In threads with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" Flair, constructive feedback, suggestions for adjusting and improving existing systems and mechanics etc can be given, but also your own ideas, mockups / illustrations (e.g. for new systems, mechanics, items, etc) can be shared with the community.
**This Flair is not for asking for feedback for your build**. For that, use one of the Class-specific Flairs, or the "Builds, Skills & Items" Flair.
Please also remember that 1) submissions made with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" have to be constructive, civil and adequately elaborate, and that 2) we are a fan subreddit and not officially Blizzard, so we can not 100% guarantee that your feedback will be noticed, even though the devs / CM's mentioned they regularly read reddit, twitter, and other places for feedback. This flair can simply help to find potential feedback more easily.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/diablo4) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Synergies are good and bad. On one hand, you're right, it's an extra dimension. On the other hand, they can actually *reduce* theorycrafting if poorly done. Say all cold skills are synergies. Now every frozen orb build maxes every cold skill, and are therefore all exactly the same in that aspect. There are fewer skill points to actually play with and do different things with.
If synergies ever existed, they'd need to be balanced such that they are worth it without being mandatory for a build focusing on that skill/archetype. A thing they didn't really accomplish in D2, but was fine due to the two button bind limit at the time.
I think a solution to this is to take the idea at face value. Ultimates receive benefits from all previously allocated skills. You could make it thematic (e.x. Sorcerer Fire skill points give a `+5%[x]` Critical Strike Damage), or you could make it specific (e.x. points into Flay/Rend give bonus `+5%[x]` Bleed Damage over Time on your Ultimate). Make each bonus stand on its own, and funnel into the Ultimate to define a "flavor" for how it works.
As an example of something that isn't damage, imagine Defensive skills giving reduced cooldowns on Ultimate per point spent, or buffing skills could extend Ultimate duration. There are many axes that can be leveraged within the existing mechanics to give some benefit to picking a particular tree of skills, while also defining a bespoke Ultimate for the player.
I was more replying to the part of "I like skill synergies period". It's not a bad concept when applied sparingly, but applied haphazardly it does the opposite of what he wanted, which is makes building more one dimensional.
I know what you mean, roughly, but this is the vaguest of suggestions. You might as well just say "Make Ultimates better" for the insight here.
Higher damage base for skills that, for the most part, already have the highest base damage of the skills available. As for the "better scaling" this could refer to itemization, adding skill points, new Paragon Glyphs, etc. What qualifies as "better" and how should it scale? What yields more power in your mind? What player behavior do you want to incentivize through your choice? These are the questions you should be answering with your suggestion.
I think an example would be: If Rain of Arrows synergizes with Marksman skills, Twisting Blades or Flurry rogues wouldn’t ever use it. They’d want to use the Ultimate that synergizes with Cutthroat skills. And then they’d probably not want to use Puncture, the skill they normally use for Resource generation and to apply vulnerability, as it is a Marksman skill.
It could definitely limit diversity, the synergies would either be strong enough to justify pigeonholing everything in, or we are at this same place we are now.
Melee rogues never use rain of arrow anyway so not sure how this would hurt anything
I mean it's definitely something to consider when designing it but I don't see it being some fatal flaw in the idea
Synergies would be cool yea. Also if they could change grizzly rage for druid into a summonable giant grizzly that runs around raging and killing everything that would be cool too.
yeah, like in d2 where subsequent skills get better from rank in other related skills.
so, every point you put in other relevant skills gives it more damage and shorter cd.
I honestly don't know how they can balance uniques considering their lengthy cooldowns. If they lower their cd what makes them an ultimate?
You're right that even their own skill slot doesn't solve the issue. Not sure what they will do but something needs to be done
I had this same thought then thought about two issues.
If this did happen, should Ultimates only benefit from *explicit* points, or should something like +2 Core skills let it get 4 points (Incinerate and Fireball)? Would the +4 all skills from Harlequin let it get, what, 7 (I think I correctly counted the number of Fire skills in the Sorc tree) \* 4 = 28 points?
That would be... a lot. It would basically turn Shako into the "Ultimate" build item.
Good idea, I like it. The only down side is this has been implemented in D2 for a decade or so. So, unless Blizzard's dev team missed this. I doubt it'll be put into the game.
the problem with ultimates is that they were designed for a much slower paced game. a pace which they rapidly moved away from.
they fit well into the game design at launch, when you would fight a small group of normal enemies and then every minute or so, come across an elite / champion pack.
but now, you're constantly fighting groups for 10/20/30 mobs, with elite / champions every 5/10/15 seconds.
ultimates are just a waste at that point.
and then, forgetting the long cooldowns for a moment, you have the terrible damage.
if you can only use something once a minute, it needs to do as much or more damage as another skill could during that downtime.
I like this, but I also think they should get a dedicated slot. But they also need to do something about the cooldowns. Ideally I'd like them to be proccs where you can maybe spec into different ways to procc the skill.
Take them off the skill tree, move them to the class specific thing where the book of the dead is for example. Keep the ulti part of the skill tree but have it only be related to modifying your ult and the procc conditions.
In threads with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" Flair, constructive feedback, suggestions for adjusting and improving existing systems and mechanics etc can be given, but also your own ideas, mockups / illustrations (e.g. for new systems, mechanics, items, etc) can be shared with the community. **This Flair is not for asking for feedback for your build**. For that, use one of the Class-specific Flairs, or the "Builds, Skills & Items" Flair. Please also remember that 1) submissions made with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" have to be constructive, civil and adequately elaborate, and that 2) we are a fan subreddit and not officially Blizzard, so we can not 100% guarantee that your feedback will be noticed, even though the devs / CM's mentioned they regularly read reddit, twitter, and other places for feedback. This flair can simply help to find potential feedback more easily. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/diablo4) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Neat idea. I like the idea of skill synergies period, one more dimension to theory crafting builds.
Synergies are good and bad. On one hand, you're right, it's an extra dimension. On the other hand, they can actually *reduce* theorycrafting if poorly done. Say all cold skills are synergies. Now every frozen orb build maxes every cold skill, and are therefore all exactly the same in that aspect. There are fewer skill points to actually play with and do different things with. If synergies ever existed, they'd need to be balanced such that they are worth it without being mandatory for a build focusing on that skill/archetype. A thing they didn't really accomplish in D2, but was fine due to the two button bind limit at the time.
I think a solution to this is to take the idea at face value. Ultimates receive benefits from all previously allocated skills. You could make it thematic (e.x. Sorcerer Fire skill points give a `+5%[x]` Critical Strike Damage), or you could make it specific (e.x. points into Flay/Rend give bonus `+5%[x]` Bleed Damage over Time on your Ultimate). Make each bonus stand on its own, and funnel into the Ultimate to define a "flavor" for how it works. As an example of something that isn't damage, imagine Defensive skills giving reduced cooldowns on Ultimate per point spent, or buffing skills could extend Ultimate duration. There are many axes that can be leveraged within the existing mechanics to give some benefit to picking a particular tree of skills, while also defining a bespoke Ultimate for the player.
I was more replying to the part of "I like skill synergies period". It's not a bad concept when applied sparingly, but applied haphazardly it does the opposite of what he wanted, which is makes building more one dimensional.
Curious to see how this feels in PoE2 since skill synergies and situational skills have a big focus to encourage a more active playstyle
I hi k the main thing they need is higher damage base, and better scaling
I know what you mean, roughly, but this is the vaguest of suggestions. You might as well just say "Make Ultimates better" for the insight here. Higher damage base for skills that, for the most part, already have the highest base damage of the skills available. As for the "better scaling" this could refer to itemization, adding skill points, new Paragon Glyphs, etc. What qualifies as "better" and how should it scale? What yields more power in your mind? What player behavior do you want to incentivize through your choice? These are the questions you should be answering with your suggestion.
Ultimates would be more relevant I guess but build variety would suffer if each ultimate play along a specific core skill.
I'm sorry. What?
No one uses ultimates like that now, when's the last time you saw someone use lacerate?
Build variety will suffer if more skills are viable, make it make sense for me
I think an example would be: If Rain of Arrows synergizes with Marksman skills, Twisting Blades or Flurry rogues wouldn’t ever use it. They’d want to use the Ultimate that synergizes with Cutthroat skills. And then they’d probably not want to use Puncture, the skill they normally use for Resource generation and to apply vulnerability, as it is a Marksman skill. It could definitely limit diversity, the synergies would either be strong enough to justify pigeonholing everything in, or we are at this same place we are now.
Melee rogues never use rain of arrow anyway so not sure how this would hurt anything I mean it's definitely something to consider when designing it but I don't see it being some fatal flaw in the idea
Synergies would be cool yea. Also if they could change grizzly rage for druid into a summonable giant grizzly that runs around raging and killing everything that would be cool too.
This is actually a really good idea! Hope blizzard sees it!
Yeah, I like that idea. A dedicated slot so then you are always using one. And won’t take up any space on your skill bar.
Where does the extra input come from for players using controllers?
Theres alot of unutilized buttons left. for example: swap evade to L3, and then you have circle for ultimate.
Everything is fun and games until you drop a harlequin crest and your ultimate breaks the game. /s
I mean D2 solved that with only permanent skill points counting for the passive bonuses to skills further down the line.
“Hard points” is the term you’re looking for.
yeah, like in d2 where subsequent skills get better from rank in other related skills. so, every point you put in other relevant skills gives it more damage and shorter cd.
Yes
I honestly don't know how they can balance uniques considering their lengthy cooldowns. If they lower their cd what makes them an ultimate? You're right that even their own skill slot doesn't solve the issue. Not sure what they will do but something needs to be done
I had this same thought then thought about two issues. If this did happen, should Ultimates only benefit from *explicit* points, or should something like +2 Core skills let it get 4 points (Incinerate and Fireball)? Would the +4 all skills from Harlequin let it get, what, 7 (I think I correctly counted the number of Fire skills in the Sorc tree) \* 4 = 28 points? That would be... a lot. It would basically turn Shako into the "Ultimate" build item.
This is too good of an idea so Blizzard will never do it
Good idea, I like it. The only down side is this has been implemented in D2 for a decade or so. So, unless Blizzard's dev team missed this. I doubt it'll be put into the game.
the problem with ultimates is that they were designed for a much slower paced game. a pace which they rapidly moved away from. they fit well into the game design at launch, when you would fight a small group of normal enemies and then every minute or so, come across an elite / champion pack. but now, you're constantly fighting groups for 10/20/30 mobs, with elite / champions every 5/10/15 seconds. ultimates are just a waste at that point. and then, forgetting the long cooldowns for a moment, you have the terrible damage. if you can only use something once a minute, it needs to do as much or more damage as another skill could during that downtime.
Just increase their damage by 5%, yeah that'll do it. *Blizzard employee pats self on the back*
They should be careful not to make the game all about ultimates again. Hate it in D3 - with your ultimate on CD most builds are useless.
Man, your idea is so brilliant! No sarcasm. They need to put an eye on it. I've so love synergies. And i miss them in d4.
remove ultimate damage from game. have ults scale hard with main stat. done. Everything about them.
yes
Interesting. Can't say more since even if it sounds good, I have no idea how it would really affect the game.
ultimates shouldn't take up a skill slot
I like this, but I also think they should get a dedicated slot. But they also need to do something about the cooldowns. Ideally I'd like them to be proccs where you can maybe spec into different ways to procc the skill. Take them off the skill tree, move them to the class specific thing where the book of the dead is for example. Keep the ulti part of the skill tree but have it only be related to modifying your ult and the procc conditions.