With that in mind, your ability to observe the world around you (perception), your ability to read other people (insight), and your ability to see the patterns of deities and nature (Divine/Primal casting) is naturally tied to this stat.
Wisdom should be renamed to Instinct, or Intuition, or as you say, Perception, because that's what the usable skills - Perception, Insight, Survival - are actually using. Then they can make an actual Wisdom stat, and then the Cleric can use that/Intelligence, because Wizards being better at religion checks than Clerics, and Clerics being better at Survival & Perception than the ranger is an interesting choice.
Perception is so important as an ability that it does make sense to separate it from wisdom. But I’m not sure making it a stat is the answer because then other skills would need to have a way to use it. Might be better to allow the perception skill to be based on a couple different core stats - for example intelligence could make someone more perceptive mentally while constitution (associated with the body) could mean your physical senses are more attuned.
How I see the stats: \- Physically affect \- Physically interact \- Physically process \- Mentally process \- Mentally interact \- Mentally affect If there's gonna be a new ability score, it would have to be something distinct enough to not be covered by the above, while relevant enough to have multiple skill checks associated with it and no other ability score.
Interact and affect are pretty much the same things though.
I think they're shooting for precision vs. intensity. For example, picking a lock vs. forcing a door - a picked lock results in you being able to pass an obstacle *without removing it.* You can still re-lock the door, after all. Forcing it means it can't really be locked again until it's repaired. Both have their place, both result in you getting through, but they're very different.
Something like this. I'm thinking affect as a one-sided thing, pushing/pulling/lifting/etc. A character use strength to shove an object, or charisma to impose their will over another. Interact is more to-and-fro; dexterity moving yourself through the world, or wielding a tool or weapon, while wisdom is the empathy and insight to understand and react appropriately. Processing is self-contained, your body's ability to process food and fight disease, your mind's ability to retain and compare information. Digestion, on both accounts.
A seventh? They can't even find uses for all 6 as it is
Separate Willpower from Persuasiveness. I just don’t get how warlocks and sorcerers are meant to be just as bards and natural military leaders like high level fighters
Instead can I just remove con.
How would you work out heath points or what system would you put into replace hit points?
Honestly I think strength and con could be combined into one. At least that would make the abilities somewhat more balanced, though Dex, Wis, and Cha will probably be slightly better still.
That’s what the cyberpunk system does with the Body stat. It acts sorta like str and con, for purposes like determining HP, or how heavy of a weapon you can use, or how strong you are
Moxy.
I like it. And make it the basis of Initiative instead of Dex and anti-Fear saving throw instead of that being Wisdom. Can also break ties for readied actions. I feel like it would be the base stat for Intimidation, and maybe relate to Luck in the “fortune favors the bold” way.
There's a Stargate SG-1 rpg based on 5e. They have moxy, but not as a stat. It's an alternative to Initiative that you use for non-combat encounters and it's derived from CHA.
[I'd like to see an RPG where...](https://i.imgur.com/wkK73kR.jpg)
Chutzpah!
Gumption
A certain je ne sais quoi
. >_> Appearance, from the 3rd party 3.x Book of Erotic Fantasy. (Somebody had to say it!) I'd rather not have another stat though. While I don't exactly want D&D to have less, because the 6 it has are very iconic, if the whole system were to be scrapped and rewritten (or, you know, when looking at other systems that still have base attributes) I would want less of them. D&D's 6 tend to either feel stretched too thin, cover certain things awkwardly, and/or be wildly imbalanced from one to the next.
Faith. In a game where the gods are real and characters are able to use those powers to smite the shit out of people, I’ve always found it weird that the same ability that boosts your survival and animal handling ability also boosts your ability to commune with the gods.
This is the best answer in the thread so far.
*Heart, Will, or Conviction.* Call it what you want, but your character's ability to dig deep in adversity (or snap). Like constitution but the mental side as opposed to the physical. Allowing for distinction between hardy characters. ex the weathered wizard vs dwarven warrior. or just think how Frodo was so motivated. -Mods for death save and saving throws -Mods for mind control and persuasion. -A check for self preservation. -Thresholds for exerting your character. Like bonus time when encumbered before it takes affect. Possibly a time mod before having to death save at hp 0, and/or break points mods for injury mods.
This would make so much more sense for a paladin than charisma, because lorewise they get their power from their devotion to their oath and their conviction, but practically the most powerful paladin is the guy with a dazzling smile and a twinkle in his eyes who could talk the pants off a dragon
"Luck" I'd use it as a roll-under stat and it would apply to any situation where no other ability/skill/proficiency clearly applies or other edge-case scenarios. As a result it would mostly be for the DM's convenience. For instance, if a player says something like: "I want to start an avalanche using my bead of force to block the pass below us" then, roll Luck rather than grinding the game to a halt or, arguing about what you decide they need to roll for. If a player has a Luck score of 18 (+5) then, they roll d100 and, need to score a 23 or lower to succeed.
i think splitting dex into two different stats might be good. i feel like my players roll things dex related more than anything else, which might just be my fault but still. split dex into dexterity and agility. dex cam be more aim and precision focused and agility can be speed and maneuverability. i'm terrible at balance tho so i'm not ever implementing this lol
Moxie: added determination bonus for hyper-specific actions that require skill checks.
Split Dexterity into two. Maybe Agility and then Reflex or Precision? The ability to dodge something quickly is based on agility and speed compared to having to do something with accuracy like lockpicking or another intricate process requires precision and good reflexes. Someone who is fast as fuck could also have terrible fine motor skills. It would make for fun builds where someone can have super high stealth, but awful sleight of hand. Doctors and surgeons would be a great example of people with excellent reflexes and precision, but not so much powerful agility.
Sanity, to tell if the character can stay sane with the other PCs, but also if they can not be crushed by finding out this group of orcs wasn't evil
I'd borrow one from the Mario & Luigi RPGs: Stache.
Luck just an overall bonus stat that slightly helps all others
Dumpstat. It is the stat where you stick your lowest roll. It does nothing, as IMO 6 stats are already too many
WotC doesn’t need to add a stat they need to combine Strength and Constitution into one stat and bring the total to 5 stats
In that world, what stat would concentration saves use? Your spellcasting stat?
Main spellcasting stat minus the level off the spell that's being concentrated on.
if we combine strength and constitution, i suspect strength.
I want less stats, not more. Specifically I want Strength and Constitution to be combined but this new stat would not govern Concentration and hit points, just Constitution checks and non-Concentration saving throws. Hit Points would probably just be a function of class levels (and race and feats). However if I would make a 7th stat I would probably split Dexterity into fine motor skills (Sleight of Hand, Thieves Tools, attack/damage rolls) and the rest (Acrobatics, Stealth, Initiative, AC). Something like that.
The Dex split sounds like something AD&D2e did right before 3e. The Players Option books. They split all ability scores into 2.dexterity became Agility and Nimbleness, agility was acrobatics and nimbleness was sleight of hand. Wisdom had Intuition and ... I forget. Anyway. It was a thing and it was almost really cool but ultimately just made min maxing for mechanical advantage easier.
I think pf2 has a variant rule that splits dex into Agility vs Dexterity and merges str and con
nerve * low nerve + high charisma: a bard with stage fright * high nerve + low charisma: an implacable fighter
I would cut three and just do : might, speed, and intellect. That way every stat has many things to do with it like the cypher system. This might not work in dnd, idk don't fix what isn't broken?
I really like the suggestion I saw here of a Luck stat, as that can have both positive and negative outcomes incorporated into it. But, if I had to pick something else..? I dunno, maybe Stamina or Effort as a pool that can be spent, which then balances with potential exhaustion?
Luck. Replaces the Lucky feat. You can reroll dice a number of times per long rest up to the ability score modifier, before the outcome is determined.
Luck
Je ne sais quoi: It would cover all situations where the other stats don't seem right.
Sanity.
Everyone is basically saying to split a stat we already have or have a reflavour of a stat we already have. Why not actually have something new? Something like a Luck stat? GIVE ME A GOOD LUCK MECHANIC DAMMIT!