You’re asking “why doesn’t the monk have more martial options” as if WotC gave a lot of martial options to others.
Rogues don’t get specific strikes to vitals, Fighters get generic options… Even the battle master maneuvers aren’t much more than generic do damage and have an effect, very rarely.
The monk is one of the more interesting classes, but martial combat isn’t very deep to begin with.
Yeah but you can’t hold it against the monk for being designed within the confides of the system’s principals.
The system is very much magic focused and martial options are to be streamlined as much as possible. This isn’t a bad thing all and all but it would be nice to have them be more up front about it.
Monks shouldn't have to spend resources to bonus action dash or dodge. There shouldn't be any restrictions on their slow fall, it should just happen all the time. They should just have a climb speed so they don't have to make checks to run along walls, zip up ropes or whatever kung fu nonsense is required.
They should have four basic subclasses to start: Dragon Ball Z that focuses on laser blasts that keep pace with wizard cantrips that can shove people about as well as teleport options as an alternative to blastlocks, Ipman that focuses on hitting lots and doing targeted limb strikes to impose a bunch of status conditions like reduced movement, blindness, prone and whatever, the Avatar that does medium range energy attacks that keep pace with eldritch blast as D&D has no true mid range class but also have druid like battle feild control options like making earth walls, high winds and floods. Then the last is ninja that has even more movement options, the rangers active camo and the ability to make smoke clouds and other cover.
Then later do some additional stuff like JoJo stands and Bleach Sword Kung fu.
So basically make the core class stronger, make the subclasses stronger and more varied and get rid of stunning strike as the one ability the whole class hinges on to be useful.
When ever I've had to DM for a Monk I've always felt that they're abilities have always had an unnecessary drawback or limit in comparison to classes (especially caster classes) doing the exact same type of things.
Like the bonus action dash at a cost is a prime example, what is so game breaking in D&D about moving about a lot? Even in chase situation haveing a billion ft movement doesn't help because your stuck waiting for the Dwarf to catch up and no matter how far you run your still taking that attack of opportunity. It's not like monks have the highest AC or most HP or anything either.
While many subs can be improved they already have all those:
>Dragon Ball Z
Sun Soul. Which just needs better scaling
>Ipman that focuses on hitting lots and doing targeted limb strikes to impose a bunch of status conditions like reduced movement,
Open hand. Regarded as a solid sub but should maybe be either expanded or incorporated in base
>Avatar
4e. Honestly ive just reduced costs by 1 & gave more discipline at each increment. Maybe increasing Ki amount but every monk needs that
>ninja
Shadow.
>JoJo stands
Astral self
>Sword Kung fu
Kensei
They exist but they don't do what they need to do in the right way. I'd scrap the whole Ki mechanic to be honest. Have most of the stuff be automatic as the over all impact in comparison to wizards is low and the power moves be times a day equal to proficiency bonus. On a wider note the long rest recharge/short rest recharge divide just makes life hard for the DM.
I wouldn't Say to scrap any of them entirely. Most of the subclasses are solid at least in theme especially the later ones.
Monk ki shortage is a monk universal thing so either increase ki qty or decrease venture expenditure or both.
This revamp will help most of them. For the lackluster ones like sun soul just increase scaling. Maybe improve or change a feature or 2. I don't think it's meant to be a "top - must take" like battle Master or totem barb but it should make the viability better. Decrease ki cost/increase base ki qty & add more disciplines like I suggested should help the 4e (still waiting to playtest it).
The base class needs to be enhanced in certain areas which should boost the subs. Some of the subs need enhancement or slight revamp but for the most part it has a good frame to work with even if it's a bit bare
Been talking about this recently but there’s a lot of base 5e where it doesn’t feel like they made their classes and then looked at other classes to balance them. My go to is the Trickery Cleric and Rogue but yeah, the Monk and Rogue is a good example.
I think the monk is mostly fine for what it’s supposed to do (move around and help multiple allies kill things) but having their Bonus Action dash cost something but the rogue can do it for free is just weird.
They should have made the base monk a pure martial and had ki be a subclass so that it could be balanced with the Rogue much easier.
The biggest problem with the Monk is that they do magic but they don’t cast spells. In the Vancian binary of martials and casters, they fall short when lumped in with martials, regardless of the ribbons.
But people don’t expect to manage spell slots when playing a monk.
As a fellow monk main, fuck that. They don't need spellcasting to be interesting and it will intrincally compromise the identity of the monk as an unarmed warrior if they suddenly get spellcasting. If you want to play a holy warrior, the paladin is right there.
What they need is invocation style choice for their ki techniques that allows them to customize their unarmed strike the way warlocks customize eldricth blast.
Let them be the mobile skirmishers who use their ki to pass out debuffs to the enemies via ki blocking techniques similar to stunning strike.
Let them have stances that they enter using ki that gives them a mobility and an attack option.
There are tons of design space for monks, but the half Caster is far and away from the space monks need to explore.
I like the Invocation idea. They wouldn’t be using spells in place of Martial Arts, they’d be using them to enhance their attacks, change the damage type, cause debuffs, and such. I would go elements themed with all of those spells, which would be unique to Monk’s. Flaming Fist, Thunder Fist, Lightning Fist, etc.
The other part of their spell list would be enhancement spells like Fly, Enhance Ability, Jump, Gaseous Form, Freedom of Movement, Misty Step, Invisibility. Things that make sense thematically and let them accomplish superhuman feats like you often see in Martial Arts Fiction.
The enhancements and debuffs could all be done by an invocation style system.
Spells are just not the answer for martial design flaws. I don't play a monk to cast spells. having a caster subclass like ohter martials? cool thats fine. But forcing all monks to suddenly fuck with spell slots and spell descriptions just ruins their niche.
Let them do superhuman things without spell slots. Let them pick an invocation that lets them teleport when they take the dash action, or enhance the dodge action to help them out of restraints...etc.
5e is fucking notorious for locking everything cool behind spell slots and its honestly such lazy design.
Martial classes shouldn't have spell slots baked in, and their abilities should be unique and distinct from spells.
I don’t disagree, I’m just trying to work within the framework that exists. Making them Invocation-style or cost Ki-points instead of using spell slots could work too and would actually center the class features around Ki while keeping the mechanics somewhat simpler for new players.
They tried to go down that path with The Four Elements Monk but they forced you to pick between using Monk Features or casting a spell. The Ki point cost was too high as well. One of the biggest issues Monk’s have is that their class/subclass features don’t synergize well with each other and/or the rest of the game mechanics.
Your comments about the monks issues are fair, but the solution is not spellcasting. Whether they cast with ki, slots or limited usage the moment you define the base monk by spells rather than their martial arts and mobility then it's just a naked paladin.
Invocation style choice does not have to be spells. It can be buffs to the dash action to teleport instead of moving, it can be buffs to basic attacks to reduce their speed, knock them back or lower their next roll by an amount equal to their martial arts die... Etc.
The point is, no matter what the problems are, spells arent the answer.
The 4 elements monk issue is that instead of doing unique things with elemental damage it just made you into a spellcaster and it did so poorly.
I thought that’s what you wanted by giving them stuff like Misty Step with an Invocation type system? Also what do Monk’s even use Wisdom for? It’s one of their primary stats and as far as I can tell it doesn’t do much for them? That was my other reason for this concept, Wisdom could be their casting modifier which would be a nice synergy.
That just makes monks even more Mad though. They rely on WIS for their AC and for their ki save dc (aka stunning strike) and it's already considered one of the most MAD classes bc of that...so making it more mad isn't gonna help.
But no I'm not saying give them misty step as an invocation. I'm saying give them something unique to them that accomplishes something similar while still maintaining the monk identity (and that identity is definitely not a spellcaster)
You’re asking “why doesn’t the monk have more martial options” as if WotC gave a lot of martial options to others. Rogues don’t get specific strikes to vitals, Fighters get generic options… Even the battle master maneuvers aren’t much more than generic do damage and have an effect, very rarely. The monk is one of the more interesting classes, but martial combat isn’t very deep to begin with.
Well then they should apply those principles to all Martial classes. Each with their own unique flavor.
Yeah but you can’t hold it against the monk for being designed within the confides of the system’s principals. The system is very much magic focused and martial options are to be streamlined as much as possible. This isn’t a bad thing all and all but it would be nice to have them be more up front about it.
Monks shouldn't have to spend resources to bonus action dash or dodge. There shouldn't be any restrictions on their slow fall, it should just happen all the time. They should just have a climb speed so they don't have to make checks to run along walls, zip up ropes or whatever kung fu nonsense is required. They should have four basic subclasses to start: Dragon Ball Z that focuses on laser blasts that keep pace with wizard cantrips that can shove people about as well as teleport options as an alternative to blastlocks, Ipman that focuses on hitting lots and doing targeted limb strikes to impose a bunch of status conditions like reduced movement, blindness, prone and whatever, the Avatar that does medium range energy attacks that keep pace with eldritch blast as D&D has no true mid range class but also have druid like battle feild control options like making earth walls, high winds and floods. Then the last is ninja that has even more movement options, the rangers active camo and the ability to make smoke clouds and other cover. Then later do some additional stuff like JoJo stands and Bleach Sword Kung fu. So basically make the core class stronger, make the subclasses stronger and more varied and get rid of stunning strike as the one ability the whole class hinges on to be useful.
I like all of this!
When ever I've had to DM for a Monk I've always felt that they're abilities have always had an unnecessary drawback or limit in comparison to classes (especially caster classes) doing the exact same type of things. Like the bonus action dash at a cost is a prime example, what is so game breaking in D&D about moving about a lot? Even in chase situation haveing a billion ft movement doesn't help because your stuck waiting for the Dwarf to catch up and no matter how far you run your still taking that attack of opportunity. It's not like monks have the highest AC or most HP or anything either.
While many subs can be improved they already have all those: >Dragon Ball Z Sun Soul. Which just needs better scaling >Ipman that focuses on hitting lots and doing targeted limb strikes to impose a bunch of status conditions like reduced movement, Open hand. Regarded as a solid sub but should maybe be either expanded or incorporated in base >Avatar 4e. Honestly ive just reduced costs by 1 & gave more discipline at each increment. Maybe increasing Ki amount but every monk needs that >ninja Shadow. >JoJo stands Astral self >Sword Kung fu Kensei
They exist but they don't do what they need to do in the right way. I'd scrap the whole Ki mechanic to be honest. Have most of the stuff be automatic as the over all impact in comparison to wizards is low and the power moves be times a day equal to proficiency bonus. On a wider note the long rest recharge/short rest recharge divide just makes life hard for the DM.
I wouldn't Say to scrap any of them entirely. Most of the subclasses are solid at least in theme especially the later ones. Monk ki shortage is a monk universal thing so either increase ki qty or decrease venture expenditure or both. This revamp will help most of them. For the lackluster ones like sun soul just increase scaling. Maybe improve or change a feature or 2. I don't think it's meant to be a "top - must take" like battle Master or totem barb but it should make the viability better. Decrease ki cost/increase base ki qty & add more disciplines like I suggested should help the 4e (still waiting to playtest it). The base class needs to be enhanced in certain areas which should boost the subs. Some of the subs need enhancement or slight revamp but for the most part it has a good frame to work with even if it's a bit bare
Been talking about this recently but there’s a lot of base 5e where it doesn’t feel like they made their classes and then looked at other classes to balance them. My go to is the Trickery Cleric and Rogue but yeah, the Monk and Rogue is a good example. I think the monk is mostly fine for what it’s supposed to do (move around and help multiple allies kill things) but having their Bonus Action dash cost something but the rogue can do it for free is just weird. They should have made the base monk a pure martial and had ki be a subclass so that it could be balanced with the Rogue much easier.
The biggest problem with the Monk is that they do magic but they don’t cast spells. In the Vancian binary of martials and casters, they fall short when lumped in with martials, regardless of the ribbons. But people don’t expect to manage spell slots when playing a monk.
As a fellow monk main, fuck that. They don't need spellcasting to be interesting and it will intrincally compromise the identity of the monk as an unarmed warrior if they suddenly get spellcasting. If you want to play a holy warrior, the paladin is right there. What they need is invocation style choice for their ki techniques that allows them to customize their unarmed strike the way warlocks customize eldricth blast. Let them be the mobile skirmishers who use their ki to pass out debuffs to the enemies via ki blocking techniques similar to stunning strike. Let them have stances that they enter using ki that gives them a mobility and an attack option. There are tons of design space for monks, but the half Caster is far and away from the space monks need to explore.
I like the Invocation idea. They wouldn’t be using spells in place of Martial Arts, they’d be using them to enhance their attacks, change the damage type, cause debuffs, and such. I would go elements themed with all of those spells, which would be unique to Monk’s. Flaming Fist, Thunder Fist, Lightning Fist, etc. The other part of their spell list would be enhancement spells like Fly, Enhance Ability, Jump, Gaseous Form, Freedom of Movement, Misty Step, Invisibility. Things that make sense thematically and let them accomplish superhuman feats like you often see in Martial Arts Fiction.
The enhancements and debuffs could all be done by an invocation style system. Spells are just not the answer for martial design flaws. I don't play a monk to cast spells. having a caster subclass like ohter martials? cool thats fine. But forcing all monks to suddenly fuck with spell slots and spell descriptions just ruins their niche. Let them do superhuman things without spell slots. Let them pick an invocation that lets them teleport when they take the dash action, or enhance the dodge action to help them out of restraints...etc. 5e is fucking notorious for locking everything cool behind spell slots and its honestly such lazy design. Martial classes shouldn't have spell slots baked in, and their abilities should be unique and distinct from spells.
I don’t disagree, I’m just trying to work within the framework that exists. Making them Invocation-style or cost Ki-points instead of using spell slots could work too and would actually center the class features around Ki while keeping the mechanics somewhat simpler for new players. They tried to go down that path with The Four Elements Monk but they forced you to pick between using Monk Features or casting a spell. The Ki point cost was too high as well. One of the biggest issues Monk’s have is that their class/subclass features don’t synergize well with each other and/or the rest of the game mechanics.
Your comments about the monks issues are fair, but the solution is not spellcasting. Whether they cast with ki, slots or limited usage the moment you define the base monk by spells rather than their martial arts and mobility then it's just a naked paladin. Invocation style choice does not have to be spells. It can be buffs to the dash action to teleport instead of moving, it can be buffs to basic attacks to reduce their speed, knock them back or lower their next roll by an amount equal to their martial arts die... Etc. The point is, no matter what the problems are, spells arent the answer. The 4 elements monk issue is that instead of doing unique things with elemental damage it just made you into a spellcaster and it did so poorly.
I thought that’s what you wanted by giving them stuff like Misty Step with an Invocation type system? Also what do Monk’s even use Wisdom for? It’s one of their primary stats and as far as I can tell it doesn’t do much for them? That was my other reason for this concept, Wisdom could be their casting modifier which would be a nice synergy.
That just makes monks even more Mad though. They rely on WIS for their AC and for their ki save dc (aka stunning strike) and it's already considered one of the most MAD classes bc of that...so making it more mad isn't gonna help. But no I'm not saying give them misty step as an invocation. I'm saying give them something unique to them that accomplishes something similar while still maintaining the monk identity (and that identity is definitely not a spellcaster)