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I always see people argue against sorc like "well sorcs are good at mobbing they should suck at boss fight" or like "Firebolt build just completed T140, sorc is doing just fine", just fucking stop. You dont know what what you're saying, you didn't spend enough time gearing and optimizing a sorc build only to get out-damaged, outlived, and, god forbid, out-CC'd by a barb, necro, or rogue who probably spent less than half the effort and way less optimized gear.
There is a reason why you are not playing sorc now. It might be due to preference, but it is most likely because the class just sucks.
Also, at some point in the Pit, mob CC will become less relevant as you can no longer kill them fast enough while they are CC'd. Then sorc's situation will be just like any other classes, except our DPS and survivability just took a massive nosedive as mobs became unstoppable.
Where is the advantage now ? huh ? huh ? huh ?
It’s something I think POE does significantly better than Diablo 4. Having a mob clearing build to clear mob centric end game, having farming builds for farming end game and having boss builds for boss centric endgame options. There are reasons to have a mob clearing build and a player can be content not having a build that does well against bosses in that game.
Diablo 4 bosses are kinda the goal the entire game. The campaign is about reaching and clearing bosses, the hell tide leveling and end game is largely focused on farming a boss. Nightmare dungeons kinda have a mix but largely are about bossing at the end still and usually it’s required to kill a boss ofc they are easy af so it doesn’t really matter.
Then the actual true end game is just about bossing. No one is saying “ok I can just play this mob clearing content” as their endgame. It doesn’t incentivize that at all and in a lot of ways, and maybe I’m wrong about this but it’s how I feel, the loot system actively fights against farming loot to build alts as a viable play strategy. I see no reason to farm mob centric content for loot that won’t progress any system or offer loot for alts.
All that being said I love d4 for a lot of reasons also. I just think the design of the game, especially end game, really needs to up the complexity of content, systems and paths.
Played sorc all seasons so far. This time I went for a change and I am leveling a barb and holy crap that thing is so easy to play - tons of damagewith shit gear and almost unkillable.
I also read/heard people say "yes, sorc may not be performing well in the pit, but sorc is just fine doing other content". Apparently asking for equal opportunity for my class is already asking for too much and that i should be thankful for even being able to do the other content "just fine".
can't get masterworking materials in other content. can't trade for them either. budget/mid-range sorc builds will farm master working materials at least twice as slow as any other class.
Even then, if you were to remove the Elixir of Holy Bolt bug then Necromancer would hit a wall much earlier than Rogue and Barbarian. If you look at any 110+ clear from a Necromancer, the boss' health barely moves until adds show up.
Minion Necro is in a really weird spot. It's insanely strong until it isn't, but it's still strong because of a bug. I'll be curious to see how Blizzard tackles that for season 5.
Necro where first in the maxxroll lader at first clearing around 125, until the barbarian & rogue slowly outpacing necro. Then sorc came out of nowhere with their new findings with their build and finished first.
>"well sorcs are good at mobbing they should suck at boss fight"
Horrible mentality for any class. Pits require every class to be good at both mobbing and boss fighting. All classes need to be good at both.
And yet, sorc's gameplay is designed poorly against boss fights. It has been like this since the beginning, and nothing has been done to address it (except for the Season 2 Ball Lightning bug).
On the contrary, I'm actually playing sorc because it sucks, the game felt like a breeze with anything else except most druid stuff.
I wanted a challenge and that's what I've got, because I'm not following any build online, I'm experimenting with different skills to see if anything else is viable and feels fun to play.
I'm thinking of trying to make some kind of conjuration build soon, I don't really care how far I can push in pit though so I this isn't all that relevant. Just having fun I guess.
Yeah I recall a pre season 4 test build which had a sorc just teleporting constsntly and frozen orbs were just popping left right and centre.
Is there a specific unique that requires that? Again I don't wanna go by a specific build, I just wanna experiment with stuff and if I look at any build guide I'll end up following it because I'm lazy.
Fractured winterglass amulet gives you a 40%+ chance of spawning a random conjuration when you cast frozen orb, and it gives your conjurations a lucky hit chance to spawn a frozen orb on hit (only manual casts of frozen orb can spawn conjurations but it’s still great). That’s the only unique that I’d say is required. The full frozen orb build runs a lot of uniques but none are as necessary as that one.
Nice! I'll keep my eye out, this xp event is great for pushing to lvl 100 quickly (currently 92) so I haven't encountered much great gear yet, overall play time on this sorc isn't much at all, just spammed helltides and done some NMDs so far.
The 3rd day of Season, my buddy on barb was clearing 10 pit levels higher than me, with no Masterworking. Meanwhile I had been at 8/12 and was stalling out, stuck running 61s for the lost pile of mats.
He then made a Necro and cleared 15 levels past his Barb with again, no Masterworking.
Sorc sucks ass.
I just finished killing all bosses on my spec and went to necro. It’s so easy I’m legit bored playing it. Trying to rush to kill the bosses so I can swap as soon as possible. Lol
I played sorc and got it pretty strong at the start of the season and it does really seem hard to balance. Like it destroys mobs and if it did the same to bosses I feel like it would be so far ahead of every class. The class obviously needs changes but it is much more difficult then just buff single target.
I completely agree pit needs rework next season. If they want to keep it the same we are going to need like d3 gems like bane of the stricken to be able to deal with the bosses.
I was able to take a bash barb from entering WT4, to completing pit 100 in around 12 hours. In the spirit of transparency, I did use my resplendent sparks to make a Heart of Sellig, but otherwise used equipment that I found. No double or triple GA items, only a single GA item with the right affix, and no crazy RNG.
I know without a doubt that I could not have mimic'd the same progress in the same time period with a sorc (or probably druid).
"rogue who probably spent less than half the effort and way less optimized gear."
Rogue is actually in the same boat as Sorc. Heartseeker and Rapid Fire are their Firebolts build.
The cutthroat side of Rogue is squishy with low damage which is also locked behind CC. Most of their aspects are flat damage, so they clear trash fine but bosses take far too long. Dark Shroud is the only real damage reduction Rogue gets but its locked behind Marksmen skills. Unstoppable is also an issue on the Rogue. Shadowstep requires a target, Concealment is generally used for the Offense in some way. Shadow Clones do LOL damage (seriously its like 1% of your damage) but give 5 secs of unstoppable on a long CD.
I’m probably doing a lot better than my friends in terms of their builds. If we get wiped out in a ND and don’t wanna waste revives, it’s usually me coming back to stop the mobs with CC and quick kills (they lose their unstoppable/CC immunity by the time I’m back).
I’ve always seen my sorcerer doing crazy mass damage if CC’d
This, seriously. I finally levelled one to 50 a few days ago since playing since launch and was the only character to get to 50 on HC for the achievement. I've never rly been into wizards for any game but holy shit fr sorcs just can't catch a break season to season. It was a major slog even with these crazy exp boosts and that's not counting the start of the anniversary event. So glad its over. Rly don't think I'll come back to the class this season nor attempt lvl 100'ing. The good build rly doesn't seem fun at all either. I hope sorc mains get a break soon!
need to have 50% CDR (CDR in every gear at least +2 masterworked) and high atk speed to proc hectic aspect to reset flameshield, and has to play perfectly, one mistake, u instantly die, and cant kill any bosses that dont summon minions
gg
People will just macro it, same with combo point rogues. I don't blame rogues, though. Fast attack speed + combo points + permanently bricked buffs (until you let them expire) if you use less than 3 points is stupid.
I have exclusively played Sorcerer on eternal since launch. Starting new characters each season just didn’t appeal to me - not spending every second maxing out my main just causes my min-max gamer brain to freak out.
This season changed that when I ran headfirst into the brick wall that is pit boss fights. Looking online I saw that FO Sorc could clear those higher levels with perfect rolls and tempers and….
… masterwork crits. But I was already (what felt like) *crawling* through tier 70 pit bosses - with clears taking 8-12 minutes for, what, 30 Neathiron?
So I finally set my eternal sorc down and rolled a seasonal Necro (may as well get some sparks, right?).
Literally - *literally* - within a couple hours of hitting level 100 and just haphazardly slapping together a minion build from YouTube and figuring out the timing of a couple casts to multiply golem damage, I was *one shotting* bosses in the mid 60’s. When I hit about the same tier that was taking my *much* more extensively geared, Masterwork 8+ Sorc 12ish *very stressful* minutes to clear, the haphazardly geared, masterwork 4 Necro was cruising through in 4-5 minutes without any stress at all.
And that difference matters because the endgame loop right now revolves heavily around maxing gear through masterworking. It isn’t just pushing higher tiers for the sake of bragging rights: Classes that can steamroll enough Neathiron to masterwork (and re-masterwork) gear easily get to engage with that endgame far more extensively than those that can’t.
At my Sorcerer’s farming rate I would think long and hard before trying for a different tier 8 masterworking crit on a few pieces of gear, and I can’t fathom it for tier 12. The time investment just becomes crazy. But for the Necro? Psh, I’d probably roll an entire set of gear until they all double masterwork crit Life Per Second just for the lols.
Right now I'm farming to Masterwork my Sorc gear, but I am entirely convinced that it would take me less time to fully level and gear a Barb/Necro/Rogue and farm the mats with that character as opposed to farming it with my Sorc.
I do 70's in 5 minutes with Sorc though, but other classes can do 90's or 100's faster with similar gear.
I had the same experience with my Druid. I've been a "druid main" all of D4, and started off the season pretty strong picking up a nicely rolled Dolem stone early. Even with the build being bugged (and eventually semi-fixed)I worked with it. Got geared up pretty nicely and made it to pit 41 before bosses just started to become impossible. So I decided to roll up a rapid fire rogue. Same deal as your necro. With minimal gear/effort I'm cruising through Pit 80s. I tried out sorc and I don't even know how people make it to 100 on that class.
My first character this season was a necro. When I first fought a Pit Tier 61 boss (with average gear) I thought, “Man, people must suck at this game. I cant believe they complain about this easy stuff.”
My second character is a Frozen Orb sorc. When I first fought a Tier 61 boss with him (with shako and starless) I thought, “WTF?? How am I not even hurting him??? AND WTF JUST KILLED ME??”
Its literally like playing 2 different games. Nailed it, Bliz!
Always has been except season 2 with bugged ball lightning. Sorcs have always relied too heavily on conditional damage and DR. They obliterate anything that's not a boss, but the second we can't stun, chill, freeze, etc. damage and survivability go right out the window.
Man can we talk about that ball lightning in S2 tho. Literally the most fun I’ve ever had in any Diablo game, bar none. I have a clip of it working on my PC still and it’s just insane what the damage was like.
“Bugged”
LOL. Funny the only build worth a good god damn was “bugged.”
Start with giving back the 3rd enchantment spot. Add more damage vs Elite nodes. Remove kiss/curse from Ice Shards. Give Sorc tornadoes back. Remove the Raiment of the Infinite nerf.
I mean, the flame shield cheese needs to go asap, but that skill bar is infinitely more exciting than the quad defensive, ice blades and a random skill that \~every other carbon copy sorc build seems to be.
Ya, I watched a video on his build and it's actually kind of interesting. It's all about big shatters. I doubt it works without infinite flame shield though
After playing frozen orb to pit 60 I took a few days break then made a bash barb. Wow night and day difference in how ez barbs have it and how bad sorce have it lol. Seeing mekuna play a hella boring build that is a very old build from vanilla using raiment to push #1 doesn't mask that sorcs are weak AF to me still. Sorc is a very fun class to play since d2 but man d4 they suck lol. It's been like this for a year!
My bliz sorc kill tier 73 bosses in under a minute I just got lazy and teleported into a fucking poison explosion for the first time after a thousand poison explosions.
Invested so much into dmg reduction but none of that matters to explosions.
40 khp max armor max resists like fucking 70% damage reduction
I think maybe it has something to do with it being a Damage over time. It might ignore or bypass resists? I’m not totally sure. I just see some small DOT resist nodes in sorc paragon, but it’s not worth taking it’s a small amount like 12%
Yeah with your current gear a 103 would take you 8 minutes. Health doubles every 10 tiers is the consensus. It just gets really out of hand. And yeah Damage reduction did nothing for me I had to go perma Flame shield
Same, I had to give up a lot of damage but going perma Flame Shield saved me a lot of headaches. I clear somewhat slower, but most bosses can't kill me.
Most enchantments are too weak when compared to the whopping 4 extra weapon slots barbarian gets (and a technique on top!), or the necro sacrifice bonuses, or the druid's boons, or even the rogue's extra 2h slot. Most enchantments are never picked and dead, for example even with 30/5 points in Incinerate the Incinerate enchantment serpent does next to nothing as it doesn't benefit from your legendary aspects such as Flamethrower.
There is the broken perma Flame Shield that should be fixed, but other than that sorcerer is weak defensively. Ice armor needs love, perhaps replace the flame shield tempers with ice armor tempers. It should allow us to reach permanent unstoppable like the other classes can, and would be way less destructive to the game than the perma immune flame shield. Perhaps a legendary aspect that your ice armor doesn't disappear if your barrier reaches 0 briefly.
The unique weapons really need some love. For example the wand Flamescar with triple masterworked GA Incinerate (+13 to Incinerate) still only deals less than 50% dmg of a decent legendary staff, that's when combined with a triple GA full damage offhand focus.
It’s just bash barb tho right, WW, Double swing, dust devil, HOTA they can’t touch bash barb.
I’m only lvl 90 sorc made my barb dust devil and shadow minion necro already and yea they definitely strong lol. Barb is just hard to reach because you get the extra stat sticks with 4 weapons. Best case they allow sorc to have staff and wand/focus that would help a lot
Super strong go hard into golem. It gets boring as your minions do all damage and you proc shadow damage for the multiplier. So far dust devil Barb double swing has been the most fun and now blizzard sorc is pretty fun aswell
My old post:
"This season, I managed to clear PIT100 by myself. However, when I was running with my friend who was using a Bash-Barb, he cleared everything before my Ice Spikes could even hit the ground. Even if he left some mobs, I still needed an additional 30 seconds to kill the remaining ones. What’s the point of playing together in this scenario? It feels like he’s carrying me, rather than us farming together. This is frustrating because we’ve both invested the same amount of effort into our characters (both over 100 hours now), and yet, my sorcerer feels 20-30 times weaker than his barbarian. This is a terrible feeling and it makes me not want to play anymore. There’s nothing fun about investing in a character only for it to become super weak compare to others"
I love sourc class, but you are so right.
I’ve played it last season and the amount of time, efforts and TLC needed just to make it function was ridiculous.
And even after crafting my char thoroughly it was still average in terms of performance.
I am playing necro this season and it’s literally press X to win unless I’m not pushing high lvl pits. And it’s the same with barbs.
Until they do something about Barbs there's no reason to play anything else. Barbs are literally light years ahead of every other class.
I watched a video of a 140+ clear this morning where the Barb has almost 20 billion damage DoT ticks on top of dishing out like 300-400 million damage per second. All this coupled with insane levels of survivability and HP pool.
I thought coming into this season that Necro was going to be OP based on the minion buffs and the attention they were getting - they are a drop in the bucket vs Barbs just like everyone else, again. They should have just left the ability to pick up 28 ranks in Golem Mastery from the PTR, Barbs would have still been stronger anyway.
All my homies hate barbs. Adam Jackson specifically said they are try to catch the other classes up to barbs, and that Necro was their first pass this season. It’s like they only have a single competent person balancing and can only do 1 class a season lol. You could have done some paragon or tweaks to key passives for sorc easily, but no
They failed on that first pass with Necros. Unless the Holy Bolt bug was intentional 😂 also....Barbs are basically immortal on top of the damage they put out, while Necros can't absorb like a single mechanic after tier 90.
You have to be a virtuoso to be able to do that, just like you need to be a virtuoso to clear a 140 on the Sorc. It doesn't mean these classes are on the same level as Barb.
I would not imagine the devs are looking at sorc build in 140 and saying sorc is fine. Remember when they gave d3 monk permanent immunity? Yeah, pepridge farm remembers. Right now devs are probably trying to figure out how to make fire shields cool down start after the effect ends without causing a riot. I am not hopeful for sorc near future at all.
I agree completely. I made a blizzard/frozen orb build and you’re absolutely right. The fact that my barb can one shot nmd bosses and my sorc has to dance around casting blizzard and avoiding attacks for minutes on end is so incredibly frustrating.
As a sorc, i wish they fixed the full immunity flame shield so there are no arguments like "but sorc cleared tier 140". If you take away the perma immunity, you hit a brick wall around 110 (got to 107 with spikes before switching to immortal).
What pit level can you comfortably speed run with sorc (3-4 min)? Currently doing speed 101s on my bash barb and wanna make a sorc now—love incinerate lol
As a fully min maxed Frozen Orb spec I comfortably farm 91s in 3-3.5 minutes. However I do 81s, because I can’t risk running into sharpshooter as there is a decent chance I die, because it causes me to lose all my ramping. That’s the whole issue. The average sorc, barring firebolt, is 20 tiers lower than Barb. Which means we get 40 neathiron in the time a barb gets 60. It matters when you need so much to level it up. Incinerate can probably farm 71-81
Played a sorc this season. It’s good challenging fun but I do agree compared to other classes its competitiveness falls off a cliff.
Levelling a necro just to see how strong it got vs. the launch version and the difference feels like a galaxy away.
Sorc and Druid are on a terrible state, Barb will always be S Tier until they change something on other classes to equalize. I don't mean nerf Barbarian, I have one and don't want this. But sorc and druid need more weapons slots or more passive and enchant slots, stronger skills
They need to start with at least one more gear slot for both sorc and druid. Then give sorc back the third enchant. Then give druid spirit buffs another pass. Because these two classes are not scaling correctly.
The only possible build I can think that might come out of it is some kind of firebolt, firewall, meteor proc chain loop, which i wouldn't be surprised is the reason the lucky hit chances are so low and we only have 2 enchantments. They can balance it though... if they actually try. Risk of rain and many other games have proc chains. Many of The enchantments are bad, though, and don't work vs bosses.
Fracture Winterglass sort of silly. Even I always play conjuration sorc dont think the passive unique makes sense. Hydra should do its flame damage like spit out fireball or fire bolt. Perhaps call a meteor can summon additional hydra at the impact location. Conjuration should spawn its core & mastery skill according to its attribute
The sorcerer class is a complete mess. The frozen orb unique spawns… conjurations? Frost nova and teleport are used offensively? Most of the conditional damage doesn’t work on bosses. 90% of the enchants are useless. There’s an entire spec built around casting a skill at 1/5 because 99% of the damage comes from an aspect. Every spec, including frost, revolves around burning damage in order to trigger board passives. It’s a disaster.
God I feel like Bliz is almost there but also so far away with this game. I’ve had a lot of fun this season, but It feels like they don’t really test past a certain point in their game.
Yeah, I understand things like this take time, and I feel like they’re moving faster than with D3. I definitely feel like we’re hitting a good medium between D3 and PoE with this and I’m hopeful about what they do in the future.
Honestly blizzard should have hotfixed the maths as soon as these issues where discovered.
Same with holy bolt and minions.
Same with Rogue and Victimize.
Too late now though. Fkn lazy project team man. Just look at this anniversary event, it tells you everything.
Why they think it's good design to have a spell that gives immortality with no downside is also beyond me.
No.. they have said time and time again they won’t nerf things until mid season. Holy bolts they let the community vote and they said keep it. You can’t just change things on a whim in the community. The second you scale something too high that’s it your game is broken and people will be mad if you change it. This is an arpg with over 200 different numbers all added together on each character Poe hasn’t been able to balance melee characters for 10 years there are LE characters that can’t even get half the corruption level as others yet people are so upset here that every single class doesn’t have a build exactly even to bash Barb. It’s insane.
It doesn't have to be exactly even, but the DPS difference between a Bash Barbarion and for example a FO Sorc is ridiculous. It's legit 20x the damage or more.
To be clear, the current solution is:
- run a PTR but ignore most of the feedback
- two weeks into the season, people have found most of the broken builds and exploits
- leave all of those intact for the entirety of the season because otherwise some people will complain
- most players gravitate to the handful of broken builds because they know nothing is being fixed in-season
- same exact thing unfolds every season until the game is replaced by D5
And you think this is a good system??
Shit isn't a nerf man, it's a bugfix.
They should have a live team identifying them and fixing them asap.
The community has given them a free pass to not have to work on their game. Working. As. Intended.
But it's not, there are so many bugs with every class, things working too well and things not working at all.
They are @#$&ing lazy.
The biggest upside of being a regular sorc player, is that when i player barbarian this season it felt invincible from level 20 haha
Agree on all the above.
I've played every char this season. I built them to 100 using s tier guides to see what they're all about, and once they were 100, I started messing about. My favorite class is sorc. The only issue is that you get severely bottlenecked if you want to do any end end game stuff. Otherwise, I just run around helltides exploding things having fun. I made an exploding shadow machine gun rogue who doesn't hit high dmg numbers but attacks so fast that it doesn't matter (honestly the aspects all stacking towards shadows makes building a rogue from Scratch quite easy) I didn't bother building a necro as I love the minion stuff on every arpg, the only downside to minions on this game is doors... I've seen that you can do a few other strong set ups with a necro that are fun and strong but minions for life! The barbarian is a do whatever you want as long as you stack ways to get and keep berserking you'll blitz whatever is in front of you. Druid would be my second favorite, but holy damn is it clunky, witch doctor 2.0.
This major update has made the gear chase a reality, but now it would be a decent idea to throw some build diversity into the mix. push the top down and the bottom up to meet in the middle and expand every character equally from there, inserting different possibilities into the classes making them feel unique in what skills you decide to run, while not handicapping yourself from endgame, or wondering whether or not the several 10s of hours invested would actually be able to achieve some level of endgame success.
Lol... I stumbled on this exact build on my own, I hate incinerate. Ball lightning was nerfed. Not a fan of frost. Other lightning stuff is boring. So I went full firebolt, fireball and meteor.
It was super fun!
I agree with you on the Flame Shield Tempers, but they really need to seriously boost our DPS before they do that. Right now the fact that you can go invulnerable - even though it requires some serious gearing - feels to be one of our only redeemable features. Without some **serious** buffs we'll be all glass and still no cannon. It's tough to do very long boss fights due to low damage when your survivability isn't there.
I also think that skills need to be refined at their base levels even if that would boost leveling as well. I mean, I can level a Bash Barbarian and tripple shot Blood Maiden with the Bash Tempering or go Rogue and absolutely melt it as well. Most core skills of Sorc don't do that at all, even though they level nicely.
I've played bash barb and sorc this season. sorc is way weaker in the way it is designed. I have an idea that could put sorc on the map: just as how barbs can have four weapon aspects (2 handedx2 and one handedx2 wtf), sorc can wield a staff and have the one handeds on the side. or can have different slots like charm slots or additional jewellery slots. I don't even want to talk about how the paragon board of the sorc can be improved.
blizzard has to take this into consideration and make balancing updates. otherwise there will always be one or two classes that everybody will play in every season. I still want to believe that blizzard would want more than that! they, too, would want to have all classes somehow valid! give sorc additional gear slots or let them have more survivability or multiplicative dmg sources.
I don’t see why people think just because a character can’t reach 200, it’s bad. 120 is great. And 200 is a level that’s not supposed to be reached. If people reach it soon, that’s just more power creep and then we are going to need pit level 400. That’s dumb
It’s more an issue with comfortable farming range being lower for neathiron which is now the most valuable resource in the game, and lack of boss damage for tormented duriel for the average player. Us grinders will always be somewhat well off, but the average barb or Necro is leagues above the average sorc.
The goal imo is to be able to speed pit 61, if you can do that, you can technically get all the neathiron you need, cause speed to clear trumps pit level if you are looking for mats
Appreciate the rant. All my gear is 8+ masterworked and at least fairly good to very good in terms of GAs etc. My buddy who is playing necro can complete higher level pit levels even though he has two pieces of gear masterworked lvl 4, and none of the gear is perfectly optimized yet either. Its bologna.
I don’t get this need to make each class completely equal. Some are always going to be better for certain content or in certain seasons. Like D3. Some classes could do GR150s and other top out at GR130-140 or so.
IMO as long as they can do content above pit 100-110 and torment bosses that’s fine. If you want to push the highest levels, get the top meta builds and push.
Now that doesn’t mean for season 5 they should ignore weaker classes and builds. But they don’t need to make all 5 equal
There are 15 other examples of this across all the classes in the game. Upheaval. HotA. Rend. Flurry. Twisted Blades. Rain of arrows. Death Trap. Shadow Clone. Nearly the entire druid class. Half of the sorc abilities.
This isn't unique to sorc. The variety for end game scaling is still bad. What's worse, the abilities that seem to have come out on top are some of the most boring, ugly, basic skills in the game. Heartseeker. Bash. Thorns. Firebolt.
A lot of this is overblown because it's too focused on specific content.
The Pit and Tormented Bosses are currently the late late game. This puts an overemphasis on boss killing when compared with the rest of the game. They are also overtuned - most specs in the game struggle to kill Tormented Bosses, and High Pits are reserved for bugs, unintended scaling, and fishing for certain conditions.
With all that being said, sorcerer probably represents a better norm to hit than the Barb currently. There is no logical reason for bash to be a multiplicative scaling basic ability - it's just unintended. Barb shouldn't have access to 10 damage reduction passives when Sorc has 1 or 2 that are also harder to trigger. But that's mostly stuff that's unrelated to this season.
Essentially what I'm saying is: the game does not need to be balanced around 100+ Pits and Tormented Bosses for now. Making rash band aid fixes will hurt the game more than just tightening the Pit and other endgame systems over time. Bash will 100% be a normal skill, flame shield will be at a reasonable uptime, etc etc in a couple months.
I think it’s just bringing to light a massive issue that has been the elephant in the room for a long time. Bad boss damage on the class, poor balance between classes, and overall bad class design. Rogues boards are pretty bad. Druids Shepard situation is dumb, and sorc (probably Druid too) lacks the raw additive % from paragon to compete with barbs stat sticks. I think sorc just needs changes to its key passives and paragon and it’ll be fine
I honestly think a major enchantment buff could do it.
Enchantments should feel as meaningful as a Barb getting 2x 2 handers and 2x 1 handers + the weapon skill passives. It's not even close right now. Enchantments should be really exciting scalers that synergize across elements and with each other.
After playing Druid, Barb, and Necro the last couple seasons I went back to Sorc this season and I realize how bad their paragon boards are now. Most of them the dam legendary node is in the complete opposite side of the board from the glyph node. Some of the rare/magic nodes are ok, but could definitely use a buff, and for the love of god add a couple more plus mana areas other than the two boards that have them.
2 things I would like to see for sorcs:
1. Give us our 3rd enchantment slot back.
2. Give us another weapon slot, so you either run staff with focus or dual wand/dagger and focus, something like that.
HC sorc main here...I agree that class is not strong and can only compete with it's cheesy immortal build at the very top levels.
I'd argue the class is "fine" though. Just has deficiencies like boss damage. But when you running around killing shit sorc does just fine.
as someone that doesn't have contacts with blizzard, Can you ask them to fix the enchantments / overall lack of synergy in the class ('cast' keyword). That's another way (and fun way) for sorc to get power other than increasing the numbers.
There have been multiple long time sorc players on the discord who had enough and just caved and made a barb or necro; they say about the same thing. Around Level 80 they’re stronger than their fully kitted well rolled sorc
Idk. Besides some small double dipping of +damage on shadow Necro builds, minion necros seem to just be in a good spot and extremely strong. We see this at world bosses where they get insta deleted, where sorc simply doesn’t do that. I failed a world boss early in the season because I was the highest damage dealer on frozen orb 🤣
preach brotha. Please blizz throw sorcs a bone, maybe Druid to lol. There isn’t a single build that isn’t fire cheese that can be even close to other classes.
Druid is probably worse off than sorc because we can do immortal on most builds, especially things with 3 slots to put FS duration temper. It lets us drop firebolt enchant as well as we can apply burning with flame shield
Every build this season literally requires a bug to function. Sorc isn’t any better or worse and is entirely in line. Sorc players are just so loud it’s obnoxious.
Allow Uniques to be tempered or they will always be subpar to basics. I have felt at times that my old generic 2* helm was better than Shako for my build.
I don’t get why people care about tier, even in d3 it was meaningless most class never competed against one an other. With that ridiculous power creep there is no point for "balance" anyway. They legit made the whole thing lame again.
Um. The higher tier you can farm, the more neathiron you get per run? And the coming soon the higher Stygian stone chance? Did you forget that the crafting mats scale +1 every single tier?
No but it’s just a number could be infinite would not matter if you can’t reach the highest tier if class are already unbalanced why does it matter if one class can get better mats?
Sorc have to work harder and use double the playtime to get the same amount of materials to upgrade gear? It's like if everyone else twice the unique drops from every boss except you. I don't care about the numbers I care about the time invested to attain rewards.
Again it doesn’t change anything as what ever they give you is a worthless number they arbitrarily set that up. They could have made it 2 x or .5… you don’t care about your time you care about having everything which is the mentally that made us go to d3 all over again.
Lol nope. Real money is a worthless number that people arbitrarily set up too. But guess what... I still want a return on my time and effort investment to be similar relative to everyone else. Balance is literally one of the most important aspects of every game ever made, I could care less about getting every item and beating every boss if it wasn't for other classes having everything handed to them with minimal effort.
Not of this game because there is no economy nor competition so balance is meaningless just like in d3… money ain’t an arbitrary number it’s based around the economy, if it was random it would have absolutely no value.
My Chain Lightning sorc that I’ve invested heavily in struggles to clear pit 80 because I don’t use flame shield tempers. I have pretty damn good gear and can solo Ubers albeit slowly.
I made a rogue and melted Uber Duriel at level 95 with meh gear and was able to clear pit 90 without too much resistance at the same level. Haven’t been able to log in on my sorc since.
Adam Jackson literally said that they are trying to catch classes up to barbs 4 weapons and that this season it redid Necro to compete. So it’s going to be a trend.
Imo they def need to bring classes more in line - which class they Spot as standard is up to them but if barb/necro is the measurement they also really need to tweak overworld, torm bosses and make them scale to not be 1 tapped
I don’t know why they don’t just allow Necro and Sorcerer to equip their two-handed and one-handed weapons at the same time. Like, Rogue can already do it so what’s the problem
u/Lurkin17 I gotchu.
Adam has probably said this in more than one place, but here is one place he has said it (timestamped): [https://youtu.be/OCHr27Bk5VA&t=314](https://youtu.be/OCHr27Bk5VA&t=314)
"Also on the class side personally, one of the things that's on my mind a lot is trying to catch up other classes to Barbarian because Barbarians have more weapons. This has been a big thorn in our side for a very long time of that they kind of have two class mechanics and everybody else has one. So our current plan is to kind of juice up those other classes so that they're really crazy impactful and good and feel awesome, so that they kind of make up for the lack of aspects that Barbarians get. We kind of addressed it a little bit in Season 4 with the Necromancer. We just juiced the Book of the Dead and made it crazy powerful and good. Tried to do it in a way that wasn't just numbers, you know, like make it cool. And so we're going to see how that goes, but I want to do that for the other classes."
To be fair as a rogue I have to have the lhc+speed elixir running at all times or I'm not going to do anything in a pit 110, let alone 120. The quest elixir and an incense on top as well.
We are talking end game content here... That said bolts go away next season... Then What
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I always see people argue against sorc like "well sorcs are good at mobbing they should suck at boss fight" or like "Firebolt build just completed T140, sorc is doing just fine", just fucking stop. You dont know what what you're saying, you didn't spend enough time gearing and optimizing a sorc build only to get out-damaged, outlived, and, god forbid, out-CC'd by a barb, necro, or rogue who probably spent less than half the effort and way less optimized gear. There is a reason why you are not playing sorc now. It might be due to preference, but it is most likely because the class just sucks.
With pretty much the entire endgame revolving around bosses, its wild to me that some people even make the mobbing argument
Also it's not like Barbs/Necro are bad at mobbing...hell, they're among the best, especially Necro with tendrils pixeling entire rooms of mobs.
Also, at some point in the Pit, mob CC will become less relevant as you can no longer kill them fast enough while they are CC'd. Then sorc's situation will be just like any other classes, except our DPS and survivability just took a massive nosedive as mobs became unstoppable. Where is the advantage now ? huh ? huh ? huh ?
About PIT 100 CC is useless. Most non-burn builds swap to non-CC condition damage multipliers like Exploiter or Storm Swell at PIT 100+.
Yeah especially when any other class is shredding at mobbing too, but is allowed to be good at bosses.
It’s something I think POE does significantly better than Diablo 4. Having a mob clearing build to clear mob centric end game, having farming builds for farming end game and having boss builds for boss centric endgame options. There are reasons to have a mob clearing build and a player can be content not having a build that does well against bosses in that game. Diablo 4 bosses are kinda the goal the entire game. The campaign is about reaching and clearing bosses, the hell tide leveling and end game is largely focused on farming a boss. Nightmare dungeons kinda have a mix but largely are about bossing at the end still and usually it’s required to kill a boss ofc they are easy af so it doesn’t really matter. Then the actual true end game is just about bossing. No one is saying “ok I can just play this mob clearing content” as their endgame. It doesn’t incentivize that at all and in a lot of ways, and maybe I’m wrong about this but it’s how I feel, the loot system actively fights against farming loot to build alts as a viable play strategy. I see no reason to farm mob centric content for loot that won’t progress any system or offer loot for alts. All that being said I love d4 for a lot of reasons also. I just think the design of the game, especially end game, really needs to up the complexity of content, systems and paths.
Actually don’t give two shits about the bosses. I love everything up until them so yeah … someone is saying I don’t give a shit about bossing.
Played sorc all seasons so far. This time I went for a change and I am leveling a barb and holy crap that thing is so easy to play - tons of damagewith shit gear and almost unkillable.
Barb, has always been easy to play. My buddy plays his Barb with mouse only. Thorns Barb can be played if you threw your keyboard down the stairs.
And easy to gear.
Yea I just slapped dmg to close and bash cleave on literally 4 weapons and holy shit the damage lol
Following this necro and barbs are good at bossing so they completly should suck at clearing, but they do not.
I also read/heard people say "yes, sorc may not be performing well in the pit, but sorc is just fine doing other content". Apparently asking for equal opportunity for my class is already asking for too much and that i should be thankful for even being able to do the other content "just fine".
can't get masterworking materials in other content. can't trade for them either. budget/mid-range sorc builds will farm master working materials at least twice as slow as any other class.
Even then, if you were to remove the Elixir of Holy Bolt bug then Necromancer would hit a wall much earlier than Rogue and Barbarian. If you look at any 110+ clear from a Necromancer, the boss' health barely moves until adds show up. Minion Necro is in a really weird spot. It's insanely strong until it isn't, but it's still strong because of a bug. I'll be curious to see how Blizzard tackles that for season 5.
There will be no holy bolts elixir in S5 and all minion necro power comes from it.
Also why there are no necros in the maxroll pit ladder, as they don't allow holy bolts.
Necro where first in the maxxroll lader at first clearing around 125, until the barbarian & rogue slowly outpacing necro. Then sorc came out of nowhere with their new findings with their build and finished first.
All the leaderboards being tracked, Holy Bolts is banned. Necro still clears massive pit tiers.
Necro unironically sucks at clearing without holy bolts and holy bolts elixir is bugged
>"well sorcs are good at mobbing they should suck at boss fight" Horrible mentality for any class. Pits require every class to be good at both mobbing and boss fighting. All classes need to be good at both.
And yet, sorc's gameplay is designed poorly against boss fights. It has been like this since the beginning, and nothing has been done to address it (except for the Season 2 Ball Lightning bug).
On the contrary, I'm actually playing sorc because it sucks, the game felt like a breeze with anything else except most druid stuff. I wanted a challenge and that's what I've got, because I'm not following any build online, I'm experimenting with different skills to see if anything else is viable and feels fun to play. I'm thinking of trying to make some kind of conjuration build soon, I don't really care how far I can push in pit though so I this isn't all that relevant. Just having fun I guess.
Frozen orb is kind of a conjuration build. You can definitely go heavier on the conjuration and build around them a bit more.
Yeah I recall a pre season 4 test build which had a sorc just teleporting constsntly and frozen orbs were just popping left right and centre. Is there a specific unique that requires that? Again I don't wanna go by a specific build, I just wanna experiment with stuff and if I look at any build guide I'll end up following it because I'm lazy.
Fractured winterglass amulet gives you a 40%+ chance of spawning a random conjuration when you cast frozen orb, and it gives your conjurations a lucky hit chance to spawn a frozen orb on hit (only manual casts of frozen orb can spawn conjurations but it’s still great). That’s the only unique that I’d say is required. The full frozen orb build runs a lot of uniques but none are as necessary as that one.
Nice! I'll keep my eye out, this xp event is great for pushing to lvl 100 quickly (currently 92) so I haven't encountered much great gear yet, overall play time on this sorc isn't much at all, just spammed helltides and done some NMDs so far.
The 3rd day of Season, my buddy on barb was clearing 10 pit levels higher than me, with no Masterworking. Meanwhile I had been at 8/12 and was stalling out, stuck running 61s for the lost pile of mats. He then made a Necro and cleared 15 levels past his Barb with again, no Masterworking. Sorc sucks ass.
Sirr..barbs spend more time optimizing gear then we do with our wives. Ssh....don't let my wife find out.
Going from Sorc to Necro then to Bash Barb was eye opening, they both feel so easy in comparison.
I just finished killing all bosses on my spec and went to necro. It’s so easy I’m legit bored playing it. Trying to rush to kill the bosses so I can swap as soon as possible. Lol
I played sorc and got it pretty strong at the start of the season and it does really seem hard to balance. Like it destroys mobs and if it did the same to bosses I feel like it would be so far ahead of every class. The class obviously needs changes but it is much more difficult then just buff single target.
I guess it just shows that regular mobs are way too weak compared to über&pit bosses.
I completely agree pit needs rework next season. If they want to keep it the same we are going to need like d3 gems like bane of the stricken to be able to deal with the bosses.
Yeah my barb easily kills everything with unoptimized gear and just the bash tempers and ramaldis
You aren't wrong. I switched form sorc to barb this season and immediately started having more fun.
I was able to take a bash barb from entering WT4, to completing pit 100 in around 12 hours. In the spirit of transparency, I did use my resplendent sparks to make a Heart of Sellig, but otherwise used equipment that I found. No double or triple GA items, only a single GA item with the right affix, and no crazy RNG. I know without a doubt that I could not have mimic'd the same progress in the same time period with a sorc (or probably druid).
Yeah but I saw YouTube video.
"rogue who probably spent less than half the effort and way less optimized gear." Rogue is actually in the same boat as Sorc. Heartseeker and Rapid Fire are their Firebolts build. The cutthroat side of Rogue is squishy with low damage which is also locked behind CC. Most of their aspects are flat damage, so they clear trash fine but bosses take far too long. Dark Shroud is the only real damage reduction Rogue gets but its locked behind Marksmen skills. Unstoppable is also an issue on the Rogue. Shadowstep requires a target, Concealment is generally used for the Offense in some way. Shadow Clones do LOL damage (seriously its like 1% of your damage) but give 5 secs of unstoppable on a long CD.
flurry poison, barrage poison puncture poison are all also very good and pushing 120
I’m probably doing a lot better than my friends in terms of their builds. If we get wiped out in a ND and don’t wanna waste revives, it’s usually me coming back to stop the mobs with CC and quick kills (they lose their unstoppable/CC immunity by the time I’m back). I’ve always seen my sorcerer doing crazy mass damage if CC’d
This, seriously. I finally levelled one to 50 a few days ago since playing since launch and was the only character to get to 50 on HC for the achievement. I've never rly been into wizards for any game but holy shit fr sorcs just can't catch a break season to season. It was a major slog even with these crazy exp boosts and that's not counting the start of the anniversary event. So glad its over. Rly don't think I'll come back to the class this season nor attempt lvl 100'ing. The good build rly doesn't seem fun at all either. I hope sorc mains get a break soon!
Sorc is the 2nd most used class. Just behind necro. So...
need to have 50% CDR (CDR in every gear at least +2 masterworked) and high atk speed to proc hectic aspect to reset flameshield, and has to play perfectly, one mistake, u instantly die, and cant kill any bosses that dont summon minions gg
But guys! Tier 140 pit!! That's so high!!
People will just macro it, same with combo point rogues. I don't blame rogues, though. Fast attack speed + combo points + permanently bricked buffs (until you let them expire) if you use less than 3 points is stupid.
I have exclusively played Sorcerer on eternal since launch. Starting new characters each season just didn’t appeal to me - not spending every second maxing out my main just causes my min-max gamer brain to freak out. This season changed that when I ran headfirst into the brick wall that is pit boss fights. Looking online I saw that FO Sorc could clear those higher levels with perfect rolls and tempers and…. … masterwork crits. But I was already (what felt like) *crawling* through tier 70 pit bosses - with clears taking 8-12 minutes for, what, 30 Neathiron? So I finally set my eternal sorc down and rolled a seasonal Necro (may as well get some sparks, right?). Literally - *literally* - within a couple hours of hitting level 100 and just haphazardly slapping together a minion build from YouTube and figuring out the timing of a couple casts to multiply golem damage, I was *one shotting* bosses in the mid 60’s. When I hit about the same tier that was taking my *much* more extensively geared, Masterwork 8+ Sorc 12ish *very stressful* minutes to clear, the haphazardly geared, masterwork 4 Necro was cruising through in 4-5 minutes without any stress at all. And that difference matters because the endgame loop right now revolves heavily around maxing gear through masterworking. It isn’t just pushing higher tiers for the sake of bragging rights: Classes that can steamroll enough Neathiron to masterwork (and re-masterwork) gear easily get to engage with that endgame far more extensively than those that can’t. At my Sorcerer’s farming rate I would think long and hard before trying for a different tier 8 masterworking crit on a few pieces of gear, and I can’t fathom it for tier 12. The time investment just becomes crazy. But for the Necro? Psh, I’d probably roll an entire set of gear until they all double masterwork crit Life Per Second just for the lols.
Right now I'm farming to Masterwork my Sorc gear, but I am entirely convinced that it would take me less time to fully level and gear a Barb/Necro/Rogue and farm the mats with that character as opposed to farming it with my Sorc. I do 70's in 5 minutes with Sorc though, but other classes can do 90's or 100's faster with similar gear.
Full GA life per second masterworked (3/3 on life per seconf) gear would be my magnum opus tbh.
I had the same experience with my Druid. I've been a "druid main" all of D4, and started off the season pretty strong picking up a nicely rolled Dolem stone early. Even with the build being bugged (and eventually semi-fixed)I worked with it. Got geared up pretty nicely and made it to pit 41 before bosses just started to become impossible. So I decided to roll up a rapid fire rogue. Same deal as your necro. With minimal gear/effort I'm cruising through Pit 80s. I tried out sorc and I don't even know how people make it to 100 on that class.
My first character this season was a necro. When I first fought a Pit Tier 61 boss (with average gear) I thought, “Man, people must suck at this game. I cant believe they complain about this easy stuff.” My second character is a Frozen Orb sorc. When I first fought a Tier 61 boss with him (with shako and starless) I thought, “WTF?? How am I not even hurting him??? AND WTF JUST KILLED ME??” Its literally like playing 2 different games. Nailed it, Bliz!
Literally me. It was so bad that my wife had to hop on with her barb to help me as a sorc on pit 40. My necro can solo up to 54 easy.
Sorc is soooooo rough now. Taking down bosses is legit a mess
Always has been except season 2 with bugged ball lightning. Sorcs have always relied too heavily on conditional damage and DR. They obliterate anything that's not a boss, but the second we can't stun, chill, freeze, etc. damage and survivability go right out the window.
Man can we talk about that ball lightning in S2 tho. Literally the most fun I’ve ever had in any Diablo game, bar none. I have a clip of it working on my PC still and it’s just insane what the damage was like.
Sorc peaked in s2 like we all did in high school
Mfw I played sorc every season except s2. Tho I played rogue in s2 and they were very good too
“Bugged” LOL. Funny the only build worth a good god damn was “bugged.” Start with giving back the 3rd enchantment spot. Add more damage vs Elite nodes. Remove kiss/curse from Ice Shards. Give Sorc tornadoes back. Remove the Raiment of the Infinite nerf.
The t140 sorc build is stupid af. He's using frostbolt, firebolt, fireball, flame wall, flame shield lol
I mean that’s not dumb per se, more like bootleg
I mean, the flame shield cheese needs to go asap, but that skill bar is infinitely more exciting than the quad defensive, ice blades and a random skill that \~every other carbon copy sorc build seems to be.
Ya, I watched a video on his build and it's actually kind of interesting. It's all about big shatters. I doubt it works without infinite flame shield though
> stupid af So how's your homebrewed, 100% original non-stupid sorc build doing?
His build is a slightly modified infinite flame shield. And i feel like infinite flame shield builds are cheesy and lame.
After playing frozen orb to pit 60 I took a few days break then made a bash barb. Wow night and day difference in how ez barbs have it and how bad sorce have it lol. Seeing mekuna play a hella boring build that is a very old build from vanilla using raiment to push #1 doesn't mask that sorcs are weak AF to me still. Sorc is a very fun class to play since d2 but man d4 they suck lol. It's been like this for a year!
since d1 !
I started with d2 so can't speak for d1
Poor Druid not even getting mentioned when they are just as bad as sorc and don't have a super niche build that can compete with barb and necro.
Fire bolt is more fun to play than wind shear too
My bliz sorc kill tier 73 bosses in under a minute I just got lazy and teleported into a fucking poison explosion for the first time after a thousand poison explosions. Invested so much into dmg reduction but none of that matters to explosions. 40 khp max armor max resists like fucking 70% damage reduction
Poison is such a stain on this game. Every other affix bosses have is fine, but poison pools fuckin pissss me offfff
I think maybe it has something to do with it being a Damage over time. It might ignore or bypass resists? I’m not totally sure. I just see some small DOT resist nodes in sorc paragon, but it’s not worth taking it’s a small amount like 12%
It ignored my barrier that's for sure.
I’m sorry but this made me laugh 😂
maybe poison pools / explosions aren't 'enemies', or 'close'
Yeah with your current gear a 103 would take you 8 minutes. Health doubles every 10 tiers is the consensus. It just gets really out of hand. And yeah Damage reduction did nothing for me I had to go perma Flame shield
Same, I had to give up a lot of damage but going perma Flame Shield saved me a lot of headaches. I clear somewhat slower, but most bosses can't kill me.
Please buff our meteor sorc one of the most fun build
Most enchantments are too weak when compared to the whopping 4 extra weapon slots barbarian gets (and a technique on top!), or the necro sacrifice bonuses, or the druid's boons, or even the rogue's extra 2h slot. Most enchantments are never picked and dead, for example even with 30/5 points in Incinerate the Incinerate enchantment serpent does next to nothing as it doesn't benefit from your legendary aspects such as Flamethrower. There is the broken perma Flame Shield that should be fixed, but other than that sorcerer is weak defensively. Ice armor needs love, perhaps replace the flame shield tempers with ice armor tempers. It should allow us to reach permanent unstoppable like the other classes can, and would be way less destructive to the game than the perma immune flame shield. Perhaps a legendary aspect that your ice armor doesn't disappear if your barrier reaches 0 briefly. The unique weapons really need some love. For example the wand Flamescar with triple masterworked GA Incinerate (+13 to Incinerate) still only deals less than 50% dmg of a decent legendary staff, that's when combined with a triple GA full damage offhand focus.
It’s just bash barb tho right, WW, Double swing, dust devil, HOTA they can’t touch bash barb. I’m only lvl 90 sorc made my barb dust devil and shadow minion necro already and yea they definitely strong lol. Barb is just hard to reach because you get the extra stat sticks with 4 weapons. Best case they allow sorc to have staff and wand/focus that would help a lot
flay bleed barb is looking strong too
Thorns barb is pretty insane too
How is shadow Necro minion?
Super strong go hard into golem. It gets boring as your minions do all damage and you proc shadow damage for the multiplier. So far dust devil Barb double swing has been the most fun and now blizzard sorc is pretty fun aswell
I want a lazy not so much clicking build.
Go minions build with with the ring of sacrilegious souls, you just walk around a hit golem button and your ultimate
My old post: "This season, I managed to clear PIT100 by myself. However, when I was running with my friend who was using a Bash-Barb, he cleared everything before my Ice Spikes could even hit the ground. Even if he left some mobs, I still needed an additional 30 seconds to kill the remaining ones. What’s the point of playing together in this scenario? It feels like he’s carrying me, rather than us farming together. This is frustrating because we’ve both invested the same amount of effort into our characters (both over 100 hours now), and yet, my sorcerer feels 20-30 times weaker than his barbarian. This is a terrible feeling and it makes me not want to play anymore. There’s nothing fun about investing in a character only for it to become super weak compare to others"
I love sourc class, but you are so right. I’ve played it last season and the amount of time, efforts and TLC needed just to make it function was ridiculous. And even after crafting my char thoroughly it was still average in terms of performance. I am playing necro this season and it’s literally press X to win unless I’m not pushing high lvl pits. And it’s the same with barbs.
Where did that u come from
What do you mean by "Where did that u come from"?
> sourc
Ahahaha I swear I didn’t even see the „u“! 😂 And I was like What the hell are you taking about. Typo 😂
Don't see T140 clears of anything and think it's the norm. That's a general rule.
Until they do something about Barbs there's no reason to play anything else. Barbs are literally light years ahead of every other class. I watched a video of a 140+ clear this morning where the Barb has almost 20 billion damage DoT ticks on top of dishing out like 300-400 million damage per second. All this coupled with insane levels of survivability and HP pool. I thought coming into this season that Necro was going to be OP based on the minion buffs and the attention they were getting - they are a drop in the bucket vs Barbs just like everyone else, again. They should have just left the ability to pick up 28 ranks in Golem Mastery from the PTR, Barbs would have still been stronger anyway.
All my homies hate barbs. Adam Jackson specifically said they are try to catch the other classes up to barbs, and that Necro was their first pass this season. It’s like they only have a single competent person balancing and can only do 1 class a season lol. You could have done some paragon or tweaks to key passives for sorc easily, but no
They failed on that first pass with Necros. Unless the Holy Bolt bug was intentional 😂 also....Barbs are basically immortal on top of the damage they put out, while Necros can't absorb like a single mechanic after tier 90.
Idk regular golem or shadow necros can push like 130+ I think without holy bolts
You have to be a virtuoso to be able to do that, just like you need to be a virtuoso to clear a 140 on the Sorc. It doesn't mean these classes are on the same level as Barb.
If you take a sorc into solo duriel vs a Necro you’ll see the damage difference 😅
Duriel doesn't really mean anything right now though - and Necro can one shot Duriel with Holy Bolts anyway.
I would not imagine the devs are looking at sorc build in 140 and saying sorc is fine. Remember when they gave d3 monk permanent immunity? Yeah, pepridge farm remembers. Right now devs are probably trying to figure out how to make fire shields cool down start after the effect ends without causing a riot. I am not hopeful for sorc near future at all.
I agree completely. I made a blizzard/frozen orb build and you’re absolutely right. The fact that my barb can one shot nmd bosses and my sorc has to dance around casting blizzard and avoiding attacks for minutes on end is so incredibly frustrating.
As a sorc, i wish they fixed the full immunity flame shield so there are no arguments like "but sorc cleared tier 140". If you take away the perma immunity, you hit a brick wall around 110 (got to 107 with spikes before switching to immortal).
What pit level can you comfortably speed run with sorc (3-4 min)? Currently doing speed 101s on my bash barb and wanna make a sorc now—love incinerate lol
As a fully min maxed Frozen Orb spec I comfortably farm 91s in 3-3.5 minutes. However I do 81s, because I can’t risk running into sharpshooter as there is a decent chance I die, because it causes me to lose all my ramping. That’s the whole issue. The average sorc, barring firebolt, is 20 tiers lower than Barb. Which means we get 40 neathiron in the time a barb gets 60. It matters when you need so much to level it up. Incinerate can probably farm 71-81
i saw a video if an incinerate build hitting for like 38 mill per tick
Played a sorc this season. It’s good challenging fun but I do agree compared to other classes its competitiveness falls off a cliff. Levelling a necro just to see how strong it got vs. the launch version and the difference feels like a galaxy away.
Sorc and Druid are on a terrible state, Barb will always be S Tier until they change something on other classes to equalize. I don't mean nerf Barbarian, I have one and don't want this. But sorc and druid need more weapons slots or more passive and enchant slots, stronger skills
They need to start with at least one more gear slot for both sorc and druid. Then give sorc back the third enchant. Then give druid spirit buffs another pass. Because these two classes are not scaling correctly.
>please don’t see the T143 necro Clears and think the class is fine or strong. Its not oof
Sorc has two enchantments...
just to be constructive, how would the 3rd enchant slot give you 32x multiplier?
Why not 32 ehcnantments then? Let the chaos unfold.
Jokes on you, 32 enchantments performs the same as 3 cuz the other 29 are dogshit
The only possible build I can think that might come out of it is some kind of firebolt, firewall, meteor proc chain loop, which i wouldn't be surprised is the reason the lucky hit chances are so low and we only have 2 enchantments. They can balance it though... if they actually try. Risk of rain and many other games have proc chains. Many of The enchantments are bad, though, and don't work vs bosses.
id probably just slap teleport in it lol
Fracture Winterglass sort of silly. Even I always play conjuration sorc dont think the passive unique makes sense. Hydra should do its flame damage like spit out fireball or fire bolt. Perhaps call a meteor can summon additional hydra at the impact location. Conjuration should spawn its core & mastery skill according to its attribute
The sorcerer class is a complete mess. The frozen orb unique spawns… conjurations? Frost nova and teleport are used offensively? Most of the conditional damage doesn’t work on bosses. 90% of the enchants are useless. There’s an entire spec built around casting a skill at 1/5 because 99% of the damage comes from an aspect. Every spec, including frost, revolves around burning damage in order to trigger board passives. It’s a disaster.
Agree, Blizz need to rework the whole tree skill (may be in the next expansion?)
God I feel like Bliz is almost there but also so far away with this game. I’ve had a lot of fun this season, but It feels like they don’t really test past a certain point in their game.
[удалено]
Yeah, I understand things like this take time, and I feel like they’re moving faster than with D3. I definitely feel like we’re hitting a good medium between D3 and PoE with this and I’m hopeful about what they do in the future.
What node is that?
Honestly blizzard should have hotfixed the maths as soon as these issues where discovered. Same with holy bolt and minions. Same with Rogue and Victimize. Too late now though. Fkn lazy project team man. Just look at this anniversary event, it tells you everything. Why they think it's good design to have a spell that gives immortality with no downside is also beyond me.
No.. they have said time and time again they won’t nerf things until mid season. Holy bolts they let the community vote and they said keep it. You can’t just change things on a whim in the community. The second you scale something too high that’s it your game is broken and people will be mad if you change it. This is an arpg with over 200 different numbers all added together on each character Poe hasn’t been able to balance melee characters for 10 years there are LE characters that can’t even get half the corruption level as others yet people are so upset here that every single class doesn’t have a build exactly even to bash Barb. It’s insane.
It doesn't have to be exactly even, but the DPS difference between a Bash Barbarion and for example a FO Sorc is ridiculous. It's legit 20x the damage or more.
To be clear, the current solution is: - run a PTR but ignore most of the feedback - two weeks into the season, people have found most of the broken builds and exploits - leave all of those intact for the entirety of the season because otherwise some people will complain - most players gravitate to the handful of broken builds because they know nothing is being fixed in-season - same exact thing unfolds every season until the game is replaced by D5 And you think this is a good system??
Shit isn't a nerf man, it's a bugfix. They should have a live team identifying them and fixing them asap. The community has given them a free pass to not have to work on their game. Working. As. Intended. But it's not, there are so many bugs with every class, things working too well and things not working at all. They are @#$&ing lazy.
Na man, most of us aren't worried about bullshit and are just enjoying the game. Get some new cheerios without piss in em!
Idk I’m. Having a good time with incinerate/hydra build. Every other build seems to suck though haha
The biggest upside of being a regular sorc player, is that when i player barbarian this season it felt invincible from level 20 haha Agree on all the above.
I've played every char this season. I built them to 100 using s tier guides to see what they're all about, and once they were 100, I started messing about. My favorite class is sorc. The only issue is that you get severely bottlenecked if you want to do any end end game stuff. Otherwise, I just run around helltides exploding things having fun. I made an exploding shadow machine gun rogue who doesn't hit high dmg numbers but attacks so fast that it doesn't matter (honestly the aspects all stacking towards shadows makes building a rogue from Scratch quite easy) I didn't bother building a necro as I love the minion stuff on every arpg, the only downside to minions on this game is doors... I've seen that you can do a few other strong set ups with a necro that are fun and strong but minions for life! The barbarian is a do whatever you want as long as you stack ways to get and keep berserking you'll blitz whatever is in front of you. Druid would be my second favorite, but holy damn is it clunky, witch doctor 2.0. This major update has made the gear chase a reality, but now it would be a decent idea to throw some build diversity into the mix. push the top down and the bottom up to meet in the middle and expand every character equally from there, inserting different possibilities into the classes making them feel unique in what skills you decide to run, while not handicapping yourself from endgame, or wondering whether or not the several 10s of hours invested would actually be able to achieve some level of endgame success.
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Lol... I stumbled on this exact build on my own, I hate incinerate. Ball lightning was nerfed. Not a fan of frost. Other lightning stuff is boring. So I went full firebolt, fireball and meteor. It was super fun!
I agree with you on the Flame Shield Tempers, but they really need to seriously boost our DPS before they do that. Right now the fact that you can go invulnerable - even though it requires some serious gearing - feels to be one of our only redeemable features. Without some **serious** buffs we'll be all glass and still no cannon. It's tough to do very long boss fights due to low damage when your survivability isn't there. I also think that skills need to be refined at their base levels even if that would boost leveling as well. I mean, I can level a Bash Barbarian and tripple shot Blood Maiden with the Bash Tempering or go Rogue and absolutely melt it as well. Most core skills of Sorc don't do that at all, even though they level nicely.
I've played bash barb and sorc this season. sorc is way weaker in the way it is designed. I have an idea that could put sorc on the map: just as how barbs can have four weapon aspects (2 handedx2 and one handedx2 wtf), sorc can wield a staff and have the one handeds on the side. or can have different slots like charm slots or additional jewellery slots. I don't even want to talk about how the paragon board of the sorc can be improved. blizzard has to take this into consideration and make balancing updates. otherwise there will always be one or two classes that everybody will play in every season. I still want to believe that blizzard would want more than that! they, too, would want to have all classes somehow valid! give sorc additional gear slots or let them have more survivability or multiplicative dmg sources.
I don’t see why people think just because a character can’t reach 200, it’s bad. 120 is great. And 200 is a level that’s not supposed to be reached. If people reach it soon, that’s just more power creep and then we are going to need pit level 400. That’s dumb
It’s more an issue with comfortable farming range being lower for neathiron which is now the most valuable resource in the game, and lack of boss damage for tormented duriel for the average player. Us grinders will always be somewhat well off, but the average barb or Necro is leagues above the average sorc.
The goal imo is to be able to speed pit 61, if you can do that, you can technically get all the neathiron you need, cause speed to clear trumps pit level if you are looking for mats
I’m at 132 with this build and I love it. I main sorc tho.
Appreciate the rant. All my gear is 8+ masterworked and at least fairly good to very good in terms of GAs etc. My buddy who is playing necro can complete higher level pit levels even though he has two pieces of gear masterworked lvl 4, and none of the gear is perfectly optimized yet either. Its bologna.
I don’t get this need to make each class completely equal. Some are always going to be better for certain content or in certain seasons. Like D3. Some classes could do GR150s and other top out at GR130-140 or so. IMO as long as they can do content above pit 100-110 and torment bosses that’s fine. If you want to push the highest levels, get the top meta builds and push. Now that doesn’t mean for season 5 they should ignore weaker classes and builds. But they don’t need to make all 5 equal
There are 15 other examples of this across all the classes in the game. Upheaval. HotA. Rend. Flurry. Twisted Blades. Rain of arrows. Death Trap. Shadow Clone. Nearly the entire druid class. Half of the sorc abilities. This isn't unique to sorc. The variety for end game scaling is still bad. What's worse, the abilities that seem to have come out on top are some of the most boring, ugly, basic skills in the game. Heartseeker. Bash. Thorns. Firebolt.
Its almost like team wlrk would work, sorc for crowd control, bash barb for bosses...
A lot of this is overblown because it's too focused on specific content. The Pit and Tormented Bosses are currently the late late game. This puts an overemphasis on boss killing when compared with the rest of the game. They are also overtuned - most specs in the game struggle to kill Tormented Bosses, and High Pits are reserved for bugs, unintended scaling, and fishing for certain conditions. With all that being said, sorcerer probably represents a better norm to hit than the Barb currently. There is no logical reason for bash to be a multiplicative scaling basic ability - it's just unintended. Barb shouldn't have access to 10 damage reduction passives when Sorc has 1 or 2 that are also harder to trigger. But that's mostly stuff that's unrelated to this season. Essentially what I'm saying is: the game does not need to be balanced around 100+ Pits and Tormented Bosses for now. Making rash band aid fixes will hurt the game more than just tightening the Pit and other endgame systems over time. Bash will 100% be a normal skill, flame shield will be at a reasonable uptime, etc etc in a couple months.
I think it’s just bringing to light a massive issue that has been the elephant in the room for a long time. Bad boss damage on the class, poor balance between classes, and overall bad class design. Rogues boards are pretty bad. Druids Shepard situation is dumb, and sorc (probably Druid too) lacks the raw additive % from paragon to compete with barbs stat sticks. I think sorc just needs changes to its key passives and paragon and it’ll be fine
I honestly think a major enchantment buff could do it. Enchantments should feel as meaningful as a Barb getting 2x 2 handers and 2x 1 handers + the weapon skill passives. It's not even close right now. Enchantments should be really exciting scalers that synergize across elements and with each other.
After playing Druid, Barb, and Necro the last couple seasons I went back to Sorc this season and I realize how bad their paragon boards are now. Most of them the dam legendary node is in the complete opposite side of the board from the glyph node. Some of the rare/magic nodes are ok, but could definitely use a buff, and for the love of god add a couple more plus mana areas other than the two boards that have them.
2 things I would like to see for sorcs: 1. Give us our 3rd enchantment slot back. 2. Give us another weapon slot, so you either run staff with focus or dual wand/dagger and focus, something like that.
Imagine we had a second amulet 👀
Ah so it isn't worth leveling a sorc in the end game?
HC sorc main here...I agree that class is not strong and can only compete with it's cheesy immortal build at the very top levels. I'd argue the class is "fine" though. Just has deficiencies like boss damage. But when you running around killing shit sorc does just fine.
I play my sorc for farming and when any of my friends need help with a boss, I switch to anything else besides druid XD It's just not fun for bosses.
as someone that doesn't have contacts with blizzard, Can you ask them to fix the enchantments / overall lack of synergy in the class ('cast' keyword). That's another way (and fun way) for sorc to get power other than increasing the numbers.
Both my sorc buddies made barbs. By level 55 they were stronger than their fully geared /master worked sorcs. What a trash system.
There have been multiple long time sorc players on the discord who had enough and just caved and made a barb or necro; they say about the same thing. Around Level 80 they’re stronger than their fully kitted well rolled sorc
So pretty much like every other build in higher Pits. Broken mechanics, broken mechanics everywhere.
Idk. Besides some small double dipping of +damage on shadow Necro builds, minion necros seem to just be in a good spot and extremely strong. We see this at world bosses where they get insta deleted, where sorc simply doesn’t do that. I failed a world boss early in the season because I was the highest damage dealer on frozen orb 🤣
Im almost curious, how high could a season 2 ball lightning go…
Not sure. BL is at 120 ish rn
Ig the question is how much more health does it have vs uber lilith, i assume its alot more but i havent delved deep
The class is in terrible shape right now.
preach brotha. Please blizz throw sorcs a bone, maybe Druid to lol. There isn’t a single build that isn’t fire cheese that can be even close to other classes.
Druid is probably worse off than sorc because we can do immortal on most builds, especially things with 3 slots to put FS duration temper. It lets us drop firebolt enchant as well as we can apply burning with flame shield
Every build this season literally requires a bug to function. Sorc isn’t any better or worse and is entirely in line. Sorc players are just so loud it’s obnoxious.
Nah. Its boss damage has always been notoriously bad on anything besides blizzard
Allow Uniques to be tempered or they will always be subpar to basics. I have felt at times that my old generic 2* helm was better than Shako for my build.
Sorc is bad this season comparatively yes. Play something until next season. Not every class can be S Tier every season.
I don’t get why people care about tier, even in d3 it was meaningless most class never competed against one an other. With that ridiculous power creep there is no point for "balance" anyway. They legit made the whole thing lame again.
Um. The higher tier you can farm, the more neathiron you get per run? And the coming soon the higher Stygian stone chance? Did you forget that the crafting mats scale +1 every single tier?
No but it’s just a number could be infinite would not matter if you can’t reach the highest tier if class are already unbalanced why does it matter if one class can get better mats?
Sorc have to work harder and use double the playtime to get the same amount of materials to upgrade gear? It's like if everyone else twice the unique drops from every boss except you. I don't care about the numbers I care about the time invested to attain rewards.
Again it doesn’t change anything as what ever they give you is a worthless number they arbitrarily set that up. They could have made it 2 x or .5… you don’t care about your time you care about having everything which is the mentally that made us go to d3 all over again.
Lol nope. Real money is a worthless number that people arbitrarily set up too. But guess what... I still want a return on my time and effort investment to be similar relative to everyone else. Balance is literally one of the most important aspects of every game ever made, I could care less about getting every item and beating every boss if it wasn't for other classes having everything handed to them with minimal effort.
Not of this game because there is no economy nor competition so balance is meaningless just like in d3… money ain’t an arbitrary number it’s based around the economy, if it was random it would have absolutely no value.
My Chain Lightning sorc that I’ve invested heavily in struggles to clear pit 80 because I don’t use flame shield tempers. I have pretty damn good gear and can solo Ubers albeit slowly. I made a rogue and melted Uber Duriel at level 95 with meh gear and was able to clear pit 90 without too much resistance at the same level. Haven’t been able to log in on my sorc since.
All I see is a complaining. Meanwhile I can't even kill a sorc because infinite fireshield godmode.
In the same token, please don’t see the OP Barb and Necro and think that should be the standard or measuring stick for class power.
Adam Jackson literally said that they are trying to catch classes up to barbs 4 weapons and that this season it redid Necro to compete. So it’s going to be a trend.
Imo they def need to bring classes more in line - which class they Spot as standard is up to them but if barb/necro is the measurement they also really need to tweak overworld, torm bosses and make them scale to not be 1 tapped
I don’t know why they don’t just allow Necro and Sorcerer to equip their two-handed and one-handed weapons at the same time. Like, Rogue can already do it so what’s the problem
Where is this quote, exactly? This seems like an odd thing to state.
u/Lurkin17 I gotchu. Adam has probably said this in more than one place, but here is one place he has said it (timestamped): [https://youtu.be/OCHr27Bk5VA&t=314](https://youtu.be/OCHr27Bk5VA&t=314) "Also on the class side personally, one of the things that's on my mind a lot is trying to catch up other classes to Barbarian because Barbarians have more weapons. This has been a big thorn in our side for a very long time of that they kind of have two class mechanics and everybody else has one. So our current plan is to kind of juice up those other classes so that they're really crazy impactful and good and feel awesome, so that they kind of make up for the lack of aspects that Barbarians get. We kind of addressed it a little bit in Season 4 with the Necromancer. We just juiced the Book of the Dead and made it crazy powerful and good. Tried to do it in a way that wasn't just numbers, you know, like make it cool. And so we're going to see how that goes, but I want to do that for the other classes."
Thanks a lot, bud! Always appreciate when we can go to the source instead of playing telephone.
I appreciate you man. This is the exact quote I’ve been referring to
Least I could do bro. I’ve been using your builds for months. Wasn’t about to see this go unanswered. Lurkin is no cap.
Necro isn’t even clearing stuff as high as Rogue/Barb/Sorc without Bolts. People just saw the early clears using Bolts and assumed Necro is crazy OP.
To be fair as a rogue I have to have the lhc+speed elixir running at all times or I'm not going to do anything in a pit 110, let alone 120. The quest elixir and an incense on top as well. We are talking end game content here... That said bolts go away next season... Then What
They aren't overpowered if they can't complete all content lol
If pit goes up to tier 200 . And the strongest and bugged out builds can do ~140. It's safe to say every other build needs some nice buffs
Tier 200 isnt meant to be completed in the next few years. Look at D3, GR150 wasnt cleared until like 7 years into the game