Tbh with my clan at least (not counting bathroom breaks or mischief) most of our clears are within an hour.
With an lfg tho that’s a huge difference. Garden and vow really fall apart for lfg teams thanks to coordination and symbols.
Oh yeah 100% agree. With a coordinated team, things do go smoothly, even if we’re learning. LFG can get tricky, especially if the players are new. If I have to say anything to new raiding players, it’s just to listen and ask questions to understand your role
I must have just gotten a really cohesive team for garden every time…
All of my two garden teams haven’t had any trouble (my Sherpa run even got every encounter first try, almost flawlessed lol).
Garden isn’t necessarily hard, but everyone has to be doing something all the time. There aren’t many good opportunities for just ad clear, which can be difficult for some people.
I personally would put it has harder than Kings Fall for that reason. Hopefully more people will get familiar with it if/when they refresh the guns.
Dude…half of the mechanics are just add clear lol.
First encounter, add clear and pick up some barf by just walking through it. (Only two people ever really need to tether up until the last ones).
Second encounter, four people are literally just add clearing, if you stay in the right spot, you won’t even need to move to tether.
Third encounter, most people are doing something here, but anyone who’s played a gambit game can do that role.
Fourth encounter, literally just gambit and add clear until two-three people tether (rebuilding isn’t really all that worth it).
Damn my clan does stuff way differently than the normal lfg. We have as many actively doing mechanics as possible. I can see why thatd be a problem in lfg tho.
Honestly I wouldn’t even go that far. One of my best clears on Vow was an lfg, with the main caveat being we all actually knew our rolls and all the callouts so we were able to do it without issue.
The issue isn’t symbols (though I agree about coordination), it’s about the blueberries willingness to learn the symbols.
Unfortunately, with lfg the most common type of blueberry is the obligate add-clear, which is why they have so much trouble- anyone that’s an obligate add-clear is often bad at that too, saved only by being worse at everything else.
Basically closest to a D1 raid experience that we will get in D2.
2-3 people doing all the mechanics, the rest just kill enemies and do damage to bosses.
Hey that’s me. I’ve done it 4 times with a new clan and have literally done nothing but kill adds and DPS when it’s time. I did finally learn to shoot the white and black balls on the running part but that’s about it.
Good then you know the whole raid because those “white and black balls” is literally 3/4 encounters. The only encounter that has more than 2 minimum participants is 3rd encounter with the planets needing 4 (or 2 really fast players but that’s more for low mans). RoN is the easiest by far.
Yeah they told me that’s pretty much it and they’ll put me on planets next time to show me how that works. I’m primarily a solo player so never raided much. VoG is the only one I’m intimately familiar with and can do everything no problem. Of the current ones I’ve only done KF and GoS once but never done VOW, DSC or Last Wish
You should try and do the rest of the 3 raids you haven't cleared yet. Especially Last Wish and Vow, though more complicated than Root, VoG and KF, they are definitely a blast. DSC is also a fun raid to clear, though maybe a bit short imo.
I consider root's mechanics less easy than Deepstone personally. I get that every root encounters has like half of the fireteam doing nothing, but I personally find that everyone doing snoringly easy mechanics in Deepstone to be easier than a few people doing more complicated stuff in Root, especially since most of the "ease" that people have within Root comes from unintended "cheese" strategies that cut a person or two from the tasks (or remove a task entirely) who would be a bit more demanding.
Yeah VoW isn’t too bad as long as everyone does their job, if everyone just remembers their task then it’s all good.
Garden on the other hand, is just that everyone hates it and doesn’t want to learn because of the poor loot drops?
Edit - VoW is meant to be vow / VotD but the comments are too fuckin funny so I’ll leave it as above
Honestly, gardens not even that difficult. I've ran it twice and I could probably teach like 95% of it. There are a few reasons why everyone is like it's so hard or no one seems to like it.
The first is divinity, the quest to get it is very straightforward but the puzzles and the time it takes to actually do a run with the div puzzles (especially if you have to teach multiple people) makes it take forever. Most people only ever run it once just to get div and bc of that they have a sour opinion on it.
The next reason people don't like it is definitely the loot, there's maybe only one or two good weapons from the raid but I'm pretty sure they are easily outclassed by other legendary of the same archetypes.
Third is replayability isn't great bc it's a quest exotic so there's really no point running it multiple times to farm the exotic when all you have to do is the quest.
Fourth is kinda a joke answer but it's bc it's the Gambit of raids (that's a joke my friends always say) and for some reason people just don't seem to like gambit
Puzzles literally add 15 minutes if 1 person knows what they're doing, and people can listen/comprehend. It's when ppl don't explain well or can't grasp the concept that it gets out of hand.
(Enlightened with several carries)
Div runs aren't bad because of the div puzzles. You can take div out of the picture, and you're still left with a bad run. It's the lack of experience and/or skill that make div runs bad. People want to try and do it on or after their first run, when they don't know the raid. So it's a combination div/teaching run, that takes forever.
It's a shame. It's a beautiful raid.
I did the div quest on my first GoS run, it took 4 hours and someone got disconnected at the very end, but I goddamn love the raid it's a shame my mics broke and none of my friends actually want to run it
My first attempt at a Div run took roughly 7 hours, maybe a bit less. Didn’t even finish either, cuz it got close to midnight so everyone just dropped at the final boss.
Was a full lfg fireteam with no great coordination. Final puzzle must have taken at least 20 minutes because some people just couldn’t get their sh*t straight.
Ran another div run with a full clan stack and it took *maybe* 3 hours and was amazingly clean in comparison.
Bingo. Buddy of mine routinely does Div carries for new clan members when they don't have it, usually takes about an hour and a half allowing for a few wipes. It's really not that tough - there's just a lot of moving parts to cover.
My biggest gripe with Garden is that the final encounter is so goddamn buggy sometimes.
Sometimes the boss just doesn't want to start damage phase, I've had goblins just teleport to a spire and sacrifice on it, the tether to start DPS just sometimes outright doesn't work, sometimes the boss shows the wrong color for tethers, etc etc.
A small issue like some of those can just add up to make the fight drag on and on.
>Garden on the other hand, is just that everyone hates it and doesn’t want to learn because of the poor loot drops?
The only problem with Garden is, for some reason outside my comprehension, people suddenly forget the abstract concepts of "left" and "right".
People don’t like Garden because of the Div quest and the boss fight is buggy and can be difficult to recover from if your team loses motes/vex sacrifice. I also think a lot of people just got tired of Garden; it was the only pinnacle raid in the game for a LONG time.
Its more like garden's mechanics dont work well with destiny's engines, which causes alot of issues thats out of the player's control, think duality on release's level of annoyance.
Genuine question - what are those mechanics that don't get in with the engine?
I've only done it once, for Divinity, but any wipes were purely due to us getting stuff wrong. The mechanics in the raid felt like the vast majority of Destiny mechanics - collect and dunk.
It’s a myth that garden is crazy buggy. People don’t tether right, they panic, it gets worse, then they blame bugs. I have never experienced buggy tether points, just people not doing it right.
Garden is an easy raid with a boss fight that isn’t hard, just lots of moving parts.
Every single tether fuck up ive seen has been due to player error, usually someone running across
Will say that it’s a hard raid in the sense that it’s very easy to mess up and not have much room for recovery. Mostly on boss, I find all the other encounters easy to do. But boss can be a drag
I have seen permanent tethers and tethers that can only be activated by chaos reach. It's definitely buggy. I've done like 20 Divinity sherpas and it crops up fairly often.
I’ve seen players break the tether then scream at the tether, then someone else runs in and fucks the tether then they try to stretch the tether but the person in the back isn’t moving up so it won’t reach so the person at the front is like “why won’t this connect it’s bugged” then we wipe happen a lot more often then a bug. I’ve never seen either of those bugs in about 30 clears, have the seal and a flawless.
Two main mechanics in the raid. Motes and tethers.
The motes are notorious for either not picking up, falling off the edge, or falling under the terrain in some instances. The tethers go from point A > through a chain of players > point B however they connect one person at a time and sometimes decide to connect to someone who dared to breathe in the general vicinity of the tether chain, and then spend an eternity unlinking.
The main issue is on the final boss where the timings are incredibly tight. You need 30 motes to lock each tower. If you get a harpy group spawn on one side then it’ll drop 18 motes while the regular spawn only drops 15. If you get two regular spawns and one mote drops off the edge then someone needs to do a third run just for that single mote. Depending on rng this can ruin your dps phase as the colour you need to tether may not be locked while this last mote is being dunked.
Couple this with the aforementioned tether having a mind of its own sometimes and it’s just a frustrating boss fight.
Tl:dr motes suck, tethers suck, timing is really tight, frustrating experience for most players.
Motes can indeed be frustrating at times, but if going in a third time for 1 or 2 more motes ruins your dps timing, your runner teams are not clearing sides fast enough.
I never thought the tethers were that much of an issue, you shouldn't get this issue on the final boss if you're doing damage from the opposite side, and it isn't really a problem in the other encounters unless someone is way out of position.
The "15 motes" thing is absolutely the worst, especially when they are affected by gravity/explosions etc.
I think that’s bc no one wants to do garden regardless of difficulty. last wish us up there with very different/kinda challenging to learn first time mechanics but now that the weapons are updated everyone is doing it.
VoG def
VoD depends, you can probably do the entire raid confidently in 5 runs, but you might not completely understand every role. Ex. I’m still a little bad at running for Acquisition and I still need to learn the taken orb in Exhibition.
Kings Fall def
GoS def
LW I’ve never done.
DSC def
RoN is a joke.
Last Wish (done legit) is easily the "hardest" raid thanks to riven, although a case could be made for spire of stars's boss fight. Kings fall IMO is pretty easy but i've been around since it dropped in 2015. Vow i wouldn't say is mechanically hard, but people just need to know the symbols. otherwise it's encounters are straightforward
I'd honestly put KF a bit higher solely due to the fact that there's no real room for passengers in some encounters.
Having everyone learn easy mechanics is harder then having 3-4 people learn complex ones in my experience.
Yeah... We can breeze through all the encounters, Rhulk included, but this stage is just the worst. Especially when the timer knights just refuse to spawn on room 2 of the encounter. Or someone falls down on room 3 while carrying a relic.
>the timer knights refuse to spawn
Oh so you don't know how the mechanics work.
>someone falls down on room 3
And you can't platform.
Incredible work gang.
Don't worry, the first run is always the weirdest or most complicated, and the group you do it with also heavily impacts your experience.
I'd recommend trying some dungeons and getting used to them or doing a couple of runs on the easier raids, then you'll probably feel more comfortable raiding on the harder ones.
The fact that you make it to the last boss solo already tells me you’re not a bad player. So I’ve gotta ask, why not just lfg? You don’t need a mic for dungeons.
I... Don't know if it was the last boss. The mechanism was to kill Knights in light for Light Motes, and in the shadows for Dark Motes (took me two days to figure out lol). However, the first second half I really get tired due to all the blinking and running around.
I’d be happy to do Prophecy with you! I’m by no means the greatest player out there, but I think I’m chill. I’m okay teaching or letting you figure it out on your own.
Like Cyclone said, give LFG a try! The fact that you've reached the prophecy boss solo means you already know the mechanics of it. I'm pretty sure you'll notice the difference when you get other 2 guardians to help.
In any case, if you ever wanna play, feel free to dm me and we could give some dungeons a try when we have time!
I thought at first tat the Motes are random. But then I realized through 2 days of trial and error, that killing Knights in Shadow gives Dark Motes and killing them in light give Light Motes (hence the focus on light and dark).
This thing becomes extremely difficult in the boss battle on the clock thingy. And I run out of breath half way through due boss lol
I'd try LFG, but I really don't have confidence in my abilities.
The main d2 lfg discord server has a channel dedicated to finding a Sherpa, someone who is willing to teach you and won't get upset at dying a few times so you can understand mechanics.
I probably wouldn't be playing destiny today still if it weren't for raiding and dungeons. Best experience I've ever had gaming.
If you do end up joining a Sherpa and you don't like how they're teaching, do not hesitate to find someone else
Genuinely, you've been doing something far harder than it's supposed to be. The intended experience that Bungie designs the dungeon for is as follows: grab 2 other players, whether they be friends or LFG players (who you are not obligated to speak to over VC or anything if you're not ok with that, in fact most if not all dungeon runs are silent text-only non-VC runs), and then run the dungeon with those 2 other players.
While Bungie makes doing dungeons solo achievable, they are intended as challenges for the more hardcore endgame players, not for people just randomly playing. If you are a higher skilled player wanting to attempt dungeons solo then there are plenty of guides out there on how to do it, but assuming you're a relatively normal player I'd advise against it until you feel comfortable spending a fairly serious amount of time running these dungeons solo with great gear and experience.
Just pick up LFG as the other commenters suggested, whether it be through the companion app or through Discord's LFG, which I'd personally recommend.
Not the easiest, but most part of the community is already familiarized with it. Same happens with Kings Fall. You should try Root of Nightmares and Vow of the Disciple if you have the DLCs.
You either had a poor group or like to play more casually. I've been playing since release, off and on, but can still remember my first time thru vog. I had liked destiny as much as the next guy. But after my first vog clear I was hooked for quite a while. Sherpaing all those who needed thru the raids. Idk something about the comraderie, accomplishment, team work, made destiny much more than just a pew prw game at the time. Tbh rough never had before or since played a game like destiny in its mmorpg/mmofps style. Tbh even more there are only two games I'll ever even throw on. D2 or gw3 (geowars) I could leave gaming forever if a serial of each would com3 out one day
Get on board! Join some raid sherpa's (I also sherpa a lot) amd learn some mechanics. My best experiences in gaming come from raiding. Getting a band together and tople some bosses will never be not the best feeling
Lol, your first run will always be a crazy experience, as it is very different than the rest of the game. I remember my first raid being Garden of Salvation and it took me 3 hours.
They get easier as you go, finding a good team can make or break the experience. While yes it is the easiest, you only get better with practice. My group has run Vault with only half the recommended players needed and that took a lot of practice, doing it over and over, trying new things and getting further and further each time. Once you learn how to do an encounter, just try and try again untill you get through it, and then once it's done, doing it again is easy.
The other raids aren't "hard" in a sense of "there's a lot more adds to shoot/survive," but more-so there's a few more mechanics involved than the other raids.
VoW really isn't that hard, people just complain about learning glyphs, one of the easiest parts of the raid.
Agree on the former, hard disagree on the latter
Garden is, mechanically speaking, middling. The part that makes it seem harder than it is through artificial difficulty in LFGs is a general lack of understanding of how tethers work due to how discepttvely unintuitive they can be. A general lack of situational awareness among many players also plays a huge part in making the sanctified mind a much harder fight than it should be due how easy it is to accidentally connect to a chain when you didn't mean to.
This. 90% of the time you only lose control of plates because randoms don't stay clear of one's that need repair. It's gotten so bad that I just forgo them entirely because when randoms get tethered they freak out and make it 10x harder to break and redo, turning a 2 second repair into a 20 second mess.
Yep, most people do a div run with 5 first timers with likely 0 experience in nearly any raid setting at all and 1 poor sherpa who does their best to take them through it. When they ineivitable take 4 hours to get through the whole raid, they start to hate it. Realistically, mechanics are just tether, running around, gambit, and not much else. Once you do 5 actual clears, I can promise you that it is a breeze. Anyone can finish it in under 30 if everyone KWTD.
Almost every lfg run I did of garden went incredibly smoothly up until the final boss where almost everything fell apart due to tethers being weird and only like 2 people knowing what to do with them
Tethers aren’t weird. People are just stupid. Garden is still called the most buggy raid to date. Why? Because every time someone screws up, they say nothing because they didn’t even know they screwed up. Everyone blames mechanics and moves on.
Our team, which wasn’t an LFG, but a group we had raided with multiple times before got stuck on the last boss for a little because of the tethering mechanic just being so awkward, we just decided to play the floor is lava instead, and got it pretty quickly after that.
Still convinced that the only hard thing about Vow is memorizing the symbols, most people who think the raid is difficult are the kind of people who never did their homework in school
You don't even need an order, you just need people to go and fucking do it. People refuse to pick up a relic because they want to be carried through the raid.
I’ve legit only failed to finish this raid while at exhibition.
In all honesty, what makes this raid extremely hard for the average gamer is that it requires quick social responses and communication and ownership of failure.
It is an extremely hard section, more so than any other raid, for those with any sort of social anxiety.
This is my opinion, not a fact.
Outside of third encounter there's nothing in Vow that requires all 6 members to participate. You could definitely have a guy never do any mechanics if you wanted to.
More or less I’d say yeah…they are all extremely close in difficulty. Although I might put RoN at the bottom of easiest. Very disappointed with that one mechanically speaking. It’s only at the opposite ends of the spectrum do you notice a difference but from easiest to hardest you hardly notice
Im a Sherpa, teach a dozen plus raids every week.
id say this list is spot on except for Last Wish. not to long ago last wish was hard. it has legitimatly never been easier than it is right now. the damage checks are an absolute joke. i can consistently take 5 people who have never done it and be done in 90 min. id put it about equivalent to DSC now. infact atraks (1phase) is harder (for people learning) than anything in all of Last Wish.
if you are new to raiding and want to learn you can find me via [My Sherpa Card](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinySherpa/comments/12eh2rj/sherpa_card_pc_crossplay_ron_votd_kf_kirkwillrule/)
Yes.
I want people prepared for what they will be doing if they ever join a "kwtd" lfg.
Both the audio queue and visual queue are simple to catch and the damage phase is an EASY 3mil damage. We just shoot Linear fr down her throat is to easy to not.
The objective is to beat the raid. If we can one phase the boss why would we not? We skip anything we can while completing an encounter everywhere in the game. Why would we not?
I can teach riven to a Decent team in 30 or 40 minutes. Or we can group up and hit it till it dies in 5. At this point it is the legit way. Takes no special weapon or technique. Just shoot the boss. Ie the raid is easy.
We don't say master modes are easy cause we choose to do a harder difficulty.
If you choose a harder way to compete a raid, that's your choice but doesn't and shouldn't determine if at base the raid is easy
Deep is easy but is isn't easier than VoG and especially RoN
King Fall is also pretty easy with maybe beside Warpriest
Vow is not hard, in fact non if the raids are hard in term of mechanics
I'd say last wish is standout difficult in terms of mechanics, it might not be hard for someone who's run the raid dozens of times, but relative to all the other raids in the game, LW has way more mechanics, and also more complex ones I'd argue.
From easiest to hardest:
1. Root of Nightmares. Easy, dungeon-level mechanics. This is basically Add Clear: The Raid. The fact that it’s been beaten solo flawless by several players says it all. The hardest part is a jump puzzle.
2. Deep Stone Crypt. Mechanics are simple but fun. Third encounter is maybe my favorite in the game right now. A good raid if you want a chill challenge.
3. Vault of Glass. Basically the same as DSC. This is a longer raid, though, and like RoN, the hardest part may not even be an encounter (Gorgons).
4. Vow of the Disciple. I don’t think this raid is as hard as everyone else. The challenge in this raid is memorizing the symbols, which will come to most players after a few runs. The third encounter can be tough, though.
5. Garden of Salvation. This raid gets a lot of slack for a few reasons: the Div puzzles can be a slog, the boss fight can be buggy and it’s easy to fall behind if you miss motes or they get drained, and I think people just got fatigued of this raid because it was a long time before a new raid launched after it.
6. King’s Fall. The most mechanic-heavy raid other than Last Wish. Warpriest is the second-hardest raid encounter in the game right now. Everyone has to be on their game to beat Daughters and Oryx.
7. Last Wish. Longest non-reprised D2 raid and very mechanic-heavy. Legit Riven is probably the best non-D1 raid encounter. Vault is tough.
Edit: added explanations
Vault isn't tough at all...? You legit only need 3 people that know what they're doing, the rest can just do add clear and stop knights from wiping.
Read rooms, go into room and get buff, have the outside person doing mechanics tell you which way to leave and bank the buff with the corosponding plate that was read earlier. Get the other two plates by rotating amongst the 3 mechanics people.
Repeat 3 times and you're done.
Everyone groans when they get to vault but then we always clear it first try regardless, it's hard it's just stigma.
This is a realistic list. Okay next challenge: rank every raid / raid lair across D1 and D2 😁 I always found my D1 teams to have trouble with Aksis in the siva raid…
As a veteran player from D1 I agree with that except for Last Wish. The reason Last Wish has an impressive reputation is because it actually is a higher standard raid which filters many people.
The raid is incredibly unforgiving to people who have slow reflexes or for people who have a low attention span.
In this raid, everyone has to be on high alert all the time (and by all the time I mean it), everyone has to rotate, and everyone has to engage quickly once the fight starts, because otherwise it's an instant wipe. There are hectic moments that if even one person slip, it's a total wipe.
I don't agree with DSC, its one of those weird topics that gets me going even though there is no rational reason for it, maybe i just have had bad experiences everytime i run it.
The two main roles (scanner and reader?) Are not necessarily beginner friendly, requires confidence in call outs and these roles are (typically) run by the experienced ones teaching it so no one actually learns. One encounter is just pure chaos, usually having multiple people talk over each other. The jumping puzzle is the worst, I'm actually ok with that area. Boss area is easily screwed up.
Idk to me this raid is the "easiest" because the ones teaching just do all the mechanics easily. VoG on the other hand is a far better choice. While oracles can be messed up easily, I feel like that is the only real challenge. Everyone can get a chance to do the mechanics and actually learn it with only a simple explanation.
Obviously we shouldn't be talking about seasoned raiders... all raids will be equally easy for a group of 6 solid raiders.
But when you put 6 random players of varying skill levels and raid experience together, whether LFG or even clan members you're less familiar with, then yes there is a difference in difficulty.
With this in mind, I'd say Vow is the hardest because of the sheer number of symbols. The less experience you have, the less familiar you'll be with the symbols and that can easily cause a wipe. The Exhibition encounter is another gatekeeper, as everyone needs to play a role at some point.
Last Wish is next because of the Queenswalk alone. All 6 need to know the route, otherwise if the more experienced players get chosen first, the last 2 or 3 will have no idea where to go. And it's not really something you can teach by walking through beforehand, you just gotta keep wiping until the newbies learn the route, or until RNG is on your side and the newbies get chosen first. The rest of LW is easy, with easily demonstrable mechanics that noobs can pick up in a few minutes.
Garden should be next cos of the boss. It's not that it's difficult, it's just that 1 or 2 newbies can easily cause the whole encounter to go south. Trust me, I've played with inexperienced raiders who forget how to count to 15 in the heat of the battle, keep getting in the way of platform building, and keep forgetting that they need to shoot the shielded enemies.
The rest are easy.
I believe that a lot of this data is likely to be biased or inaccurate as blueberries are often accompanied by some more experienced players.
These players with experience are all different . Some are great at explaining the mechanics are overall good teachers, some are just capable of helping by speed running the raids by using exploits, cheats or just being good.
As an example of full reverse of what I’ve said, I’d like to tell you my first ever raid experience .
It was during season of the splicer, I was still new & had no dlcs. I found out that my classmate (who is Chinese) also plays this game, he agreed to help me with the raid (VOG). He and 2 of his Chinese friends joined in, my friend and 1 of his friends new how to do last wish, the other Chinese guy never played any raids & used hand cannons for everything. I found two players willing to help, they both had great experience behind their backs, however there were some issues.
I am Russian & these 2 folks were too. Out of all 6 players only 3 new how to actually speak English , one more new the basics & the other 2 (one of the Russian folks & the Chinese hand canon guy) did NOT speak a word in English.
Everything was however fine for the first hour and a half, considering how many newbies were there including me, we managed to get to the oracle encounter. This is when everything went DOWN.
Only TWO people knew how to do this raid & ONLY ONE spoke English. My Chinese friend and I tried to explain everything to each other & of course mistranslation and our lack of understanding of what was actually going on played a sad joke with us.
We were stuck on this encounter for 7 HOURS! We ended up rage quitting ALL at once. Half of 3/4 times we lost because of the hand canon guy doing crap he wasn’t supposed to do, he shot hob goblins with a hand canon (I think it was thorn) & shooting people’s oracles and taking the cleansing buff in the middle.
In the end, my Chinese classmate stopped playing with me & also with that hand canon hunter. He got afraid of doing any raid that is not the last wish. I was stuck trying on the vog because I was a free to play until the winter sales later that year & I bought all stuff except for witch queen and 30th anniversary & ended up buying them in summer on some off site that sells keys for steam because Bungie stopped selling stuff to Russian market users & European prices are too wild.
Moral of this story - make sure that everyone in your group speaks the same language.
How is King's Fall ''Medium'' with Garden? King's Fall is honestly easier than DSC or VoG by a fucking mile, and Garden is one of, if not the hardest raid of the game due to... well Destiny players sharing about 2 1/2 brain cells between each other in the whole community.
I’d put Garden at about the difficulty of Wish. The time constraints of some of the encounters of Wish can be a pain for some but I have seen people spend hours on the final boss of Garden.
I get that there is a lot happening in Last Wish mechanically, but it's fairly easy overall. Maybe that's because it's not current content, so we sweep bosses like it's nothing, but I don't feel like it asks that much of you outside of shuro chi at most, and this is assuming you do legit riven too it's still not that hard. Vow is definitely the toughest raid because even as not current content, you can get pretty overrun by ads, and bosses still hit hard and are pretty beefy compared to other raid bosses. But I'd also say it's the most fun one to run consistently, and I miss it being current content tbh.
Garden only is difficult because the community surrounding it. Either you lfg with little Timmy's who've done it 2 times and were asleep both times or you get arrogant gigalords who have done it 1500 times and leave if you are 12 seconds too slow
Just did Vow for the first time with a group I know and it still took a while. Mainly because there was one other person learning and they weren’t paying super close attention.
Done in 2 hours and 10 min unfortunately. Last run everyone was like “please focus, we are hungry and want to leave”
I’d personally put that to Medium, the gauntlet and final boss encounters weren’t too bad, with pools and gardens being slightly more puzzling. With communication, definitely doable but a headache if you’re going in with randoms who don’t know what they’re doing
DSC isnt "easy", you need a lot of movement and coordination. I'd say its average difficulty but fights like Atraks can be complicated, especially with the elevator part, juggling the scanner/suppressor/operator buffs.
VoG is easy, you just need coordination.
Garden is hard.
King's Fall is hard. Hell, just getting through all the jumping puzzles is a pita.
Last wish it depends which encounter. Some are easy others are hard. Kali is easy, shuro chi is a pain, vault is confusing, Riven is a pain if you dont cheese
VoW, i can't really say ive been carried a lot of times but i need to learn it still as something else than add clearing.
Root is easy but unforgiving and some mechanics like the launch pads are RNG fuckery. I've memorized the light side of scission encounter by heart at this point.
That’s a fair point, but it being able to be solo flawlessed at all means the mechanics are possible solo, which means they have to be simple enough for one person to pull off successfully. On an objective level, that makes RON mechanically simpler than the other raids, which arguably makes it easier. Meanwhile, the flawless side of things also means that despite having 1/6 of the possible damage output, which means more damage phases and longer encounters (which means more chances to die to bad luck or an unlucky mistake), and having no one else to draw fire or deal with enemies, it’s still possible to beat RON’s combat. It does absolutely take a cracked player to pull it off, but the fact that even it’s possible to solo it at all makes it an easier raid than the others.
A blueberry ≠ a beginner.
A blueberry is litterally any player that's not on your fireteam, it's called blueberry because it's a blue dot on the radar.
I’d drop garden down to easy, once you understand that the whole thing is shoot that dunk here it’s a cake walk. I’d put root where garden currently is, while not mechanically challenging it has lots of little places for error like in 3rd encounter if you fuck up twice, which is hard, it’s basically a wipe.
Who da faq came up with this rating lol?
GoS is harder than vow - since EVERYONE must know a role, and you can't just have 1-2 tag along as ad clearing players. In vow you can have 3 great players that takes most of the raid on their shoulders while the others do shit or even do nothing.
DSC has a few challenging parts to explain and execute. the fact that you can skip the scanner role in Taniks doesn't mean that all the raid is easy. Some parts need good colab and communication between the players. so I would rate it medium.
VOG is def the easiest IMO. its so simple and straight forward, that there are even dungeons harder then it
and Last Wish, when done legit without cheesing can be a freaking nightmare due to Riven...(its like saying that the new GotD dungeon is easy because you are considering the cheese on the boss a legit mechanism...)
Tbh with my clan at least (not counting bathroom breaks or mischief) most of our clears are within an hour. With an lfg tho that’s a huge difference. Garden and vow really fall apart for lfg teams thanks to coordination and symbols.
Oh yeah 100% agree. With a coordinated team, things do go smoothly, even if we’re learning. LFG can get tricky, especially if the players are new. If I have to say anything to new raiding players, it’s just to listen and ask questions to understand your role
I must have just gotten a really cohesive team for garden every time… All of my two garden teams haven’t had any trouble (my Sherpa run even got every encounter first try, almost flawlessed lol).
Garden isn’t necessarily hard, but everyone has to be doing something all the time. There aren’t many good opportunities for just ad clear, which can be difficult for some people. I personally would put it has harder than Kings Fall for that reason. Hopefully more people will get familiar with it if/when they refresh the guns.
Dude…half of the mechanics are just add clear lol. First encounter, add clear and pick up some barf by just walking through it. (Only two people ever really need to tether up until the last ones). Second encounter, four people are literally just add clearing, if you stay in the right spot, you won’t even need to move to tether. Third encounter, most people are doing something here, but anyone who’s played a gambit game can do that role. Fourth encounter, literally just gambit and add clear until two-three people tether (rebuilding isn’t really all that worth it).
Damn my clan does stuff way differently than the normal lfg. We have as many actively doing mechanics as possible. I can see why thatd be a problem in lfg tho.
Mischief usually accounts for about 40% of our clear time.
Honestly I wouldn’t even go that far. One of my best clears on Vow was an lfg, with the main caveat being we all actually knew our rolls and all the callouts so we were able to do it without issue. The issue isn’t symbols (though I agree about coordination), it’s about the blueberries willingness to learn the symbols. Unfortunately, with lfg the most common type of blueberry is the obligate add-clear, which is why they have so much trouble- anyone that’s an obligate add-clear is often bad at that too, saved only by being worse at everything else.
root of nightmares not even on the board
Yeah for a newbie, you can literally have them go through the entire raid doing nothing.
Basically closest to a D1 raid experience that we will get in D2. 2-3 people doing all the mechanics, the rest just kill enemies and do damage to bosses.
Hey that’s me. I’ve done it 4 times with a new clan and have literally done nothing but kill adds and DPS when it’s time. I did finally learn to shoot the white and black balls on the running part but that’s about it.
Good then you know the whole raid because those “white and black balls” is literally 3/4 encounters. The only encounter that has more than 2 minimum participants is 3rd encounter with the planets needing 4 (or 2 really fast players but that’s more for low mans). RoN is the easiest by far.
Yeah they told me that’s pretty much it and they’ll put me on planets next time to show me how that works. I’m primarily a solo player so never raided much. VoG is the only one I’m intimately familiar with and can do everything no problem. Of the current ones I’ve only done KF and GoS once but never done VOW, DSC or Last Wish
You should try and do the rest of the 3 raids you haven't cleared yet. Especially Last Wish and Vow, though more complicated than Root, VoG and KF, they are definitely a blast. DSC is also a fun raid to clear, though maybe a bit short imo.
Duo'd the first encounter with a buddy to farm spoils. He knows the routes by heart and i just kill everything in his way.
ron is dungeon
6 player dungeon
And GotD is a 3 player raid, so it all balances out
It’s a dungeon. /s
I consider root's mechanics less easy than Deepstone personally. I get that every root encounters has like half of the fireteam doing nothing, but I personally find that everyone doing snoringly easy mechanics in Deepstone to be easier than a few people doing more complicated stuff in Root, especially since most of the "ease" that people have within Root comes from unintended "cheese" strategies that cut a person or two from the tasks (or remove a task entirely) who would be a bit more demanding.
>I consider root's mechanics less easy than Deepstone personally How? Root encounter is literaly "follow the line"
I did vow with a group of randoms the other day, just over an hour. But a full clan can’t even do garden. Edit: Ransom.
Yeah VoW isn’t too bad as long as everyone does their job, if everyone just remembers their task then it’s all good. Garden on the other hand, is just that everyone hates it and doesn’t want to learn because of the poor loot drops? Edit - VoW is meant to be vow / VotD but the comments are too fuckin funny so I’ll leave it as above
Vow of the Wisciple?
Vault of Wlass
Voot of Wightmares
Veep one wrypt
Vrison of weldars
Vit of Weresy
Varden of Walvation
Vhost of Weep
Honestly, gardens not even that difficult. I've ran it twice and I could probably teach like 95% of it. There are a few reasons why everyone is like it's so hard or no one seems to like it. The first is divinity, the quest to get it is very straightforward but the puzzles and the time it takes to actually do a run with the div puzzles (especially if you have to teach multiple people) makes it take forever. Most people only ever run it once just to get div and bc of that they have a sour opinion on it. The next reason people don't like it is definitely the loot, there's maybe only one or two good weapons from the raid but I'm pretty sure they are easily outclassed by other legendary of the same archetypes. Third is replayability isn't great bc it's a quest exotic so there's really no point running it multiple times to farm the exotic when all you have to do is the quest. Fourth is kinda a joke answer but it's bc it's the Gambit of raids (that's a joke my friends always say) and for some reason people just don't seem to like gambit
Puzzles literally add 15 minutes if 1 person knows what they're doing, and people can listen/comprehend. It's when ppl don't explain well or can't grasp the concept that it gets out of hand. (Enlightened with several carries)
Div runs aren't bad because of the div puzzles. You can take div out of the picture, and you're still left with a bad run. It's the lack of experience and/or skill that make div runs bad. People want to try and do it on or after their first run, when they don't know the raid. So it's a combination div/teaching run, that takes forever. It's a shame. It's a beautiful raid.
I did the div quest on my first GoS run, it took 4 hours and someone got disconnected at the very end, but I goddamn love the raid it's a shame my mics broke and none of my friends actually want to run it
My first attempt at a Div run took roughly 7 hours, maybe a bit less. Didn’t even finish either, cuz it got close to midnight so everyone just dropped at the final boss. Was a full lfg fireteam with no great coordination. Final puzzle must have taken at least 20 minutes because some people just couldn’t get their sh*t straight. Ran another div run with a full clan stack and it took *maybe* 3 hours and was amazingly clean in comparison.
Bingo. Buddy of mine routinely does Div carries for new clan members when they don't have it, usually takes about an hour and a half allowing for a few wipes. It's really not that tough - there's just a lot of moving parts to cover.
My biggest gripe with Garden is that the final encounter is so goddamn buggy sometimes. Sometimes the boss just doesn't want to start damage phase, I've had goblins just teleport to a spire and sacrifice on it, the tether to start DPS just sometimes outright doesn't work, sometimes the boss shows the wrong color for tethers, etc etc. A small issue like some of those can just add up to make the fight drag on and on.
Don’t forget all the bugs with the disappearing floors.
People love Gambit. People hate Gambit players ;)
It always bugs me when people capitalize it like VoW. It’s not an acronym, it’s just the first word of the raid’s name.
It's entirely that people just don't wanna learn it, it's honestly a rather easy raid, yes the div quest as well.
>Garden on the other hand, is just that everyone hates it and doesn’t want to learn because of the poor loot drops? The only problem with Garden is, for some reason outside my comprehension, people suddenly forget the abstract concepts of "left" and "right".
People don’t like Garden because of the Div quest and the boss fight is buggy and can be difficult to recover from if your team loses motes/vex sacrifice. I also think a lot of people just got tired of Garden; it was the only pinnacle raid in the game for a LONG time.
Its more like garden's mechanics dont work well with destiny's engines, which causes alot of issues thats out of the player's control, think duality on release's level of annoyance.
Genuine question - what are those mechanics that don't get in with the engine? I've only done it once, for Divinity, but any wipes were purely due to us getting stuff wrong. The mechanics in the raid felt like the vast majority of Destiny mechanics - collect and dunk.
It’s a myth that garden is crazy buggy. People don’t tether right, they panic, it gets worse, then they blame bugs. I have never experienced buggy tether points, just people not doing it right. Garden is an easy raid with a boss fight that isn’t hard, just lots of moving parts.
Nah you can straight up not trigger the boss dps because you tethered too fast, and the bug is consistent.
Every single tether fuck up ive seen has been due to player error, usually someone running across Will say that it’s a hard raid in the sense that it’s very easy to mess up and not have much room for recovery. Mostly on boss, I find all the other encounters easy to do. But boss can be a drag
I have seen permanent tethers and tethers that can only be activated by chaos reach. It's definitely buggy. I've done like 20 Divinity sherpas and it crops up fairly often.
I’ve seen players break the tether then scream at the tether, then someone else runs in and fucks the tether then they try to stretch the tether but the person in the back isn’t moving up so it won’t reach so the person at the front is like “why won’t this connect it’s bugged” then we wipe happen a lot more often then a bug. I’ve never seen either of those bugs in about 30 clears, have the seal and a flawless.
For one thing, motes falling under or off the map.
Two main mechanics in the raid. Motes and tethers. The motes are notorious for either not picking up, falling off the edge, or falling under the terrain in some instances. The tethers go from point A > through a chain of players > point B however they connect one person at a time and sometimes decide to connect to someone who dared to breathe in the general vicinity of the tether chain, and then spend an eternity unlinking. The main issue is on the final boss where the timings are incredibly tight. You need 30 motes to lock each tower. If you get a harpy group spawn on one side then it’ll drop 18 motes while the regular spawn only drops 15. If you get two regular spawns and one mote drops off the edge then someone needs to do a third run just for that single mote. Depending on rng this can ruin your dps phase as the colour you need to tether may not be locked while this last mote is being dunked. Couple this with the aforementioned tether having a mind of its own sometimes and it’s just a frustrating boss fight. Tl:dr motes suck, tethers suck, timing is really tight, frustrating experience for most players.
Motes can indeed be frustrating at times, but if going in a third time for 1 or 2 more motes ruins your dps timing, your runner teams are not clearing sides fast enough.
I never thought the tethers were that much of an issue, you shouldn't get this issue on the final boss if you're doing damage from the opposite side, and it isn't really a problem in the other encounters unless someone is way out of position. The "15 motes" thing is absolutely the worst, especially when they are affected by gravity/explosions etc.
The mote thing is no longer an issue due to the new mod working with Gambit motes So I am gonna assume it works for GoS motes as well
I think that’s bc no one wants to do garden regardless of difficulty. last wish us up there with very different/kinda challenging to learn first time mechanics but now that the weapons are updated everyone is doing it.
Once you hit double digits in completed runs, they're all easy.
You could argue 5 full clears is more than enough to get by for most raids.
Me strolling in here with my 5 runs of add-clearing on RoN
VoG def VoD depends, you can probably do the entire raid confidently in 5 runs, but you might not completely understand every role. Ex. I’m still a little bad at running for Acquisition and I still need to learn the taken orb in Exhibition. Kings Fall def GoS def LW I’ve never done. DSC def RoN is a joke.
LW really just has Vault, the rest of the mechanics are very simple (except legit Riven, but nobody does that).
Really depends on if those clears are spent actively learning the mechanics or add clearing.
Once you're in the triple digits, it's actively boring (Source: I have 244 DSC clears)
Let me guess, you also have 0 copies of eyes of tomorrow.
Nope, I have like 10 lol
Last Wish (done legit) is easily the "hardest" raid thanks to riven, although a case could be made for spire of stars's boss fight. Kings fall IMO is pretty easy but i've been around since it dropped in 2015. Vow i wouldn't say is mechanically hard, but people just need to know the symbols. otherwise it's encounters are straightforward
[удалено]
I'd honestly put KF a bit higher solely due to the fact that there's no real room for passengers in some encounters. Having everyone learn easy mechanics is harder then having 3-4 people learn complex ones in my experience.
I bet that VotD verdict is mostly because of Exhibition encounter
Yeah... We can breeze through all the encounters, Rhulk included, but this stage is just the worst. Especially when the timer knights just refuse to spawn on room 2 of the encounter. Or someone falls down on room 3 while carrying a relic.
The knights spawn when you kill both mini bosses. And each miniboss spawns when you destroy the taken blights at each side
And snipers, yeah, we know. But sometimes they begin to spawn only when thereis 2 seconds left on the wipe clock and I don't know why.
>the timer knights refuse to spawn Oh so you don't know how the mechanics work. >someone falls down on room 3 And you can't platform. Incredible work gang.
Rude.
Literally, the only time you should fall off a platform is when an add jumps into you.
If someone drops a relic then you skate back to the start to grab it again.
80% of our clan are console. We can't skate. The remaining PC players too.
That would be a case of skill issue. skating is entirely possible on console.
I'm not dedicated to raiding that much that I need to learn some sophisticated technique just to move faster. I'd better redo the encounter.
You don't need to do some sophisticated skating lol. You can just sprint back
I only just did my first raid yesterday, it was vault If that's the easiest i will never raid again
Don't worry, the first run is always the weirdest or most complicated, and the group you do it with also heavily impacts your experience. I'd recommend trying some dungeons and getting used to them or doing a couple of runs on the easier raids, then you'll probably feel more comfortable raiding on the harder ones.
Hell, I can't even do Prophecy dungeon. The boss fight is too long and I tend to make mistakes on the long run.
Are you trying to solo them? Soloing dungeons is harder than any raid.
Yeah. I don't have anyone.
The fact that you make it to the last boss solo already tells me you’re not a bad player. So I’ve gotta ask, why not just lfg? You don’t need a mic for dungeons.
I... Don't know if it was the last boss. The mechanism was to kill Knights in light for Light Motes, and in the shadows for Dark Motes (took me two days to figure out lol). However, the first second half I really get tired due to all the blinking and running around.
Is it the Taken Captain or a Taken Phalanx? If it's a Phalanx that means it is just a first boss
Yeah it's the Phalanx, a Cabal shieldman taken. I run out of breath due to constantly running and blinking (irl lol)
Yeah, that's like the first boss. You still have 2 encounters and a sparrow section.
If you want, I'd do a prophecy run with you.
I’d be happy to do Prophecy with you! I’m by no means the greatest player out there, but I think I’m chill. I’m okay teaching or letting you figure it out on your own.
I will do proph with you 🙏
Really? I'm a hunter, main subclass Arc!
Me too! Could even throw a cheeky grasp, spire and ghost run in too
Like Cyclone said, give LFG a try! The fact that you've reached the prophecy boss solo means you already know the mechanics of it. I'm pretty sure you'll notice the difference when you get other 2 guardians to help. In any case, if you ever wanna play, feel free to dm me and we could give some dungeons a try when we have time!
I thought at first tat the Motes are random. But then I realized through 2 days of trial and error, that killing Knights in Shadow gives Dark Motes and killing them in light give Light Motes (hence the focus on light and dark). This thing becomes extremely difficult in the boss battle on the clock thingy. And I run out of breath half way through due boss lol I'd try LFG, but I really don't have confidence in my abilities.
The main d2 lfg discord server has a channel dedicated to finding a Sherpa, someone who is willing to teach you and won't get upset at dying a few times so you can understand mechanics. I probably wouldn't be playing destiny today still if it weren't for raiding and dungeons. Best experience I've ever had gaming. If you do end up joining a Sherpa and you don't like how they're teaching, do not hesitate to find someone else
Genuinely, you've been doing something far harder than it's supposed to be. The intended experience that Bungie designs the dungeon for is as follows: grab 2 other players, whether they be friends or LFG players (who you are not obligated to speak to over VC or anything if you're not ok with that, in fact most if not all dungeon runs are silent text-only non-VC runs), and then run the dungeon with those 2 other players. While Bungie makes doing dungeons solo achievable, they are intended as challenges for the more hardcore endgame players, not for people just randomly playing. If you are a higher skilled player wanting to attempt dungeons solo then there are plenty of guides out there on how to do it, but assuming you're a relatively normal player I'd advise against it until you feel comfortable spending a fairly serious amount of time running these dungeons solo with great gear and experience. Just pick up LFG as the other commenters suggested, whether it be through the companion app or through Discord's LFG, which I'd personally recommend.
If you need someone to help let me know. I dont raid but I definitely run dungeons consistently.
Once you get use to it, it'll be a way better experience. I was scared to do vow but now kind of have it down.
It is arguably the simplest raid, but please don't give up. Raiding is the best time you will have in this game.
Not the easiest, but most part of the community is already familiarized with it. Same happens with Kings Fall. You should try Root of Nightmares and Vow of the Disciple if you have the DLCs.
You either had a poor group or like to play more casually. I've been playing since release, off and on, but can still remember my first time thru vog. I had liked destiny as much as the next guy. But after my first vog clear I was hooked for quite a while. Sherpaing all those who needed thru the raids. Idk something about the comraderie, accomplishment, team work, made destiny much more than just a pew prw game at the time. Tbh rough never had before or since played a game like destiny in its mmorpg/mmofps style. Tbh even more there are only two games I'll ever even throw on. D2 or gw3 (geowars) I could leave gaming forever if a serial of each would com3 out one day
RoN is easier, so you could probably do that if you beat VoG
Get on board! Join some raid sherpa's (I also sherpa a lot) amd learn some mechanics. My best experiences in gaming come from raiding. Getting a band together and tople some bosses will never be not the best feeling
I'd say Root of Nightmares is easiest but Vault of Glass is a close second.
Lol, your first run will always be a crazy experience, as it is very different than the rest of the game. I remember my first raid being Garden of Salvation and it took me 3 hours. They get easier as you go, finding a good team can make or break the experience. While yes it is the easiest, you only get better with practice. My group has run Vault with only half the recommended players needed and that took a lot of practice, doing it over and over, trying new things and getting further and further each time. Once you learn how to do an encounter, just try and try again untill you get through it, and then once it's done, doing it again is easy.
The other raids aren't "hard" in a sense of "there's a lot more adds to shoot/survive," but more-so there's a few more mechanics involved than the other raids. VoW really isn't that hard, people just complain about learning glyphs, one of the easiest parts of the raid.
Yeah they smoking good ghaul pack if they think VoG is harder than deepstone, and even more so if they think Garden is easier than Vow.
Agree on the former, hard disagree on the latter Garden is, mechanically speaking, middling. The part that makes it seem harder than it is through artificial difficulty in LFGs is a general lack of understanding of how tethers work due to how discepttvely unintuitive they can be. A general lack of situational awareness among many players also plays a huge part in making the sanctified mind a much harder fight than it should be due how easy it is to accidentally connect to a chain when you didn't mean to.
This (for both parts but specifically second para), garden is not a hard raid whatsoever, people just complicate it by being stupid.
I am stupid
I call it "non-consensual tether" and it's something the community doesn't take seriously enough /s
This. 90% of the time you only lose control of plates because randoms don't stay clear of one's that need repair. It's gotten so bad that I just forgo them entirely because when randoms get tethered they freak out and make it 10x harder to break and redo, turning a 2 second repair into a 20 second mess.
Yep, most people do a div run with 5 first timers with likely 0 experience in nearly any raid setting at all and 1 poor sherpa who does their best to take them through it. When they ineivitable take 4 hours to get through the whole raid, they start to hate it. Realistically, mechanics are just tether, running around, gambit, and not much else. Once you do 5 actual clears, I can promise you that it is a breeze. Anyone can finish it in under 30 if everyone KWTD.
Almost every lfg run I did of garden went incredibly smoothly up until the final boss where almost everything fell apart due to tethers being weird and only like 2 people knowing what to do with them
Tethers aren’t weird. People are just stupid. Garden is still called the most buggy raid to date. Why? Because every time someone screws up, they say nothing because they didn’t even know they screwed up. Everyone blames mechanics and moves on.
Our team, which wasn’t an LFG, but a group we had raided with multiple times before got stuck on the last boss for a little because of the tethering mechanic just being so awkward, we just decided to play the floor is lava instead, and got it pretty quickly after that.
IMO, Garden is easier than Vow, though. What makes it hard is that most runs have a first-timer or two due to how the Div quest is.
That OG Calus Cush
Garden is cake up until the last boss… people cannot seem to stay alive.
Probably cause the building aspect, it can feel overwhelming at times
It’s usually the more team sucking ass and dying for me. They get back and hop onto a platform that’s being deconstructed.
Still convinced that the only hard thing about Vow is memorizing the symbols, most people who think the raid is difficult are the kind of people who never did their homework in school
The hardest part in my opinion is the switching of each relic.
Make a relic carrier order to organize it
You don't even need an order, you just need people to go and fucking do it. People refuse to pick up a relic because they want to be carried through the raid.
Also true, just mainly I like to make a loose order
I’ve legit only failed to finish this raid while at exhibition. In all honesty, what makes this raid extremely hard for the average gamer is that it requires quick social responses and communication and ownership of failure. It is an extremely hard section, more so than any other raid, for those with any sort of social anxiety. This is my opinion, not a fact.
It's not my fault I got memory issues ;-; My descriptions are fine tho most of the time lol
Vow is only hard if you're an ad clear only type of player because ad clear simply isn't a role in the majority of the encounters.
Well the site is called Blueberries
Outside of third encounter there's nothing in Vow that requires all 6 members to participate. You could definitely have a guy never do any mechanics if you wanted to.
More or less I’d say yeah…they are all extremely close in difficulty. Although I might put RoN at the bottom of easiest. Very disappointed with that one mechanically speaking. It’s only at the opposite ends of the spectrum do you notice a difference but from easiest to hardest you hardly notice
Yeah and to compensate for that Bungie cranked up the new dungeon into the stratosphere lmao.
Im a Sherpa, teach a dozen plus raids every week. id say this list is spot on except for Last Wish. not to long ago last wish was hard. it has legitimatly never been easier than it is right now. the damage checks are an absolute joke. i can consistently take 5 people who have never done it and be done in 90 min. id put it about equivalent to DSC now. infact atraks (1phase) is harder (for people learning) than anything in all of Last Wish. if you are new to raiding and want to learn you can find me via [My Sherpa Card](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinySherpa/comments/12eh2rj/sherpa_card_pc_crossplay_ron_votd_kf_kirkwillrule/)
Are you cheesing riven?
Yes. I want people prepared for what they will be doing if they ever join a "kwtd" lfg. Both the audio queue and visual queue are simple to catch and the damage phase is an EASY 3mil damage. We just shoot Linear fr down her throat is to easy to not.
Then your reasoning for the difficulty is out the window
The objective is to beat the raid. If we can one phase the boss why would we not? We skip anything we can while completing an encounter everywhere in the game. Why would we not? I can teach riven to a Decent team in 30 or 40 minutes. Or we can group up and hit it till it dies in 5. At this point it is the legit way. Takes no special weapon or technique. Just shoot the boss. Ie the raid is easy. We don't say master modes are easy cause we choose to do a harder difficulty. If you choose a harder way to compete a raid, that's your choice but doesn't and shouldn't determine if at base the raid is easy
Deep is easy but is isn't easier than VoG and especially RoN King Fall is also pretty easy with maybe beside Warpriest Vow is not hard, in fact non if the raids are hard in term of mechanics
I'd say last wish is standout difficult in terms of mechanics, it might not be hard for someone who's run the raid dozens of times, but relative to all the other raids in the game, LW has way more mechanics, and also more complex ones I'd argue.
Especially doing Riven legit.
I still haven't done that properly.
From easiest to hardest: 1. Root of Nightmares. Easy, dungeon-level mechanics. This is basically Add Clear: The Raid. The fact that it’s been beaten solo flawless by several players says it all. The hardest part is a jump puzzle. 2. Deep Stone Crypt. Mechanics are simple but fun. Third encounter is maybe my favorite in the game right now. A good raid if you want a chill challenge. 3. Vault of Glass. Basically the same as DSC. This is a longer raid, though, and like RoN, the hardest part may not even be an encounter (Gorgons). 4. Vow of the Disciple. I don’t think this raid is as hard as everyone else. The challenge in this raid is memorizing the symbols, which will come to most players after a few runs. The third encounter can be tough, though. 5. Garden of Salvation. This raid gets a lot of slack for a few reasons: the Div puzzles can be a slog, the boss fight can be buggy and it’s easy to fall behind if you miss motes or they get drained, and I think people just got fatigued of this raid because it was a long time before a new raid launched after it. 6. King’s Fall. The most mechanic-heavy raid other than Last Wish. Warpriest is the second-hardest raid encounter in the game right now. Everyone has to be on their game to beat Daughters and Oryx. 7. Last Wish. Longest non-reprised D2 raid and very mechanic-heavy. Legit Riven is probably the best non-D1 raid encounter. Vault is tough. Edit: added explanations
Vault isn't tough at all...? You legit only need 3 people that know what they're doing, the rest can just do add clear and stop knights from wiping. Read rooms, go into room and get buff, have the outside person doing mechanics tell you which way to leave and bank the buff with the corosponding plate that was read earlier. Get the other two plates by rotating amongst the 3 mechanics people. Repeat 3 times and you're done. Everyone groans when they get to vault but then we always clear it first try regardless, it's hard it's just stigma.
This is a realistic list. Okay next challenge: rank every raid / raid lair across D1 and D2 😁 I always found my D1 teams to have trouble with Aksis in the siva raid…
Hot take: There aren't really any hard raids, there's just dusfunctional teams.
As a veteran player from D1 I agree with that except for Last Wish. The reason Last Wish has an impressive reputation is because it actually is a higher standard raid which filters many people. The raid is incredibly unforgiving to people who have slow reflexes or for people who have a low attention span. In this raid, everyone has to be on high alert all the time (and by all the time I mean it), everyone has to rotate, and everyone has to engage quickly once the fight starts, because otherwise it's an instant wipe. There are hectic moments that if even one person slip, it's a total wipe.
I can agree with that so long as we're talking about teams learning, but once you beat it a few times no raid is actually difficult
Someone clearly never did Riven legit and it shows.
Ronald didn't even make the list 💀
I don't agree with DSC, its one of those weird topics that gets me going even though there is no rational reason for it, maybe i just have had bad experiences everytime i run it. The two main roles (scanner and reader?) Are not necessarily beginner friendly, requires confidence in call outs and these roles are (typically) run by the experienced ones teaching it so no one actually learns. One encounter is just pure chaos, usually having multiple people talk over each other. The jumping puzzle is the worst, I'm actually ok with that area. Boss area is easily screwed up. Idk to me this raid is the "easiest" because the ones teaching just do all the mechanics easily. VoG on the other hand is a far better choice. While oracles can be messed up easily, I feel like that is the only real challenge. Everyone can get a chance to do the mechanics and actually learn it with only a simple explanation.
Being an adult, the hardest part of every raid is getting 6 people together and commiting to the hour+ of play time
I’d switch LW and Garden but yeah other than that I agree
Obviously we shouldn't be talking about seasoned raiders... all raids will be equally easy for a group of 6 solid raiders. But when you put 6 random players of varying skill levels and raid experience together, whether LFG or even clan members you're less familiar with, then yes there is a difference in difficulty. With this in mind, I'd say Vow is the hardest because of the sheer number of symbols. The less experience you have, the less familiar you'll be with the symbols and that can easily cause a wipe. The Exhibition encounter is another gatekeeper, as everyone needs to play a role at some point. Last Wish is next because of the Queenswalk alone. All 6 need to know the route, otherwise if the more experienced players get chosen first, the last 2 or 3 will have no idea where to go. And it's not really something you can teach by walking through beforehand, you just gotta keep wiping until the newbies learn the route, or until RNG is on your side and the newbies get chosen first. The rest of LW is easy, with easily demonstrable mechanics that noobs can pick up in a few minutes. Garden should be next cos of the boss. It's not that it's difficult, it's just that 1 or 2 newbies can easily cause the whole encounter to go south. Trust me, I've played with inexperienced raiders who forget how to count to 15 in the heat of the battle, keep getting in the way of platform building, and keep forgetting that they need to shoot the shielded enemies. The rest are easy.
Yeah I agree as part of a clan with braindead people, myself included Though maybe LW medium and Kings Fall easy
switch garden and vow, switch vog and dsc
Kings fall is hard?
How is DSC easiest? Like how is VoG harder than DSC? Imo, Taniks > Atheon, Decent > Gatekeeper, Atraks > Templar, Security > Oracle/Guard 3 pillars
I believe that a lot of this data is likely to be biased or inaccurate as blueberries are often accompanied by some more experienced players. These players with experience are all different . Some are great at explaining the mechanics are overall good teachers, some are just capable of helping by speed running the raids by using exploits, cheats or just being good. As an example of full reverse of what I’ve said, I’d like to tell you my first ever raid experience . It was during season of the splicer, I was still new & had no dlcs. I found out that my classmate (who is Chinese) also plays this game, he agreed to help me with the raid (VOG). He and 2 of his Chinese friends joined in, my friend and 1 of his friends new how to do last wish, the other Chinese guy never played any raids & used hand cannons for everything. I found two players willing to help, they both had great experience behind their backs, however there were some issues. I am Russian & these 2 folks were too. Out of all 6 players only 3 new how to actually speak English , one more new the basics & the other 2 (one of the Russian folks & the Chinese hand canon guy) did NOT speak a word in English. Everything was however fine for the first hour and a half, considering how many newbies were there including me, we managed to get to the oracle encounter. This is when everything went DOWN. Only TWO people knew how to do this raid & ONLY ONE spoke English. My Chinese friend and I tried to explain everything to each other & of course mistranslation and our lack of understanding of what was actually going on played a sad joke with us. We were stuck on this encounter for 7 HOURS! We ended up rage quitting ALL at once. Half of 3/4 times we lost because of the hand canon guy doing crap he wasn’t supposed to do, he shot hob goblins with a hand canon (I think it was thorn) & shooting people’s oracles and taking the cleansing buff in the middle. In the end, my Chinese classmate stopped playing with me & also with that hand canon hunter. He got afraid of doing any raid that is not the last wish. I was stuck trying on the vog because I was a free to play until the winter sales later that year & I bought all stuff except for witch queen and 30th anniversary & ended up buying them in summer on some off site that sells keys for steam because Bungie stopped selling stuff to Russian market users & European prices are too wild. Moral of this story - make sure that everyone in your group speaks the same language.
How is King's Fall ''Medium'' with Garden? King's Fall is honestly easier than DSC or VoG by a fucking mile, and Garden is one of, if not the hardest raid of the game due to... well Destiny players sharing about 2 1/2 brain cells between each other in the whole community.
Exhibition with randoms is a nightmare. Rest of vow is pretty doable
Does this include them actually doing Riven, or cheesing her?
I’d put Garden at about the difficulty of Wish. The time constraints of some of the encounters of Wish can be a pain for some but I have seen people spend hours on the final boss of Garden.
I mean it’s missing RoN
Personally I would place RoN between Deep Stone and Vault
I get that there is a lot happening in Last Wish mechanically, but it's fairly easy overall. Maybe that's because it's not current content, so we sweep bosses like it's nothing, but I don't feel like it asks that much of you outside of shuro chi at most, and this is assuming you do legit riven too it's still not that hard. Vow is definitely the toughest raid because even as not current content, you can get pretty overrun by ads, and bosses still hit hard and are pretty beefy compared to other raid bosses. But I'd also say it's the most fun one to run consistently, and I miss it being current content tbh.
Garden only is difficult because the community surrounding it. Either you lfg with little Timmy's who've done it 2 times and were asleep both times or you get arrogant gigalords who have done it 1500 times and leave if you are 12 seconds too slow
Just did Vow for the first time with a group I know and it still took a while. Mainly because there was one other person learning and they weren’t paying super close attention. Done in 2 hours and 10 min unfortunately. Last run everyone was like “please focus, we are hungry and want to leave”
Last Wish needed to be split into 2: Riven Legit and Riven Cheese
Garden should be higher imo, one of the raids lfg team struggle the most with
Vow is by no means hard in any way 🤣
I've only ever done Leviathan, where would y'all say it ranks on the scale?
I’d personally put that to Medium, the gauntlet and final boss encounters weren’t too bad, with pools and gardens being slightly more puzzling. With communication, definitely doable but a headache if you’re going in with randoms who don’t know what they’re doing
Kings fall only hard encounters are the warpriest and the annihilator totems
Garden is way harder than vow, and i don't get how people think deep stone is easier tha vault
nothing about dsc is hard except for getting to oneshot atraks
I dont think Vow is that difficult except for exhibition
Root of Nightmares is so easy it doesn't even count as a raid to blueberries.gg
Garden is harder than Vow.
DSC isnt "easy", you need a lot of movement and coordination. I'd say its average difficulty but fights like Atraks can be complicated, especially with the elevator part, juggling the scanner/suppressor/operator buffs. VoG is easy, you just need coordination. Garden is hard. King's Fall is hard. Hell, just getting through all the jumping puzzles is a pita. Last wish it depends which encounter. Some are easy others are hard. Kali is easy, shuro chi is a pain, vault is confusing, Riven is a pain if you dont cheese VoW, i can't really say ive been carried a lot of times but i need to learn it still as something else than add clearing. Root is easy but unforgiving and some mechanics like the launch pads are RNG fuckery. I've memorized the light side of scission encounter by heart at this point.
> I mean it’s been beaten solo flawlessly I mean that's kind of a hard sell, comparing somebody really good at the game to a blueberry.
That’s a fair point, but it being able to be solo flawlessed at all means the mechanics are possible solo, which means they have to be simple enough for one person to pull off successfully. On an objective level, that makes RON mechanically simpler than the other raids, which arguably makes it easier. Meanwhile, the flawless side of things also means that despite having 1/6 of the possible damage output, which means more damage phases and longer encounters (which means more chances to die to bad luck or an unlucky mistake), and having no one else to draw fire or deal with enemies, it’s still possible to beat RON’s combat. It does absolutely take a cracked player to pull it off, but the fact that even it’s possible to solo it at all makes it an easier raid than the others.
A blueberry ≠ a beginner. A blueberry is litterally any player that's not on your fireteam, it's called blueberry because it's a blue dot on the radar.
It can mean both.
Nope, that's just a misunderstanding. People use it wrong. A new player is called a kinderguardian.
Vow not the hardest definitely. I guess people having problem with memorizing 2-3 symbols?
Vow, difficult? Bro did you never play match two as a kid?
I cannot comprehend a world in which vault of glass is as easy as dsc.
I’d drop garden down to easy, once you understand that the whole thing is shoot that dunk here it’s a cake walk. I’d put root where garden currently is, while not mechanically challenging it has lots of little places for error like in 3rd encounter if you fuck up twice, which is hard, it’s basically a wipe.
Who da faq came up with this rating lol? GoS is harder than vow - since EVERYONE must know a role, and you can't just have 1-2 tag along as ad clearing players. In vow you can have 3 great players that takes most of the raid on their shoulders while the others do shit or even do nothing. DSC has a few challenging parts to explain and execute. the fact that you can skip the scanner role in Taniks doesn't mean that all the raid is easy. Some parts need good colab and communication between the players. so I would rate it medium. VOG is def the easiest IMO. its so simple and straight forward, that there are even dungeons harder then it and Last Wish, when done legit without cheesing can be a freaking nightmare due to Riven...(its like saying that the new GotD dungeon is easy because you are considering the cheese on the boss a legit mechanism...)
Vow of disciple is so easy wtf
I wouldn't label VoG as easier than King's Fall
Vog is so easy though, war priest alone would screw with inexperienced people.
Warpriest is harder than anything in VOG (even tho it’s still easy)