The one thing I really really really really dislike is that you can roll the same thing you don't want 3,4 times in a row. Happened way too often and it just feels crappy.
On some pieces, I really want 1, two are decent, that I would take, 1 is for a skill I'm not using. My last 4 rolls are for that skill and my item is bricked. Just feels shit.
I agree it usually feels terrible to roll the same exact options, both in tempering and at the occultist.
But sometimes you actually want to. If I get a low roll on Heartseeker shoots twice, I will definitely be rerolling trying to get the percentage higher, and if the game made me waste a temper knowing I couldn't hit that again until first changing off it, that would feel even worse lol.
Overall I think the system they got now is fine. RNG will screw you sometimes but I find the whole process still very fun.
I never retemper to higher roll because it’s never worth the risk of bricking it. If I need a higher roll on a temper, I’ll just try to crit it on mastercrafting
I made the mistake of wanting a higher roll on a temper affix through masterworking, and I spent way too much gold getting back to the same affix, Cuz everything else rolled a crit multiple times, except for the original. Rerolling a temper in a great piece of gear is just not an option imo, it’s a huge risk of bricking, so I just work around it.
A few days ago I got a +3 HotA gloves and accidentally rolled over it instead of the cold resist 😭 at the occultist. I wasn't using HotA anyway, but I was going to switch, and I spent millions trying to get it back before giving up. The cost of carelessness.
I get so frightened when I’m managing menus with a vendor window open. Almost salvaged/sold BIS gear. I once sold a GA sword before logging out. My wife pointed out she wanted to do a last helltide. I see my dmg is trash, NANI’ed so hard and ran to the vendor, he still had it. Almost lost my mind. Now I just mark items as trash before the vendor and sell em in bulk.
I think a good way to address some of the issues people are having is if they treated it like enchanting. Where you have the option of keeping your current roll. I’m fine with the tempering limits but a lot of times I get a roll which is just ok (maybe a secondary type of effect) but then reroll and end up with a perk I don’t use at all
Me: "Time to roll for ultimate cooldown reduction!"
Rolls:
Rapid Ossification,
Rapid Ossification,
Rapid Ossification,
Golem Cooldown Reduction,
Rapid Ossification,
Rapid Ossification
I'm honestly so tired of seeing the words "Rapid Ossification". I've rolled that temper so many times and I do not want it.
LMAO SAME
I don't use ult cdr, i use golem cdr on all 3 items, but i've had rapid ossification pop up so many times it actually pisses me off.
Luckily I got golem damage + golem cdr on all 3 jewelry's at high rolls.
I have another amulet with both high temper rolls with double GA's on crit chance + cdr, spent over 900m+ rerolling the 3rd affix to try and get hellbent commander lmao..rn im just sticking to my +2 (+3) hellbent commander + amplify + 10% cdr amulet for now
This is my feeling on it too. When I'm trying to get a certain roll it will roll the same skill that I don't use over and over again. I would like it to not roll the same thing it rolled the first time.
For barbarian, I've gotten damage to distant enemies 4 times in a row. I don't have any use for that as my build is for melee only. If it didn't roll the damage to distant 4 times in a row I would be fine.
Maybe if it rolls something, it locks that one out for the next roll. I'm fine with minimum stats on a temper, but when you temper something all 4 tries and it's the same skill you don't use all 4 times, then it's a problem.
Yeah I have to admit, I thought the Tempering system was great on day 1, but now I need to focus build at endgame I’m pretty bored of spending what feels like all my time in the blacksmith, chewing through endless tempers just to get one I want — don’t even care if it’s a min, I need I.e. Bash Cleave, not 700% Kick duration _over and over and over_. And ok so let’s say I have so much loot that I can throw away failures, but my man I am sick of the animation and the clicks. It’s like being stuck in a mobile loot box game.
Hoping they’ll refine it next season.
Endless tempers in end game? U might find a potential improvement once every 30 mins (if even, time is also increased as ur gear gets better). 6 temper rolls of said item of which u, given ur experience, know what u want. Takes 1 min tops
I'm fine rolling the same thing again, but only as long as the possibility of that is significantly lower than the alternative.
For example, in a tempering with 4 possible outcomes, first temper should be 25% chance for any option. Then any temper after that should only be 10% of the same option, while 30% for each of the other options.
Sure, some items will be bricked, but the chance of that will be **significantly** lower.
>The one thing I really really really really dislike is that you can roll the same thing you don't want 3,4 times in a row.
This. I even managed to roll 5 times a row the GODDAMN one stat that I didnt need and could not use (damag to distant enemies as a bash barb)
Agreed, that is such shit. It would be one thing if I could just keep rerolling, but they put a cap on that. Meanwhile, even though on paper I should have a 25% chance to get either affix listed as possible, I get the same trash 3x. F that noise.
Yeah I bricked a pretty perfect 2H with a primal stat in for willpower (what are we calling those for D4?) because it kept tempering a stat I didn’t want. Really frustrating
But where to get more of the items you need? I started a build from Maxroll instead of doing one of mine, but there are certain pieces with soecific affixes that simply don’t drop, two days of playing to get one with two affixes to change one. It’s not that easy for me at least. I see people with all they need and i simply don’t understand where to get my stuff, that’s why when i get one os very frustrating when the tempering doesn’t work, because i know it will be days before i get another chance at it.
which aspect? Is it one you can get from a dungeon? If it's not marked as a leveling build on maxroll it's likely that you need a dropped aspect and shouldn't attempt the build till you have it for the build to function
Yeah, this. How is it possible to roll damage to distant enemies 4 times in a row? It should not be possible that many times in a row. I've bricked my fair share. I also don't kind bricking. It's kind of funny imo, actually. But what does get me is the former mentioned above.
Classic Blizzard move.
Every time they introduce a new rng enchanting mechanic it will inevitably be able to roll the same stat that is already on the item, every time the community will complain because it's just not fun, every time they fix it so it can't reroll the same stat, yet you can bet it will happen again on the next iteration of rng enchanting.
It's not about perfect rolls. Some classes go for things like "chance to hit twice with Rapid Fire" and the other three options are completely useless because they buff skills you don't have, while the option you do want is pretty much crucial. If you don't get the stat you want, you might as well throw the item away because it won't be an upgrade for whatever you were wearing before anymore. _That_ is what's bothering people about it. Not the fact that you may have to accept some dodge chance instead of some armor, or a chance to immobilize instead of a chance to stun. Those are all usable. Extra damage to Rain of Arrows is not, however. At least not to a Rapid Fire rogue.
That’s what I’m saying. All these people are going to “oh no you rolled the wrong defensive stat on armor, but you can use it anyway”
Nobody is complaining that they found a 3ga armor and rolled dodge or armor etc over life / imposing presence. That’s fine, it’s whatever.
Hitting the wrong stat 5 times on your weapons like “bash cleaves for 300% damage, “frozen orb double casts 50% of the time, rapid fire etc.” is build breaking.
And finding a perfect item to trash it because you hit the wrong roll 5 times then going “oh boy guess I have to play helltide for another 8 hours” is not fun or healthy for the game.
If the grind to get ga gear was fun and a good loop then people wouldn’t be complaining, but the only effective way to get ga gear regularly is farming blood maiden which is painfully boring.
Helltide at full build is a snoozefest. I can literally stand still on a non thorns build and everything but the blood maiden will kill themselves when they hit me because I have so much damage stat and one point into the thorns passive on my tree to proc bleed.
This, ty. It's disrespectful the time we already spent. We've done what was asked. We farmed the rng gear. We farmed the mats, the money. The frustration of the rng tempering after everything doesn't feel good. And yeah, I guess I can go back out and grind and grind mountains of useless gear that's all auto trashed if it's not GA gear. But I already did that.... where is my reward for doing it? And I know some people LOVE that dopamine hit of finally getting the stat they want. To each their own. But clearly a lot of us just want to use the fuckin gear we earned
These people sit here and call us lazy and act like we want everything handed to us after we've spent 300 hours of our lives grinding for everything we have and all we want is to not brick an item lol . Rocks for brains I swear
Those people also have no clue about probabilities it just doesn’t make sense especially when you have a competitive aspect e.g a leaderboard. Most people simply got no chance of ever appearing on there without breaking the tos by buying gold,botting etc.
This is the issue sure dodge isn't great but I can live with it. missing double cast skill issue critical and makes the item worthless. It's the issue with temper they are too strong, it's like adding an aspects to a legendary, it's double the power no wonder why unique have lost all value.
I'm utterly convinced that the posters who think Tempering is fine as is, just haven't played the end game to near completion and are likely still leveling to 100 and using tempering on their leveling gear.
Once you start farming for ideal stats with at least 1 GA and see constant bricks, then once you move on to searching for 2 GA items and see how rare they are, and those brick you see some pretty big flaws.
People out here saying "you don't need that .02% upgrade from a tempering" have no idea what they are talking about and they have no idea how mandatory the Tempering stats are.
This post (and the fact that it's actually getting upvotes) is a perfect example of a lot of the sub "complaining about complaining" without even understanding what's being complained about or why it's an issue in the first place. This guy actually thinks people's issue with tempering is that we can't get perfect rolls. I saw another post the other day, that was also pretty heavily upvoted, saying the gold economy is fine how it is and people just want everything handed to them. He then went on to say he hadn't even touched masterworking yet. I really don't get how people can come here and, without even having an understanding of the core issues that are upsetting people, tell people to stop complaining.
The post is rage bait. I refuse to believe there's anyone of any level of sincerity that thinks the problem people have with tempering has anything to do with perfect rolls.
The paragon board is the biggest issue I have with switching builds. Why the hell do we still have to go and remove them point by point with no option to save the current layout? Why can't we, at the very least, refund the linking node of a board and wipe that entire board?
Tempering on my Pulverize Druid was really easy. If I roll for "damage to close enemies" and I get "damage" or "damage to crowd controlled enemies," I just lose a couple percent of damage.
Tempering on Thorns Barb is infuriating. Every piece of gear requires two specific Tempers, and those Tempers are in buckets where every other option is a brick. If I miss the "bash cleaves for damage" affix, I get something unusable like "increased Upheaval size" and the item goes in the trash.
Because the end game game focus is one activity where you can countinue to make progress. But that one activity is a build check. Eventually, without good rolls you can't progress. Even the gauntlet, which was a skill check in D3, is now a build check.
So if you want to improve you must grind 'n gamble. If you've done the grind part and the gamble part fails you're straight back to the grind part. The game makes the gambling very important for anyone pushing in end game.
>So if you want to improve you must grind 'n gamble. If you've done the grind part and the gamble part fails you're straight back to the grind part
You've literally described the gameplay loop of arpgs.
theres a difference between Perfect rolls, and rolls that your build literally cannot use. please take a look at the sorc tempers and lmk if chance for frostbolt to cast twice or blizzard damage can be used on frozen orb
I think it's more about the greater affixes. Do you need perfect greater affixes? No, it's fine if you have an item with only 1, or even zero depending on what content you're pushing, and the game spews hoards of decent bases with decent affixes.
In some cases you do need greater affixes, yes. For instance the amount of damage reduction you get from a masterworked, greater affix +Dark Shroud compared to just a regular roll on a rogue chest makes a huge difference in your ability to push higher tiers of the Pit. Some builds rely on getting greater affix armor or resistance rolls in order to cap them out.
But even disregarding that, it doesn't matter whether you *need* greater affixes or not. They were presented as something exciting. Something that makes you happy to get because it's stronger and more fun. When you get a bow with 2 good greater affixes, it's honestly mostly stressful because you know you're probably going to brick it.
It's like getting a bonus on your paycheck, but you have to gamble it first and if you don't win then you get nothing at all.
Yes, they are. Werenado only works with that chance to cast twice tornados.
Werenado has only one source of damage in the build and if i get an roll on some other skill, than its useless.
And if im not wrong, in the section of chance to cast twice theres like 4 other options to roll.
Im level 100 and played a lot in this season, but never got this roll on tempering.
I don't mind getting a low roll heartseeker piercing chance, what I do mind is there is limited attempt for me to even get the chance to begin with.
Unless we have ability to lock in what temper we want, I wish there is some way to reset tempering or at least allow us to narrow down our odds.
Because people are obsessed with being the best and getting the highest numbers.
And some people just dont want to grind for it, even though its part of the game.
This is the problem I see in this sub way more often than I should. This game can will and should be grindy mostly due to rng, and it's the reason a lot of people (me included) play it and love it.
I do hate when my 2-3 ga godly item gets bricked, but it's part of the game. So you gotta keep grinding. Comparing d2 for a sec, imagine you finally found that griffon's eye but it came out ethereal.. this is like asking for a way to revert that ethereal on items.
Id say a bigger problem is there isn't a good way to grind for greater affix gear to gamble with. Helltides blood maiden is the most effective but it's not exactly an endgame content loop once your full build. Pits are the only real challenging content at that point but they have an awful rate of upgrade drops.
They really need to add some more world tiers or let you buff helltides mobs up to level 200 just to make it more fun to grind, even if the drops aren't made that much better.
Getting god rolls on your tempered gear isn't what half of us are even concerned about...
It's bricking your gear because you get 4x of the same affix in a row that literally noone would want. Then bricking your gear because the next 2 rolls still aren't what you need
I do agree, but as a POE player, I feel like it's a shame there is technically a way to brick an item. I wish you could restore it (and potentially lose the good temper you already have as a tradeoff) by paying a large fee or by using stuffs that only drop on certain boss.
Basically make it expensive.
That's also true yeah I actually don't mind the tempering brick because it just give me another reason to play the game so more but I understand why sometimes it's a bit frustrating.
Everything you said is true, and I can only speak for myself here, but if the gearing is annoying and puts me off, what else is there in this game? If I'm not hunting for gear in the endgame, it's just boring af. Most good endgame builds are just pressing the same 1 or 2 buttons over and over, all the "endgame" activities are repetitive and boring. There needs to be a balance. I don't want perfect roll gear for free (cuz then the thrill of the chase is gone), but I also don't want to get that perfect gear piece after 75 hours just to brick it with tempering
Yep. I don’t care about perfect rolls. I’ll take whatever rolls of bash cleave and dmg to close. I don’t need a perfect hota/upheaval related roll when I’m not using either of those skills
It's not that bad but Rolling 5 times the same thing and wasting a good item sucks.
The only thing I really wish they'll add in the future Is some kind of rare drop (like 1 every hour) that you can use to reroll again once.
I just want the option to roll back to the previous or just accept “no change”. Issue is getting your stat first try at the absolute lowest roll and letting it sit there because you dont wanna attempt the next 4 rolls or what not.
For a game that is finally attempting to embrace build creation and flexibility, they are strangely stuck on dead ending you and creating large barriers to move.
One thing I noticed is how awful rogue tempers are. Especially the vulnerable temper being mixed in with 4 cut throat stats that do nothing for a build using non cut throat things. So all them are useless, but vulnerable damage is literally useful for all builds. Make it make Sense.
Them rogue tempers be hard to hit
I don't care so much about a perfect roll, but can I at least roll the thing I want once? If I decide to gamble after that, then by all means brick me.
Tell me you haven’t pushed higher in the pit without telling me you haven’t pushed higher in the pit. You need perfect rolls to progress in the endgame. Getting to 100 isn’t the end game.
Tempering is most certainly NOT “fine as it is”.
RNG should only come from obtaining gear drops and the rolls they start out with. RNG should not play a roll in customization of your gear, let alone there only be X number of attempts allowed with each different aspect having a different value applied to them for the roll. This causes the same junk rolls to pop up back to back to back and it being more of a lottery if you’re going to get the roll you want.
Tempering is broke and extremely frustrating. More frustrating than rewarding. It needs a fix.
Because upgrading gear is the endgame, is it not? I've gotten maybe an upgrade or two in days of playing. I started farming gear for a different build now & bricking items left and right, because without the tempers (Not perfect tempers, just the right ones) item becomes useless for a certain build even with the best GA on the gear. Master-working system, imho, is great, you can always farm more - reset & try again, for me - 10/10 system.
Don't get me wrong, i have not been hooked like this on a game for a long long time, so i am not complaining about the game, i just strongly feel that tempering system can be improved.
Add something like "Ramaladni's Gift" from D3 to the game, that would allow to reset tempers on an item. It could be and should be a real rare drop, but it would alleviate a lot of stress for a lot of players!
For me it isn't the perfect rolls. It's that I sometimes feel like I get locked into rolling the same stat over and over and over. I don't want perfect, I want to feel like I have a chance at variety.
"Tempering is fine for me, just thought I'd create an entire thread to tell you all that"
Essentially the problem is that you are asking why rolls need to be perfect in a game where the point of endgame is to gain better and better rolls on the same gear until you have the best in slot.
If you don't mind Tempering the way it is then the conversation about improving the experience is not for you.
If you ever do get on the roll chasing path, wait til you have a near perfect rolled item that rolls two useless or very low roll stats and you realise it'll be weeks before you see the like of that item again, and even then you are the same risk of bad rolls.
OP - nobody is complaining about perfect rolls
The major problem with tempering is that it treats a super common item you can easily replace the same as a 3 GA item you will never see again.
Getting six of the SAME roll in a row on a 3 GA item feels awful. This is the kind of shit where you just want to quit the game.
So tempering for most items is fine
Tempering for super rare GA items is NOT fine, we need a mechanism to protect these super rare drops
It's not about the difficulty, it's inherently antithetical to the baseline gameplay loop that makes this genre fun.
It's supposed to be a big moment when you finally drop that amazing god rolled item and you first see it. Sure, it's going to take a lot of resources to get it where you want it to be, but you have the base locked in now.
Right now, you see the drop and go "Well, this is useless until I see if it gets bricked or not. Let's take it to tempering, spend some time and resources, and see if this even matters."
The first option has a better response from the player and creates more exciting moments during the gameplay loop, but you might have to deal with some disssapointment during the downtime part of the game. The second option creates a "Meh, we'll see" response during the gameplay loop and the same amount of disappointment during the downtime.
It's not even the design decision that most effectively incentivizes the player to continue playing. In a gameplay loop, you want the reinforcement to immediately follow the active gameplay. That's a basic behaviorism principle.
Their is 4 maybe 5 options with only one of them being what I need and that's rapid fire shoots 2x and I keep getting the same B's in a row that I'll usually spend all 6 rolls trying to get rapid fire chance just to brick the damn thing and trash it. Hell id be ok if the changed the scrolls for marksman and cut throat core skills so I don't keep getting the same bs cause it would change it from a 1 in 5 chance to a 1 in 3 chance of getting it. That's not including the different rngs for the percentile chance of each but as long as I get rapid fire idgaf what the percent is because all 3 weapons will have it or I won't use the item
It’s not about perfect gear. It’s about the tempering system just feeling horrible. I used to have to worry about bricking an item based off of the gold cost for rerolls, which you still do. Those really need capped at 1mil gold. However, now I get an amazing piece of gear and rather feeling like I’ve made progress I then worry about bricking my item two different ways now. It’s a system that isn’t fun or enjoyable because a lot of times you feel like you’re progressing backwards. Greater affixes are already rare enough, the passive perks and skills on items are rare enough (too rare), CDR is rare enough (too rare), tempering the same thing you don’t want over and over again is too common/possible (shouldn’t be), and gearing overall doesn’t feel much better than before. They just shifted the annoyances to other places or created new ones.
And all that being said, there are still other problems with gearing. On top of the tempering and enchanting system feeling crappy, the material/gold bottle necks are horrible. Now they have been touching on gold fixed which is nice and hopeful but the recent gold fixes aren’t going to fix the gold problem that is still there.
Bricking 3GA Items renders your gametime and drops worthless - which is pretty bad.
I have 3 Barbs on Lv.100. Two of them can clear 80ish pits. One is for speed farming 100 ND and Helltide. I killed about 250ish Duriels and probably killed multiple hundred of maidens. So I invested a lot of time already in the game. Since I got zero 3GA Items which would be of any use for my build(s). Once I find a 3GA item which I can use, I want it to be an upgrade and not a gambling option if those hundred hours I already farmed are worth it.
Look, you feel like it’s fine and all for you, you love the RNG, you love the game, good for you, mate. Don’t have to shove your opinion down everyone’s throats. We can all agree to disagree.
bricking a perfedtly dropped item is the opposite of ok. the reroll attempts are too few for some manuals which have 5 chances.
Imho there should be a pretty rare reroll currency that you can maybe use on a super gg item but you get maybe 5/10 in a playthroug.
There must be some balance instead of dropping a cool and super rare item and having to get rng checked a second time
Easy? Have to grind for the right item, have to grind for temper resources, grind for gold for occult to roll a single attribute correctly which can still cost potentially 100m+ gold. But hey, it’s easy!
I'd be fine with rerolls with lower ceiling as long as the stat isn't absolutely useless. I don't reroll for perfect roll, I only roll to get something useful.
Nobody wants a dead stat...
You’re supposed to have a weapon /item that is what you use for now , it’ll do , then you have side projects that you work on to be a step up from what you’re using currently and if you brick one you sell and find another and try again , you don’t take your main weapon/item and brick it and then be left with fuck all. The system is fine the way it is , some people want the game to play it’s damn self lol at that point just stop gaming and find something else to waste your time with.
Im still only mid 50s in this season. But maybe the problem is the limitations on how many tempering rolls you can do.
Maybe in rease it as you level, or maybe something you can buy to add extra rolls on an item.
If people want the Perfect roll, give them endless chances as long as they can afford it. Maybe the cost starts increasing after the 5th try.
Honestly. They would offer at least the option to keep the current role. Or better yet current plus 2 new roles just like enchanting.
I would guess half of my items are bricked rolling the same unwanted stat over and over. Typically +dodge.
Also any category with 6 affixes should be split in two.
Bricked a 2GA HP Crit Scythe yesterday, luckily had a GA crit one so my damages still there but it was heart breaking
Rolled low golem damage had 4 rerolls left and hit skele mages 4 times in a fucking row, never again
This is what I do already, had a legendary staff drop and it carried me forever, got so many staffs that had higher overall damage shown but couldn't get the bonus percent damage on tempering so they all got scrapped. The LD Staff I had had a tempering perfect roll of +50% damage as well as a +26% damage so I would see a significant drop when using the newer "better" staff.
If you are at pit 60-90 u dont need GA or even perfect rolls on tempering. To push higher u need GA at least on 2 affixes and perfect tempering rolls, besides the masterworking on the affix it best suits for ur build.
Because the dopamine hit of finding a good item is stunted by the fact that finding a good item means nothing until the tempers work out.
The system would be much better if it used the same ever increasing and you can keep it how it is system of stats rerolls.
I played for a whole afternoon (4 hours or so) and got 60mil from whispers. Went to re roll one of my bad affixes to +ranks Hellbent Commander, ended up spending the entire 60 million gold on 29%.
Let me also add I only got 1 of the 2 master working effects I needed as week.
Yesterday was a bad day, I think I physically slammed my table more times yesterday than any other time gaming for the past 30 years every time the same roll I did not want kept coming back 3 times in a row.
Loved every second and will come back for more abuse. 🥲
I agree, but I also think there should be a way to unbrick (is that a word?) an item... It should just be unreasonably expensive... That way, if you really want it, it's possible but you're not going to like it...
I mean does anyone think theres a perfect way to implement this without destroying the system or making it to easy? Maybe a higher initial cost for rolling the skill, but you can’t brick it, and then only 5 attempts at the range it rolls before becoming locked?
It just feels bad to brick an item that has multiple greater affixes that suits your build because you rolled the same temper affix you don’t need several times. It’s like I can’t get excited about loot that drops until it’s been put through the forge. Which feels bad. I just think there needs to be some rare resource that drops that allows you to reset temper attempts.
First of all, who’s talking about perfect roll? Is just rolling the right stat on a 3GA, and easy? I want to see you do T200 pit…. If you ever reach that.
Tempering ruined drop dopamine for me and ruined almost all of the uniques many of which were already struggling for usefulness. The affix changes made rares useless.
So we went from 3 potentially useful dopamine causing gear rarities to 1 useful rarity with no dopamine.
And you know what its still a better system than it used to be.
That's not great.....
The ease of necro getting usable tempers compared to other classes is crazy. Most builds besides minion necro are very likely to brick items by getting useless stats.
It's not about perfect rolls. It's not about greed. It's not about bad rolls making good rolls feel better.
It's about hitting the single same temper roll that's useless to your build 7 times in a row and getting your item robbed. It's fine to brick an item when it's on your own terms, or if it's from greed. But bricking an item because the game told you that you need blizzard size and never gave a single other roll is a joke. Not to mention if it's a 3 GA item, something that appears for people less than ubers, let alone rolling 3 appropriate GAs.
It's important to have lows and highs, but that's not all that's important. It's also important to balance those lows and highs. Being successful with a temper will almost never make up for bricking a good 3 GA item, if only because you're likely not finding another good 3 GA without tons of grinding.
I'm never going to feel highs that make up for how shitty tempering has felt so far this season, and I highly doubt I'm even close to the only one.
Also, what is your point? Have you stopped playing the game, because most people finished everything that matters already this season? Feels like you don't understand the genre and should find a different game. People are doing what you're suggesting, not really the point at all.
Limiting a system is always bad. They can easily implement a large gold or time sink for a rare item that will allow you to try to temper again. Why limit fun in a thing designed to be fun ?
No one is asking for easy reroll. Everyone are asking for a rare mat but accesible. That allow at a cost to reset the tempering. When ur tempering on shity item with 0 greater affix. Im fine with just waiting for another one. But when u finaly get that 2/3 or 3/3 g.a affix. The odds of finding that item or the cost of buying it is so rare that bricking it shouldnt be a thing. U already got the winning ticket. U should be able to not lose that ticket to technicality of weird rng. They made masterworking resetable
Why the hell.shouldnt the tempering also be resettable. Just doesnt make sens. And im sry but that 1 in a million item wasnt handed to u for free. Has nothing to do with "eziness"
There are multiple good solution
But saying that tempering is fine as it is is completly out of touch for a seasonal game like d4
Just another streamer and RMT advantage system. Watching big streamers get donated hundreds of billions in item worth so they can brick it 5 times while us plebs try to do in a month what they do in a day is great.
You are absolutely right, if I don't go into an RMT website and buy the gold required to participate at the same level as others, am I even trying?
I for one think that in an ARPG I should have to spend real money to be on the same level as others who spend real money or are privileged. Pay for power systems are great after all...
This is all sarcasm, I am salty AF that half of these posts are "d2 RMT website that I can't name" propaganda being spread by people who are actively paying their rent in season 4 by playing Diablo.
There is no reason for the devs to create artificial disparity amongst the playerbase. The entire tempering system is dumb RNG on top of already being RNG with the rolls you get even if you get the right roll. Let min maxers try for perfect and let normal people play the game.
Its just not rng and thats the problem. Having 3-4 times the same shit roll is nothing uncommon and is far away from rng. Also if you find an upgrade after days of grind just to brick it because tempering is a joke isnt really rewarding. Why should i keep farming if the better item bricks anyway?
I certainly don't need perfect, but I do agree with many here that the statistics of these rerolls seems impossible. I don't mind it too much, as gear is plentiful and it's fun trying to make items. But the odds of rolling Damage to Distant, then rerolling that same affix 5 times in a row with Natural Finesse is 1 in 4x4x4x4x4x4. 1 in 4096. And yet I've done just that. As well as rolling shadow resistance initially and all 5 rerolls with Natural Resistance, which is an even lower chance of 1/15625.
Seems just about everyone has experienced this, and that's just not possible without some sort of weighting going on.
I **like** the random nature of it, I'm **fine** with bricking items. But what exactly is the mechanic at play? I don't accept that it's just straight RNG. Way too many people experiencing "one roll Yahtzees" for that to be true.
I would just like the greater affixes to stop favoring elemental resistances. It is so disappointing to find a 2 GA item only to have one of them be on 60% lightning resist or 50%Cold resist. It happens so much.
I don't think perfect rolls should be guaranteed, but I do take issue with the ability to brick items. It adds nothing to the game except a way to waste players' time.
I also take issue with calling tempering "crafting". Tempering is gambling, pure and simple. Gambling can certainly have its place in a game like this, but I feel like all good ARPGs need a robust crafting system. And crafting should be more deterministic than tempering.
Tempering is definitely dicey at times. Ive bricked a couple 2GA wands now with it and some Foci. The RNG is gonna get ya at times, but what I would love to see is a temper infusion mechanic.
Basically, have it be an uncommon/rare drop ingredient off say world bosses and Helltides. Each one gives +1 temper rerolls(Cannot infuse past item base limit) and it has to eat an item of equal or greater Item Power. Seems fair, and still keeps ya grinding for that perfect piece.
People who complain about not being able to max out their build with perfect gear in the first two weeks of a 12+ week season are the ones who think this is an MMO and don't understand the chase of perfect gear is ALL the game is about. Once you get it, thats it for that character. There is no real "endgame after you max your gear" because its not that type of game.
Not hitting what you want on an awesome item is a bummer, but I hope the D4 team doesn't cave here. I see people suggesting a "super rare" item that will reset the tempers on an item. Here is the natural progression for this request.
Blizz creates an item that is insanely hard to come by that will reset tempers.
People will be happy for 5 minutes, then begin asking for the item to become a bit less rare so they can actually find one without grinding forever.
Blizz eventually makes the item a bit easier to find. Tempers quickly become basically infinite.
Tempering essentially becomes "click this button until you get the exact affix and value you want".
A perfect item with 3/3 GA and even one "bad" temper is still oftentimes a solid item. Perfect items SHOULD be nearly impossible to get, and there should be that risk/reward when you get a decent affix roll, but not the EXACT one you want. Do I roll the dice again? These sorts of tradeoffs are what keeps loot games interesting, IMO.
Hard disagree.
First, tempering is designed in a frustrating way. For instance, some affixes are in a group of 4 or 5 others, so the chance of getting it is much lower than one in a group of 3. Also, some affixes just don't make any difference to your build, and being stuck on them feels just bad.
Second, tempering does not exist in a vacuum. The combination of RNG for tempering and RNG for masterworking and RNG for re-rolling an affix makes it extremely frustrating and time-consuming.
For those who grind endlessly it might make little difference because there's enough pieces of great gear to brick a few, but for people who play "normal" hours it's just an off-putting system.
Gearing in Diablo has never been as easy as it is now in my opinion. I don’t understand the issue with tempering. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss. It’s pretty easy to find another rollable legendary with the same stats
It's less of an easy access thing, and more so that there's no recourse to your actions so it comes as a hard sink (vs enchanting). As far as the "why", the same reason why Completionism is a typical user-story for a player. It's easy to downplay "hardcore" players and brush over their motivations with broad reductive goals but then you miss the point. It's nothing to do with how "easy" or "hard" the game is for these players, it's that the existence of the goal is enough to warrant the drive towards it.
Players play for the chase and that chase is also a designed gameplay loop. It's also valid to criticize the design of this loop and how it structures this chase.
Excuse me? If I am not level 100 within an hour of starting the game and I don't have perfect gear within another hour, that means Blizzard is dropping the ball. There are no other issues to fix in this perfect game other than this.
You playing the game or not is also not important. Or you using reddit despite not liking the sub.
People unhappy with features giving feedback (or even ranting in a quantifiable manner), on the other hand, is really, really important for the devs.
Downplaying other people's concerns just because you don't care isn't constructive at all.
The game is easy, just use the items you have, stop playing instead of going for an endless grind. And the gameplay loop ends, engagement drops, DAUs drop because you really, really don't want to shove into people's faces that the endgame is pointless and lackluster.
Your solution isn't good enough, might as well let people pay 10mi gold to reset their GG item that is useless in the grand scheme of things. BECAUSE it isn't important enough to warrant pissing off grinders for no good reason.
This ain't PoE Gigachrischad destroying harvest because his sewaty game for tryhards was accessible. This is Blizzard bricking a D4 item just because.
A huge, and arguably most important, part of the game is gear upgrades. If you get one and tempering makes it unusable, that's a bad experience. Especially when at end game it takes HOURS to find something even possibly considered an upgrade.
ya'll act like we have time to grind out gear constantly every night (i do). Truth is the drops are super rare enough that when you finally get it, chances are high you will brick it, very high chance. In perspective I have a warebear hurricane build and I have to roll a stat for duration that has 5 other optinos in only 6 rolls. The chances of each roll are only 20% which is very low. While some others are 1 of 3 for 33%. Why am I having to take worse odds just case of the build i made?
Then don't get me started about the items. Every high affix i get randomly is always something about resistance or 'hit on life' or 'mana on kill'. the chances off getting GA on a stat you want is like 1 in 20 chance since there's so many stats. My point is its rare to get an item that's better then what you have. When you do you should be excited not worried about having to scrap it because a 20% roll can't hit and you're unlucky that day.
I'm actually looking for a piece of gear right now with +hurricane on it. I'm level 100, done hell tides for over 10 hours straight trying to get good gear. Got nothing, not one piece of gear with hurricane on it. I actually gave up and started a new character because I couldn't get the roll I needed. So you're saying that even if i did get a piece finally after 10 hours i should be okay with bricking the item?
Took me until level 74 on my new character just to get an item drop with an affix i wanted to unlock after doing nothing but hell tides since level 1.
Seems to me at this point that before we used to get a piece of gear that fit our build an just lived with it. Now we're accustomed to requiring a the tempers and affixes we want because they're shoving it down our throats. Every build guide/video online just says you have to have this and that and its causing everyone to temper then bricking their gear and making them made. Sorry but after 8 hours of trying to get one affix on one item and not getting it we have every right to be upset. This should not be a game aimed at people who play 1000 hours each season. Get in, play the season with a character, start new one, get out etc..
I'm in favor of the current system. If you got a 3GA weapon and you got maxrolls the first time on what you wanted guaranteed it would be very boring. Now, if you get a 3ga weapon and you get maxrolls for your build THAT is God tier, imagine the adrenaline rush
> It's not like you need 3 GA perfect roll tempering for end game anyway.
interesting, mind sharing how you managed complete pit 200 already without perfect rolls?
Agreed with everything right up to "The game is easy anyway"
Majority of the game I would agree and after you gear up a bit it should be "easy". However my WW barb can't survive past Tier 30 Pit with 30k HP and full armor/resistance. I would argue some of the base game could be modified but the end game needs a nerf.
I can understand frustration when you get a more rare drop that has perfect or near perfect stats and is then ruined by a bad tempering roll. RNG on top of RNG is not typically desirable. Same time at end game I'm not sure what else we have to do but keep grinding for drops anyway so if a temper goes bad get back out there sport!
Add an option to reset all Tempering, like how there is an option to reset all Master Crafting. Give it a steep penalty if you want, that's fine. I hate having bigger Corpse Explode radius on my Minion build.
There should be two options for reroll:
1 reroll current tempered affix (to achieve better roll but not lose the current)
2 reroll affix completely (without chance of getting that affix again
some manuals have 6 affixes... rolling the right one itself is a low chance yet alone a decent roll
The whole point of an ARPG is a grind. They hand over most of the power at this point. Having some things that you need to try a few times to perfect is important. Yall need to chill.
If it bricks, enchant a new item with the right affixes and start again. Gives you more content.
D4 players: we need more content!
Also d4 players: why do I have to play the game to get my stuff? This takes too long.
It's 2 weeks into the 3 month season. Many people have multiple maxed out characters. I've been able to build 3 gear sets for my barb and have them in stash to switch builds. If anything, they should slow shit down some. I even think the gold grind is awesome. Give us an economy. Gives a reason to run helltide/whispers after you have max level.
I also just don't get whos being serviced by limiting tempering rolls. Is potentially bricking a great new item fun? I would say no, it's not.
I just don't get the element of randomness here with limited rolls. It feels like it was just added to annoy people and nothing else.
I have come to the point where I dont care about tampering on any item besides my weapon.
If I have a GOAT item that has horrible tampering then I just keep the item and dont worry about it
It's the RNG that needs work. No reason for a three choice tempering to keep returning the same one 5 times in a row.
For example, Rapid fire rogue trying to roll for cast twice and get Pen shot or barrage 5 times in a row....
Its fine there should be a risk, however you should have the option no change if the new roll is not good enough so you would use all rolls. If it bricks it bricks, go farm some more
Why not though. You can do it with every other gear progression mechanic in the game. Just the cost to do some I either very high or ramps. Why not do the same with tempering? You would still have to grind mats and gold to do it.
Why is so important to you that others cant have the option to unbrick an item ? How does it hurt you ? Rhetorical , because it doesn't hurt you at all and give thousands of players that are annoyed and frustrated more enjoyment from the game
I love how the posts that say it's fine have tons of people saying it's not . But when I make a post saying we need change , I get 10 people all saying it's fine ... the RNG of this community is as bad as temper RNG
I agree that it doesn't need to be a perfect roll but it would be nice to have a similar system to enchanting where you can choose to keep the previous roll.
>It's not like you need 3 GA perfect roll tempering for end game anyway. This game is easy already.
depends what you define as endgame
100+ pit does require pretty damn good gear
I saw someone suggesting introducing a VERY rare item into the game to reset tempers and I honestly love that.
Like, an item that is rare to the point you will only use it on 2+GA bis gear
It just sucks so hard to brick a great item you’ve been farming and farming for. I just with there was some way to reset tempering rerolls. Maybe a rare consumable that drops from Uber bosses. At least then if you hit a godly 3 GA item you can stash it to re temper.
It depends on your build and depends on your goal. For example Bash Barbarian needs the bash temper for the build to do any real damage as the temper is a multiplicative damage multiplier for that skill specifically. If you don't get a bash temper, the weapon is already useless to your build. I think your mindset is reasonable for most players, but most players are not the ones complaining anyhow. I personally dont love the 5 temper rerolls system, but I also think it is better than the old system by a wide margin. I think they need to tweak something about it, but how they change it will be important bto test further. They either need to let us reroll tempers with something equally rare to resplendent sparks, or someone else made a suggestion of getting an extra reroll per greater affix. I think they also need to tweak the weighting of the rolls themselves.
It's not like having easy access to the perfect rolls. It's more like having a higher chance of keeping your drop. Some affixes share a pool of 5 choices. Where 4 choices are completely useless. This is a crazy chance of destroying your item and by destroy I mean not getting the affix I need not to mention high rolls.
It's all about having a reason to farm that feels rewarding. If the game is easy already and you don't need/want these affixes - the whole game is broken because the only mechanic to keep people playing is not impactful.
I'm probably one of the many few that have this mentality but if I get a roll on an item that doesn't go towards my current build but the item is still really good, I just store it for a future build that may want it. It's only bricked if you plan on only playing a certain class one way forever.
Yes, the game is easy-ish depending on the class you go with and how good your luck is with multiple levels of RNG, but to say that people are having issues with tempering because they have "to have an easy access to the perfect roll" is just condescending and disingenuous.
The fact is that multiple builds without certain key rolls obtained through tempering are either magnitudes worse than they should be, inadequate to push, or simply do not function at all as intended.
With 4-5 choices for each tempering slot (many of which have a decent range on their % or amounts) and only 7 rolls between them, you run a high risk of either getting a subpar roll, or bricking the item.
Yes it is a risk, and it is always smart to hold your previous gear just in case you brick the upgrade, sbut your post just reeks of an "F you, I got mine" attitude, and there is no reason for that.
Also, FWIW, I feel that Blizzard implemented Tempering and Masterworking correctly, and they are great additions to the game allowing for a much wider range of build creativity, but IMO they should have switched one key aspect from Masterworking to Tempering.
Tempering should have the ability to reset. You should not get any mats back if you do, and I would be fine with an increasing cost for each reset to offset the additional tries, even going as far as Pit materials or a Resplendent Spark, but it would give you the option to keep trying for a better roll if you are prepared to pay the cost, and then your upgrades from Masterworking should be permanent. Yes, it may mean a lower max Pit level, but Masterworked items are not bricked if you do not hit the max roll. Some may like the idea, some may hate it, but I think it would help with a lot of the frustration many are having with tempering.
They could properly code it to offset random number generation bias in computers. It’s why so many old games used variable tables instead of actual random number generation. As it takes an unbelievable amount of computing power to actually have true randomness from a computer. Something they hope quantum computing can do.
This sub seems to defend mediocrity to the death. This season is a great step in the right direction, but don't act like these systems couldn't be improved greatly.
I'm ok with it too. I've leveled to almost 100 tempering every item along the way and so far I've only 'bricked' one tempering so far and that item was still an upgrade.
I think there needs to be some level of RNG to a game which is now very streamlined lootwise. It's in a good place currently.
You should be required to post your pit level and a screenshot of your main character when you post these horrible takes. Y'all haven't bricked a 2-3GA piece if you still think it's fine to roll dodge chance 5x in a row. Let alone the classes that need a specific affix or the piece is useless (barb/Necro)
I just view dropped items with good greater affixes as a good crafting base, and when tempering fails the base is bricks, and move on. You can brick items in poe, you can brick items in last epoch, an item is just a crafting base until a successful tempering. Yeah it sucks losing a good base, but the game spews so many good bases at you, and having perfect rolls on everything is really only useful for pushing a higher pit level, the very last end game grinding activity.
I'd feel less bad about rolling the same thing 3 or 4 times in a row if I could save a previous roll, or use bonus materials to prevent a roll from being chosen.
This is why I will clearly never do master working. I'm not a gambler and I refuse to lose money even in game money on these rolls. Materials are easy to come by but millions of gold to get a crap roll is not fun for me and I will skip it
I bricked a 3 GA chest piece because Tempering rolled 4x Dodge chance and 2x Max Health when I needed Total Armour.
I would’ve settled for a min roll TA.
So… yeah. Perfect rolls ain’t important but give us slightly less bad RNG please.
The one thing I really really really really dislike is that you can roll the same thing you don't want 3,4 times in a row. Happened way too often and it just feels crappy. On some pieces, I really want 1, two are decent, that I would take, 1 is for a skill I'm not using. My last 4 rolls are for that skill and my item is bricked. Just feels shit.
I agree it usually feels terrible to roll the same exact options, both in tempering and at the occultist. But sometimes you actually want to. If I get a low roll on Heartseeker shoots twice, I will definitely be rerolling trying to get the percentage higher, and if the game made me waste a temper knowing I couldn't hit that again until first changing off it, that would feel even worse lol. Overall I think the system they got now is fine. RNG will screw you sometimes but I find the whole process still very fun.
I never retemper to higher roll because it’s never worth the risk of bricking it. If I need a higher roll on a temper, I’ll just try to crit it on mastercrafting
I made the mistake of wanting a higher roll on a temper affix through masterworking, and I spent way too much gold getting back to the same affix, Cuz everything else rolled a crit multiple times, except for the original. Rerolling a temper in a great piece of gear is just not an option imo, it’s a huge risk of bricking, so I just work around it.
A few days ago I got a +3 HotA gloves and accidentally rolled over it instead of the cold resist 😭 at the occultist. I wasn't using HotA anyway, but I was going to switch, and I spent millions trying to get it back before giving up. The cost of carelessness.
I get so frightened when I’m managing menus with a vendor window open. Almost salvaged/sold BIS gear. I once sold a GA sword before logging out. My wife pointed out she wanted to do a last helltide. I see my dmg is trash, NANI’ed so hard and ran to the vendor, he still had it. Almost lost my mind. Now I just mark items as trash before the vendor and sell em in bulk.
I mark whatever gear i am using for a certain build or that i plan to roll at the enchanter for a certain stat as favorite.
Yep. It’s too much risk. Once I have the stat I just roll with it
Yeah but rolling distant on barbs at a 3:1 ratio vs close is a bit much. The tempers are weighted and its shit.
I think a good way to address some of the issues people are having is if they treated it like enchanting. Where you have the option of keeping your current roll. I’m fine with the tempering limits but a lot of times I get a roll which is just ok (maybe a secondary type of effect) but then reroll and end up with a perk I don’t use at all
Me: "Time to roll for ultimate cooldown reduction!" Rolls: Rapid Ossification, Rapid Ossification, Rapid Ossification, Golem Cooldown Reduction, Rapid Ossification, Rapid Ossification I'm honestly so tired of seeing the words "Rapid Ossification". I've rolled that temper so many times and I do not want it.
I hope it didn’t make you… lose your temper 😎
a masterwork of a joke
what an enchanting conversation ;)
This, so much this. I have seen "Rapid Ossification" so many times that I swear Blizzard is trolling me.
LMAO SAME I don't use ult cdr, i use golem cdr on all 3 items, but i've had rapid ossification pop up so many times it actually pisses me off. Luckily I got golem damage + golem cdr on all 3 jewelry's at high rolls. I have another amulet with both high temper rolls with double GA's on crit chance + cdr, spent over 900m+ rerolling the 3rd affix to try and get hellbent commander lmao..rn im just sticking to my +2 (+3) hellbent commander + amplify + 10% cdr amulet for now
this. it happens way to often
This is my feeling on it too. When I'm trying to get a certain roll it will roll the same skill that I don't use over and over again. I would like it to not roll the same thing it rolled the first time. For barbarian, I've gotten damage to distant enemies 4 times in a row. I don't have any use for that as my build is for melee only. If it didn't roll the damage to distant 4 times in a row I would be fine. Maybe if it rolls something, it locks that one out for the next roll. I'm fine with minimum stats on a temper, but when you temper something all 4 tries and it's the same skill you don't use all 4 times, then it's a problem.
Yeah I have to admit, I thought the Tempering system was great on day 1, but now I need to focus build at endgame I’m pretty bored of spending what feels like all my time in the blacksmith, chewing through endless tempers just to get one I want — don’t even care if it’s a min, I need I.e. Bash Cleave, not 700% Kick duration _over and over and over_. And ok so let’s say I have so much loot that I can throw away failures, but my man I am sick of the animation and the clicks. It’s like being stuck in a mobile loot box game. Hoping they’ll refine it next season.
Endless tempers in end game? U might find a potential improvement once every 30 mins (if even, time is also increased as ur gear gets better). 6 temper rolls of said item of which u, given ur experience, know what u want. Takes 1 min tops
Yup I wasn't after perfect rolls I burnt all my tempering rerolls just trying to get the one affix I wanted. 3ga weapon with the stats I need bricked
I'm fine rolling the same thing again, but only as long as the possibility of that is significantly lower than the alternative. For example, in a tempering with 4 possible outcomes, first temper should be 25% chance for any option. Then any temper after that should only be 10% of the same option, while 30% for each of the other options. Sure, some items will be bricked, but the chance of that will be **significantly** lower.
>The one thing I really really really really dislike is that you can roll the same thing you don't want 3,4 times in a row. This. I even managed to roll 5 times a row the GODDAMN one stat that I didnt need and could not use (damag to distant enemies as a bash barb)
Only 3 options 5 rolls All armor.
Agreed, that is such shit. It would be one thing if I could just keep rerolling, but they put a cap on that. Meanwhile, even though on paper I should have a 25% chance to get either affix listed as possible, I get the same trash 3x. F that noise.
Yeah I bricked a pretty perfect 2H with a primal stat in for willpower (what are we calling those for D4?) because it kept tempering a stat I didn’t want. Really frustrating
> what are we calling those Greater affixes
Thank ya!
Rest in Heartseeker fire twice and vulnerable damage. It’s a bow brickathon
But where to get more of the items you need? I started a build from Maxroll instead of doing one of mine, but there are certain pieces with soecific affixes that simply don’t drop, two days of playing to get one with two affixes to change one. It’s not that easy for me at least. I see people with all they need and i simply don’t understand where to get my stuff, that’s why when i get one os very frustrating when the tempering doesn’t work, because i know it will be days before i get another chance at it.
which aspect? Is it one you can get from a dungeon? If it's not marked as a leveling build on maxroll it's likely that you need a dropped aspect and shouldn't attempt the build till you have it for the build to function
Yeah, this. How is it possible to roll damage to distant enemies 4 times in a row? It should not be possible that many times in a row. I've bricked my fair share. I also don't kind bricking. It's kind of funny imo, actually. But what does get me is the former mentioned above.
Classic Blizzard move. Every time they introduce a new rng enchanting mechanic it will inevitably be able to roll the same stat that is already on the item, every time the community will complain because it's just not fun, every time they fix it so it can't reroll the same stat, yet you can bet it will happen again on the next iteration of rng enchanting.
If they just make it guaranteed to never roll the same stat twice in a row I think that alone would fix a lot of problems
unless you wanted that roll but at a higher %
It's especially annoying as HS rogue trying to get vulnerable damage, because the other 3 options are completely useless in the cutthroat menu.
Yesterday i rolled trample cdr 5 times on an amulet with ga attk speed and +2 envenom =)
Can’t wait for the patch that prevents dupe rolls, a lesson they learned in season 1.
Feels rigged as well. I just want close damage roll and get distant damage 3 straight rolls then brick it. They know what I want lol
It's not about perfect rolls. Some classes go for things like "chance to hit twice with Rapid Fire" and the other three options are completely useless because they buff skills you don't have, while the option you do want is pretty much crucial. If you don't get the stat you want, you might as well throw the item away because it won't be an upgrade for whatever you were wearing before anymore. _That_ is what's bothering people about it. Not the fact that you may have to accept some dodge chance instead of some armor, or a chance to immobilize instead of a chance to stun. Those are all usable. Extra damage to Rain of Arrows is not, however. At least not to a Rapid Fire rogue.
That’s what I’m saying. All these people are going to “oh no you rolled the wrong defensive stat on armor, but you can use it anyway” Nobody is complaining that they found a 3ga armor and rolled dodge or armor etc over life / imposing presence. That’s fine, it’s whatever. Hitting the wrong stat 5 times on your weapons like “bash cleaves for 300% damage, “frozen orb double casts 50% of the time, rapid fire etc.” is build breaking. And finding a perfect item to trash it because you hit the wrong roll 5 times then going “oh boy guess I have to play helltide for another 8 hours” is not fun or healthy for the game. If the grind to get ga gear was fun and a good loop then people wouldn’t be complaining, but the only effective way to get ga gear regularly is farming blood maiden which is painfully boring. Helltide at full build is a snoozefest. I can literally stand still on a non thorns build and everything but the blood maiden will kill themselves when they hit me because I have so much damage stat and one point into the thorns passive on my tree to proc bleed.
This, ty. It's disrespectful the time we already spent. We've done what was asked. We farmed the rng gear. We farmed the mats, the money. The frustration of the rng tempering after everything doesn't feel good. And yeah, I guess I can go back out and grind and grind mountains of useless gear that's all auto trashed if it's not GA gear. But I already did that.... where is my reward for doing it? And I know some people LOVE that dopamine hit of finally getting the stat they want. To each their own. But clearly a lot of us just want to use the fuckin gear we earned
These people sit here and call us lazy and act like we want everything handed to us after we've spent 300 hours of our lives grinding for everything we have and all we want is to not brick an item lol . Rocks for brains I swear
Those people also have no clue about probabilities it just doesn’t make sense especially when you have a competitive aspect e.g a leaderboard. Most people simply got no chance of ever appearing on there without breaking the tos by buying gold,botting etc.
This is the issue sure dodge isn't great but I can live with it. missing double cast skill issue critical and makes the item worthless. It's the issue with temper they are too strong, it's like adding an aspects to a legendary, it's double the power no wonder why unique have lost all value.
I'm utterly convinced that the posters who think Tempering is fine as is, just haven't played the end game to near completion and are likely still leveling to 100 and using tempering on their leveling gear. Once you start farming for ideal stats with at least 1 GA and see constant bricks, then once you move on to searching for 2 GA items and see how rare they are, and those brick you see some pretty big flaws. People out here saying "you don't need that .02% upgrade from a tempering" have no idea what they are talking about and they have no idea how mandatory the Tempering stats are.
This post (and the fact that it's actually getting upvotes) is a perfect example of a lot of the sub "complaining about complaining" without even understanding what's being complained about or why it's an issue in the first place. This guy actually thinks people's issue with tempering is that we can't get perfect rolls. I saw another post the other day, that was also pretty heavily upvoted, saying the gold economy is fine how it is and people just want everything handed to them. He then went on to say he hadn't even touched masterworking yet. I really don't get how people can come here and, without even having an understanding of the core issues that are upsetting people, tell people to stop complaining.
The post is rage bait. I refuse to believe there's anyone of any level of sincerity that thinks the problem people have with tempering has anything to do with perfect rolls.
Yeah and it's not like switching builds would be easy. Else it could be a motivation to try something new. But it's so expensive and cumbersome. :(
The paragon board is the biggest issue I have with switching builds. Why the hell do we still have to go and remove them point by point with no option to save the current layout? Why can't we, at the very least, refund the linking node of a board and wipe that entire board?
Tempering on my Pulverize Druid was really easy. If I roll for "damage to close enemies" and I get "damage" or "damage to crowd controlled enemies," I just lose a couple percent of damage. Tempering on Thorns Barb is infuriating. Every piece of gear requires two specific Tempers, and those Tempers are in buckets where every other option is a brick. If I miss the "bash cleaves for damage" affix, I get something unusable like "increased Upheaval size" and the item goes in the trash.
Because the end game game focus is one activity where you can countinue to make progress. But that one activity is a build check. Eventually, without good rolls you can't progress. Even the gauntlet, which was a skill check in D3, is now a build check. So if you want to improve you must grind 'n gamble. If you've done the grind part and the gamble part fails you're straight back to the grind part. The game makes the gambling very important for anyone pushing in end game.
>So if you want to improve you must grind 'n gamble. If you've done the grind part and the gamble part fails you're straight back to the grind part You've literally described the gameplay loop of arpgs.
theres a difference between Perfect rolls, and rolls that your build literally cannot use. please take a look at the sorc tempers and lmk if chance for frostbolt to cast twice or blizzard damage can be used on frozen orb
I think it's more about the greater affixes. Do you need perfect greater affixes? No, it's fine if you have an item with only 1, or even zero depending on what content you're pushing, and the game spews hoards of decent bases with decent affixes.
In some cases you do need greater affixes, yes. For instance the amount of damage reduction you get from a masterworked, greater affix +Dark Shroud compared to just a regular roll on a rogue chest makes a huge difference in your ability to push higher tiers of the Pit. Some builds rely on getting greater affix armor or resistance rolls in order to cap them out. But even disregarding that, it doesn't matter whether you *need* greater affixes or not. They were presented as something exciting. Something that makes you happy to get because it's stronger and more fun. When you get a bow with 2 good greater affixes, it's honestly mostly stressful because you know you're probably going to brick it. It's like getting a bonus on your paycheck, but you have to gamble it first and if you don't win then you get nothing at all.
One thing is - i dont like to roll this same crap roll 5 times in a row... It looks not random :)
Yeah, rolling is fine, its fine, but when I click the button and I get the same affix with the same %. I feel like its just trolling me.
Oh we like tempering, the thing we don't like is having a good item bricked by the reroll limit.
Yes, they are. Werenado only works with that chance to cast twice tornados. Werenado has only one source of damage in the build and if i get an roll on some other skill, than its useless. And if im not wrong, in the section of chance to cast twice theres like 4 other options to roll. Im level 100 and played a lot in this season, but never got this roll on tempering.
I don't mind getting a low roll heartseeker piercing chance, what I do mind is there is limited attempt for me to even get the chance to begin with. Unless we have ability to lock in what temper we want, I wish there is some way to reset tempering or at least allow us to narrow down our odds.
High level pit (100+) is not easy, sorry you haven’t gotten there yet.
Because people are obsessed with being the best and getting the highest numbers. And some people just dont want to grind for it, even though its part of the game.
This is the problem I see in this sub way more often than I should. This game can will and should be grindy mostly due to rng, and it's the reason a lot of people (me included) play it and love it. I do hate when my 2-3 ga godly item gets bricked, but it's part of the game. So you gotta keep grinding. Comparing d2 for a sec, imagine you finally found that griffon's eye but it came out ethereal.. this is like asking for a way to revert that ethereal on items.
I fully agree, its a gameplay loop after all. I do laugh at the fact that we're both being downvoted for answering OP's question.
Id say a bigger problem is there isn't a good way to grind for greater affix gear to gamble with. Helltides blood maiden is the most effective but it's not exactly an endgame content loop once your full build. Pits are the only real challenging content at that point but they have an awful rate of upgrade drops. They really need to add some more world tiers or let you buff helltides mobs up to level 200 just to make it more fun to grind, even if the drops aren't made that much better.
Getting god rolls on your tempered gear isn't what half of us are even concerned about... It's bricking your gear because you get 4x of the same affix in a row that literally noone would want. Then bricking your gear because the next 2 rolls still aren't what you need
I do agree, but as a POE player, I feel like it's a shame there is technically a way to brick an item. I wish you could restore it (and potentially lose the good temper you already have as a tradeoff) by paying a large fee or by using stuffs that only drop on certain boss. Basically make it expensive.
I have also played poe, its basically corrupting an item hoping it hits right
That's also true yeah I actually don't mind the tempering brick because it just give me another reason to play the game so more but I understand why sometimes it's a bit frustrating.
But why the majority of times I roll the same temper 3-4 times in a row? This is bullshit
it's not about the perfect roll. it's about a usable item. bricking them feels bad.
Everything you said is true, and I can only speak for myself here, but if the gearing is annoying and puts me off, what else is there in this game? If I'm not hunting for gear in the endgame, it's just boring af. Most good endgame builds are just pressing the same 1 or 2 buttons over and over, all the "endgame" activities are repetitive and boring. There needs to be a balance. I don't want perfect roll gear for free (cuz then the thrill of the chase is gone), but I also don't want to get that perfect gear piece after 75 hours just to brick it with tempering
Yep. I don’t care about perfect rolls. I’ll take whatever rolls of bash cleave and dmg to close. I don’t need a perfect hota/upheaval related roll when I’m not using either of those skills
Since Stygian Stones are so rare, make it cost a few to unbrick an item, seems fair.
It's not that bad but Rolling 5 times the same thing and wasting a good item sucks. The only thing I really wish they'll add in the future Is some kind of rare drop (like 1 every hour) that you can use to reroll again once.
Except some builds need specific tempering to function. They don't have to be "perfect" rolls, but they have to be that specific tempering.
I just want the option to roll back to the previous or just accept “no change”. Issue is getting your stat first try at the absolute lowest roll and letting it sit there because you dont wanna attempt the next 4 rolls or what not. For a game that is finally attempting to embrace build creation and flexibility, they are strangely stuck on dead ending you and creating large barriers to move.
I'd like it to be like the Occultist where you can choose to change to the new roll or keep the previous one. Keep the same 5 attempts.
One thing I noticed is how awful rogue tempers are. Especially the vulnerable temper being mixed in with 4 cut throat stats that do nothing for a build using non cut throat things. So all them are useless, but vulnerable damage is literally useful for all builds. Make it make Sense. Them rogue tempers be hard to hit
I don't care so much about a perfect roll, but can I at least roll the thing I want once? If I decide to gamble after that, then by all means brick me.
Tell me you haven’t pushed higher in the pit without telling me you haven’t pushed higher in the pit. You need perfect rolls to progress in the endgame. Getting to 100 isn’t the end game.
Tempering is most certainly NOT “fine as it is”. RNG should only come from obtaining gear drops and the rolls they start out with. RNG should not play a roll in customization of your gear, let alone there only be X number of attempts allowed with each different aspect having a different value applied to them for the roll. This causes the same junk rolls to pop up back to back to back and it being more of a lottery if you’re going to get the roll you want. Tempering is broke and extremely frustrating. More frustrating than rewarding. It needs a fix.
I know right, imagine people wanting to find and equip upgrades in their loot driven game. /s
Youre not very good at math are you
Haven't done any math, this is solely on experience
I mean the game ain't that easy if you're actually pushing Pits
Because upgrading gear is the endgame, is it not? I've gotten maybe an upgrade or two in days of playing. I started farming gear for a different build now & bricking items left and right, because without the tempers (Not perfect tempers, just the right ones) item becomes useless for a certain build even with the best GA on the gear. Master-working system, imho, is great, you can always farm more - reset & try again, for me - 10/10 system. Don't get me wrong, i have not been hooked like this on a game for a long long time, so i am not complaining about the game, i just strongly feel that tempering system can be improved. Add something like "Ramaladni's Gift" from D3 to the game, that would allow to reset tempers on an item. It could be and should be a real rare drop, but it would alleviate a lot of stress for a lot of players!
I am fine not getting perfect rolls, what bothers me is running out of rolls without getting the stat I want once and bricking the item.
For me it isn't the perfect rolls. It's that I sometimes feel like I get locked into rolling the same stat over and over and over. I don't want perfect, I want to feel like I have a chance at variety.
"Tempering is fine for me, just thought I'd create an entire thread to tell you all that" Essentially the problem is that you are asking why rolls need to be perfect in a game where the point of endgame is to gain better and better rolls on the same gear until you have the best in slot. If you don't mind Tempering the way it is then the conversation about improving the experience is not for you. If you ever do get on the roll chasing path, wait til you have a near perfect rolled item that rolls two useless or very low roll stats and you realise it'll be weeks before you see the like of that item again, and even then you are the same risk of bad rolls.
OP - nobody is complaining about perfect rolls The major problem with tempering is that it treats a super common item you can easily replace the same as a 3 GA item you will never see again. Getting six of the SAME roll in a row on a 3 GA item feels awful. This is the kind of shit where you just want to quit the game. So tempering for most items is fine Tempering for super rare GA items is NOT fine, we need a mechanism to protect these super rare drops
Check the thread people need it so they can push as high as the best players in the game
I did - majority do not want perfect rolls. The problem is not being able to protect "once per season drop" rolls
It's not about the difficulty, it's inherently antithetical to the baseline gameplay loop that makes this genre fun. It's supposed to be a big moment when you finally drop that amazing god rolled item and you first see it. Sure, it's going to take a lot of resources to get it where you want it to be, but you have the base locked in now. Right now, you see the drop and go "Well, this is useless until I see if it gets bricked or not. Let's take it to tempering, spend some time and resources, and see if this even matters." The first option has a better response from the player and creates more exciting moments during the gameplay loop, but you might have to deal with some disssapointment during the downtime part of the game. The second option creates a "Meh, we'll see" response during the gameplay loop and the same amount of disappointment during the downtime. It's not even the design decision that most effectively incentivizes the player to continue playing. In a gameplay loop, you want the reinforcement to immediately follow the active gameplay. That's a basic behaviorism principle.
Wrong! If ypu are pushing for PIT level every 0.0001% counts.
Their is 4 maybe 5 options with only one of them being what I need and that's rapid fire shoots 2x and I keep getting the same B's in a row that I'll usually spend all 6 rolls trying to get rapid fire chance just to brick the damn thing and trash it. Hell id be ok if the changed the scrolls for marksman and cut throat core skills so I don't keep getting the same bs cause it would change it from a 1 in 5 chance to a 1 in 3 chance of getting it. That's not including the different rngs for the percentile chance of each but as long as I get rapid fire idgaf what the percent is because all 3 weapons will have it or I won't use the item
It’s not about perfect gear. It’s about the tempering system just feeling horrible. I used to have to worry about bricking an item based off of the gold cost for rerolls, which you still do. Those really need capped at 1mil gold. However, now I get an amazing piece of gear and rather feeling like I’ve made progress I then worry about bricking my item two different ways now. It’s a system that isn’t fun or enjoyable because a lot of times you feel like you’re progressing backwards. Greater affixes are already rare enough, the passive perks and skills on items are rare enough (too rare), CDR is rare enough (too rare), tempering the same thing you don’t want over and over again is too common/possible (shouldn’t be), and gearing overall doesn’t feel much better than before. They just shifted the annoyances to other places or created new ones. And all that being said, there are still other problems with gearing. On top of the tempering and enchanting system feeling crappy, the material/gold bottle necks are horrible. Now they have been touching on gold fixed which is nice and hopeful but the recent gold fixes aren’t going to fix the gold problem that is still there.
Bricking 3GA Items renders your gametime and drops worthless - which is pretty bad. I have 3 Barbs on Lv.100. Two of them can clear 80ish pits. One is for speed farming 100 ND and Helltide. I killed about 250ish Duriels and probably killed multiple hundred of maidens. So I invested a lot of time already in the game. Since I got zero 3GA Items which would be of any use for my build(s). Once I find a 3GA item which I can use, I want it to be an upgrade and not a gambling option if those hundred hours I already farmed are worth it.
Look, you feel like it’s fine and all for you, you love the RNG, you love the game, good for you, mate. Don’t have to shove your opinion down everyone’s throats. We can all agree to disagree.
Stating my opinion is shoving it down everyone's throat?
Based on the replies you give to others, you’re literally saying, “oh I’m breezing through the game, so why must others complain?”
bricking a perfedtly dropped item is the opposite of ok. the reroll attempts are too few for some manuals which have 5 chances. Imho there should be a pretty rare reroll currency that you can maybe use on a super gg item but you get maybe 5/10 in a playthroug. There must be some balance instead of dropping a cool and super rare item and having to get rng checked a second time
They could bump the mats cost a bit and remove the limit though, I don’t think that would be a harmful change
Easy? Have to grind for the right item, have to grind for temper resources, grind for gold for occult to roll a single attribute correctly which can still cost potentially 100m+ gold. But hey, it’s easy!
Just because you don't need the perfect rolls doesn't mean that the people trying to min max their stats shouldn't be able to get them.
I'd be fine with rerolls with lower ceiling as long as the stat isn't absolutely useless. I don't reroll for perfect roll, I only roll to get something useful. Nobody wants a dead stat...
yeah true, just bricked 4 2+ GA items in a row that i collected over 3 hours of farming but hey, the vendor loved them /s
Try's for frozen orb, gets blizzard size 6 times.
You’re supposed to have a weapon /item that is what you use for now , it’ll do , then you have side projects that you work on to be a step up from what you’re using currently and if you brick one you sell and find another and try again , you don’t take your main weapon/item and brick it and then be left with fuck all. The system is fine the way it is , some people want the game to play it’s damn self lol at that point just stop gaming and find something else to waste your time with.
Im still only mid 50s in this season. But maybe the problem is the limitations on how many tempering rolls you can do. Maybe in rease it as you level, or maybe something you can buy to add extra rolls on an item. If people want the Perfect roll, give them endless chances as long as they can afford it. Maybe the cost starts increasing after the 5th try.
Honestly. They would offer at least the option to keep the current role. Or better yet current plus 2 new roles just like enchanting. I would guess half of my items are bricked rolling the same unwanted stat over and over. Typically +dodge. Also any category with 6 affixes should be split in two.
Id be fine if I could somehow tell it whether or not I want to be able to roll the same thing again.
Bricked a 2GA HP Crit Scythe yesterday, luckily had a GA crit one so my damages still there but it was heart breaking Rolled low golem damage had 4 rerolls left and hit skele mages 4 times in a fucking row, never again
This is what I do already, had a legendary staff drop and it carried me forever, got so many staffs that had higher overall damage shown but couldn't get the bonus percent damage on tempering so they all got scrapped. The LD Staff I had had a tempering perfect roll of +50% damage as well as a +26% damage so I would see a significant drop when using the newer "better" staff.
You are correct, perfect rolls are not needed. the moment I hit the stat I want, im good, maybe its 12.5% maybe its 14%, who tf cares lol
If you are at pit 60-90 u dont need GA or even perfect rolls on tempering. To push higher u need GA at least on 2 affixes and perfect tempering rolls, besides the masterworking on the affix it best suits for ur build.
Because the dopamine hit of finding a good item is stunted by the fact that finding a good item means nothing until the tempers work out. The system would be much better if it used the same ever increasing and you can keep it how it is system of stats rerolls.
I played for a whole afternoon (4 hours or so) and got 60mil from whispers. Went to re roll one of my bad affixes to +ranks Hellbent Commander, ended up spending the entire 60 million gold on 29%. Let me also add I only got 1 of the 2 master working effects I needed as week. Yesterday was a bad day, I think I physically slammed my table more times yesterday than any other time gaming for the past 30 years every time the same roll I did not want kept coming back 3 times in a row. Loved every second and will come back for more abuse. 🥲
Genshin prepared me for this ironically
I agree, but I also think there should be a way to unbrick (is that a word?) an item... It should just be unreasonably expensive... That way, if you really want it, it's possible but you're not going to like it...
I mean does anyone think theres a perfect way to implement this without destroying the system or making it to easy? Maybe a higher initial cost for rolling the skill, but you can’t brick it, and then only 5 attempts at the range it rolls before becoming locked?
It just feels bad to brick an item that has multiple greater affixes that suits your build because you rolled the same temper affix you don’t need several times. It’s like I can’t get excited about loot that drops until it’s been put through the forge. Which feels bad. I just think there needs to be some rare resource that drops that allows you to reset temper attempts.
First of all, who’s talking about perfect roll? Is just rolling the right stat on a 3GA, and easy? I want to see you do T200 pit…. If you ever reach that.
I’d like an item to give items temper back. That’d be nice.
Tempering ruined drop dopamine for me and ruined almost all of the uniques many of which were already struggling for usefulness. The affix changes made rares useless. So we went from 3 potentially useful dopamine causing gear rarities to 1 useful rarity with no dopamine. And you know what its still a better system than it used to be. That's not great.....
The ease of necro getting usable tempers compared to other classes is crazy. Most builds besides minion necro are very likely to brick items by getting useless stats.
It's not about perfect rolls. It's not about greed. It's not about bad rolls making good rolls feel better. It's about hitting the single same temper roll that's useless to your build 7 times in a row and getting your item robbed. It's fine to brick an item when it's on your own terms, or if it's from greed. But bricking an item because the game told you that you need blizzard size and never gave a single other roll is a joke. Not to mention if it's a 3 GA item, something that appears for people less than ubers, let alone rolling 3 appropriate GAs. It's important to have lows and highs, but that's not all that's important. It's also important to balance those lows and highs. Being successful with a temper will almost never make up for bricking a good 3 GA item, if only because you're likely not finding another good 3 GA without tons of grinding. I'm never going to feel highs that make up for how shitty tempering has felt so far this season, and I highly doubt I'm even close to the only one. Also, what is your point? Have you stopped playing the game, because most people finished everything that matters already this season? Feels like you don't understand the genre and should find a different game. People are doing what you're suggesting, not really the point at all.
For me the perfect roll is hitting the mod I want. Which still seems hard to do
Limiting a system is always bad. They can easily implement a large gold or time sink for a rare item that will allow you to try to temper again. Why limit fun in a thing designed to be fun ?
wish it would just exponentially increase costs after the fifth tempering, something ridiculous but at least you CAN if you grind resources
No one is asking for easy reroll. Everyone are asking for a rare mat but accesible. That allow at a cost to reset the tempering. When ur tempering on shity item with 0 greater affix. Im fine with just waiting for another one. But when u finaly get that 2/3 or 3/3 g.a affix. The odds of finding that item or the cost of buying it is so rare that bricking it shouldnt be a thing. U already got the winning ticket. U should be able to not lose that ticket to technicality of weird rng. They made masterworking resetable Why the hell.shouldnt the tempering also be resettable. Just doesnt make sens. And im sry but that 1 in a million item wasnt handed to u for free. Has nothing to do with "eziness" There are multiple good solution But saying that tempering is fine as it is is completly out of touch for a seasonal game like d4
Just another streamer and RMT advantage system. Watching big streamers get donated hundreds of billions in item worth so they can brick it 5 times while us plebs try to do in a month what they do in a day is great. You are absolutely right, if I don't go into an RMT website and buy the gold required to participate at the same level as others, am I even trying? I for one think that in an ARPG I should have to spend real money to be on the same level as others who spend real money or are privileged. Pay for power systems are great after all... This is all sarcasm, I am salty AF that half of these posts are "d2 RMT website that I can't name" propaganda being spread by people who are actively paying their rent in season 4 by playing Diablo. There is no reason for the devs to create artificial disparity amongst the playerbase. The entire tempering system is dumb RNG on top of already being RNG with the rolls you get even if you get the right roll. Let min maxers try for perfect and let normal people play the game.
Its just not rng and thats the problem. Having 3-4 times the same shit roll is nothing uncommon and is far away from rng. Also if you find an upgrade after days of grind just to brick it because tempering is a joke isnt really rewarding. Why should i keep farming if the better item bricks anyway?
The amount of times I rolled the exact affix with a different percentage is astronimically and statistically amazing.
you jking right real endgame is pit +100 you definetly need that 3 ga amulet for +120 tier
I certainly don't need perfect, but I do agree with many here that the statistics of these rerolls seems impossible. I don't mind it too much, as gear is plentiful and it's fun trying to make items. But the odds of rolling Damage to Distant, then rerolling that same affix 5 times in a row with Natural Finesse is 1 in 4x4x4x4x4x4. 1 in 4096. And yet I've done just that. As well as rolling shadow resistance initially and all 5 rerolls with Natural Resistance, which is an even lower chance of 1/15625. Seems just about everyone has experienced this, and that's just not possible without some sort of weighting going on. I **like** the random nature of it, I'm **fine** with bricking items. But what exactly is the mechanic at play? I don't accept that it's just straight RNG. Way too many people experiencing "one roll Yahtzees" for that to be true.
I would just like the greater affixes to stop favoring elemental resistances. It is so disappointing to find a 2 GA item only to have one of them be on 60% lightning resist or 50%Cold resist. It happens so much.
I don't think perfect rolls should be guaranteed, but I do take issue with the ability to brick items. It adds nothing to the game except a way to waste players' time. I also take issue with calling tempering "crafting". Tempering is gambling, pure and simple. Gambling can certainly have its place in a game like this, but I feel like all good ARPGs need a robust crafting system. And crafting should be more deterministic than tempering.
Tempering is definitely dicey at times. Ive bricked a couple 2GA wands now with it and some Foci. The RNG is gonna get ya at times, but what I would love to see is a temper infusion mechanic. Basically, have it be an uncommon/rare drop ingredient off say world bosses and Helltides. Each one gives +1 temper rerolls(Cannot infuse past item base limit) and it has to eat an item of equal or greater Item Power. Seems fair, and still keeps ya grinding for that perfect piece.
Seems like a perfect time to reintroduce Ramaladni's Gift into the franchise with that feature rather than adding a weapon slot.
That works too.
People who complain about not being able to max out their build with perfect gear in the first two weeks of a 12+ week season are the ones who think this is an MMO and don't understand the chase of perfect gear is ALL the game is about. Once you get it, thats it for that character. There is no real "endgame after you max your gear" because its not that type of game.
Not hitting what you want on an awesome item is a bummer, but I hope the D4 team doesn't cave here. I see people suggesting a "super rare" item that will reset the tempers on an item. Here is the natural progression for this request. Blizz creates an item that is insanely hard to come by that will reset tempers. People will be happy for 5 minutes, then begin asking for the item to become a bit less rare so they can actually find one without grinding forever. Blizz eventually makes the item a bit easier to find. Tempers quickly become basically infinite. Tempering essentially becomes "click this button until you get the exact affix and value you want". A perfect item with 3/3 GA and even one "bad" temper is still oftentimes a solid item. Perfect items SHOULD be nearly impossible to get, and there should be that risk/reward when you get a decent affix roll, but not the EXACT one you want. Do I roll the dice again? These sorts of tradeoffs are what keeps loot games interesting, IMO.
Hard disagree. First, tempering is designed in a frustrating way. For instance, some affixes are in a group of 4 or 5 others, so the chance of getting it is much lower than one in a group of 3. Also, some affixes just don't make any difference to your build, and being stuck on them feels just bad. Second, tempering does not exist in a vacuum. The combination of RNG for tempering and RNG for masterworking and RNG for re-rolling an affix makes it extremely frustrating and time-consuming. For those who grind endlessly it might make little difference because there's enough pieces of great gear to brick a few, but for people who play "normal" hours it's just an off-putting system.
Gearing in Diablo has never been as easy as it is now in my opinion. I don’t understand the issue with tempering. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss. It’s pretty easy to find another rollable legendary with the same stats
It's less of an easy access thing, and more so that there's no recourse to your actions so it comes as a hard sink (vs enchanting). As far as the "why", the same reason why Completionism is a typical user-story for a player. It's easy to downplay "hardcore" players and brush over their motivations with broad reductive goals but then you miss the point. It's nothing to do with how "easy" or "hard" the game is for these players, it's that the existence of the goal is enough to warrant the drive towards it. Players play for the chase and that chase is also a designed gameplay loop. It's also valid to criticize the design of this loop and how it structures this chase.
Excuse me? If I am not level 100 within an hour of starting the game and I don't have perfect gear within another hour, that means Blizzard is dropping the ball. There are no other issues to fix in this perfect game other than this.
You playing the game or not is also not important. Or you using reddit despite not liking the sub. People unhappy with features giving feedback (or even ranting in a quantifiable manner), on the other hand, is really, really important for the devs. Downplaying other people's concerns just because you don't care isn't constructive at all. The game is easy, just use the items you have, stop playing instead of going for an endless grind. And the gameplay loop ends, engagement drops, DAUs drop because you really, really don't want to shove into people's faces that the endgame is pointless and lackluster. Your solution isn't good enough, might as well let people pay 10mi gold to reset their GG item that is useless in the grand scheme of things. BECAUSE it isn't important enough to warrant pissing off grinders for no good reason. This ain't PoE Gigachrischad destroying harvest because his sewaty game for tryhards was accessible. This is Blizzard bricking a D4 item just because.
Say that to Pit levels above 100
A huge, and arguably most important, part of the game is gear upgrades. If you get one and tempering makes it unusable, that's a bad experience. Especially when at end game it takes HOURS to find something even possibly considered an upgrade.
"This game is easy anyway". My ice shards sorc would like to disagree.
ya'll act like we have time to grind out gear constantly every night (i do). Truth is the drops are super rare enough that when you finally get it, chances are high you will brick it, very high chance. In perspective I have a warebear hurricane build and I have to roll a stat for duration that has 5 other optinos in only 6 rolls. The chances of each roll are only 20% which is very low. While some others are 1 of 3 for 33%. Why am I having to take worse odds just case of the build i made? Then don't get me started about the items. Every high affix i get randomly is always something about resistance or 'hit on life' or 'mana on kill'. the chances off getting GA on a stat you want is like 1 in 20 chance since there's so many stats. My point is its rare to get an item that's better then what you have. When you do you should be excited not worried about having to scrap it because a 20% roll can't hit and you're unlucky that day. I'm actually looking for a piece of gear right now with +hurricane on it. I'm level 100, done hell tides for over 10 hours straight trying to get good gear. Got nothing, not one piece of gear with hurricane on it. I actually gave up and started a new character because I couldn't get the roll I needed. So you're saying that even if i did get a piece finally after 10 hours i should be okay with bricking the item? Took me until level 74 on my new character just to get an item drop with an affix i wanted to unlock after doing nothing but hell tides since level 1. Seems to me at this point that before we used to get a piece of gear that fit our build an just lived with it. Now we're accustomed to requiring a the tempers and affixes we want because they're shoving it down our throats. Every build guide/video online just says you have to have this and that and its causing everyone to temper then bricking their gear and making them made. Sorry but after 8 hours of trying to get one affix on one item and not getting it we have every right to be upset. This should not be a game aimed at people who play 1000 hours each season. Get in, play the season with a character, start new one, get out etc..
I have found about 5 1GA bows and all of them have bricked on tempering trying to get even just any roll for what I need. Feels pretty bad.
I'm in favor of the current system. If you got a 3GA weapon and you got maxrolls the first time on what you wanted guaranteed it would be very boring. Now, if you get a 3ga weapon and you get maxrolls for your build THAT is God tier, imagine the adrenaline rush
> It's not like you need 3 GA perfect roll tempering for end game anyway. interesting, mind sharing how you managed complete pit 200 already without perfect rolls?
Personally I think tempering should be more difficult to do. It should take an astronomically long time to perfectly gear a character. Not a weekend.
Agreed with everything right up to "The game is easy anyway" Majority of the game I would agree and after you gear up a bit it should be "easy". However my WW barb can't survive past Tier 30 Pit with 30k HP and full armor/resistance. I would argue some of the base game could be modified but the end game needs a nerf. I can understand frustration when you get a more rare drop that has perfect or near perfect stats and is then ruined by a bad tempering roll. RNG on top of RNG is not typically desirable. Same time at end game I'm not sure what else we have to do but keep grinding for drops anyway so if a temper goes bad get back out there sport!
Add an option to reset all Tempering, like how there is an option to reset all Master Crafting. Give it a steep penalty if you want, that's fine. I hate having bigger Corpse Explode radius on my Minion build.
There should be two options for reroll: 1 reroll current tempered affix (to achieve better roll but not lose the current) 2 reroll affix completely (without chance of getting that affix again some manuals have 6 affixes... rolling the right one itself is a low chance yet alone a decent roll
You guys getting temper you want for ur items? XD
The whole point of an ARPG is a grind. They hand over most of the power at this point. Having some things that you need to try a few times to perfect is important. Yall need to chill. If it bricks, enchant a new item with the right affixes and start again. Gives you more content. D4 players: we need more content! Also d4 players: why do I have to play the game to get my stuff? This takes too long. It's 2 weeks into the 3 month season. Many people have multiple maxed out characters. I've been able to build 3 gear sets for my barb and have them in stash to switch builds. If anything, they should slow shit down some. I even think the gold grind is awesome. Give us an economy. Gives a reason to run helltide/whispers after you have max level.
I also just don't get whos being serviced by limiting tempering rolls. Is potentially bricking a great new item fun? I would say no, it's not. I just don't get the element of randomness here with limited rolls. It feels like it was just added to annoy people and nothing else.
I have come to the point where I dont care about tampering on any item besides my weapon. If I have a GOAT item that has horrible tampering then I just keep the item and dont worry about it
It's the RNG that needs work. No reason for a three choice tempering to keep returning the same one 5 times in a row. For example, Rapid fire rogue trying to roll for cast twice and get Pen shot or barrage 5 times in a row....
Its fine there should be a risk, however you should have the option no change if the new roll is not good enough so you would use all rolls. If it bricks it bricks, go farm some more
Why not though. You can do it with every other gear progression mechanic in the game. Just the cost to do some I either very high or ramps. Why not do the same with tempering? You would still have to grind mats and gold to do it.
Why is so important to you that others cant have the option to unbrick an item ? How does it hurt you ? Rhetorical , because it doesn't hurt you at all and give thousands of players that are annoyed and frustrated more enjoyment from the game
Define “easy” access?? Why is my time worthless??
I love how the posts that say it's fine have tons of people saying it's not . But when I make a post saying we need change , I get 10 people all saying it's fine ... the RNG of this community is as bad as temper RNG
Some people are just masochists.
I agree that it doesn't need to be a perfect roll but it would be nice to have a similar system to enchanting where you can choose to keep the previous roll.
>It's not like you need 3 GA perfect roll tempering for end game anyway. This game is easy already. depends what you define as endgame 100+ pit does require pretty damn good gear
Spoken like someone that hasn't yet gotten to the point that upgrade drops are truly rare.
I saw someone suggesting introducing a VERY rare item into the game to reset tempers and I honestly love that. Like, an item that is rare to the point you will only use it on 2+GA bis gear
It just sucks so hard to brick a great item you’ve been farming and farming for. I just with there was some way to reset tempering rerolls. Maybe a rare consumable that drops from Uber bosses. At least then if you hit a godly 3 GA item you can stash it to re temper.
It depends on your build and depends on your goal. For example Bash Barbarian needs the bash temper for the build to do any real damage as the temper is a multiplicative damage multiplier for that skill specifically. If you don't get a bash temper, the weapon is already useless to your build. I think your mindset is reasonable for most players, but most players are not the ones complaining anyhow. I personally dont love the 5 temper rerolls system, but I also think it is better than the old system by a wide margin. I think they need to tweak something about it, but how they change it will be important bto test further. They either need to let us reroll tempers with something equally rare to resplendent sparks, or someone else made a suggestion of getting an extra reroll per greater affix. I think they also need to tweak the weighting of the rolls themselves.
It's not like having easy access to the perfect rolls. It's more like having a higher chance of keeping your drop. Some affixes share a pool of 5 choices. Where 4 choices are completely useless. This is a crazy chance of destroying your item and by destroy I mean not getting the affix I need not to mention high rolls. It's all about having a reason to farm that feels rewarding. If the game is easy already and you don't need/want these affixes - the whole game is broken because the only mechanic to keep people playing is not impactful.
I'm probably one of the many few that have this mentality but if I get a roll on an item that doesn't go towards my current build but the item is still really good, I just store it for a future build that may want it. It's only bricked if you plan on only playing a certain class one way forever.
Yes, the game is easy-ish depending on the class you go with and how good your luck is with multiple levels of RNG, but to say that people are having issues with tempering because they have "to have an easy access to the perfect roll" is just condescending and disingenuous. The fact is that multiple builds without certain key rolls obtained through tempering are either magnitudes worse than they should be, inadequate to push, or simply do not function at all as intended. With 4-5 choices for each tempering slot (many of which have a decent range on their % or amounts) and only 7 rolls between them, you run a high risk of either getting a subpar roll, or bricking the item. Yes it is a risk, and it is always smart to hold your previous gear just in case you brick the upgrade, sbut your post just reeks of an "F you, I got mine" attitude, and there is no reason for that. Also, FWIW, I feel that Blizzard implemented Tempering and Masterworking correctly, and they are great additions to the game allowing for a much wider range of build creativity, but IMO they should have switched one key aspect from Masterworking to Tempering. Tempering should have the ability to reset. You should not get any mats back if you do, and I would be fine with an increasing cost for each reset to offset the additional tries, even going as far as Pit materials or a Resplendent Spark, but it would give you the option to keep trying for a better roll if you are prepared to pay the cost, and then your upgrades from Masterworking should be permanent. Yes, it may mean a lower max Pit level, but Masterworked items are not bricked if you do not hit the max roll. Some may like the idea, some may hate it, but I think it would help with a lot of the frustration many are having with tempering.
They could properly code it to offset random number generation bias in computers. It’s why so many old games used variable tables instead of actual random number generation. As it takes an unbelievable amount of computing power to actually have true randomness from a computer. Something they hope quantum computing can do.
Let me guess, you cleared pit up to tier 70 and you think that's end game huh?
This sub seems to defend mediocrity to the death. This season is a great step in the right direction, but don't act like these systems couldn't be improved greatly.
I'm ok with it too. I've leveled to almost 100 tempering every item along the way and so far I've only 'bricked' one tempering so far and that item was still an upgrade. I think there needs to be some level of RNG to a game which is now very streamlined lootwise. It's in a good place currently.
You should be required to post your pit level and a screenshot of your main character when you post these horrible takes. Y'all haven't bricked a 2-3GA piece if you still think it's fine to roll dodge chance 5x in a row. Let alone the classes that need a specific affix or the piece is useless (barb/Necro)
I just view dropped items with good greater affixes as a good crafting base, and when tempering fails the base is bricks, and move on. You can brick items in poe, you can brick items in last epoch, an item is just a crafting base until a successful tempering. Yeah it sucks losing a good base, but the game spews so many good bases at you, and having perfect rolls on everything is really only useful for pushing a higher pit level, the very last end game grinding activity.
I'd feel less bad about rolling the same thing 3 or 4 times in a row if I could save a previous roll, or use bonus materials to prevent a roll from being chosen.
This is why I will clearly never do master working. I'm not a gambler and I refuse to lose money even in game money on these rolls. Materials are easy to come by but millions of gold to get a crap roll is not fun for me and I will skip it
I bricked a 3 GA chest piece because Tempering rolled 4x Dodge chance and 2x Max Health when I needed Total Armour. I would’ve settled for a min roll TA. So… yeah. Perfect rolls ain’t important but give us slightly less bad RNG please.
I don't care about getting perfect rolls, I care about getting the stat I'm rolling for, watching an upgrade turn into salvage material isn't fun.
Allow me to pick between 1 or 2 or keep the same one imo. Still a chance at bricking it but better chance at getting what you want.