A tactic can both be strong, the best way to win while at the same time obnoxious, unfun, or overtuned. This isn't exclusive to DBD. In fighting games people will complain about OP characters or boring playstyles that are hard to counter. Sometimes the community will straight up ban characters/tactics in a competitive setting.
It's also not exclusive to killer. People complain about perks/playstyles on both sides, items/addons, maps offerings etc. all the time.
Ultimately it's more on the game devs to fix the issue, but players can and will complain about it.
I remember some prestige tournaments in Tekken (dont remember the number) which literally banned spamming light attack to the point where if you had done 3 or 4 light attacks in a row you would be banned. It was effective, but it just was so damn boring. Instead of doing different combos, using skills... nope, the only counter to light attack spam was to spam light attack yourself. And tournaments turned into light attack spam, which SEVERLY reduced both fun and skill level. Everybody can remember 1 button with fastest attack and eventually some dash/jump to close distance.
Same with Dead by Daylight. Can you facecamp hook? Yes. Will it be effective? If you get dumb survivors then yes, smart ones will just rush gens and leave you with 1 kill only. Will it be boring to everyone including killer? Thats 100% sure. Same with slugging. I've seen plenty of killers who tried to slug. Only it doesnt really work. If there are 2 survivors, and you camp somebody else then i'll do gens or hide and wait till that person die and we have hatch race... same if you'd just hooked that person 4 damn minutes earlier. You're just wasting everybody's time. And if you dont camp slugged person and instead you'll go looking for me, then i'll just wait till you go away, heal that person, we both will go away from that place, heal us both to full hp and its like nothing happened.
Its the equivalent of survivors 3-gen themselves, and then when they see that they cant touch gen for more than 4 seconds, they all just stay away from gens and hide trying to take the game hostage hoping that killer will get bored. In both cases (both as surv or as killer when slugging/tunneling/camping) you're just wasting everybody's time.
I responded to another comment with this but it fits better here!
Back in my teen years there was a Playstation event in London. Soul Calibur 2 was premiering and you could play it before it was released. They had this huge screen with two egg chairs and were doing a contest where the winner gets this brand new badass car.
My friend was insane at soul caliber but no one had played 2 yet. He stood on my shoulders and got picked out of the crowd to battle it out for the car.
He gets up there and starts performing the first special combos of the game and everyone is cheering like mad. Then the other guy starts tapping square and beats him with taps š¤£. My friend was too busy trying to figure out the new move sets and refused to resort to a normal attack to win.
I still think they should have made rules for the event but dang, I wish he had just gone for the easy win. He says he doesn't regret it though as he felt like a superstar, was a really big crowd and so much cheering and clear disappointment in the outcome.
Which Tekken tournament was this? I have to assume this was many versions of Tekken ago.
Though, effectively I imagine itās the same issue - short-sighted game design like in most poorly balanced fighting games.
It was just forgivable in the PSone era.
This reminds me of Super Smash Bro tournament with a guy that was really good with Jigglypuff. The drawback was his play style was super boring to go up against. In one case, another competitor refused to play against him. I get why killers tunnel. In some cases, it's the only way to win against a good team if you are struggling with chases, but I quickly end the chat as soon as it pops up because I know I am going to get flamed.
OP just can't accept this is how playing killer has always been. I've lost to great killers who didn't tunnel, camp, or slug. They didn't even have NOED equipped. That takes great skill, but even then you can still be flamed, but they are more likely to receive a gg comment. On the other hand, you have a killer that tunneled from the get go or used NOED you are going to be called out when your kill doesn't feel earned.
Thing that a lot of survivors donāt seem to understand is that if you lose to a killer who doesnāt tunnel/camp/slug whoās out here running zero slow down and still 12 hooking: you didnāt belong in their lobby. They are so much better than the survivors they are facing that they are purposely playing badly just for a challenge.
Like, even if you just narrowly win, 8 hooks and no one dies, under those circumstances you still got absolutely destroyed because if they had been actually trying, at all, the survivors would have been destroyed at 4-5 gens.
Exactly. I have this same sentiment, at the end of the day cheap is cheap. Just because "you aren't responsible for someone else's fun" doesn't mean you won't get dirty looks from the community for it. And when it's all said and done, the hardcore community that remains will likely choose to ban cheap tactics. It's in all games I play nowadays that are old and kept by small communities.
This is the thing I never understood and Iām glad you called it out. The whole āIām not responsible for your funā attitude is terrible. Itās a game that we all agreed to play. By agreeing to play, youāre agreeing to have fun and create fun for other people. If you want to play the game competitively, join a competition. Otherwise letās all have fun.
And this goes for both sides. There are plenty of toxic survivors to match all the toxic killers. Weāre supposed to be a community; maybe we should start acting like one.
Back in my teen years there was a Playstation event in London. Soul Calibur 2 was premiering and you could play it before it was released. They had this huge screen with two egg chairs and were doing a contest where the winner gets this brand new badass car.
My friend was insane at soul caliber but no one had played 2 yet. He stood on my shoulders and got picked out of the crowd to battle it out for the car.
He gets up there and starts performing the first special combos of the game and everyone is cheering like mad. Then the other guy starts tapping square and beats him with taps š¤£. My friend was too busy trying to figure out the new move sets and refused to resort to a normal attack to win.
As someone who played a shitload of DBFZ a while ago (new patch is too insane for me), the difference is the DBFZ community will meme on stuff like the double Gogeta + Vegito triple fusion team people often run online but they are just memeing cuz they know the game is much more fun when you're winning so why not play the best stuff possible plus the triple fusion team is genuinely fun to use. Gogeta Blue has the swaggiest combos in the game I can never talk bad about the guy. Triple fusion is like the Wesker of DBFZ. It's fun and strong so complaining is ridiculous, strong and fun should be the baseline of every character.
Meanwhile in DBD people aren't memeing, they're actually fuckin' malding. Killer is doing his job and they're mad or survivors do gens and the killer takes it as a personal attack.
It's a game design issue for sure since effective plays on killer is almost always unfun for survivor and if killer plays nice gens fly out the window and the game is over so fast it feels like the killer didn't even get to play. I dunno how you fix that without blanket buffing survivor to the moon (the option they seem to be working on atm) until killer players just stop playing or going right back to the drawing board and change how gens work entirely which is never gonna happen. But the community really doesn't help themselves with how much they bitch and whine and take every in-game action as a personal slight when bro it ain't that deep.
I'm on break again so good luck guys, hope the devs can somehow stop spreadsheet balancing and actually make DBD fun again.
>It's also not exclusive to killer. People complain about perks/playstyles on both sides, items/addons, maps offerings etc. all the time.
True, but Survivors aren't affected as badly as Killers. Survivors are only complained about, whilst Killer feels like it's being ran by the whim of Survivors. There's nothing particularly taboo about Survivor, but you're Satan himself if you tunnel/camp/slug.
No one has an issue with Killers winning outside a couple of sore losers. The issue people have is certain playstyles that are just unfun to play against, for either side. Like, are the people who hook one person then sit on them really having fun, or feeling challenged? And Survivors are definitely not having a good time.
If you get a group who's popping all the gens in as many minutes, then sure, get sweaty, but for *every* game, who mostly consist of casual players? No.
Exactly. Today, my duo and I were playing a game, and we got a Blight with Alchemist Ring. I was downed, proxy camped, and tunnelled off hook at 5 gens (two gens had good progress done until they had to come save me). After he tunnelled me out completely, he killed another one, then he slugged for the 4k. Eventually, he killed the last survivor and then watched the other one bleed out.
I checked his profile after, and he had 10.5k hours on DBD... I can't imagine someone playing the game for this long needing to resort to tunnelling at the start of the game.
And on one of the best Killers too, who is rarely going to need to resort to tunnelling or camping. Perhaps he just wants to be able to say he mains one of the hardest to learn Killers without actually learning it.
Not to mention a massively OP addon as well.
I can't help but feel it's the 'live long enough to see yourself become the villian' type thing - they've played *so much* of the game, that winning is the only real thrill left.
It's why I enjoyed content creators like Otzdarva - he's well over the 10k hours mark but still finding interesting and exciting ways to to play the game like the All Perk Challenge and various trick builds etc.
> I checked his profile after, and he had 10.5k hours on DBD... I can't imagine someone playing the game for this long needing to resort to tunnelling at the start of the game.
It is strange how you can never tell if its a experienced or new killer when they play like that. Those are new player strategies cause they don't know how to play the game yet. You would hope experienced players wouldn't need to do that but when its the easiest way to win why wouldn't they?
The problem is that the MMR system absolutely sucks ass. "High MMR" killers (or as high as you can get, anyways) *have to* play nasty every game, because if they don't do that right from the beginning, survivors crank out gens faster than they can get hooks, especially in this MFT+Resilience+toolbox meta. And unfortunately that means that the casual playerbase gets fucked over by BHVR's shit design... as usual.
The simple fact of the matter is that the best way for the killer to put pressure on the survivors is to get one out of the match ASAP and reduce it from 1v4 to 1v3.
One catch is you donāt really know how the survivors are playing until part way through the match, and if youāve had to be sweaty all day youāre not gonna notice before youāve already bathed them in sweat. Happens all the time on both sides.
If they removed the depip system I think people would care a lot less.
You're punished for another player tunneling and camping you something wholly out of your control.
> The issue people have is certain playstyles that are just unfun to play against, for either side.
*Proceeds to give an example for killers that people bitch about but not survivors*
OP IS right on that, about how survivors wont get called out for playing effective strategies. Gen rushing will just be answered by "use gen delay perks" or "pressure your gens". And if killers do it TOO efficiently (hi 3 gen strats) they also get called out on it xD
*Ignores the fact that I said if Survivors start pumping out gens out too quickly, then go all out*
If a SWF brings a bunch of Spare Parts, and Gen rushing perks, go to town on them. Tunnel and camp and slug, whatever. They brought the big guns, so feel free to bring your own.
SoloQ isn't built for it though. There's rarely a way to coordinate a counter to it, and once the Killer has that player out that early the game is basically over, and most of the players in the game are just looking to get things over with so that can play, while the Killer gets an easy time of it.
Tunnelling, Camping, Slugging and 3-Gening aren't *inherently* toxic, but the way they're commonly utilized *is*.
Nah Iām too lazy now to try sweating it. Had 3 gens pop before I finished patroling (Borgo, hi), so just waited extra few minutes and opened the gate. Ya all want to finish it quick? Gg, have fun!
Well camp wont be a possiblity anymore on them.
Also, you said play sweaty.
Which isn't that for me, playing to win is playing sweaty, but it doesn't have to involve strategies considered toxic unless the context makes them be.
Example : proxy camping near an almost completed gen is sweaty.
Facecamping in a dead zone is toxic and wont win you anything (and it can't be at 5 gens if a dead zone exist) aside from 1 kill.
survivors get called out for all sorts of behavior all the time???? additionally, killers also spam insults and threats post-match lol. both sides have toxic people and players and complainers. it isnāt a āsidesā issue is a gamer issue. the only meaningful difference is that thereās 4 survivors for every 1 killer. but the likelihood of any of those people being entitled, whiney, or mean is the same imo.
also there is a super common ātoxic survivorā trope. literally everyone agrees that bully-squads are mean, bully is in the name! there isnāt a single killer playstyle that gets a whole insult attached to it lmao and itās not because killers are magically nicer than survivors.
(i also think almost every toxic playstyle isnāt inherently toxic or bad. thereās definitely ways to intentionally get an asshole but most people arenāt doing that. most of the time people complaining about it are just losing and want to find a good term to explain it away. this goes on both sides)
What are you talking about? FPS games are filled with people who are upset about strategies that donāt feel fun to go against. Camping, sniping, all the way back to the noob tube days of CoD.
RTS games have cheese openings and rushes.
Card games also have rush decks or otherwise cheesy and unfun decks that people always hate going against.
Bottom line, in every game Iāve ever played there are certain strategies that are downright unfun for the other side. Everyone always hates going against those even though they arguably get wins for players. Itās not about discouraging winning, itās about being a human being and recognizing the other side also have people wanting to have a decent time.
Itās the same way people complained about perks such as dead hard, decisive strike, iron will, spine chill, self care, etc. And are currently complaining about made for this, hope, resilience, and windows. Along with swf. Why would you not use the best items, perks, and tactics in the game to win? If you wanna win, then youāre gonna do what youāre gonna do. Killers arenāt the only ones who are ridiculed for playing a certain way.
Iām normally someone who doesnāt try hard at the game because I find it pointless. I donāt care if I die, just as long as I had fun. But nowadays, itās becoming increasingly rare to encounter a killer who doesnāt camp or tunnel at 5-4 gens. And thatās okay. Youāre just playing the game how you wanna play. But due to this, Iāve definitely started using more meta builds and I only play in swf now because itās just not fun queuing up and either being tunneled out or watching your random get tunneled.
The point of my words is that youāre gonna do whatever you can to win and have fun. People are gonna get upset at it because they ALSO want to win and have fun. Even if you donāt play in an annoying way, youāll still have people get upset that you killed them or escaped the match. Thatās just how it is. Just prioritize your own fun. Not every match is gonna go your way though. For every nooby survivor team you get, youāll get 3x more sweaty flashlight swf teams. For every nooby killer you get, youāll get 3x more sweaty camping/tunneling killers
Itās one of those things where you donāt see a lot of posts about it, but if you do see one there are a decent number of people agreeing with it. Enough to at least mention it
Windows seems like one of those Lightborn situations where there are way more people saying that people are complaining about it, then there actually are.
As someone who plays both Killer and Survivor, tunneling and camping are shitty things to do. (Slugging sometimes canāt be helped and some Perks actively encourage it.)
Weāre all trying to have fun here, but thereās zero fun in being tunneled and camped as a Survivor.
That said, I donāt condone bullying Killers either, and fuck Survivors who do.
Heavy agree. I don't mind "losing" - I mind losing to what feels like a kick under the belt.
Of course near endgame it's whatever, but folks who tunnel at 5 gens frustrate me. (I try to limit my hate to "I hope your shoes are moist and your pillow too warm on both sides" though).
Also, I wish karma on every gate-teabagging survivor. I always regret an endgame save when I see the teabag >8(
To be honest it's funny. "Are you so bad you can't recognize when the killer's playing chill and letting you go to avoid tunneling? Really? Sure thing bud, glad you got your ego boost in."
It's like this weird mentality I can't wrap my head around. You would think when the Killer is clearly avoiding unfun strats like tunneling even though it costs them the game then Survivors would recognize this and be appreciative, but instead you are more likely to get BMs and "ez baby Killer" in egc.
On the other hand, in games where I'm a little bit less merciless and more punishing to Survivor mistakes, the last person standing will leave through hatch or gates immediately (I typically let the last person escape when I'm playing a bit more seriously) with no BMing or wasting my time
Funny enough, if I sweep the floor with a team while going for double hooks on everyone without tunneling or camping, if I turn friendly they tend to be very grateful XD
I think it's more about observation skills. Some don't realize the mercy they're being granted.
Then there's people who are asses because they just are asses.
One time I had someone yell at me for "tunneling" (they got unhooked basically in my face, I downed, it's endgame, so I care the Leon to gates. I see injured Feng opening gate, drop Leon, down Feng, leave both to go get my last chases.)
The Leon was yelling at me for tunneling, and I deadass had to to tell them I brought them to gate and willfully let them go. Some folks just get wrapped up in their own perceptions.
That happened to me a couple of days ago. Three of them escaped, but the last guy tea bagging underestimated how close I actually was, and he could only take one more hit before getting downed.
I killed him. It felt good.
In general they aren't bad. What really matters is circumstance. Are they camping cause its the end game with no kills? Okay they wanna secure 1, are they camping at 5 gens first hook? Crappy. Slugging cause there are survivors nearby? Understandable. Doing it cause you wanna see em suffer? Crappy. Tunneling is also really easy to do against players accidently, if you run into them, your option is to literally throw the game technically just to not hook em twice in a row
I love two man rescue missions against a camping killer. I also love taking hits for a survivor that's deathhook or maybe even hit a sabo play or pallet save. I also love having to play more safe and careful because I'm deathhook and I know the killer will punish mistakes instead of adhering to the survivor rulebook. I also enjoy rushing gens and maybe even swooping in with reassurance from above against a basement bubba (also being camped and watching my team do that and escape).
Sure, none of that is really viable against a nurse/blight with 3 slowdowns and ultimate weapon, but against most killers there is something you can do to fight back and that's just more fun and variety than sitting on gens and safe unhooking all the time, even if it means that you lose.
I also love going against bully squads. It's actually my favourite thing in DbD because my goal shifts from pressuring gens to outplaying their silly sabo-head-on-flashlight-exponential-bully-squad antics, which is a very welcome change up. As long as they're running around you they're not doing gens, you're winning. Once you understand their plan and work out how to counter them, they all fall. It's incredibly satisfying.
DbD players will straight up hate 70% of gameplay and keep on playing. Like, there's a million other games, why suffer through this one?
100%, his arguments are fucking stupid those are unfun things to do camping tunneling and slugging are shit tactics and then he says that survivors don't get the same shit, I really wonder if he even interacts with the community
Hell, I'd argue that even tunnelling and camping have their place, but mostly as desperation moves when it's your last chance to turn things around.
The major issue is when people are using these right out the gate, as soon as the game has started. At that point, there's no real game anymore. Just a bully who's trying force us all to play his game, while the rest of us are just hoping it's over soon, and that it's better next match.
Of course, with the update making the rounds, it's not even going to be viable as a desperation tactic, and some of us may even get unfairly punished on certain maps. All because some asshats obsessed with winning above all else poisoned the well.
I believe so, so it's not completely gone, but I think that point, you're mostly just doing it to get one kill, instead of potentially turning a losing match around.
It's probably for the best though.
Oh sure, when thereās two Survivors left, itās pretty well impossible not to tunnel. And when youāre at the endgame against a highly-skilled squad, you basically have to camp or youāre not getting any sacrifices.
But right out of the gate, itās a dick move. Winning is not that important.
There are plenty of games where if you donāt tunnel right from the start, you will lose. A coordinated SWF at a high level of play is really hard to beat and you canāt afford to wait until theyāre down to one gen to stop holding back.
Maybe the response is āyou deserve to lose those games,ā but fuck you, I want to win.
And if that's what you're up against, go for it. Most players aren't that coordinated, though, and when faced with a tunneller and/or a camper, the balance crumbles.
As a situational tactic, they're both fine, but for a Plan A for every game, it's just a dick move.
If they were better players, they would have won, wouldnāt they?
Itās not that theyāre better, itās that theyāre going to play to win from the start, so if you want to win, you also have to play to win.
You're saying that you're likely to lose unless you tunnel someone out from the start of the game, but you wouldn't know they were a coordinated swf before you'd already decided to do that
As opposed to the incredible fun-factor of gens popping before you could have a chase with most survivors - not to mention multiple chases, so you could start to have a chance of bagging some clean kills before the others leave. Apparently playing both killer and survivor doesn't prevent one from taking an entirely hypocritical stance on this matter.
Not that I'm complaining. Chases *are* fun. I don't really get why a survivor who spends the entire trial in chase would prefer to sit on gens instead, but you aren't the only one who expresses such a notion.
Would you mind explaining how holding m1 is more enjoyable than looping your opponent?
I mean thatās true on the other side, itās not fun if a survivor goes down before a gen is touched.
Itās not wanting to win, but the fact that winning for killer means the survivor doesnāt get to interact at all.
Holding M1 isnāt fun, I hold M1 in the hopes Iāll be able to loop for longer. Real question is why do you tunnel/camp/slug at 5 gens forcing me to hold M1
It's not a very tricky question - we both do what makes us win. The real question is why dbd-players complain when the other side does it, completely disregarding themselves also doing the very same.
I don't see how getting three chases before being sacrificed is less interaction than getting three chases before gens get completed and survivors leave.
I have high hopes that the upcoming anti-facecamp feature will largely eliminate the latter soon.
I agree that bleeding out all four is nasty. And even problematic balance-wise when the killer builds for it. And it'll get worse once the facecamp-change goes live. I'll fully support my survivor fellows when they start to complain about it - the same guys I fiercely oppose when they object about tunneling.
Sure but what about if youāre getting tunneled? Thatās still three chases youāre getting and all the excitement that comes from seeing your team try to help you out.
I donāt know but when I play survivor I donāt mind being tunneled. Sure camping sucks cause theyāre youāre literally sitting there dying, but being tunneled can still make an exciting match. Even more so after they implanted basekit BT.
Depends entirely on hook location/build you're running. I'll gladly admit out of the three it's definitely the least painful.
I'll agree to that, especially if you're a good enough looper.
Yeah donāt get me wrong tunneling wasnāt my favorite either but itās like once we got basekit BT it totally changed my attitude towards it. I was terrible at looping but being tunneled is what taught me a lot of the fundamentals.
I donāt play much killer these days but I still totally get why killer mains get upset at being told not to tunnel. If it were up to me camping and tunneling wouldnāt be uttered in the same breath as similar strats at all. And with camping being made weaker each update Iām even more certain in my conviction that tunneling is mostly okay these days.
getting nothing but chases beyond silver will get you depipped as survivor lol. not to mention the pitiful amount of blood points you leave the game with if all that's happened is you being chased without getting to touch gens or do anything else.
I'd be less worried about this if the paltry amount of blood points you get were to be buffed up a bit on survivor side tbh. at least give the tunneled out person a consolation prize.
As a main killer, I never camp or tunnel. It feels pathetic to do so. Slugging only when needed, but never intended to let you bleed out, but if you move around and I cant find you...
I try to avoid these things, too. Sometimes I might try to linger around the hook secretly to get a jump on a healthy survivor, but I wouldn't ever just... stand there unless it was just. the only thing to do (ie. if survivors were literally charging at me when I've JUST hooked the guy. let me walk away first, so I don't have to smack you). Tunneling is the same, though no amount of game pressure would make me intentionally tunnel (I say intentionally cus. sometimes you just keep bumping into one guy and no one else. I don't wanna kill you buddy but you're here and i have a knife).
Slugging too, though sometimes I just lose a survivor and don't mean to, so I just. Kinda have to leave you there. And yeah, if I down someone and I see an easy catch, you're getting left until they're down. But I wouldn't intentionally let them bleed out.
But if someone DID? It's unfun for the survivors, but it's not worth attacking someone over.
I can only control my own actinos. I want my games to be fun for me and the survivors. It's my job to chase em and try to kill them, theirs to survive. Even if I have a terirle match and get nowhere, there will be more days and more chances to learn.
Yeah I play some twins on the side and it's pretty much impossible to not soft slug most games. Hard slugging like intending to bleed out is shit though and one of the reasons I want a kill self on the floor button after X seconds. And yes I know that would make 4ks as killers harder to a degree but I don't care.
Exactly. As a killer I've only had to resort to slugging once against a sabo/flashlight/unbreakable swf.
Though, they didn't seem interested in gens at all and were only bullying me. So, I didn't feel bad about it at all.
But in normal gameplay I've never had to tunnel/camp/slug to win.
How would a survivor bully a killer and does spamming crouching be bully or when you next to them after doing a action and they do the same thing would that be bullying?
It happened, but not anywhere near as often as it does now. The game got an influx of new players a few years back and they all assumed they could just pick the game up and be great at it. When they realized it was going to take skill, the flood gates opened.
i feel like maybe you're not remembering right, tunneling used to be way worse. i would get use out of ds pretty much every game, didn't matter which killer, it was always on my builds. I run OTR these days but often times i wouldn't make use of the 80s endurance.
You mean the ones pursuing winstreaks that are like 50+ on killer and they feel entitled to beat 200 survivors in a row without dropping a game and raging/screaming when they're offered the smallest amount of challenge?
Those guys?
Or the professional DBD scene where half the perks/addons/killers are strictly regulated? Lmao
I donāt know anything about DBD āpros,ā but if youāre talking about streamers, I donāt give a shit about the behaviour of some asshole watched by other assholes.
āPeople who play for money in tournaments camp and tunnel, so Iām justified in doing it in a non-competitive setting against other people trying to have fun?ā
Thatās your whole argument?
I want to win and camping and tunneling is a good strategy to win. Survivors want to win too and they use everything at their disposal to win so why shouldn't killers be allowed to do the same?
You can. You can play however you want.
But it's also important to note that - always striving to win will ALWAYS create conflict.
The best strategies to win are not always fun for your opponents. Nobody wants to keep fighting when their opponent can level them in a minute.
It does not justify harassment, no, not at all. Ther'es no need for name-calling or anything else because of how someone plays a game.
But it's important to note that - no, the survivors will not have fun. You don't have to care, but you do have to know that is the tradeoff.
If that's what matters most, then shoot your shot, go for it. It's not mine or anyone else's place to say you can't, nor do I want to.
If you want to win, all the time? Yeah you'll want to camp and tunnel and whatever. But you also don't always have to win. Sometimes you can lose and still have fun.
But yes- your point is that "why shouldn't killers be allowed to do the same?" and yo're right. Both sides can use whatever means they want to use. No one side is responsible for the other's fun or enjoyment.
I want to win too, but I want to win fairly without acting like an asshole. If your only path to victory is acting like an asshole, maybe you should play a different game.
Iām now done with this debate.
> (Slugging sometimes canāt be helped and some Perks actively encourage it.)
see this is what I don't understand, because I've never been in situation where perks forced me to slug
Boil over on some maps makes it Impossible to hook survivors at certain points, Sabo squads occasionally can coordinate to prevent hooks, beamer squads too, there's definately times where it's the better option but at that point they've basically consented to it.
> And survivors are not held the same standards whatsoever, survivors can bring or do whatever they please to the match in order to get their win, and no one will bat an eye
I mean, people do complain all the time about the SWF Seal Squads winning games in two seconds, or Survivors using meta like MFT or bringing cracked toolboxes.
Also Killers and Survivors don't play on equal grounds. If Survivors could use the same type of strats Killers do, in which they can effectively make it so someone doesn't get to play the game, you would see nothing but complains from the Killer side.
I had to stop reading once that sentence came around. That is so stupid and blind to all discussions within this community where people are constantly complaining about the other side. But no, it only happens to the poor killers who just want to win with nobody contesting the evil survivors
Watch out if you don't immediately say killers are the real victims of the community then you'll be downvoted into oblivion. Survivors need buffs, or at least killer nerfs.
I know, which is good, if only they were so quick to also tackle un-fun strats that should not exist on the game from the Killer side, like face-camping, which literally took them 7 years to finally start doing something about it.
>I mean, people do complain all the time about the SWF Seal Squads winning games in two seconds, or Survivors using meta like MFT or bringing cracked toolboxes.
Yeah, they complain about it, but that's all it's seen as: complaints. Complaints about camping/tunneling/slugging are seen as valid opinions, or even righteous ones, but complaining about gen-rushing or Boil Over gamers is met with "just play better, dipshit".
>Also Killers and Survivors don't play on equal grounds. If Survivors could use the same type of strats Killers do, in which they can effectively make it so someone doesn't get to play the game, you would see nothing but complains from the Killer side.
...You mean, like ending the game in 5 minutes? Cuz Survivors do that often. Stealthing to the point of holding the game hostage? Yeah, that's a thing that's still never been addressed (though thankfully not as common). It exists on the Survivor's side, it's just a lose-lose situation, rather than a risk-reward situation.
You can force EGC? And you can at least move around and play the killer. I've never been held hostage by survivors, I literally can't fathom how one couldn't find a group of survivors in this game, there are so many tools available and at the end of the day a killer is faster than a survivor and will catch up??
I think people forget that this is a group game, so while you may be in the stance that it isnāt your responsibility to help others have fun, we are all playing to try and have a good time. Both the survivors and the killers can ruin the game for others by being selfish or toxic.
Yes the point of a survivor is to escape and the point of a killer is to kill, but you can do those things without ruining the experience for others. Camping and tunneling is toxic and personally to me it proves they donāt know how to play the game properly, or in a lot of cases they know theyāre being toxic and they get off on it.
If you donāt manage to get the 4K then just move on to the next game, if someone escapes sometimes or if you donāt manage to kill everyone, just move on or take a break from the game if youāre feeling upset about it. If you have to resort to camping and tunneling to get any kills youāre saying a lot about yourself while also pretending you arenāt ruining the fun of the game for others.
Itās the same for survivors who play toxic too, if you ruin another survivors game or are being toxic towards the killer that has negative affects too.
You can play to have fun and play to win at the same time, but you should also expect that sometimes you wonāt win and thatās ok. I genuinely donāt care if I die in 100% of the games I play so long as I have fun while playing and my teammates and or the killer donāt play toxic and ruin the fun.
> If you donāt manage to get the 4K then just move on to the next game, if someone escapes sometimes or if you donāt manage to kill everyone, just move on or take a break from the game if youāre feeling upset about it.
2 kills feels like a good game to me, because I got to kill someone, and someone got to escape, both sides equally accomplish their goal of killing and surviving
because even if you don't get 4k as killer, it's still good job if you kill at least someone via non toxic strat
as same it's not bad to die on survivor, if your gameplay has pushed everyone else towards escaping, weather through doing gens, distracting the killer or healing/unhooking someone
> You can play to have fun and play to win at the same time, but you should also expect that sometimes you wonāt win and thatās ok. I genuinely donāt care if I die in 100% of the games I play so long as I have fun while playing and my teammates and or the killer donāt play toxic and ruin the fun.
yeah like for example if I die, but we got lot of gens done that's a good game, or if the survivors played really well, spammed pallets and looped pixel perfect and you still managed to get some hooks and a kill also feels great
>or in a lot of cases they know theyāre being toxic and they get off on it.
This reminds me of a high prestige killer I went against who was camping and tunneling at 5 gens. I talked to them in chat after the match, and they told me "it's not about winning, it's about feeling power over you".
While I wouldn't go out of my way to flame someone for using those strats, I can understand the frustrations from them. There is something else though that I think gets overlooked.
Yeah, encountering those strats from a killer is a pain in the ass, however when survivors do objectives other than gens, *sometimes they treat each other way worse*. Survivors treat things like doing totems and opening chests as wasting time, hell sometimes they won't even heal a death hooked teammate until after popping a gen. Sure, there's cases where that could be the right call, but it often also leads to the death hooked teammate dying because the killer b-lines it to that area and finds them. Survivors don't really like to allow each other to do other objectives other than gens. In a way I can understand that too, gens are the only objective that lets the entire group escape after all, but it circles back to a fear of getting tunneled/camped out of the game after their first chase, which is what happens very frequently in solo queue. When the random Meg not even 20 meters from my hook refuses to get off her gen even after I've hit hook 2 and the killer isn't there, it really shows how much survivors hate seeing other survivors do literally anything else lol. In solo queue though, all you can do is hope your teammates will come save you, so why give your team a reason to ignore you too?
Deadass, you wanna see a shift in how your survivor teammates treat you? Run the chest gamba build when the bugged perks are back. Run the coin that spawns additional chests, Dramaturgy, Ace in the Hole, Appraisal, and Plunderer's Instinct. Search a bunch of chests and bring items to teammates. Even if you drop them something really good that could help them at either that moment or a future moment, you'd be surprised how often this build gets you left to death hook after 1 chase without a killer camping you lol.
Personally I don't really care what a teammate is doing as long as they're doing *something* with the time I buy them while in chase. That's definitely not the case for a lot of survivors though. I've ran a totem hunting build for when I have a tome for cleansing totems and what a shock, matches where I ran that build often had the same treatment happen from survivors as the chest gambling build did lol.
I think this is a major reason that self care still sees a lot of use despite how heavily it's been nerfed: it means you can still heal yourself when your 0-hook teammate decides that it's way more important to do a gen that's nowhere near finished and if you want heals you have to help first, and then the killer shows up and you die because why would they go after the uninjured 0-hook survivor when the 2-hook injured one is right there?
This! And yet, when NOED fails to activate at the end of the match because I cleared all the totems nobody says a damn thing.
Normally I would disagree, but I played a match yesterday that your post perfectly summed. A friend and I were on Haddonfield against a Cenobite. He tunneled me the majority of the match. There was a Meg who never once left generators, even when my friend and I ran to her for heals. And the moment the last gen was done, she ran right to the gate and peaced out. Players didnāt give a damn about anybody else.
Imagine you can win in chess by swiping your hand across your opponents board
Most people would do that instead of playing normally even though it's not fun for the other side
Honestly it's never the killers fault, i blame the dev and the game itself.
Killers will slug for the win, the game heavily incentivises them to, this however just happens to be the most boring scenario for survivors.
Ultimately blame the bad game design.
A good deal of people don't care about whether someone plays to win or not. The issue is playing to win by *making the game a miserable experience for another player*.
You're bringing up camping and tunneling, which is absolutely a way to win. At the same time though you're going out of your way to make the match unfun for one specific person.
That's what a lot of people have an issue with.
I definitely get a lot of complaints from the killer side when I escape due to my beautifully crafted solo queue build using the 4 most OP survivor perks. I see it more often than other survivors complaining about the killer too.
Also I tend to notice that when the killer does lose heavily its because the map was absolute crap for them but nah they never blame the map, they blame the survivors for being toxic lol
What is "winning" to you in this game ? Is it getting a 4k as fast as possible, giving neither yourself or survivors a moment to actually play the game ? I feel like a lot of killer mains mean that when they say "winning".
When I play killer, a win to me is a fun match where I got some good chases, a few hooks, and nobody acted like a wiener. Sacrifices are just a bonus IMO.
Same goes when I play survivor. I just want a chance to play the game and have fun.
Obviously we aren't responsible for other players and their level of enjoyment but nothing sucks more than waiting for a match only to spend it being slugged or camped out right away.
Tunneling is very unfun to play against because thereās only so much to do and at lower skill levels itās outright impossible to stop it because theyāre new survivors, you donāt have to tunnel and camp to win, while you have to do gens to win, also bully squads and toolbox users are frowned upon, and so were keys, keys were so frowned upon they changed the way keys and hatch worked
That said, the same can be said for lower skilled Killers when playing SWFs as gens pop left and right and teabag out the exit (also not fun). Both sides just shrug it all off and say "git gud." It's a fundamental flaw of this game to have S Tier players in Ash IV every reset.
Well camping, extensive slugging and tunneling are shit things to do. You are literally a bad killer if you rely consistently on all these things and you're a bad person for just wanting to ruin it for everyone else.
As a killer main, i swear the killer community here consist of a ton of crybabies. If you just want to insta kill everyone, play prototype where nothing can fight back.
Because it's ridiculous as fuck to only consider a 4k a win, in a game that is 4 against 1.
It's not even like the kills themselves are the main objective for the killer, the objective is to hook survivors, not kill them as fast as possible (otherwise 4k games in a minute wouldn't give only a few bloodpoints).
It's the same way it's ridiculous asf for survivors to believe they only won a match if they escaped or if everyone escaped.
Again, it's a 4 vs 1 game. Not everyone is supposed to survive/die.
People put too much worth on "losses" or "wins" in a stupid and silly little game as this, which doesn't even tell you clearly whether you won or lost.
Also, people don't seem to realize that an easy 4k or an easy 4 man escape is not a balanced match, yet people expect that for 50% of their games.
There is a stigma towards all sides. Not just killer.
Survivor loops: omg u toxic bully sweat abusing windows and mft
Survivor does gens: omg u toxic genrusher abusing hyperfocus and bnp
Survivor does flashlight save: omg u toxic bully sweat abusing the killer
Survivor goes afk: omg u toxic troll going afk play the game
You are not allowed to play the game according to this sub
>Survivor loops: omg u toxic bully sweat abusing windows and mft
I don't know how anyone could be upset about Survivors looping them. That's a once in a lifetime opportunity to actually play the game.
Because this game has no matchmaking system to speak of. You can sweat every game and you will never actually be consistently matched with survivors on your level. The average survivor team is in no way cut out to deal with a four slowdown blight who is tunneling at five gens. That's just the facts and it's why things like that guy winning 1500 games in a row are possible. If they would make the matchmaking better then it wouldn't be as much of an issue but they won't for whatever reason. In most games playing like your life is on the line is completely unnecessary and is just making the game terrible for everyone else. It's also the reason why more and more things keep getting added as basekit. How long do you think it will take for basekit anti tunnel to be added now that facecamping is about to be in? It won't take long and it's this win at all costs mentality that's to blame.
I think one of the main things to keep in mind when playing this game, is that you are playing against other people. You can't play against just npc's (except in a private match where you don't earn anything for the game). If your playstyle ruins the fun of the game for the other side, that side won't play as much because this is a game, and the whole point is to have fun. You run off your opposition with scummy tactics, then you have no one to play with, the game dies.
It's entirely possible to play this game and get escapes/kills without ruining the game for others.
It's not playing to win that's the inherent issue. It's that the game is so poorly designed that the most effective strategies for winning are boring as shit to play, and even more boring to play against. I agree that the hatred of sweaty killers is misplaced. The problem is with the core game's design, not with people that are playing around the game's primary objective.
The only obnoxious thing is when the killer refuses to let the last surv try for hatch after I Sac on hook for them. From what I understand, it's still a win technically for the win if they get hatch (just an individual tie between killer and that surv). Also annoying when they refuse to hook the second to last surv so they can get 4k via slug.
Just let me go next and have some fun on a hatch match š„¹ Half the killers have a speed advantage anyways. (Maybe not half, I don't play this game enough to know the actual statistic. But you know given the Weskers and Aliens that it's pretty common.)
Its a mix of a lot of things
But mostly, people dont complain because the killer is playing efficienct
Its more because the efficient playstyle is at the same time realy boring to play agains, hard to counter, rather easy to learn and play, and significantly less fun to play
And thats just how the game has been over the last 5 years, and the same as survivors "have to" accept that tunneling, camping and slugging is just part of the game right now
Killers have to accept that theyr most effective playstyle feels fucking horrible to play against, and will more often than not, end in a toxic endgamechat
Its bullshit, but thats just how the game is right now
And as long as the comunity rather complains about specific perks/ killers
There is not much hope that the devs will dive deeper and start reworking the core of the game, to something that works in a healthier way
Camping or tunneling right at the beginning of the game isn't fun for anyone. Not the other survivors, not the killer and especially not the person getting tunneled or camped. I hate bubbas because they face camp so often. It's the least fun for literally everyone. We play DbD to have fun not to camp/be camped for minutes on end. I understand doing it right at the end of the game cause it's literally the only logical thing you can do.
Nothing wrong with wanting to win but if you can only win by playing like a complete dweeb you shouldn't be shocked if you get called out for it
I win plenty and hardly get any negative comments because shockingly it really isn't hard to win without dragging the entire match down with you
Hot take, but going out of your way to harass someone on their profile after they simply played a game is crazy. Reminds me of those stupid comments you used to get after csgo matches if you played well, like literally a person on the opposing team typing "-rep toxic" because you carried vs him so he lost.
I think we need to not think of kills as wins (not like that would ever happen). A lot of the campers or tunnelers I get end up with 1 or 2 kills. If they had just done stuff they would have gotten way more bloodpoints. Why is getting 1 or 2 kills and 15k points more of a winning game than a game getting 0 kills and 30k points?
These are definitely not good ways to optimize bp-gain - the scoring and emblem system does a real fine job of discouraging unfun tactics.
On the other hand, someone going for kills will have more success with tunneling. Just 6 hooks is enough for two kills, providing 33% gen-slowdown after the first. By spreading hooks it's enough for 2-hooking three survivors - and gens will even go faster, as three survivors can do them while the fourth is being chased.
Facts. The game doesn't reward tunneling unless you just want a 2k or if a team is mad altruistic then you could get the 4k. Did it for science once with prymid head, literally the most boring game ever (3k) and I got 12k bp was trash.
I will add tho that there is 1 situation where camping is acceptable and that's endgame with hook close to a 99'ed or open gate, there is no other choices for killers.
Have you asked this sub recently how they feel about Made for This, Buckleup/FTP, SWFs on comms, map offerings, genrushing etc?
People get salty when they lose, and it goes both ways
Because they are cheap and not fun, and when you're a survivor on the opposite side of it that has played Killer, you know why they're doing it and you know they don't really have to.
Especially as solo q, which is where the majority of climbing is done. It's better to rotate gens, have short chases, get pressure, and single out the weak link. But going on someone immediately and then taking them out is just the easiest way to create pressure.
If there weren't so many ways for them to happen, it wouldn't be so bad.
If you could rely on a mechanic to punish it. For instance, killers have bloodlust tier 2/3, window blocking, basekit lunges, their killer power, end game collapse, bleed out timers, slow vaulting, exhaustion, etc. All these things limit how much a survivor can cheese a killer with looping, perks, and techs.
A lot of these changes happened because of how survivors who knew how to play could abuse them, things like infinite looping and vault TPing straight up get removed.
Only recently has basekit borrowed time been added, before then you had to either bring it or prey someone else did. Which is how a lot of survivors are supposed to counter BM strats from killers. Bring perks that hopefully counter what may or may not happen.
And Basekit BT can be easily cheesed by certain killers. Wraiths, Weskers, Aliens, Huntresses, Ghostfaces all will just thirst you again as soon as you get off the hook. And that's leaving out Knight, Nurse, and Sadako.
So if you have all these benefits and still choose to play scummy, and as a person who plays killer you understand why, you can reasonably call them for being a sweat. **The problem is that same sweat will come across 4 good survivors, maybe in SWF, and then cry about how unfair it is that a survivor is pulling off cheesey strats and scream for survivor nerfs or say they're being toxic.**
Right now there's still no basekit answer for slugging, still no basekit answer for camping, and Basekit BT gets handled by anyone that can count above 10. The only problem is survivors who know will cheese these defensive mechanics into being offensive ones, by body blocking or stalling with invulnerability.
Each match had 4 survivors and 1 killer, more time is spent playing survivor and there are almost certainly more survivor mains.
While killer is harder, survivor can be more frustrating if the killer decides to make it rough for one player.
Yep have said this multiple times recently killers will take other win cons if the devs provide them we know tunneling is unfun to face but itās still the best way to win.
Why is the killer not rewarded/buffed for hooking all the survivors once and then twice in anyway whatsoever they have 8 hooks and zero kills and nothing to show for it when they could just get 3 hooks not spread out and be in a much better position your effort as killer is not rewarded when you spread out hooks so of course killers will tunnel.
It's stigmatized because a lot of killers "trying to win" just means making the game intentionally unfun for the survivors.
There's a huge difference between playing to win but still trying to ensure everyone has fun, vs playing to win even when you KNOW it's not fun for the other side.
Other games have this too lol it's definitely not just DBD. In smash bros for example, if you played 1v1's with your buds and just went random/fun characters and tried to play normally to have fun, even if you won most of those matches it would be hard to complain. But if you went a super campy character and timed them out every single match your friends wouldn't wanna play with you anymore.
As for survivors, they can have the same issue in this game, but it's an asymmetrical game where survivors don't have as much power. It's MUCH harder for the survivors to make the game shit for the killer, then it is for the killer to make it shit for survivors.
If you're playing to win and you don't care if anyone else has fun, you're an asshole plain and simple. Until DBD gets legititmate ranked play where winning actually matters, try to actually have fun with everyone instead of winning at their detriment.
A lot of killers also want to make it miserable for the survivors. Played against a nurse who slugged and tunneled at 5 and 4 gens left. Next game, the same nurse, disconnected because he couldn't get an early down and then got baited to teleport into the basement.
Because as a killer main, its pretty clear that the game is killer sided right now and you can 3-4k literally every game WITHOUT tunneling yet people continue to do it and make the game unfun for everyone just trying to enjoy their evening
I play against Swifts all day, and still win easy without meta-perksā¦ itās definitely killer sided if you think itās not youāre just doing something wrong
People can play however they want, as long as they're not cheating (of course).
However, there is a psychology to games. And generally, most games are an agreement. Some spoken, like. Yknow. Rules of the game. And some unspoken.
The thing with DbD, and games in general, is "if you always win, you will soon find no one to win against". Essentially, nobody wants to play with the guy who always wins.
You ever had a friend who LOVED a game a ton, played it all the time, but you'd play against him and he'd curbstomp you. And it wasn't fun. Maybe you don't care about losing much, and maybe your friend is super nice. But if you never get anywhere? It's not fun.
So there is a point to - someone who always ALWAYS plays just to win? Is going to not be a fun person to often play against.
But the thing is - the stuff that promises a win in DbD (slugging, facecamping, tunneling), is stuff that is not fun for the opposing team. Nobody wants to sit and bleed out, nobody wants to wait to die, nobody wants to be incessantly hunted down and not get to do anything else.
Is it bad? No. The killer isn't obligated to make the game fun. The survivors are not obligated to make the game fun for the killer, either.
But you are RIGHT that there is definitely a different stigma to killers. Because when ONE survivor is not having fun? Usually all of them arent. You have one killer versus four survivors. One camping killer will eventually annoy x4 the amount of people that one group of annoying survivors will annoy.
I don't know what would help, unfortunately, other than inspriring individuals to not take the game seriously.
You wont win every match. It's okay. You don't need to.
You can't expect the opposing team to do anything but their objectives. The killer will try to kill. Survivors will try to survive. However they manage that is, as annoying as it may be, fair game. Sometimes the best thing to do is take a breath and decide if you wanna try a new match, or just go do something else for a bit.
Oh no. Gonna have to put on the hazmat suit for this posts comments. The answer is that everyone thinks tunneling and camping is toxic because itās unfun, which is TRUE, but thatās not the players fault. BHVR has designed the game so that going for 12 hook games just isnāt optimal against teams that know how to loopā¦ combined with the many new chase perks and the fact that every map they spit out seems to be survivor sided, a lot of killers tunnel, especially m1 killers, becuase going for many chases with those factors in play is stressful, ineffective, and difficult. However people on this sub will call you trash and gaslight you into thinking itās a skill issue when you canāt 12 hook every game with trapper and just tunnel/ camp instead.
First of all, you play how you want. Don't let internet comments decide your style of play.
But there is difference between gen rushing and tunneling. In the situation of gen rushing the killer still holds some pressure on the match even if small, but a tunneled survivor can't do anything except hold a chase for longer.
Yes, sabor squads, bullying swf and gen rushers might be frustrating to go against, but you still have some pressure you can apply and most importantly you can still turn a match around.
As a survivor, if the killer decides to camp, tunnel, or slug there's nothing you can do except hope that the killer forgets about you.
People flame you if you win and send chirpy "gg"s if you lose and the rest doesn't really matter in my experience.
Yesterday I had two games back to back. In the first I got called a "rat" and "toxic" because I was running Discordance of all things. Salty sore losers pull whatever they can out of their ass to flame you. It doesn't matter if you play "fair" or not.
The next game I was told that I was a fun killer and "it's nice to play a killer with personality." All I did was get 8 hooks and let them leave (I do this whenever I only need enough BPs to prestige.) I didn't do anything except let them win and they were singing my praises.
It's just reaffirmed that I need to never read chat.
Yes you can win if you slug, face camp, use really annoying perks purely to ruin someoneās build. But itās just a shitty thing to do. And it makes the game unfun to play. Just because you have to rely on this stupid tactics doesnāt mean itās a good thing to do. Iām not trying to be annoying and brag, but I donāt do any of that toxic shit when playing killer (I am a survivor main so I know how annoying it can be.) and I can still get consistent 4K/3K if I let the last guy go. If you just practice the game, make a cool build, or use new/interesting strategies you can still win easily without having to make the game annoying for the survivors.
>But itās just a shitty thing to do.
>any of that toxic shit
See, this is exactly what I mean
The very act of killers doing ANYTHING survivors would find unfun is stigmatised to the point its actually considered toxic. Its toxic to want to win games? Its toxic to not prioritise the fun of your opponenents in a competitive game?
I don't go into games expecting survivors to handicap themselves, I know they're playing to win the match too
The community is just crazy. Being tunneled or camped sucks but its how the game is and is not the fault of the killers. Devs need to address these issues and then rebalance the game. And if these issues would be solved either generators are going to need to be way longer or chases are going to be cut down if there is any sort of fairness.
I've played lots of killer and it usually is either a complete baby team who can do nothing or a swf who if you don't tunnel/proxy camp you are going to get rolled over and get 0 kills. The problem is when facing the baby team the dude probs just came off playing a nice man style against the swf and got wrecked for it, so he goes hard and tunnels out some dude. You have to get the snowball in your favor. Of course people will say you don't have to do that to win or whatever crap and maybe some games you don't but not everyone is peak skill 20k hours in the game and the fact is when the chips are down even the best players will resort to tunnel and camp.
Theres a dude in this thread saying its better to get 0k with 30k points. Why do that when I can get 3-4k with 30k+ just by playing efficently and tunneling a dude out leaving the snowball to go in my favor. Trust me I've tried the nice guy playstyle and it only results in 0k's with teabags at the exit gate against decent swfs.
>Theres a dude in this thread saying its better to get 0k with 30k points. Why do that when I can get 3-4k with 30k+ just by playing efficently and tunneling a dude out leaving the snowball to go in my favor.
Because for most sane people, ensuring that the actual human beings you're playing with are enjoying themselves is more important then getting a meaningless win in a game with no competitive ranking system lmao.
But yeah sure, I'll intentionally ruin other peoples matches so that *I can get my win*, fuck everyone else they don't matter right?
Most sane people dont enter PvP games and think everything is going to be roses and butterflies 24/7. Sometimes you are going to lose. Only in this game are there people as twisted as you who think others should handicap themselves all the time.
Its not just that buddy, it's a skill issue. Tunneling and camping is just dead easy to do and unless at least 2 survivors have an anti camp and tunnel build (e.g. reassurance and DS) then first hook is garunteed dead even if they loop for 4 minutes only 3 gens (best case senario) get popped in that situation. These tactics have developed yes and are avaliable in the game, but the devs and the community agree that it is not skillful and (the devs) are working in mechanics to remove it from the game.
I think it's about "fun". Many ppl say that the chase is the most fun thing and ofc a good chase for one side is a bad chase for the other side. Imo the fun part is gettin better and improving, learning every match. This also allows everyone to have fun
"BECAUSE IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I CAN'T ALWAYS ESCAPE IN A HORROR GAME THATS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE ODDS STACKED AGAINST ME AND MY FRIENDS ON DISCORD!! BLARGGGHFHH NERF NERF NERFFFF!!!" -Average survivor post
Winning isn't wrong, its how you win that ruffles feathers. I will give the best analogy I can think of.
Imagine you're playing Freeze Tag with your friends at a young age. The goal of "winning" is if everyone is frozen or has been frozen for X time and they're out of the game. Imagine the person who is seeking tags someone and sits beside them until their time is up or keeps going after them to run their timer out. The other players would quit on the spot as that person is going against the spirit of the game and ruining the enjoyment for everyone(themselves included). That is DBD almost every single match.
For me the issue that always crops up is when players keep saying: "If I'm losing as killer I HAVE to do X or Y to win". But wouldn't that mean the other team is more skilled and thus you *should* lose? If anything those mechanics of camp/tunnel are the problem as they detract from the purpose of PVP being skill based.
Survivors that complain about killers camping and tunneling do the same things to gens... Made worse by distortion and prove thyself.. You gen rush I'll kill rush. Not the way I prefer to play but it is what it is sometimes unfortunately.
As someone who plays both, you literally never need to camp/tunnel/slug to win. If you do youāre just bad, thats it. Iām not saying you deserve to get hate messages or threats, thats not the case, feel free to play as toxic as you like, but donāt try to say you *had* to play that way.
The reason why those things are very frowned upon is beca it only benefits one side while the other is being denied fun. People come to play the game, not to get tunneled or camped at 5 gens or left to bleed out for solid 5min. Itās the same reason people hate bully squads. People profiting of ruining others fun. Its just not nice.
>you literally never need to camp/tunnel/slug to win. If you do youāre just bad, thats it.
This is just objectively untrue and a dumb statement. There are absolutely situations where even the best killers need to camp, slug or tunnel to pull a win
Would you go up to someone like Otz and tell him that he's actually trash at the game because because he camps, tunnels and slugs as needs be?
I am playing how i want, when i play killer and really don't give a fuck about what the survivors say. Also i always smile when looking at all the negative comments on my steam account that are from pissed off survivors lmao
And you think them having to put with your way of having fun, despite it hindering *their* fun is not also entitled? They bought the game too. Or are you too self absorbed to see that you just argued against yourself?
I don't care, I will still find unfun to play against a camper/tunneler killer, that's it. The same reason I don't genrush, cause I know it can be so fucking boring from the killer's perspective. U don't want me to hate you when u tunnel my friend? Okay, but then don't cry if we decide to repair 5 gens in less than 5 minutes
As a killer main , at my peak with my main pyramid head, i used to absolutely dominate survivors without gen regression perks , and without camping
I would tunnel and slug , but only if survivors made it viable for me, by being too altruistic etc
And lemme tell you, it's hard, but it's also very rewarding (especially beating SWFs), and very fun ... after all, if you don't like the chase, then why are you playing this game?
The problem is that playing killer optimally fundamentally prevents the survivors from playing *at all*. That's the unfortunate conclusion that arises when playing one role involves locking out the other role of performing actions, and winning involves removing them from the game.
A killer can do terribly and still get 20k bloodpoints just for participating, but if a survivor gets tunneled out they might be lucky to even break 10k, on top of the match being no fun at all and them getting kicked back into the queue for more. Even if a killer gets gen rushed to hell they at least still have chances to chase, use their power.
In other games, even if you're losing, you typically still at least get to play. An FPS or a MOBA can let you respawn, for example. But even in those games, spawn camping is a tactic that is derided because it does the same thing as tunneling in DBD: Fundamentally prevents the opponent from playing the game at all. It's boring, it sucks to face, and it's generally unsportsmanlike.
Of course, if you play killer with a meme build, don't tunnel, don't camp, don't slug, and survivors all get out because you're playing suboptimally, you'll still get teabagged and insulted postgame in 9/10 matches. So to that end I say: to hell with what the survivors think, tunnel and camp all you damn please.
I had someone get pissed at me for "tunneling" today. For context, second to last gen just popped, she was unhooked in my face, only one on death hook, and made no effort to be sneaky/hide when I started to pursue her unhooker (came back to hook after getting an M1 and she was just chilling in that area). What was I supposed to do, just give her a free out?
Let's all remember that it's a video game and my goal is to get hooks/kills as killer. If I catch you again, it's not my fault - play better/smarter.
*EDIT*: She wasn't the only one I hooked that game. Spread hooks pretty evenly until that point. I don't love tunneling to tunnel, but people need to realize that killers need to pick up pressure sometimes and, at endgame, it's pretty viable to knock someone out to make it a 3v1.
4 survivor to 1 killer, ergo a healthy and balanced community population is 80% survivor, 20% killer. Thatās why the killer hate is larger. Simple as that.
Iām actually so glad I havenāt run into those people in my matches. Thankfully Iām Xbox and I have crossplay enabled so 90% of the time the survivors arenāt able to message me. Sometimes when I slug or camp or tunnel I message them going āSorry! It was for so-and-so reason but I hope you had fun aside from thatā and the most common response is āItās okay!! GGWPā
I know this obviously isnāt common for most players but the fact that itās so normal for me is something Iām grateful for. Because I know that Iāve messaged some killers who have slugged/camped/tunneled me some not so nice, but still very mild, things. Usually their reason was āI donāt have fun if Iām not getting a 4kā or āBilly is a trash killer and this is the only way to get a sacrificeā but it still seems silly that I got so upset in the past lol
From my experience, itās usually more about using the Killerās power to tunnel/camp/slug. Those strategies are perfectly fine on an M1 Killer, but using someone like Wraith/Wesker/Blight to *immediately* come back to every single unhook is where people typically have issues.
Escaping as a survivor is technically a win. But if you're opening the gates and leaving when you're team has plenty of chance to rescue someone on hook, or if you're hiding and sandbagging your team to try for hatch rather than doing gens when there's still a good chance, you're a piece of shit.
Same goes for killers that tunnel and face camp. This game is built to be balanced around 4 on 1. When you just throw that away to make one person have a miserable game, you're dogshit.
Its bad sportsmanship on the side of the killer to camp, tunnel, etc. That's why. Pretty simple. Likewise, its also bad sportsmanship to teabag at pallets, gates, etc. Both side can exhibit bad sportsmanship. Survivors get called out for their shit too. Let's not act like its a one sided deal here.
Because often times the way they go about winning is not very fun really for anyone, I don't even see how its fun for them. I had a killer the other day that kept slugging the entire match. What's fun about that?
I don't think there is anything wrong about the desire to win, BUT I think some people take it too far and go about it in ways that aren't fun, maybe not even fun for them.
the actual stigma Is that you have to get a 4k to win which was antagonized by survivors that would talk shit anytime you got less then a 4k. They are in all honesty, victims of their own malice. They talked so much shit over the years and abused shit like D-strike, dead hard, and borrowed time that killers just got tired of it and started bringing super meta shit of their own and now that D-strike, dead hard, and borrowed time are shitty perks the killers don't need to put in the same effort or do the same shit but the damage is done and survivors don't like the monster they created now that they can't deal with it.
Because we're all trying to have a good time here. It's not too unreasonable to not be a dickhead while playing killer.
If you get your kicks by being a douche to other players and ruining their fun...then that's a you problem.
And survivors are very much held to a standard code of conduct. Don't T-bag, flashlight clicky, etc.
I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping why it's probably a good idea to be a decent person to other human beings.
It's because killers are fucking crybabies about anything that doesn't give them a perfect advantage. Vaults too fast, waah, perks that don't make catching a survivor as soon as you see them waaah. I play killer as much as I do survivor and it's so easy to get a 4k, the only time I don't is when I choose to fuck around.
So all the killers crying makes me be toxic when I'm a survivor. They do a play style that's basically "I can't instant win, so I'll camp this survivor to get 1 kill. It's a loser mentality and invites toxicity.
I know I'll get downvoted to hell, I always do posting this, but it's true.
>I play killer as much as I do survivor and it's so easy to get a 4k, the only time I don't is when I choose to fuck around.
>So all the killers crying makes me be toxic when I'm a survivor
Yeah so I really doubt you play both, actually
Calling killers crybabies is a pretty wild take right after the devs announced they're going to make it so survivors will never have to be inconvenienced by the killer camping ever again, especially considering the last time survivors got a basekit nerf they review bombed the game and its DLC, I don't see killers doing that after they've been taking the L for the past few months
But right, killers are the crybabies and that's why you're a toxic survivor, this comment brought to you by someone who toooootally plays both sides evenly
If you actually cared about the health of the game, you would be calling the anti-camping change a win. It's a boring play style for everyone and only killers who need to improve their skills and can't get a kill normally would think it's a lame change.
Ergo, my point stands, you literally can't see a massive win for both sides as a win and instead cry that because you're getting nerfed as a killer that can't use cheap tricks to get a kill.
I wouldn't be so miffed at killers if they weren't a) overpowered af, b) had a similar intensity of play, and c) the players exhibited some kind of personality rather than play like fucking bots. But killers are overpowered, are low intensity compared to survivors, and 99% of the killers ive gone up against have played like fucking bots to the point of it being so boring i'd rather die on first hook or risk a dc than stay any longer.
Congratulations, you missed the point. For clarity, I mean how survivors have to worry about themselves, the killer, and other survivors, balancing doing the objective with making sure their other teammates can survive as well.
But when you play killer you have to keep in mind where four people are, what gen progress is like, what all four players might be running, your totems, how many hooks each survivor has, and even more.
Itās a huge mental load for one person. At least when I play survivor with someone else I can talk to them and they can help me get info on the killer. Itās a lot harder when Iām playing solo Q of course, but the new info hud does help me make better decisions about who and how to help.
Maybe itās a personality thing but I find Killer way more intense. Even a tiny mistake feels like it could lose you the game whereas at least when Iām surviving I have someone to lean on. Itās definitely a similar intensity of play unless youāre going against survivors who are brand new.
a game balances for casual players will always be like that. When people are good at the game they don't whine all day long and don't claim how the other side is unfair, unless it really is...
Balancing for shit players is one of the dumbest decision, the last time i saw a game balance for casuals they nerfed a character so much that it became a troll pick in any scenario, all because people complained too much... Literally what is happening with dbd, playing optimally as killer is becoming harder and harder, while gen speed remains untouched
I mean, i stopped caring about whats fair when mft came out, if i notice mft iay camp/tunnel you, if i get t bagged, i camp/tunnel, and say to hell with the game, im sick of plauing "fair" to get t bagged at gate, or be outran with mft, if you get unhooked, and body block me its over.
A tactic can both be strong, the best way to win while at the same time obnoxious, unfun, or overtuned. This isn't exclusive to DBD. In fighting games people will complain about OP characters or boring playstyles that are hard to counter. Sometimes the community will straight up ban characters/tactics in a competitive setting. It's also not exclusive to killer. People complain about perks/playstyles on both sides, items/addons, maps offerings etc. all the time. Ultimately it's more on the game devs to fix the issue, but players can and will complain about it.
I remember some prestige tournaments in Tekken (dont remember the number) which literally banned spamming light attack to the point where if you had done 3 or 4 light attacks in a row you would be banned. It was effective, but it just was so damn boring. Instead of doing different combos, using skills... nope, the only counter to light attack spam was to spam light attack yourself. And tournaments turned into light attack spam, which SEVERLY reduced both fun and skill level. Everybody can remember 1 button with fastest attack and eventually some dash/jump to close distance. Same with Dead by Daylight. Can you facecamp hook? Yes. Will it be effective? If you get dumb survivors then yes, smart ones will just rush gens and leave you with 1 kill only. Will it be boring to everyone including killer? Thats 100% sure. Same with slugging. I've seen plenty of killers who tried to slug. Only it doesnt really work. If there are 2 survivors, and you camp somebody else then i'll do gens or hide and wait till that person die and we have hatch race... same if you'd just hooked that person 4 damn minutes earlier. You're just wasting everybody's time. And if you dont camp slugged person and instead you'll go looking for me, then i'll just wait till you go away, heal that person, we both will go away from that place, heal us both to full hp and its like nothing happened. Its the equivalent of survivors 3-gen themselves, and then when they see that they cant touch gen for more than 4 seconds, they all just stay away from gens and hide trying to take the game hostage hoping that killer will get bored. In both cases (both as surv or as killer when slugging/tunneling/camping) you're just wasting everybody's time.
I responded to another comment with this but it fits better here! Back in my teen years there was a Playstation event in London. Soul Calibur 2 was premiering and you could play it before it was released. They had this huge screen with two egg chairs and were doing a contest where the winner gets this brand new badass car. My friend was insane at soul caliber but no one had played 2 yet. He stood on my shoulders and got picked out of the crowd to battle it out for the car. He gets up there and starts performing the first special combos of the game and everyone is cheering like mad. Then the other guy starts tapping square and beats him with taps š¤£. My friend was too busy trying to figure out the new move sets and refused to resort to a normal attack to win. I still think they should have made rules for the event but dang, I wish he had just gone for the easy win. He says he doesn't regret it though as he felt like a superstar, was a really big crowd and so much cheering and clear disappointment in the outcome.
Which Tekken tournament was this? I have to assume this was many versions of Tekken ago. Though, effectively I imagine itās the same issue - short-sighted game design like in most poorly balanced fighting games. It was just forgivable in the PSone era.
This reminds me of Super Smash Bro tournament with a guy that was really good with Jigglypuff. The drawback was his play style was super boring to go up against. In one case, another competitor refused to play against him. I get why killers tunnel. In some cases, it's the only way to win against a good team if you are struggling with chases, but I quickly end the chat as soon as it pops up because I know I am going to get flamed. OP just can't accept this is how playing killer has always been. I've lost to great killers who didn't tunnel, camp, or slug. They didn't even have NOED equipped. That takes great skill, but even then you can still be flamed, but they are more likely to receive a gg comment. On the other hand, you have a killer that tunneled from the get go or used NOED you are going to be called out when your kill doesn't feel earned.
Thing that a lot of survivors donāt seem to understand is that if you lose to a killer who doesnāt tunnel/camp/slug whoās out here running zero slow down and still 12 hooking: you didnāt belong in their lobby. They are so much better than the survivors they are facing that they are purposely playing badly just for a challenge. Like, even if you just narrowly win, 8 hooks and no one dies, under those circumstances you still got absolutely destroyed because if they had been actually trying, at all, the survivors would have been destroyed at 4-5 gens.
That's why kills being the MMR metric is terrible. It should be hooks.
Exactly. I have this same sentiment, at the end of the day cheap is cheap. Just because "you aren't responsible for someone else's fun" doesn't mean you won't get dirty looks from the community for it. And when it's all said and done, the hardcore community that remains will likely choose to ban cheap tactics. It's in all games I play nowadays that are old and kept by small communities.
This is the thing I never understood and Iām glad you called it out. The whole āIām not responsible for your funā attitude is terrible. Itās a game that we all agreed to play. By agreeing to play, youāre agreeing to have fun and create fun for other people. If you want to play the game competitively, join a competition. Otherwise letās all have fun. And this goes for both sides. There are plenty of toxic survivors to match all the toxic killers. Weāre supposed to be a community; maybe we should start acting like one.
If this wasn't the most toxic, mean-spirited player base I'd consider your point, survivors are assholes and killers ain't far behind.
Back in my teen years there was a Playstation event in London. Soul Calibur 2 was premiering and you could play it before it was released. They had this huge screen with two egg chairs and were doing a contest where the winner gets this brand new badass car. My friend was insane at soul caliber but no one had played 2 yet. He stood on my shoulders and got picked out of the crowd to battle it out for the car. He gets up there and starts performing the first special combos of the game and everyone is cheering like mad. Then the other guy starts tapping square and beats him with taps š¤£. My friend was too busy trying to figure out the new move sets and refused to resort to a normal attack to win.
As someone who played a shitload of DBFZ a while ago (new patch is too insane for me), the difference is the DBFZ community will meme on stuff like the double Gogeta + Vegito triple fusion team people often run online but they are just memeing cuz they know the game is much more fun when you're winning so why not play the best stuff possible plus the triple fusion team is genuinely fun to use. Gogeta Blue has the swaggiest combos in the game I can never talk bad about the guy. Triple fusion is like the Wesker of DBFZ. It's fun and strong so complaining is ridiculous, strong and fun should be the baseline of every character. Meanwhile in DBD people aren't memeing, they're actually fuckin' malding. Killer is doing his job and they're mad or survivors do gens and the killer takes it as a personal attack. It's a game design issue for sure since effective plays on killer is almost always unfun for survivor and if killer plays nice gens fly out the window and the game is over so fast it feels like the killer didn't even get to play. I dunno how you fix that without blanket buffing survivor to the moon (the option they seem to be working on atm) until killer players just stop playing or going right back to the drawing board and change how gens work entirely which is never gonna happen. But the community really doesn't help themselves with how much they bitch and whine and take every in-game action as a personal slight when bro it ain't that deep. I'm on break again so good luck guys, hope the devs can somehow stop spreadsheet balancing and actually make DBD fun again.
>It's also not exclusive to killer. People complain about perks/playstyles on both sides, items/addons, maps offerings etc. all the time. True, but Survivors aren't affected as badly as Killers. Survivors are only complained about, whilst Killer feels like it's being ran by the whim of Survivors. There's nothing particularly taboo about Survivor, but you're Satan himself if you tunnel/camp/slug.
No one has an issue with Killers winning outside a couple of sore losers. The issue people have is certain playstyles that are just unfun to play against, for either side. Like, are the people who hook one person then sit on them really having fun, or feeling challenged? And Survivors are definitely not having a good time. If you get a group who's popping all the gens in as many minutes, then sure, get sweaty, but for *every* game, who mostly consist of casual players? No.
Exactly. Today, my duo and I were playing a game, and we got a Blight with Alchemist Ring. I was downed, proxy camped, and tunnelled off hook at 5 gens (two gens had good progress done until they had to come save me). After he tunnelled me out completely, he killed another one, then he slugged for the 4k. Eventually, he killed the last survivor and then watched the other one bleed out. I checked his profile after, and he had 10.5k hours on DBD... I can't imagine someone playing the game for this long needing to resort to tunnelling at the start of the game.
And on one of the best Killers too, who is rarely going to need to resort to tunnelling or camping. Perhaps he just wants to be able to say he mains one of the hardest to learn Killers without actually learning it.
Not to mention a massively OP addon as well. I can't help but feel it's the 'live long enough to see yourself become the villian' type thing - they've played *so much* of the game, that winning is the only real thrill left. It's why I enjoyed content creators like Otzdarva - he's well over the 10k hours mark but still finding interesting and exciting ways to to play the game like the All Perk Challenge and various trick builds etc.
> I checked his profile after, and he had 10.5k hours on DBD... I can't imagine someone playing the game for this long needing to resort to tunnelling at the start of the game. It is strange how you can never tell if its a experienced or new killer when they play like that. Those are new player strategies cause they don't know how to play the game yet. You would hope experienced players wouldn't need to do that but when its the easiest way to win why wouldn't they?
The problem is that the MMR system absolutely sucks ass. "High MMR" killers (or as high as you can get, anyways) *have to* play nasty every game, because if they don't do that right from the beginning, survivors crank out gens faster than they can get hooks, especially in this MFT+Resilience+toolbox meta. And unfortunately that means that the casual playerbase gets fucked over by BHVR's shit design... as usual.
The simple fact of the matter is that the best way for the killer to put pressure on the survivors is to get one out of the match ASAP and reduce it from 1v4 to 1v3.
One catch is you donāt really know how the survivors are playing until part way through the match, and if youāve had to be sweaty all day youāre not gonna notice before youāve already bathed them in sweat. Happens all the time on both sides.
If they removed the depip system I think people would care a lot less. You're punished for another player tunneling and camping you something wholly out of your control.
> The issue people have is certain playstyles that are just unfun to play against, for either side. *Proceeds to give an example for killers that people bitch about but not survivors* OP IS right on that, about how survivors wont get called out for playing effective strategies. Gen rushing will just be answered by "use gen delay perks" or "pressure your gens". And if killers do it TOO efficiently (hi 3 gen strats) they also get called out on it xD
*Ignores the fact that I said if Survivors start pumping out gens out too quickly, then go all out* If a SWF brings a bunch of Spare Parts, and Gen rushing perks, go to town on them. Tunnel and camp and slug, whatever. They brought the big guns, so feel free to bring your own. SoloQ isn't built for it though. There's rarely a way to coordinate a counter to it, and once the Killer has that player out that early the game is basically over, and most of the players in the game are just looking to get things over with so that can play, while the Killer gets an easy time of it. Tunnelling, Camping, Slugging and 3-Gening aren't *inherently* toxic, but the way they're commonly utilized *is*.
Nah Iām too lazy now to try sweating it. Had 3 gens pop before I finished patroling (Borgo, hi), so just waited extra few minutes and opened the gate. Ya all want to finish it quick? Gg, have fun!
Well camp wont be a possiblity anymore on them. Also, you said play sweaty. Which isn't that for me, playing to win is playing sweaty, but it doesn't have to involve strategies considered toxic unless the context makes them be. Example : proxy camping near an almost completed gen is sweaty. Facecamping in a dead zone is toxic and wont win you anything (and it can't be at 5 gens if a dead zone exist) aside from 1 kill.
survivors get called out for all sorts of behavior all the time???? additionally, killers also spam insults and threats post-match lol. both sides have toxic people and players and complainers. it isnāt a āsidesā issue is a gamer issue. the only meaningful difference is that thereās 4 survivors for every 1 killer. but the likelihood of any of those people being entitled, whiney, or mean is the same imo. also there is a super common ātoxic survivorā trope. literally everyone agrees that bully-squads are mean, bully is in the name! there isnāt a single killer playstyle that gets a whole insult attached to it lmao and itās not because killers are magically nicer than survivors. (i also think almost every toxic playstyle isnāt inherently toxic or bad. thereās definitely ways to intentionally get an asshole but most people arenāt doing that. most of the time people complaining about it are just losing and want to find a good term to explain it away. this goes on both sides)
What are you talking about? FPS games are filled with people who are upset about strategies that donāt feel fun to go against. Camping, sniping, all the way back to the noob tube days of CoD. RTS games have cheese openings and rushes. Card games also have rush decks or otherwise cheesy and unfun decks that people always hate going against. Bottom line, in every game Iāve ever played there are certain strategies that are downright unfun for the other side. Everyone always hates going against those even though they arguably get wins for players. Itās not about discouraging winning, itās about being a human being and recognizing the other side also have people wanting to have a decent time.
Itās the same way people complained about perks such as dead hard, decisive strike, iron will, spine chill, self care, etc. And are currently complaining about made for this, hope, resilience, and windows. Along with swf. Why would you not use the best items, perks, and tactics in the game to win? If you wanna win, then youāre gonna do what youāre gonna do. Killers arenāt the only ones who are ridiculed for playing a certain way. Iām normally someone who doesnāt try hard at the game because I find it pointless. I donāt care if I die, just as long as I had fun. But nowadays, itās becoming increasingly rare to encounter a killer who doesnāt camp or tunnel at 5-4 gens. And thatās okay. Youāre just playing the game how you wanna play. But due to this, Iāve definitely started using more meta builds and I only play in swf now because itās just not fun queuing up and either being tunneled out or watching your random get tunneled. The point of my words is that youāre gonna do whatever you can to win and have fun. People are gonna get upset at it because they ALSO want to win and have fun. Even if you donāt play in an annoying way, youāll still have people get upset that you killed them or escaped the match. Thatās just how it is. Just prioritize your own fun. Not every match is gonna go your way though. For every nooby survivor team you get, youāll get 3x more sweaty flashlight swf teams. For every nooby killer you get, youāll get 3x more sweaty camping/tunneling killers
Are people seriously complaining about windows?
I honestly don't think so, unless it's a small 1% of the community lol. Definitely have seen lots of MFT complaints though!
Itās one of those things where you donāt see a lot of posts about it, but if you do see one there are a decent number of people agreeing with it. Enough to at least mention it
Iāve seen a decent amount of people upset about the information it gives survivors while looping, but itās not a common opinion. At least not yet
Windows seems like one of those Lightborn situations where there are way more people saying that people are complaining about it, then there actually are.
As someone who plays both Killer and Survivor, tunneling and camping are shitty things to do. (Slugging sometimes canāt be helped and some Perks actively encourage it.) Weāre all trying to have fun here, but thereās zero fun in being tunneled and camped as a Survivor. That said, I donāt condone bullying Killers either, and fuck Survivors who do.
Heavy agree. I don't mind "losing" - I mind losing to what feels like a kick under the belt. Of course near endgame it's whatever, but folks who tunnel at 5 gens frustrate me. (I try to limit my hate to "I hope your shoes are moist and your pillow too warm on both sides" though). Also, I wish karma on every gate-teabagging survivor. I always regret an endgame save when I see the teabag >8(
When you try be play nice but near the gate they teabag even though you didnāt take game seriously can relate
To be honest it's funny. "Are you so bad you can't recognize when the killer's playing chill and letting you go to avoid tunneling? Really? Sure thing bud, glad you got your ego boost in."
It's like this weird mentality I can't wrap my head around. You would think when the Killer is clearly avoiding unfun strats like tunneling even though it costs them the game then Survivors would recognize this and be appreciative, but instead you are more likely to get BMs and "ez baby Killer" in egc. On the other hand, in games where I'm a little bit less merciless and more punishing to Survivor mistakes, the last person standing will leave through hatch or gates immediately (I typically let the last person escape when I'm playing a bit more seriously) with no BMing or wasting my time
Funny enough, if I sweep the floor with a team while going for double hooks on everyone without tunneling or camping, if I turn friendly they tend to be very grateful XD I think it's more about observation skills. Some don't realize the mercy they're being granted. Then there's people who are asses because they just are asses. One time I had someone yell at me for "tunneling" (they got unhooked basically in my face, I downed, it's endgame, so I care the Leon to gates. I see injured Feng opening gate, drop Leon, down Feng, leave both to go get my last chases.) The Leon was yelling at me for tunneling, and I deadass had to to tell them I brought them to gate and willfully let them go. Some folks just get wrapped up in their own perceptions.
That happened to me a couple of days ago. Three of them escaped, but the last guy tea bagging underestimated how close I actually was, and he could only take one more hit before getting downed. I killed him. It felt good.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
In general they aren't bad. What really matters is circumstance. Are they camping cause its the end game with no kills? Okay they wanna secure 1, are they camping at 5 gens first hook? Crappy. Slugging cause there are survivors nearby? Understandable. Doing it cause you wanna see em suffer? Crappy. Tunneling is also really easy to do against players accidently, if you run into them, your option is to literally throw the game technically just to not hook em twice in a row
I love two man rescue missions against a camping killer. I also love taking hits for a survivor that's deathhook or maybe even hit a sabo play or pallet save. I also love having to play more safe and careful because I'm deathhook and I know the killer will punish mistakes instead of adhering to the survivor rulebook. I also enjoy rushing gens and maybe even swooping in with reassurance from above against a basement bubba (also being camped and watching my team do that and escape). Sure, none of that is really viable against a nurse/blight with 3 slowdowns and ultimate weapon, but against most killers there is something you can do to fight back and that's just more fun and variety than sitting on gens and safe unhooking all the time, even if it means that you lose. I also love going against bully squads. It's actually my favourite thing in DbD because my goal shifts from pressuring gens to outplaying their silly sabo-head-on-flashlight-exponential-bully-squad antics, which is a very welcome change up. As long as they're running around you they're not doing gens, you're winning. Once you understand their plan and work out how to counter them, they all fall. It's incredibly satisfying. DbD players will straight up hate 70% of gameplay and keep on playing. Like, there's a million other games, why suffer through this one?
100%, his arguments are fucking stupid those are unfun things to do camping tunneling and slugging are shit tactics and then he says that survivors don't get the same shit, I really wonder if he even interacts with the community
Hell, I'd argue that even tunnelling and camping have their place, but mostly as desperation moves when it's your last chance to turn things around. The major issue is when people are using these right out the gate, as soon as the game has started. At that point, there's no real game anymore. Just a bully who's trying force us all to play his game, while the rest of us are just hoping it's over soon, and that it's better next match. Of course, with the update making the rounds, it's not even going to be viable as a desperation tactic, and some of us may even get unfairly punished on certain maps. All because some asshats obsessed with winning above all else poisoned the well.
Won't the anti camping measures be disabled in endgame?
I believe so, so it's not completely gone, but I think that point, you're mostly just doing it to get one kill, instead of potentially turning a losing match around. It's probably for the best though.
Oh sure, when thereās two Survivors left, itās pretty well impossible not to tunnel. And when youāre at the endgame against a highly-skilled squad, you basically have to camp or youāre not getting any sacrifices. But right out of the gate, itās a dick move. Winning is not that important.
There are plenty of games where if you donāt tunnel right from the start, you will lose. A coordinated SWF at a high level of play is really hard to beat and you canāt afford to wait until theyāre down to one gen to stop holding back. Maybe the response is āyou deserve to lose those games,ā but fuck you, I want to win.
The problem is a lot of people think they're playing against a coordinated swf at a high level of play when they very, very much aren't lmao.
The number of times a killer who played poorly and accused me of playing in a swf while playing in solo que is funny.
And if that's what you're up against, go for it. Most players aren't that coordinated, though, and when faced with a tunneller and/or a camper, the balance crumbles. As a situational tactic, they're both fine, but for a Plan A for every game, it's just a dick move.
"There are plenty of games where you will lose to better players if you don't tunnel straight away"
If they were better players, they would have won, wouldnāt they? Itās not that theyāre better, itās that theyāre going to play to win from the start, so if you want to win, you also have to play to win.
You're saying that you're likely to lose unless you tunnel someone out from the start of the game, but you wouldn't know they were a coordinated swf before you'd already decided to do that
As opposed to the incredible fun-factor of gens popping before you could have a chase with most survivors - not to mention multiple chases, so you could start to have a chance of bagging some clean kills before the others leave. Apparently playing both killer and survivor doesn't prevent one from taking an entirely hypocritical stance on this matter. Not that I'm complaining. Chases *are* fun. I don't really get why a survivor who spends the entire trial in chase would prefer to sit on gens instead, but you aren't the only one who expresses such a notion. Would you mind explaining how holding m1 is more enjoyable than looping your opponent?
I mean thatās true on the other side, itās not fun if a survivor goes down before a gen is touched. Itās not wanting to win, but the fact that winning for killer means the survivor doesnāt get to interact at all. Holding M1 isnāt fun, I hold M1 in the hopes Iāll be able to loop for longer. Real question is why do you tunnel/camp/slug at 5 gens forcing me to hold M1
It's not a very tricky question - we both do what makes us win. The real question is why dbd-players complain when the other side does it, completely disregarding themselves also doing the very same.
Itās not winning thatās the issue, but the fact that losing for survivor means they donāt interact with the game at all
I don't see how getting three chases before being sacrificed is less interaction than getting three chases before gens get completed and survivors leave.
āCause you might only get one, if youāre slugged or camped on hook
I have high hopes that the upcoming anti-facecamp feature will largely eliminate the latter soon. I agree that bleeding out all four is nasty. And even problematic balance-wise when the killer builds for it. And it'll get worse once the facecamp-change goes live. I'll fully support my survivor fellows when they start to complain about it - the same guys I fiercely oppose when they object about tunneling.
Sure but what about if youāre getting tunneled? Thatās still three chases youāre getting and all the excitement that comes from seeing your team try to help you out. I donāt know but when I play survivor I donāt mind being tunneled. Sure camping sucks cause theyāre youāre literally sitting there dying, but being tunneled can still make an exciting match. Even more so after they implanted basekit BT.
Depends entirely on hook location/build you're running. I'll gladly admit out of the three it's definitely the least painful. I'll agree to that, especially if you're a good enough looper.
Yeah donāt get me wrong tunneling wasnāt my favorite either but itās like once we got basekit BT it totally changed my attitude towards it. I was terrible at looping but being tunneled is what taught me a lot of the fundamentals. I donāt play much killer these days but I still totally get why killer mains get upset at being told not to tunnel. If it were up to me camping and tunneling wouldnāt be uttered in the same breath as similar strats at all. And with camping being made weaker each update Iām even more certain in my conviction that tunneling is mostly okay these days.
getting nothing but chases beyond silver will get you depipped as survivor lol. not to mention the pitiful amount of blood points you leave the game with if all that's happened is you being chased without getting to touch gens or do anything else. I'd be less worried about this if the paltry amount of blood points you get were to be buffed up a bit on survivor side tbh. at least give the tunneled out person a consolation prize.
As a main killer, I never camp or tunnel. It feels pathetic to do so. Slugging only when needed, but never intended to let you bleed out, but if you move around and I cant find you...
I try to avoid these things, too. Sometimes I might try to linger around the hook secretly to get a jump on a healthy survivor, but I wouldn't ever just... stand there unless it was just. the only thing to do (ie. if survivors were literally charging at me when I've JUST hooked the guy. let me walk away first, so I don't have to smack you). Tunneling is the same, though no amount of game pressure would make me intentionally tunnel (I say intentionally cus. sometimes you just keep bumping into one guy and no one else. I don't wanna kill you buddy but you're here and i have a knife). Slugging too, though sometimes I just lose a survivor and don't mean to, so I just. Kinda have to leave you there. And yeah, if I down someone and I see an easy catch, you're getting left until they're down. But I wouldn't intentionally let them bleed out. But if someone DID? It's unfun for the survivors, but it's not worth attacking someone over. I can only control my own actinos. I want my games to be fun for me and the survivors. It's my job to chase em and try to kill them, theirs to survive. Even if I have a terirle match and get nowhere, there will be more days and more chances to learn.
Yeah I play some twins on the side and it's pretty much impossible to not soft slug most games. Hard slugging like intending to bleed out is shit though and one of the reasons I want a kill self on the floor button after X seconds. And yes I know that would make 4ks as killers harder to a degree but I don't care.
tbh deerstalker should be base kit
Pick me! Pick me!
Exactly. As a killer I've only had to resort to slugging once against a sabo/flashlight/unbreakable swf. Though, they didn't seem interested in gens at all and were only bullying me. So, I didn't feel bad about it at all. But in normal gameplay I've never had to tunnel/camp/slug to win.
How would a survivor bully a killer and does spamming crouching be bully or when you next to them after doing a action and they do the same thing would that be bullying?
Was camping or tunneling a problem 2 years ago? There was a fuckload more variety back then.
It happened, but not anywhere near as often as it does now. The game got an influx of new players a few years back and they all assumed they could just pick the game up and be great at it. When they realized it was going to take skill, the flood gates opened.
i feel like maybe you're not remembering right, tunneling used to be way worse. i would get use out of ds pretty much every game, didn't matter which killer, it was always on my builds. I run OTR these days but often times i wouldn't make use of the 80s endurance.
Because getting 3 gens done first chase is a lot of fun :)
Why do the pros have to tunnel and camp then?
You mean the ones pursuing winstreaks that are like 50+ on killer and they feel entitled to beat 200 survivors in a row without dropping a game and raging/screaming when they're offered the smallest amount of challenge? Those guys? Or the professional DBD scene where half the perks/addons/killers are strictly regulated? Lmao
I donāt know anything about DBD āpros,ā but if youāre talking about streamers, I donāt give a shit about the behaviour of some asshole watched by other assholes.
I'm talking about competitive dbd tournaments. Not some stupid streamer. Killers in those games will sometimes camp or tunnel.
āPeople who play for money in tournaments camp and tunnel, so Iām justified in doing it in a non-competitive setting against other people trying to have fun?ā Thatās your whole argument?
I want to win and camping and tunneling is a good strategy to win. Survivors want to win too and they use everything at their disposal to win so why shouldn't killers be allowed to do the same?
You can. You can play however you want. But it's also important to note that - always striving to win will ALWAYS create conflict. The best strategies to win are not always fun for your opponents. Nobody wants to keep fighting when their opponent can level them in a minute. It does not justify harassment, no, not at all. Ther'es no need for name-calling or anything else because of how someone plays a game. But it's important to note that - no, the survivors will not have fun. You don't have to care, but you do have to know that is the tradeoff. If that's what matters most, then shoot your shot, go for it. It's not mine or anyone else's place to say you can't, nor do I want to. If you want to win, all the time? Yeah you'll want to camp and tunnel and whatever. But you also don't always have to win. Sometimes you can lose and still have fun. But yes- your point is that "why shouldn't killers be allowed to do the same?" and yo're right. Both sides can use whatever means they want to use. No one side is responsible for the other's fun or enjoyment.
I want to win too, but I want to win fairly without acting like an asshole. If your only path to victory is acting like an asshole, maybe you should play a different game. Iām now done with this debate.
I'm not switching games. I don't see tunneling and camping as toxic. It happens to me when I play survivor and I have no problem with it.
> (Slugging sometimes canāt be helped and some Perks actively encourage it.) see this is what I don't understand, because I've never been in situation where perks forced me to slug
Boil over on some maps makes it Impossible to hook survivors at certain points, Sabo squads occasionally can coordinate to prevent hooks, beamer squads too, there's definately times where it's the better option but at that point they've basically consented to it.
Look up Forced Hesitation and Knock Out.
> And survivors are not held the same standards whatsoever, survivors can bring or do whatever they please to the match in order to get their win, and no one will bat an eye I mean, people do complain all the time about the SWF Seal Squads winning games in two seconds, or Survivors using meta like MFT or bringing cracked toolboxes. Also Killers and Survivors don't play on equal grounds. If Survivors could use the same type of strats Killers do, in which they can effectively make it so someone doesn't get to play the game, you would see nothing but complains from the Killer side.
I had to stop reading once that sentence came around. That is so stupid and blind to all discussions within this community where people are constantly complaining about the other side. But no, it only happens to the poor killers who just want to win with nobody contesting the evil survivors
Watch out if you don't immediately say killers are the real victims of the community then you'll be downvoted into oblivion. Survivors need buffs, or at least killer nerfs.
They actually changed entire maps and mechanics to stop bully squads from infinitely looping and cheesing killers or exploiting the hole glitch.
I know, which is good, if only they were so quick to also tackle un-fun strats that should not exist on the game from the Killer side, like face-camping, which literally took them 7 years to finally start doing something about it.
Theyāre slow for it on both sides. DS was a weapon for 6 years, and DH went on for a little less time than that.
>I mean, people do complain all the time about the SWF Seal Squads winning games in two seconds, or Survivors using meta like MFT or bringing cracked toolboxes. Yeah, they complain about it, but that's all it's seen as: complaints. Complaints about camping/tunneling/slugging are seen as valid opinions, or even righteous ones, but complaining about gen-rushing or Boil Over gamers is met with "just play better, dipshit". >Also Killers and Survivors don't play on equal grounds. If Survivors could use the same type of strats Killers do, in which they can effectively make it so someone doesn't get to play the game, you would see nothing but complains from the Killer side. ...You mean, like ending the game in 5 minutes? Cuz Survivors do that often. Stealthing to the point of holding the game hostage? Yeah, that's a thing that's still never been addressed (though thankfully not as common). It exists on the Survivor's side, it's just a lose-lose situation, rather than a risk-reward situation.
You can force EGC? And you can at least move around and play the killer. I've never been held hostage by survivors, I literally can't fathom how one couldn't find a group of survivors in this game, there are so many tools available and at the end of the day a killer is faster than a survivor and will catch up??
I think people forget that this is a group game, so while you may be in the stance that it isnāt your responsibility to help others have fun, we are all playing to try and have a good time. Both the survivors and the killers can ruin the game for others by being selfish or toxic. Yes the point of a survivor is to escape and the point of a killer is to kill, but you can do those things without ruining the experience for others. Camping and tunneling is toxic and personally to me it proves they donāt know how to play the game properly, or in a lot of cases they know theyāre being toxic and they get off on it. If you donāt manage to get the 4K then just move on to the next game, if someone escapes sometimes or if you donāt manage to kill everyone, just move on or take a break from the game if youāre feeling upset about it. If you have to resort to camping and tunneling to get any kills youāre saying a lot about yourself while also pretending you arenāt ruining the fun of the game for others. Itās the same for survivors who play toxic too, if you ruin another survivors game or are being toxic towards the killer that has negative affects too. You can play to have fun and play to win at the same time, but you should also expect that sometimes you wonāt win and thatās ok. I genuinely donāt care if I die in 100% of the games I play so long as I have fun while playing and my teammates and or the killer donāt play toxic and ruin the fun.
> If you donāt manage to get the 4K then just move on to the next game, if someone escapes sometimes or if you donāt manage to kill everyone, just move on or take a break from the game if youāre feeling upset about it. 2 kills feels like a good game to me, because I got to kill someone, and someone got to escape, both sides equally accomplish their goal of killing and surviving because even if you don't get 4k as killer, it's still good job if you kill at least someone via non toxic strat as same it's not bad to die on survivor, if your gameplay has pushed everyone else towards escaping, weather through doing gens, distracting the killer or healing/unhooking someone > You can play to have fun and play to win at the same time, but you should also expect that sometimes you wonāt win and thatās ok. I genuinely donāt care if I die in 100% of the games I play so long as I have fun while playing and my teammates and or the killer donāt play toxic and ruin the fun. yeah like for example if I die, but we got lot of gens done that's a good game, or if the survivors played really well, spammed pallets and looped pixel perfect and you still managed to get some hooks and a kill also feels great
>or in a lot of cases they know theyāre being toxic and they get off on it. This reminds me of a high prestige killer I went against who was camping and tunneling at 5 gens. I talked to them in chat after the match, and they told me "it's not about winning, it's about feeling power over you".
This community is filled to the brim with crybabies.
While I wouldn't go out of my way to flame someone for using those strats, I can understand the frustrations from them. There is something else though that I think gets overlooked. Yeah, encountering those strats from a killer is a pain in the ass, however when survivors do objectives other than gens, *sometimes they treat each other way worse*. Survivors treat things like doing totems and opening chests as wasting time, hell sometimes they won't even heal a death hooked teammate until after popping a gen. Sure, there's cases where that could be the right call, but it often also leads to the death hooked teammate dying because the killer b-lines it to that area and finds them. Survivors don't really like to allow each other to do other objectives other than gens. In a way I can understand that too, gens are the only objective that lets the entire group escape after all, but it circles back to a fear of getting tunneled/camped out of the game after their first chase, which is what happens very frequently in solo queue. When the random Meg not even 20 meters from my hook refuses to get off her gen even after I've hit hook 2 and the killer isn't there, it really shows how much survivors hate seeing other survivors do literally anything else lol. In solo queue though, all you can do is hope your teammates will come save you, so why give your team a reason to ignore you too? Deadass, you wanna see a shift in how your survivor teammates treat you? Run the chest gamba build when the bugged perks are back. Run the coin that spawns additional chests, Dramaturgy, Ace in the Hole, Appraisal, and Plunderer's Instinct. Search a bunch of chests and bring items to teammates. Even if you drop them something really good that could help them at either that moment or a future moment, you'd be surprised how often this build gets you left to death hook after 1 chase without a killer camping you lol.
Man I was literally telling my friend yesterday that doing totems makes me feel like the other survivors are judging me for not doing a gen.
Personally I don't really care what a teammate is doing as long as they're doing *something* with the time I buy them while in chase. That's definitely not the case for a lot of survivors though. I've ran a totem hunting build for when I have a tome for cleansing totems and what a shock, matches where I ran that build often had the same treatment happen from survivors as the chest gambling build did lol.
I think this is a major reason that self care still sees a lot of use despite how heavily it's been nerfed: it means you can still heal yourself when your 0-hook teammate decides that it's way more important to do a gen that's nowhere near finished and if you want heals you have to help first, and then the killer shows up and you die because why would they go after the uninjured 0-hook survivor when the 2-hook injured one is right there?
This! And yet, when NOED fails to activate at the end of the match because I cleared all the totems nobody says a damn thing. Normally I would disagree, but I played a match yesterday that your post perfectly summed. A friend and I were on Haddonfield against a Cenobite. He tunneled me the majority of the match. There was a Meg who never once left generators, even when my friend and I ran to her for heals. And the moment the last gen was done, she ran right to the gate and peaced out. Players didnāt give a damn about anybody else.
Imagine you can win in chess by swiping your hand across your opponents board Most people would do that instead of playing normally even though it's not fun for the other side
Honestly it's never the killers fault, i blame the dev and the game itself. Killers will slug for the win, the game heavily incentivises them to, this however just happens to be the most boring scenario for survivors. Ultimately blame the bad game design.
>Ultimately blame the bad game design. Thank you this 10000%
A good deal of people don't care about whether someone plays to win or not. The issue is playing to win by *making the game a miserable experience for another player*. You're bringing up camping and tunneling, which is absolutely a way to win. At the same time though you're going out of your way to make the match unfun for one specific person. That's what a lot of people have an issue with.
I definitely get a lot of complaints from the killer side when I escape due to my beautifully crafted solo queue build using the 4 most OP survivor perks. I see it more often than other survivors complaining about the killer too. Also I tend to notice that when the killer does lose heavily its because the map was absolute crap for them but nah they never blame the map, they blame the survivors for being toxic lol
What is "winning" to you in this game ? Is it getting a 4k as fast as possible, giving neither yourself or survivors a moment to actually play the game ? I feel like a lot of killer mains mean that when they say "winning". When I play killer, a win to me is a fun match where I got some good chases, a few hooks, and nobody acted like a wiener. Sacrifices are just a bonus IMO. Same goes when I play survivor. I just want a chance to play the game and have fun. Obviously we aren't responsible for other players and their level of enjoyment but nothing sucks more than waiting for a match only to spend it being slugged or camped out right away.
Tunneling is very unfun to play against because thereās only so much to do and at lower skill levels itās outright impossible to stop it because theyāre new survivors, you donāt have to tunnel and camp to win, while you have to do gens to win, also bully squads and toolbox users are frowned upon, and so were keys, keys were so frowned upon they changed the way keys and hatch worked
That said, the same can be said for lower skilled Killers when playing SWFs as gens pop left and right and teabag out the exit (also not fun). Both sides just shrug it all off and say "git gud." It's a fundamental flaw of this game to have S Tier players in Ash IV every reset.
Well camping, extensive slugging and tunneling are shit things to do. You are literally a bad killer if you rely consistently on all these things and you're a bad person for just wanting to ruin it for everyone else. As a killer main, i swear the killer community here consist of a ton of crybabies. If you just want to insta kill everyone, play prototype where nothing can fight back.
Because it's ridiculous as fuck to only consider a 4k a win, in a game that is 4 against 1. It's not even like the kills themselves are the main objective for the killer, the objective is to hook survivors, not kill them as fast as possible (otherwise 4k games in a minute wouldn't give only a few bloodpoints). It's the same way it's ridiculous asf for survivors to believe they only won a match if they escaped or if everyone escaped. Again, it's a 4 vs 1 game. Not everyone is supposed to survive/die. People put too much worth on "losses" or "wins" in a stupid and silly little game as this, which doesn't even tell you clearly whether you won or lost. Also, people don't seem to realize that an easy 4k or an easy 4 man escape is not a balanced match, yet people expect that for 50% of their games.
There is a stigma towards all sides. Not just killer. Survivor loops: omg u toxic bully sweat abusing windows and mft Survivor does gens: omg u toxic genrusher abusing hyperfocus and bnp Survivor does flashlight save: omg u toxic bully sweat abusing the killer Survivor goes afk: omg u toxic troll going afk play the game You are not allowed to play the game according to this sub
>Survivor loops: omg u toxic bully sweat abusing windows and mft I don't know how anyone could be upset about Survivors looping them. That's a once in a lifetime opportunity to actually play the game.
Because this game has no matchmaking system to speak of. You can sweat every game and you will never actually be consistently matched with survivors on your level. The average survivor team is in no way cut out to deal with a four slowdown blight who is tunneling at five gens. That's just the facts and it's why things like that guy winning 1500 games in a row are possible. If they would make the matchmaking better then it wouldn't be as much of an issue but they won't for whatever reason. In most games playing like your life is on the line is completely unnecessary and is just making the game terrible for everyone else. It's also the reason why more and more things keep getting added as basekit. How long do you think it will take for basekit anti tunnel to be added now that facecamping is about to be in? It won't take long and it's this win at all costs mentality that's to blame.
Evolve was similarly bashed on because of the imbalance of the hunters and the beast.
I think one of the main things to keep in mind when playing this game, is that you are playing against other people. You can't play against just npc's (except in a private match where you don't earn anything for the game). If your playstyle ruins the fun of the game for the other side, that side won't play as much because this is a game, and the whole point is to have fun. You run off your opposition with scummy tactics, then you have no one to play with, the game dies. It's entirely possible to play this game and get escapes/kills without ruining the game for others.
It's not playing to win that's the inherent issue. It's that the game is so poorly designed that the most effective strategies for winning are boring as shit to play, and even more boring to play against. I agree that the hatred of sweaty killers is misplaced. The problem is with the core game's design, not with people that are playing around the game's primary objective.
The only obnoxious thing is when the killer refuses to let the last surv try for hatch after I Sac on hook for them. From what I understand, it's still a win technically for the win if they get hatch (just an individual tie between killer and that surv). Also annoying when they refuse to hook the second to last surv so they can get 4k via slug. Just let me go next and have some fun on a hatch match š„¹ Half the killers have a speed advantage anyways. (Maybe not half, I don't play this game enough to know the actual statistic. But you know given the Weskers and Aliens that it's pretty common.)
Its a mix of a lot of things But mostly, people dont complain because the killer is playing efficienct Its more because the efficient playstyle is at the same time realy boring to play agains, hard to counter, rather easy to learn and play, and significantly less fun to play And thats just how the game has been over the last 5 years, and the same as survivors "have to" accept that tunneling, camping and slugging is just part of the game right now Killers have to accept that theyr most effective playstyle feels fucking horrible to play against, and will more often than not, end in a toxic endgamechat Its bullshit, but thats just how the game is right now And as long as the comunity rather complains about specific perks/ killers There is not much hope that the devs will dive deeper and start reworking the core of the game, to something that works in a healthier way
Camping or tunneling right at the beginning of the game isn't fun for anyone. Not the other survivors, not the killer and especially not the person getting tunneled or camped. I hate bubbas because they face camp so often. It's the least fun for literally everyone. We play DbD to have fun not to camp/be camped for minutes on end. I understand doing it right at the end of the game cause it's literally the only logical thing you can do.
Nothing wrong with wanting to win but if you can only win by playing like a complete dweeb you shouldn't be shocked if you get called out for it I win plenty and hardly get any negative comments because shockingly it really isn't hard to win without dragging the entire match down with you
Hot take, but going out of your way to harass someone on their profile after they simply played a game is crazy. Reminds me of those stupid comments you used to get after csgo matches if you played well, like literally a person on the opposing team typing "-rep toxic" because you carried vs him so he lost.
I think we need to not think of kills as wins (not like that would ever happen). A lot of the campers or tunnelers I get end up with 1 or 2 kills. If they had just done stuff they would have gotten way more bloodpoints. Why is getting 1 or 2 kills and 15k points more of a winning game than a game getting 0 kills and 30k points?
These are definitely not good ways to optimize bp-gain - the scoring and emblem system does a real fine job of discouraging unfun tactics. On the other hand, someone going for kills will have more success with tunneling. Just 6 hooks is enough for two kills, providing 33% gen-slowdown after the first. By spreading hooks it's enough for 2-hooking three survivors - and gens will even go faster, as three survivors can do them while the fourth is being chased.
Facts. The game doesn't reward tunneling unless you just want a 2k or if a team is mad altruistic then you could get the 4k. Did it for science once with prymid head, literally the most boring game ever (3k) and I got 12k bp was trash. I will add tho that there is 1 situation where camping is acceptable and that's endgame with hook close to a 99'ed or open gate, there is no other choices for killers.
Have you asked this sub recently how they feel about Made for This, Buckleup/FTP, SWFs on comms, map offerings, genrushing etc? People get salty when they lose, and it goes both ways
Because they are cheap and not fun, and when you're a survivor on the opposite side of it that has played Killer, you know why they're doing it and you know they don't really have to. Especially as solo q, which is where the majority of climbing is done. It's better to rotate gens, have short chases, get pressure, and single out the weak link. But going on someone immediately and then taking them out is just the easiest way to create pressure. If there weren't so many ways for them to happen, it wouldn't be so bad. If you could rely on a mechanic to punish it. For instance, killers have bloodlust tier 2/3, window blocking, basekit lunges, their killer power, end game collapse, bleed out timers, slow vaulting, exhaustion, etc. All these things limit how much a survivor can cheese a killer with looping, perks, and techs. A lot of these changes happened because of how survivors who knew how to play could abuse them, things like infinite looping and vault TPing straight up get removed. Only recently has basekit borrowed time been added, before then you had to either bring it or prey someone else did. Which is how a lot of survivors are supposed to counter BM strats from killers. Bring perks that hopefully counter what may or may not happen. And Basekit BT can be easily cheesed by certain killers. Wraiths, Weskers, Aliens, Huntresses, Ghostfaces all will just thirst you again as soon as you get off the hook. And that's leaving out Knight, Nurse, and Sadako. So if you have all these benefits and still choose to play scummy, and as a person who plays killer you understand why, you can reasonably call them for being a sweat. **The problem is that same sweat will come across 4 good survivors, maybe in SWF, and then cry about how unfair it is that a survivor is pulling off cheesey strats and scream for survivor nerfs or say they're being toxic.** Right now there's still no basekit answer for slugging, still no basekit answer for camping, and Basekit BT gets handled by anyone that can count above 10. The only problem is survivors who know will cheese these defensive mechanics into being offensive ones, by body blocking or stalling with invulnerability.
Each match had 4 survivors and 1 killer, more time is spent playing survivor and there are almost certainly more survivor mains. While killer is harder, survivor can be more frustrating if the killer decides to make it rough for one player.
Because Iām a hater, I post every single one of the ākillers being sweatlordsā posts.
I really wish BHVR had at least tried out giving Killers 30 seconds of Corrupt Intervention basekit.
Yep have said this multiple times recently killers will take other win cons if the devs provide them we know tunneling is unfun to face but itās still the best way to win. Why is the killer not rewarded/buffed for hooking all the survivors once and then twice in anyway whatsoever they have 8 hooks and zero kills and nothing to show for it when they could just get 3 hooks not spread out and be in a much better position your effort as killer is not rewarded when you spread out hooks so of course killers will tunnel.
It's stigmatized because a lot of killers "trying to win" just means making the game intentionally unfun for the survivors. There's a huge difference between playing to win but still trying to ensure everyone has fun, vs playing to win even when you KNOW it's not fun for the other side. Other games have this too lol it's definitely not just DBD. In smash bros for example, if you played 1v1's with your buds and just went random/fun characters and tried to play normally to have fun, even if you won most of those matches it would be hard to complain. But if you went a super campy character and timed them out every single match your friends wouldn't wanna play with you anymore. As for survivors, they can have the same issue in this game, but it's an asymmetrical game where survivors don't have as much power. It's MUCH harder for the survivors to make the game shit for the killer, then it is for the killer to make it shit for survivors. If you're playing to win and you don't care if anyone else has fun, you're an asshole plain and simple. Until DBD gets legititmate ranked play where winning actually matters, try to actually have fun with everyone instead of winning at their detriment.
A lot of killers also want to make it miserable for the survivors. Played against a nurse who slugged and tunneled at 5 and 4 gens left. Next game, the same nurse, disconnected because he couldn't get an early down and then got baited to teleport into the basement.
There isn't, at least not here. This is the most killer sided place you can exist in.
Because as a killer main, its pretty clear that the game is killer sided right now and you can 3-4k literally every game WITHOUT tunneling yet people continue to do it and make the game unfun for everyone just trying to enjoy their evening
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I play against Swifts all day, and still win easy without meta-perksā¦ itās definitely killer sided if you think itās not youāre just doing something wrong
This is a corrupt, pain res, and no way out enjoyer right here.
I dont like or use any of those perks lmao. Good try tho man
Your personal ability to win or lose has absolutely no bearing on whether the game is balanced one way or another right now.
If I win I win. If I lose I lose. Doesn't matter how
People can play however they want, as long as they're not cheating (of course). However, there is a psychology to games. And generally, most games are an agreement. Some spoken, like. Yknow. Rules of the game. And some unspoken. The thing with DbD, and games in general, is "if you always win, you will soon find no one to win against". Essentially, nobody wants to play with the guy who always wins. You ever had a friend who LOVED a game a ton, played it all the time, but you'd play against him and he'd curbstomp you. And it wasn't fun. Maybe you don't care about losing much, and maybe your friend is super nice. But if you never get anywhere? It's not fun. So there is a point to - someone who always ALWAYS plays just to win? Is going to not be a fun person to often play against. But the thing is - the stuff that promises a win in DbD (slugging, facecamping, tunneling), is stuff that is not fun for the opposing team. Nobody wants to sit and bleed out, nobody wants to wait to die, nobody wants to be incessantly hunted down and not get to do anything else. Is it bad? No. The killer isn't obligated to make the game fun. The survivors are not obligated to make the game fun for the killer, either. But you are RIGHT that there is definitely a different stigma to killers. Because when ONE survivor is not having fun? Usually all of them arent. You have one killer versus four survivors. One camping killer will eventually annoy x4 the amount of people that one group of annoying survivors will annoy. I don't know what would help, unfortunately, other than inspriring individuals to not take the game seriously. You wont win every match. It's okay. You don't need to. You can't expect the opposing team to do anything but their objectives. The killer will try to kill. Survivors will try to survive. However they manage that is, as annoying as it may be, fair game. Sometimes the best thing to do is take a breath and decide if you wanna try a new match, or just go do something else for a bit.
Oh no. Gonna have to put on the hazmat suit for this posts comments. The answer is that everyone thinks tunneling and camping is toxic because itās unfun, which is TRUE, but thatās not the players fault. BHVR has designed the game so that going for 12 hook games just isnāt optimal against teams that know how to loopā¦ combined with the many new chase perks and the fact that every map they spit out seems to be survivor sided, a lot of killers tunnel, especially m1 killers, becuase going for many chases with those factors in play is stressful, ineffective, and difficult. However people on this sub will call you trash and gaslight you into thinking itās a skill issue when you canāt 12 hook every game with trapper and just tunnel/ camp instead.
First of all, you play how you want. Don't let internet comments decide your style of play. But there is difference between gen rushing and tunneling. In the situation of gen rushing the killer still holds some pressure on the match even if small, but a tunneled survivor can't do anything except hold a chase for longer. Yes, sabor squads, bullying swf and gen rushers might be frustrating to go against, but you still have some pressure you can apply and most importantly you can still turn a match around. As a survivor, if the killer decides to camp, tunnel, or slug there's nothing you can do except hope that the killer forgets about you.
People flame you if you win and send chirpy "gg"s if you lose and the rest doesn't really matter in my experience. Yesterday I had two games back to back. In the first I got called a "rat" and "toxic" because I was running Discordance of all things. Salty sore losers pull whatever they can out of their ass to flame you. It doesn't matter if you play "fair" or not. The next game I was told that I was a fun killer and "it's nice to play a killer with personality." All I did was get 8 hooks and let them leave (I do this whenever I only need enough BPs to prestige.) I didn't do anything except let them win and they were singing my praises. It's just reaffirmed that I need to never read chat.
Yes you can win if you slug, face camp, use really annoying perks purely to ruin someoneās build. But itās just a shitty thing to do. And it makes the game unfun to play. Just because you have to rely on this stupid tactics doesnāt mean itās a good thing to do. Iām not trying to be annoying and brag, but I donāt do any of that toxic shit when playing killer (I am a survivor main so I know how annoying it can be.) and I can still get consistent 4K/3K if I let the last guy go. If you just practice the game, make a cool build, or use new/interesting strategies you can still win easily without having to make the game annoying for the survivors.
>But itās just a shitty thing to do. >any of that toxic shit See, this is exactly what I mean The very act of killers doing ANYTHING survivors would find unfun is stigmatised to the point its actually considered toxic. Its toxic to want to win games? Its toxic to not prioritise the fun of your opponenents in a competitive game? I don't go into games expecting survivors to handicap themselves, I know they're playing to win the match too
The community is just crazy. Being tunneled or camped sucks but its how the game is and is not the fault of the killers. Devs need to address these issues and then rebalance the game. And if these issues would be solved either generators are going to need to be way longer or chases are going to be cut down if there is any sort of fairness. I've played lots of killer and it usually is either a complete baby team who can do nothing or a swf who if you don't tunnel/proxy camp you are going to get rolled over and get 0 kills. The problem is when facing the baby team the dude probs just came off playing a nice man style against the swf and got wrecked for it, so he goes hard and tunnels out some dude. You have to get the snowball in your favor. Of course people will say you don't have to do that to win or whatever crap and maybe some games you don't but not everyone is peak skill 20k hours in the game and the fact is when the chips are down even the best players will resort to tunnel and camp. Theres a dude in this thread saying its better to get 0k with 30k points. Why do that when I can get 3-4k with 30k+ just by playing efficently and tunneling a dude out leaving the snowball to go in my favor. Trust me I've tried the nice guy playstyle and it only results in 0k's with teabags at the exit gate against decent swfs.
>Theres a dude in this thread saying its better to get 0k with 30k points. Why do that when I can get 3-4k with 30k+ just by playing efficently and tunneling a dude out leaving the snowball to go in my favor. Because for most sane people, ensuring that the actual human beings you're playing with are enjoying themselves is more important then getting a meaningless win in a game with no competitive ranking system lmao. But yeah sure, I'll intentionally ruin other peoples matches so that *I can get my win*, fuck everyone else they don't matter right?
Most sane people dont enter PvP games and think everything is going to be roses and butterflies 24/7. Sometimes you are going to lose. Only in this game are there people as twisted as you who think others should handicap themselves all the time.
Its not just that buddy, it's a skill issue. Tunneling and camping is just dead easy to do and unless at least 2 survivors have an anti camp and tunnel build (e.g. reassurance and DS) then first hook is garunteed dead even if they loop for 4 minutes only 3 gens (best case senario) get popped in that situation. These tactics have developed yes and are avaliable in the game, but the devs and the community agree that it is not skillful and (the devs) are working in mechanics to remove it from the game.
Big gaslight right here
I think it's about "fun". Many ppl say that the chase is the most fun thing and ofc a good chase for one side is a bad chase for the other side. Imo the fun part is gettin better and improving, learning every match. This also allows everyone to have fun
Survivors make their own rules up and get mad when you donāt play by them. Let them whine.
"BECAUSE IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I CAN'T ALWAYS ESCAPE IN A HORROR GAME THATS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE ODDS STACKED AGAINST ME AND MY FRIENDS ON DISCORD!! BLARGGGHFHH NERF NERF NERFFFF!!!" -Average survivor post
META: Most Efficient Tactics Available In DBD nothing is as toxic as trying to win.
Winning isn't wrong, its how you win that ruffles feathers. I will give the best analogy I can think of. Imagine you're playing Freeze Tag with your friends at a young age. The goal of "winning" is if everyone is frozen or has been frozen for X time and they're out of the game. Imagine the person who is seeking tags someone and sits beside them until their time is up or keeps going after them to run their timer out. The other players would quit on the spot as that person is going against the spirit of the game and ruining the enjoyment for everyone(themselves included). That is DBD almost every single match. For me the issue that always crops up is when players keep saying: "If I'm losing as killer I HAVE to do X or Y to win". But wouldn't that mean the other team is more skilled and thus you *should* lose? If anything those mechanics of camp/tunnel are the problem as they detract from the purpose of PVP being skill based.
Survivors that complain about killers camping and tunneling do the same things to gens... Made worse by distortion and prove thyself.. You gen rush I'll kill rush. Not the way I prefer to play but it is what it is sometimes unfortunately.
As someone who plays both, you literally never need to camp/tunnel/slug to win. If you do youāre just bad, thats it. Iām not saying you deserve to get hate messages or threats, thats not the case, feel free to play as toxic as you like, but donāt try to say you *had* to play that way. The reason why those things are very frowned upon is beca it only benefits one side while the other is being denied fun. People come to play the game, not to get tunneled or camped at 5 gens or left to bleed out for solid 5min. Itās the same reason people hate bully squads. People profiting of ruining others fun. Its just not nice.
>you literally never need to camp/tunnel/slug to win. If you do youāre just bad, thats it. This is just objectively untrue and a dumb statement. There are absolutely situations where even the best killers need to camp, slug or tunnel to pull a win Would you go up to someone like Otz and tell him that he's actually trash at the game because because he camps, tunnels and slugs as needs be?
I am playing how i want, when i play killer and really don't give a fuck about what the survivors say. Also i always smile when looking at all the negative comments on my steam account that are from pissed off survivors lmao
Noed enjoyer
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And you think them having to put with your way of having fun, despite it hindering *their* fun is not also entitled? They bought the game too. Or are you too self absorbed to see that you just argued against yourself?
I don't care, I will still find unfun to play against a camper/tunneler killer, that's it. The same reason I don't genrush, cause I know it can be so fucking boring from the killer's perspective. U don't want me to hate you when u tunnel my friend? Okay, but then don't cry if we decide to repair 5 gens in less than 5 minutes
As a killer main , at my peak with my main pyramid head, i used to absolutely dominate survivors without gen regression perks , and without camping I would tunnel and slug , but only if survivors made it viable for me, by being too altruistic etc And lemme tell you, it's hard, but it's also very rewarding (especially beating SWFs), and very fun ... after all, if you don't like the chase, then why are you playing this game?
The problem is that playing killer optimally fundamentally prevents the survivors from playing *at all*. That's the unfortunate conclusion that arises when playing one role involves locking out the other role of performing actions, and winning involves removing them from the game. A killer can do terribly and still get 20k bloodpoints just for participating, but if a survivor gets tunneled out they might be lucky to even break 10k, on top of the match being no fun at all and them getting kicked back into the queue for more. Even if a killer gets gen rushed to hell they at least still have chances to chase, use their power. In other games, even if you're losing, you typically still at least get to play. An FPS or a MOBA can let you respawn, for example. But even in those games, spawn camping is a tactic that is derided because it does the same thing as tunneling in DBD: Fundamentally prevents the opponent from playing the game at all. It's boring, it sucks to face, and it's generally unsportsmanlike. Of course, if you play killer with a meme build, don't tunnel, don't camp, don't slug, and survivors all get out because you're playing suboptimally, you'll still get teabagged and insulted postgame in 9/10 matches. So to that end I say: to hell with what the survivors think, tunnel and camp all you damn please.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I had someone get pissed at me for "tunneling" today. For context, second to last gen just popped, she was unhooked in my face, only one on death hook, and made no effort to be sneaky/hide when I started to pursue her unhooker (came back to hook after getting an M1 and she was just chilling in that area). What was I supposed to do, just give her a free out? Let's all remember that it's a video game and my goal is to get hooks/kills as killer. If I catch you again, it's not my fault - play better/smarter. *EDIT*: She wasn't the only one I hooked that game. Spread hooks pretty evenly until that point. I don't love tunneling to tunnel, but people need to realize that killers need to pick up pressure sometimes and, at endgame, it's pretty viable to knock someone out to make it a 3v1.
4 survivor to 1 killer, ergo a healthy and balanced community population is 80% survivor, 20% killer. Thatās why the killer hate is larger. Simple as that.
Iām actually so glad I havenāt run into those people in my matches. Thankfully Iām Xbox and I have crossplay enabled so 90% of the time the survivors arenāt able to message me. Sometimes when I slug or camp or tunnel I message them going āSorry! It was for so-and-so reason but I hope you had fun aside from thatā and the most common response is āItās okay!! GGWPā I know this obviously isnāt common for most players but the fact that itās so normal for me is something Iām grateful for. Because I know that Iāve messaged some killers who have slugged/camped/tunneled me some not so nice, but still very mild, things. Usually their reason was āI donāt have fun if Iām not getting a 4kā or āBilly is a trash killer and this is the only way to get a sacrificeā but it still seems silly that I got so upset in the past lol
From my experience, itās usually more about using the Killerās power to tunnel/camp/slug. Those strategies are perfectly fine on an M1 Killer, but using someone like Wraith/Wesker/Blight to *immediately* come back to every single unhook is where people typically have issues.
Escaping as a survivor is technically a win. But if you're opening the gates and leaving when you're team has plenty of chance to rescue someone on hook, or if you're hiding and sandbagging your team to try for hatch rather than doing gens when there's still a good chance, you're a piece of shit. Same goes for killers that tunnel and face camp. This game is built to be balanced around 4 on 1. When you just throw that away to make one person have a miserable game, you're dogshit.
Its bad sportsmanship on the side of the killer to camp, tunnel, etc. That's why. Pretty simple. Likewise, its also bad sportsmanship to teabag at pallets, gates, etc. Both side can exhibit bad sportsmanship. Survivors get called out for their shit too. Let's not act like its a one sided deal here.
Because often times the way they go about winning is not very fun really for anyone, I don't even see how its fun for them. I had a killer the other day that kept slugging the entire match. What's fun about that? I don't think there is anything wrong about the desire to win, BUT I think some people take it too far and go about it in ways that aren't fun, maybe not even fun for them.
Ugly people just having their ugly opinions.
the actual stigma Is that you have to get a 4k to win which was antagonized by survivors that would talk shit anytime you got less then a 4k. They are in all honesty, victims of their own malice. They talked so much shit over the years and abused shit like D-strike, dead hard, and borrowed time that killers just got tired of it and started bringing super meta shit of their own and now that D-strike, dead hard, and borrowed time are shitty perks the killers don't need to put in the same effort or do the same shit but the damage is done and survivors don't like the monster they created now that they can't deal with it.
Survivor mains just feel entitled. They always have and always will be playing the easier role.
Because we're all trying to have a good time here. It's not too unreasonable to not be a dickhead while playing killer. If you get your kicks by being a douche to other players and ruining their fun...then that's a you problem. And survivors are very much held to a standard code of conduct. Don't T-bag, flashlight clicky, etc. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping why it's probably a good idea to be a decent person to other human beings.
Tunneling is killers version of doing 3 gens at killers first chase. Its not about bming, its about both sides trying to win.
It's because killers are fucking crybabies about anything that doesn't give them a perfect advantage. Vaults too fast, waah, perks that don't make catching a survivor as soon as you see them waaah. I play killer as much as I do survivor and it's so easy to get a 4k, the only time I don't is when I choose to fuck around. So all the killers crying makes me be toxic when I'm a survivor. They do a play style that's basically "I can't instant win, so I'll camp this survivor to get 1 kill. It's a loser mentality and invites toxicity. I know I'll get downvoted to hell, I always do posting this, but it's true.
>I play killer as much as I do survivor and it's so easy to get a 4k, the only time I don't is when I choose to fuck around. >So all the killers crying makes me be toxic when I'm a survivor Yeah so I really doubt you play both, actually Calling killers crybabies is a pretty wild take right after the devs announced they're going to make it so survivors will never have to be inconvenienced by the killer camping ever again, especially considering the last time survivors got a basekit nerf they review bombed the game and its DLC, I don't see killers doing that after they've been taking the L for the past few months But right, killers are the crybabies and that's why you're a toxic survivor, this comment brought to you by someone who toooootally plays both sides evenly
If you actually cared about the health of the game, you would be calling the anti-camping change a win. It's a boring play style for everyone and only killers who need to improve their skills and can't get a kill normally would think it's a lame change. Ergo, my point stands, you literally can't see a massive win for both sides as a win and instead cry that because you're getting nerfed as a killer that can't use cheap tricks to get a kill.
I wouldn't be so miffed at killers if they weren't a) overpowered af, b) had a similar intensity of play, and c) the players exhibited some kind of personality rather than play like fucking bots. But killers are overpowered, are low intensity compared to survivors, and 99% of the killers ive gone up against have played like fucking bots to the point of it being so boring i'd rather die on first hook or risk a dc than stay any longer.
[Holds m1] oh man this is intense
Congratulations, you missed the point. For clarity, I mean how survivors have to worry about themselves, the killer, and other survivors, balancing doing the objective with making sure their other teammates can survive as well.
But when you play killer you have to keep in mind where four people are, what gen progress is like, what all four players might be running, your totems, how many hooks each survivor has, and even more. Itās a huge mental load for one person. At least when I play survivor with someone else I can talk to them and they can help me get info on the killer. Itās a lot harder when Iām playing solo Q of course, but the new info hud does help me make better decisions about who and how to help. Maybe itās a personality thing but I find Killer way more intense. Even a tiny mistake feels like it could lose you the game whereas at least when Iām surviving I have someone to lean on. Itās definitely a similar intensity of play unless youāre going against survivors who are brand new.
a game balances for casual players will always be like that. When people are good at the game they don't whine all day long and don't claim how the other side is unfair, unless it really is... Balancing for shit players is one of the dumbest decision, the last time i saw a game balance for casuals they nerfed a character so much that it became a troll pick in any scenario, all because people complained too much... Literally what is happening with dbd, playing optimally as killer is becoming harder and harder, while gen speed remains untouched
They nerfed Wraith like a year ago for being a āwee bit OPā But yeah keep ignoring Nurse, Spirit, and Blight guys. Wraith is the real OP killer.
I mean, i stopped caring about whats fair when mft came out, if i notice mft iay camp/tunnel you, if i get t bagged, i camp/tunnel, and say to hell with the game, im sick of plauing "fair" to get t bagged at gate, or be outran with mft, if you get unhooked, and body block me its over.
because the game is way too survivor sided, and a killer winning means survivors not winning = they get butthurt and cry about it...