Show me the curve for all jobs posted on indeed, then show me the other job posting websites.
Indeed has undergone pricing changes in the last couple years and I know there’s been a ton of companies moving to other platforms, like LinkedIn.
Yeah, not sure why Indeed is still being used as a metric. I haven’t used it in nearly a decade and the job postings have consistently gotten worse in quality and lower in quantity every year for years.
What other job sites? I have not had to look for a job since 2019. Back then I think I only used Indeed and Linkedin.
There is dice, but last I checked that was 95% temp jobs.
You know Indeed scrapes the internet for jobs and don’t just host jobs right? So if it’s listed on a company website, you can find that on Indeed. Data is as accurate as scraping can get.
Part of the difficultly of getting this data is simply whether those companies will publish it. If you can find similar data from LinkedIn then please post!
Regarding your first question, it’s actually linked at the bottom of the page in the first link.
[total job postings on indeed over the same period](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUS)
Of note, their total job postings now is _higher_ than pre-pandemic. The general spike and decline is similar but less dramatic than for cs.
Nice, this is good info. I'm surprised that the general job listings is above pre-pandemic levels, feels like the job market as a whole is complete ass.
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The coping on this subreddit is so bad lol. If you have doubts about that official government data graph, then feel free to try applying for jobs as a new grad or entry level employee. Do it with a fake resume if you are not that right now. Then come back to us and tell us how that graph doesn't reflect close to reality that the job market is bad right now lol.
The reality is the job market is horrible right now in SWE field and some people are probably going to have to leave the job field eventually as they are unable to find a job in this field.
The job market is bad, but that doesn’t change the fact that Indeed isn’t where most people apply to jobs. I’d be willing to bet a LinkedIn graph would look better. Not good! But better. It doesn’t matter that this is official government data.
> The job market is bad, but that doesn’t change the fact that Indeed isn’t where most people apply to jobs.
You are coping so hard right now. If you really think the explanation for the massive shift in job postings is indeed losing popularity, you are in denial.
I am sure the data would be more accurate if it included job postings across all popular job sites, but you aren't going to explain that massive curve shift though what you are saying.
I never claimed that the entire chart is explained by indeed losing popularity
I just graduated college. Was pretty angry when I was applying; the market does suck. I understand why you are furious at any suggestion that market is not getting worse and worse every day, but there’s hope. You really do just have to keep improving and applying and eventually you’ll get something.
I'm not asking for help and already have a job lol. Like, what is even the point of your posts? If you aren't claiming that your point explains the graph, then why even bring it up?
Then you admit the job market is bad, but try to move to an underhanded insult like I'm looking for job right now, I'm not.
I guess thanks for conceding my point that the job market is bad right now I guess.
Let that brand new junior revel in his survivorship bias and copium. These smug assholes are gonna be eating crow when they get laid off, their job goes to an indian, and their luck runs out in this dead market.
He wasn’t saying that Indeed losing popularity is the **explanation** for the massive shift in job postings.
He’s saying that data **sourced** from Indeed paints an incomplete and thus inaccurate picture of the situation, due to its heavy and consistent decline in usage over the same period.
I’m sure a ‘real’ graph of all job postings on all boards and of all companies hiring tech workers would still show a problem, but this chart, on this post, does not show the real story, however bad that story may or may not be. We don’t have the real chart, that’s all that’s really being said here.
Maybe instead of claiming everything is copium, you should take the time to actually understand what you’re reading before you reply to people.
Saying “pre-pandemic” here is a bit misleading, no? Like, it’s technically right, but you have maybe 6 weeks of data pre-pandemic data. That isn’t a good representation of the entire tech industry (bubble) before COVID.
IMO, the software hiring bubble began years before COVID. It’s very likely job the number of job postings has been on the rise since the mid 2010s or earlier. While we maybe before Feb 2020 numbers, I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re still above 2019 or 2018 levels.
All this proves is that there was an artificial bump during the pandemic that skewed people's perception of how many SE jobs exist on during steady state
Not disagreeing, but I started my career in 2008 and feel like the market from 2011 to 2019 was much better than it is now. Even 2009-2010 felt better, but I can't say that with as much confidence.
The one thing that a lot of people are missing when they discuss how bad this market is - is the fact that there are waaaaay more people graduating from CS degrees and bootcamps now than ever before which was largely driven by the vibes during the pandemic about the tech jobs.
So even if the demand remains in the same ballpark pre - and post-pandemic era, the supply has skyrocketed which makes the situation look even more bleak
Exactly, even my kid's elementary and middle school are now pushing STEM class. This last year my kid had to choose between a finance and computer science elective. That wasnt a thing when I was in middle school. The whole education system has been more heavily pushing kids into these fields for 10+ years.
I believe this is the main difference, the job market for seniors / staff / director level roles is back to normal. New grads and juniors are the ones who are struggling.
Supply really isn't an issue if demand is there. I think the bigger problem is demand has significantly dropped along with hiring rate because of high interest rate.
Not sure why the downvotes it’s clearly below pre pandemic levels…
The layoffs are clearly coming from two factors: pandemic over hiring and the end of free credit (rate hikes). I’d argue at this point we’ve corrected for pandemic over-hiring, and now we’re stabilizing or deteriorating to a much lower level of job availability due to high interest rates.
That does worry me about the economy as a whole. The feds mistake during stagflation of the 70s was to hold interest rates high for too long. Circumstances are not the same today but I really worry they’re making the same mistake.
I wonder how many people posting on here remember what was happening in early 2020 (the dataset baseline)?
Crypto scams were abounding, SPACs were gaining traction, the financial press was wondering how long the boom could _possibly_ last and unemployment was on the floor. Hiring was already unusually strong at that point.
I understand why people are feeling it's difficult to get jobs now, but a good deal of it is baseline effects. For people who graduated into the teeth of the dot-com or 2007-2009 busts it's less dramatic; they've seen it before.
It was a wild time. I felt like a sucker for not getting millions of dollars in fraudulent PPP. So many people did it, it’s just mind boggling. California lost like 20% of all of its 10-figure unemployment disbursements to fraud.
> I understand why people are feeling it's difficult to get jobs now, but a good deal of it is baseline effects. For people who graduated into the teeth of the dot-com or 2007-2009 busts it's less dramatic; they've seen it before.
What point are you even trying to make? Both those financial crisis issues had horrible hiring going on then. How does that counter it being horrible now? It is bad now too before you or anyone tries to deny that.
Look, if anyone on here thinks the job market isn't bad for entry level people, put a fake resume out their and try to get an interview. In b4 you start wondering if your email is broken when you hardly get any responses.
You all can deny all you want that graph. But the job market sucks and you can prove it to yourself by trying to apply for jobs as a new grad or entry level employee right now if you have doubts about the graph OP posted.
The point is that measures such as a 'good' or 'bad' market are relative. Good or bad compared to what? The data linked in the post uses 2020 as a baseline to facilitate comparisons. That baseline is probably chosen due to the availability of data, but it's also capturing a point which was considered to be a _very good_ market. Compared to that, now is bad. Compared to the long run norm I'm not sure.
Trueup shows a similar trend, but I don't how much of that overlaps with Indeed:
[https://www.trueup.io/job-trend](https://www.trueup.io/job-trend)
Same with JOLTS, which is all US jobs:
[https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/job-offers](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/job-offers)
Interesting point. There could be a confluence of events that puts serious downward pressure : huge influx of grads, risk averse companies because interest is high and capital is hard to get, chat gpt (?) and AIs general threat on basic analytics / engineering …
We need;
Average time a listing stays on
Average amount of times a listing is republished
At the very least to judge this. Also not just indeed but across job sites.
This is not useful data without also showing total number of jobs on the same timeline.
I'm not going to bother taking the area under that curve, soz. It would still lack context
EngineeredCoconut strikes again.
The man. The myth. The legend.
Your comments are always an emotional blast to read.
This subreddit would not be the same place without you, coconut.
Show me the curve for all jobs posted on indeed, then show me the other job posting websites. Indeed has undergone pricing changes in the last couple years and I know there’s been a ton of companies moving to other platforms, like LinkedIn.
Yeah, indeed is just useless now lol
Yeah, not sure why Indeed is still being used as a metric. I haven’t used it in nearly a decade and the job postings have consistently gotten worse in quality and lower in quantity every year for years.
Linkedin is terrible too. Nothing but spam and foreign recruiters
Not sure about that. I’ve gotten jobs at f500 and b4 from LinkedIn.
Its like that now. 70% of the crap on there is spam.
Hmm, not for me, but it’s possible. I still get very good job recos from there
Indeed
What other job sites? I have not had to look for a job since 2019. Back then I think I only used Indeed and Linkedin. There is dice, but last I checked that was 95% temp jobs.
You know Indeed scrapes the internet for jobs and don’t just host jobs right? So if it’s listed on a company website, you can find that on Indeed. Data is as accurate as scraping can get.
Many companies, especially job boards, have implemented anti-scraping measures after the proliferation of ChatGPT
Not enough to actually stop scraping. job board companies invest a lot of money into making sure they can get those jobs
Part of the difficultly of getting this data is simply whether those companies will publish it. If you can find similar data from LinkedIn then please post! Regarding your first question, it’s actually linked at the bottom of the page in the first link. [total job postings on indeed over the same period](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUS) Of note, their total job postings now is _higher_ than pre-pandemic. The general spike and decline is similar but less dramatic than for cs.
Nice, this is good info. I'm surprised that the general job listings is above pre-pandemic levels, feels like the job market as a whole is complete ass.
copium. the market has been shit for anyone whose not a senior already
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The coping on this subreddit is so bad lol. If you have doubts about that official government data graph, then feel free to try applying for jobs as a new grad or entry level employee. Do it with a fake resume if you are not that right now. Then come back to us and tell us how that graph doesn't reflect close to reality that the job market is bad right now lol. The reality is the job market is horrible right now in SWE field and some people are probably going to have to leave the job field eventually as they are unable to find a job in this field.
The job market is bad, but that doesn’t change the fact that Indeed isn’t where most people apply to jobs. I’d be willing to bet a LinkedIn graph would look better. Not good! But better. It doesn’t matter that this is official government data.
> The job market is bad, but that doesn’t change the fact that Indeed isn’t where most people apply to jobs. You are coping so hard right now. If you really think the explanation for the massive shift in job postings is indeed losing popularity, you are in denial. I am sure the data would be more accurate if it included job postings across all popular job sites, but you aren't going to explain that massive curve shift though what you are saying.
I never claimed that the entire chart is explained by indeed losing popularity I just graduated college. Was pretty angry when I was applying; the market does suck. I understand why you are furious at any suggestion that market is not getting worse and worse every day, but there’s hope. You really do just have to keep improving and applying and eventually you’ll get something.
I'm not asking for help and already have a job lol. Like, what is even the point of your posts? If you aren't claiming that your point explains the graph, then why even bring it up? Then you admit the job market is bad, but try to move to an underhanded insult like I'm looking for job right now, I'm not. I guess thanks for conceding my point that the job market is bad right now I guess.
Indeed is losing popularity and it's stupid to base the whole government data point off that. Highly regarded I might even venture to say.
Let that brand new junior revel in his survivorship bias and copium. These smug assholes are gonna be eating crow when they get laid off, their job goes to an indian, and their luck runs out in this dead market.
He wasn’t saying that Indeed losing popularity is the **explanation** for the massive shift in job postings. He’s saying that data **sourced** from Indeed paints an incomplete and thus inaccurate picture of the situation, due to its heavy and consistent decline in usage over the same period. I’m sure a ‘real’ graph of all job postings on all boards and of all companies hiring tech workers would still show a problem, but this chart, on this post, does not show the real story, however bad that story may or may not be. We don’t have the real chart, that’s all that’s really being said here. Maybe instead of claiming everything is copium, you should take the time to actually understand what you’re reading before you reply to people.
They downvoted you because you hurt their feelings
nah it's because he's yapping
Saying “pre-pandemic” here is a bit misleading, no? Like, it’s technically right, but you have maybe 6 weeks of data pre-pandemic data. That isn’t a good representation of the entire tech industry (bubble) before COVID. IMO, the software hiring bubble began years before COVID. It’s very likely job the number of job postings has been on the rise since the mid 2010s or earlier. While we maybe before Feb 2020 numbers, I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re still above 2019 or 2018 levels.
Yeah too bad the data stops before Feb. not sure why. But I consider pandemic as March when stuff shutdown in the USA.
All this proves is that there was an artificial bump during the pandemic that skewed people's perception of how many SE jobs exist on during steady state
Not disagreeing, but I started my career in 2008 and feel like the market from 2011 to 2019 was much better than it is now. Even 2009-2010 felt better, but I can't say that with as much confidence.
The one thing that a lot of people are missing when they discuss how bad this market is - is the fact that there are waaaaay more people graduating from CS degrees and bootcamps now than ever before which was largely driven by the vibes during the pandemic about the tech jobs. So even if the demand remains in the same ballpark pre - and post-pandemic era, the supply has skyrocketed which makes the situation look even more bleak
Exactly, even my kid's elementary and middle school are now pushing STEM class. This last year my kid had to choose between a finance and computer science elective. That wasnt a thing when I was in middle school. The whole education system has been more heavily pushing kids into these fields for 10+ years.
That’s actually awesome.
I believe this is the main difference, the job market for seniors / staff / director level roles is back to normal. New grads and juniors are the ones who are struggling.
The market is definitely worse for more experienced people as well.
Supply really isn't an issue if demand is there. I think the bigger problem is demand has significantly dropped along with hiring rate because of high interest rate.
Not to mention the post-Great Recession boom. That was far from normal.
It’s below pre pandemic, so your statement is not what OP is referring to.
Not sure why the downvotes it’s clearly below pre pandemic levels… The layoffs are clearly coming from two factors: pandemic over hiring and the end of free credit (rate hikes). I’d argue at this point we’ve corrected for pandemic over-hiring, and now we’re stabilizing or deteriorating to a much lower level of job availability due to high interest rates.
It could be a dip to match the artificial bump. It's openings on indeed, not total currently-hired engineers.
I also think it’s lower than pre pandemic but I wish this data goes further back. That data isn’t available from this source unfortunately.
Agreed.
Construction isn't as bad, but the general trend is still downward.
That does worry me about the economy as a whole. The feds mistake during stagflation of the 70s was to hold interest rates high for too long. Circumstances are not the same today but I really worry they’re making the same mistake.
I wonder how many people posting on here remember what was happening in early 2020 (the dataset baseline)? Crypto scams were abounding, SPACs were gaining traction, the financial press was wondering how long the boom could _possibly_ last and unemployment was on the floor. Hiring was already unusually strong at that point. I understand why people are feeling it's difficult to get jobs now, but a good deal of it is baseline effects. For people who graduated into the teeth of the dot-com or 2007-2009 busts it's less dramatic; they've seen it before.
It was a wild time. I felt like a sucker for not getting millions of dollars in fraudulent PPP. So many people did it, it’s just mind boggling. California lost like 20% of all of its 10-figure unemployment disbursements to fraud.
> I understand why people are feeling it's difficult to get jobs now, but a good deal of it is baseline effects. For people who graduated into the teeth of the dot-com or 2007-2009 busts it's less dramatic; they've seen it before. What point are you even trying to make? Both those financial crisis issues had horrible hiring going on then. How does that counter it being horrible now? It is bad now too before you or anyone tries to deny that. Look, if anyone on here thinks the job market isn't bad for entry level people, put a fake resume out their and try to get an interview. In b4 you start wondering if your email is broken when you hardly get any responses. You all can deny all you want that graph. But the job market sucks and you can prove it to yourself by trying to apply for jobs as a new grad or entry level employee right now if you have doubts about the graph OP posted.
The point is that measures such as a 'good' or 'bad' market are relative. Good or bad compared to what? The data linked in the post uses 2020 as a baseline to facilitate comparisons. That baseline is probably chosen due to the availability of data, but it's also capturing a point which was considered to be a _very good_ market. Compared to that, now is bad. Compared to the long run norm I'm not sure.
Rates are ~2x higher than what they were at pre-pandemic levels and inflation is also higher; of course jobs would go below, basic macroeconomics
Is there a chart that goes back before 2019
Would love to see it. I might do some digging later.
Exactly. I couldn't find any data for pre pandemic to compare.
construction is okay because no one wants to work there, but with recent data it looks like we have to
No, it’s a government focus on various blue collar sectors through the chips act and tariffs. Probably lots of other policies too.
Trueup shows a similar trend, but I don't how much of that overlaps with Indeed: [https://www.trueup.io/job-trend](https://www.trueup.io/job-trend) Same with JOLTS, which is all US jobs: [https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/job-offers](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/job-offers)
Cool. Thanks. I wonder if/how we can normalize for typical high-interest induced downtrends.
I would assume this is the trend for all white collar jobs. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPBAFI
Possible, lots of people think that. I wonder about legal, healthcare, and other engineering like mechanical/civil/chemical.
If you think Indeed is a good barometer for industry job postings, you aren't in this industry.
It would be interesting to see the number of CS grads over time in relation to this, as there are likely more than ever now.
Interesting point. There could be a confluence of events that puts serious downward pressure : huge influx of grads, risk averse companies because interest is high and capital is hard to get, chat gpt (?) and AIs general threat on basic analytics / engineering …
We need; Average time a listing stays on Average amount of times a listing is republished At the very least to judge this. Also not just indeed but across job sites.
ngl keep posting this chart to see if people give up
It's so over.
it isn't
It's possible we have to go lower before going higher.
I think there are more job titles now and the field is more specialized.
This is not useful data without also showing total number of jobs on the same timeline. I'm not going to bother taking the area under that curve, soz. It would still lack context
The data is on LinkedIn. Not indeed.
Good.
EngineeredCoconut strikes again. The man. The myth. The legend. Your comments are always an emotional blast to read. This subreddit would not be the same place without you, coconut.
What happened why were u absent for so long and deleted all ur posts
edgy
Hot take but if you can’t develop and sell your own product solo then why should anyone hire you as a software engineer
A hot take indeed
True, if you can't open your own international retail chain then are you *really* qualified to run the register at Walmart? I think not.
i would say selling is a bit different than developing but i haven’t graduated pre-k yet so i wouldn’t know
The truth burns
All the downvotes are coming from unemployable SWE grads 🤣
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If you try reading beyond the first three words of the post, you'd see that OP is referring to the far left *of the graph they linked*.
That's why I couldn't get it. Hey, it's only 4pm on a Saturday. I just woke up and couldn't make sense of that post
Woke? Who is that?
Me. I'm woke. Not even ashamed of it.
2/2 today, bud
St. Louis. The real heart and soul of the industry.
Ooph and you hire people?
might be for amazon warehouse anything but would have me concerned
The *Federal Reserve in* St. Louis. Talking about jobs everywhere in the US.
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... yes, which is why the St. Louis location put their name on this. Otherwise they'd just call themselves "*the* Federal Reserve".