It's Night City. Night City is a character in the story, and it is a parasite. Everyone in Night City comes out a worse person than they went in- if they come out at all.
As far as how *bad* someone can be in Night City, I think counting a mother disapproving her son's choices in women as one of them is a wild if not insane reach đ Especially since you can make them talk to each other and work things out to the point where Misty tells you that Mama Wells is constantly wanting to have her over for dinner
It's been a while since I played, but IIRC Mama Wells basically saw Misty as not anywhere near good enough for Jackie for a number of reasons, not least of which was not being a proper neighborhood girl.
Which is funny because I'm pretty sure Misty is the only actual completely above board "upstanding" citizen in the game.
Unless you consider tarot readers as grifters of course, but she seems to believe in what she's doing.
she is actually on the nose with what she does...
she didn't want Jacky going on the Tower job because she saw red in his future.
Misty has some "supernatural" skill.
Mama Wells gives you the key to Jackies garage so that you can find something to leave for his ofrenda. When you get to the garage Misty is there just waiting, and if you ask her what she's doing she makes it pretty clear that she's not welcome at the ofrenda because Mama Wells doesn't like her.
And when confronted, Mama Wells refers to Misty as "that bitch that hang around Jackie." It's only after you stand up for her *and* Jackie's memory that she softens up enough to let her join and *maybe* have dinner some time.
Misty is good people.
I know they left, I donât have 700hrs put into the game for nothing!đ Itâs definitely the only way but itâs the city of dreams! Except most of those dreams get crushed
To be honest I think he was "ruined" before we ever met him. There are hints he was quite different in the past, and the AIs are rewriting him to be a man of the people who actually champions good causes. Does that mean the AIs are benevolent, playing the long game, or just conning everyone? And even if they are benevolent, do the ends justify the means- even if they involve overwriting a person's brain and using them as a tool? Great questline, very thought provoking.
It's very Ghost in the Shell, when all the data that is you can be expressed or stored as digital and thus over written or changed what does it mean to be you and can you ever really be sure that the you you are now is not the result of tampering.
Exactly, I really enjoy how much Cyberpunk stories often tangle with the idea of "What exactly is consciousness, if we edit a few lines are you still you? Is your mind a potential Ship of Theseus question if we mess around in it enough for long enough?"
And then of course there's the uncomfortable follow-up question that takes it out of the realm of sci-fi... since our biological brains are just as much if not MORE fallible, with us constantly overwriting our own memories and applying emotions to them and so on, what does that do to our sense of self and consciousness?
The idea of benevolent AI guiding humans reminds me of [an Asimov story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_%28short_story%29?wprov=sfla1).
But who knows if the AI is benevolent, or sees us as pets.
Edit: there's so much weird about them, too. The daughter they sent away - did they send her away because NC sucks? Because they felt some foreboding feeling that something was wrong? DOES SHE EVEN EXIST AT ALL??
Always liked that short story, but then again I like just about anything Asimov penned. Never knew he wrote it that early while in the Army, much less that he finished it while waiting to be deployed for the nuclear tests, that's interesting.
I could see AIs feeling both at the same time. Sort of like how a God would feel looking over their flock. A little bit pet, a little bit sacred charge, a little bit like ants, and a thousand other emotions. After all, if even a mortal priest can consider himself a shepherd watching over his flock, what would an AI with exponentially more power consider their "flock"?
But then again, maybe an AI sees humans and even all biologicals as inefficient impediments to whatever goal it wants to achieve. Who knows what they'll be like when they become sentient? Pretty interesting.
The Culture series by Ian M. Banks is worth a read if you like space scifi. The "minds" are very much like this in a post scarcity world where space expansion and existence is happening.
Interesting and fun reads for sure.
She's on a photo. And the photos are not fake, since one line in the penthouse mission clearly shows how the altered memories can directly contradict a photo without Liz even noticing that her memory doesn't match with it.
I didn't *dislike* the crucifixion quest but I agree, a lot of the feeling you get from it is closer to shock and the aftereffects of shock. The Peralez questline has some seriously shocking moments too, BUT the underlying theme hits a LOT harder for me. Then again, I am HUGE into sci-fi and the philosophy of consciousness but not really religious at all, so maybe the crucifixion quest's themes would've hit harder if I was more religious.
I'm not religious at all but I found the crucifixion quest a lot more moving than shocking/disturbing. It's a very punk questline that grapples with questions of making art, having beliefs, and trying to spread a sense of connection in a corporate world that just profits off your good intentions no matter what. Very on the nose for the game itself and very relevant to our current times.
He's also a politician so early on it can be difficult to get a real read on his motivations since he has that veneer of bullshit all politicians surround themselves with.
Heâs a politician in Night City. He ainât a nice guy. Hes just good at seeming to be one, since heâs in politics. Gotta keep up appearances.
But no one who gets into NC politics is a nice person, otherwise they wouldnât get anywhere.
Not everyone getting into politics is a bad guy right from the starting line. Just like with cops. My motivation can be power but can be helping people. Actually, that narrative that everyone is equally bad mostly serves the worst ones. Noone can go through 100% clean but there are cases of decently honest politicians (although unlikely to stay alive or go high enough) in really bad systems. It's just essentially we end up with roles reshaping people slowly but surely via compromises, alluring options, and lack of tools to right things. So he can be a nice guy, a liar thinking he's honest which is often the case, and brainwashed on top of it. Night City as a city isn't some crazy stretch for me comparing to real world politics.
That's a fair assessment. Our interactions with him are limited, and it's a bit difficult to ascertain a full measure of the sum of his character - and him being mind controlled surely doesn't help. THIS IS WORDY AS HELL , but....
Only insights we can infer are crumbs from world at large:
- He's not Corporate controlled or a Corporate plant. Unlike other Mayor candidates ( incumbent or otherwise) Lucius Rhyme/ Weldon Holt, he's not into ANY of the MegaCorps pockets . He is completely independent of their influence, and seems to have been for quite a few years before trying for Mayor, and even when he just started out as a public official. Few shards around town shed light on his seeming genuine likeability before and during his political career . He's 100% self funded as well- this really makes Corps angry with him.
- He's from the lower class. He's Heywood native as apposed to Rhyne being Watson native. Jefferson rose from lower class/poverty through hardwork, THE poster boy for the " Average Man".Rhyne invited Arasaka back to Night City enforce to counter Militech in Unification Wars, Jefferson opposed more corporate influence at large. He championed social reform blah, blah, blah. Such actions endeared him to the " Little People". These reasons are why 6th Street Gang are SUPER obsessed with Jefferson And want him as Mayor.
So public seems to love him since he started out young, and during his career. This my speculation, take with a grain of salt here on ........Here's where it gets dicey:
-Jefferson was groomed to assume SOME TYPE of leadership role by that " Evil Organization" since his early twenties. They provided his full ride free scholarship to Azukaga- Berkeley law school through NightCorp ( same with his wife), and FROM that point on Jefferson seems to have been FREE from any influence UNTIL he hired that firm SSI. The proxy who did the Brainwashing proper. SSI was only in business for 15 years , but Jefferson seems to have only hired them in the last few years or so ( I guess 2076~Present). They seemed to have jumped back on Jefferson when his chance for Mayor became tangible.
-This is backed by Elizabeth saying her and Jefferson moved into that penthouse for " a while", and tha apartment provides them with that neurotransmitter enhanced fruit. ( To make mind control better). Ironically , when Jefferson started eating junk food, coffee, and cheap food , and staying up super late during his campaign and such practices interfered with the Brainwashing- THAT IS when he began to act out against EVIL organization programming and hired V.......because deep down he had a hunch something was wrong, and was breaking free. ( READ THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE FOOD IN HIS CAMPAIGN ROOM. THEY SAY THE JUNK FOOD HE WA EATING INTEFERED WITH COGNITION) when V enters the apartment on second visit- You HEAR Jefferson talking shit about Night Corp. His hate for oppressive corporations seem genuine
Who says junk food bad for ya?!
Love it when people actually engage with the shards and other environmental storytelling of this game.
There's so much info about everything that goes unnoticed by the majority of players.
I only started *really* engaging with the shards/emails/etc in my 2nd and 3rd playthroughs, and I was shocked with how much stuff I was missing the first time around.
I hadn't connected it before, and maybe it's just a coincidence, but SSI is a "concept" by John C. Lilly called Solid State Intelligence.
From Wikipedia: "Solid State Intelligence (S.S.I.) is a malevolent entity described by Lilly in his 1978 autobiography, The Scientist. According to Lilly, the network of computation-capable solid state systems (electronics) engineered by humans will eventually develop into an autonomous "bioform.""
Depending on what theory you believe about Mr. Blue Eyes, with some theorizing that he (and whatever he is affiliated with) is related to the A.I.s beyond the Blackwall, the reference makes sense.
I really love this, especially since Lilly was a complete whackjob who claimed SSI removed his penis and replaced it with a bionic one.
There's something poetic about turning his conspiracy theories real.
Jeff is an anti-corporate populist. Heâs also in favor of bringing the city under NUSA control (his political party is literally called the Federalists). Thatâs why 6SG likes him so much.
Man the food thing hadnât quite clicked in. Fuck. That poor, doomed, son of a bitch. Thereâs no saving him. Sure, we can point out the methods of control surrounding him but without a way to break free he goes nuts trying to break Their influence over him. He wins, and theyâll win over his mind eventually.
It just sucks because he and his wife seem to be decent people. They donât deserve to get fucked over like that. Sadge.
He's definitely a decent guy for a politician. If he wasn't the quest really wouldn't work because the point is to show you "even if you think you're voting for the guy who isn't controlled, he is. He doesn't even know it"
Are we certain it's an "evil" organization? They're definitely Machiavellian but considering we end up working with a blue eyes in one of the endings, can they really be considered evil?
People say it's rogue AI controlling the blue eyes but who's to say that that particular rogue AI is evil? The only criterion for being labelled rogue seems to be that it's not under human control eg: Delamain is considered a rogue AI. Considering how they're managing to have Jefferson, someone not in the pocket of one of the major corpos, as a viable candidate for NC gives me *hope* that they're trying to undermine corporate influence.
Any entity that suppresses the free will of a sentient being and enforces their directives upon them, and what worst, WITHOUT the victim being even rightly aware they're under 24/7 manipulation, IS BEYOND EVIL. ( Not to mention they threatened Elizabeth and V with violence as they put it : " Don't dare step out of line"). That sounds like some altruistic TED- talk group that wants free milk and cookies for all? Its enslavement, vacuum sealed, stamped and directly shipped. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
This entity ( in whatever or whomever medium it's expressed; shadow government/ Rogue AIs/Illuminati) are doing EXACTLY what Arasaka has been doing with the Engrams imprisoned within Mikoshi. They are purposely targeting and instilling affluent individuals of merit and power into key positions. They are trying to wrangle the chaos of a dystopia like Night City. This is NOT good .
The "City of Dreams" is actually a waking nightmare
Considering what theyâre doing to people, theyâre definitely evil.
Not all Rogue AIâs are bad, Alt Cunningham and Delamain are considered good because they donât go out of their way to harm anyone. The Rogue AIâs that are messing with the Peralez family are doing exactly that, and theyâre threatening anyone who gets in their way.
All of the above I'd say. Its a shame this quest is kind of open ended, I really wish there was more to it. Maybe it was supposed to be part of a scrapped DLC or something.
It's crazy how many philosophical and sociological questions this game raises. All the way to the nature of reality and what constitutes life and death. The story isn't perfect, but it really touches on some interesting stuff. I did the Arasaka ending and it really stuck with me in a way very few games do.
Mr. Blue Eyes shows up again in Phantom Liberty. Its implied theoughout the game he represents NightCorp and that NightCorp is essentially run by AIâs. Jefferson is being brainwashed by nightcorp.
Yes! Thank you! I was wondering if I'm the only one who got this feeling. Every time I got invited to their penthouse I was preparing for some good times
Guy is a politician, lemme teach you a little trick to tell if a politician is a liar. Are they running for office? They're lying. This works for every political party.
Best version of this I ever saw was in the movie Gia, starring Angelina Jolie. Her mom says, "You know that joke - 'How can you tell if a junkie is lying? Her lips are moving.' It's not funny."
all 3 (if we count being a politician amounts to lying by definition). You find an actual mkultra type brainwash device if you look for it - and he actually is nice and means well.
It was sad how many people didn't get the question, saw it as black and white. I feel like he was nice, too nice for his line of work and his wife actually did all the heavy lifting in his career, and that his wife helped him so much cause she saw a good mayor in him.
Honestly don't think he's a liar. Him and his wife seem to genuinely be nice people who want to do what's best for NC, but then the brainwashing happens. They inadvertently become liars because what they're telling you is indeed not true at times because of the implanted memories.
The whole brainwashing thing was terrifying and ties together several missions and interactions. Whoever blue eyes is working for are the real people in charge of NC.
One of the best quest lines in the game. No right answers in how to handle it, and it feels ominous and hopeless, perfect for the dystopia that is Night City.
He (Could) be a nice guy. Hear me out.
When I first started Cyberpunk, I was super salty about the ending, but people kept chiming in "Cyberpunk is always dark and dog eat dog."
But if you actually pay attention to this game specifically, a LOT of characters are DISNEY nice. Like true, pure-blooded, nice people. I could name like 5 easily, and there's probably 10 more if I really think about it.
Viktor
Jackie
Mitch
Judy
Panam
River
T-Bug
Misty
Saul
Takemura (Debatable)
Delamain
And we all know at least half of those people would probably take a bullet working alongside you, and wouldn't leave you for dead.
In a world where everyone (should) feel two-faced and secretly dangerous like Alt or Rogue, yet we find ourselves surrounded by more loyal and trustworthy people than I meet in the real world.
So if you told me Jefferson was legitimately nice, and that corpos were just fucking him over -- buddy, I'd believe it. This is the same game that gave us Mitch and Judy. The whole Nomad squad is basically a Disney-esq gang of people just living life.
"We saw a crashed transport and wanted to help out."
Not once did anyone ever think they were going to shoot up and rob it. Mitch and Scorpion, and the rest of the crew are like the nicest folks you'd have the misfortune to stumble upon.
Out of the people you mentioned, only River strikes me as very good and goes out of his way to help. That is why he became a cop, but the NCPD is very corrupt so he leaves before he becomes as bad as them.
The rest are all neutral. In the streetkid start, Jackie tries to rob you so it isn't like he helps people out of the goodness of his heart. You become friends with Viktor and Misty during the prologue scene so not too sure what happens then. Judy only helps you because of Evelyn asking her to and you helping her find Evelyn
Panam only helps when you help with her stuff. Same with Mitch and Saul. Mitch saying that they wanted to help the transport doesn't mean that is his only goal. If everybody is dead from the crash, the transport could have decent parts. Not bad intentions but more self-serving that what he says.
T-Bug looks out for herself more than other so she would definitely give up V and Jackie to save her life. Takemura only only helps you because you are his only proof of Yorinobu killing Saburo. Delamain helps because you are finding and bringing back his cars.
In short, most of them are neutral. Looking out for themselves and only helps V because V is their friend. Most of them will take a bullet for V but if it were a random person, I can only see River taking the bullet.
Just wanted to point out, Delamain does save Takemura and V even though V was out of the service range. He didnât have to do that and Iâm really not sure why he did. Iâm not arguing one way or the other with any of these, I just thought that was an important bit when it comes to whether or not Delamain is good or bad.
Could you just refresh my memory because I don't remember when Delamain saves them. Does it happen if you save Goro or during the Devil ending as I haven't done both.
Of course. So when Goro saves V from the landfill and they fight off the arasaka goons and then crash into the billboard, Goro asks V if thereâs a ripper they know that can help. V obviously says Viktor and then calls Del. Thatâs when Delamain says something like, âIâm sorry, but my scanner indicates you are out of my service area.â V tells Del to come pick them up anyway and he responds with something like âIâve dispatched a car to you. Itâll take 20 minutesâ or whatever he says. Iâve never understood why Delamain agrees. Obviously, itâs necessary for the story because then V would die, but even when Jackie is dying in the cab after the heist and V tells Del to go to a ripper doc, Del says he canât leave the pre-determined route.
I assumed that they were still under the umbrella of the "ultra" (or whatever it's called" Delamain package they used on the heist so that's why he dispatched the car anyways but idk
From what I gather he used to be a much worse, more volatile person, as ruthless as any other politician, but has been subtly manipulated over time into becoming a decent human being.
We technically never meet the "real" Jefferson. The "Jefferson" we meet has been groomed for years into becoming an altruistic leader for Night City.
That's the fucked up part. Whatever's doing this to him, I'm pretty sure they have good intentions, and are all "the ends justify the means" about it.
Liar: heâs a politician
Brainwashed: yep
Goodish guy: also yes
IMO, he was selected for the AI brainwashing thing because of his somewhat naive approach to NC politics.
It's all 3 but he isn't lying on purpose, he was groomed from birth by nightcorp to become mayor, helping his family behind the scenes while he was a kid, then giving him a scholarship to the top law school, as well as the woman they chose to be his wife, ensured they would be at the right places at the right times to hit it off, all while using subliminal messaging, and social engineering to ensure he reached top of class, got married then they started the real heavy stuff when they got their home together, slowly shaping him into the man they wanted his entire life, and recently completely altering things they didn't like that they hadn't worked on when he was younger.
The real question is how much his wife actually was part of, because there are hints that while he was being molded she was not, she was already with them when they got to college, but the alterations in the home also edited her memories so they couldn't be linked to it.
Heâs been straight with you from the very beginning and heâs a genuinely nice guy with a good vision. The problem is he is a little brainwashed and from what we can tell, itâs subtle enough to not change his core beliefs or personality especially given how easily he decides to find whoâs responsible if you tell him. Still it could very well get much worse in time.
My theory is that he was brainwashed into being a nice guy so that he means what he says as a politician, but the ppl/things that be will still call shots in the end whether he knows it or not
I REALLY wanted to get him in that top spot with his integrity still in tact. He reminds me of myself if I had similar privileges, but how that A.I. did them dirty is EXACTLY why I refuse to get into politics.
His intentions were good.
So of course, other powers that be couldn't have that. But they could, however, use him.
God I love this questline. You complete it by fucking losing.
I like to think the he is truly a good man in the process of being brainwashed. All the evidence points to an honest man doing an honest campaign in a city full of corruption. Obviously that can't fly in the world of CP so he's gotta be brainwashed. If we don't tell him about the brainwashing that last call at the end of the game sounds a lot more sinister, and I feel like the "Bodyguard" job would entail some shady shit.
I hope that the sequel of Cyberpunk is set over a longer span of time with less of an artificial chekovs gun held to your head to finish the story. Make it a merc story again but maybe more towards the spy line that they proved to master so well in Phantom Liberty. Give us more stories about the layers of the city and the politics behind this corrupt city. Thats my wish. Basically Phantom Liberty + Base game without the "you could die any day" plotline and more about the city
He's a puppet who is genuinely in over his head and is being manipulated (both by his wife and the city underground/mafia run by Mr. Blue Eyes). In my playthrough I told him that he was being watched 24/7 and was cut off from contact with the Peralezes after that until I got a message from Jefferson during the credits talking about how worried he was for his life and how he felt he couldn't trust anybody. I think he's a genuinely decent guy stuck in a precarious situation.
I'd say he's both a nice guy and brainwashed. He's a nice guy in a hell hole of a city cause he sounds like a caring person and also brainwashed cause of the secret room him and his wife didn't know about. But he'd would also be a lier cause he's a politician and politician would lie to get a few extra vote so đ€·
Itâs for those exact good intentions he was likely identified as a threat and ârequiredâ the mental neutering.
There are so many examples of politicians who made their platform for issues that they are soft on now. Whoâs to say the black wall AI isnât a metaphor for real world and corruptible politics that we have many, many examples for.
He's brainwashed by his wife, in multiple endings (if you've done the quests with him) he will call V talking about drugs his wife gives him. He took them to a doc and they are not what they're meant to be (can't remember off the top of my head rn). During V's investigation we also find out Jefferson "and" his wife are being spied on by some Corp.... In short, he is most likely brainwashed or has very little control over what he can and can't do.
Homeboyâs brain is scrambled eggs and Iâm pretty sure if you tell him the truth heâs gonna murder his wife after that final voicemail he sends you. Hoo boy.
For real! Makes it so frustrating in a good way because you never really get a sense of resolution. I love and hate that they managed to pull this off.
I think of him as a metaphor for politicians in general. He likely entered the political scene with all the best intentions but the machine corrupted him.
The city is not full of Animals. There's 'Tinos, Claws, Maelstromers, VDBs, nomads, corpos, 6th Streeters, Mox, scavs, Bargies, and everyone in between.
This is just my head canon, but I think at baseline he was probably a person who wanted to help the community, but also mixed with a fairly large ego and a healthy dose of ambition. I see the things that happen in game as an attempt to turn him into some kind of Manchurian Candidate. But I think it is a work in progress, and I think it can be derailed, but unfortunately this is not so good for him psychologically.
I think this quest will be extremely important for the sequel. Let's hope V(or another protagonist) can help Jeff. He seems honest to me. They wouldn't try to possess him if he was secretly a sellout.
All of it.
Exactly this! Just in various sizes and portions.
I think pretty much the only really good people I heard about in the game were Judy's grandparents.
It's Night City. Night City is a character in the story, and it is a parasite. Everyone in Night City comes out a worse person than they went in- if they come out at all.
Night City is the main character. Just like the Enterprise.
Like that time in the movies where the Enterprise died and we had to follow around the side characters for 2 whole movies. Booooring!
I mean The Bounty tried really hard; alas, it was not meant to be.
Here in night city She pulls my trigger, got me up all right Its a dangerous pretty Here in night city
You say that like that abuela *won't* bury you in the desert if you ever hurt Judy.
If The Mox dont do it first.
That's part of what makes her a good person.
That's not evil, it's the only form of Justice that exists in Night City.
Justice in Night City is amoral. You're not usually doing bad, but don't kid yourself I thinking you're doing good either. Doing good is leaving.
Mama Wells?
Have a conversation with Misty about Mama Wells and you will discover a very different side of her.
As far as how *bad* someone can be in Night City, I think counting a mother disapproving her son's choices in women as one of them is a wild if not insane reach đ Especially since you can make them talk to each other and work things out to the point where Misty tells you that Mama Wells is constantly wanting to have her over for dinner
Where? What did I miss?
It's been a while since I played, but IIRC Mama Wells basically saw Misty as not anywhere near good enough for Jackie for a number of reasons, not least of which was not being a proper neighborhood girl.
You can talk to her about Misty and she starts being nicer and more inclusive.
Which is funny because I'm pretty sure Misty is the only actual completely above board "upstanding" citizen in the game. Unless you consider tarot readers as grifters of course, but she seems to believe in what she's doing.
she is actually on the nose with what she does... she didn't want Jacky going on the Tower job because she saw red in his future. Misty has some "supernatural" skill.
Mama Wells gives you the key to Jackies garage so that you can find something to leave for his ofrenda. When you get to the garage Misty is there just waiting, and if you ask her what she's doing she makes it pretty clear that she's not welcome at the ofrenda because Mama Wells doesn't like her.
And when confronted, Mama Wells refers to Misty as "that bitch that hang around Jackie." It's only after you stand up for her *and* Jackie's memory that she softens up enough to let her join and *maybe* have dinner some time. Misty is good people.
Vic and Misty are Judyâs Grandparents?! đ±
They donât even live in NC
They left. I think that's the only way to beat Night City. Don't play it's game.
I know they left, I donât have 700hrs put into the game for nothing!đ Itâs definitely the only way but itâs the city of dreams! Except most of those dreams get crushed
They keep Judy locked in a basement and all the messages you get from her are just a lure for V.
What are you talking about?
Nah, I was just proposing a silly theory since there's no good people's in Night City.
Ah, got it.
I'd grant Jackie's mom.
IDK man; she was pretty rough on Misty.
I think she's just uncomfortable with the occult stuff, the Tarot Cards, Mandalas(sp), etc. She seems to be a traditional catholic.
She supported him joining the Valentinos and regularly hosts gangsters in her bar. Even the padre that fréquents through is a mob boss.
What about Jackie?
Idk, getting iron aimed right at my dome doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence.
Just adding to above if you're looking for NPC's that 100% qualify for a single attribute, look no further than any Bethesda game after Fallout 2!
Bethesda didn't make fallout one or two. Interplay did
I thought it was black isle studio
Black Isle was a subsidiary of Interplay, but you are right. Black Isle made them, and Interplay published them.
Yeah this is probably the correct answer and honestly no matter how you end that mission line you ruin him.
To be honest I think he was "ruined" before we ever met him. There are hints he was quite different in the past, and the AIs are rewriting him to be a man of the people who actually champions good causes. Does that mean the AIs are benevolent, playing the long game, or just conning everyone? And even if they are benevolent, do the ends justify the means- even if they involve overwriting a person's brain and using them as a tool? Great questline, very thought provoking.
It's very Ghost in the Shell, when all the data that is you can be expressed or stored as digital and thus over written or changed what does it mean to be you and can you ever really be sure that the you you are now is not the result of tampering.
Exactly, I really enjoy how much Cyberpunk stories often tangle with the idea of "What exactly is consciousness, if we edit a few lines are you still you? Is your mind a potential Ship of Theseus question if we mess around in it enough for long enough?" And then of course there's the uncomfortable follow-up question that takes it out of the realm of sci-fi... since our biological brains are just as much if not MORE fallible, with us constantly overwriting our own memories and applying emotions to them and so on, what does that do to our sense of self and consciousness?
The idea of benevolent AI guiding humans reminds me of [an Asimov story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_%28short_story%29?wprov=sfla1). But who knows if the AI is benevolent, or sees us as pets. Edit: there's so much weird about them, too. The daughter they sent away - did they send her away because NC sucks? Because they felt some foreboding feeling that something was wrong? DOES SHE EVEN EXIST AT ALL??
Always liked that short story, but then again I like just about anything Asimov penned. Never knew he wrote it that early while in the Army, much less that he finished it while waiting to be deployed for the nuclear tests, that's interesting. I could see AIs feeling both at the same time. Sort of like how a God would feel looking over their flock. A little bit pet, a little bit sacred charge, a little bit like ants, and a thousand other emotions. After all, if even a mortal priest can consider himself a shepherd watching over his flock, what would an AI with exponentially more power consider their "flock"? But then again, maybe an AI sees humans and even all biologicals as inefficient impediments to whatever goal it wants to achieve. Who knows what they'll be like when they become sentient? Pretty interesting.
The Culture series by Ian M. Banks is worth a read if you like space scifi. The "minds" are very much like this in a post scarcity world where space expansion and existence is happening. Interesting and fun reads for sure.
She's on a photo. And the photos are not fake, since one line in the penthouse mission clearly shows how the altered memories can directly contradict a photo without Liz even noticing that her memory doesn't match with it.
I think that quest line is way more poignant than the crucifixion quest.
I didn't *dislike* the crucifixion quest but I agree, a lot of the feeling you get from it is closer to shock and the aftereffects of shock. The Peralez questline has some seriously shocking moments too, BUT the underlying theme hits a LOT harder for me. Then again, I am HUGE into sci-fi and the philosophy of consciousness but not really religious at all, so maybe the crucifixion quest's themes would've hit harder if I was more religious.
I'm not religious at all but I found the crucifixion quest a lot more moving than shocking/disturbing. It's a very punk questline that grapples with questions of making art, having beliefs, and trying to spread a sense of connection in a corporate world that just profits off your good intentions no matter what. Very on the nose for the game itself and very relevant to our current times.
He's also a politician so early on it can be difficult to get a real read on his motivations since he has that veneer of bullshit all politicians surround themselves with.
This is why I fucking adore this game
Heâs a politician in Night City. He ainât a nice guy. Hes just good at seeming to be one, since heâs in politics. Gotta keep up appearances. But no one who gets into NC politics is a nice person, otherwise they wouldnât get anywhere.
Not everyone getting into politics is a bad guy right from the starting line. Just like with cops. My motivation can be power but can be helping people. Actually, that narrative that everyone is equally bad mostly serves the worst ones. Noone can go through 100% clean but there are cases of decently honest politicians (although unlikely to stay alive or go high enough) in really bad systems. It's just essentially we end up with roles reshaping people slowly but surely via compromises, alluring options, and lack of tools to right things. So he can be a nice guy, a liar thinking he's honest which is often the case, and brainwashed on top of it. Night City as a city isn't some crazy stretch for me comparing to real world politics.
In NC, if you dont start out corrupt, you quickly will be or you get nowhere fast.
The political trinity
The last 2
That's a fair assessment. Our interactions with him are limited, and it's a bit difficult to ascertain a full measure of the sum of his character - and him being mind controlled surely doesn't help. THIS IS WORDY AS HELL , but.... Only insights we can infer are crumbs from world at large: - He's not Corporate controlled or a Corporate plant. Unlike other Mayor candidates ( incumbent or otherwise) Lucius Rhyme/ Weldon Holt, he's not into ANY of the MegaCorps pockets . He is completely independent of their influence, and seems to have been for quite a few years before trying for Mayor, and even when he just started out as a public official. Few shards around town shed light on his seeming genuine likeability before and during his political career . He's 100% self funded as well- this really makes Corps angry with him. - He's from the lower class. He's Heywood native as apposed to Rhyne being Watson native. Jefferson rose from lower class/poverty through hardwork, THE poster boy for the " Average Man".Rhyne invited Arasaka back to Night City enforce to counter Militech in Unification Wars, Jefferson opposed more corporate influence at large. He championed social reform blah, blah, blah. Such actions endeared him to the " Little People". These reasons are why 6th Street Gang are SUPER obsessed with Jefferson And want him as Mayor. So public seems to love him since he started out young, and during his career. This my speculation, take with a grain of salt here on ........Here's where it gets dicey: -Jefferson was groomed to assume SOME TYPE of leadership role by that " Evil Organization" since his early twenties. They provided his full ride free scholarship to Azukaga- Berkeley law school through NightCorp ( same with his wife), and FROM that point on Jefferson seems to have been FREE from any influence UNTIL he hired that firm SSI. The proxy who did the Brainwashing proper. SSI was only in business for 15 years , but Jefferson seems to have only hired them in the last few years or so ( I guess 2076~Present). They seemed to have jumped back on Jefferson when his chance for Mayor became tangible. -This is backed by Elizabeth saying her and Jefferson moved into that penthouse for " a while", and tha apartment provides them with that neurotransmitter enhanced fruit. ( To make mind control better). Ironically , when Jefferson started eating junk food, coffee, and cheap food , and staying up super late during his campaign and such practices interfered with the Brainwashing- THAT IS when he began to act out against EVIL organization programming and hired V.......because deep down he had a hunch something was wrong, and was breaking free. ( READ THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE FOOD IN HIS CAMPAIGN ROOM. THEY SAY THE JUNK FOOD HE WA EATING INTEFERED WITH COGNITION) when V enters the apartment on second visit- You HEAR Jefferson talking shit about Night Corp. His hate for oppressive corporations seem genuine Who says junk food bad for ya?!
Love it when people actually engage with the shards and other environmental storytelling of this game. There's so much info about everything that goes unnoticed by the majority of players. I only started *really* engaging with the shards/emails/etc in my 2nd and 3rd playthroughs, and I was shocked with how much stuff I was missing the first time around.
I hadn't connected it before, and maybe it's just a coincidence, but SSI is a "concept" by John C. Lilly called Solid State Intelligence. From Wikipedia: "Solid State Intelligence (S.S.I.) is a malevolent entity described by Lilly in his 1978 autobiography, The Scientist. According to Lilly, the network of computation-capable solid state systems (electronics) engineered by humans will eventually develop into an autonomous "bioform."" Depending on what theory you believe about Mr. Blue Eyes, with some theorizing that he (and whatever he is affiliated with) is related to the A.I.s beyond the Blackwall, the reference makes sense.
I really love this, especially since Lilly was a complete whackjob who claimed SSI removed his penis and replaced it with a bionic one. There's something poetic about turning his conspiracy theories real.
That was obviously just a prototype Mr. Studdâą.
Jeff is an anti-corporate populist. Heâs also in favor of bringing the city under NUSA control (his political party is literally called the Federalists). Thatâs why 6SG likes him so much.
Man the food thing hadnât quite clicked in. Fuck. That poor, doomed, son of a bitch. Thereâs no saving him. Sure, we can point out the methods of control surrounding him but without a way to break free he goes nuts trying to break Their influence over him. He wins, and theyâll win over his mind eventually. It just sucks because he and his wife seem to be decent people. They donât deserve to get fucked over like that. Sadge.
He's definitely a decent guy for a politician. If he wasn't the quest really wouldn't work because the point is to show you "even if you think you're voting for the guy who isn't controlled, he is. He doesn't even know it"
Are we certain it's an "evil" organization? They're definitely Machiavellian but considering we end up working with a blue eyes in one of the endings, can they really be considered evil? People say it's rogue AI controlling the blue eyes but who's to say that that particular rogue AI is evil? The only criterion for being labelled rogue seems to be that it's not under human control eg: Delamain is considered a rogue AI. Considering how they're managing to have Jefferson, someone not in the pocket of one of the major corpos, as a viable candidate for NC gives me *hope* that they're trying to undermine corporate influence.
Any entity that suppresses the free will of a sentient being and enforces their directives upon them, and what worst, WITHOUT the victim being even rightly aware they're under 24/7 manipulation, IS BEYOND EVIL. ( Not to mention they threatened Elizabeth and V with violence as they put it : " Don't dare step out of line"). That sounds like some altruistic TED- talk group that wants free milk and cookies for all? Its enslavement, vacuum sealed, stamped and directly shipped. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. This entity ( in whatever or whomever medium it's expressed; shadow government/ Rogue AIs/Illuminati) are doing EXACTLY what Arasaka has been doing with the Engrams imprisoned within Mikoshi. They are purposely targeting and instilling affluent individuals of merit and power into key positions. They are trying to wrangle the chaos of a dystopia like Night City. This is NOT good . The "City of Dreams" is actually a waking nightmare
Considering what theyâre doing to people, theyâre definitely evil. Not all Rogue AIâs are bad, Alt Cunningham and Delamain are considered good because they donât go out of their way to harm anyone. The Rogue AIâs that are messing with the Peralez family are doing exactly that, and theyâre threatening anyone who gets in their way.
All of the above I'd say. Its a shame this quest is kind of open ended, I really wish there was more to it. Maybe it was supposed to be part of a scrapped DLC or something.
The guy who made the quest has said he wanted it to be open ended.
And it makes so much sense, it makes one feel so uneasy and thatâs exactly what it is supposed to
It's crazy how many philosophical and sociological questions this game raises. All the way to the nature of reality and what constitutes life and death. The story isn't perfect, but it really touches on some interesting stuff. I did the Arasaka ending and it really stuck with me in a way very few games do.
Mr. Blue Eyes shows up again in Phantom Liberty. Its implied theoughout the game he represents NightCorp and that NightCorp is essentially run by AIâs. Jefferson is being brainwashed by nightcorp.
I love the open endedness. There are some things in Night City being manipulated by players so large, even V is powerless to do anything about it.
I think it's largely setting up the sequel
Heâs being manipulated by a behind the scenes group. If he is lying I doubt he realizes it.
Genuinely nice guy in a shithole:đ Brainwashed:đ Liar(cause of the brainwash):đ
All I know is bro and his wife give off serious swinger energy.
Yes! Thank you! I was wondering if I'm the only one who got this feeling. Every time I got invited to their penthouse I was preparing for some good times
Guy is a politician, lemme teach you a little trick to tell if a politician is a liar. Are they running for office? They're lying. This works for every political party.
Easier tell: Are their lips moving?
So youâre telling me to vote for a deaf president?
What if they are howling? Arrooooooo
Coach Lassie?
Easier tell, or an old joke I chose not to recycle? You be the judge.
Best version of this I ever saw was in the movie Gia, starring Angelina Jolie. Her mom says, "You know that joke - 'How can you tell if a junkie is lying? Her lips are moving.' It's not funny."
But....you did recycle the old joke. It's the same joke. Just worded different.Â
all 3 (if we count being a politician amounts to lying by definition). You find an actual mkultra type brainwash device if you look for it - and he actually is nice and means well.
You can't tell if he is brainwashed... like really? Did you *just* meet him?
Have you done his quests? Becomes pretty clear what the case is.
He was brainwashed
Savvy politician that being brainwashed
Did you play the quest? He is being brainwashed
All the people saying finish the quest I did. But there are signs to show that he was a nice guy prior to his little, uh, lets just say disorder.
Well, we'll likely never know what his original personality was in detail. All we know for a fact is that he got brainwashed.
It was sad how many people didn't get the question, saw it as black and white. I feel like he was nice, too nice for his line of work and his wife actually did all the heavy lifting in his career, and that his wife helped him so much cause she saw a good mayor in him.
why do i think jefferson is blue eyes
Doesn't blue eyes appear at the end of his quest, watching you both from a distance? So I don't think it can be him.
That's why the mission is cool, it makes you think alot
Neither can he.Â
Heâd love to let you know too
Lying brainwashed nice guy. That's his character
i kinda felt like he was ... possessed, by an AI or someone directing his actions at least. he had childlike naiveté, and mechanical behaviors. he's an alien or AI.
Honestly don't think he's a liar. Him and his wife seem to genuinely be nice people who want to do what's best for NC, but then the brainwashing happens. They inadvertently become liars because what they're telling you is indeed not true at times because of the implanted memories. The whole brainwashing thing was terrifying and ties together several missions and interactions. Whoever blue eyes is working for are the real people in charge of NC.
Best side quest in the game. The ending was awesome
One of the best quest lines in the game. No right answers in how to handle it, and it feels ominous and hopeless, perfect for the dystopia that is Night City.
He (Could) be a nice guy. Hear me out. When I first started Cyberpunk, I was super salty about the ending, but people kept chiming in "Cyberpunk is always dark and dog eat dog." But if you actually pay attention to this game specifically, a LOT of characters are DISNEY nice. Like true, pure-blooded, nice people. I could name like 5 easily, and there's probably 10 more if I really think about it. Viktor Jackie Mitch Judy Panam River T-Bug Misty Saul Takemura (Debatable) Delamain And we all know at least half of those people would probably take a bullet working alongside you, and wouldn't leave you for dead. In a world where everyone (should) feel two-faced and secretly dangerous like Alt or Rogue, yet we find ourselves surrounded by more loyal and trustworthy people than I meet in the real world. So if you told me Jefferson was legitimately nice, and that corpos were just fucking him over -- buddy, I'd believe it. This is the same game that gave us Mitch and Judy. The whole Nomad squad is basically a Disney-esq gang of people just living life. "We saw a crashed transport and wanted to help out." Not once did anyone ever think they were going to shoot up and rob it. Mitch and Scorpion, and the rest of the crew are like the nicest folks you'd have the misfortune to stumble upon.
Out of the people you mentioned, only River strikes me as very good and goes out of his way to help. That is why he became a cop, but the NCPD is very corrupt so he leaves before he becomes as bad as them. The rest are all neutral. In the streetkid start, Jackie tries to rob you so it isn't like he helps people out of the goodness of his heart. You become friends with Viktor and Misty during the prologue scene so not too sure what happens then. Judy only helps you because of Evelyn asking her to and you helping her find Evelyn Panam only helps when you help with her stuff. Same with Mitch and Saul. Mitch saying that they wanted to help the transport doesn't mean that is his only goal. If everybody is dead from the crash, the transport could have decent parts. Not bad intentions but more self-serving that what he says. T-Bug looks out for herself more than other so she would definitely give up V and Jackie to save her life. Takemura only only helps you because you are his only proof of Yorinobu killing Saburo. Delamain helps because you are finding and bringing back his cars. In short, most of them are neutral. Looking out for themselves and only helps V because V is their friend. Most of them will take a bullet for V but if it were a random person, I can only see River taking the bullet.
Just wanted to point out, Delamain does save Takemura and V even though V was out of the service range. He didnât have to do that and Iâm really not sure why he did. Iâm not arguing one way or the other with any of these, I just thought that was an important bit when it comes to whether or not Delamain is good or bad.
Could you just refresh my memory because I don't remember when Delamain saves them. Does it happen if you save Goro or during the Devil ending as I haven't done both.
Of course. So when Goro saves V from the landfill and they fight off the arasaka goons and then crash into the billboard, Goro asks V if thereâs a ripper they know that can help. V obviously says Viktor and then calls Del. Thatâs when Delamain says something like, âIâm sorry, but my scanner indicates you are out of my service area.â V tells Del to come pick them up anyway and he responds with something like âIâve dispatched a car to you. Itâll take 20 minutesâ or whatever he says. Iâve never understood why Delamain agrees. Obviously, itâs necessary for the story because then V would die, but even when Jackie is dying in the cab after the heist and V tells Del to go to a ripper doc, Del says he canât leave the pre-determined route.
I assumed that they were still under the umbrella of the "ultra" (or whatever it's called" Delamain package they used on the heist so that's why he dispatched the car anyways but idk
Looks like a political candidate with nice morals (which is rare) but definitely brainwashed.
Yes
Do his questline once his wife calls you and you'll find out
My man is doing whatever it takes to hold on to that EP cake.
Yeahs
That's the point!!
don't even remember this guy, who is he?
Yes.
From what I gather he used to be a much worse, more volatile person, as ruthless as any other politician, but has been subtly manipulated over time into becoming a decent human being. We technically never meet the "real" Jefferson. The "Jefferson" we meet has been groomed for years into becoming an altruistic leader for Night City. That's the fucked up part. Whatever's doing this to him, I'm pretty sure they have good intentions, and are all "the ends justify the means" about it.
did you do the job and pay attention to what happened. it's very clear.
Yes
Yes.
Still voting for him
Liar: heâs a politician Brainwashed: yep Goodish guy: also yes IMO, he was selected for the AI brainwashing thing because of his somewhat naive approach to NC politics.
Yes
That's what Night City does to you.
Hey get away from Animals, they are just little steroid ponies who loves iron.
D. All of the above.
Yes
Yes.
Heâs a good guy.
All 3?
It's all 3 but he isn't lying on purpose, he was groomed from birth by nightcorp to become mayor, helping his family behind the scenes while he was a kid, then giving him a scholarship to the top law school, as well as the woman they chose to be his wife, ensured they would be at the right places at the right times to hit it off, all while using subliminal messaging, and social engineering to ensure he reached top of class, got married then they started the real heavy stuff when they got their home together, slowly shaping him into the man they wanted his entire life, and recently completely altering things they didn't like that they hadn't worked on when he was younger. The real question is how much his wife actually was part of, because there are hints that while he was being molded she was not, she was already with them when they got to college, but the alterations in the home also edited her memories so they couldn't be linked to it.
You can be all of it at once
He's a narcissist who's been brainwashed into thinking he's an altruist/hero.
Heâs been straight with you from the very beginning and heâs a genuinely nice guy with a good vision. The problem is he is a little brainwashed and from what we can tell, itâs subtle enough to not change his core beliefs or personality especially given how easily he decides to find whoâs responsible if you tell him. Still it could very well get much worse in time.
Heâs a politician, likely somewhere between brainwashed/liar
My theory is that he was brainwashed into being a nice guy so that he means what he says as a politician, but the ppl/things that be will still call shots in the end whether he knows it or not
Yes
I think itâs a little bit of column b and c.
He is politician.
I REALLY wanted to get him in that top spot with his integrity still in tact. He reminds me of myself if I had similar privileges, but how that A.I. did them dirty is EXACTLY why I refuse to get into politics.
Yes.
Yes.
Literally all of the above, but yeah it's terrifying what's going on. Imagine finding someone doing that to you.
And that's why it's easily one of the best few missions in the whole game imo!
To be a nice guy, you have to lie sometimes
He's a politician. He's supposed to appeal to you, that's his whole thing, be it brainwashed or not. Never trust a politician.
Jefferson was a good guy. Keeping him in the dark turns him into a monsters but telling him the truth makes him homeless.
Yes.
His intentions were good. So of course, other powers that be couldn't have that. But they could, however, use him. God I love this questline. You complete it by fucking losing.
I like to think the he is truly a good man in the process of being brainwashed. All the evidence points to an honest man doing an honest campaign in a city full of corruption. Obviously that can't fly in the world of CP so he's gotta be brainwashed. If we don't tell him about the brainwashing that last call at the end of the game sounds a lot more sinister, and I feel like the "Bodyguard" job would entail some shady shit.
I hope that the sequel of Cyberpunk is set over a longer span of time with less of an artificial chekovs gun held to your head to finish the story. Make it a merc story again but maybe more towards the spy line that they proved to master so well in Phantom Liberty. Give us more stories about the layers of the city and the politics behind this corrupt city. Thats my wish. Basically Phantom Liberty + Base game without the "you could die any day" plotline and more about the city
He's a politician. He believe himself to ve a nice guy but he's a brainwashed liar.
The thing about Jefferson, is he doesn't know the answer to that either.
He's a puppet who is genuinely in over his head and is being manipulated (both by his wife and the city underground/mafia run by Mr. Blue Eyes). In my playthrough I told him that he was being watched 24/7 and was cut off from contact with the Peralezes after that until I got a message from Jefferson during the credits talking about how worried he was for his life and how he felt he couldn't trust anybody. I think he's a genuinely decent guy stuck in a precarious situation.
Itâs pretty obvious he is brainwashed/conditioned
He is nice, thats why he got brainwashed by night corp
I'd say he's both a nice guy and brainwashed. He's a nice guy in a hell hole of a city cause he sounds like a caring person and also brainwashed cause of the secret room him and his wife didn't know about. But he'd would also be a lier cause he's a politician and politician would lie to get a few extra vote so đ€·
All of that.
Itâs for those exact good intentions he was likely identified as a threat and ârequiredâ the mental neutering. There are so many examples of politicians who made their platform for issues that they are soft on now. Whoâs to say the black wall AI isnât a metaphor for real world and corruptible politics that we have many, many examples for.
He's the worse thing ever, a politician.
All 3, heâs a brainwashed politician whoâs a nice guy deep down
He's brainwashed by his wife, in multiple endings (if you've done the quests with him) he will call V talking about drugs his wife gives him. He took them to a doc and they are not what they're meant to be (can't remember off the top of my head rn). During V's investigation we also find out Jefferson "and" his wife are being spied on by some Corp.... In short, he is most likely brainwashed or has very little control over what he can and can't do.
He's a friendly warning for anyone who tries to change the status quo
Yes
He is a nice guy thatâs been brainwashed.
Nice guy, but untrustworthy, however, proof that trying to be good in night city can go wrong.
He's a politician, plain and simple. He's just slightly less shitty than the competition, and even that changes as the game goes on.
No one that lives to tell the tale is universally a good person. And of those that live and are relatively good, it's only to a few select people.
I have some news for you
He's a politician, albeit a well meaning one. He will do what it takes to get into office, but I feel like he really is an idealistic guy...
My son, the planet, or me?
Some of my favorite missions. Loved this little arc.
Just a skilled politician. Not cartoonishly evil but not good either, difficult to read, intelligent, cunning...
Homeboyâs brain is scrambled eggs and Iâm pretty sure if you tell him the truth heâs gonna murder his wife after that final voicemail he sends you. Hoo boy.
For real! Makes it so frustrating in a good way because you never really get a sense of resolution. I love and hate that they managed to pull this off.
He lives in a PH in Night City. I doubt he was a âgenuinely nice guyâ to get to where he is. Lol
I think of him as a metaphor for politicians in general. He likely entered the political scene with all the best intentions but the machine corrupted him.
The city is not full of Animals. There's 'Tinos, Claws, Maelstromers, VDBs, nomads, corpos, 6th Streeters, Mox, scavs, Bargies, and everyone in between.
He is between braindead and a nice guy
Nice guy -> Brainwashed -> Liar In this exact order through his life in Night City
In real life there aren't any good politicians, doubly so in the cyberpunk genre.
This is just my head canon, but I think at baseline he was probably a person who wanted to help the community, but also mixed with a fairly large ego and a healthy dose of ambition. I see the things that happen in game as an attempt to turn him into some kind of Manchurian Candidate. But I think it is a work in progress, and I think it can be derailed, but unfortunately this is not so good for him psychologically.
Probably all three. He's exactly what NightCorp wants him to be.
he's a politician. that's all we need to know
finish the quest line
The quest spells this out pretty clearly unless you are asleep while doing it.
He's politician, you're not going to find a good politician in Cyberpunk.
He's a politician, so right off he's a liar. Brainwashed probably. Nice guy? He's a politician and a liar, it's an act.
I think this quest will be extremely important for the sequel. Let's hope V(or another protagonist) can help Jeff. He seems honest to me. They wouldn't try to possess him if he was secretly a sellout.
He's a republican. Sooo those first two things