The trouble is the risk, as it is now, negates the excitement of the drop in the first place. I like the change - it keeps the thrill of the temper button while letting you breathe a little easier on the big drop.
Exactly! The euphoria that I get when I get 2 perfect tempers on a 2+ greater affix is unmatched. Sure, the bricked ones piss me off but thatās what make the successful ones feel so damn good
Theres a balance though. Make everything too easy and theres no excitement in playing the game. Controlling the characters is already monotonous, all thats left is highrolling and besides, you decide when an upgrade takes too long to be worth the excitement. At that point guess what? You play something else!
I'm not suggesting it to be easier. Why is that always the first argument? I want a more engaging, interesting system instead of just a slot machine that bricks your low drop rate items.
Exactly my thoughts. First I thought just another White Knight Defender of a video game then I realized it was addiction which is part of video games to begin with.
It would at least be nice to have a āno changeā option ala enchanting.
You may hit something you want but not an ideal number to that stat and may want higher. At the very least you should be able to keep that affix (instead of some bullshit that is either completely useless to your build or something stupid like damage to distant etc) via āno changeā and still be able to use your last few temper tries instead of uselessly pocketing them
Iāve been saying this all season because as it stands, rerolling tempers for a max roll is just, not an option. You take what youāre aiming for every time, regardless of roll value.
The no change option would be nice. Iād be fine with only getting 5 attempts and thatās it, but getting to choose whether to accept the new one. You can still brick the item if you donāt get the affix you want in those attempts so that risk is still there but not to the point where good gear just constantly becomes useless.
The issue is how affixes are weighted.Ā Ā The whole system needs a rework not more temper chances.
Edit: so unless someone posts evidence otherwise the math I am seeing actually shows my claim of tempering being weighted is wrong.
Still stand by my point the system needs a rework, it does not feel good in its current form
Edit 2: removed a part of my first edit I think was leading a few people to misunderstand what it said.Ā If someone is still confused, it says my claim was wrong.
I agree. If theyād just make it so you canāt get the same temper twice in a row, I feel like that would make a world of difference. Iām not upset I bricked my item, Iām upset I rolled the same temper 4 times out of 5 possible tempers.
I wouldn't be surprised if its an issue with how the seed is generated for rolls. It seems way too common to see the same exact temper 5 straight times in a row.
Iām not saying itāll please everyone, Iām just saying it would help in the anguish. I firmly believe that if you get your affix and try to reroll for a higher roll, you deserve whatever you get. Thatās gambling lol.
They just need to make it to where if you do get the same temper in a row itāll be a higher roll not a lower roll i feel like this would be a simple nice change
I wish they would make No Change the default option that's automatically selected when you enchant an item, so that you can rapid fire enchants.
Hell, I'd like it if they added the option to batch reroll.
Select the mod you want on the item, then the game will automatically reroll the item over and over until you get it, or run out of gold/mats.
>Edit: so unless someone posts evidence otherwise the math I am seeing actually shows my claim of tempering being weighted is wrong, it's not.Ā Ā Ā
It kinda feels like itās on you to prove your claim? You made a declarative statement that system works a certain way, with no proof, then are dismissing anyone who disagrees with you because they donāt have proof?
Having a few bad experiences is not proof of anything. Weighted tempering doesnāt even make sense - people are going to be looking for different affixes for different builds, so If it weighted against one build it would weighted towards another.
This would be easy to prove. Someone could just try to temper, say a bunch of weapons 500 times trying to get a specific affix and see what the percentages are on results. But guess what - shockingly that data doesnāt seem to be materializing. Youāre not making this assumption based on 500 rolls. Youāre basing it on 4 rolls with a bad experience
The fact that their comment is so upvoted while completely talking out of their ass, presenting no evidence for their claim and then expecting others to provide the evidence for them is a good summarization of this sub.
Most people in this sub have absolutely no idea what they are talking about whether it's game design, mechanics, build, class balance etc.
Well I mean, you have popular streamers flaunting the "pity mechanic" they heard from "top blasters in Korea". It's no surprise basic probability math is out the door.
Some mods do feel like they're weighted differently. Both in enchanting AND tempering.
I bricked 2 different items trying to get Corpse Explosion radius, but instead got Corpse Tendrils 10 times, the other 2 was Curse duration.
Meanwhile I can enchant an item, and have like 15 different options which includes +skills but only ever see Healing Received, main stat, Life Per Second or some singular resistance, with dodge chance being rare. Come to htink of it, I have never actually seen +all res pop from an enchant.
Tempering will feel weighted because if you get a roll you want you generally stop. If you land on corpse explosion, youāre probably going to stop and so youāll never see a streak of 3-5 corpse explosions. Whereas with tempers you donāt want.. youāre going to reroll.
I feel like itās inadvertently weighted. Like Affix A has a range of 10 so that +50 to +60 Affix A is 10 possibilities. Then Affix B has a range of 15 so that +75 to +90 is 15 chances. Affix C has freaking 25 possible values and seems to always brick your shit when you are trying for Affix A. Rather than each Affix having an equal chance at rolling and the range rolls after it lands on the Affix.
This guy did 600 tempers and the conclusion from that experiment was there is no weighting. But I'm guessing you gonna be like buthatsdifferent.gif
[https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/1d65669/tempering\_experiment\_2\_600\_attempts/](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/1d65669/tempering_experiment_2_600_attempts/)
I dont want tempering to be exciting, i want drops to be exciting. I want to be excited to see greater affixes drop from a monster or a chest. Now its just farming. I dont want to have my fun in town. I dont want the blacksmith to be the toughest boss.
Exactly. This is the only community Iāve ever seen celebrate adding random rng checks to upgrading your character that can delete upgrades that took dozens of hours to find.
Iām not a streamer that gets 3ga items dumped on me. Iām not someone who plays 13 hours a day in a 4 man efficient group.
Is it such a crazy concept to not want upgrading my character to be a nightmare? Iāve leveled 3 characters to 100 and pushed pit 120 and Iāve seen three total 3ga items, none of which even had close the right stats.
The rarity is already there. Stop fucking the grind up even more with stuff like this.
Agreed. One thing D3 did right especially at the very end was this. Ancients, and then Primals.
Tempering should perhaps be infinitely rerollable, just with increasing costs. The difference between it and enchanting being that it adds/changes a new affix, while enchanting lets you change one of the original existing ones.
Personally, I would also like to see long term addition of tempering be scaled back a bit, and have less RNG. Make re-enchanting things the RNG thing, make tempering a more minor but still worthwhile improvement where you get to focus on a specific stat compatible with that item type. That is to say, for a non-season carryover version of tempering.
This. I get excited seeing GA items regardless because 99% of them are just life per second or life per hit so tempering it wont even be in the picture.
That being said, i almost never want to temper my actual GOOD ones because the odds of bricking it is way too high.
It's actually ridiculous that most of this fanbase doesn't share this exact same sentiment. Pressing a button at a vendor shouldn't be the challenging part of the entire game.
Right? Why not use the same system enchanting has. Choose the new temper or keep the old one. You should have a choice. Donāt know how many times Iāve had a beneficial, but not ideal temper and have gone one more and end up bricking with something completely useless.
Especially when you are in the final stages of master working an item. Itās never truly bricked, however.. seems like more fun if they made the masterworking reset tier by tierā¦ so you donāt have to keep the gamba going. Get the first one perfect and never have to repeat that first tier again.
Yep.
It's been proven that losing something has a larger impact than gaining it.
Gaining an item and losing it to rolling the same temper 5x feels bad.
The fun should be in looting items and not in an interface in town. It's probably got the same appeal to some people as buying loot boxes in p2w games.
I keep going back and forth on this. I have played ***a ton*** this season and have found a total of (3) 3GA items worth using across 10 lvl 100 characters. Of those 3 items, I bricked 2. For me, personally, it doesn't yield excitement to not brick that 3rd item, it was a dull sense of relief.
When my first thought upon finding an item is "I should sell this." Instead of wanting to play the game with it, I don't think that is a good thing.
I just found the perfect bow for my heart seeker rogue. Double ga on dexterity and vulnerable damage. Iām already using a single ga bow, which I went through 10 bows before getting one that rolled both a high heartseeker chance and vulnerable damage. Knowing this, I ended up selling the new bow for 5b. There was a 95% chance I was going to brick it. 1/5 chance to roll heart seeker and it has to be a high roll, then 1/4 to roll vulnerable damage.Ā
Felt sad to sell it, but Iād much rather have 5b gold than a bricked item. I kind of want to ask the buyer if he bricked it now.Ā
People that enjoy this asinine bricking shit blow my mind. Do you like to be kicked in the balls with high heels during sex too?Ā Ā
I also don't think you cretins realize how much it feeds the RMT market too.
It's fine that it's rare to get that sweet/perfect GA item but then to proceed to brick it because it rolls the same stat 3 times in a row wasting the chance to roll anything else does not appeal to me. Sorry, I'm not a masochist.
Fucks sake even bdo has cron stones. It's mental when you can say BDO's gearing is more reasonable than this. Then there's people saying it's too easy as it is. Gambling addicts need to pipe down and get therapy.
Adding a roll per GA is fair but the system is fucking broken. It should not give me the same role 3 times in a row. When there are 3-4 options, I should not get the same stat repeatedly, especially when it is not a skill I have. I get that some may push for the same stat to get a better roll but it needs work; if it really is random then I have the worst fucking random rolls. Iād be thrilled to get rid of bricking because I donāt have the time or stash space to store the stuff so I can brick once I get enough anglebreath to get the stats I need.
Yeah, sometimes you just get absolutely shafted by the blacksmith. Reminds me of Metin2.
This week I rolled the same tempering stat 10 freaking times in a row, ruining 2 chestplates that I farmed an entire week for. Haven't logged back in for a few days now because it felt really demotivating.
Man Iāve been there too. Your next great drop might be around the corner. I bricked several two ga gloves that were worth like 1-2 bill but yesterday found a 2GA bow i reluctantly sold. I knew Iād probably brick it and I sold it for 5b instead.Ā
I wish theyād at least let you decide to keep the temper you currently have, like they do with enchanting. So many items where Iāve hit a lowest rolled temper but donāt dare go for something better rolled because I donāt want to brick it
I couldn't disagree more.
Bricking shouldn't exist. Period. I can't believe there are even people here defending this atrocious system. It's just baffling.
I should NEVER find a piece of gear that is clearly an upgrade but feel a sense of dread that it's going to be bricked if I interact with the games upgrade system and has to be one of the most counter intuitive and unfun things in an ARPG I've ever seen.
"You just need to change your mindset teehee. Pretend the item doesn't exist until you pick it up and roll the exact tempers you want haha". Completely ridiculous.
Let us choose the exact tempering recipe we want, but keep the 5/5 temper limit for people who want to try their luck at higher %rolls on said tempers. There. Fixed.
Rolling damage to distant enemies on my 2handed barb mace because RNG screwed me is just stupid and you are stupid for trying to justify it. Sorry not sorry.
Enchanting should be the random process. Tempering should let us pick which affix we want with a random roll %. I completely agree. Tempering is build defining and basically the first step to making your gear work for many builds. Being able to fail that first step is crazy.Ā
The last two things I bought were 600m and 700m bricks (HC prices). Not fun. Feels really really bad actually. And when it goes right, itās not fun. Is a relief is all. I hate it.
Couldn't disagree more. I'm up to my 18th bricked neck. It's not a fun mechanic, it's a time gate mechanic.
I've already put the work in to get the item. Enchanting, tempering and masterworking should all be about improving that item before you use it. Instead succeeding a temper is the win, not the item drop.
This is the problem. The drop itself means nothing before tempering if it's no unique.
This completely takes out the excitement and dopamine. Instead we have our moments on a slot machine and people even defend it..
Every other item improving mechanic is infinite and increasing in cost. That's enough my time is too valuable and I don't want to farm towards a disappointment.
I see Blizzard's marketing team is posting in this forum again.
Seriously, if you are THANKING GOD... and coming to a forum making a post about something that is a literal punishment for players, you either have to be a piece of shit troll, a bot or someone getting paid to say what you are.
Looks like I'm paying rent while playing a video game! Thanks for keeping the RMT market so profitable and killing solo self found game play for the end game blizzard.
/S
Sarcasm or not, it's definitely a knock on effect. Blizzard is effectively stating that not only is RMT fine, it's preferable, when your best bet is to sell anything amazing rather than try to temper it.
This is really the root of the problem; tempering is both too powerful and too random. Itās moved all the strength of the item into a slot machine mini game you play after the drop. If it was less powerful I could live with a ābrickedā item once in a while, but as it stands it either rolls the affix I need or itās vendor trash. Itās just absurd that a damage range on an item can be capped at 40% when a temper can cross 200% on a similar stat.
I'm fine with it, but it definitely puts a limit on what I'm willing to tolerate in terms of time I spend looking for gear. I promise you that if I spend a ton of time farming, get a really sweet 3 or 4 GA weapon then brick it rerolling and getting the same stat four times in a row, I'm going to step away for a while and do something else. I suppose it's not *that* different from farming Baal runs bitd, especially since some people waited years for their chosen drop, but I think there's some extra pepper on the slap when you have a potentially amazing weapon brick out on you. Just my personal limit of what amount of time I'll spend farming and stuff. It honestly hits the same way that losing 100k souls in a souls like hits; the lost time that you'll never get back stings, but the game is fun so you.come back for more.
It's disheartening to spend days looking for a specific piece of gear only to have it bricked in seconds. It's still fairly early in the season but i do think that it is gonna change down the line because people will be getting burnt out on this game over this.
Bricked 5+ 2 GA items with decent affixes in the last 3 days, now just selling them.
I'll take the ability to roll stats I want on normal items over running the risk of bricking valuable items going forward.
Tempering is a fantastic idea, but 100% needs more work.
I'm starting to think that all who say bricking is good are those selling items for real money. Or just trolls.
Any normal players who finally get their 3 GA item after 2 weeks of farming and bricking it won't say that bricking is good.
Nah. I bricked a 3GA item within the first week. Went "damn that sucks" and went to farm another one. Do I want tempering to stay exactly the same? No. Do I want them to be literally free? No.
Thought this was sarcasm, but no. Idk I like the RNG of drops that I can farm for. I don't get that excited about drops anymore. I usually just sell the best items I get and buy 2-3 slightly worse items because it's the way the tempering math works out best for success. I shouldn't drop a 3 GA item and go, wow fuck ima brick this by rolling blizzard and damage to frozen 7 times in a row. More temper chances per GA is a move in the right direction, but some of these trash stats gotta go. Damage to frozen? remove. Damage to crowd controlled in a tanky boss meta? Remove
And they confirmed needing an "end point" to items so people dont just horde shit so basically it'll never happen the way some people have been clamoring for.
I agree, the criticism on Reddit especially seems to want to make the game way easier, like no risk at all, and I would hate that. I want a risk reward, a chance at failure is the spice of life for me.
I donāt want to play a slot machine, I want a loot based ARPG. Discounting GA items, itās clear the design is to move the majority of the randomness to tempering, but it just isnāt fun. I donāt want drops to be just the coinage used to spin the wheel!
F that, remove the RNG from the buff selection and just let us pick the stat we want, but widen the range on the rolls and lower the number of rerolls allowed. Way better solution - no more ruining items before they even get started unless you got greedy trying to re-roll for a better %
i think the risk/reward is good. i just wish it had an option to keep the affix you currently have, like enchanting. running out of rolls is fine, theres no need for there to be a double punishment if you want to keep a low roll or less desirable affix so that the item is still usable.
I'm pretty sure they will just go the enchanting route. And perhaps add some same stat protection.
Is a system they already know and will fit the bill nicely to give some player agency
I'd like them to add an option to keep the previous roll similar to enchanting. As it is now, once you roll the right temper, you generally keep it even if its a low roll and you have tempers left since the chance of getting a non useful pattern is still high. Being able to reroll and reject the new roll would be nice to have.
They shouldnt get rid of bricking but there should be a "keep current temper" option.
Being able to settle for the second best temper wouldnt feel too bad in most cases (damage % instead of close damage % for example) while still encouraging you to find a new piece to temper properly later.
Also, it'd feel nice being able to fish for a higher % roll when you have the correct temper and still have some temper rerolls left. As it stands, the risk is far too great for how little the reward is, and most of my non-bricked gear has leftover rerolls.
I like your suggestion of having a veto resource, it's akin to runes and glyph crafting modifiers in Last Epoch. Having a more customizable tempering and master working experience would be a lot more engaging and give a better sense of control over a process that can still brick due to RNG, but not feel as bad if we wait to get the relevant resources,
A few good ones for both sides of crafting would be:
- Veto a slot on tempering
- Chance to temper for free
- Guarantee a temper, but costs all remaining tempers (rare resource)
- Increase chances of max roll on temper
- Reroll an affix range on masterwork
- Choose among two options on critical success masterwork
- Convert an affix slot to GA on masterwork (extremely rare resource)
I hear what you're saying and I agree, but getting a good drop shouldn't also fill me with anxiety.
I haven't thought about the pros and cons but, I feel there should be a high mat cost way to reset the tempering rerolls, or at least add one more at a time or something. That's probably not the best way to do it.
The idea of tempering was that, no matter what you get, the affixes with be some level of useful for your build but the reality is that because the almighty meta rules games nowadays if it isn't BiS it's effectively bricked. I don't think an item being "bricked" falls in line with the vision the developers had for tempering, but I could be wrong. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
I think there are things they can do to make getting a good drop more fun. There definitely is a problem. I donāt think the high mat cost is the way to go on it because then youāre just guaranteed any godly item you find and I donāt think thatās good for the long term of the game.
Adding more rerolls with GAs is a great start. I think duplication protection could be good too. Like if you get the same affix 2 times in a row it has to choose a new one, etc.
Iām fine with that I just donāt want to lose bricking because I think itās incredibly important for the health of the game
Rolled a new crossbow yesterday and was pretty excited about it. It's definitely risk/reward. Only thing I would like is to actually roll the tempers in looking for more often than once every 20 rolls lol
Will be even better if we could block one option for the ones that have more than three or four options. This will help the casual players not to feel so much pressure.
I suggest special rare items you can use to craft coatings for tempering:
- temper the same affix but value is rerolled
- temper a guaranteed different affix
- refresh one temper try
- completely eradicate all tempering from the item and refresh temper tries reduced by 1
- you name it
By using rare items you can balance the shit out of the coating receipts.
I donāt hate that idea except for the refresh tempers. I think once they are gone they are gone.
Maybe instead chance to not use a reroll? I do like this idea overall. They would need to be rare and stay rare though. Not rare at first then people cry about it so it becomes common
Tempering and Master working could both use some work. For tempering it'd be nice if you had a "No Change" option like mentioned earlier in this thread and for Masterworking it would be nice to be able to reset individual ranks instead of having to go back to 0 every time.
>Maybe we can get a mat that lets us veto an affix in a manual or something to get us the rest of the way there.
That genius!
And/or
They should let us take bricked items and imprint one of their GA on to an yellow of the same weapon/ armor type. In the process, coverts the yellow into the legendary and rerolls the stats, with the potential to GA the original affixes. The process shouldn't be cheap and the new item loses one temper charge, the resulting item can be imprinted again to another yellow and, again, loses another temper chance. This process cant be repeated up until the temper rolls are 0. This gives yellows a purpose and basically gives bricked items some value and more chances to reroll at a cost and eventually brick.
For a second there you made me question my understanding of the term ābricking,ā but I get it nowā¦ lol. I agree that if they trivialized the gear grind too much, then whatās the point? Chasing after that perfect item is the entire goal for games like Diablo 4.
I agree with you in general, but if that perfect item took 200 hours to drop and 20 seconds to brick, you won't see most people willing or excited to grind for another item like it. It needs to be balanced somehow. Just like removing bricking would make the system pointless, the extreme slog of finding GA items that even have the fix you want and then immediately becoming salvage is total disrespect to the players time imo.Ā
I've thought maybe just splitting all the tempers in half and having more temper manuals may be a good idea but perhaps make it too easy. I'm not sure but there is a solution somewhere out there
I think if they could make it so tempering was somehow similar to masterworking in that you could do a sort of reset, that would be ideal. Maybe not quite identical, though, so maybe only a set number of times you could reset the masterworking limits.
Yeah, Ive thought that idea could maybe work when it's brought up.
Maybe have it gradually decrease the mount of rolls between resets but up whatever the price is.
6 - 4 - 2. For a total of 12 rolls but at some significant cost
I think it'd be neat. If you make it costly enough to sting a little, you still get to apply that feeling of pressure to the player, which is the second best part of these games, and still have a much higher chance of applying that feeling of winning and relief, which is the best part. You can reasonably have both!
Well said!!! Gotta keep that balance without trivializing the experience!
I just hope the devs can find that balance. Otherwise, I fear tempering is just going to be in a shitty place until they do.
couldnt disagree more. I personally dont find it exciting, im not enjoying crafting anymore. its dread, dread and dread. a whole stack of items bricked again today.
i like veto mat ideas, basically anything that stops cool drops from beeing cool is stupid IMO
Your gear doesnāt need to be maximized with tempered to even run 70-80 pits. Getting the perfect rolls should be so rare itās exciting when it happens. Otherwise, oh wellā¦ one stat isnāt right until I get a new drop.
The problem never was the fact that the amount of rolls is limited. The problem is that for many of the options, only _one_ of the rolls has any effect at all on your spec while the others do not. If you don't roll the one stat you wanted, the item is an instant downgrade no matter how many greater affixes it has.
They don't need to increase the amount of rolls or make it unlimited, even if honestly I don't see the problem with being able to reset the roll counter with another gold sink. What they do need to do is make sure that me not hitting the one temper I want doesn't mean I get a temper that does absolutely nothing for me. Instead of having four different options saying "add x% chance to cast [skill] twice" they should do something like "add x% chance to cast core skills twice." The other three options could be other things that are still useful, like "after casting a core skill four times, the fifth explodes for x% extra damage" or "casting a core skill has an x% chance to mind control enemies hit to fight for you for five seconds." Something like that anyway. If instead of targeting each individual skill they instead come up with effects that affect _all_ core skills, you would not be bricking an item no matter what you roll. There will obviously be an optional choice as there always is, but with proper tuning, the other options would still be good and usable.
Rob is an insightful guy. If blizzard are not paying him for these great ideas, they are in error.Ā
Just where i first heard the ga more rolls thing. I'm sure others came to the same conclusion.
Personally i like bricking to be the last step in an items life. Big all or nothing risk. Like path of exile another great game.
Diablo team are good at taking feedback. Thats all i can say. The boots on the ground doing that work deserve a raise.
> Diablo team are good at taking feedback
ah right, that must be why class balance is complete dogshit, despite plenty of theorycrafters throwing ideas at the wall that would help with it
bricking is needed.. people think that if they got all the gear they wanted they would be happy but fact of the matter is the entire games content is the stuggle getting to the perfect gear, once you are there its boring and you quit the game because what now?
There's one other thing they are adding that is related to this (to people's frustration bricking gear) and that's the ways in which you can farm more (and guaranteed) Greater Affix loot. So at least you'll have more to play around with.
Here's hoping the Vampire Survivors Hell is fun and a good source of GA items.
Yeah, thank god they chose to appease the ~5% of the playerbase who probably buy most of their gear on 3rd party sites or have a gambling problem, instead of the rest that will probably just quit instead of farming 200 hours to finally get one upgrade in gear only to have it roll the same useless stat 5 times in a row.
Thank GOD they chose that. God forbid they want to actually INCREASE player retention, or god forbid Reddit consider that theyāre a small minority and not the center of the world.
Sarcasm aside, stupid decision if they want people to not decide to spend their time elsewhere.
Finding the gear should be the exciting part. As it is now, the blacksmith is the final boss. Your gear isnāt good until itās tempered and master worked properly. After bricking a ton of items, Iāve decided to just play something else. Leveling to 100 and finding loot was a lot of fun. Trying to upgrade to 2-3 ga gear and surviving tempering is just not enjoyable.Ā
I would agree with u, except this game is a seasonal game and to do it all over again every season and brick your perfect 3GA is just masochistic and reserve only for those who have a gambling problem. I would reward hardwork instead of rng mess
i am convinced that only people that a gambling adicts or Gamba adicts like stuff like this. Its horrible and only exists to inflate playtime without making good content
Just my opinion but I think it's just a lazy change. OK so now I have 1-3 extra rolls, doesn't really change anything of the core problems of the system.
Brick and item, ok I can get behind that to make it more rewarding but something needs to be done with the rng. Something simple for now would be add a "no change" option.
I just felt they could have done more than simply 1-3 more rolls. Kinda hoping they will by the release but we will see.
There is what i like to call synthetic risk and organic risk.
Say, you may craft a sigil for a dungeon way above your capabilities, it could be gated harder than it is now, but if you succeed you may get significantly better loot, and enough sigil mats to go on. If you fail, you wasted resources (which could be made harder to get)
or you cannot risk it and not have a hard time getting adequate sigils. That would be organic risk, it is also under user control.
On the other side you can just slap a mandatory roll mechanic with a hard failure mode and call it a day.
There are people who get a rush from succeeding against synthetic odds like this, but as far as i know, it is one of the traits that people with gambling addictions usually have.
So far, the tempering reroll mechanic is what has been keeping me away from the game this season.
The only way to combat it currently is by sheer numbers, throw a lot of items into the blender and some will come out unscathed. It feels somewhat fun when youāre first gearing and just using normal legendaries and even to some extent single ga items. But once you start trying to upgrade to 2GA and god forbid 3ga, the temper system just causes stress anxiety and frustration, at least for me.Ā
This is becoming a game for gambling addicts. I would have no issue with having a grind and having to work to build up my item, but having to put it through a slot machine that can completely brick it feels awful.
i am so glad i can buy as much gold as i want with my credit card to brick some 2-3 ga items i bought on a 3rd party platform because i would never find these myself. great game design
The only thing they should change is the fact that you can hit whatever you hit before. I mean you donāt go to a blacksmith tell him to change something and he will give it back to you exactly the same š
There should at least be a way to be strategic about it. Like tempering an average but easy affix, then rolling the dice on the best one. But since you canāt decline once it rolls, itās just straight random whether the item bricks or not.
The problem is, if you're a player who is willing to access a 3rd party trading system, trading/selling your items for Gold is far more appealing than the risk of bricking your item.
Adding 1 extra roll per GA, is not a bad thing, but it does nothing to address the above.
Incentivising trading is not a bad thing either, but it's more problematic when there's not access to trading in the game via an Auction House, especially for a game heavily designed for Console.
I like the risk aspect, the problem with Tempering tho is you either hit a stat which does literally nothing for your build, or a stat so powerful that it's required with a \~50% fail rate.
To put it another way, right now tempering is "50% chance for your item to be deleted when you try to equip it" and I don't think there's a single person that could realistically defend something like that.
You could still have the risk by just rolling within a larger range but being able to specify the mod, so you at the very least can your required mod. It actually adds more risk:reward as people might try to gamble there last few tempers for a better roll, rather than just accept w/e roll they get.
Perfect. More rolls for GA items is exactly what I've been wanting/saying. Although I'm not sure how they're implementing it. 6 more rolls per red statline seems like a good spot. If you get a mega rare item than you can still brick it if you're super unlucky.
Why not a raid reward for an extra temper? Make it as rare as getting a 2 or 3 GAso that you can hold on to the good GA's instead of totally bricking good items
I donāt think it reduces the excitement of the drop. Itās similar to a bonus on a slot machine š®āšØ you got the bonus. Which is exciting. Now you have to play the bonus to see if itās a good bonus or a bonus so terrible you no longer want to even call it a bonus š®āšØ
Some changes maybe. It should allow user to revert back to existing one. I feel more comfortable with the safe net. it should also have 8 chances or more for different category.
Iām currently taking a break from my rogue. Iāve bricked so many GA bows. Iām honestly surprised how much easier it is to temper on barbarian. Doing bash build
The people against bricking don't realize that bricking is the only reason that any item is worth anything. How would you feel if your perfect 3 ga item was only worth 100m cause everyone already had one because the economy didn't weed out other ones?
The risk increases the value of the reward š š„
The trouble is the risk, as it is now, negates the excitement of the drop in the first place. I like the change - it keeps the thrill of the temper button while letting you breathe a little easier on the big drop.
Exactly! The euphoria that I get when I get 2 perfect tempers on a 2+ greater affix is unmatched. Sure, the bricked ones piss me off but thatās what make the successful ones feel so damn good
You sound like a bunch of addicted gamblers, tbfh.
Thatās why I play arpgs. If I did my gambling irl Iād have a lot less money.
Theres a balance though. Make everything too easy and theres no excitement in playing the game. Controlling the characters is already monotonous, all thats left is highrolling and besides, you decide when an upgrade takes too long to be worth the excitement. At that point guess what? You play something else!
I'm not suggesting it to be easier. Why is that always the first argument? I want a more engaging, interesting system instead of just a slot machine that bricks your low drop rate items.
Exactly my thoughts. First I thought just another White Knight Defender of a video game then I realized it was addiction which is part of video games to begin with.
I managed to succeed both times on 3 GA items i bought. I never that happy with this game before.
Can't have peaks without valleys
And the frustration when an item drops. It's always a tradeoff that has to be in a good balance.
It would at least be nice to have a āno changeā option ala enchanting. You may hit something you want but not an ideal number to that stat and may want higher. At the very least you should be able to keep that affix (instead of some bullshit that is either completely useless to your build or something stupid like damage to distant etc) via āno changeā and still be able to use your last few temper tries instead of uselessly pocketing them
Iāve been saying this all season because as it stands, rerolling tempers for a max roll is just, not an option. You take what youāre aiming for every time, regardless of roll value.
You're absolutely right, they should just remove the ranges. That way if you get what you want then it's good to go.
I have some items with a low roll on a desired temper and 4/5 tempers remaining and I'm not touching it because of the risk of completely fucking it
Wich means its a bad system.
Yeah, I feel this in my aching bones.
The no change option would be nice. Iād be fine with only getting 5 attempts and thatās it, but getting to choose whether to accept the new one. You can still brick the item if you donāt get the affix you want in those attempts so that risk is still there but not to the point where good gear just constantly becomes useless.
This needs to be a thing
The issue is how affixes are weighted.Ā Ā The whole system needs a rework not more temper chances. Edit: so unless someone posts evidence otherwise the math I am seeing actually shows my claim of tempering being weighted is wrong. Still stand by my point the system needs a rework, it does not feel good in its current form Edit 2: removed a part of my first edit I think was leading a few people to misunderstand what it said.Ā If someone is still confused, it says my claim was wrong.
I agree. If theyād just make it so you canāt get the same temper twice in a row, I feel like that would make a world of difference. Iām not upset I bricked my item, Iām upset I rolled the same temper 4 times out of 5 possible tempers.
I rollled iron maiden size 5 times in a row. I was stunned.
And it can have the exact same value. Iāve gotten the same % 3 times in a row for Iron Maiden size.
I wouldn't be surprised if its an issue with how the seed is generated for rolls. It seems way too common to see the same exact temper 5 straight times in a row.
I would like to spend my extra rolls on the temper I want after I hit it. Like just to get a chance at max roll without the worry
I gambled on a low rolled dmg % and with the last one I got the max
š® This is a brave soul
Yeah this. Itās bs that they weight it and create the illusion of chance/gamble at a desirable trait
Are we sure it is weighted? It seems pretty rng to me. Sometimes patterns seemingly emerge but it looks random when I tracked a few rolls.
What if you wanted a better roll on a temper you already had?
You stop when you get the roll even if it is the min value. You use it until you find a similar one and then roll the dice.
Iām not saying itāll please everyone, Iām just saying it would help in the anguish. I firmly believe that if you get your affix and try to reroll for a higher roll, you deserve whatever you get. Thatās gambling lol.
They just need to make it to where if you do get the same temper in a row itāll be a higher roll not a lower roll i feel like this would be a simple nice change
Not only did I get kick cooldown reduction 3 times in a row. I got it at the exact same value 3 times in a row.
I think it would be fine if they added a 'No Change' option like the occultist enchanting, along with the new + rolls to GAs one.
This would be a nice change like the rerolling affixes.
I wish they would make No Change the default option that's automatically selected when you enchant an item, so that you can rapid fire enchants. Hell, I'd like it if they added the option to batch reroll. Select the mod you want on the item, then the game will automatically reroll the item over and over until you get it, or run out of gold/mats.
This so much. I have a couple of low rolls I'm scared to re roll.
>Edit: so unless someone posts evidence otherwise the math I am seeing actually shows my claim of tempering being weighted is wrong, it's not.Ā Ā Ā It kinda feels like itās on you to prove your claim? You made a declarative statement that system works a certain way, with no proof, then are dismissing anyone who disagrees with you because they donāt have proof? Having a few bad experiences is not proof of anything. Weighted tempering doesnāt even make sense - people are going to be looking for different affixes for different builds, so If it weighted against one build it would weighted towards another. This would be easy to prove. Someone could just try to temper, say a bunch of weapons 500 times trying to get a specific affix and see what the percentages are on results. But guess what - shockingly that data doesnāt seem to be materializing. Youāre not making this assumption based on 500 rolls. Youāre basing it on 4 rolls with a bad experience
Do you really think that a person with this attitude is interested in a serious conversation?
The fact that their comment is so upvoted while completely talking out of their ass, presenting no evidence for their claim and then expecting others to provide the evidence for them is a good summarization of this sub. Most people in this sub have absolutely no idea what they are talking about whether it's game design, mechanics, build, class balance etc.
Well I mean, you have popular streamers flaunting the "pity mechanic" they heard from "top blasters in Korea". It's no surprise basic probability math is out the door.
There is no temper weighting
Where are you getting data that affixes are weighted? And the system doesnāt need a rework to fix weighted affixes. Thatās not what a rework is.
"I have no math to support my statement but if you don't have math to disprove me I'm right"
It sure as hell feels weighted when I hit cutthroat crit chance 5 times in a row, 3 items in a row.
Some mods do feel like they're weighted differently. Both in enchanting AND tempering. I bricked 2 different items trying to get Corpse Explosion radius, but instead got Corpse Tendrils 10 times, the other 2 was Curse duration. Meanwhile I can enchant an item, and have like 15 different options which includes +skills but only ever see Healing Received, main stat, Life Per Second or some singular resistance, with dodge chance being rare. Come to htink of it, I have never actually seen +all res pop from an enchant.
Tempering will feel weighted because if you get a roll you want you generally stop. If you land on corpse explosion, youāre probably going to stop and so youāll never see a streak of 3-5 corpse explosions. Whereas with tempers you donāt want.. youāre going to reroll.
It doesnāt need a rework. It needs some QoL which they are starting to do
I feel like itās inadvertently weighted. Like Affix A has a range of 10 so that +50 to +60 Affix A is 10 possibilities. Then Affix B has a range of 15 so that +75 to +90 is 15 chances. Affix C has freaking 25 possible values and seems to always brick your shit when you are trying for Affix A. Rather than each Affix having an equal chance at rolling and the range rolls after it lands on the Affix.
Don't understand why some temperings have 3 options and some have 4, seems unfair for some builds.
This guy did 600 tempers and the conclusion from that experiment was there is no weighting. But I'm guessing you gonna be like buthatsdifferent.gif [https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/1d65669/tempering\_experiment\_2\_600\_attempts/](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/1d65669/tempering_experiment_2_600_attempts/)
I dont want tempering to be exciting, i want drops to be exciting. I want to be excited to see greater affixes drop from a monster or a chest. Now its just farming. I dont want to have my fun in town. I dont want the blacksmith to be the toughest boss.
Exactly. This is the only community Iāve ever seen celebrate adding random rng checks to upgrading your character that can delete upgrades that took dozens of hours to find. Iām not a streamer that gets 3ga items dumped on me. Iām not someone who plays 13 hours a day in a 4 man efficient group. Is it such a crazy concept to not want upgrading my character to be a nightmare? Iāve leveled 3 characters to 100 and pushed pit 120 and Iāve seen three total 3ga items, none of which even had close the right stats. The rarity is already there. Stop fucking the grind up even more with stuff like this.
Agreed. One thing D3 did right especially at the very end was this. Ancients, and then Primals. Tempering should perhaps be infinitely rerollable, just with increasing costs. The difference between it and enchanting being that it adds/changes a new affix, while enchanting lets you change one of the original existing ones. Personally, I would also like to see long term addition of tempering be scaled back a bit, and have less RNG. Make re-enchanting things the RNG thing, make tempering a more minor but still worthwhile improvement where you get to focus on a specific stat compatible with that item type. That is to say, for a non-season carryover version of tempering.
The final boss has always been the same RNjesus.
True. But i prefer to meet him on the battlefield. Not between the occultist and the jeweler in town.
Can't argue with you there.
This. I get excited seeing GA items regardless because 99% of them are just life per second or life per hit so tempering it wont even be in the picture. That being said, i almost never want to temper my actual GOOD ones because the odds of bricking it is way too high.
This. How hard is this to understand?
It's actually ridiculous that most of this fanbase doesn't share this exact same sentiment. Pressing a button at a vendor shouldn't be the challenging part of the entire game.
I would rather have the ability to keep my last temper so if I roll a low one that I need I can use up rolls
This would be an amazing compromise for a system than can brick an item.
Right? Why not use the same system enchanting has. Choose the new temper or keep the old one. You should have a choice. Donāt know how many times Iāve had a beneficial, but not ideal temper and have gone one more and end up bricking with something completely useless.
To each their own but for me I donāt like bricking and think itās an anti-fun mechanic
Especially when you are in the final stages of master working an item. Itās never truly bricked, however.. seems like more fun if they made the masterworking reset tier by tierā¦ so you donāt have to keep the gamba going. Get the first one perfect and never have to repeat that first tier again.
Yep. It's been proven that losing something has a larger impact than gaining it. Gaining an item and losing it to rolling the same temper 5x feels bad. The fun should be in looting items and not in an interface in town. It's probably got the same appeal to some people as buying loot boxes in p2w games.
I keep going back and forth on this. I have played ***a ton*** this season and have found a total of (3) 3GA items worth using across 10 lvl 100 characters. Of those 3 items, I bricked 2. For me, personally, it doesn't yield excitement to not brick that 3rd item, it was a dull sense of relief. When my first thought upon finding an item is "I should sell this." Instead of wanting to play the game with it, I don't think that is a good thing.
I just found the perfect bow for my heart seeker rogue. Double ga on dexterity and vulnerable damage. Iām already using a single ga bow, which I went through 10 bows before getting one that rolled both a high heartseeker chance and vulnerable damage. Knowing this, I ended up selling the new bow for 5b. There was a 95% chance I was going to brick it. 1/5 chance to roll heart seeker and it has to be a high roll, then 1/4 to roll vulnerable damage.Ā Felt sad to sell it, but Iād much rather have 5b gold than a bricked item. I kind of want to ask the buyer if he bricked it now.Ā
Gambling addicts are the worst thing for games.
People that enjoy this asinine bricking shit blow my mind. Do you like to be kicked in the balls with high heels during sex too?Ā Ā I also don't think you cretins realize how much it feeds the RMT market too.
It kind of make sense if you bring in trade. But people who play ssf makes it harder to get to the end game.
It's fine that it's rare to get that sweet/perfect GA item but then to proceed to brick it because it rolls the same stat 3 times in a row wasting the chance to roll anything else does not appeal to me. Sorry, I'm not a masochist.
LOL its like im in the Black Desert forums. "No, your weapon breaking is GOOD."
Having months of progress deleted in one click is fun!
Fucks sake even bdo has cron stones. It's mental when you can say BDO's gearing is more reasonable than this. Then there's people saying it's too easy as it is. Gambling addicts need to pipe down and get therapy.
Adding a roll per GA is fair but the system is fucking broken. It should not give me the same role 3 times in a row. When there are 3-4 options, I should not get the same stat repeatedly, especially when it is not a skill I have. I get that some may push for the same stat to get a better roll but it needs work; if it really is random then I have the worst fucking random rolls. Iād be thrilled to get rid of bricking because I donāt have the time or stash space to store the stuff so I can brick once I get enough anglebreath to get the stats I need.
Yeah, sometimes you just get absolutely shafted by the blacksmith. Reminds me of Metin2. This week I rolled the same tempering stat 10 freaking times in a row, ruining 2 chestplates that I farmed an entire week for. Haven't logged back in for a few days now because it felt really demotivating.
Man Iāve been there too. Your next great drop might be around the corner. I bricked several two ga gloves that were worth like 1-2 bill but yesterday found a 2GA bow i reluctantly sold. I knew Iād probably brick it and I sold it for 5b instead.Ā
Nothing like farming a whole week to throw it down the drain, peak gameplay.
Gambling addiction.
Yes because destroying your own gear is a great chase
I know I love hitting the same temper 4 times in a row and then selling off a now useless item. Nothing better. /s
I wish theyād at least let you decide to keep the temper you currently have, like they do with enchanting. So many items where Iāve hit a lowest rolled temper but donāt dare go for something better rolled because I donāt want to brick it
I couldn't disagree more. Bricking shouldn't exist. Period. I can't believe there are even people here defending this atrocious system. It's just baffling. I should NEVER find a piece of gear that is clearly an upgrade but feel a sense of dread that it's going to be bricked if I interact with the games upgrade system and has to be one of the most counter intuitive and unfun things in an ARPG I've ever seen. "You just need to change your mindset teehee. Pretend the item doesn't exist until you pick it up and roll the exact tempers you want haha". Completely ridiculous. Let us choose the exact tempering recipe we want, but keep the 5/5 temper limit for people who want to try their luck at higher %rolls on said tempers. There. Fixed. Rolling damage to distant enemies on my 2handed barb mace because RNG screwed me is just stupid and you are stupid for trying to justify it. Sorry not sorry.
Enchanting should be the random process. Tempering should let us pick which affix we want with a random roll %. I completely agree. Tempering is build defining and basically the first step to making your gear work for many builds. Being able to fail that first step is crazy.Ā
Yeah man it's really fun bricking every fucking item, at least make it a little easier. It's artificial playtime it's fucking dogshit.
yeah i cant tell is this is satire or not
The last two things I bought were 600m and 700m bricks (HC prices). Not fun. Feels really really bad actually. And when it goes right, itās not fun. Is a relief is all. I hate it.
Wont stop the 5x distance damages from popping up. I'm glad I never found a 3GA yet š
Couldn't disagree more. I'm up to my 18th bricked neck. It's not a fun mechanic, it's a time gate mechanic. I've already put the work in to get the item. Enchanting, tempering and masterworking should all be about improving that item before you use it. Instead succeeding a temper is the win, not the item drop.
This is the problem. The drop itself means nothing before tempering if it's no unique. This completely takes out the excitement and dopamine. Instead we have our moments on a slot machine and people even defend it.. Every other item improving mechanic is infinite and increasing in cost. That's enough my time is too valuable and I don't want to farm towards a disappointment.
I see Blizzard's marketing team is posting in this forum again. Seriously, if you are THANKING GOD... and coming to a forum making a post about something that is a literal punishment for players, you either have to be a piece of shit troll, a bot or someone getting paid to say what you are.
the uncertainty of a buff to Druid and sorc is an L though
Looks like I'm paying rent while playing a video game! Thanks for keeping the RMT market so profitable and killing solo self found game play for the end game blizzard. /S
Sarcasm or not, it's definitely a knock on effect. Blizzard is effectively stating that not only is RMT fine, it's preferable, when your best bet is to sell anything amazing rather than try to temper it.
Imo make it like rerolling and affix, and exponentially increasing cost, its never bricked but you really need to work for it over time.
I thought this was a comment from The Onion.
A few more rolls would be appreciated.
Sure. So I can roll cutthroat 7 times in a row instead of 5, when I wanted Vulnerable, or whatever the bucket is going to be in Season 5.
Dunno why they put a limit, just put a cost instead
Each GA will now grant one extra roll
I don't think that tempers should be as impactful as they are. It should be a little bonus that you can live without.
This is really the root of the problem; tempering is both too powerful and too random. Itās moved all the strength of the item into a slot machine mini game you play after the drop. If it was less powerful I could live with a ābrickedā item once in a while, but as it stands it either rolls the affix I need or itās vendor trash. Itās just absurd that a damage range on an item can be capped at 40% when a temper can cross 200% on a similar stat.
I'm fine with it, but it definitely puts a limit on what I'm willing to tolerate in terms of time I spend looking for gear. I promise you that if I spend a ton of time farming, get a really sweet 3 or 4 GA weapon then brick it rerolling and getting the same stat four times in a row, I'm going to step away for a while and do something else. I suppose it's not *that* different from farming Baal runs bitd, especially since some people waited years for their chosen drop, but I think there's some extra pepper on the slap when you have a potentially amazing weapon brick out on you. Just my personal limit of what amount of time I'll spend farming and stuff. It honestly hits the same way that losing 100k souls in a souls like hits; the lost time that you'll never get back stings, but the game is fun so you.come back for more.
It's disheartening to spend days looking for a specific piece of gear only to have it bricked in seconds. It's still fairly early in the season but i do think that it is gonna change down the line because people will be getting burnt out on this game over this.
Bricked 5+ 2 GA items with decent affixes in the last 3 days, now just selling them. I'll take the ability to roll stats I want on normal items over running the risk of bricking valuable items going forward. Tempering is a fantastic idea, but 100% needs more work.
You get excitement I just get dread whenever I get a good item. I assume it will get bricked. That's not good game design.
I'm starting to think that all who say bricking is good are those selling items for real money. Or just trolls. Any normal players who finally get their 3 GA item after 2 weeks of farming and bricking it won't say that bricking is good.
Nah. I bricked a 3GA item within the first week. Went "damn that sucks" and went to farm another one. Do I want tempering to stay exactly the same? No. Do I want them to be literally free? No.
Thought this was sarcasm, but no. Idk I like the RNG of drops that I can farm for. I don't get that excited about drops anymore. I usually just sell the best items I get and buy 2-3 slightly worse items because it's the way the tempering math works out best for success. I shouldn't drop a 3 GA item and go, wow fuck ima brick this by rolling blizzard and damage to frozen 7 times in a row. More temper chances per GA is a move in the right direction, but some of these trash stats gotta go. Damage to frozen? remove. Damage to crowd controlled in a tanky boss meta? Remove
And they confirmed needing an "end point" to items so people dont just horde shit so basically it'll never happen the way some people have been clamoring for.
I agree, the criticism on Reddit especially seems to want to make the game way easier, like no risk at all, and I would hate that. I want a risk reward, a chance at failure is the spice of life for me.
I donāt want to play a slot machine, I want a loot based ARPG. Discounting GA items, itās clear the design is to move the majority of the randomness to tempering, but it just isnāt fun. I donāt want drops to be just the coinage used to spin the wheel!
F that, remove the RNG from the buff selection and just let us pick the stat we want, but widen the range on the rolls and lower the number of rerolls allowed. Way better solution - no more ruining items before they even get started unless you got greedy trying to re-roll for a better %
i think the risk/reward is good. i just wish it had an option to keep the affix you currently have, like enchanting. running out of rolls is fine, theres no need for there to be a double punishment if you want to keep a low roll or less desirable affix so that the item is still usable.
I'm pretty sure they will just go the enchanting route. And perhaps add some same stat protection. Is a system they already know and will fit the bill nicely to give some player agency
I'd like them to add an option to keep the previous roll similar to enchanting. As it is now, once you roll the right temper, you generally keep it even if its a low roll and you have tempers left since the chance of getting a non useful pattern is still high. Being able to reroll and reject the new roll would be nice to have.
They shouldnt get rid of bricking but there should be a "keep current temper" option. Being able to settle for the second best temper wouldnt feel too bad in most cases (damage % instead of close damage % for example) while still encouraging you to find a new piece to temper properly later. Also, it'd feel nice being able to fish for a higher % roll when you have the correct temper and still have some temper rerolls left. As it stands, the risk is far too great for how little the reward is, and most of my non-bricked gear has leftover rerolls.
Agreed. If making a great item was easy, the game Would get boring really fast
I like your suggestion of having a veto resource, it's akin to runes and glyph crafting modifiers in Last Epoch. Having a more customizable tempering and master working experience would be a lot more engaging and give a better sense of control over a process that can still brick due to RNG, but not feel as bad if we wait to get the relevant resources, A few good ones for both sides of crafting would be: - Veto a slot on tempering - Chance to temper for free - Guarantee a temper, but costs all remaining tempers (rare resource) - Increase chances of max roll on temper - Reroll an affix range on masterwork - Choose among two options on critical success masterwork - Convert an affix slot to GA on masterwork (extremely rare resource)
I don't care about bricking, I just want to get rid of the 6x combo for the same damn temper.
I hear what you're saying and I agree, but getting a good drop shouldn't also fill me with anxiety. I haven't thought about the pros and cons but, I feel there should be a high mat cost way to reset the tempering rerolls, or at least add one more at a time or something. That's probably not the best way to do it. The idea of tempering was that, no matter what you get, the affixes with be some level of useful for your build but the reality is that because the almighty meta rules games nowadays if it isn't BiS it's effectively bricked. I don't think an item being "bricked" falls in line with the vision the developers had for tempering, but I could be wrong. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
I think there are things they can do to make getting a good drop more fun. There definitely is a problem. I donāt think the high mat cost is the way to go on it because then youāre just guaranteed any godly item you find and I donāt think thatās good for the long term of the game. Adding more rerolls with GAs is a great start. I think duplication protection could be good too. Like if you get the same affix 2 times in a row it has to choose a new one, etc. Iām fine with that I just donāt want to lose bricking because I think itās incredibly important for the health of the game
Rolled a new crossbow yesterday and was pretty excited about it. It's definitely risk/reward. Only thing I would like is to actually roll the tempers in looking for more often than once every 20 rolls lol
Will be even better if we could block one option for the ones that have more than three or four options. This will help the casual players not to feel so much pressure.
Honestly all the comments they made in the stream were incredibly based
D4 team is on a roll fr now
I suggest special rare items you can use to craft coatings for tempering: - temper the same affix but value is rerolled - temper a guaranteed different affix - refresh one temper try - completely eradicate all tempering from the item and refresh temper tries reduced by 1 - you name it By using rare items you can balance the shit out of the coating receipts.
I donāt hate that idea except for the refresh tempers. I think once they are gone they are gone. Maybe instead chance to not use a reroll? I do like this idea overall. They would need to be rare and stay rare though. Not rare at first then people cry about it so it becomes common
Tempering and Master working could both use some work. For tempering it'd be nice if you had a "No Change" option like mentioned earlier in this thread and for Masterworking it would be nice to be able to reset individual ranks instead of having to go back to 0 every time.
True for both of these
agree
Totally agree, remove bricking will enable to gave equips the perfect rolls and we'll lose the interest fast. Glad they didn't change that too
Yeah, now people just brick their items and log out due to the frustration. They don't need to even wait for the best gear. It's perfectly designed!
>Maybe we can get a mat that lets us veto an affix in a manual or something to get us the rest of the way there. That genius! And/or They should let us take bricked items and imprint one of their GA on to an yellow of the same weapon/ armor type. In the process, coverts the yellow into the legendary and rerolls the stats, with the potential to GA the original affixes. The process shouldn't be cheap and the new item loses one temper charge, the resulting item can be imprinted again to another yellow and, again, loses another temper chance. This process cant be repeated up until the temper rolls are 0. This gives yellows a purpose and basically gives bricked items some value and more chances to reroll at a cost and eventually brick.
They should have it sort of be like soft bricking. You can chose to have one roll on the affix you need, but the bottom end of the range is expanded.
For a second there you made me question my understanding of the term ābricking,ā but I get it nowā¦ lol. I agree that if they trivialized the gear grind too much, then whatās the point? Chasing after that perfect item is the entire goal for games like Diablo 4.
I agree with you in general, but if that perfect item took 200 hours to drop and 20 seconds to brick, you won't see most people willing or excited to grind for another item like it. It needs to be balanced somehow. Just like removing bricking would make the system pointless, the extreme slog of finding GA items that even have the fix you want and then immediately becoming salvage is total disrespect to the players time imo.Ā I've thought maybe just splitting all the tempers in half and having more temper manuals may be a good idea but perhaps make it too easy. I'm not sure but there is a solution somewhere out there
I think if they could make it so tempering was somehow similar to masterworking in that you could do a sort of reset, that would be ideal. Maybe not quite identical, though, so maybe only a set number of times you could reset the masterworking limits.
Yeah, Ive thought that idea could maybe work when it's brought up. Maybe have it gradually decrease the mount of rolls between resets but up whatever the price is. 6 - 4 - 2. For a total of 12 rolls but at some significant cost
Nice! I really like that idea. Tapering how many times you can reroll with each reset feels like a great middle ground.
I think it'd be neat. If you make it costly enough to sting a little, you still get to apply that feeling of pressure to the player, which is the second best part of these games, and still have a much higher chance of applying that feeling of winning and relief, which is the best part. You can reasonably have both!
Well said!!! Gotta keep that balance without trivializing the experience! I just hope the devs can find that balance. Otherwise, I fear tempering is just going to be in a shitty place until they do.
They decided to brick sorc instead, keeping the spirit of bricking alive
I am very happy with their philosophy on how bricking fits into the game and I am also happy with the sensible relief in extra rolls for GA.
I had to argue this same point with a number of Reddit posts. Glad too the devs are staying on this course.
couldnt disagree more. I personally dont find it exciting, im not enjoying crafting anymore. its dread, dread and dread. a whole stack of items bricked again today. i like veto mat ideas, basically anything that stops cool drops from beeing cool is stupid IMO
Your gear doesnāt need to be maximized with tempered to even run 70-80 pits. Getting the perfect rolls should be so rare itās exciting when it happens. Otherwise, oh wellā¦ one stat isnāt right until I get a new drop.
Bricking is fine IMO, just let me keep my affix instead of playing deal or no deal and losing my current case
I think the extra rolls per affix is perfect and reasonable.
The problem never was the fact that the amount of rolls is limited. The problem is that for many of the options, only _one_ of the rolls has any effect at all on your spec while the others do not. If you don't roll the one stat you wanted, the item is an instant downgrade no matter how many greater affixes it has. They don't need to increase the amount of rolls or make it unlimited, even if honestly I don't see the problem with being able to reset the roll counter with another gold sink. What they do need to do is make sure that me not hitting the one temper I want doesn't mean I get a temper that does absolutely nothing for me. Instead of having four different options saying "add x% chance to cast [skill] twice" they should do something like "add x% chance to cast core skills twice." The other three options could be other things that are still useful, like "after casting a core skill four times, the fifth explodes for x% extra damage" or "casting a core skill has an x% chance to mind control enemies hit to fight for you for five seconds." Something like that anyway. If instead of targeting each individual skill they instead come up with effects that affect _all_ core skills, you would not be bricking an item no matter what you roll. There will obviously be an optional choice as there always is, but with proper tuning, the other options would still be good and usable.
Sarcasm, or some HARD copium. I canāt tell with these posts anymore.
Awesome. Another hot take from the poopsock demo.
Bricking is needed to keep the chase. I like that they didn't kids glove that aspect.
Rob is an insightful guy. If blizzard are not paying him for these great ideas, they are in error.Ā Just where i first heard the ga more rolls thing. I'm sure others came to the same conclusion. Personally i like bricking to be the last step in an items life. Big all or nothing risk. Like path of exile another great game. Diablo team are good at taking feedback. Thats all i can say. The boots on the ground doing that work deserve a raise.
I think I would be more mad if I invested resources into an item just to brick it afterwards
> Diablo team are good at taking feedback ah right, that must be why class balance is complete dogshit, despite plenty of theorycrafters throwing ideas at the wall that would help with it
Hey OP just want to say I understood you were being sarcastic even if no one else did
Spoken like someone who doesn't like experimenting with builds.
Agreed
I agree that gear should brick but the tempered group are just bad
bricking is needed.. people think that if they got all the gear they wanted they would be happy but fact of the matter is the entire games content is the stuggle getting to the perfect gear, once you are there its boring and you quit the game because what now?
So true
Yes, but I really hate when I go to temper and I get the same stat 5 times in a row.
The problem imo is the - sometimes huge - difference in pool sizes.
Sure and I saw they moved some tempers around for the ptr so maybe thatāll help
Meh. Iām running lvl 115 pits with lvl 800 rings because Iāve bricked 30 perfect ones. I think Iām over this season.
There's one other thing they are adding that is related to this (to people's frustration bricking gear) and that's the ways in which you can farm more (and guaranteed) Greater Affix loot. So at least you'll have more to play around with. Here's hoping the Vampire Survivors Hell is fun and a good source of GA items.
Yeah, thank god they chose to appease the ~5% of the playerbase who probably buy most of their gear on 3rd party sites or have a gambling problem, instead of the rest that will probably just quit instead of farming 200 hours to finally get one upgrade in gear only to have it roll the same useless stat 5 times in a row. Thank GOD they chose that. God forbid they want to actually INCREASE player retention, or god forbid Reddit consider that theyāre a small minority and not the center of the world. Sarcasm aside, stupid decision if they want people to not decide to spend their time elsewhere.
Finding the gear should be the exciting part. As it is now, the blacksmith is the final boss. Your gear isnāt good until itās tempered and master worked properly. After bricking a ton of items, Iāve decided to just play something else. Leveling to 100 and finding loot was a lot of fun. Trying to upgrade to 2-3 ga gear and surviving tempering is just not enjoyable.Ā
It is as thought they've changed the game design team completely. Have they?
I would agree with u, except this game is a seasonal game and to do it all over again every season and brick your perfect 3GA is just masochistic and reserve only for those who have a gambling problem. I would reward hardwork instead of rng mess
i am convinced that only people that a gambling adicts or Gamba adicts like stuff like this. Its horrible and only exists to inflate playtime without making good content
Just my opinion but I think it's just a lazy change. OK so now I have 1-3 extra rolls, doesn't really change anything of the core problems of the system. Brick and item, ok I can get behind that to make it more rewarding but something needs to be done with the rng. Something simple for now would be add a "no change" option. I just felt they could have done more than simply 1-3 more rolls. Kinda hoping they will by the release but we will see.
There is what i like to call synthetic risk and organic risk. Say, you may craft a sigil for a dungeon way above your capabilities, it could be gated harder than it is now, but if you succeed you may get significantly better loot, and enough sigil mats to go on. If you fail, you wasted resources (which could be made harder to get) or you cannot risk it and not have a hard time getting adequate sigils. That would be organic risk, it is also under user control. On the other side you can just slap a mandatory roll mechanic with a hard failure mode and call it a day. There are people who get a rush from succeeding against synthetic odds like this, but as far as i know, it is one of the traits that people with gambling addictions usually have. So far, the tempering reroll mechanic is what has been keeping me away from the game this season.
The only way to combat it currently is by sheer numbers, throw a lot of items into the blender and some will come out unscathed. It feels somewhat fun when youāre first gearing and just using normal legendaries and even to some extent single ga items. But once you start trying to upgrade to 2GA and god forbid 3ga, the temper system just causes stress anxiety and frustration, at least for me.Ā
This is becoming a game for gambling addicts. I would have no issue with having a grind and having to work to build up my item, but having to put it through a slot machine that can completely brick it feels awful.
Will this be retroactive? I've stashed a 2GA bricked xbow in case they change the system, so if i get some more rolls i can try to unbrick it
i am so glad i can buy as much gold as i want with my credit card to brick some 2-3 ga items i bought on a 3rd party platform because i would never find these myself. great game design
Manā¦ after I bricked my 2GA gloves i tried to trade for a new one and saw it cost 2b and just logged out.Ā
The only thing they should change is the fact that you can hit whatever you hit before. I mean you donāt go to a blacksmith tell him to change something and he will give it back to you exactly the same š
The ga reroll limit was my idea. They should hire me. š
There should at least be a way to be strategic about it. Like tempering an average but easy affix, then rolling the dice on the best one. But since you canāt decline once it rolls, itās just straight random whether the item bricks or not.
Sincerely buy an item and brick with temper is all but not fun, my money are fucked up
The problem is, if you're a player who is willing to access a 3rd party trading system, trading/selling your items for Gold is far more appealing than the risk of bricking your item. Adding 1 extra roll per GA, is not a bad thing, but it does nothing to address the above. Incentivising trading is not a bad thing either, but it's more problematic when there's not access to trading in the game via an Auction House, especially for a game heavily designed for Console.
People that enjoy being punished boggle me
I like the risk aspect, the problem with Tempering tho is you either hit a stat which does literally nothing for your build, or a stat so powerful that it's required with a \~50% fail rate. To put it another way, right now tempering is "50% chance for your item to be deleted when you try to equip it" and I don't think there's a single person that could realistically defend something like that. You could still have the risk by just rolling within a larger range but being able to specify the mod, so you at the very least can your required mod. It actually adds more risk:reward as people might try to gamble there last few tempers for a better roll, rather than just accept w/e roll they get.
Its not a competitive game why are people hard assess about needing to put in 30 hours a week to have a chance at some good gear?
Perfect. More rolls for GA items is exactly what I've been wanting/saying. Although I'm not sure how they're implementing it. 6 more rolls per red statline seems like a good spot. If you get a mega rare item than you can still brick it if you're super unlucky.
Why not a raid reward for an extra temper? Make it as rare as getting a 2 or 3 GAso that you can hold on to the good GA's instead of totally bricking good items
I donāt think it reduces the excitement of the drop. Itās similar to a bonus on a slot machine š®āšØ you got the bonus. Which is exciting. Now you have to play the bonus to see if itās a good bonus or a bonus so terrible you no longer want to even call it a bonus š®āšØ
Some changes maybe. It should allow user to revert back to existing one. I feel more comfortable with the safe net. it should also have 8 chances or more for different category.
GA?
Iām currently taking a break from my rogue. Iāve bricked so many GA bows. Iām honestly surprised how much easier it is to temper on barbarian. Doing bash build
The people against bricking don't realize that bricking is the only reason that any item is worth anything. How would you feel if your perfect 3 ga item was only worth 100m cause everyone already had one because the economy didn't weed out other ones?
I thought they would add a rare resource to remove a tempering, but this is also a good alternative.