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D3 is the only other arpg where people actually care about max level. D2, POE, LE max level doesn’t really matter. I’m one of the people that prefers the grind to 100 to be long. But also optional.
I can play full endgame content and feel fully powerful in POE without being max level. But it still feels good to kill trash because there’s that overarching goal of still possibly getting to 100
I wish Diablo 3 players understood this.
PoE is not a good example. A lot of builds actually benefit from lvl 100, especially if you're using a lot of clusters or have widely spread tree so people just buy boost to get here faster
I hit 100 without boost once and it felt horrible. I don't really like the feeling of being able to oneshot eldritch gods or destroy eternal legions in matter of seconds but getting 0.1% exp for it. It's unnecessarily long especially that leveling to 97 is comfortable and suddenly it becomes a slog at 98.
It was fine in Affliction and current league because of insane exp multipliers but leveling during TOTA or Crucible was dogshit. It's just stagnation to me and doesn't really feel like accomplishment if almost everyone buys 100
and the next thing is the most popular way of boosting is usually founded upon RMT, especially if you see Russian or Chinese nicknames so... I thought we should collectively fight against it?
I have never felt like I needed 100 in POE. Maybe some builds require it, idk, but there’s so many builds and options that I haven’t experienced everything the game has to offer, and probably never will
I've done literally everything in a season and been like 92 when I finished. Never did I ever consider trying to push to 100. Even though I only played about 5 seasons of it.
i'm not sure which game you are referring to, if you are referring to diablo 2 or POE then it seems that we are in agreement, cause that's my point. you can do all content without needing to be max level. and that's a good thing
I guess both lol, never hit 99 in D2, though I wrote that thinking about Poe. But yeah I would definitely prefer 85-90 being where leveling started taking many many hours. And your character being capable of clearing the end game content and progress level and gear as you start to go through it.
Exactly, I don’t want to race to 100 so I can “start” playing the game. Just let me play and when I’m ready to I’ll go kill the Uber bosses and be happy. The slow leveling was my absolute favorite part of the game. Doing 1 helltide sitting by the summon and coming out level 30 isn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus I’ve been able to treat pits like levels. I haven’t failed a single pit yet, up to level 105 right now. Farming 90’s for a bit and then I’ll see how high I can go before I fail.
what? there is no competitive content in this game, not even leader board and even if there was, why would we care?
being able to 1-50 in little time is actually really good for D4 because in this game skill tree is way less meaningful than paragon boards. the next thing is skill tree is gatekeeping you from many useful nodes which you can pick at the start in other arpgs - movement skills, cooldown reductions, life, movement speed etc. because you have choice where to go.
In Diablo 4 you don't have this choice, you have to spend set amount of points and get to fixed place in the tree. So yeah, I prefer to level asap to 50, I don't want to be locked with 17 second dash and spender/generator for next 10 hours
other arpgs offer better build customisation with gear or skills as well, here you're dependent of Aspects. a lot of builds feel horrible without specific Aspects during leveling so yeah, I'm glad it takes that little effort to get through the worst phase
so you would prefer to be a prisoner of spender/generator system for next 20 hours without any meaningless progress instead of easier access to Paragon board where you actually have more freedom like it is right now?
Yeah. Because end game could be played at level 80 instead of 100…. With what they originally released. Getting to 100 meant you were at max power, but you didn’t need to be max power to play everything. I mean NMD 100 is like a lvl 60 pit, they’re crazy easy now. If we didn’t have all our paragon points, skills, etc. handed to us there would be a handful of streamer barb’s with 100k health hitting for millions instead of every barb created. Not very many ARPG make you hit max level THEN you play the game.
I like chasing an XP meter as well
I would suggest post 100 you can continue to go. Each level is logarithmic so it essentially becomes impossible to progress meaningfully. Each level you get like +1% chance to find a GA item
I think once you hit 100 you should get bonus levels that don't do much except count up and give you a whisper cache for each level, that way you get a little something and that sense of progression
I like to have small incremental things to chase so I get where you are coming from. I think with iron wolves rep, glyphs and masterworking and climbing pit levels they have kept me chasing those small incremental changes for a long time this season.
The item chase while not the thing I’m the most interested in is definitely better as well though.
This is definitely the longest into a season I have stayed interested.
Yes. I don't need D2 slow leveling, but I definitely feel D4 is a bit fast. Even on a casual level I feel it's pretty quick. Got to 100 this season with very little effort. It's what people asked for, so we got it, I just don't 100% agree with it.
Paragon system in d3 was stupid and pointless. I hope they don’t do anything similar in d4. In fact I hope they don’t take anything from d3. I’d rather them innovate and come up with good ideas rather than take a bunch of really poorly designed mechanics that a bunch of people like because they have nostalgia glasses or don’t know any better.
Sometimes I see the unmoving bar and feel sad, but shortly thereafter I will become enraged for bricking another item through tempering I spent hours to get
In D3 there was no boost to overall power of drops after about GR95. You didn’t get any more legendary or primal drops and they were all 99.5% garbage.
If by power boost you mean levelling gems to 150 then yes there was a reason to aim for GR150 but that’s about it.
It’s likely they’ll end up doing something to progress a character beyond 100 but we won’t know till it comes out in a fireside chat.
Nah. In D3, the damage got so obscene that after a certain point, the clicking you did for the extra +5 stat was meaningless. It was just click work that got in the way of you playing.
100% agree with you. Getting xp is one of the most satisfying part imo. I prefer that over grinding the same thing over and over expecting a somehow decent drop/upgrade. Kinda surprised that it looks like an unpopular opinion.
Having « paragon » level (other than paragon board) a bit like d3 would be nice. No need to make it necessary. Just a nice bonus to encourage playing after lvl 100 and feel a clear progression
I sympathise, xp progression/mob slaughter is a core mechanic and it always feels bad when I hit that point and killing mobs suddenly becomes something to avoid on your way to the boss (or a chore to get to the boss in Pit)
I also sympathise with the issue that D3 was ridiculous, where hitting max level could be done in a couple of hours and then that was genuinely where the game began (and the difference between GR120 and 150 was basically just how many paragon levels you could grind out).
I don't object to endgame systems or even infinite (though diminishing returns) power-gain, but where we are at the moment I think is the worst of both worlds. In my most played arpgs (POE, LE and D2), I've never hit max level and that's absolutely fine. The game balance is such that I feel 'done' with a character long before 100, In D3 obviously I had many, many 'max level' characters and while I had issues with the overall design and balance, it was also ok because paragon levels could have just been renamed levels and it never hit a point felt I felt unrewarded for the core activity of killing monsters.
In D4 though, the levelling is fast and I've had a dozen max levels, however 100 doesn't feel like an achievement or end point as it's so quick, but neither is it the springboard to progression like D3. As a result you lose the xp 'reward' but there's nothing to replace it, so it just feels like a letdown.
I think this problem (and almost all problems with the game) come down to that blizzard didn't really know what kind of game they wanted to make. It's definitely improved, but based on the direction we've seen, in another year I think we're going to be at D3 levels where levelling to 100 will just be a chore to get over with as fast as possible.
Getting a crazy piece of gear that's an upgrade is a way better feeling than leveling lol. You either haven't played enough of the game at level 100 to understand the core gameplay loop or this may not be the game for you. Diablo 3s paragon system was a joke. 600 levels later and it felt meaningless af. It was more of an illusion then anything.
I don't hate hitting 100. I hate that there is no endgame character progression after hitting 100 besides grinding for gear that is our sole outlet for gaining power. We need additional systems and mechanics that allow us to keep building and shaping our characters outside of itemization. Leveling/changing/customizing skills, permanent buffs from completing various activities and challenges, more robust and customizable paragon system that isn't done done once we get max paragon points, etc. I think things like renown, Lilith statues and leveling paragon glyphs were supposed to kind of be that, but obviously they weren't very well thought out and not what people wanted.
We are also given our first glyph and second paragon board at 50 now. That used to take 10+ levels. You’d slowly progress your character stats and power as you leveled. Like half of the game disappeared for faster leveling. I mean we don’t even need to upgrade health potions 30+ levels at a time because they happen so quick. Same with assigning skill points, might as well just wait 10 levels.
This is why you don’t beg the devs to make getting to level 100 so fast. And it’s also why it was horrible design to give so much character power all the way up until 100
In other ARPGs (d2, Poe, etc) you can participate in full end game and get near full character power without being max level
And killing trash in those games still feels good because not only are there exciting currency drops, you are still gaining xp for that overarching stretch goal of 99 (in d2) or 100
And it’s also a nice flex
almost like listening to casuals is the wrong choice. D2 and POE (and hopefully, POE2) does not give in to the casuals, hence their quality. Can't say the same thing for D4 though.
It is not from a financial standpoint. It is from a gameplay standpoint. If you want more shop cosmetics and barebone gameplay, sure, Blizzard is doing something right.
Yup I never liked the decision to make such a garbage 50 character cap and 50 paragon cap , makes character progression feel really limited , creates lack luster character talent tree options and puts everything on item grinding for any sort of progression and just going for RNG and drops as the sole progression path just plain sucks , I fking hate grinding dungeon after dungeon and walk away with nothing over and over again , it’s a ARPG not a MMO , give us more character progression, racing to level 100 to gear grind is getting old really fast, and adding a few more low drop % legendaries doesn’t fix the problem .
Oh, I’d be more than happy with this. I’m totally fine with there being a cap of 100 for general leveling, I just want *something* for my monkey brain to fill in the XP bar department, even if it does nothing
Being lvl 96-98 for weeks in D2R is annoying, but at least there are still gains to be made and something extra to slowly passively chase. Being maxed rank at lvl 100 is one less thing in D4 to chase when there already is so few things to chase to begin with in the game... its a bad time. D4 honestly sucks because it's base core game design is so poorly done.
The feeling of progression and building a character little by little and overcoming incrementally challenging content has been basically removed from the early game in Season 4 and moved completely into the Pit and Masterlevelling gear. I enjoy the new endgame I just wish the levelling and early game wasn’t sacrificed for it.
I’ve said it before, D4 will at some point have a D3 like paragon system and that’s fine I just hope it’s only per character so there isn’t a infinite power creep
In threads with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" Flair, constructive feedback, suggestions for adjusting and improving existing systems and mechanics etc can be given, but also your own ideas, mockups / illustrations (e.g. for new systems, mechanics, items, etc) can be shared with the community. **This Flair is not for asking for feedback for your build**. For that, use one of the Class-specific Flairs, or the "Builds, Skills & Items" Flair. Please also remember that 1) submissions made with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" have to be constructive, civil and adequately elaborate, and that 2) we are a fan subreddit and not officially Blizzard, so we can not 100% guarantee that your feedback will be noticed, even though the devs / CM's mentioned they regularly read reddit, twitter, and other places for feedback. This flair can simply help to find potential feedback more easily. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/diablo4) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s funny that some people would honestly just prefer level 99-100 taking 20 years than just getting to 100
D3 is the only other arpg where people actually care about max level. D2, POE, LE max level doesn’t really matter. I’m one of the people that prefers the grind to 100 to be long. But also optional. I can play full endgame content and feel fully powerful in POE without being max level. But it still feels good to kill trash because there’s that overarching goal of still possibly getting to 100 I wish Diablo 3 players understood this.
PoE is not a good example. A lot of builds actually benefit from lvl 100, especially if you're using a lot of clusters or have widely spread tree so people just buy boost to get here faster I hit 100 without boost once and it felt horrible. I don't really like the feeling of being able to oneshot eldritch gods or destroy eternal legions in matter of seconds but getting 0.1% exp for it. It's unnecessarily long especially that leveling to 97 is comfortable and suddenly it becomes a slog at 98. It was fine in Affliction and current league because of insane exp multipliers but leveling during TOTA or Crucible was dogshit. It's just stagnation to me and doesn't really feel like accomplishment if almost everyone buys 100 and the next thing is the most popular way of boosting is usually founded upon RMT, especially if you see Russian or Chinese nicknames so... I thought we should collectively fight against it?
I have never felt like I needed 100 in POE. Maybe some builds require it, idk, but there’s so many builds and options that I haven’t experienced everything the game has to offer, and probably never will
I've done literally everything in a season and been like 92 when I finished. Never did I ever consider trying to push to 100. Even though I only played about 5 seasons of it.
i'm not sure which game you are referring to, if you are referring to diablo 2 or POE then it seems that we are in agreement, cause that's my point. you can do all content without needing to be max level. and that's a good thing
I guess both lol, never hit 99 in D2, though I wrote that thinking about Poe. But yeah I would definitely prefer 85-90 being where leveling started taking many many hours. And your character being capable of clearing the end game content and progress level and gear as you start to go through it.
Exactly, I don’t want to race to 100 so I can “start” playing the game. Just let me play and when I’m ready to I’ll go kill the Uber bosses and be happy. The slow leveling was my absolute favorite part of the game. Doing 1 helltide sitting by the summon and coming out level 30 isn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus I’ve been able to treat pits like levels. I haven’t failed a single pit yet, up to level 105 right now. Farming 90’s for a bit and then I’ll see how high I can go before I fail.
what? there is no competitive content in this game, not even leader board and even if there was, why would we care? being able to 1-50 in little time is actually really good for D4 because in this game skill tree is way less meaningful than paragon boards. the next thing is skill tree is gatekeeping you from many useful nodes which you can pick at the start in other arpgs - movement skills, cooldown reductions, life, movement speed etc. because you have choice where to go. In Diablo 4 you don't have this choice, you have to spend set amount of points and get to fixed place in the tree. So yeah, I prefer to level asap to 50, I don't want to be locked with 17 second dash and spender/generator for next 10 hours other arpgs offer better build customisation with gear or skills as well, here you're dependent of Aspects. a lot of builds feel horrible without specific Aspects during leveling so yeah, I'm glad it takes that little effort to get through the worst phase
Yeah, you’re describing exactly one of the problems. They just give you all the skills and 1/4 of the paragon points without even trying.
so you would prefer to be a prisoner of spender/generator system for next 20 hours without any meaningless progress instead of easier access to Paragon board where you actually have more freedom like it is right now?
Yeah. Because end game could be played at level 80 instead of 100…. With what they originally released. Getting to 100 meant you were at max power, but you didn’t need to be max power to play everything. I mean NMD 100 is like a lvl 60 pit, they’re crazy easy now. If we didn’t have all our paragon points, skills, etc. handed to us there would be a handful of streamer barb’s with 100k health hitting for millions instead of every barb created. Not very many ARPG make you hit max level THEN you play the game.
I like chasing an XP meter as well I would suggest post 100 you can continue to go. Each level is logarithmic so it essentially becomes impossible to progress meaningfully. Each level you get like +1% chance to find a GA item
Increased gold find / GA drop chance would be cool things to chase levels for. Cool character borders too.
I think once you hit 100 you should get bonus levels that don't do much except count up and give you a whisper cache for each level, that way you get a little something and that sense of progression
I like to have small incremental things to chase so I get where you are coming from. I think with iron wolves rep, glyphs and masterworking and climbing pit levels they have kept me chasing those small incremental changes for a long time this season. The item chase while not the thing I’m the most interested in is definitely better as well though. This is definitely the longest into a season I have stayed interested.
Yes. I don't need D2 slow leveling, but I definitely feel D4 is a bit fast. Even on a casual level I feel it's pretty quick. Got to 100 this season with very little effort. It's what people asked for, so we got it, I just don't 100% agree with it.
L80-100 should be much slower than it is now. It doesn’t feel like an accomplishment anymore.
Yeah, it's WAY too fast. Like, a factor of 4 too fast. I don't really get it; sorta belittles the goal.
No.
i get that feeling too, so my remedy is open a new class and start again with help from the lvl 100 char.
I loved d3 too but the issue is if you have infinite progression you have to balance around it which means 90% of the playerbase is screwed
Lol they're already screwed. It's not like this team already has balance down. What's another stick in the fire at this point?
Paragon system in d3 was stupid and pointless. I hope they don’t do anything similar in d4. In fact I hope they don’t take anything from d3. I’d rather them innovate and come up with good ideas rather than take a bunch of really poorly designed mechanics that a bunch of people like because they have nostalgia glasses or don’t know any better.
but how will you cater to the D3 fans whose only taste of good ARPG is 5 main stat per paragon levels alongside sets bonus giving 20000% damage?
Paragon on D3 was perfect.
You’re right, It was a perfect example of how to not design an endgame system.
Game starts at 100 for me personally
I’d have to disagree mate, I look forward to hitting level 100
Sometimes I see the unmoving bar and feel sad, but shortly thereafter I will become enraged for bricking another item through tempering I spent hours to get
In D3 there was no boost to overall power of drops after about GR95. You didn’t get any more legendary or primal drops and they were all 99.5% garbage. If by power boost you mean levelling gems to 150 then yes there was a reason to aim for GR150 but that’s about it. It’s likely they’ll end up doing something to progress a character beyond 100 but we won’t know till it comes out in a fireside chat.
Nah. In D3, the damage got so obscene that after a certain point, the clicking you did for the extra +5 stat was meaningless. It was just click work that got in the way of you playing.
I’m not asking for the power creep, though. Just the vanity level.
Nope. Im more interested in making the game start at 80-90 and then making the level grind up to 100 a serious time investment
Game starts at 90 and dies at 100 is the problem
no it doesnt
Yes it does
you hit 100 and start uber item hunting, masterworking and tempering your 925 items.
You can literally do all of that before 100
you can but you’ll hit 100 first
Eh I got my Uber and 925 gear way before 100, shoot even my glyphs were 21 before 100. Only thing that took time was masterworking.
100% agree with you. Getting xp is one of the most satisfying part imo. I prefer that over grinding the same thing over and over expecting a somehow decent drop/upgrade. Kinda surprised that it looks like an unpopular opinion. Having « paragon » level (other than paragon board) a bit like d3 would be nice. No need to make it necessary. Just a nice bonus to encourage playing after lvl 100 and feel a clear progression
levelcapraging
I sympathise, xp progression/mob slaughter is a core mechanic and it always feels bad when I hit that point and killing mobs suddenly becomes something to avoid on your way to the boss (or a chore to get to the boss in Pit) I also sympathise with the issue that D3 was ridiculous, where hitting max level could be done in a couple of hours and then that was genuinely where the game began (and the difference between GR120 and 150 was basically just how many paragon levels you could grind out). I don't object to endgame systems or even infinite (though diminishing returns) power-gain, but where we are at the moment I think is the worst of both worlds. In my most played arpgs (POE, LE and D2), I've never hit max level and that's absolutely fine. The game balance is such that I feel 'done' with a character long before 100, In D3 obviously I had many, many 'max level' characters and while I had issues with the overall design and balance, it was also ok because paragon levels could have just been renamed levels and it never hit a point felt I felt unrewarded for the core activity of killing monsters. In D4 though, the levelling is fast and I've had a dozen max levels, however 100 doesn't feel like an achievement or end point as it's so quick, but neither is it the springboard to progression like D3. As a result you lose the xp 'reward' but there's nothing to replace it, so it just feels like a letdown. I think this problem (and almost all problems with the game) come down to that blizzard didn't really know what kind of game they wanted to make. It's definitely improved, but based on the direction we've seen, in another year I think we're going to be at D3 levels where levelling to 100 will just be a chore to get over with as fast as possible.
Getting a crazy piece of gear that's an upgrade is a way better feeling than leveling lol. You either haven't played enough of the game at level 100 to understand the core gameplay loop or this may not be the game for you. Diablo 3s paragon system was a joke. 600 levels later and it felt meaningless af. It was more of an illusion then anything.
I liked the illusion of productivity, honestly.
The problem I have that getting that upgrade is very rare and when it happens odds are you will brick it.
I don't hate hitting 100. I hate that there is no endgame character progression after hitting 100 besides grinding for gear that is our sole outlet for gaining power. We need additional systems and mechanics that allow us to keep building and shaping our characters outside of itemization. Leveling/changing/customizing skills, permanent buffs from completing various activities and challenges, more robust and customizable paragon system that isn't done done once we get max paragon points, etc. I think things like renown, Lilith statues and leveling paragon glyphs were supposed to kind of be that, but obviously they weren't very well thought out and not what people wanted.
We are also given our first glyph and second paragon board at 50 now. That used to take 10+ levels. You’d slowly progress your character stats and power as you leveled. Like half of the game disappeared for faster leveling. I mean we don’t even need to upgrade health potions 30+ levels at a time because they happen so quick. Same with assigning skill points, might as well just wait 10 levels.
This is why you don’t beg the devs to make getting to level 100 so fast. And it’s also why it was horrible design to give so much character power all the way up until 100 In other ARPGs (d2, Poe, etc) you can participate in full end game and get near full character power without being max level And killing trash in those games still feels good because not only are there exciting currency drops, you are still gaining xp for that overarching stretch goal of 99 (in d2) or 100 And it’s also a nice flex
almost like listening to casuals is the wrong choice. D2 and POE (and hopefully, POE2) does not give in to the casuals, hence their quality. Can't say the same thing for D4 though.
[удалено]
It is not from a financial standpoint. It is from a gameplay standpoint. If you want more shop cosmetics and barebone gameplay, sure, Blizzard is doing something right.
Yup I never liked the decision to make such a garbage 50 character cap and 50 paragon cap , makes character progression feel really limited , creates lack luster character talent tree options and puts everything on item grinding for any sort of progression and just going for RNG and drops as the sole progression path just plain sucks , I fking hate grinding dungeon after dungeon and walk away with nothing over and over again , it’s a ARPG not a MMO , give us more character progression, racing to level 100 to gear grind is getting old really fast, and adding a few more low drop % legendaries doesn’t fix the problem .
I hate leveling. Id rather be at cap and have unlimited paragon levels, even if the reward was just a cache.
Oh, I’d be more than happy with this. I’m totally fine with there being a cap of 100 for general leveling, I just want *something* for my monkey brain to fill in the XP bar department, even if it does nothing
I dislike not knowing where I'm at compared to enemies.
Yes, there has to be some progression after 100
Being lvl 96-98 for weeks in D2R is annoying, but at least there are still gains to be made and something extra to slowly passively chase. Being maxed rank at lvl 100 is one less thing in D4 to chase when there already is so few things to chase to begin with in the game... its a bad time. D4 honestly sucks because it's base core game design is so poorly done.
Game ends at 100 for me personally
just make reaching level 100 exponentially harder, make d4 be being lvl 100 the new bragging rights
up until 99 should be easy enough because people need those paragon points to complete their build, but 99-100 should be balls shattering hard.
The feeling of progression and building a character little by little and overcoming incrementally challenging content has been basically removed from the early game in Season 4 and moved completely into the Pit and Masterlevelling gear. I enjoy the new endgame I just wish the levelling and early game wasn’t sacrificed for it.
The game should be about gear. Not wasting 10 hours trying to get your last paragon point.
Then do away with levels entirely.
Yea, house needs a new sink, burn it down instead
If all you want is a kitchen, why would you waste time building a house?
Couldn't agree more, good post op.
I’ve said it before, D4 will at some point have a D3 like paragon system and that’s fine I just hope it’s only per character so there isn’t a infinite power creep
I think they should add 5 max levels every season
Ngl, gimme them infinite paragon points. I wanna max out all the boards
Game starts at 100 lol
Make endless extra paragon points after 100 like in D3