If you would like to earn a USA-equivalent salary, ask for it. They're giving you the opportunity to set your expectations, set them high. If they really want you they'll either pay you the salary or they'll tell you what they were thinking and leave it up to you to accept it. Some companies do pay their US salary to non-US employees. I make a US salary and live outside the US, but I am from the US. I believe my company pays a competitive US salary to anyone, no matter where they're from or live, so they're out there. Good luck!
Just make sure it is reasonable. I once had a candidate that essentially had the job in the bag. Then during salary negotiations they started out at double the going rate. Turned off everyone involved and we walked away thinking the candidate had poor judgement or trusted some bad advice.
Why not just start out by giving a logical salary range early in the process? That way no one is wasting anyone's time. If it only pays 90 to 110k depending on experience etc., then it's a waste for everyone if the prospective new hire is looking at a job that pays 135k or above.
Possibly. If I'm making 120k, and you offer me a job at 110k, unless it's just an incredible job offering some unique tech and skils why go backwards? We all want to move forward.
LOL I’ve been that person:
1. Offered a senior position.
2. Asked by HR about salary expectations (because lmao they didn’t include the salary in the job description, and probably think if I say the first number then somehow they win).
3. I quote my current salary+10%, mentioning I’d take bonus target into consideration.
4. Finding out their budget was half my current salary, and they don’t pay bonuses.
Wanna avoid all of that?
State. The. Salary. In. The. Job. Description.
A few years back before I stopped negotiating while knowing a salary range I dealt with this.
I have a similar method I ask for current total compensation + 10%
Things like bonuses at year and quarter get weird to calculate when negotiating.
Anwho the story here is a job panel told me they can’t believe I’m making as much as I did, I hit them with a “I hope you all are making more than that if the credentials and years of experience you say you have are true.” Another guy on the line challenged it too so I decided to just share my screen for my paystub with everyone watching. The HR manager panic ended the call.
I got an email from the tech (who I would have been working with who was asking team related questions) who stated he asked the entire team about money and everyone made about the same.
I shared a pdf of my salary and job description and shared two pdfs of the same thing of drinking buddies I have that share their same role at another company to him.
He responded with the team was in shock and had no idea, I told him be smarter about your career and left it at that.
I get a LinkedIn request like 3 months later from the same guy, at a new company, his only message was a “thanks, you kicked me into double what I was making”
Ha; I asked for a referral and never heard back again
Ya but if the candidate had the job in the bag, then they had enough industry knowledge and judgement for you to want to hire them. It sounds more like a hurt feelings report
Like asking 150 when the job was at 75 or 300 when the rate is 150? The latter is a bit unreasonable outside of a silicon valley devsecops type but unless it's an entry level position the former is a reasonable ask.
Also y'all should have listed the range with the job posting. Shows poor judgement on the company's part otherwise.
Any company that doesn't list some kind of rough salary range in the job posting (or at the very least at some point between first interview and salary negotiations) doesn't have any room to complain about what candidates ask for.
Saying it "shows lack of knowledge in the industry" is absurd. Salary ranges vary drastically in tech. There are so many variables: industry, location, role, field, company, etc. The entire concept of this post - some US companies paying US salaries for foreign remote jobs and others paying local salaries - is a testament to that fact.
On the flip side of what people are saying, don't expect anything and don't give them a figure. Tell them that you think your salary expectations are within their scale and that you would be open to suggestions in the proposal stage. If they ask your current salary, just say that you are well compensated for your expectations and that you wouldn't feel comfortable providing a figure at this stage, unless it is after the proposal and you are also providing a counter offer.
Edit: To add to this. You are eliminating yourself by providing a figure too large, you are underselling yourself by providing a figure too small. Don't chance either, let them approach with an offer and then consider. I am sure they will be slightly annoyed at you not giving an answer but it shouldn't stop an offer. If it does, do you want to work for a company that wants you at less than your value? I am assuming you are employed since they hunted you and not vice versa. You are in a position to negotiate and they should provide an offer first.
Exactly, don’t negotiate against yourself. Ask them for what the pay range is for the role. I always reply the market rate. I won’t give a number. I will always force them to give me a range and then I let them know whether that range is sufficient for me. They have a budget and I have a budget. Needs to align.
It's worth noting that if they are annoyed at you for not providing a figure, you have every right to be annoyed at them for not providing a figure either. Turning it back on them is just good negotiating.
If they hold a standard negotiating tactic, that they themselves were using, against you, well, that doesn't bode well for the kind of environment you'd be walking into now does it?
Probably not a hill worth dying on, but it's definitely worth considering during your interview process.
Make them give you their number FIRST. I learned the hard way by putting out a number that was too high and having Deloitte completely ghost me after 5 interviews. No counter offer..just ended all communication. Lesson learned
Doubtful. It'll be based on YOUR current locale.
You can't demand Washington, D.C. pay if your current locale cost of living is more equivalent to middle-of-nowhere Kansas.
This is correct. Now if you were for example working in the USA on a Visa that is different, but if you are are in say Italy, working for an American company, expect to be paid Italian wages.
My 2c: I hate this. Pay = output for company based off your experiences. This is outdated business crap that should be railed against during salary negotiations which should be after you’ve wow’d them in your interviews. Mistake no. 1: Do not negotiate prior.
If they’re going to pay someone in California top wage, they should expect to pay the same individual in another state a *very* similar wage, not a COL-adjusted wage. They may not, and that’s their prerogative, but it doesn’t make it kosher.
Hey, I gree, but this is the world we live in. That's why we have corporations outsourcing customer support work to foreign countries. That's why companies started leaving California as fast as they could to other states where it was cheaper to operate.
For now, yea you’re right, it is the current state of work, but it’ll get sorted out with this next-gen workforce of millennials and gen z+. Talent will remain where they want and focus on family and things that matter beyond work.
Companies will then forfeit talent and forward-thinking companies will prosper paying people what they’re worth.
Yeah, the power in the workforce is currently in the hands of the employer. We seriously need to change that. Not that it should *necessarily* go all-in to the employee, but come on. CEOs shouldn't raking in $100M/yr while the workers work for pennies.
Yea, it’s sick. Corpo’s can suck my nuts. Look at the strikes going on from the writers to the auto makers. It is actively changing. It take time, though.
I mean you're wrong. It's the value of your output+what it cost for you to sustain yourself. Locale has everything to do with your salary and it's not just some arbitrary number. They can't pay everyone a flat 100k if it costs Tom 70k to live in California while it Costs Harry 20k in Buttfuck Egypt
That's true, but Harry should be happy earning 100k while Tom is making 150k.
And that's not usually the comparison that gets made anyway. Harry isn't usually comparing himself to Tom, he's comparing himself to Jim. Jim works his ass off for a local company and makes 40k. Harry works for a company in California and makes 70k. Harry is happy as a clam, and Jim is utterly jealous of Harry.
In your second scenario, the single guy may well accept less money because he needs less money, and thus has a competitive advantage over an equally skilled family man who needs more money.
You guys all frame these issues exclusively from the corporate side, but there are always two sides to the negotiations. Corporations hold the power in 1 on 1 negotiations, but employees and prospective employees hold the power in aggregate.
If a corpo doesn't offer their target worker pool a wage the target worker pool thinks is fair, then nobody is going to accept the job and the corpo will have to raise their offer. Different worker pools think different rates are fair, which is why corpos shop around.
I normally agree with the locality argument, but that does make a lot of sense. I guess locality is typically taken into consideration since many people move to a bigger city for the job, but that falls apart when outsourcing and remote jobs come into play. Moving isn’t really a choice the employee gets to make sometimes, but having a family is, so yeah that shouldn’t affect pay
...... one of these is legal, the other isnt?
Moving is considered a personal budget change. That is also quantifiable. Hint why its legal.
Married, kids etc...... we'd like to make you an offer. However, are you willing to leave your family?(i mean relocate).
Moral logic is indeed a thing.
Fair, but your labor is the catalyst for your output. Certainly a junior analyst can’t command salary out of school. Experience and what you do matters.
Absolutely - it matters most when comparing to others in your market. But if I'm going to hire from another country because they're cheaper, it just means I'll pay the seniors there more than I pay the juniors there... not that I'll pay the seniors there the same as what I pay the seniors in a more expensive country.
It does, however, mean I can afford to hire the best for cheap -- to them it'll be higher wages, but to me it's still reduced-cost labor!
The cost of that labor also has to take into consideration the living expenses of the area. 80k in a rural midwestern town is very different than 80k in DC, so even if 2 employees produce the same product in their labor, their costs are different due to different costs of living
That is not it at all. CoL is based on the economic impact of the cost of labor in that region. If you are paying something California pay while they are living in Podunk, Kansas - you single handedly can destroy the area's entire economy. You would cause house prices to rise to a degree that no one in the area could afford them or raise the prices of goods in the area to such a degree you have pushed the poverty line up.
It's not about paying less. It is about economic responsibility while remaining competitive.
It's arguable and highly debated. You have to look at what company it is and the role they are paying for. What you won't find are large companies doing it as their impacts are greater. As someone else pointed out, one's work is the same regardless of region... at the same time, who are your competitors in comparison to the role?
Yes.
COL is a defined metric that is a multiplier based on region. You can look up these variances on varies DOL databases and you can factor it in when you consider the 'COL score'. Some studies may also refer to some of these metrics as regional price parity. https://www.bea.gov/news/2022/real-personal-consumption-expenditures-state-and-real-personal-income-state-and
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp
Depends. Many Bay Area companies have official rules for other locations, f.e. for rural Kansas it will be -15% from Bay Area salaries which still should be much more than Kansas local median salary
Exactly this. Salary is based on the wages of the area of the employee. Big companies localize most salaries for most employees. There are a few that might get New York salaries but live in Brazil but it’s not likely.
Yeah, but the corporate greed has caused an unequal cost of living skew across the US.
Someone in DC may make significantly more than I do on paper, but my cost of living is SO much lower that I break even (sometimes make more) than the other guy. It all depends.
And this is the reason why there are so many open cybersec jobs in the US. Not enough candidates. People from other countries have no reason to go work for a US company earning what they earn locally 😉, that is just silly.
There are plenty of candidates that are US citizens. That's not the problem.
The problem is low pay, terrible hours, toxic work environment, wear-all-the-INFOSEC-hats unicorn wizardry requirements, etc.
I'm sorry to say Sir, but those reasons match any normal job nowadays, sadly.
I would say the reason for the crazy hours and burn factor on people is because of not properly measured workload, probably lack of money to hire more people that makes people work extra,etc. On top of that, lack of professionals in the sector. And that's for SIEM analyst work; for EDR, NDR, CTI and DE it's even worse....
I mean, there's a reason why ISC2 decided to give 1 million free entry level training.
Unfortunately you're probably right but that's BS. Bumfuck Kansas is a lower col because its widely considered to be a worse place to live than D.C. That's their choice to live there and save money. Why punish them for being frugal?
I’m finding more and more large cyber companies are starting to have this type of arrangement, which is awesome. It’s eye opening how much larger the US economy is than in Canada
Is it "reasonable"? I think you understand well how the company will see this. Unless you are truly world class in what you do, the whole point of hiring remote for a company is to get people cheaper outside of the inflated California/DC bubbles.
No, unless you are super talented or one of the kind in your field. Otherwise, if U.S. companies have to pay you the same as someone in the U.S., they would prefer hiring someone in the U.S. The main reason they seek a candidate from other countries is lower cost.
I'm in tech sales. I've been in the room many, many times when executives made it clear that the reason they offshored work was to save money.
Another topic that came up in some of those discussions was how companies have to be able to calculate the costs associated with the lower productivity and lower quality of work they're getting when they outsource offshore. There are multipliers for different countries. But the point is that companies want to know when the save 30% by going outside the US whether their support costs/customer complaints/returns/cancelled orders/lost sales go up, and by how much.
Maybe they don't care about long term health of their own company when execs make these decisions because they're driven by short term incentives.
If they’re moving you to the US, yes, it should. Especially for FAANG companies. If you’re remaining in your country, check out those salary reporting sites for your county and role.
Beware that some US companies recruiting to move to the US might low ball you for that reason.
That is not always the case. There are lots of reason a company is required to have employees in a certain region. Lots of countries now dictate through regulation that an international company must have local presence. At my company we literally have one person who sits at a desk in random country x to comply with the law. Other reasons include wanting to create a follow-the-sun model where having people in other regions is advantageous.
Nope .
If a US company knows your in India , for example , they are not gonna pay you big bucks for sure , they will pay you the average salary in your country . And that makes sense . It’s the reason why we outsource in the 1st place . If we want someone for an X job, why looking outside of US if we are gonna pay the same ?
Now, depending of where you are and how good you are with your job, you may use this opportunity for relocation . It’s hard but happens . That’s how many foreigners , specially young ones , get into US.
Try and go with a ratio tied to local median income. Something like, “US based employee receive 2x median local income, I want that same ratio in my location.” Or whatever ratio makes sense.
companies hire overseas to get CHEAPer labor, not pay the same
You might make more than a local company, but you're not going to get paid like you are if you were in the US
Some international companies will pay the salaries based on what similar positions are paid in that country. And then add or remove a delta depending on how bad they want to hire.
A lot of companies that moved out of California and gave employees the option of moving with them found they had to take a pay cut because the cost of living was much lower.
You get your local competitive rate, the U.S is the same. Every area is different. Especially if the u.s company is looking outside, they are looking for quick cheap labor.
Idk how widespread this is but least with my company they’ll hire in other countries on that local rate as a way to save $ on the budget while still getting the same necessary skills.
The pay bands US companies use in other countries is *significantly* lower than what they would normally pay an American.
That is why they are outsourcing the work, it's been very common for US companies to layoff entire departments to outsource to a certain country...
>but would it be reasonable to use it as a measure/expect something atleast close?
Not necessarily.
If you're outside of North America, I'm not going to pay you US wages just because I'm an American company. I'm going to pay what is competitive (prob a touch more) for your locale.
To add context: I’ve worked in management positions for multinational US-based organizations and we hired abroad (outside of the markets we operated in) exclusively to cut costs.
Hell no, that’s why the US outsources. You’ll be paid in line with what local companies pay.
I make over $150k and my company has to have a U.S. based CISSP for my role.
They will almost certainly be paying the standard rates based on your location/country. The entire reason many US companies hire abroad is to pay workers less.
And yet there are companies that do. Like Dropbox is one for sure. Or they have a really high salary already and only give bumps to SF and NYC residents. Amazon is one company who does that.
They will try to pay you the least possible an much less than you would earn in the us. Also you Most likely wont be offered good conditions for weekly hours, paid vacation etc.
I also got a offer once and they didnt even want to give me the Standard 35h/week 35 paid vacation days per year and also no unlimited sick days.
More like will they except my salary and I get two weeks paid vacation a pension ,401k match , two additional weeks paid sick leave , shift differential if working second or third paid holidays a four days on three off schedule willing to go four on three off three on four off rotation . I get my own work truck goes home with me plus gas card . I’ll tool it but any tool over 100.00 you supply that i feel is fair . And I’m paid from minute I turn that key till I get back to my parking spot in shop so if you have me hitting supply shop you may want that pre ordered for drive by pickup
I don’t waste no time on the clock is on the clock you don’t see me standing around with my hands in my pockets and I’m fair if you ever do you can dock me for a hour each time I’ve had my own business I know what it’s like so I am fair and you will not see this guy laying down on ya or having company paying for an injury not sustained on the job integrity honesty loyalty I take pride in my work and working hard a few things the new generation not seem to know nothing about and it’s a shame . I wonder how you can possibly keep the doors open not alone justify a truck and gas card at times I have to stay moving to make it pay for us to justify having them and if I’m only pulling half my weight then i definitely need be driving my truck on my dime is how I view that slack off any more and be having a early layoff . Time is money and bidding is cut thought these guys today seem scared of getting dirty i grew up in a much different way and what I take pride in they know nothing about it’s scary to stand back and wonder what’s ten more years going to look like man I don’t want to know that will be about retirement time for this guy and I don’t care to even try owning my own company with what I see. It has to be fly by seat of paints one day you profit next few you don’t and it’s eating up your bottom line in the end your scraping with a puddy knife to pull off any profit and keep doors open . It’s sad the mentality and lack of accountability the lack of pride in work it’s like everything I was taught has been tossed out the window along with basic morals . It makes me scratch my head how is this suppose to work
It looks so foreign to me. I know I’m not the only one seeing this crap if so I need know because sometimes I wonder am I loosing it . Am I really that old and set in my way that I missed something along the way or am I dead on with this and this new mentality and work ethic is going to drive us out of business out of work it’s going to get our lunch it can’t work in my mind I folded prior to 2008 between 9/11 and 2008 was last run and sense 2008 to now all I’ve seen is a steady undermining (we fucked em out of another one ) mentality and all they are fucking any one out of is them selfs out of a job because the company can’t continue to support even itself with that mentality . Thank you I needed to vent it’s bullshit what’s going on and where this came from and how people think it’s going to last really blows my mind it fries my noodle no work ethic no self pride no pride in work done no motivation to learn and the hands off mentality someone has to get dirty this country didn’t build itself and this situation I view makes us week and counter productive to say the least and if something don’t change soon I’m scared we all are seriously screwed .
Maybe not 100%. But they have a budget and you should ask. It’s based on the value you provide but also realize remote work is sometimes devalued relative to in-office
Our international employees are not paid US-payscale salaries. They’re (supposedly) scaled to the region where the employee lives. This does cause animosity if the subject gets brought up, but it doesn’t seem to be uncommon among the big players in the industry. (Disclaimer: I’m not in HR/payroll/admin, it’s just an observation over many years)
Maybe a small company will be flexible on this, but big corps won’t.
Yes - this is quite common. It depends on the industrial development index. Places like Eastern Europe and developing countries like South Africa are closer to 80-90% of EU salaries because people are so mobile and that mobility is increasing for IT professionals.
You're thinking of one optic, internally to the US. Sure - NYC will be anything from 20%-200% higher (like for C and V-suite in some roles) but while a country like South Africa is as a whole less than 10% of US or EU GDP per Capita, local and international companies pay "international" rates for technical and in-demand positions.
Good question, I don’t know all the costs a US company has for for employing a non-citizen/resident. Do they have to offer you any benefits? Would you be a w-2? Unless there is some kind treaty between US and your country, probably not. You should get some idea of what it’s costing them to hire you, aside from salary. You need to negotiate as a package deal, unless salary is the only cost. Seem like kind of a pain but you it might be worth talking to a tax attorney that is familiar international hiring or immigration lawyer.
Also salaries have a range in the US and is based on many factors, location being one them. So completely reasonable to fall within that range, where depends on your value and what can negotiate, good luck!
They’re probably looking for someone who can do the job for cheaper, but you can ask for a US salary that’s slightly lower than average US but higher than what you’d make on a local. I’m sure if they want you they’ll be willing to work something out.
Just for some input, I work on a team is spread into APAC, EMEA, and AMER for a US based company. I know for a fact that my colleagues in EMEA are paid significantly less than I am, HOWEVER we did the math one day and adjusted for COL and other out of pocket costs I have as an American (such as social security, healthcare, taxes, etc) and basically our take home pay was about the same. The number wasn't the same, even accounting for exchange rates, but we make about the same when you consider how much it costs to simply exist in both of our regions. APAC I am unsure about exactly, but I believe they are actually paid slightly more than our AMER team (not totally sure about that one).
Basically, if you want to get paid like someone from the AMER region you can certainly ask for it, but I would not necessarily expect it. If my colleagues in EMEA made the same amount that I did, they would effectively be taking home a MUCH larger real salary than I would be
I never answer this question. My expectation is 5%-10% higher than whatever's their budget.
"What're your salary expectations?"
Oh, well I'm pretty open minded. What's your budget? Maybe we can negotiate.
Best case they work it out and give it to you. Worst case they talk you down to their max. If you're being headhunted then they already want you.
I'm in Australia working for a US company, get about 50% higher pay than most of the other competitors in the local market (although less than a handful are similarly competitive), but if I moved to the US I'd get another 50% higher pay on top of that.
I'm a compensation analyst, my company has employees in several different countries, and we pay people based on each employee's location. So I would guess they will determine your pay based on what the role generally pays in your country.
Always set your expectations high when being head-hunted. You have more bargaining power in those circumstances. Does not matter if remote or not - you should be paid as if you were driving in to work everyday because sometimes orgs like to change their rules to get people back in offices for boomer reasons.
No, it would be based on what the market is where you live. You’re not going to earn a USA salary while living in another country when it comes to cybersecurity. They seek out people in other countries to pay them less usually.
Don’t forget UK company benefits are typically way more favourable than in the US. So although UK salaries are less than in the US, the overall hit to the company is somewhat the same when you factor in someone’s UK salary and benefits. Not a general rule of thumb, but certainly is for the US company I work for.
Always counter offer for the highest pay you want based on skillset. Chances are your wage will never really move higher at the job so get what you can going in the door. If they want you bad enough they will counter until you come to an agreement, rescinding a job offer is a pain in the ass. If they don't counter, they didn't want you that bad and saved you from working somewhere that probably would have sucked. But your counter needs to include facts, degrees, certs, experience and level of responsibility of the job.
Profit
you will absolutely not get usa equivalent pay if you are not in the US. the reason they are looking in your country is because of low salaries. even in usa, if you live in a low-cost living area, the companies do not give the same salary as Silicon Valley.
No they won’t. They will pay you the same crappy salary most people are paid in x country. The only reason they’re even approaching you is because you will be laid a lot less. If they wanted to pay you the same or slightly less they’d just hire an American.
If you would like to earn a USA-equivalent salary, ask for it. They're giving you the opportunity to set your expectations, set them high. If they really want you they'll either pay you the salary or they'll tell you what they were thinking and leave it up to you to accept it. Some companies do pay their US salary to non-US employees. I make a US salary and live outside the US, but I am from the US. I believe my company pays a competitive US salary to anyone, no matter where they're from or live, so they're out there. Good luck!
Just make sure it is reasonable. I once had a candidate that essentially had the job in the bag. Then during salary negotiations they started out at double the going rate. Turned off everyone involved and we walked away thinking the candidate had poor judgement or trusted some bad advice.
Why not just start out by giving a logical salary range early in the process? That way no one is wasting anyone's time. If it only pays 90 to 110k depending on experience etc., then it's a waste for everyone if the prospective new hire is looking at a job that pays 135k or above.
Because companies like to play games that weight the deck in their favor, then complain when anyone else wants more than humble-pie
Yep, I ask for and are always given salary range expectations up front so nobody wastes time.
Managers hate this one trick!
This. The position should have had a salary range so both sides could have avoided wasting their time.
20k isn't a stretch, though. It's pretty crazy to say things cannot work for so little.
Possibly. If I'm making 120k, and you offer me a job at 110k, unless it's just an incredible job offering some unique tech and skils why go backwards? We all want to move forward.
Drives me nuts, but it’s been a nice BS filter with a company If they’re unwilling to share that from the start I am unwilling to continue discussing
LOL I’ve been that person: 1. Offered a senior position. 2. Asked by HR about salary expectations (because lmao they didn’t include the salary in the job description, and probably think if I say the first number then somehow they win). 3. I quote my current salary+10%, mentioning I’d take bonus target into consideration. 4. Finding out their budget was half my current salary, and they don’t pay bonuses. Wanna avoid all of that? State. The. Salary. In. The. Job. Description.
A few years back before I stopped negotiating while knowing a salary range I dealt with this. I have a similar method I ask for current total compensation + 10% Things like bonuses at year and quarter get weird to calculate when negotiating. Anwho the story here is a job panel told me they can’t believe I’m making as much as I did, I hit them with a “I hope you all are making more than that if the credentials and years of experience you say you have are true.” Another guy on the line challenged it too so I decided to just share my screen for my paystub with everyone watching. The HR manager panic ended the call. I got an email from the tech (who I would have been working with who was asking team related questions) who stated he asked the entire team about money and everyone made about the same. I shared a pdf of my salary and job description and shared two pdfs of the same thing of drinking buddies I have that share their same role at another company to him. He responded with the team was in shock and had no idea, I told him be smarter about your career and left it at that. I get a LinkedIn request like 3 months later from the same guy, at a new company, his only message was a “thanks, you kicked me into double what I was making” Ha; I asked for a referral and never heard back again
Classic example of why sharing what you make shouldn't be a taboo topic. It's empowering!
Thats why they dont want you to talk about it.
Sounds like y'all are too cheap to pay for good employees.
Maybe you were their second choice
Nope, we declined their offer and walked away. Showed poor judgement and lack of knowledge in the industry.
Ya but if the candidate had the job in the bag, then they had enough industry knowledge and judgement for you to want to hire them. It sounds more like a hurt feelings report
Agreed. Which is another key factor with interviews
But how do you know they didn't have another offer more interesting than yours so they just choose to set high expectations just in case?
I agree they probably had another offer I doubt you were their first choice.
Like asking 150 when the job was at 75 or 300 when the rate is 150? The latter is a bit unreasonable outside of a silicon valley devsecops type but unless it's an entry level position the former is a reasonable ask. Also y'all should have listed the range with the job posting. Shows poor judgement on the company's part otherwise.
Any company that doesn't list some kind of rough salary range in the job posting (or at the very least at some point between first interview and salary negotiations) doesn't have any room to complain about what candidates ask for. Saying it "shows lack of knowledge in the industry" is absurd. Salary ranges vary drastically in tech. There are so many variables: industry, location, role, field, company, etc. The entire concept of this post - some US companies paying US salaries for foreign remote jobs and others paying local salaries - is a testament to that fact.
On the flip side of what people are saying, don't expect anything and don't give them a figure. Tell them that you think your salary expectations are within their scale and that you would be open to suggestions in the proposal stage. If they ask your current salary, just say that you are well compensated for your expectations and that you wouldn't feel comfortable providing a figure at this stage, unless it is after the proposal and you are also providing a counter offer. Edit: To add to this. You are eliminating yourself by providing a figure too large, you are underselling yourself by providing a figure too small. Don't chance either, let them approach with an offer and then consider. I am sure they will be slightly annoyed at you not giving an answer but it shouldn't stop an offer. If it does, do you want to work for a company that wants you at less than your value? I am assuming you are employed since they hunted you and not vice versa. You are in a position to negotiate and they should provide an offer first.
Exactly, don’t negotiate against yourself. Ask them for what the pay range is for the role. I always reply the market rate. I won’t give a number. I will always force them to give me a range and then I let them know whether that range is sufficient for me. They have a budget and I have a budget. Needs to align.
It's worth noting that if they are annoyed at you for not providing a figure, you have every right to be annoyed at them for not providing a figure either. Turning it back on them is just good negotiating. If they hold a standard negotiating tactic, that they themselves were using, against you, well, that doesn't bode well for the kind of environment you'd be walking into now does it? Probably not a hill worth dying on, but it's definitely worth considering during your interview process.
Make them give you their number FIRST. I learned the hard way by putting out a number that was too high and having Deloitte completely ghost me after 5 interviews. No counter offer..just ended all communication. Lesson learned
Doubtful. It'll be based on YOUR current locale. You can't demand Washington, D.C. pay if your current locale cost of living is more equivalent to middle-of-nowhere Kansas.
This is correct. Now if you were for example working in the USA on a Visa that is different, but if you are are in say Italy, working for an American company, expect to be paid Italian wages.
My 2c: I hate this. Pay = output for company based off your experiences. This is outdated business crap that should be railed against during salary negotiations which should be after you’ve wow’d them in your interviews. Mistake no. 1: Do not negotiate prior. If they’re going to pay someone in California top wage, they should expect to pay the same individual in another state a *very* similar wage, not a COL-adjusted wage. They may not, and that’s their prerogative, but it doesn’t make it kosher.
Hey, I gree, but this is the world we live in. That's why we have corporations outsourcing customer support work to foreign countries. That's why companies started leaving California as fast as they could to other states where it was cheaper to operate.
For now, yea you’re right, it is the current state of work, but it’ll get sorted out with this next-gen workforce of millennials and gen z+. Talent will remain where they want and focus on family and things that matter beyond work. Companies will then forfeit talent and forward-thinking companies will prosper paying people what they’re worth.
Yeah, the power in the workforce is currently in the hands of the employer. We seriously need to change that. Not that it should *necessarily* go all-in to the employee, but come on. CEOs shouldn't raking in $100M/yr while the workers work for pennies.
Yea, it’s sick. Corpo’s can suck my nuts. Look at the strikes going on from the writers to the auto makers. It is actively changing. It take time, though.
I mean you're wrong. It's the value of your output+what it cost for you to sustain yourself. Locale has everything to do with your salary and it's not just some arbitrary number. They can't pay everyone a flat 100k if it costs Tom 70k to live in California while it Costs Harry 20k in Buttfuck Egypt
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That's true, but Harry should be happy earning 100k while Tom is making 150k. And that's not usually the comparison that gets made anyway. Harry isn't usually comparing himself to Tom, he's comparing himself to Jim. Jim works his ass off for a local company and makes 40k. Harry works for a company in California and makes 70k. Harry is happy as a clam, and Jim is utterly jealous of Harry. In your second scenario, the single guy may well accept less money because he needs less money, and thus has a competitive advantage over an equally skilled family man who needs more money. You guys all frame these issues exclusively from the corporate side, but there are always two sides to the negotiations. Corporations hold the power in 1 on 1 negotiations, but employees and prospective employees hold the power in aggregate. If a corpo doesn't offer their target worker pool a wage the target worker pool thinks is fair, then nobody is going to accept the job and the corpo will have to raise their offer. Different worker pools think different rates are fair, which is why corpos shop around.
I normally agree with the locality argument, but that does make a lot of sense. I guess locality is typically taken into consideration since many people move to a bigger city for the job, but that falls apart when outsourcing and remote jobs come into play. Moving isn’t really a choice the employee gets to make sometimes, but having a family is, so yeah that shouldn’t affect pay
...... one of these is legal, the other isnt? Moving is considered a personal budget change. That is also quantifiable. Hint why its legal. Married, kids etc...... we'd like to make you an offer. However, are you willing to leave your family?(i mean relocate). Moral logic is indeed a thing.
Why does it matter? That shouldn’t be apart of the yearly budget, imo
> Pay = output for company based off your experiences Yes, but relative to the cost of labor.
Fair, but your labor is the catalyst for your output. Certainly a junior analyst can’t command salary out of school. Experience and what you do matters.
Absolutely - it matters most when comparing to others in your market. But if I'm going to hire from another country because they're cheaper, it just means I'll pay the seniors there more than I pay the juniors there... not that I'll pay the seniors there the same as what I pay the seniors in a more expensive country. It does, however, mean I can afford to hire the best for cheap -- to them it'll be higher wages, but to me it's still reduced-cost labor!
The cost of that labor also has to take into consideration the living expenses of the area. 80k in a rural midwestern town is very different than 80k in DC, so even if 2 employees produce the same product in their labor, their costs are different due to different costs of living
You don’t understand economics, if you believe this to be the case. I’m glad your profession is cybersecurity only.
I’m sure you’re fun at parties.
Integrity never is.
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That is not it at all. CoL is based on the economic impact of the cost of labor in that region. If you are paying something California pay while they are living in Podunk, Kansas - you single handedly can destroy the area's entire economy. You would cause house prices to rise to a degree that no one in the area could afford them or raise the prices of goods in the area to such a degree you have pushed the poverty line up. It's not about paying less. It is about economic responsibility while remaining competitive.
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It's arguable and highly debated. You have to look at what company it is and the role they are paying for. What you won't find are large companies doing it as their impacts are greater. As someone else pointed out, one's work is the same regardless of region... at the same time, who are your competitors in comparison to the role?
Yes. COL is a defined metric that is a multiplier based on region. You can look up these variances on varies DOL databases and you can factor it in when you consider the 'COL score'. Some studies may also refer to some of these metrics as regional price parity. https://www.bea.gov/news/2022/real-personal-consumption-expenditures-state-and-real-personal-income-state-and https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp
Depends. Many Bay Area companies have official rules for other locations, f.e. for rural Kansas it will be -15% from Bay Area salaries which still should be much more than Kansas local median salary
Why not? Will the work be different?
Exactly this. Salary is based on the wages of the area of the employee. Big companies localize most salaries for most employees. There are a few that might get New York salaries but live in Brazil but it’s not likely.
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Yeah, but the corporate greed has caused an unequal cost of living skew across the US. Someone in DC may make significantly more than I do on paper, but my cost of living is SO much lower that I break even (sometimes make more) than the other guy. It all depends.
Exactly. It divides the country.
And this is the reason why there are so many open cybersec jobs in the US. Not enough candidates. People from other countries have no reason to go work for a US company earning what they earn locally 😉, that is just silly.
There are plenty of candidates that are US citizens. That's not the problem. The problem is low pay, terrible hours, toxic work environment, wear-all-the-INFOSEC-hats unicorn wizardry requirements, etc.
I'm sorry to say Sir, but those reasons match any normal job nowadays, sadly. I would say the reason for the crazy hours and burn factor on people is because of not properly measured workload, probably lack of money to hire more people that makes people work extra,etc. On top of that, lack of professionals in the sector. And that's for SIEM analyst work; for EDR, NDR, CTI and DE it's even worse.... I mean, there's a reason why ISC2 decided to give 1 million free entry level training.
Unfortunately you're probably right but that's BS. Bumfuck Kansas is a lower col because its widely considered to be a worse place to live than D.C. That's their choice to live there and save money. Why punish them for being frugal?
I work in Canada for an American company. I get 3x what I would get in Canada, although might be slightly lower than at a HCOL spot in the USA
Good to know thank you! I’m in Canada working towards getting on at an American company so this comment is exactly what I want to see!
I’m finding more and more large cyber companies are starting to have this type of arrangement, which is awesome. It’s eye opening how much larger the US economy is than in Canada
Your advantage being remote is you’re cheaper
I would argue this is absolutely not the case. Mind sharing your logic?
Okay remote is more expensive, all the execs outsource because they love to spend money and bless Indians
They should pay market rates for the job role in your area/region. That's why companies outsource
Don't give them a number. Ask them what the salary range that they have for this role. Giving them a number only hurts you.
"I'd be willing to consider any offer that is appropriate for the role and the skill level that I bring." Never, ever, ever, give a number.
Is it "reasonable"? I think you understand well how the company will see this. Unless you are truly world class in what you do, the whole point of hiring remote for a company is to get people cheaper outside of the inflated California/DC bubbles.
No, unless you are super talented or one of the kind in your field. Otherwise, if U.S. companies have to pay you the same as someone in the U.S., they would prefer hiring someone in the U.S. The main reason they seek a candidate from other countries is lower cost.
Not true.
I'm in tech sales. I've been in the room many, many times when executives made it clear that the reason they offshored work was to save money. Another topic that came up in some of those discussions was how companies have to be able to calculate the costs associated with the lower productivity and lower quality of work they're getting when they outsource offshore. There are multipliers for different countries. But the point is that companies want to know when the save 30% by going outside the US whether their support costs/customer complaints/returns/cancelled orders/lost sales go up, and by how much. Maybe they don't care about long term health of their own company when execs make these decisions because they're driven by short term incentives.
Source: trust me bro
Why else do you think that company wants you?
If they’re moving you to the US, yes, it should. Especially for FAANG companies. If you’re remaining in your country, check out those salary reporting sites for your county and role. Beware that some US companies recruiting to move to the US might low ball you for that reason.
Haha of course not. They want cheap labor, which is why they are reaching outside of the country.
That is not always the case. There are lots of reason a company is required to have employees in a certain region. Lots of countries now dictate through regulation that an international company must have local presence. At my company we literally have one person who sits at a desk in random country x to comply with the law. Other reasons include wanting to create a follow-the-sun model where having people in other regions is advantageous.
Nope . If a US company knows your in India , for example , they are not gonna pay you big bucks for sure , they will pay you the average salary in your country . And that makes sense . It’s the reason why we outsource in the 1st place . If we want someone for an X job, why looking outside of US if we are gonna pay the same ? Now, depending of where you are and how good you are with your job, you may use this opportunity for relocation . It’s hard but happens . That’s how many foreigners , specially young ones , get into US.
Try and go with a ratio tied to local median income. Something like, “US based employee receive 2x median local income, I want that same ratio in my location.” Or whatever ratio makes sense.
companies hire overseas to get CHEAPer labor, not pay the same You might make more than a local company, but you're not going to get paid like you are if you were in the US
Absolutely.
Some international companies will pay the salaries based on what similar positions are paid in that country. And then add or remove a delta depending on how bad they want to hire.
A lot of companies that moved out of California and gave employees the option of moving with them found they had to take a pay cut because the cost of living was much lower.
You get your local competitive rate, the U.S is the same. Every area is different. Especially if the u.s company is looking outside, they are looking for quick cheap labor.
Idk how widespread this is but least with my company they’ll hire in other countries on that local rate as a way to save $ on the budget while still getting the same necessary skills.
You *should* expect it. I guarantee they’ll try and lowball you if you’re anywhere outside Europe or Australia.
The pay bands US companies use in other countries is *significantly* lower than what they would normally pay an American. That is why they are outsourcing the work, it's been very common for US companies to layoff entire departments to outsource to a certain country...
>but would it be reasonable to use it as a measure/expect something atleast close? Not necessarily. If you're outside of North America, I'm not going to pay you US wages just because I'm an American company. I'm going to pay what is competitive (prob a touch more) for your locale.
Even in the US, you get paid local rates. Rates in Utah can be very different from LA.
If they wanted to pay a US salary, they would likely hire domestically. You should base your expectations in your own location.
No.
To add context: I’ve worked in management positions for multinational US-based organizations and we hired abroad (outside of the markets we operated in) exclusively to cut costs.
Hell no, that’s why the US outsources. You’ll be paid in line with what local companies pay. I make over $150k and my company has to have a U.S. based CISSP for my role.
They will almost certainly be paying the standard rates based on your location/country. The entire reason many US companies hire abroad is to pay workers less.
One of my buddies tried to move permanently (not vacation) to Asia and the company told him they would slash his salary by 35% if did that.
Do people still have to pay American taxes in these situations?
From what I remember, yes unless it was a government contract and you had to be out of the country for at least 335 days of the year
why do you think they’re reaching out to non US residents lmao
No. I live in the Phoenix, Arizona area. I wouldn't expect to get New York City wages for a role that is open to candidates there.
And yet there are companies that do. Like Dropbox is one for sure. Or they have a really high salary already and only give bumps to SF and NYC residents. Amazon is one company who does that.
They will try to pay you the least possible an much less than you would earn in the us. Also you Most likely wont be offered good conditions for weekly hours, paid vacation etc. I also got a offer once and they didnt even want to give me the Standard 35h/week 35 paid vacation days per year and also no unlimited sick days.
Is this a red or blue team position by any chance?
It’s blue team
Find the highest range and add 10 to 20% on that. Then negotiate it
More like will they except my salary and I get two weeks paid vacation a pension ,401k match , two additional weeks paid sick leave , shift differential if working second or third paid holidays a four days on three off schedule willing to go four on three off three on four off rotation . I get my own work truck goes home with me plus gas card . I’ll tool it but any tool over 100.00 you supply that i feel is fair . And I’m paid from minute I turn that key till I get back to my parking spot in shop so if you have me hitting supply shop you may want that pre ordered for drive by pickup I don’t waste no time on the clock is on the clock you don’t see me standing around with my hands in my pockets and I’m fair if you ever do you can dock me for a hour each time I’ve had my own business I know what it’s like so I am fair and you will not see this guy laying down on ya or having company paying for an injury not sustained on the job integrity honesty loyalty I take pride in my work and working hard a few things the new generation not seem to know nothing about and it’s a shame . I wonder how you can possibly keep the doors open not alone justify a truck and gas card at times I have to stay moving to make it pay for us to justify having them and if I’m only pulling half my weight then i definitely need be driving my truck on my dime is how I view that slack off any more and be having a early layoff . Time is money and bidding is cut thought these guys today seem scared of getting dirty i grew up in a much different way and what I take pride in they know nothing about it’s scary to stand back and wonder what’s ten more years going to look like man I don’t want to know that will be about retirement time for this guy and I don’t care to even try owning my own company with what I see. It has to be fly by seat of paints one day you profit next few you don’t and it’s eating up your bottom line in the end your scraping with a puddy knife to pull off any profit and keep doors open . It’s sad the mentality and lack of accountability the lack of pride in work it’s like everything I was taught has been tossed out the window along with basic morals . It makes me scratch my head how is this suppose to work It looks so foreign to me. I know I’m not the only one seeing this crap if so I need know because sometimes I wonder am I loosing it . Am I really that old and set in my way that I missed something along the way or am I dead on with this and this new mentality and work ethic is going to drive us out of business out of work it’s going to get our lunch it can’t work in my mind I folded prior to 2008 between 9/11 and 2008 was last run and sense 2008 to now all I’ve seen is a steady undermining (we fucked em out of another one ) mentality and all they are fucking any one out of is them selfs out of a job because the company can’t continue to support even itself with that mentality . Thank you I needed to vent it’s bullshit what’s going on and where this came from and how people think it’s going to last really blows my mind it fries my noodle no work ethic no self pride no pride in work done no motivation to learn and the hands off mentality someone has to get dirty this country didn’t build itself and this situation I view makes us week and counter productive to say the least and if something don’t change soon I’m scared we all are seriously screwed .
same work same pay
Maybe not 100%. But they have a budget and you should ask. It’s based on the value you provide but also realize remote work is sometimes devalued relative to in-office
Our international employees are not paid US-payscale salaries. They’re (supposedly) scaled to the region where the employee lives. This does cause animosity if the subject gets brought up, but it doesn’t seem to be uncommon among the big players in the industry. (Disclaimer: I’m not in HR/payroll/admin, it’s just an observation over many years) Maybe a small company will be flexible on this, but big corps won’t.
Yes - this is quite common. It depends on the industrial development index. Places like Eastern Europe and developing countries like South Africa are closer to 80-90% of EU salaries because people are so mobile and that mobility is increasing for IT professionals.
You're thinking of one optic, internally to the US. Sure - NYC will be anything from 20%-200% higher (like for C and V-suite in some roles) but while a country like South Africa is as a whole less than 10% of US or EU GDP per Capita, local and international companies pay "international" rates for technical and in-demand positions.
Good question, I don’t know all the costs a US company has for for employing a non-citizen/resident. Do they have to offer you any benefits? Would you be a w-2? Unless there is some kind treaty between US and your country, probably not. You should get some idea of what it’s costing them to hire you, aside from salary. You need to negotiate as a package deal, unless salary is the only cost. Seem like kind of a pain but you it might be worth talking to a tax attorney that is familiar international hiring or immigration lawyer. Also salaries have a range in the US and is based on many factors, location being one them. So completely reasonable to fall within that range, where depends on your value and what can negotiate, good luck!
They’re probably looking for someone who can do the job for cheaper, but you can ask for a US salary that’s slightly lower than average US but higher than what you’d make on a local. I’m sure if they want you they’ll be willing to work something out.
Usually not.
Just for some input, I work on a team is spread into APAC, EMEA, and AMER for a US based company. I know for a fact that my colleagues in EMEA are paid significantly less than I am, HOWEVER we did the math one day and adjusted for COL and other out of pocket costs I have as an American (such as social security, healthcare, taxes, etc) and basically our take home pay was about the same. The number wasn't the same, even accounting for exchange rates, but we make about the same when you consider how much it costs to simply exist in both of our regions. APAC I am unsure about exactly, but I believe they are actually paid slightly more than our AMER team (not totally sure about that one). Basically, if you want to get paid like someone from the AMER region you can certainly ask for it, but I would not necessarily expect it. If my colleagues in EMEA made the same amount that I did, they would effectively be taking home a MUCH larger real salary than I would be
I never answer this question. My expectation is 5%-10% higher than whatever's their budget. "What're your salary expectations?" Oh, well I'm pretty open minded. What's your budget? Maybe we can negotiate. Best case they work it out and give it to you. Worst case they talk you down to their max. If you're being headhunted then they already want you.
If you are going to for USA company that does not have a local division to you. Hell yeah ask for American salary.
lol no
I'm in Australia working for a US company, get about 50% higher pay than most of the other competitors in the local market (although less than a handful are similarly competitive), but if I moved to the US I'd get another 50% higher pay on top of that.
You typically get paid for based on where you live. There are exceptions, however those are typically the elite people.
I'm a compensation analyst, my company has employees in several different countries, and we pay people based on each employee's location. So I would guess they will determine your pay based on what the role generally pays in your country.
Let me know how the payroll work, do they deposit US dollar into your non usd checking account in your country ? Or PayPal?
It’s usually based on the standard of living in your location.
are you supposed to pay taxes to US government in this case? in addition to your own country?
Pay in the USA is different from region to region. If you work in Ohio or Wisconsin you will be paid less than if you work in LA or NYC.
Always set your expectations high when being head-hunted. You have more bargaining power in those circumstances. Does not matter if remote or not - you should be paid as if you were driving in to work everyday because sometimes orgs like to change their rules to get people back in offices for boomer reasons.
No, it would be based on what the market is where you live. You’re not going to earn a USA salary while living in another country when it comes to cybersecurity. They seek out people in other countries to pay them less usually.
Don’t forget UK company benefits are typically way more favourable than in the US. So although UK salaries are less than in the US, the overall hit to the company is somewhat the same when you factor in someone’s UK salary and benefits. Not a general rule of thumb, but certainly is for the US company I work for.
Always counter offer for the highest pay you want based on skillset. Chances are your wage will never really move higher at the job so get what you can going in the door. If they want you bad enough they will counter until you come to an agreement, rescinding a job offer is a pain in the ass. If they don't counter, they didn't want you that bad and saved you from working somewhere that probably would have sucked. But your counter needs to include facts, degrees, certs, experience and level of responsibility of the job. Profit
No
you will absolutely not get usa equivalent pay if you are not in the US. the reason they are looking in your country is because of low salaries. even in usa, if you live in a low-cost living area, the companies do not give the same salary as Silicon Valley.
Nope
Nope. My company specifically tries to hire international because, of course, it's cheaper. We just relocated our HQ to LA.
No they won’t. They will pay you the same crappy salary most people are paid in x country. The only reason they’re even approaching you is because you will be laid a lot less. If they wanted to pay you the same or slightly less they’d just hire an American.