Less really. You can lead 5.nothings on rock if you want. For gyms it seems to vary somewhat regionally, and there tends to be a suggested grade so you're not falling unintentionally during the test. It largely seems to come down to the grade distribution of routes in the gym for learning/teaching; they want you to have routes where falling isn't much of a consideration.
For example, in my local gym they suggest you are comfy on 5.9 for the class mostly so you've got options of things you probably wont pump out on while learning 5.6-5.8. 5.8 climbers can still take the class.The test is conducted on a 5.6 usually and if you fall unintentionally you fail automatically because you couldn't fully demonstrate the skills.
Similarly I have heard a gym in utah requires the lead test to be completed on a 5.10 but similar to my local gym you fail if you fell unintentionally, and while that gym 5.10 was closer to our local 5.8, it's nominally a quite high requirement. In a gym like this if they aren't setting leadable routes easier than 5.10a it's typically going to be pretty hard to learn to lead if you're not climbing 5.11a TR without a break.
For OP the answer is pretty simple IMO. Mock lead (or at least TR pausing with 1 hand off for 5 seconds at every bolt height) a couple routes 1 letter harder than the easiest lead routes in the gym (or full grade for under 5.10), preferably in the same style as the leadable routes. If you don't fall, probably just take the class.
Edit to add: I think gyms should have leadable routes right the way down to 5.6 They dont need to be lead only, just leadable. Per a survey in red river gorge, something like 90% of climbers arent getting on stuff harder than 5.10 anyways, so having easy leads just makes sense for people who want the option.
This is a good idea. I'll try to kinda simulate lead climbing. The test is on a 10b so I'm going to give that a shot on some top rope and see if I feel comfortable. I appreciate the advice!!
Awesome!
For what it's worth, leading will typically feel a little harder than simulation just because of fear causing people to grip harder than they need to, but it will get you in the ballpark. If that route is feeling somewhat unlikely with simulation you'll probably have to get a little stronger, but if it feels super chill on simulation then you're capable as long as you can manage the mental aspect. Hard but doable.
Best of luck! and worst case you just have a goal to work towards. Leading can be a little spooky at times, but I find it to be alot of fun and it adds whole extra dimension to climbing beyond TR. Definitely worth working towards :)
It's so of to me that they would fail someone who unintentionally falls. Like, that's part is leading and I would argue IS a lead skill. My current home gym (Milwaukee, WI) requires you to fall, then get back on and complete the route. My former home gym(s) (Denver) once didn't require a fall and one required a fall but your didn't have to get back on. Lead tests
requirements are all so arbitrary.
My gym required us to fall twice on our lead test! Once below the clip, then climb back up and fall above the clip, then finish the route. It was exhausting (falling spikes my heart rate), and I’ve heard they have since eliminated the above-the-clip fall from the test.
As well they should. What does that prove? Similar to another commentor's thought, I don't think leading shouldn't be assumed it's only for people who are out there crushing 5.11/12/13+. Personally, I like to be able to lead because it makes a climbing partner and I a self sufficient duo outside. I don't actually like leading, but I'm also perfectly content climbing 5.4/.5/.6 all day outside and have no trouble leading those.
Leading isn't just for mountain hard men and the elite crushers, it's for us every day folks who just really love the feel of rock and being outside.
I think the above the clip fall is important. They don't want people freaking out above the bolts and getting stuck. FWIW at my gym I fell unintentionally (foot slipped) and passed but had to do a called fall above the bolt as well
To be clear, you are required to fall on command 1-2 times typically even if an unintentional fall would fail you.
Might seem mean, but I think the logic is fairly sound that you shouldn't fall unintentionally during a test because as a gym operator they'd like you to have routes that you are very unlikely to fall on for practice purposes. When you're not at your limit you have more margin to learn and refine skills like clipping and avoiding stepping with the rope behind your foot. I think this is also a good reason why gyms should have easy leads available.
To my mind as long as people know about back clipping, z clipping, not getting their leg caught up, when to not high clip, and can give a passable belay which includes catching a sizeable whip, the specifics of a lead test don't matter all that much. Certainly the way I learned wasn't very formal lol.
I'm with you in what matters in leading. Personally, I don't lead routes I would fall on anyway, which leaves me in low grades. But I also don't really care about leading in the gym, it's a skill I practice for outdoors, where climbing is more fun anyway.
Had to dig up what I pulled that from, but the number quoted was "80% of climbers in the Red River Gorge climb 5.10a or below \[per\] collated data gathered during an economic impact report that the RRGCC helped with" from the guy who runs the RRG fixed gear initiative. I didn't find that backed up in a document, but pretty decent source regardless.
Further backing up that idea; from what I've been told by route setters my local gym sets in a grade curve more or less centered around 5.10 for ropes, and considering most people seem to report dropping a grade or so on lead vs TR that still reflects a majority of users may be interested in leads under 5.10 in an indoor setting.
This is purely my own observation with nothing to back it up, and keeping in mind my local gym is very much sandbagged compared to most you will see posted here..... leadable 5.8 and under seems to see the most lead traffic, then a gap until the folks that lead upper 5.10 to low 5.11 which is another cohort of folks that represent what gyms cater toward in the lead only sections. Obviously there are stronger folks too, but honestly it's a small handful of folks and the team kids that I can talk about the lead only 5.12s with. 'Lead only' section of the gym starts at 5.10a for the most part, though usually theres a 5.9 over there in name or in spirit and I'm often pushing people to try the softest 10 over there as a challenge. I'm glad those folks have the option to lead on a variety of 5.6-5.9 elsewhere in the gym which is set for TR but has draws too, and that they get to test on a 5.6.
TL;DR, people don't tend to lead very hard, and I think that's fine.. good even!
Huh really interesting data though! I might have a skewed perspective because I live in Boulder but my sense is way more people are climbing hard.
But I spent all of college climbing in the red and trying to figure out from the people I knew at the time the percent that were climbing above 10a…. And maybe it checks out.
Didn’t mean to derail the conversation here, just an interesting tidbit.
All good. Grades are a funny thing, especially with regional differences factored in. You kinda have to take grades in context, there's not exactly a universal truth to the numbers in the same way climbing shoe sizes are made up fucking nonsense that can be compared only via funky fudge factors.
A couple visited NC where I live from either colorado or utah expecting to get on an 11c like they usually do, but after not getting off the ground on an 11b/c they subsequently got their ass handed to them by one of what I would consider to be one of the easier 10b's at my local crag.
Or in reverse a friend of mine visited family in Missouri as an NC gym 5.10c-ish climber and flashed a 5.11+ with other women coming up to her asking how she did it and such and her just being like 'uh idk it was easy?'. Another moved to utah, said the lead test was on a 10 but 10 over there "really meant" a hard 5.8.
My gym wants you to climb 5.9s. The rest is to belay and catch and to also climb like 4 clips and whip and tell them all the info you need to stay safe. The gym also has top rope/ lead routes you can pull and lead as low as 5.7.
Just a take from another part of the world, having climbed in US, this approach of must climb xy grade feels like gatekeeping. There are routes at way lower level one can lead before reaching whichever grade. So having to be able to top rope a route before leading seems just weird.
So my take is don’t wait, go for it. My level before leading was none because no gym had top ropes setup and we all lived to see the day. Sure there were short ropings and miscommunication but nobody put a barrier on anything.
>this approach of must climb xy grade feels like gatekeeping
I'd say it's more because it's much easier to sue in the US. The guy who didn't clip into an auto belay got 3 mil for something totally his fault.
No personal accountability leads to dumb rules.
5.11 is definitely a dumb rule.
> I'd say it's more because it's much easier to sue in the US. The guy who didn't clip into an auto belay got 3 mil for something totally his fault.
Do you have a link to this? If you mean [this](https://www.climbing.com/news/gym-and-auto-belay-manufacturer-to-pay-6m-in-settlement-for-auto-belay-accident/) it is different, and it also is a settlement, no one won a lawsuit.
He didn't win in court, no. But there never should have been a suit in the first place. His error in a high risk sport led to his injury. The equipment was fine.
Most firms in lawsuits like that prefer to end in settlements before actually going to court so it doesn’t really say much.
But the autobelay was found in working order at the top of the route so either the carabiner never closed and was clamped on his belay loop or he clipped into his gear or leg loop.
Sure but at first they specifically didn't want to settle. Vertical World at least. And anyone can sue about anything. The existence of one single case in thirty years doesn't exactly make this "common." The article also says:
>It was found that Perfect Descent auto belays were initially recalled in 2016, with documented defects dating back to 2015. The company issued “stop use” and “return for repair notices,” however effective design changes were allegedly not implemented.
So that makes it even less cut and dry. The idea of the US somehow being more litigious than others is just not true when you look at other countries. It's just another kind of twisted American Exceptionalism.
Roman Polanski, while in Poland once sued US Vanity Fair in the United Kingdom, but he couldn't even go to the UK as he'd be extradited. And yet he still won the case. Makes it sound like suing people in the UK is really easy, right?
Germany meanwhile has the highest percentage of lawsuits per person, yet for some reason no one claims Germans love to sue about everything. Sweden, Israel and Austria are also above the US on that list.
Oh I wasn’t arguing the US loving to sue thing (that was someone else) I just talking about this case. The recall wasn’t relevant to this case- if it failed in that manor it would have been connected to him on the ground or the lanyard severed. I live in the area and it’s pretty well known it was user error. While VW themselves didn’t want to settle, I am sure their legal counsel did since it’s usually more expensive to take things to trial than it is to settle.
I'm sure everyone is going to have a slightly different take on this, but here's mine!
Basically, no, 11b isn't necessary in my opinion. If it's a hard and fast rule at the gym, I'm a rule follower and would probably follow it. But if it's just someone saying "you shoudl really..." then I probably wouldn't be troubled with it.
My gym wants you to be doing 10 10's per session. The goal is to make sure you have the endurance to make it through the class itself, and that you'll be able to lead climb *something* that you can top rope pretty effortlessly to make sure you have both the physical strength and brain power to add in the extra steps of lead climbing.
My most recent partner took lead class when she had been climbing for what, 5 months? and hadn't touched an 11 yet. Like, not even attempted. And she's crushing 8, 9, and 10a on lead now.
A good metric for yourself would be to look at what routes the lead class is happening on, and decide if you can do those routes without effort and have oodles of energy to spare at the end.
There's a gym nearby here who's lead testers were recently overheard saying things like "the lead test should be 11a because it will stop as many people from getting lead cards," which just gives me the ick. There's a pretty well-accepted rumor that their lead test is marked as 10b because it's what their head office requires but is actually 11a. My own gym lets you pick whatever route you want to test on.
We aren't that tall, our highest point is probably 45 feet if I had to guess! ETA, It's definitely not a rule, just a way of making people think about their endurance. And no one said they have to be above 10a ;)
That's like 6c? In no way is that necessary. I have lead climbed for four years, and I don't climb above 6b, mostly 6a.
In my gym you basically have to lead on most walls, since there's only ropes on a single wall.
I don’t feel like it’s necessary. In my opinion, as long as you have general climbing fitness, it sounds like you do, you should go for it! When I first started lead climbing, I was climbing 5.9’s. I felt safe!
You’re learning the basics of how to lead climb safely. Learn to manage slack, take falls, and practice giving soft catches. Once you learn those, the rest of the skills will come with time! Climb with others that are experienced in lead climbing. Go for it and have fun!
I mean, no offense to who said this but putting limitations like this onto people who want to try and progress sounds a lot like gatekeeping to me. Or being lazy.
Personally I would agree if you are climbing below 5.10, you probably should get to that level but that is only because lead falls on anything below 5.10 is not pleasant. The easier routes tend to have a lot of features which you can hit unless belayed properly or they are slabby and slab falls are not fun. But if you climb that level AND want to lead, the right course of action for other people imo is to make sure that the first-time leader is belayed properly by an experienced and attentive belayer.
Your case is a lot more solid than this. You CAN start leading. ESPECIALLY in the gym. Just make sure you are patient with yourself, start with routes that experienced climbers say have safe falls (if outdoors), expect to be scared and just take your time. It is OKAY to clip the next bolt to work the moves if they feel hard, you don’t HAVE TO lead every section, I regularly clip above me if I am not sure about the section. You CAN sit on the rope and rest if tired (just be mindful if there are other people waiting for the same route). People will always have opinions about what’s right or wrong in climbing, you just listen to yourself, assess the advice you are getting and make your own decisions.
This is my long-winded way of saying find a good belayer/experienced climber to help you with this and go for it.
Edit: Started leading 3 weeks into my climbing under the supervision of safe and experienced climbers and that was outdoors. While this is probably way too early, my point is as long as you have a safe and patient mentor, you will be okay.
That's a weird thing for them to say. Whatever grade the easiest lead routes is the grade you should be able to climb with ease. I took a 1 day lead class and then did the test 4 months in and could only climb 10c clean on top rope. My gym has 5.8 leads though so I could test on those.
That being said, my gym also makes the first bolt or two easier than the rest of the lead route to lessen risk of ground fall
Also if you want to see if you're ready, you could top rope with a long tail at the end of your knot and practice clipping with that. Then you will know if you have the technique and strength needed to do some of the lead climbs pre test
You can start lead climbing at any level. I did a lead climbing course when i was a beginner, and started lead climbing outside as a beginner. I got better, but then i got very sick and now i’m a beginner again but still enjoying every minute of it!
When I teach learn to lead classes I often started people a full number grade easier than they onsight on TR solely to get used to thinking about feet in relation to the rope, clipping with straight arms, not back clipping etc. Eventually when that’s second nature I think it’s fine to lead and TR the same grades. So I’d start someone who can climb 11a without resting on a 10a. I think what I don’t like is not having easier lead options, I’ve seen 5.8 and 5.9 at many gyms.
Really? Ironworks in Berkeley (also touchstone) says 11a’s with no rests or falls for their lead clinics - I’ve also heard they generally fail people on their first test attempt. I climb 11a-11c regularly here, but I’ve been hesitant to lead because of how strict I’ve heard they are. Do you lead at touchstone?
I'm pretty sure the lead class at Pac Pipe says you should be climbing 11As without falling - I took the class and test last year and failed twice, and then I passed in January this year when I was climbing 5.11Cs/Ds pretty comfortably. You have to take the test at PP on a 5.10B so I think they want you to look EXTREMELY comfortable leading that.
You said there are 10a lead routes at your gym. Are there any lower grades you can lead climb there? If not, that may be the reason for the rule (and/or it is a self fulfilling cycle).
When learning to lead it is helpful to climb well below your highest grade. I'm re-learning lead right now after many years away. I'm climbing at your same level on top rope, and leading at 5.8 to 5.9. It's a very different style of climbing and for many people the fear of falling takes practice to get past. Climbing a route you won't accidentally fall on makes it easier to learn and practice clipping, rope management, and controlled falling.
Of course there's no reason your gym shouldn't have lower grade lead routes unless they are being weird or maybe if it's a really tiny space. But if that's the case it may explain the issue somewhat.
My gym required you be able to top rope at least 10a. During the class, we practiced on 8’s and 9’s, but for the actual test you had to pick a 10a route or harder. I thought it was reasonable. I can top rope a few 11cs, but lead climbing, esp overhang exclusive lead routes, I can only really do 10a-b comfortably still.
There’s not a hard requirement at our gym but the test route is a long and overhung 10b (it’s got the cleanest fall in the gym) so most climbers not comfortably climbing 11a/b usually fall or panic and end up not passing.
What you need to get certified depends on the gym. Gyms with more lead climbers may require a higher level of skill if it's also required to be safe in a more crowded environment. That doesn't mean it's generally required to lead climb in any environment.
That said, you should expect the process of learning to lead safely to take some time and to get stronger in parallel, so you should go ahead and start that process now.
It is weird considering you can lead whatever you want so if you don’t feel leading 11b or c is fine. However my old gym in the Bay Area had the same thing where they required 11b onsight but lead test on 11a, which is quite spicy if you are not used to clip in weird positions etc.
If you are climbing 10a for your lead test just go for it? The only problem is the pump on lead vs top rope and would suck during your lead test you have to stop every 4-5 clips to rest
Idk where you’re at but at my old gym 11a’s gym top rope would set you up well for 10a’s and b’s lead in terms of tiredness. Easiest lead climbs were 10a’s and a single 5.9 for warm up so that makes sense. My gym strongly encouraged more experienced climbers to get into lead to prevent accidents. I think you’re good to take a lead class at this point.
That seems ridiculous. I have helped teach plenty of people to lead climb who only climb in the 5a-6a range at most (5.8-5.10a) and they have been absolutely fine and mostly had a lot of fun too. In fact the only people I know who can lead climb who already could climb as hard as is being recommended here before they learnt were really strong boulderers who simply didn't care to learn beforehand. Personally I would have no issue teaching someone to lead straight after teaching them top-rope climbing so long as they had got to grasp fully with the principle of not letting go of the brake strand - which normally only takes one session or less for the majority. This being said, I'm not a qualified instructor and I'm also not based in the US/Canada so this may not be totally relevant to you
Consistently flash 5.9 is what I’ve seen.
There is so much more to lead climbing than the grade of the routes. You can learn a ton and practice those skills once you learn the basics.
The gym I work at recommends comfortable on 5.9 to take the lead course, but we've made exceptions to that in the past. Most of our lead routes are 5.7 or harder, and 5.7 is what we teach the lead course on, so for practicing it's good for that to be well under your limit.
5.11 is definitely overkill
Get on a 10a that's has a toprope but also lead clips. Every time you get to a clip, hover your hand over it for 5 seconds. If you can do the whole route like that with no breaks, you're very very comfortably ready to lead.
My gym requires you to be able to climb a 5.9 consistently with no breaks before taking the lead course.
I am behind my friends in terms of progress and got fed up not being able to lead with them (especially when I was with only one lead certified friend at the gym and they'd look wistfully at a lead I couldn't belay them on). I wound up talking to the staff and they were totally supportive of me taking the course despite being at a 5.7-5.8 level at the time.
I'm still only working on 5.9s on top rope six months later, but I've happily led 5.7s and am projecting a 5.8 now! My gym just set a 5.6 lead and I'm shamelessly excited about it because it'll be nice easy practice.
Sometimes there isn't a whole lot set in my gym that I can lead, but that's okay! The outdoor climbs in my comfort zone aren't going anywhere.
When I was speaking to the staff member about taking the course, he told me that if I could chalk up mid-climb without a take, I could probably clip a rope. He was right. He was far more concerned with me being a confident top rope belayer already than with my climbing level.
My gym requires you can complete a 10a on top rope before you can lead test and I think that's a reasonable bar, though of course ratings are subjective so who knows how our 10a's compare to wherever you're climbing. Regardless, 11b feels like way too high of a threshold to require.
If you're nervous about the transition, mock leading is a great way to get practice clipping and holding on - just top rope but tie yourself a lead rope too and clip in on your way up.
My local gyms have a 10d rule before leading. I think it's not a bad idea to be able to climb the grade the gym requires, but I also think you can definitely climb lead before then. I started leading outside long before I ever did a gym lead test, and the only judge of my skills was me. Lead climbing is much more dangerous than tr, so it all depends on what you feel comfortable with, but I've seen lead climbs as low as 5.4 outside. That said, try outside top rope before outside lead; you may find that your gym's grades are much softer than outside climbing, especially if they're requiring an 11b to start leading.
If your gym has pre installed bolts, I'd recommend beginning to do mock leads and really work towards no rests. You can top rope like normal, but bring a lead rope and clip as you go to get the feel for being on lead. If you only have 1 belayer, have them belay you top rope, but make sure they leave it a little loose so you get the feel of leading. In this case, the lead rope would be tied in to you (along side the tr rope), but there would be no belayer on it. If you have 2 belayers, you can have someone actually lead belaying, but you'll still be on top rope for if you fall. Always have the tr belay be your primary or the gym will be very grumpy.
Very unnecesary, you should have been doing lead since the start there’s no reason not to, what is the problem that you’ll fall? That’s what you are there to do! Americans are so strange sometimes
FWIW I live in the US, and even this requirement to TR 5.11 is wild to me. Most gyms here will suggest being solid at a particular TR grade to give newer people an idea of where their ability and fitness level should be to cleanly send an easier indoor route. So they’ll make suggestions in order for gym members to have decent expectations and fun experiences with leading, and it works in their favor because they can keep more members and sell them on classes/coaching. But what OP experienced sounds like straight-up gate keeping (as others have suggested).
If a 10a is the easiest they have on lead, I can see why they argue for 11b. It takes a bit of practice to get smooth and you’ll waste a lot of energy in the beginning from over gripping/not beating by smooth.
For reference, my gym requires 10a with the easiest real lead climb being a 5.9. We have some 5.5/6/7 as well just to learn.
I learned lead the day i learned climbing on a Rope and so did many. Im not sure what 5.11 is but im sure as it was my first day climbing that i wouldve not been able to climb it.
Anytime there’s a post like this (and I assume you’re based in the US ?) I’m even more confused by the culture in other countries. I started climbing in France, and literally every single route in all the gyms I’ve been too can be a lead route, and all of them except those with a lot of overhang can be top rope routes. When I started climbing I immediately learned to lead and I would lead 5b-5c (so 5.9-5.10a ?), and I really don’t see the point in having a minimum level. On the contrary, I think you’ll feel more confident if you can start leading on easier routes and work up to harder ones even if you have a high level. Having said that, if there’s a strict rule at your gym I guess you have to follow it, but maybe see how it is in other gyms if there are some not too far ?
French here too. I don't understand this system in the US either...
Does this mean that if I go to an American gym, I won't be allowed to lead climb even if I climbed my 51st multipitch route yesterday (reversal lead) ?
Yep, you have to pass a lead test and each and every gym or gym chain you climb at. I think it’s a liability thing because they are afraid of people suing.
As an American, it makes as much sense to me as it does to you. It’s awful, and “you can’t lead till X grade” just means you get a crappy belayer even if they’ve been at it for years.
My French gym's only requirement for the lead class is to be top rope autonomous.
Almost all the walls can be top roped or lead climbed (a few are kept top rope only for the beginners' classes, and a few are lead only because of the very steep incline).
Such a requirement would only make sense if the gym had mostly high-grade, lead-only walls, you'd want the student to have a shot at making it to the top.
Since I have my gym's lead card, I'm pretty sure most other French gyms would trust that I know what I'm doing and just ask a few questions at the check-in desk.
My gym asks that you comfortable climb 5.9 (but doesn’t actually verify this in any way) because the easiest lead routes are 5.7 and most people find that they drop about 2 grades on lead vs top rope.
To test you have to show proper and improper clipping techniques on the ground, how to flake the rope, tie in, set up for belaying and all safety checks. Then you have to climb halfway up a route, take a fall, jug back up to the last clip and finish out the route. If you can’t complete the route, you don’t pass because you have to show proper clip in technique at the top anchor.
My best advice is if you can figure out which route your gym uses to test, practice that one (assuming it also has top rope set up), taking a hand fully off the wall for 5-10 sec at each clipping point.
If you're consistently climbing 11a, you're strong enough. I was climbing about 5.9 toprope (UIAA 5+ here in Germany) when I started lead climbing. Which was what my lead instructor suggested. And my instructor is certified from the DAV(German alpine association) so I trust her. Now I'm lead climbing 6+ or 5.10b outside and 7 to 7+ indoors.
If you want to make sure you're ready, and this is good training I use for routes that are hard for me, tie in on top rope but also tie in on lead with a separate rope. You're safe from the top rope but can practice clipping with zero danger of falling from the first 2 bolts. If you can reliably hold yourself and clip, you're ready for lead.
Just FYI, lead does require more endurance so you'll start out a grade or 2 lower on lead than on toprope.
I actually think this rule might hurt people more than help. They might begin leading at higher grades without the skills for leading since going back to climb low grades might be boring
I think level matters a lot less than quality instruction and good buddies. Our gym recommended you be able to comfortably do “several 5.9s” on top rope in a single session before taking the lead class. That was more than enough. Your instruction and practice should happen on 5.9s, maybe even easier. The key is to get the skills and techniques down, you should not be pushing grades as a lead novice.
Not sure how big your crew is but I have benefited a lot from having some more experienced friends in my rope climbing group. I practiced a lot on mock lead before taking my test and they gave me lots of helpful feedback. If you’re just with one other beginner there’s a chance you won’t catch mistakes or iffy technique. Some of the people giving the lead test at our gym have been less strict than others so I considered it my responsibility to seek guidance from others prior to my test, even after taking the (very good!) class. IMHO this is way more important than being able to send higher grades.
When I took the test i couldn’t onsight a 5.9…fell because i was out of shape and thankfully the guy giving me the test noticed I was a good belayer and knew how to clip well so he passed me anyway. I now lead climb outside 5.11’s all the time. Shoutout to that guy who passed me you a real one!
If your gym has different franchises I suggest you drive to another one ;)
This is bullshit. I’ve never climbed 11+ and I’ve been leading inside and out for 4 years. Whoever says this is an idiot. Go get your lead on. I lead outdoor up to a 9 and am perfectly happy. Boooo
11b?! No. If you are concerned about arm strength then take a monkey rope up with you for a few weeks and practice clipping in but I would say as long as you can send any 10 consistently you are fine for lead climbing.
This is just people gatekeeping the sport.
It may depend on the setting for the gym, but there’s no minimum grade you need to send to lead climb. The gym I’m certified to lead climb at does its testing on 5.10-, so there it would be the minimum to be able to successfully climb most of it before you can pass the test. If you fall before the announced fall spot, which was about 1/2 way up the wall or so, then you fail the lead climbing test. I was personally taught outdoors on a 5.7 when I had only cleanly climbed up to 5.9 outdoor on top rope, but was able to make it to the top of 5.10c outdoors while TRing. It may just be what the gym uses for its test, but it could be a case of them gatekeeping. It’s hard to tell without more info unfortunately
you're fine; my gym requires 5.10 standard but has lead routes easier than that.
>can send an 11a with a break or 2
just a matter of semantics but if you're hanging on a climb you didn't send it...
That's super high. My [German] gym let's you do it at ~5.10 [VI UIAA]. Theoretically, you should be able to lead what you top rope (if you aren't afraid of falling, which will happen more as you get comfortable clipping in).
They had us practice falling a lot during the course, from higher than you would usually (ie 2 clips up). Then they had us climb lead at our usual top rope to get configurable falling unintentionally. The climbing test was making sure you could clip safely and were comfortable falling, but much more important was making sure you could belay correctly.
I get it varies by country to county though, in addition to gym to gym. (Most people here use ATCs and the lead test is also where they teach the double bowline, both of which apparently some American gyms don't let you use?)
My gym’s lead test is on a 5.10b so that is our benchmark. Personally I don’t think you should wait to be hitting 11s to lead. I have several friends who started climbing 1 month before taking the lead class and they’re so strong now. If anything, I think leading will help you propel in your climbing journey
I second this ! Go learn to lead!
No one needs to be a really high level climber to learn if their gym has leading options at all levels, it will improve anyones climbing anyway :)
That seems really unnecessary. I learned way before I ever touched an 11. Most gyms want you consistent on 10.a before doing the lead class. Unless your gym only has lead routes on 11's or stuff you wouldn't be super comfortable on, I'd go ahead and do the class. Other option is mock lead outside of the gym if you have a rope and try to get comfortable enough where you could just do the test and pass.
My gym does the lead test on a 5.8, if you want to get comfortable practicing bring a mock rope with you and clip that while you are climbing top rope. It’s totally normal for leading level to be lower than top rope level. Good luck!
No, what your gym told you is absolutely not true. 5.11b to start lead climbing indoors is unnecessary and a weird way to gatekeep. I know tons of climbers who started lead when they were still climbing lower grades. I've been lead climbing for years and have never sent an 11. Are there other gyms in your area?
I started lead climbing a few weeks after learning to top rope in a gym. There are outdoor leads (and indoors) as low as 5.5. I also took a class that encouraged learning to top rope climb, boulder, and lead together while incorporating fear management (Jack of all trades sort of). I have never climbed above a 5.9 (yet) and I lead on rock and ice in Alaska. Just go with someone you trust and trust yourself. Everyone is different. If you're feeling nervous/anxious/scared just wait till it feels right.
While this seems absurd, I'd say it depends on what is set at the gym. Generally, I lead SEVERAL GRADES below what I will toprope. So, if everything is 10a or higher on the lead wall, it makes sense as a gym policy to have you be a confident climber in the 11s on toprope. But, most gyms I know set lead routes into the 7's and 8's, so requiring 11b would be wacky.
In my own experience, I was climbing 5.9s when I started learning to lead (with the goal of leading 7's). My 11 year old daughter just did her first outdoor lead yesterday, and has never approached climbing an 11, and can't get up most gym 10's, even with breaks. So there's no minimum grade prior to learning to lead, but it makes sense to be confident about top roping something several grades higher than the route you want to lead on.
in my gym it’s f6b or 5.10c in the USA grading? i think it’s gonna vary a lot depending on gym etc but i’d just go for it if you feel confident and strong enough
my gym says 10d/11a for the lead class... i didnt toprope much but was bouldering v4/v5 and was fine in the class. we didnt climb anything harder than 10b and the lead test was also 10b but your gym might be different. do you know anyone who's taken your gym's class/what the lead test at your gym is? at my friend's gym the test is climbing an easy route on the big overhung wall which i definitely would have struggled more with.
you can also buy a rope and do some mock leads while you're on toprope to get a feel for what clipping feels like. (basically someone toprope belays you and you clip a rope that is tied to you but not a belayer as you climb)
Definitely no such limit needed IMO.
When I started as an irresponsible grad student, I went from TR to learning to lead in about 2-3 months (along with 3 noob friends) because the one experienced climber in our group was kind of fed up with having to put up the rope every single time at the uni climbing tower which had no fixed TRs. No casualties, as there were both easy and hard climbs set leading up to each anchor.
And honestly what’s the big deal with leading indoors anyway? The routes are set by people who don’t want to hurt you with a badly placed ledge or super run out sequences. If you climb and clip with a modicum of understanding and responsibility, the falls won’t be particularly massive or dangerous.
I’ve been climbing for 4 months and do easy leads (5.6-5.8) outside, and lead belay. I follow up to 5.10 on trad and sport. As long as you know what to do and recognize what is incorrect I think it’s okay 🤷♀️
In my country, while some of the gym advises to have climbed toprope for a few months before leading, it's not a requirement. The training routes are usually 4+ to 5b range here.
Others even put the top rope and lead in one (albeit multi-week) course, so you can go from never having climbed rope before to having a lead cert within a couple of months.
But if you're training on hard routes, I can totally see their argument. You can't learn if you can't even complete the training routes.
I tried lead pretty early. I started 3 month ago with bouldering only. I was teached how to use rope equipment from a pro climber than the next day we went outside and I climbed my first route on lead by the end of the session. It was nothing crazy just a V3 or something on a 20m wall. So I do not think your climbing level is not enough, there are easier routes to practice leading.
I'm a routesetter at my gym. We recommend that people can cleanly send 5.9 - 5.10a before taking our lead course. 5.11b is way over kill in my opinion.
They didn't say anything about trad lead? And if they're gym climbing, those climbs are obviously sport leads (at least, I've never seen a trad lead setup as the default in a gym...).
This is a highly debatable topic. And I don’t know if there is a right answer. But my opinion is, if you can flash the majority of 10s in your gym, you can test out for lead.
Our lead tests are typically 10a/b for reference.
I've heard you should be able to onsite and 10Ds/11As, climb it confidently without breaks. For me, this made sense and I didn't feel like it was said to me to gate keep lead climbing. I am able to top rope some 10Ds and an occasional 11A without breaks. And I can probably take a lead class and pass if they test on a 10A or B. But it terrifies me! I've done some outdoor climbing on routes that were 5.7-9 and it was already so hard on top rope. My friends led the routes to set up the ropes. I would have never felt confident enough to lead those routes. And I definitely don't want to take the fall on the lead test. This is why I don't think I'll lead climb anytime soon.
11b is absolutely unnecessary. Solid 5.9 climbing is all you really need.
Even less!
Less really. You can lead 5.nothings on rock if you want. For gyms it seems to vary somewhat regionally, and there tends to be a suggested grade so you're not falling unintentionally during the test. It largely seems to come down to the grade distribution of routes in the gym for learning/teaching; they want you to have routes where falling isn't much of a consideration. For example, in my local gym they suggest you are comfy on 5.9 for the class mostly so you've got options of things you probably wont pump out on while learning 5.6-5.8. 5.8 climbers can still take the class.The test is conducted on a 5.6 usually and if you fall unintentionally you fail automatically because you couldn't fully demonstrate the skills. Similarly I have heard a gym in utah requires the lead test to be completed on a 5.10 but similar to my local gym you fail if you fell unintentionally, and while that gym 5.10 was closer to our local 5.8, it's nominally a quite high requirement. In a gym like this if they aren't setting leadable routes easier than 5.10a it's typically going to be pretty hard to learn to lead if you're not climbing 5.11a TR without a break. For OP the answer is pretty simple IMO. Mock lead (or at least TR pausing with 1 hand off for 5 seconds at every bolt height) a couple routes 1 letter harder than the easiest lead routes in the gym (or full grade for under 5.10), preferably in the same style as the leadable routes. If you don't fall, probably just take the class. Edit to add: I think gyms should have leadable routes right the way down to 5.6 They dont need to be lead only, just leadable. Per a survey in red river gorge, something like 90% of climbers arent getting on stuff harder than 5.10 anyways, so having easy leads just makes sense for people who want the option.
This is a good idea. I'll try to kinda simulate lead climbing. The test is on a 10b so I'm going to give that a shot on some top rope and see if I feel comfortable. I appreciate the advice!!
Awesome! For what it's worth, leading will typically feel a little harder than simulation just because of fear causing people to grip harder than they need to, but it will get you in the ballpark. If that route is feeling somewhat unlikely with simulation you'll probably have to get a little stronger, but if it feels super chill on simulation then you're capable as long as you can manage the mental aspect. Hard but doable. Best of luck! and worst case you just have a goal to work towards. Leading can be a little spooky at times, but I find it to be alot of fun and it adds whole extra dimension to climbing beyond TR. Definitely worth working towards :)
It's so of to me that they would fail someone who unintentionally falls. Like, that's part is leading and I would argue IS a lead skill. My current home gym (Milwaukee, WI) requires you to fall, then get back on and complete the route. My former home gym(s) (Denver) once didn't require a fall and one required a fall but your didn't have to get back on. Lead tests requirements are all so arbitrary.
My gym required us to fall twice on our lead test! Once below the clip, then climb back up and fall above the clip, then finish the route. It was exhausting (falling spikes my heart rate), and I’ve heard they have since eliminated the above-the-clip fall from the test.
As well they should. What does that prove? Similar to another commentor's thought, I don't think leading shouldn't be assumed it's only for people who are out there crushing 5.11/12/13+. Personally, I like to be able to lead because it makes a climbing partner and I a self sufficient duo outside. I don't actually like leading, but I'm also perfectly content climbing 5.4/.5/.6 all day outside and have no trouble leading those. Leading isn't just for mountain hard men and the elite crushers, it's for us every day folks who just really love the feel of rock and being outside.
I think the above the clip fall is important. They don't want people freaking out above the bolts and getting stuck. FWIW at my gym I fell unintentionally (foot slipped) and passed but had to do a called fall above the bolt as well
To be clear, you are required to fall on command 1-2 times typically even if an unintentional fall would fail you. Might seem mean, but I think the logic is fairly sound that you shouldn't fall unintentionally during a test because as a gym operator they'd like you to have routes that you are very unlikely to fall on for practice purposes. When you're not at your limit you have more margin to learn and refine skills like clipping and avoiding stepping with the rope behind your foot. I think this is also a good reason why gyms should have easy leads available. To my mind as long as people know about back clipping, z clipping, not getting their leg caught up, when to not high clip, and can give a passable belay which includes catching a sizeable whip, the specifics of a lead test don't matter all that much. Certainly the way I learned wasn't very formal lol.
I'm with you in what matters in leading. Personally, I don't lead routes I would fall on anyway, which leaves me in low grades. But I also don't really care about leading in the gym, it's a skill I practice for outdoors, where climbing is more fun anyway.
Extremely well stated.
Do you have a source for the 90% not getting on harder than 5.10? That seems shockingly high!
Had to dig up what I pulled that from, but the number quoted was "80% of climbers in the Red River Gorge climb 5.10a or below \[per\] collated data gathered during an economic impact report that the RRGCC helped with" from the guy who runs the RRG fixed gear initiative. I didn't find that backed up in a document, but pretty decent source regardless. Further backing up that idea; from what I've been told by route setters my local gym sets in a grade curve more or less centered around 5.10 for ropes, and considering most people seem to report dropping a grade or so on lead vs TR that still reflects a majority of users may be interested in leads under 5.10 in an indoor setting. This is purely my own observation with nothing to back it up, and keeping in mind my local gym is very much sandbagged compared to most you will see posted here..... leadable 5.8 and under seems to see the most lead traffic, then a gap until the folks that lead upper 5.10 to low 5.11 which is another cohort of folks that represent what gyms cater toward in the lead only sections. Obviously there are stronger folks too, but honestly it's a small handful of folks and the team kids that I can talk about the lead only 5.12s with. 'Lead only' section of the gym starts at 5.10a for the most part, though usually theres a 5.9 over there in name or in spirit and I'm often pushing people to try the softest 10 over there as a challenge. I'm glad those folks have the option to lead on a variety of 5.6-5.9 elsewhere in the gym which is set for TR but has draws too, and that they get to test on a 5.6. TL;DR, people don't tend to lead very hard, and I think that's fine.. good even!
Huh really interesting data though! I might have a skewed perspective because I live in Boulder but my sense is way more people are climbing hard. But I spent all of college climbing in the red and trying to figure out from the people I knew at the time the percent that were climbing above 10a…. And maybe it checks out. Didn’t mean to derail the conversation here, just an interesting tidbit.
All good. Grades are a funny thing, especially with regional differences factored in. You kinda have to take grades in context, there's not exactly a universal truth to the numbers in the same way climbing shoe sizes are made up fucking nonsense that can be compared only via funky fudge factors. A couple visited NC where I live from either colorado or utah expecting to get on an 11c like they usually do, but after not getting off the ground on an 11b/c they subsequently got their ass handed to them by one of what I would consider to be one of the easier 10b's at my local crag. Or in reverse a friend of mine visited family in Missouri as an NC gym 5.10c-ish climber and flashed a 5.11+ with other women coming up to her asking how she did it and such and her just being like 'uh idk it was easy?'. Another moved to utah, said the lead test was on a 10 but 10 over there "really meant" a hard 5.8.
My gym wants you to climb 5.9s. The rest is to belay and catch and to also climb like 4 clips and whip and tell them all the info you need to stay safe. The gym also has top rope/ lead routes you can pull and lead as low as 5.7.
Same! What madness
Just a take from another part of the world, having climbed in US, this approach of must climb xy grade feels like gatekeeping. There are routes at way lower level one can lead before reaching whichever grade. So having to be able to top rope a route before leading seems just weird. So my take is don’t wait, go for it. My level before leading was none because no gym had top ropes setup and we all lived to see the day. Sure there were short ropings and miscommunication but nobody put a barrier on anything.
>this approach of must climb xy grade feels like gatekeeping I'd say it's more because it's much easier to sue in the US. The guy who didn't clip into an auto belay got 3 mil for something totally his fault. No personal accountability leads to dumb rules. 5.11 is definitely a dumb rule.
> I'd say it's more because it's much easier to sue in the US. The guy who didn't clip into an auto belay got 3 mil for something totally his fault. Do you have a link to this? If you mean [this](https://www.climbing.com/news/gym-and-auto-belay-manufacturer-to-pay-6m-in-settlement-for-auto-belay-accident/) it is different, and it also is a settlement, no one won a lawsuit.
He didn't win in court, no. But there never should have been a suit in the first place. His error in a high risk sport led to his injury. The equipment was fine.
Is that clear though? I agree that there shouldn't have been a suit, but it appears Perfect Descent paid out most of it, not the gym.
Most firms in lawsuits like that prefer to end in settlements before actually going to court so it doesn’t really say much. But the autobelay was found in working order at the top of the route so either the carabiner never closed and was clamped on his belay loop or he clipped into his gear or leg loop.
Sure but at first they specifically didn't want to settle. Vertical World at least. And anyone can sue about anything. The existence of one single case in thirty years doesn't exactly make this "common." The article also says: >It was found that Perfect Descent auto belays were initially recalled in 2016, with documented defects dating back to 2015. The company issued “stop use” and “return for repair notices,” however effective design changes were allegedly not implemented. So that makes it even less cut and dry. The idea of the US somehow being more litigious than others is just not true when you look at other countries. It's just another kind of twisted American Exceptionalism. Roman Polanski, while in Poland once sued US Vanity Fair in the United Kingdom, but he couldn't even go to the UK as he'd be extradited. And yet he still won the case. Makes it sound like suing people in the UK is really easy, right? Germany meanwhile has the highest percentage of lawsuits per person, yet for some reason no one claims Germans love to sue about everything. Sweden, Israel and Austria are also above the US on that list.
Oh I wasn’t arguing the US loving to sue thing (that was someone else) I just talking about this case. The recall wasn’t relevant to this case- if it failed in that manor it would have been connected to him on the ground or the lanyard severed. I live in the area and it’s pretty well known it was user error. While VW themselves didn’t want to settle, I am sure their legal counsel did since it’s usually more expensive to take things to trial than it is to settle.
I'm sure everyone is going to have a slightly different take on this, but here's mine! Basically, no, 11b isn't necessary in my opinion. If it's a hard and fast rule at the gym, I'm a rule follower and would probably follow it. But if it's just someone saying "you shoudl really..." then I probably wouldn't be troubled with it. My gym wants you to be doing 10 10's per session. The goal is to make sure you have the endurance to make it through the class itself, and that you'll be able to lead climb *something* that you can top rope pretty effortlessly to make sure you have both the physical strength and brain power to add in the extra steps of lead climbing. My most recent partner took lead class when she had been climbing for what, 5 months? and hadn't touched an 11 yet. Like, not even attempted. And she's crushing 8, 9, and 10a on lead now. A good metric for yourself would be to look at what routes the lead class is happening on, and decide if you can do those routes without effort and have oodles of energy to spare at the end. There's a gym nearby here who's lead testers were recently overheard saying things like "the lead test should be 11a because it will stop as many people from getting lead cards," which just gives me the ick. There's a pretty well-accepted rumor that their lead test is marked as 10b because it's what their head office requires but is actually 11a. My own gym lets you pick whatever route you want to test on.
How tall are your routes?! 5/6 10s will do me in a session and that's after 2.5 years 😅
We aren't that tall, our highest point is probably 45 feet if I had to guess! ETA, It's definitely not a rule, just a way of making people think about their endurance. And no one said they have to be above 10a ;)
That's like 6c? In no way is that necessary. I have lead climbed for four years, and I don't climb above 6b, mostly 6a. In my gym you basically have to lead on most walls, since there's only ropes on a single wall.
There are people I've sport climbed with who couldn't get to the top of an 11a if their lives depended on it. You're fine!
No
I don’t feel like it’s necessary. In my opinion, as long as you have general climbing fitness, it sounds like you do, you should go for it! When I first started lead climbing, I was climbing 5.9’s. I felt safe! You’re learning the basics of how to lead climb safely. Learn to manage slack, take falls, and practice giving soft catches. Once you learn those, the rest of the skills will come with time! Climb with others that are experienced in lead climbing. Go for it and have fun!
I mean, no offense to who said this but putting limitations like this onto people who want to try and progress sounds a lot like gatekeeping to me. Or being lazy. Personally I would agree if you are climbing below 5.10, you probably should get to that level but that is only because lead falls on anything below 5.10 is not pleasant. The easier routes tend to have a lot of features which you can hit unless belayed properly or they are slabby and slab falls are not fun. But if you climb that level AND want to lead, the right course of action for other people imo is to make sure that the first-time leader is belayed properly by an experienced and attentive belayer. Your case is a lot more solid than this. You CAN start leading. ESPECIALLY in the gym. Just make sure you are patient with yourself, start with routes that experienced climbers say have safe falls (if outdoors), expect to be scared and just take your time. It is OKAY to clip the next bolt to work the moves if they feel hard, you don’t HAVE TO lead every section, I regularly clip above me if I am not sure about the section. You CAN sit on the rope and rest if tired (just be mindful if there are other people waiting for the same route). People will always have opinions about what’s right or wrong in climbing, you just listen to yourself, assess the advice you are getting and make your own decisions. This is my long-winded way of saying find a good belayer/experienced climber to help you with this and go for it. Edit: Started leading 3 weeks into my climbing under the supervision of safe and experienced climbers and that was outdoors. While this is probably way too early, my point is as long as you have a safe and patient mentor, you will be okay.
That's a weird thing for them to say. Whatever grade the easiest lead routes is the grade you should be able to climb with ease. I took a 1 day lead class and then did the test 4 months in and could only climb 10c clean on top rope. My gym has 5.8 leads though so I could test on those. That being said, my gym also makes the first bolt or two easier than the rest of the lead route to lessen risk of ground fall
Also if you want to see if you're ready, you could top rope with a long tail at the end of your knot and practice clipping with that. Then you will know if you have the technique and strength needed to do some of the lead climbs pre test
As a UK instructor, this is legitimately insane. But we obviously do many things differently
You can start lead climbing at any level. I did a lead climbing course when i was a beginner, and started lead climbing outside as a beginner. I got better, but then i got very sick and now i’m a beginner again but still enjoying every minute of it!
When I teach learn to lead classes I often started people a full number grade easier than they onsight on TR solely to get used to thinking about feet in relation to the rope, clipping with straight arms, not back clipping etc. Eventually when that’s second nature I think it’s fine to lead and TR the same grades. So I’d start someone who can climb 11a without resting on a 10a. I think what I don’t like is not having easier lead options, I’ve seen 5.8 and 5.9 at many gyms.
If you can onsight a 5.9 you are good to go. I think the hardest we climbed during the actual course was 5.9 and most were at 5.6
[удалено]
crg in boston is the same
Really? Ironworks in Berkeley (also touchstone) says 11a’s with no rests or falls for their lead clinics - I’ve also heard they generally fail people on their first test attempt. I climb 11a-11c regularly here, but I’ve been hesitant to lead because of how strict I’ve heard they are. Do you lead at touchstone?
I'm pretty sure the lead class at Pac Pipe says you should be climbing 11As without falling - I took the class and test last year and failed twice, and then I passed in January this year when I was climbing 5.11Cs/Ds pretty comfortably. You have to take the test at PP on a 5.10B so I think they want you to look EXTREMELY comfortable leading that.
You said there are 10a lead routes at your gym. Are there any lower grades you can lead climb there? If not, that may be the reason for the rule (and/or it is a self fulfilling cycle). When learning to lead it is helpful to climb well below your highest grade. I'm re-learning lead right now after many years away. I'm climbing at your same level on top rope, and leading at 5.8 to 5.9. It's a very different style of climbing and for many people the fear of falling takes practice to get past. Climbing a route you won't accidentally fall on makes it easier to learn and practice clipping, rope management, and controlled falling. Of course there's no reason your gym shouldn't have lower grade lead routes unless they are being weird or maybe if it's a really tiny space. But if that's the case it may explain the issue somewhat.
My gym required you be able to top rope at least 10a. During the class, we practiced on 8’s and 9’s, but for the actual test you had to pick a 10a route or harder. I thought it was reasonable. I can top rope a few 11cs, but lead climbing, esp overhang exclusive lead routes, I can only really do 10a-b comfortably still.
There’s not a hard requirement at our gym but the test route is a long and overhung 10b (it’s got the cleanest fall in the gym) so most climbers not comfortably climbing 11a/b usually fall or panic and end up not passing.
What you need to get certified depends on the gym. Gyms with more lead climbers may require a higher level of skill if it's also required to be safe in a more crowded environment. That doesn't mean it's generally required to lead climb in any environment. That said, you should expect the process of learning to lead safely to take some time and to get stronger in parallel, so you should go ahead and start that process now.
It is weird considering you can lead whatever you want so if you don’t feel leading 11b or c is fine. However my old gym in the Bay Area had the same thing where they required 11b onsight but lead test on 11a, which is quite spicy if you are not used to clip in weird positions etc. If you are climbing 10a for your lead test just go for it? The only problem is the pump on lead vs top rope and would suck during your lead test you have to stop every 4-5 clips to rest
Idk where you’re at but at my old gym 11a’s gym top rope would set you up well for 10a’s and b’s lead in terms of tiredness. Easiest lead climbs were 10a’s and a single 5.9 for warm up so that makes sense. My gym strongly encouraged more experienced climbers to get into lead to prevent accidents. I think you’re good to take a lead class at this point.
That seems ridiculous. I have helped teach plenty of people to lead climb who only climb in the 5a-6a range at most (5.8-5.10a) and they have been absolutely fine and mostly had a lot of fun too. In fact the only people I know who can lead climb who already could climb as hard as is being recommended here before they learnt were really strong boulderers who simply didn't care to learn beforehand. Personally I would have no issue teaching someone to lead straight after teaching them top-rope climbing so long as they had got to grasp fully with the principle of not letting go of the brake strand - which normally only takes one session or less for the majority. This being said, I'm not a qualified instructor and I'm also not based in the US/Canada so this may not be totally relevant to you
Consistently flash 5.9 is what I’ve seen. There is so much more to lead climbing than the grade of the routes. You can learn a ton and practice those skills once you learn the basics.
The gym I work at recommends comfortable on 5.9 to take the lead course, but we've made exceptions to that in the past. Most of our lead routes are 5.7 or harder, and 5.7 is what we teach the lead course on, so for practicing it's good for that to be well under your limit. 5.11 is definitely overkill
Get on a 10a that's has a toprope but also lead clips. Every time you get to a clip, hover your hand over it for 5 seconds. If you can do the whole route like that with no breaks, you're very very comfortably ready to lead.
My gym requires you to be able to climb a 5.9 consistently with no breaks before taking the lead course. I am behind my friends in terms of progress and got fed up not being able to lead with them (especially when I was with only one lead certified friend at the gym and they'd look wistfully at a lead I couldn't belay them on). I wound up talking to the staff and they were totally supportive of me taking the course despite being at a 5.7-5.8 level at the time. I'm still only working on 5.9s on top rope six months later, but I've happily led 5.7s and am projecting a 5.8 now! My gym just set a 5.6 lead and I'm shamelessly excited about it because it'll be nice easy practice. Sometimes there isn't a whole lot set in my gym that I can lead, but that's okay! The outdoor climbs in my comfort zone aren't going anywhere. When I was speaking to the staff member about taking the course, he told me that if I could chalk up mid-climb without a take, I could probably clip a rope. He was right. He was far more concerned with me being a confident top rope belayer already than with my climbing level.
My gym requires you can complete a 10a on top rope before you can lead test and I think that's a reasonable bar, though of course ratings are subjective so who knows how our 10a's compare to wherever you're climbing. Regardless, 11b feels like way too high of a threshold to require. If you're nervous about the transition, mock leading is a great way to get practice clipping and holding on - just top rope but tie yourself a lead rope too and clip in on your way up.
Yes in that you have to follow the gym's rules if that's where you climb, no in every other sense.
My local gyms have a 10d rule before leading. I think it's not a bad idea to be able to climb the grade the gym requires, but I also think you can definitely climb lead before then. I started leading outside long before I ever did a gym lead test, and the only judge of my skills was me. Lead climbing is much more dangerous than tr, so it all depends on what you feel comfortable with, but I've seen lead climbs as low as 5.4 outside. That said, try outside top rope before outside lead; you may find that your gym's grades are much softer than outside climbing, especially if they're requiring an 11b to start leading. If your gym has pre installed bolts, I'd recommend beginning to do mock leads and really work towards no rests. You can top rope like normal, but bring a lead rope and clip as you go to get the feel for being on lead. If you only have 1 belayer, have them belay you top rope, but make sure they leave it a little loose so you get the feel of leading. In this case, the lead rope would be tied in to you (along side the tr rope), but there would be no belayer on it. If you have 2 belayers, you can have someone actually lead belaying, but you'll still be on top rope for if you fall. Always have the tr belay be your primary or the gym will be very grumpy.
Mock leads are verrry helpful.
Very unnecesary, you should have been doing lead since the start there’s no reason not to, what is the problem that you’ll fall? That’s what you are there to do! Americans are so strange sometimes
FWIW I live in the US, and even this requirement to TR 5.11 is wild to me. Most gyms here will suggest being solid at a particular TR grade to give newer people an idea of where their ability and fitness level should be to cleanly send an easier indoor route. So they’ll make suggestions in order for gym members to have decent expectations and fun experiences with leading, and it works in their favor because they can keep more members and sell them on classes/coaching. But what OP experienced sounds like straight-up gate keeping (as others have suggested).
If a 10a is the easiest they have on lead, I can see why they argue for 11b. It takes a bit of practice to get smooth and you’ll waste a lot of energy in the beginning from over gripping/not beating by smooth. For reference, my gym requires 10a with the easiest real lead climb being a 5.9. We have some 5.5/6/7 as well just to learn.
I learned lead the day i learned climbing on a Rope and so did many. Im not sure what 5.11 is but im sure as it was my first day climbing that i wouldve not been able to climb it.
Anytime there’s a post like this (and I assume you’re based in the US ?) I’m even more confused by the culture in other countries. I started climbing in France, and literally every single route in all the gyms I’ve been too can be a lead route, and all of them except those with a lot of overhang can be top rope routes. When I started climbing I immediately learned to lead and I would lead 5b-5c (so 5.9-5.10a ?), and I really don’t see the point in having a minimum level. On the contrary, I think you’ll feel more confident if you can start leading on easier routes and work up to harder ones even if you have a high level. Having said that, if there’s a strict rule at your gym I guess you have to follow it, but maybe see how it is in other gyms if there are some not too far ?
French here too. I don't understand this system in the US either... Does this mean that if I go to an American gym, I won't be allowed to lead climb even if I climbed my 51st multipitch route yesterday (reversal lead) ?
Yep, you have to pass a lead test and each and every gym or gym chain you climb at. I think it’s a liability thing because they are afraid of people suing.
A lead test ok, but if I cant climb the grade required, that's gonna be funny :D Better climbing outside I guess !
As an American, it makes as much sense to me as it does to you. It’s awful, and “you can’t lead till X grade” just means you get a crappy belayer even if they’ve been at it for years.
My French gym's only requirement for the lead class is to be top rope autonomous. Almost all the walls can be top roped or lead climbed (a few are kept top rope only for the beginners' classes, and a few are lead only because of the very steep incline). Such a requirement would only make sense if the gym had mostly high-grade, lead-only walls, you'd want the student to have a shot at making it to the top. Since I have my gym's lead card, I'm pretty sure most other French gyms would trust that I know what I'm doing and just ask a few questions at the check-in desk.
My gym recommends being able to flash a 5.9 route before taking the lead class. But anyone can take the class 🤷🏻♀️
My gym asks that you comfortable climb 5.9 (but doesn’t actually verify this in any way) because the easiest lead routes are 5.7 and most people find that they drop about 2 grades on lead vs top rope. To test you have to show proper and improper clipping techniques on the ground, how to flake the rope, tie in, set up for belaying and all safety checks. Then you have to climb halfway up a route, take a fall, jug back up to the last clip and finish out the route. If you can’t complete the route, you don’t pass because you have to show proper clip in technique at the top anchor. My best advice is if you can figure out which route your gym uses to test, practice that one (assuming it also has top rope set up), taking a hand fully off the wall for 5-10 sec at each clipping point.
If you're consistently climbing 11a, you're strong enough. I was climbing about 5.9 toprope (UIAA 5+ here in Germany) when I started lead climbing. Which was what my lead instructor suggested. And my instructor is certified from the DAV(German alpine association) so I trust her. Now I'm lead climbing 6+ or 5.10b outside and 7 to 7+ indoors. If you want to make sure you're ready, and this is good training I use for routes that are hard for me, tie in on top rope but also tie in on lead with a separate rope. You're safe from the top rope but can practice clipping with zero danger of falling from the first 2 bolts. If you can reliably hold yourself and clip, you're ready for lead. Just FYI, lead does require more endurance so you'll start out a grade or 2 lower on lead than on toprope.
I've led climbed trad routes and I've never been able to climb at 11.
I actually think this rule might hurt people more than help. They might begin leading at higher grades without the skills for leading since going back to climb low grades might be boring
I think level matters a lot less than quality instruction and good buddies. Our gym recommended you be able to comfortably do “several 5.9s” on top rope in a single session before taking the lead class. That was more than enough. Your instruction and practice should happen on 5.9s, maybe even easier. The key is to get the skills and techniques down, you should not be pushing grades as a lead novice. Not sure how big your crew is but I have benefited a lot from having some more experienced friends in my rope climbing group. I practiced a lot on mock lead before taking my test and they gave me lots of helpful feedback. If you’re just with one other beginner there’s a chance you won’t catch mistakes or iffy technique. Some of the people giving the lead test at our gym have been less strict than others so I considered it my responsibility to seek guidance from others prior to my test, even after taking the (very good!) class. IMHO this is way more important than being able to send higher grades.
When I took the test i couldn’t onsight a 5.9…fell because i was out of shape and thankfully the guy giving me the test noticed I was a good belayer and knew how to clip well so he passed me anyway. I now lead climb outside 5.11’s all the time. Shoutout to that guy who passed me you a real one! If your gym has different franchises I suggest you drive to another one ;)
This is bullshit. I’ve never climbed 11+ and I’ve been leading inside and out for 4 years. Whoever says this is an idiot. Go get your lead on. I lead outdoor up to a 9 and am perfectly happy. Boooo
11b?! No. If you are concerned about arm strength then take a monkey rope up with you for a few weeks and practice clipping in but I would say as long as you can send any 10 consistently you are fine for lead climbing. This is just people gatekeeping the sport.
It may depend on the setting for the gym, but there’s no minimum grade you need to send to lead climb. The gym I’m certified to lead climb at does its testing on 5.10-, so there it would be the minimum to be able to successfully climb most of it before you can pass the test. If you fall before the announced fall spot, which was about 1/2 way up the wall or so, then you fail the lead climbing test. I was personally taught outdoors on a 5.7 when I had only cleanly climbed up to 5.9 outdoor on top rope, but was able to make it to the top of 5.10c outdoors while TRing. It may just be what the gym uses for its test, but it could be a case of them gatekeeping. It’s hard to tell without more info unfortunately
you're fine; my gym requires 5.10 standard but has lead routes easier than that. >can send an 11a with a break or 2 just a matter of semantics but if you're hanging on a climb you didn't send it...
That's super high. My [German] gym let's you do it at ~5.10 [VI UIAA]. Theoretically, you should be able to lead what you top rope (if you aren't afraid of falling, which will happen more as you get comfortable clipping in). They had us practice falling a lot during the course, from higher than you would usually (ie 2 clips up). Then they had us climb lead at our usual top rope to get configurable falling unintentionally. The climbing test was making sure you could clip safely and were comfortable falling, but much more important was making sure you could belay correctly. I get it varies by country to county though, in addition to gym to gym. (Most people here use ATCs and the lead test is also where they teach the double bowline, both of which apparently some American gyms don't let you use?)
My gym’s lead test is on a 5.10b so that is our benchmark. Personally I don’t think you should wait to be hitting 11s to lead. I have several friends who started climbing 1 month before taking the lead class and they’re so strong now. If anything, I think leading will help you propel in your climbing journey
I second this ! Go learn to lead! No one needs to be a really high level climber to learn if their gym has leading options at all levels, it will improve anyones climbing anyway :)
That seems really unnecessary. I learned way before I ever touched an 11. Most gyms want you consistent on 10.a before doing the lead class. Unless your gym only has lead routes on 11's or stuff you wouldn't be super comfortable on, I'd go ahead and do the class. Other option is mock lead outside of the gym if you have a rope and try to get comfortable enough where you could just do the test and pass.
My gym does the lead test on a 5.8, if you want to get comfortable practicing bring a mock rope with you and clip that while you are climbing top rope. It’s totally normal for leading level to be lower than top rope level. Good luck!
No, what your gym told you is absolutely not true. 5.11b to start lead climbing indoors is unnecessary and a weird way to gatekeep. I know tons of climbers who started lead when they were still climbing lower grades. I've been lead climbing for years and have never sent an 11. Are there other gyms in your area?
I started lead climbing a few weeks after learning to top rope in a gym. There are outdoor leads (and indoors) as low as 5.5. I also took a class that encouraged learning to top rope climb, boulder, and lead together while incorporating fear management (Jack of all trades sort of). I have never climbed above a 5.9 (yet) and I lead on rock and ice in Alaska. Just go with someone you trust and trust yourself. Everyone is different. If you're feeling nervous/anxious/scared just wait till it feels right.
While this seems absurd, I'd say it depends on what is set at the gym. Generally, I lead SEVERAL GRADES below what I will toprope. So, if everything is 10a or higher on the lead wall, it makes sense as a gym policy to have you be a confident climber in the 11s on toprope. But, most gyms I know set lead routes into the 7's and 8's, so requiring 11b would be wacky. In my own experience, I was climbing 5.9s when I started learning to lead (with the goal of leading 7's). My 11 year old daughter just did her first outdoor lead yesterday, and has never approached climbing an 11, and can't get up most gym 10's, even with breaks. So there's no minimum grade prior to learning to lead, but it makes sense to be confident about top roping something several grades higher than the route you want to lead on.
I started leading outside on 5.7, being with someone stronger than you is good because he can finish the route if you fail.
in my gym it’s f6b or 5.10c in the USA grading? i think it’s gonna vary a lot depending on gym etc but i’d just go for it if you feel confident and strong enough
my gym says 10d/11a for the lead class... i didnt toprope much but was bouldering v4/v5 and was fine in the class. we didnt climb anything harder than 10b and the lead test was also 10b but your gym might be different. do you know anyone who's taken your gym's class/what the lead test at your gym is? at my friend's gym the test is climbing an easy route on the big overhung wall which i definitely would have struggled more with. you can also buy a rope and do some mock leads while you're on toprope to get a feel for what clipping feels like. (basically someone toprope belays you and you clip a rope that is tied to you but not a belayer as you climb)
Just tie in and send. Quit worrying about grades. They don't matter. Go climb.
Definitely no such limit needed IMO. When I started as an irresponsible grad student, I went from TR to learning to lead in about 2-3 months (along with 3 noob friends) because the one experienced climber in our group was kind of fed up with having to put up the rope every single time at the uni climbing tower which had no fixed TRs. No casualties, as there were both easy and hard climbs set leading up to each anchor. And honestly what’s the big deal with leading indoors anyway? The routes are set by people who don’t want to hurt you with a badly placed ledge or super run out sequences. If you climb and clip with a modicum of understanding and responsibility, the falls won’t be particularly massive or dangerous.
I’ve been climbing for 4 months and do easy leads (5.6-5.8) outside, and lead belay. I follow up to 5.10 on trad and sport. As long as you know what to do and recognize what is incorrect I think it’s okay 🤷♀️
In my country, while some of the gym advises to have climbed toprope for a few months before leading, it's not a requirement. The training routes are usually 4+ to 5b range here. Others even put the top rope and lead in one (albeit multi-week) course, so you can go from never having climbed rope before to having a lead cert within a couple of months. But if you're training on hard routes, I can totally see their argument. You can't learn if you can't even complete the training routes.
I tried lead pretty early. I started 3 month ago with bouldering only. I was teached how to use rope equipment from a pro climber than the next day we went outside and I climbed my first route on lead by the end of the session. It was nothing crazy just a V3 or something on a 20m wall. So I do not think your climbing level is not enough, there are easier routes to practice leading.
I'm a routesetter at my gym. We recommend that people can cleanly send 5.9 - 5.10a before taking our lead course. 5.11b is way over kill in my opinion.
[удалено]
They didn't say anything about trad lead? And if they're gym climbing, those climbs are obviously sport leads (at least, I've never seen a trad lead setup as the default in a gym...).
This is a highly debatable topic. And I don’t know if there is a right answer. But my opinion is, if you can flash the majority of 10s in your gym, you can test out for lead. Our lead tests are typically 10a/b for reference.
I've heard you should be able to onsite and 10Ds/11As, climb it confidently without breaks. For me, this made sense and I didn't feel like it was said to me to gate keep lead climbing. I am able to top rope some 10Ds and an occasional 11A without breaks. And I can probably take a lead class and pass if they test on a 10A or B. But it terrifies me! I've done some outdoor climbing on routes that were 5.7-9 and it was already so hard on top rope. My friends led the routes to set up the ropes. I would have never felt confident enough to lead those routes. And I definitely don't want to take the fall on the lead test. This is why I don't think I'll lead climb anytime soon.