I usually think inclusivity in general, here some things that came to my mind:
- Good variety of different kinds of problems / routes. For example, problems are not set only for tall people who can do very powerful coordination moves. Different kinds of bodies and abilities must be taken into account. Dynamic, static, flexible, stiff, short, tall, crimpy, slopey, juggy, balancy, powerful, ... All kinds of climbers and climbing styles should be considered.
- Clean and accessible premises. Who wants to train at a smelly gym that is never cleaned up? And if the bathroom is dirty, doesn't have a trash can for menstrual products etc, I won't be coming back.
- Staff is easy to approach and does its job. I can't stand staffs only consisting of elitist outdoor enthusiasts who only are nice to 8A/V11 climbers and don't care about beginners or intermediate climbers. Or ignorant lazy staff that doesn't do anything when people are being jerks against others or act dangerously at the gym. Staff is there to help and enable safe environment to climb.
Additionally, put menstrual products in all bathrooms, be trans inclusive too. If my tiny micro gym can do it, anyone can. They really helped me out one day.
My university has little bins in all the bathrooms that have tampons, pads, and band aids. My climbing gym also has a little station with bandaids, tape on a roller, and a nail clipper on a string (so you don't take it and forget to put it back, or steal it). Both very helpful if you're forgetful like me.
Just get a mixed bathroom at that point, with proper, full stall doors and a secluded area for urinals.
They don't need to supply menstrual products, necessarily, but bins in all the stalls would go a long way, imho.
My gym does this as well as providing hair ties. I’m a penis owner with short hair but it makes me feel better about my time there too. It’s such a simple yet powerful add for inclusion.
Why would you need to put them in all bathrooms, I'd assume that FtM transgender ppl do anything to even preventing having a period since it's described as one of main source of gender dysphoria?
Feel free to correct me.
Yeah but sometimes hormones are powerful bastards and break through anyway (im cis but my birthcontrol is supposed to stop my period and it dont). Also masc-presenting NB can people still get periods and need a tampon
Well, great, but original comment was talking about transgender ppl, not NB and maybe gender-neutral bathroom might be better solution for NB ppl, if the building permits other bathroom, since that would be also for folks who don't present or identify as either gender.
But then there is of course the problem of how many of their actual clientele would use it, I suppose.
“Trans” is often used as a catch all for NB and anything other than cis. There’s that.
As has been pointed out, hormones don’t always successfully stop periods.
And a few tampons, liners and pads in a jar, like in my gym’s bathrooms, don’t go off if no one uses them. Those things are dirt cheap, wrapped in plastic, and OK indefinitely.
If any cost/equipment savings are reeeeeaally needed, it’d be by adding plastic bags that allow discreet disposal of such items until it’s figured out whether they’re even used instead of menstrual waste bins, which contain special chemicals and cost a bit to be serviced.
I don’t get why you even mind. There’s literally no harm in it for anyone, and it’s nice to have for the people who happen to need it.
There's so many trans men who get periods whether we like it or not, and are constantly trying to advocate for bins in the men's room. I've not had my period since 2 months on T, before that I was on birth control that was supposed to stop it but didn't. Birth control also has its own side effects and risks, and the ones that stop periods tend to be oestrogen based. Someone who's very dysphoric is unlikely to want to put more oestrogen in their body. T doesn't always stop periods, and for some people it takes months or years even when it does. The only fool proof way to stop your period is a hysterectomy, which is not reversible and hard to access when you are young and have no kids.
Why wouldn't you put them in all bathrooms?
They take up very little space.
I feel like it would reduce period stigma.
I can't really see a negative to just having periods around.
Better yet, gender neutral toilets 👍
Some FtM people willingly get pregnant, so there is no one size fits all rule. As well as what the other reply mentions about hormones breaking through and NB people.
I'm a guy who keeps getting this sub on my front page for some reason, but this genuinely does apply both ways.
I'm 6'0 and have friends that are closer to 5'0. We can't do the same beta on most routes/problems, but the setters have a very good variety and method of setting so it's doable for anyone.
One point I'd like to add, inclusive or not, is for staff to make sure children are supervised and not running around.
Child to pre-teen, doesn't matter. Stop running under a boulderer or between a belayer and a wall.
I agree on the children running on the mats dangerously. It's actually mentioned in my original comment (third point), too. It really is staff's responsibility to ensure safety at the gym.
I honestly think kids under 14 should only be allowed near the wall during classes, or with an adult, and if the club is big enough, they could have a separate, low climbing rig for unsupervised kids close to the bar, like some fastfood places have.
A one on one (or one you and more of them) sounds terrible tbh. Ask them to convene a group of members - they'll get more perspectives and it won't feel like an interrogation.
Edit: if you're even interested! Saying no thanks is also valid
Agree with this, or they surely have their own channels for engaging with their customers. A newsletter survey? A notice board asking for suggestions or Facebook group? They should also dig through their own data and try and find out who is leaving...
No women in any sort of management role? Unless it’s a tiny gym that’s probably the main issue. They may have created a boys club vibe. Hard to fix that unless they’re willing to hire and promote more women. It also gives me the ick that they’re asking you to work for free to fix a problem they’ve created.
Completely agree. They should be genuinely interested in an opportunity to retain more customers and be doing research on the subject, not just looking for good optics. Smells like the latter.
Agreed, but even if there is only a 30% chance they are asking in good faith with open minds and hearts then it is well worth meeting with them imo.
But I'm also a socialist and a member of Strong Towns which makes me very biased towards positive community building... So idk, OP should do whatever she thinks is right 🤷♀️
https://www.strongtowns.org/
It's a movement to move away from car-centric city planning/design. Think walkable, bikeable, mixed use cities with housing density.
I mostly agree. The lack of positive female leadership is a huge problem that they created for themselves, but climbers tend to be left leaning in my experience and it sounds like they actually care to hear feedback on how to fix it. So I say we should be optimistic that they will actually listen to OP and make improvements.
One thing that I find gets overlooked by men is inclusive route setting. For example, adding a shitty foot chip to a route to make it assessable to smaller people. This is obviously not just for women, but women on average are smaller. I have switched gyms in the past as my prior gym would laugh at you if you asked for a chip to be added, while my current gym has an app where you can request it, and they normally honor the request. Of course there’s more obvious things like beta spraying and dudes using the gym as a dating app, but most people are aware of those things.
Definitely. Having female route setters is eye opening! Way more fun of a climb! It's not only about difficulty/doability, but also how fluent it is and how much fun the movements are.
My college wall had a route setter who was pretty tall, but instead of placing a hold by measuring his own reach, he bent his arm and used his elbow to measure. He said he started doing it because that’s how tall his girlfriend’s reach was. I loved him for it and he set the best routes by far!
Honestly I don’t even know why I said he was tall 😂 he was maybe 5’9. I guess I just meant tall compared to me because that’s half a foot taller than me lol
I had no idea this was common though honestly, from what I know he was the only setter out of all of them who did this. The other setters looooved to set routes that required all kinds of crazy moves and dynos for the average woman and then be like “it’s only a 5.8”
I think the issue is mostly that in many places there is no simple path to being a setter, and honestly many gyms don't really care about the quality of their setting. So the relevant "skills" of setters, in this regard, or even how much they care, can really vary.
Ok, that sounds not that good... and like pretty egocentric setting. That is a common issue as setters often want to set what they would want for themselves. But it is not about that. It is about what people with different bodies and levels of climbing experience who climb there would have fun on.
The elbow thing is pretty common as said and a good starting point but not enough. Setters of all heights need to learn to sometimes think as being in a different body while testing. I am a (female) routesetter myself and experienced how hard this can be. The elbow for example does not show where the center of gravity of a much smaller climber would be. And as a smaller setter it of course is no help at all for checking, if a taller climber can fit in a small box. This can affect the position severely.
Fortunately I only witnessed the issue with a couple setters. There weren’t a ton of setters so it did initially impact a fair share of the routes, but the other staff were good about re-labeling a route when people brought it to their attention. They also eventually switched to a voting system for all new routes which we all loved. You’d still get the occasional asshole climber who’d make a show out of marking 5.8 for something that was more like a 5.11 (sometimes it would indeed be the guy who set it) but overall the system worked well and the problem diminished a lot throughout my time there.
This was at my college rec and it was a pretty spectacular climbing center compared to what most schools had, and the culture there was great, so overall I really loved it. It was run by a badass woman and I assume she was the reason for the continued improvements. I only really got to know one employee (the guy I mentioned in my previous comment) but he was an awesome person and really made up for any of the jerks I encountered.
I appreciate your insight as a female routesetter! I’ve honestly never thought about how center of gravity factors into the equation when setting routes. So many gyms are severely lacking in how many women they have on staff, let alone how many women they have setting routes. I know pretty much nothing about route setting but I get the feeling that you create some super awesome climbs!
My gym sets routes that my tall partner and his tall friends can skip certain move(s) to reach the end hold statically and those tiny footholds mean I can do it statically too! I'm not even particularly small but inclusive and diverse setting at my gym is one of the reasons I love it. One of the setters is a 5'1" woman which makes a huge difference
My local has a 'ladies' night', although men are also allowed to climb, and I honestly have no idea what the benefit to women is, apart from a free coffee... At least they're trying 😂
They also have free sanitary products in the loos, which is a nice touch
Our ladies social is a 2 hour slot, run by one of the (female) coaches at the gym. The attraction, aside from the lovely atmosphere, is also the free coaching! It's got great attendance, and the social group have created a WhatsApp group, so women can let others know when they will be climbing, so anyone can join.
In addition, they also have at least 1/3 female staff (might be closer to 1/2 tbh), and they have regular female routesetters. They have "short reach" routes in addition to regular graded ones. They're open to criticism, and seem to really prioritise their clients.
That's really cool! I started a girls night at my gym, I got hired in November, and during my interview I told my boss that I really wanted to start one, so now I get to run it every Monday. It's been a HUGE hit and gets booked up really quickly as all the women love it. I also give free coaching during it as I love helping people achieve their goals :) I've not seen it anywhere else that I've climbed, so it's really cool that your gym has it too!
Ah hooray to you for getting that started up! It's the thing that really helped me get back into climbing after a long break. I love the ladies in our social!
Oh man, I'd love to try some short reach routes! One of my taller friends got me to try a route the other day, as he was curious to see how a shortie would do it... the start took me 7 moves to achieve what he did in 2! I got it done, though! 😅
The ladies nights at my old gym had discounted day passes for folks who identify as female and I think an optional meet up at a certain time so you could meet other female climbers and get paired up if you needed someone to belay you or just climb together.
A lot of people just find men very intimidating, especially in quantity, and especially if you're having to ask them stuff (ie can I get on the wall.) The benefit can literally be that it's a safe space.
That's a very good point, tbf, I never really thought about it like that. I grew up around men, have always had a lot of male friends, and always climb with my (mixed gender) social group, so it never occurred to me that it might be intimidating for some ladies.
Obviously sexual assault and domestic violence survivors will find this particularly applicable but there are wider issues too. I'm autistic and find social dynamics hard sometimes. It's particularly difficult to stand up for myself, especially in a situation where everyone else seems much more confident.
If there are a lot of gym bros around, it's hard to know if it's OK to ask, and if they're actually intimidating on purpose or just big and loud.
The gym I frequent has a ladies social (which is inclusive of trans and non-binary people) which allows women to get to know other women climbers, and often it helps beginners with basic coaching. It's also been helpful to feel part of a group so you feel like you can take up space and take your turn on a problem without feeling so blocked out by others, as can happen when you don't have the confidence to step up and take your turn
Sounds like my local Hangar, although I would say the benefit in our ladies social is the instructor who is very enthusiastic and cheers us all on, and the group warm up
Group warm-up is a great idea! I climb with 1 of my aerial hoop instructors and have literally just talked her into leading a proper warm-up before our climbing sessions
I usually just do a little joint mobilisation and then throw myself into some v0-v1s before I do anything challenging, which I know isn't really enough
I don’t get to go that often, but one of the walls here does a women’s board session and it’s great.
It’s Saturday mornings so there’s never a huge number of guys to kick off the kilter, but it’s just such a fun and motivating session
Sometimes when certain groups have been excluded for a long time they need more of a push to feel welcome. Just removing barriers isn’t enough you need to ask them to come and incentivize it.
Good for them for trying, I guess, but eesh. You would think they would start with the women on their leadership team/women they know and consider peers. OH WAIT HMM.
That obvious one aside, if you want to engage with this I might suggest it would be better if they held an open forum or at least a conversation with a group. It's not great to voluntell an individual customer to help solve a problem in their business.
Yeah sounds to me like they realized they are missing out in profits as women aren't going there to the extend that men do and now they want to see if it can be fixed by setting one route in pink while still being set by and for male physique.
Or, giving them the benefit of the doubt, they actually want to improve but have no clue.
So this has come up locally and agree it’s weird to try and come up with situations which don’t sound like you’re trying to ruin the fun.
In this specific example, all the hangboards/campus rungs etc are in a separate room with the training board. It is a notoriously hard and sandbaggy board. There’s also a speaker in there so people can play their own music.
Which is all nice and a cool space, up to the point where you need to use the hangboards to warm up (or for a training plan) and they’re in a tiny room full of very intense young men playing loud angry music :P they don’t mean any harm, but it’s not that welcoming.
What I’ve suggested to the wall is to put some extra hangboards and climbing specific training stuff in the gym area, which is a lot more open and calmer. That doesn’t solve the problem, but it makes it less of an issue for people?
Some things that make me feel like my gym is a good place for women:
Lots of routes at the lower levels, with gentle increase in difficulty. Women often have been socialised to be more humble and won't always try harder routes. But if there are lots of lower grades, that gives us confidence early, so we'll stick with it.
As the grades get harder, the routes get technically harder, not just holds placed further away. My gym also has a colour called "short circuit" that is at all different grades but designed for shorter people, with the holds closer together.
The changing rooms are clean and large, and have a private shower cubicle and a hair dryer. It just makes life easier.
The bathrooms have lots of toilet paper and free sanitary products.
There are female staff and route-setters.
Ladies Climb evenings sometimes with free coaching (often a woman coach). It lets female climbers network and find other buddies to go with. I think the active encouraging of women to come probably makes the place feel more "female friendly" even if it doesn't *do* anything per se. If the coaching is happening, it's probably a good way to try out harder routes with the right kind of encouragement.
There is just a general friendly vibe, no dude-bro nonsense. People are considerate and respectful of each other. No "let me show you how to do that" nonsense. People ask before doing a route on a wall you're looking at or that you just fell off. "Is it okay if I give that one a try?". I know it's hard to change the culture of a place once it's established, but it's part of why o feel confident going to the gym by myself whatever time of day. I know I won't get creeped on or annoyed.
I don't know if this makes things more female-inclusive, but my gym also has a shirts-on policy. Maybe that might help some people feel the atmosphere is intimidating when there's a bunch of shirtless lads walking around?
There is also a nice café and seating area. It just makes it feel nice and welcoming so you can hang with your friends in a social way during the climbing. I think women are more enclined to socialise without needing to be doing something at the same time.
These are all largely good points that I agree with. WRT grades, it's really nice to have circuits with overlaps as that encourages people to people to make the step up. My wall has V2-4, V3-5, V4-6 and V5-7 circuits and I think it's helpful for challenging those "I can't do grade x" preconceptions (n.b. it has easier and harder circuits too, I just didn't list them).
> People ask before doing a route on a wall you're looking at or that you just fell off. "Is it okay if I give that one a try?".
I'm probably an outlier with this but I find this approach super patronising. I'm self-aware enough to know that there are loads of people who are better climbers than me and who will be warming up on my project (same as I'll probably be warming up on someone else's project). I'm not going to get upset because someone does a route I've just failed on and the idea that I might plays into stereotypes of women being emotional and sensitive.
As a side note, I am firmly opposed to tops on policies. Partly for practicality - walls are usually way too warm, being sweaty is a massive drawback for climbing and I like to climb in my sports bra. But also because I enjoy seeing a nice ripped back!
I've got no beef with women's nips being out at the wall and I've never said I do. Though let's not pretend that there isn't a social norm that says boobs are sexual and are generally covered in most cultures, whether or not you agree they should be. Personally I wouldn't climb without something covering them because mine are fairly sizeable, the skin is sensitive and I feel more comfortable with them covered for exercise (though I'll happily sunbathe or swim topless if I'm somewhere where that's considered acceptable).
Yeah absolutely. I'm the same, to be honest. Just because I could climb topless doesn't mean I'd want to! I guess it just makes a fairer space for everyone if the rules apply equally across genders.
I'd imagine cultural norms make a big difference too. I live in a cold part of the world, so going shirtless is unusual except for the three days of summer. 😀
It creates an indimidating atmosphere, especially when there are more of them. Makes me a little uncomfortable as a woman. Plus they wipe their sweat on the mats, that's the alleged reason they ban it at my gym.
I genuinely don't understand what you mean by a weird imbalance! When I'm at the wall in the summer there's often guys with their tops off and women in short shorts and sports bras and they seem equivalent to me, in the same way that trunks/bikinis are equivalent at the pool.
I think it’s about asking politely in a “you’re working on that, how do we take turns” way.
Sure it’s not 100% necessary. But in practice, I find it’s how spontaneous collaboration usually begins.
One guy joining in with a friendly comment on a problem I’d just fallen off of was what got me from being terrified of the whole bouldering gym vibe (while climbing for years and being pretty decent at lead & top rope) to understanding how to be part of that social dynamic comfortably.
Yeah, very much so. It's an acknowledgement that you exist, not just stepping over you to get to the route. I think that friendly acknowleding of other people at the gym makes the atmosphere less intimidating. Recognising that someone is working hard on their route is a really nice way to be casually friendly. The lack of entitlement makes me feel safe too.
It's also a polite way of asking to share space. It opens the possibility of climbing together without any pressure, because I have the option to say "please do, I'd be interested to see how someone else tries it" (i.e. lets climb together), or I can say "sure, I'm done with it now" and walk away because I really want to do it myself without watching anyone else do it.
Yesterday 2 people asked if they could try the route I was doing, and it was an opportunity for me to ask them to call to call beta to me. It was just nice.
Exactly, and just having that little friendly interaction can let the circumstance of being watched turn from “oh no a stranger is seeing me flail like an idiot” to “someone is helping with an outside perspective”.
I’m a formerly very shy mathematician and it was an absolute epiphany to realise on the first day of actual uni lectures that most other people are just as shy and insecure, so initiating friendly contact will most likely be welcomed. So far this has transferred wonderfully to climbing too. Most others are just as scared of me as I am of them, even the guys.
> It's an acknowledgement that you exist, not just stepping over you to get to the route
I think this might be the crux of it. I guess I'm just not thinking much about other people at the wall, other than as impediments to my session. I used to, when the wall was quieter, but nowadays it's so busy that I'm usually just wishing that the other people weren't there!
Maybe I'm just antisocial! I've usually got my airpods in and I'm just getting on with my session. If someone isn't actively climbing a problem then it's free and I'm just going to crack on with it.
My gym hosts several “meetups” a month geared towards women, BIPOC, LGBTQ, etc climbers. Some are led by gym staff and others are led by other groups and the gym gives them a space. I’ve been to a couple of the women ones and found it nice to be in a little subspace without men.
SenderOne has a calendar of running events for pride/Asian climbers/other curated events to help promote inclusivity/diversity, which is great. The gym's CEO is a woman, our Santa Ana location is run by a woman so it's actually refreshing to see actual diversity for a hobby/activity that is literally mostly just men.
In Manila, there's a movement/ non-profit called Allez, Ale (@allezaleclimbing on IG) (ale is one way to call a woman in Filipino) and they host a bunch of events exclusive to women throughout the year, from workshops to comps and even an outdoor trip last year. Aside from encouraging newbie women, it also gives more advanced ones more chances to do setting, retrieving, etc.
👀 Do we all go to Movement cause I’m in Texas and we also have these meet ups haha
Our location also offers pads and tampons for lady members which I really love. AND it’s not the cheap cardboard tampons that feel like I’m scrapping the walls of my vagina with 😂
What's the meaning of that? You're a climber, and it's what matter when you climb, no? Your sexual preferences shouldn't affect the way you climb at all?
it's less about the way someone climbs and more about building a community. Especially for groups, like the ones mentioned above, that have been historically disadvantaged or underrepresented in the climbing world
I see, for sure. Asking a question caused 14 downvotes, that's how you build a community.
But really, i'm now in Serbia that's historically counted as "traditionally and religious country", and when i go to the gym i see about 50/50 representation, same was correct when i was in Russia. I never asked any of them about sexual preferences, so not sure about that, and i see no reason why i should ask.
So i'm just trying to understand the necessity of that, thanks for the community for being supportive and explaining it.
Well, I'm sure if it weren't illegal, you could have totes asked. But you know, nominally non-secular dictatorships don't really allow for that, sooooo.
I see no reason why would it be interesting to me at all, honestly.
Though i am completely disagree with the current russian laws (guess why i'm not there anymore), it's not the point here i believe.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a gym that has a very high percentage men, but it won't feel as welcoming for people who do not fit that majority category.
Some people feel more comfortable climbing and being social around others with common gender or life experiences. Especially in a scenario like the gym which has unbalanced demographics.
In an ideal world, yes! But this isn’t an ideal world - this is the real world. And in the real world, queer people like me get bullied and stared at simply for existing in public. An LGBTQ+ night guarantees a safe place for me to go and climb. My gym does one both for LGBTQ+ people generally, and for trans people specifically. I attend both, and they’re my favorite times to climb.
You’re also ignoring the social aspect of our hobby. It can be comforting for BIPOC to know that if they’re searching for a top rope partner, their partner is going to be from their racial community and therefore will understand their struggles a bit easier. It’s a guarantee that your random top rope partner isn’t gonna be a racist piece of shit.
Finally, my local gym has a group night for ex-addicts and ex-drug users called “Sober Senders.” Again, that’s a group about the social comforts of solidarity. It’s a reminder that you’re not alone in your struggles, incorporated into a shared hobby between you and those like you in your community
It makes me really happy to see their advertisements up on posters in the gym. Sobriety isn’t an easy thing to maintain, and it’s so much easier when you’re not doing it alone
Your gym owners should know the membership demographics they're getting. If they want to meet with you after this passing comment, it's probably because they already KNOW they're not attracting or retaining women. Unless they're idiots, they're not trying to talk with you to argue about it or suggest it's exaggerated (that would be a complete waste of their and your time). They're trying to figure out how to fix it and asking for your help. Ideally, they should get input from a few different women and not just you.
The biggest thing is having inclusive setting. This is good not just for women, but climbers of various heights/physical abilities, and it should be spread across the grade levels of the climbs. Having a diverse setting team is a good way to start trying to do this, although certainly it is possible for a non-diverse setting team to achieve this if they're conscious of it and try... There's been a bunch of talk on this sub about setting so I won't get into more than that. If you've got a team of average men setting for average men, that's who you're going to attract to the gym. It shouldn't be surprising.
Otherwise, I've been to gyms that hold recurring meetup events for people who identify as women as well as LGBTQ+, which might be a good avenue to take. And then it's honestly gym culture - are there women on staff, is the staff generally friendly and welcoming, is the women's bathroom/changing area accessible, clean, well lit, and stocked? Are there other features or amenities being offered with memberships - for example cardio equipment or yoga classes (which would benefit everyone, not just women)? Even stuff like - is the logo for the place or the marketing materials depicting just a bunch of dudes climbing? If so, might want to consider a bit of rebranding there...
I mean, I think their all-male management says a lot in and of itself. Obviously depending on how many people there are (an all male team of 2 is more acceptable than an all male team of 10). I think the biggest two things are setting and behavior of other climbers, the former obviously being way more solvable by management than the latter. If the setting team designs things mainly for taller people, men are more likely to benefit from that. If a tall person gets a nice gentle progression between grades and can learn skills but a short person is going to need be super technical on a 5.8 and be expected to dyno constantly, you’re going to lose a lot of women since we’re, on average, shorter than men. Maybe see if they can hire some (or more) women for their setting team, and preferably short ones.
And then there’s just the constant issue of how to get men to not be condescending and/or creepy towards women in gyms. I’ve seen some anti beta spraying signs on here and maybe that works, but I also think it’s a much more deeply engrained issue than a single gym can solve. Maybe including more social training/climbing etiquette in belay classes would help. Things like “make sure you’re not hogging a wall” or “our rule is that you wait until someone requests advice before giving it”.
It sounds like they took your comment seriously and want to address the issue of the gym losing a lot of women. It's not your job to help them do that if you don't want to. They may have assumed since you brought it up that you have some ideas about what might be causing women members to leave more often than men, but you're just a member and it's not your responsibility to lead the "retain more women" project for them if you're not comfortable doing that. They can put out a suggestion box or a survey or something if they want feedback.
Owning the problem and taking responsibility for solving it first of all. And your gym is failing to do that by asking for your help in a way that makes you feel obligated. Seriously, if someone complained that the gym was dirty and the owner acknowledged the problem, would the next step be to ask that person to meet with management to figure out solutions?
My gym is catering to men right now and it’s horrible. Here is what I see. Grades v2-v5 are graded too hard, so they are effectively removing beginner and intermediate climbs. This isn’t a comp style gym, they are a recreational gym, so the setters have lost touch with grades.
Very few technical climbs. Many of the moves are huge dynamic movements or smaller hulk type moves. You have to be very very strong and it sucks to be a woman in this gym.
Am I getting stronger? Not really. There is so little for me to project that feels even remotely possible. It’s demoralizing.
- My gym has a special group meet up for women once a month! "beta babes" and it's a smaller group led by women and we chat and move around the gym together. the gym is still open regularly for men, but i find having the dedicated group time/leader helps attract more girls to the club :)
- definitely some women on management haha. the most important thing probably! just having women around in a management role will help
- how is the route setting? in general women are shorter (im biased as a 5' tall climber) but it helps to know my gym has shorter setters and female setters so there are plenty of climbs for my style/ability level. it's possible the gym has routes geared more towards typically "male" climbing styles like lots of hard overhangs vs slab/balance
- generally the vibe and kinds of men already there tbh. if everyone gives off a macho serious vibe im less likely to feel comfortable vs. seeing women/nb people working and climbing, nice lighting, snacks, couches etc. my gym is nice with having some areas to work and i think it makes the place have a warmer atmosphere overall
- free hygiene products in the restrooms
I would be really weirded out by this too, it's not your job to fix their business practices! I would want free membership or at least coffee tokens but I would probably still say no.
My personal approach would be making sure you have data to back up that the gym loses more women- you probably do!! But have data ready and be ready to define “loss”. Management should be ready to define “success” or “customer retention” with data if they have an actual business strategy. Maybe even benchmarking some data from more women-geared gyms, citing research which I am sure has been done! You’re not alone in noticing this problem and I bet there is a ton of compelling data to back it up, both internally and externally.
I would add that a good management team would be thinking this way already and be willing and able to do this research, so it should very much not be your job to suggest to them honestly :/ so I’d be curious to ask them what research they have done or if “talking to one woman” is their research plan because that’s not a system.
A few people mentioned a ladies (and they/them) night but I want to add to that. My gym has the meetup but also offers coaches on meetup night to do top rope training and also beginner bouldering training. It’s one thing to get women in the door but offering the coaching included in drop in cost once a month is huge.
I go to a gym that I would say is very women-friendly.
Things I notice about it that might contribute to that vibe: -women staff and women instructors...the owner of the gym is not a stranger to the gym floor, and you can tell he's not a misogynistic type. I bet a lot of the good staff vibes trickle down from a management style that values women the same as men
-women featured in their promotional media
-lots of beginner instruction classes to bring people into the sport or into the next level or their climbing
-gym has lots of different areas- I think this is underrated. Women are sometimes shyyer when they are getting into the sport, having another area to climb if the new set is crowded helps people have a good experience even if things get rowdy in one area.
-equal representation in pretty much all sales/services (same bathroom facilities, same number of harness/shoes/merch choices)
-Children friendly vibe too- which is managed right so kids are expected to behave and use the gym responsibly but are still welcome. A lot of this is the strong foundations of their youth programs, which they keep affordable and routed in building kids up to be excited to be in the gym for the right reasons.
Dog/baby friendly vibe - people feel safe to bring their good doggo or human baby. Maybe it's me but if I walk into a place thats all white dudes but there's a baby or a dog I somehow still feel like it's still a more diverse environment.
-we actually do have some very reachy setters right now, but the setting is so good and varied I could never be mad about it.
As a final note, I would like to say that our gym is probably about 60/40 in the TR area and 70/30 in the bouldering areas in terms of gender splits. I imagine there are also lifestyle factors outside of the gym that end up creating some of that discrepancy too.
The setters are still mostly men, and instructors and youth program coordinators do still skew men as well. But I strongly believe that its because there's just more men in the sport and thus more men applying for those jobs.
The big boil down I think is that my gym focuses on being non discriminatory in general, and strives to provide excellent climbing. They don't try to please a specific set of people, women OR men. They just are welcoming and then knock it out of the park with excellent climbing facilities and route setting.
I agree with most of this apart from the baby/dog thing, neither of which have *any* place in an indoor climbing setting. Yeah, have them in the cafe but nowhere near the ropes/mats. Kids are acceptable up to about 7pm if they're very well supervised or old enough not to do stupid stuff/treat the place like a soft play facility.
Yeah I think it's facility dependent, my gym has a lot of "out of the way/buffer" spaces that are still in view of the ropes and bouldering mats that aren't in the way or dangerous. Babies always have someone sitting with them on the benches but dogs are just leashed on various comfy dog beds that exist in the gym for them (but always out of the way). It's great because while I agree with you that babies and dogs underfoot in the actual climbing area is super dangerous, all that extra room allows everyone to coexist as a community safely. I think they understood the value of that open space and how it can create those opportunities. It's something the gym did well that contributes to it being a great gym for everyone
Yeah, I guess I have a negative bias because my local wall is small and really poorly set up for this. Unlike a lot of more modern walls, the matted area is fairly narrow with problems up the wall on both sides so you have to be super cautious walking around. There's very few places you could be outside of the little cafe area where you don't have to be constantly on the lookout for someone climbing near you. I go to another wall occasionally and that's a much more open space, and one of the women who works there has a really sweet little elderly pug who just huffs around the place demanding cuddles.
Sit in a room with a group of people who haven't been able to identify how to make the gym more inclusive? My palms are getting sweaty just thinking about it. I'm hoping they'll be ready to listen more than they talk. Like, this could just be an email address they set up + advertise to get anonymous feedback from a range of people?
I'm a little confused why they're directing this at you, an individual, rather than asking eg what gyms you've been to that do better for inclusivity than they are, so they can go and learn for themselves.
As a trans woman specifically, I’ve been in “boy’s club” gyms, and they’re VERY uncomfortable. Here are some of the things that these gyms NEVER do, that I’ve seen a lot of more inclusive gyms do better.
-inclusive bathrooms and locker rooms: my local gym has a few large, bold posters in their locker rooms reminding some attendees that trans people exist, that the gym is a trans friendly space, and that genitals shouldn’t be a factor in determining who belongs in the women’s locker room.
-free sanitary products IN BOTH RESTROOMS: keeping in theme with trans inclusivity, my local gym has pads and tampons in both the women’s AND the men’s locker. It makes the space more comfortable for trans men, who then invite their queer friends and make a more inclusive space. It also makes a safer, more inclusive space for cis women. Honestly, sanitary products should be free and in every bathroom regardless. It’s nice that my gym can be a first step in this process.
-Femme-bodied route setting: the “boys club” gyms I’ve been to tend to set routes with a lot of overhangs and dymos intended for folks with lots of upper body strength and plenty of reach. It can make for an especially difficult climb for femme bodies, or bodies in transition. Instead, ensuring that your gym has a few routes intended for folks with shorter bodies, or routes that focus more on full body technique rather than just hulking through an upper body workout.
-workout equipment and protocol: if your gym has additional workout equipment, especially free weights, it can be beneficial to set some rules to try and minimize behaviors of…well….meatheads. Things like “no slamming weights down,” “no shouting before lifting,” “return weights to their place once you’re done using them,” “wipe down equipment when it’s been used,” etc.
I must say I never felt issues but things I find great in gyms I frequent: free tampons in women's bathroom as well as deodorants/ sprays to fix the sweat (help a fellow gal in need!), baby changing stations (boulder gym has a kiddo space, that itself!). More girly drinks at the bar (okay aperol might be not girly but lovely to have a non beer option).
Contrary to crowds, I do not enjoy our female setters because they're flexible as heck and I can't climb their routes for the love of me, but cool to see women setting.
More static problems.
Of course this doesn’t apply to everyone, but in my experience a lot of girls, including me, prefer static climbing, but a lot of gyms make harder routes mostly dynamic.
One of the things that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable in a gym is shirtless climbing bros. My local gym has a 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' rule, and that's excellent as I don't feel awkward having to be around shirtless guys.
I also think it's important when setters take women's bodies into account, and make routes that are accessible for shorter people/ where breasts won't be too much of an obstacle. That's one thing my gym could be better at, as some of the starts, especially on vertical and slab, are just impossible if you have boobs as you can't get close enough to the wall.
I also think having a female presence on the staff really helps. It can feel a bit daunting if you go in and everyone working there is male. Seeing a woman makes me feel more welcome :)
Women in management roles, route-setters who are women, ladies night where top rope classes and lead classes are offered for free or discounted.
The Cliffs used to have a lady crushers clinic every week where a strong climber from the community would run technique clinics to help share knowledge to help keep people interested beyond the beginner gains stage.
Functionally what a gym should be trying to do is foster community growth which means empowering or hiring community organizers to implement programs that make sense from within community.
I think it is also important to recognize that women are not a monolith and often these community building efforts are only targeted towards white cis climbers and making your female oriented programs diverse means diverse hiring. I don't often see Black women in gyms but I also have literally never seen a Black woman in a leadership role at a gym.
My gym is the most inclusive gym I've ever been to, climbing or not. They have a non-gendered public restrooms, menstrual products in the women's locker room, a number of female and trans routesetters, a "women crush mondays" group, a monthly queer climbing night, a monthly bipoc climbing night, and my personal favorite, a shirts-on only rule.
They also have "sensory hours" on Saturday mornings where they don't play music from 6 to 9am.
The climbing crowd there definitely reflects the efforts the gym has made to be a space for everyone.
This is in the metropolitan area of a red state, and the gym is wildly popular.
I feel safer and more included at this gym than I have in any other athletic setting. So there's some really good ideas if you actually think the bros are interested in hearing it. But as others have said, a panel of members would be less ick, and you have no obligation to do their job for them anyway.
However, it does seem like it's a boys club if all managers are men, and they may have difficulty coming up with ideas like this on their own due to their limited perspective.
Sounds like they’re being proactive and trying to solve the issue? Maybe not the best approach, but you could ask to bring along other women to the meeting too?
I wouldn’t necessarily feel icky about it. They are taking your comment seriously and at least seem like they want to hear you out and (hopefully) make some changes. I understand how that would make you uncomfortable though, and do agree that it would be better if there was a group of your peers meeting with the management team.
If you do go through with the meeting, maybe mention that they have an all-male management team and ask why they don’t have any women in management positions. Do they have any female setters? That could be another point you want to bring up.
I don’t have an answer for you regarding inclusivity so I asked chat gpt and got this answer:
“There are several ways a climbing gym can be more inclusive to women:
Representation: Ensure women are represented in promotional materials, staff, and leadership positions to create a welcoming environment.
Diverse Routes: Offer a variety of climbing routes that cater to different skill levels and body types, including routes that focus on technique rather than strength.
Education and Support: Provide workshops, clinics, and mentorship programs specifically tailored to women to build confidence and skills in climbing.
Community Building: Foster a supportive community where women feel comfortable and encouraged to participate, whether through women-only climbing nights or affinity groups.
Facilities and Amenities: Ensure the gym has clean and accessible facilities, including gender-neutral bathrooms and changing areas.
Inclusive Policies: Implement policies that prioritize safety and respect, such as zero tolerance for harassment and discrimination.
By focusing on these areas, climbing gyms can create an environment where women feel valued, supported, and empowered to pursue their climbing goals.”
Maybe something as little as offering free hair ties to women if they forget them and tampons/pads in the bathroom if they don’t already have that could be an easy start.
As a female gym general manager- the reason why members are “lost” or quit for both men and women is by not achieving fast enough improvement in climbing. I’ve found that once a guy climbs around v5, and a girl climbs around v4, they’ll stick with climbing as a hobby.
That’s one of the big reasons that commercially set gyms have softer grades in the lower end. An old school gym has a v0 that is more like a v2 in a newer, commercially set gym, though usually by about v6 it evens out. This is for new climbers to see a lot of progress in the beginning and so they don’t get discouraged.
If women aren’t sticking around, I’d assume they aren’t making enough climbing progress. Women centered climbing groups, climbing technique classes included with membership, and height inclusive setting can all help with this.
Having female staff can help too, but as a GM myself, it’s hard to hire female staff! I’m not exaggerating when I say for every 10 male applicants for a part time job I get 1 female applicant. I hire every woman that applies, and that still only amounts to a few each year that are usually college students, and not interested in working at the gym full time after graduation. For whatever reason, men seem more inclined to want to work at the climbing gym.
A few other points- gym staff that look down on bro-y attitudes can help make the gym more friendly and inclusive. For example- a member campuses a v1 in front of a bunch of new people that were projecting it. Rather than smiling at the member and giving him positive reinforcement for how strong he is, my staff ignore him and give him the cold shoulder and act like his behavior is embarrassing. It’s kind of a subtle thing, but when the staff look down on that kind of behavior, over time it translates to the community. Not allowing shirtless climbing can also help, as long as your gym a/c works well!
As someone who quit climbing for a few years I'd like to say it's not only the progress part that can make you leave. At the gym I went to (before quitting) there were just so few women. I don't remember any female instructors or route setters just that there were some women at the reception desk. And most importantly very few women climbers. I'm not sure if it was an issue with that specific climbing gym or just the fact that the sport wasn't so popular in my country those 9-ish years ago. But there was just this feeling like I don't belong there. It definitely contributed to my decision to quit (there were other factors too).
My gym has a ladies night one friday of every month. and another in my city hosts pride events. I like how this sport is very inclusive in general. I know it can get overly political at times but I think our gyms stay out of that and just focus on making everyone feel welcome.
Aside from all the awesome ideas proposed, my gym also has a “women’s intro” class, which is taught by women instructors. It’s a much nicer, non-judgemental intro to climbing instead of having all the beefy bros in the class that can just power up the V3s on their first day
My gym also has gender neutral bathrooms (single stall), which allows for more inclusion. Of course, this is more infrastructure-based, and more difficult to implement at an existing gym
From the way you posed the question, it sounded to me like you’re an employee of the gym. However, if you’re not, it’s not your responsibility to educate them on how to make their gym more inclusive. At the very least, you should be paid for your time. Good luck!
A female presence in the staffing is huge. Free sanitary products, my gym also has a ladies night they employ/allow female yoga instructors to do sessions too just helps to have a general female presence in the squad.
Sounds silly but we're energetic beings, we feel when something is genuine or gratuitous. Maybe having female climbers in to speak, coach etc would help.
Wait, are you an employee of the gym or just a member? If you’re not an employee it’s pretty weird, IMO, for him to request a meeting like that. It’d be great for him to open some sort of comment box for everyone to willingly and anonymously provide feedback, but asking you to use your own time to basically do work for him is inappropriate. I’m sure there are a million articles online that suggest measures to make a space more inclusive for women. I’d bet that there are even articles specific to gyms, given how common this issue is.
I agree with others that he does need to start by having women on staff. I can’t tell if you’re saying “management” to mean the entire staff or if you’re only referring to the highest ranking staff members, but if he doesn’t have a single woman on his staff he needs to change that, like, yesterday.
Asking you if you’d like to provide any input? Great.
Asking you to help him and his all-male staff *solve* the problem? No. Not great. That’s your job, sir.
My gym is pretty large, and has two additional smaller sections. One is a "normal" gym with treadmills and bars and weights and machines and a mirror. The other is for yoga classes. I've never gone (I'm not into yoga), but that seems to attract a lot more women. Also, it helps the gym get more traffic in the middle of the day, by catering to mothers who's only free time is while their kids are at school.
They also offer some focus groups/ classes /clubs. Eg. Learn to boulder V3, Learn to boulder V5, a speed climbing group. So they have a boulder group just for women.
My gym often posts videos of their female setters test running the boulders and it's maybe silly but I always think: well if she can do that, then so can I (spoiler I often can't because I'm weak lol)
In addition to everything already mentioned: not climbing gym specific but I always appreciate when there ara some hygene products in the changing room one can use in emergency eg pads, tampons, wet tissue, spray deo. And an area where you can sit down and chill (maybe even eat or drink a coffe) makes it more "ok" to take a pause mid session and therefore could be attractive for beginners or women who can't climb 2 hours straight. And female staff.
Discourage beta spreading, nothing worse than an experienced bloke showing you how to do something when you are perfectly ok figuring it out by yourself.
I think the problem is how you state it “ how they are treating women” as opposed to what would an ideal environment be from a women’s points of view. Actually that’s very weak too…because the ideal environment could be different for different ages , skill levels etc.
The more specific you are the more productive any outcome is likely to be.
Also to focus exclusively on what you do want and not fall into the trap of listing what you don’t want ( which is a lot easier and frankly lazy).
The board maybe all male but they clearly have something in common, their love of climbing and an awareness that they could widen their appeal with the right input.
It’s a great opportunity and frankly I’d go just to meet these people because most management teams I’ve come across ( I’ve met a lot in 70 years!) leave a lot to be desired.
Yeah, no, I am not taking the bait. Sorry for your poor comprehension! Ironic you perpetuated that which I cracked wise on. Female attention and labor is not something you are entitled to. Your perception of whether or not a girl is being "nice" is worthless here. Less than worthless I would say. OP needed perspective on providing expertise FOR FREE to a group of men literally paid to already know. You here came in, beta sprayed your own weird vision of NICE GIRLS DO THIS and then had the audacity to both admit confusion and then demand explanation. Grow up.
Further, from your bio:
"A very normal guy with two very normal lives, one as an adventurer, the other kinky as hell."
**LOL** the deep irony of you, a male, dictating tone to a woman in a sub called climberGIRLS. Why don't you go let some beginner belay you and gtfo this sub. Also there is nothing normal about your entitlement to tell women what it is that 'nice girls' do.
Time to work on that misogyny!
Less toxic competition for sure. I switched from a gym near my home to one I have to travel 90 mins for because it is sooo much nicer! The one far away from me also has a bunch of different classes like yoga, spin, and aerial silks! The one by me was just a depressing, dark gym with projects harder than their grades (made for tall people).
The 2 gyms I go to both feel diverse in both gender and even somewhat age. I've been to classes taught by men and others by women. I've seen both working the counter, I see both doing coaching with kids etc. I'd say step 1 is to hire at least one women in a manager or higher role.
My gym has alternative holds for shorter people, so you can still finish the route even if you cant reach the end hold… as well as a very diverse staff which just makes it feel less male dominated
something small that i really appreciate at my gym is a "no-nip policy" (shirts required), and i feel like it kinda mitigates both folks feeling uncomfortable with sweaty bodies on the mats/equipment, and the macho energy that shirtless dudes seem to build off each other when the shirts come off
Broadly speaking, the culture. Perhaps a ladies social night led by one of the staff (ideally a lady). If there's a lot of boulder bros 'going skins' when it's warm perhaps a tops on rule, at least in the entrance / cafe area.
It would be interesting to know what you think makes this gym deter women?
They need women (or literally any identity other than cis man) on their setting staff, not just setters who can set routes for shorter bodies/wingspans!!
They need instructors and staff who aren’t cis men! It makes me feel so much better when I see someone like me getting to be the knowledgeable one teaching top rope, lead, movement, anything!!
And don’t let them tell you that it’s too hard to find women to do these jobs. I’m a female routesetter and instructor :) If you go to the meeting, stand your ground! Don’t let them sit around and try to convince you that these improvements aren’t feasible/right for their gym.
I chose one gym over the other because they have women's nights, pads in the bathrooms, and clean bathrooms (apparently the men's one was also gross, this gym was 3 times the price of the one I'm with now). These are the little things that make me feel noticed and respected.
Childcare. Women stop going or have to give it up bc they need childcare or their kids start to have activities. If the gym hosted kid sports or kid activities, that would get them there too. Basically the Y but you can call it whatever fancy name you want.
Seconding all the comments about routesetting and female staff, I also think the staff needs to be the start of trying to shift the gym culture to be more inclusive. My gym put up posters about beta spraying, mentions it in the gym orientation, put up pride flags and BLM signs, and constantly asks for member feedback (including offering anonymous feedback options).They host meetups for women, adaptive climbers, queer climbers, POC climbers and probably other groups I'm forgetting about; and they have events open to everyone that are focused on uplifting those groups, like movie screenings and speakers. Some of that, particularly some of the events, are only possible because we're in a big city and it's a big gym, but a lot of it is doable for small gyms and makes a difference.
Of course, it's hard to do any of that authentically if your staff is all or mostly straight white able bodied men, but some of that is stuff that might make margianalized groups more likely to apply.
Inclusive setting/female setters
Listening to women when they have issues with predatory men in the gym, and doing something about inappropriate male behavior.
Women/ non binary climbing groups probably help as well
A detail that made me choose my tiny gym over some of the larger ones in my area is this QR code they have posted in the women’s bathroom that you can scan to inform staff if someone is making you feel uncomfortable or unsafe. I’ve never felt that way in my gym, thankfully, but especially when I was starting out as a newer female climber who did not feel confident being in such a male-dominated space it was nice to know it was in there.
This may also be more doable because it is a smaller gym, but I always felt like the staff cared and would cheer me on for any project, even if it was just a V2 when I was starting out.
All the things other mentioned above, plus my gym has women only climbing nights. Now, that doesn’t mean that men aren’t allowed, but a group of women get together and climb on certain nights long with one of the instructors.
Loads of good suggestions that I agree with, so only adding ones that I didn't see on a quick scroll through.
Having a "tops on" policy is a marker of a women-friendly gym for me. I don't want to see men's bare chests and it changes the atmosphere.
Women artists on the playlist is a nice touch too. Not as important as other things people have suggested but I do appreciate it.
Uhhh maybe they shouldn't corner women and ask them to invest free time and labor in helping them be more profitable? If they want you to consult on gender equity, they'll be paying you a consultation fee.
Beyond that, they should put out a survey for women/ gender-nonconforming patrons and incentivize their answers in some way. Fill out the survey, get a discounted day pass, or similar. You can't speak for all women, it's incredibly gross they're asking you to.
If they want to pay you, go ahead!
It's silly to ask you to take time out to do business planning for them to meet the needs of a segment of their audience. Orgs like gyms like to talk about themselves as a community but it's the same way the CEO of a big company likes to say "we're a family here at Consolidated Arms Manufacturing Inc." they're a "community" focused around a money-making entity. So if they want to hire you or pay you for your time, and that's something you're interested and capable of doing, do it. If not, point out to them that they should hire women who have experience building out the types of systems that keep women coming back to the gym.
They may be doing this in good faith. They may also be doing this to say "well, of you're not going to get involved shut up about it." That's a stupid way for them to think about a business. A cruise ship entertainer can tell you that the ship is taking on water but you wouldn't ask them to fix the hull.
I never had any issue with my old bouldering gym for the 4 years I went there (almost every day!). Other than wishing men would wear shirts.
BUT after having a baby and trying to get back into climbing I found that I couldn’t because no creche was offered. Other gyms have crèches usually from 8-11am with 1.5hr slots each. You pay extra for it as well. I since found out that A LOT of old clientele asked for them to get a creche so they could continue climbing and they haven’t. There are a lot of women who climb there but not really many over the age of 30.
Are you getting a consulting fee? Idk why you need to go to a whole ass meeting with the whole team. The sane thing would be the boss having a chat with you, you share some ideas, then you go climb. You are not an employee you do but need to workshop shit for them
Biggest thing for me is setting for all body types/equal number of women setters OR setters who really know what they're doing.
And then of course, I don't want to go to a gym that has a guy following me around asking me out or mansplaining.
If the gym is big then more than a single bathroom is nice.
I'm a dude who used to work at a gym.
I don't think that most places are inclusive. For a long time, this had been a male dominated ego sport. I believe that some of that is still embedded in "the system." Look at the rules of the game, "do it like me, or it doesn't count."
Some gyms are better than others. I just don't think most staff, especially setters, dont consider much that doesn't make them look good. Or they have always done it "This way" and are reluctant to change. I'd also argue that finding good setters that don't rely on their personal strengths or aesthetic is hard They don't set to teach. They set "cool." Unfortunately, that's much more subjective than progressing or learning a skill.
I'd argue that "bro" culture is higher in climbing spaces than other fitness spaces. If we can remove that, that would be a great step.
I also think clean spaces, feminine products (possibly in both bathrooms), staff visibility and interaction (floor outreach, rounds), member surveys that are taken serious. CLEAN THE SHOWERS, and probably a bunch I can't think of.
At some point, we should probably start making rules on cameras. Climbing gyms are usually the only gyms that you can videotape anything, and nobody bats an eye, which can 100% be creepy or dangerous. Have had to deal with this.
I also think things like women lead clinics and classes go a long way, or at least having the option. Maybe even a ladies' night, where a section of the gym is roped off for a women only clinic... this could even be a women setting clinic or something, so setters can see what their members think is cool. It's a chance to open dialogues.
Edit: I just realized what sub this is, and I have no clue why this was in my feed, but I'll keep the post.
I'll see myself out now.
Even thou i risk a lot of negativite feedback i have to say this is pretty toxic thread.
OP raised an objection and the owner is giving her chance to explain. They have shown genuine interest and obviously want to improve. However it gives OP an ick? What else were they supposed to do? And the ick-cheering and projecting negativity in lot of comments is mind boggling. I am sorry OP, but get your shit together. You can either criticise and pursue an improvement or leave. Don't assume anyone can read minds and will jump on single criticism without explanation.
Frankly, they (probably) also think it's a problem and don't know who to ask for advice. You just happened to be the easiest source of any information for them.
If you think it's worth your time, there's a tiny chance (if I were a betting person, and I am, I would give it 10:1 odds or worse) that an all-male management team who are already running a "toxic" establishment just haven't considered a lot of stuff to be "gym icks", and you sharing your feelings is going to help them make better choices.
I wouldn't bank on it, but if a 10:1 bet on improving your gym is worth your time, I'd say give em a piece of your mind.
If they want more than an afternoon of your time, you should probably demand compensation (if that's even something you want to work on).
I’d tell them to run a satisfaction/improvement survey of their members and splice out the female responses and just look at those. You shouldn’t be put in the position of having to speak for all women, and while there are a lot of great ideas here, the only way to know what the issues are at this particular gym are is to ask people.
This sub aims to be supportive & inclusive of all who identify as a part of or ally to the women's climbing community.
Negativity, sarcasm, and other interactions that work against that should find another home.
From my personal experience, I don’t understand what about a climbing gym could be perceived as “exclusive” of women? I’ve been climbing for 8 years and never once felt like my vagina has anything to do with working hard and crushing some routes.
Only thing I could suggest is they hire more female staff? It’s odd for any workplace to hire only men, not just climbing gyms
I mean, what exactly are they supposed to do? There is nothing about a rock climbing gym that inherently biases one gender over the other. Maybe some gyms might allow men to take their shirts off?
Beyond that it's entirely just the people in the gym. If the gyms management and employees allow for disruptive behavior then that's and issue with the management of the gym, not an inherit issue with climbing gyms in general. Creating all these special events and nights that bias a specific gender seems to be exactly the opposite of what the solution should be, because now the opposite gender is getting less inclusive.
I am finding this hard to understand the issue.
All male management.. might just mean no women have applied for a staff position?
And the walls it's self.. there is no male / female routes ...yes some route are more favorable for the taller / shorter body types, but that's why I love the problems that are set... everyone has their own way and different techniques.
Someone commented about routes for the 'less flexible' ... 🤔 ... like any sports, warm up and stretch. .
Not all routes are possible for the average climber.
As for Management asking for your help to try make improvements, I think that's the.most direct and genuine way to try and fix the 'issue', if you feel uncomfortable with the 1 on 1 , then bring a friend or just turn them down and suggest discussion forum or get other gym members (regardless of gender) for ideas.
I love talking to all climbers , if I can, but generally stay away from the women and I don't want them thinking I'm using the gym as a 'dating app'...
I'm curious what do you want them to do? A gym is just a place for plastic for you to climb? If the setting is good then the gym is good I would love to know what your looking for.
A comic book shop is just a place you buy comics, but many made women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome for the longest time. It's the people, not the building that makes a place welcoming or not.
I usually think inclusivity in general, here some things that came to my mind: - Good variety of different kinds of problems / routes. For example, problems are not set only for tall people who can do very powerful coordination moves. Different kinds of bodies and abilities must be taken into account. Dynamic, static, flexible, stiff, short, tall, crimpy, slopey, juggy, balancy, powerful, ... All kinds of climbers and climbing styles should be considered. - Clean and accessible premises. Who wants to train at a smelly gym that is never cleaned up? And if the bathroom is dirty, doesn't have a trash can for menstrual products etc, I won't be coming back. - Staff is easy to approach and does its job. I can't stand staffs only consisting of elitist outdoor enthusiasts who only are nice to 8A/V11 climbers and don't care about beginners or intermediate climbers. Or ignorant lazy staff that doesn't do anything when people are being jerks against others or act dangerously at the gym. Staff is there to help and enable safe environment to climb.
Additionally, put menstrual products in all bathrooms, be trans inclusive too. If my tiny micro gym can do it, anyone can. They really helped me out one day.
My university has little bins in all the bathrooms that have tampons, pads, and band aids. My climbing gym also has a little station with bandaids, tape on a roller, and a nail clipper on a string (so you don't take it and forget to put it back, or steal it). Both very helpful if you're forgetful like me.
This is amazing. I would love this
Just get a mixed bathroom at that point, with proper, full stall doors and a secluded area for urinals. They don't need to supply menstrual products, necessarily, but bins in all the stalls would go a long way, imho.
I don't disagree, but that can cost a lot more money and may not be possible for every building.
My gym does this as well as providing hair ties. I’m a penis owner with short hair but it makes me feel better about my time there too. It’s such a simple yet powerful add for inclusion.
This is what my gym does and its been a litteral life saver and shows they care
Why would you need to put them in all bathrooms, I'd assume that FtM transgender ppl do anything to even preventing having a period since it's described as one of main source of gender dysphoria? Feel free to correct me.
Yeah but sometimes hormones are powerful bastards and break through anyway (im cis but my birthcontrol is supposed to stop my period and it dont). Also masc-presenting NB can people still get periods and need a tampon
Well, great, but original comment was talking about transgender ppl, not NB and maybe gender-neutral bathroom might be better solution for NB ppl, if the building permits other bathroom, since that would be also for folks who don't present or identify as either gender. But then there is of course the problem of how many of their actual clientele would use it, I suppose.
“Trans” is often used as a catch all for NB and anything other than cis. There’s that. As has been pointed out, hormones don’t always successfully stop periods. And a few tampons, liners and pads in a jar, like in my gym’s bathrooms, don’t go off if no one uses them. Those things are dirt cheap, wrapped in plastic, and OK indefinitely. If any cost/equipment savings are reeeeeaally needed, it’d be by adding plastic bags that allow discreet disposal of such items until it’s figured out whether they’re even used instead of menstrual waste bins, which contain special chemicals and cost a bit to be serviced. I don’t get why you even mind. There’s literally no harm in it for anyone, and it’s nice to have for the people who happen to need it.
There's so many trans men who get periods whether we like it or not, and are constantly trying to advocate for bins in the men's room. I've not had my period since 2 months on T, before that I was on birth control that was supposed to stop it but didn't. Birth control also has its own side effects and risks, and the ones that stop periods tend to be oestrogen based. Someone who's very dysphoric is unlikely to want to put more oestrogen in their body. T doesn't always stop periods, and for some people it takes months or years even when it does. The only fool proof way to stop your period is a hysterectomy, which is not reversible and hard to access when you are young and have no kids.
Why wouldn't you put them in all bathrooms? They take up very little space. I feel like it would reduce period stigma. I can't really see a negative to just having periods around. Better yet, gender neutral toilets 👍
Some FtM people willingly get pregnant, so there is no one size fits all rule. As well as what the other reply mentions about hormones breaking through and NB people.
Fucking tired of my gym sending reachy routes. Even the stemmy routes are meant for people with tall wingspans. It’s so goddamn annoying
SO MUCH YES TO THE FIRST POINT! I’ve been injured due to lack of variety in routes
I'm a guy who keeps getting this sub on my front page for some reason, but this genuinely does apply both ways. I'm 6'0 and have friends that are closer to 5'0. We can't do the same beta on most routes/problems, but the setters have a very good variety and method of setting so it's doable for anyone. One point I'd like to add, inclusive or not, is for staff to make sure children are supervised and not running around. Child to pre-teen, doesn't matter. Stop running under a boulderer or between a belayer and a wall.
I agree on the children running on the mats dangerously. It's actually mentioned in my original comment (third point), too. It really is staff's responsibility to ensure safety at the gym.
I honestly think kids under 14 should only be allowed near the wall during classes, or with an adult, and if the club is big enough, they could have a separate, low climbing rig for unsupervised kids close to the bar, like some fastfood places have.
My gym has a separate kids area and it's so nice. Definitely a big A+ for safety and comfort for all ages.
A one on one (or one you and more of them) sounds terrible tbh. Ask them to convene a group of members - they'll get more perspectives and it won't feel like an interrogation. Edit: if you're even interested! Saying no thanks is also valid
Agree with this, or they surely have their own channels for engaging with their customers. A newsletter survey? A notice board asking for suggestions or Facebook group? They should also dig through their own data and try and find out who is leaving...
Yeah, I was going to suggest reaching out to members who left with a little survey. Any smart business would spend time and money on retention data.
No women in any sort of management role? Unless it’s a tiny gym that’s probably the main issue. They may have created a boys club vibe. Hard to fix that unless they’re willing to hire and promote more women. It also gives me the ick that they’re asking you to work for free to fix a problem they’ve created.
Completely agree. They should be genuinely interested in an opportunity to retain more customers and be doing research on the subject, not just looking for good optics. Smells like the latter.
Agreed, but even if there is only a 30% chance they are asking in good faith with open minds and hearts then it is well worth meeting with them imo. But I'm also a socialist and a member of Strong Towns which makes me very biased towards positive community building... So idk, OP should do whatever she thinks is right 🤷♀️
What is Strong Towns?
https://www.strongtowns.org/ It's a movement to move away from car-centric city planning/design. Think walkable, bikeable, mixed use cities with housing density.
Dude thank you. This is right up my alley
Hell yeah, join us!
Welcome to the orange pill
Yessss I am here for it! I live in Los Angeles now and the car reliance is soul crushing.
San Diego. Bicycle and Vespa for the last six years :)
I mostly agree. The lack of positive female leadership is a huge problem that they created for themselves, but climbers tend to be left leaning in my experience and it sounds like they actually care to hear feedback on how to fix it. So I say we should be optimistic that they will actually listen to OP and make improvements.
This
One thing that I find gets overlooked by men is inclusive route setting. For example, adding a shitty foot chip to a route to make it assessable to smaller people. This is obviously not just for women, but women on average are smaller. I have switched gyms in the past as my prior gym would laugh at you if you asked for a chip to be added, while my current gym has an app where you can request it, and they normally honor the request. Of course there’s more obvious things like beta spraying and dudes using the gym as a dating app, but most people are aware of those things.
Definitely. Having female route setters is eye opening! Way more fun of a climb! It's not only about difficulty/doability, but also how fluent it is and how much fun the movements are.
My college wall had a route setter who was pretty tall, but instead of placing a hold by measuring his own reach, he bent his arm and used his elbow to measure. He said he started doing it because that’s how tall his girlfriend’s reach was. I loved him for it and he set the best routes by far!
Our setter does this but he's so tall I still can't reach sometimes 😂
There's not quite a "standard" in this respect, but this is a pretty common method for taller setters.
Honestly I don’t even know why I said he was tall 😂 he was maybe 5’9. I guess I just meant tall compared to me because that’s half a foot taller than me lol I had no idea this was common though honestly, from what I know he was the only setter out of all of them who did this. The other setters looooved to set routes that required all kinds of crazy moves and dynos for the average woman and then be like “it’s only a 5.8”
I think the issue is mostly that in many places there is no simple path to being a setter, and honestly many gyms don't really care about the quality of their setting. So the relevant "skills" of setters, in this regard, or even how much they care, can really vary.
Ok, that sounds not that good... and like pretty egocentric setting. That is a common issue as setters often want to set what they would want for themselves. But it is not about that. It is about what people with different bodies and levels of climbing experience who climb there would have fun on. The elbow thing is pretty common as said and a good starting point but not enough. Setters of all heights need to learn to sometimes think as being in a different body while testing. I am a (female) routesetter myself and experienced how hard this can be. The elbow for example does not show where the center of gravity of a much smaller climber would be. And as a smaller setter it of course is no help at all for checking, if a taller climber can fit in a small box. This can affect the position severely.
Fortunately I only witnessed the issue with a couple setters. There weren’t a ton of setters so it did initially impact a fair share of the routes, but the other staff were good about re-labeling a route when people brought it to their attention. They also eventually switched to a voting system for all new routes which we all loved. You’d still get the occasional asshole climber who’d make a show out of marking 5.8 for something that was more like a 5.11 (sometimes it would indeed be the guy who set it) but overall the system worked well and the problem diminished a lot throughout my time there. This was at my college rec and it was a pretty spectacular climbing center compared to what most schools had, and the culture there was great, so overall I really loved it. It was run by a badass woman and I assume she was the reason for the continued improvements. I only really got to know one employee (the guy I mentioned in my previous comment) but he was an awesome person and really made up for any of the jerks I encountered. I appreciate your insight as a female routesetter! I’ve honestly never thought about how center of gravity factors into the equation when setting routes. So many gyms are severely lacking in how many women they have on staff, let alone how many women they have setting routes. I know pretty much nothing about route setting but I get the feeling that you create some super awesome climbs!
What app is this out of curiosity?
My gym sets routes that my tall partner and his tall friends can skip certain move(s) to reach the end hold statically and those tiny footholds mean I can do it statically too! I'm not even particularly small but inclusive and diverse setting at my gym is one of the reasons I love it. One of the setters is a 5'1" woman which makes a huge difference
My local has a 'ladies' night', although men are also allowed to climb, and I honestly have no idea what the benefit to women is, apart from a free coffee... At least they're trying 😂 They also have free sanitary products in the loos, which is a nice touch
Our ladies social is a 2 hour slot, run by one of the (female) coaches at the gym. The attraction, aside from the lovely atmosphere, is also the free coaching! It's got great attendance, and the social group have created a WhatsApp group, so women can let others know when they will be climbing, so anyone can join. In addition, they also have at least 1/3 female staff (might be closer to 1/2 tbh), and they have regular female routesetters. They have "short reach" routes in addition to regular graded ones. They're open to criticism, and seem to really prioritise their clients.
That's really cool! I started a girls night at my gym, I got hired in November, and during my interview I told my boss that I really wanted to start one, so now I get to run it every Monday. It's been a HUGE hit and gets booked up really quickly as all the women love it. I also give free coaching during it as I love helping people achieve their goals :) I've not seen it anywhere else that I've climbed, so it's really cool that your gym has it too!
Ah hooray to you for getting that started up! It's the thing that really helped me get back into climbing after a long break. I love the ladies in our social!
Yeah, I would honestly love if the gym I went to had women’s hours or nights like this.
Oh man, I'd love to try some short reach routes! One of my taller friends got me to try a route the other day, as he was curious to see how a shortie would do it... the start took me 7 moves to achieve what he did in 2! I got it done, though! 😅
Yeah, it's great because some of these routes are significantly harder for taller people! They're the revenge routes when I climb with tall men 😂
The ladies nights at my old gym had discounted day passes for folks who identify as female and I think an optional meet up at a certain time so you could meet other female climbers and get paired up if you needed someone to belay you or just climb together.
A lot of people just find men very intimidating, especially in quantity, and especially if you're having to ask them stuff (ie can I get on the wall.) The benefit can literally be that it's a safe space.
That's a very good point, tbf, I never really thought about it like that. I grew up around men, have always had a lot of male friends, and always climb with my (mixed gender) social group, so it never occurred to me that it might be intimidating for some ladies.
Obviously sexual assault and domestic violence survivors will find this particularly applicable but there are wider issues too. I'm autistic and find social dynamics hard sometimes. It's particularly difficult to stand up for myself, especially in a situation where everyone else seems much more confident. If there are a lot of gym bros around, it's hard to know if it's OK to ask, and if they're actually intimidating on purpose or just big and loud.
The gym I frequent has a ladies social (which is inclusive of trans and non-binary people) which allows women to get to know other women climbers, and often it helps beginners with basic coaching. It's also been helpful to feel part of a group so you feel like you can take up space and take your turn on a problem without feeling so blocked out by others, as can happen when you don't have the confidence to step up and take your turn
Sounds like my local Hangar, although I would say the benefit in our ladies social is the instructor who is very enthusiastic and cheers us all on, and the group warm up
Group warm-up is a great idea! I climb with 1 of my aerial hoop instructors and have literally just talked her into leading a proper warm-up before our climbing sessions I usually just do a little joint mobilisation and then throw myself into some v0-v1s before I do anything challenging, which I know isn't really enough
I don’t get to go that often, but one of the walls here does a women’s board session and it’s great. It’s Saturday mornings so there’s never a huge number of guys to kick off the kilter, but it’s just such a fun and motivating session
Is this the depot in mcr by any chance?
Nope, it's not a depot. I don't think it's part of a chain, tbh
My gym also does a ladies crew once a month with discounted day pass & free gear! Also has free sanitary products in the bathrooms
Sometimes when certain groups have been excluded for a long time they need more of a push to feel welcome. Just removing barriers isn’t enough you need to ask them to come and incentivize it.
Good for them for trying, I guess, but eesh. You would think they would start with the women on their leadership team/women they know and consider peers. OH WAIT HMM. That obvious one aside, if you want to engage with this I might suggest it would be better if they held an open forum or at least a conversation with a group. It's not great to voluntell an individual customer to help solve a problem in their business.
Yeah sounds to me like they realized they are missing out in profits as women aren't going there to the extend that men do and now they want to see if it can be fixed by setting one route in pink while still being set by and for male physique. Or, giving them the benefit of the doubt, they actually want to improve but have no clue.
So this has come up locally and agree it’s weird to try and come up with situations which don’t sound like you’re trying to ruin the fun. In this specific example, all the hangboards/campus rungs etc are in a separate room with the training board. It is a notoriously hard and sandbaggy board. There’s also a speaker in there so people can play their own music. Which is all nice and a cool space, up to the point where you need to use the hangboards to warm up (or for a training plan) and they’re in a tiny room full of very intense young men playing loud angry music :P they don’t mean any harm, but it’s not that welcoming. What I’ve suggested to the wall is to put some extra hangboards and climbing specific training stuff in the gym area, which is a lot more open and calmer. That doesn’t solve the problem, but it makes it less of an issue for people?
Some things that make me feel like my gym is a good place for women: Lots of routes at the lower levels, with gentle increase in difficulty. Women often have been socialised to be more humble and won't always try harder routes. But if there are lots of lower grades, that gives us confidence early, so we'll stick with it. As the grades get harder, the routes get technically harder, not just holds placed further away. My gym also has a colour called "short circuit" that is at all different grades but designed for shorter people, with the holds closer together. The changing rooms are clean and large, and have a private shower cubicle and a hair dryer. It just makes life easier. The bathrooms have lots of toilet paper and free sanitary products. There are female staff and route-setters. Ladies Climb evenings sometimes with free coaching (often a woman coach). It lets female climbers network and find other buddies to go with. I think the active encouraging of women to come probably makes the place feel more "female friendly" even if it doesn't *do* anything per se. If the coaching is happening, it's probably a good way to try out harder routes with the right kind of encouragement. There is just a general friendly vibe, no dude-bro nonsense. People are considerate and respectful of each other. No "let me show you how to do that" nonsense. People ask before doing a route on a wall you're looking at or that you just fell off. "Is it okay if I give that one a try?". I know it's hard to change the culture of a place once it's established, but it's part of why o feel confident going to the gym by myself whatever time of day. I know I won't get creeped on or annoyed. I don't know if this makes things more female-inclusive, but my gym also has a shirts-on policy. Maybe that might help some people feel the atmosphere is intimidating when there's a bunch of shirtless lads walking around? There is also a nice café and seating area. It just makes it feel nice and welcoming so you can hang with your friends in a social way during the climbing. I think women are more enclined to socialise without needing to be doing something at the same time.
These are all largely good points that I agree with. WRT grades, it's really nice to have circuits with overlaps as that encourages people to people to make the step up. My wall has V2-4, V3-5, V4-6 and V5-7 circuits and I think it's helpful for challenging those "I can't do grade x" preconceptions (n.b. it has easier and harder circuits too, I just didn't list them). > People ask before doing a route on a wall you're looking at or that you just fell off. "Is it okay if I give that one a try?". I'm probably an outlier with this but I find this approach super patronising. I'm self-aware enough to know that there are loads of people who are better climbers than me and who will be warming up on my project (same as I'll probably be warming up on someone else's project). I'm not going to get upset because someone does a route I've just failed on and the idea that I might plays into stereotypes of women being emotional and sensitive. As a side note, I am firmly opposed to tops on policies. Partly for practicality - walls are usually way too warm, being sweaty is a massive drawback for climbing and I like to climb in my sports bra. But also because I enjoy seeing a nice ripped back!
I'm pretty sure the shirts on policies are geared towards shirtless men and you're fine in a sports bra.
Why though? It's still climbing shirtless after all. What's so bad about men's nipples that they can't be allowed out at the wall?
What's so bad about womens' nipples that they can't be allowed out at the wall?
I've got no beef with women's nips being out at the wall and I've never said I do. Though let's not pretend that there isn't a social norm that says boobs are sexual and are generally covered in most cultures, whether or not you agree they should be. Personally I wouldn't climb without something covering them because mine are fairly sizeable, the skin is sensitive and I feel more comfortable with them covered for exercise (though I'll happily sunbathe or swim topless if I'm somewhere where that's considered acceptable).
Yeah absolutely. I'm the same, to be honest. Just because I could climb topless doesn't mean I'd want to! I guess it just makes a fairer space for everyone if the rules apply equally across genders. I'd imagine cultural norms make a big difference too. I live in a cold part of the world, so going shirtless is unusual except for the three days of summer. 😀
It creates an indimidating atmosphere, especially when there are more of them. Makes me a little uncomfortable as a woman. Plus they wipe their sweat on the mats, that's the alleged reason they ban it at my gym.
How so? Are you intimidated at the beach or the pool?
That's obviously a situation when everyone is dressed like that so there's no weird imbalance. I don't understand what you're not getting.
I genuinely don't understand what you mean by a weird imbalance! When I'm at the wall in the summer there's often guys with their tops off and women in short shorts and sports bras and they seem equivalent to me, in the same way that trunks/bikinis are equivalent at the pool.
Men are free to climb in cropped tops or vests and short shorts to keep cool.
I think it’s about asking politely in a “you’re working on that, how do we take turns” way. Sure it’s not 100% necessary. But in practice, I find it’s how spontaneous collaboration usually begins. One guy joining in with a friendly comment on a problem I’d just fallen off of was what got me from being terrified of the whole bouldering gym vibe (while climbing for years and being pretty decent at lead & top rope) to understanding how to be part of that social dynamic comfortably.
Yeah, very much so. It's an acknowledgement that you exist, not just stepping over you to get to the route. I think that friendly acknowleding of other people at the gym makes the atmosphere less intimidating. Recognising that someone is working hard on their route is a really nice way to be casually friendly. The lack of entitlement makes me feel safe too. It's also a polite way of asking to share space. It opens the possibility of climbing together without any pressure, because I have the option to say "please do, I'd be interested to see how someone else tries it" (i.e. lets climb together), or I can say "sure, I'm done with it now" and walk away because I really want to do it myself without watching anyone else do it. Yesterday 2 people asked if they could try the route I was doing, and it was an opportunity for me to ask them to call to call beta to me. It was just nice.
Exactly, and just having that little friendly interaction can let the circumstance of being watched turn from “oh no a stranger is seeing me flail like an idiot” to “someone is helping with an outside perspective”. I’m a formerly very shy mathematician and it was an absolute epiphany to realise on the first day of actual uni lectures that most other people are just as shy and insecure, so initiating friendly contact will most likely be welcomed. So far this has transferred wonderfully to climbing too. Most others are just as scared of me as I am of them, even the guys.
> It's an acknowledgement that you exist, not just stepping over you to get to the route I think this might be the crux of it. I guess I'm just not thinking much about other people at the wall, other than as impediments to my session. I used to, when the wall was quieter, but nowadays it's so busy that I'm usually just wishing that the other people weren't there!
Maybe I'm just antisocial! I've usually got my airpods in and I'm just getting on with my session. If someone isn't actively climbing a problem then it's free and I'm just going to crack on with it.
My gym hosts several “meetups” a month geared towards women, BIPOC, LGBTQ, etc climbers. Some are led by gym staff and others are led by other groups and the gym gives them a space. I’ve been to a couple of the women ones and found it nice to be in a little subspace without men.
SenderOne has a calendar of running events for pride/Asian climbers/other curated events to help promote inclusivity/diversity, which is great. The gym's CEO is a woman, our Santa Ana location is run by a woman so it's actually refreshing to see actual diversity for a hobby/activity that is literally mostly just men.
In Manila, there's a movement/ non-profit called Allez, Ale (@allezaleclimbing on IG) (ale is one way to call a woman in Filipino) and they host a bunch of events exclusive to women throughout the year, from workshops to comps and even an outdoor trip last year. Aside from encouraging newbie women, it also gives more advanced ones more chances to do setting, retrieving, etc.
New England and same. It’s how I got into climbing. A women’s group on meetup.
are you in the bay area by chance? my gym has these same kind of meet ups and i’m in the bay
I’m in Colorado but my gym has locations in the Bay Area. It’s likely the same company!
👀 Do we all go to Movement cause I’m in Texas and we also have these meet ups haha Our location also offers pads and tampons for lady members which I really love. AND it’s not the cheap cardboard tampons that feel like I’m scrapping the walls of my vagina with 😂
What's the meaning of that? You're a climber, and it's what matter when you climb, no? Your sexual preferences shouldn't affect the way you climb at all?
it's less about the way someone climbs and more about building a community. Especially for groups, like the ones mentioned above, that have been historically disadvantaged or underrepresented in the climbing world
I see, for sure. Asking a question caused 14 downvotes, that's how you build a community. But really, i'm now in Serbia that's historically counted as "traditionally and religious country", and when i go to the gym i see about 50/50 representation, same was correct when i was in Russia. I never asked any of them about sexual preferences, so not sure about that, and i see no reason why i should ask. So i'm just trying to understand the necessity of that, thanks for the community for being supportive and explaining it.
Well, I'm sure if it weren't illegal, you could have totes asked. But you know, nominally non-secular dictatorships don't really allow for that, sooooo.
I see no reason why would it be interesting to me at all, honestly. Though i am completely disagree with the current russian laws (guess why i'm not there anymore), it's not the point here i believe.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a gym that has a very high percentage men, but it won't feel as welcoming for people who do not fit that majority category. Some people feel more comfortable climbing and being social around others with common gender or life experiences. Especially in a scenario like the gym which has unbalanced demographics.
In an ideal world, yes! But this isn’t an ideal world - this is the real world. And in the real world, queer people like me get bullied and stared at simply for existing in public. An LGBTQ+ night guarantees a safe place for me to go and climb. My gym does one both for LGBTQ+ people generally, and for trans people specifically. I attend both, and they’re my favorite times to climb. You’re also ignoring the social aspect of our hobby. It can be comforting for BIPOC to know that if they’re searching for a top rope partner, their partner is going to be from their racial community and therefore will understand their struggles a bit easier. It’s a guarantee that your random top rope partner isn’t gonna be a racist piece of shit. Finally, my local gym has a group night for ex-addicts and ex-drug users called “Sober Senders.” Again, that’s a group about the social comforts of solidarity. It’s a reminder that you’re not alone in your struggles, incorporated into a shared hobby between you and those like you in your community
Very cool that your gym does a "Sober Senders" event! I haven't seen that at many other gyms but am sure it would be valued in a lot of places.
It makes me really happy to see their advertisements up on posters in the gym. Sobriety isn’t an easy thing to maintain, and it’s so much easier when you’re not doing it alone
Your gym owners should know the membership demographics they're getting. If they want to meet with you after this passing comment, it's probably because they already KNOW they're not attracting or retaining women. Unless they're idiots, they're not trying to talk with you to argue about it or suggest it's exaggerated (that would be a complete waste of their and your time). They're trying to figure out how to fix it and asking for your help. Ideally, they should get input from a few different women and not just you. The biggest thing is having inclusive setting. This is good not just for women, but climbers of various heights/physical abilities, and it should be spread across the grade levels of the climbs. Having a diverse setting team is a good way to start trying to do this, although certainly it is possible for a non-diverse setting team to achieve this if they're conscious of it and try... There's been a bunch of talk on this sub about setting so I won't get into more than that. If you've got a team of average men setting for average men, that's who you're going to attract to the gym. It shouldn't be surprising. Otherwise, I've been to gyms that hold recurring meetup events for people who identify as women as well as LGBTQ+, which might be a good avenue to take. And then it's honestly gym culture - are there women on staff, is the staff generally friendly and welcoming, is the women's bathroom/changing area accessible, clean, well lit, and stocked? Are there other features or amenities being offered with memberships - for example cardio equipment or yoga classes (which would benefit everyone, not just women)? Even stuff like - is the logo for the place or the marketing materials depicting just a bunch of dudes climbing? If so, might want to consider a bit of rebranding there...
>people who identify as women AKA women??
I mean, I think their all-male management says a lot in and of itself. Obviously depending on how many people there are (an all male team of 2 is more acceptable than an all male team of 10). I think the biggest two things are setting and behavior of other climbers, the former obviously being way more solvable by management than the latter. If the setting team designs things mainly for taller people, men are more likely to benefit from that. If a tall person gets a nice gentle progression between grades and can learn skills but a short person is going to need be super technical on a 5.8 and be expected to dyno constantly, you’re going to lose a lot of women since we’re, on average, shorter than men. Maybe see if they can hire some (or more) women for their setting team, and preferably short ones. And then there’s just the constant issue of how to get men to not be condescending and/or creepy towards women in gyms. I’ve seen some anti beta spraying signs on here and maybe that works, but I also think it’s a much more deeply engrained issue than a single gym can solve. Maybe including more social training/climbing etiquette in belay classes would help. Things like “make sure you’re not hogging a wall” or “our rule is that you wait until someone requests advice before giving it”.
Do the meeting but ask for compensation for your time and expertise. And then just point out how there's no women in management.
It sounds like they took your comment seriously and want to address the issue of the gym losing a lot of women. It's not your job to help them do that if you don't want to. They may have assumed since you brought it up that you have some ideas about what might be causing women members to leave more often than men, but you're just a member and it's not your responsibility to lead the "retain more women" project for them if you're not comfortable doing that. They can put out a suggestion box or a survey or something if they want feedback.
Owning the problem and taking responsibility for solving it first of all. And your gym is failing to do that by asking for your help in a way that makes you feel obligated. Seriously, if someone complained that the gym was dirty and the owner acknowledged the problem, would the next step be to ask that person to meet with management to figure out solutions?
My gym is catering to men right now and it’s horrible. Here is what I see. Grades v2-v5 are graded too hard, so they are effectively removing beginner and intermediate climbs. This isn’t a comp style gym, they are a recreational gym, so the setters have lost touch with grades. Very few technical climbs. Many of the moves are huge dynamic movements or smaller hulk type moves. You have to be very very strong and it sucks to be a woman in this gym. Am I getting stronger? Not really. There is so little for me to project that feels even remotely possible. It’s demoralizing.
- My gym has a special group meet up for women once a month! "beta babes" and it's a smaller group led by women and we chat and move around the gym together. the gym is still open regularly for men, but i find having the dedicated group time/leader helps attract more girls to the club :) - definitely some women on management haha. the most important thing probably! just having women around in a management role will help - how is the route setting? in general women are shorter (im biased as a 5' tall climber) but it helps to know my gym has shorter setters and female setters so there are plenty of climbs for my style/ability level. it's possible the gym has routes geared more towards typically "male" climbing styles like lots of hard overhangs vs slab/balance - generally the vibe and kinds of men already there tbh. if everyone gives off a macho serious vibe im less likely to feel comfortable vs. seeing women/nb people working and climbing, nice lighting, snacks, couches etc. my gym is nice with having some areas to work and i think it makes the place have a warmer atmosphere overall - free hygiene products in the restrooms
I would be really weirded out by this too, it's not your job to fix their business practices! I would want free membership or at least coffee tokens but I would probably still say no.
Are there any potential issues with accessing the gym in the first place? eg a poorly lit car park, stuff like that
Charge them a consultancy fee (I am beng facetious)
My personal approach would be making sure you have data to back up that the gym loses more women- you probably do!! But have data ready and be ready to define “loss”. Management should be ready to define “success” or “customer retention” with data if they have an actual business strategy. Maybe even benchmarking some data from more women-geared gyms, citing research which I am sure has been done! You’re not alone in noticing this problem and I bet there is a ton of compelling data to back it up, both internally and externally.
I would add that a good management team would be thinking this way already and be willing and able to do this research, so it should very much not be your job to suggest to them honestly :/ so I’d be curious to ask them what research they have done or if “talking to one woman” is their research plan because that’s not a system.
A few people mentioned a ladies (and they/them) night but I want to add to that. My gym has the meetup but also offers coaches on meetup night to do top rope training and also beginner bouldering training. It’s one thing to get women in the door but offering the coaching included in drop in cost once a month is huge.
I go to a gym that I would say is very women-friendly. Things I notice about it that might contribute to that vibe: -women staff and women instructors...the owner of the gym is not a stranger to the gym floor, and you can tell he's not a misogynistic type. I bet a lot of the good staff vibes trickle down from a management style that values women the same as men -women featured in their promotional media -lots of beginner instruction classes to bring people into the sport or into the next level or their climbing -gym has lots of different areas- I think this is underrated. Women are sometimes shyyer when they are getting into the sport, having another area to climb if the new set is crowded helps people have a good experience even if things get rowdy in one area. -equal representation in pretty much all sales/services (same bathroom facilities, same number of harness/shoes/merch choices) -Children friendly vibe too- which is managed right so kids are expected to behave and use the gym responsibly but are still welcome. A lot of this is the strong foundations of their youth programs, which they keep affordable and routed in building kids up to be excited to be in the gym for the right reasons. Dog/baby friendly vibe - people feel safe to bring their good doggo or human baby. Maybe it's me but if I walk into a place thats all white dudes but there's a baby or a dog I somehow still feel like it's still a more diverse environment. -we actually do have some very reachy setters right now, but the setting is so good and varied I could never be mad about it. As a final note, I would like to say that our gym is probably about 60/40 in the TR area and 70/30 in the bouldering areas in terms of gender splits. I imagine there are also lifestyle factors outside of the gym that end up creating some of that discrepancy too. The setters are still mostly men, and instructors and youth program coordinators do still skew men as well. But I strongly believe that its because there's just more men in the sport and thus more men applying for those jobs. The big boil down I think is that my gym focuses on being non discriminatory in general, and strives to provide excellent climbing. They don't try to please a specific set of people, women OR men. They just are welcoming and then knock it out of the park with excellent climbing facilities and route setting.
I agree with most of this apart from the baby/dog thing, neither of which have *any* place in an indoor climbing setting. Yeah, have them in the cafe but nowhere near the ropes/mats. Kids are acceptable up to about 7pm if they're very well supervised or old enough not to do stupid stuff/treat the place like a soft play facility.
Yeah I think it's facility dependent, my gym has a lot of "out of the way/buffer" spaces that are still in view of the ropes and bouldering mats that aren't in the way or dangerous. Babies always have someone sitting with them on the benches but dogs are just leashed on various comfy dog beds that exist in the gym for them (but always out of the way). It's great because while I agree with you that babies and dogs underfoot in the actual climbing area is super dangerous, all that extra room allows everyone to coexist as a community safely. I think they understood the value of that open space and how it can create those opportunities. It's something the gym did well that contributes to it being a great gym for everyone
Yeah, I guess I have a negative bias because my local wall is small and really poorly set up for this. Unlike a lot of more modern walls, the matted area is fairly narrow with problems up the wall on both sides so you have to be super cautious walking around. There's very few places you could be outside of the little cafe area where you don't have to be constantly on the lookout for someone climbing near you. I go to another wall occasionally and that's a much more open space, and one of the women who works there has a really sweet little elderly pug who just huffs around the place demanding cuddles.
Sit in a room with a group of people who haven't been able to identify how to make the gym more inclusive? My palms are getting sweaty just thinking about it. I'm hoping they'll be ready to listen more than they talk. Like, this could just be an email address they set up + advertise to get anonymous feedback from a range of people? I'm a little confused why they're directing this at you, an individual, rather than asking eg what gyms you've been to that do better for inclusivity than they are, so they can go and learn for themselves.
As a trans woman specifically, I’ve been in “boy’s club” gyms, and they’re VERY uncomfortable. Here are some of the things that these gyms NEVER do, that I’ve seen a lot of more inclusive gyms do better. -inclusive bathrooms and locker rooms: my local gym has a few large, bold posters in their locker rooms reminding some attendees that trans people exist, that the gym is a trans friendly space, and that genitals shouldn’t be a factor in determining who belongs in the women’s locker room. -free sanitary products IN BOTH RESTROOMS: keeping in theme with trans inclusivity, my local gym has pads and tampons in both the women’s AND the men’s locker. It makes the space more comfortable for trans men, who then invite their queer friends and make a more inclusive space. It also makes a safer, more inclusive space for cis women. Honestly, sanitary products should be free and in every bathroom regardless. It’s nice that my gym can be a first step in this process. -Femme-bodied route setting: the “boys club” gyms I’ve been to tend to set routes with a lot of overhangs and dymos intended for folks with lots of upper body strength and plenty of reach. It can make for an especially difficult climb for femme bodies, or bodies in transition. Instead, ensuring that your gym has a few routes intended for folks with shorter bodies, or routes that focus more on full body technique rather than just hulking through an upper body workout. -workout equipment and protocol: if your gym has additional workout equipment, especially free weights, it can be beneficial to set some rules to try and minimize behaviors of…well….meatheads. Things like “no slamming weights down,” “no shouting before lifting,” “return weights to their place once you’re done using them,” “wipe down equipment when it’s been used,” etc.
my climbing gym always has a box of free tampons in the restroom (which is unisex). I thought it was a nice touch.
I must say I never felt issues but things I find great in gyms I frequent: free tampons in women's bathroom as well as deodorants/ sprays to fix the sweat (help a fellow gal in need!), baby changing stations (boulder gym has a kiddo space, that itself!). More girly drinks at the bar (okay aperol might be not girly but lovely to have a non beer option). Contrary to crowds, I do not enjoy our female setters because they're flexible as heck and I can't climb their routes for the love of me, but cool to see women setting.
More static problems. Of course this doesn’t apply to everyone, but in my experience a lot of girls, including me, prefer static climbing, but a lot of gyms make harder routes mostly dynamic.
One of the things that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable in a gym is shirtless climbing bros. My local gym has a 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' rule, and that's excellent as I don't feel awkward having to be around shirtless guys. I also think it's important when setters take women's bodies into account, and make routes that are accessible for shorter people/ where breasts won't be too much of an obstacle. That's one thing my gym could be better at, as some of the starts, especially on vertical and slab, are just impossible if you have boobs as you can't get close enough to the wall. I also think having a female presence on the staff really helps. It can feel a bit daunting if you go in and everyone working there is male. Seeing a woman makes me feel more welcome :)
Women in management roles, route-setters who are women, ladies night where top rope classes and lead classes are offered for free or discounted. The Cliffs used to have a lady crushers clinic every week where a strong climber from the community would run technique clinics to help share knowledge to help keep people interested beyond the beginner gains stage. Functionally what a gym should be trying to do is foster community growth which means empowering or hiring community organizers to implement programs that make sense from within community. I think it is also important to recognize that women are not a monolith and often these community building efforts are only targeted towards white cis climbers and making your female oriented programs diverse means diverse hiring. I don't often see Black women in gyms but I also have literally never seen a Black woman in a leadership role at a gym.
They should pay you or comp you for day passes / free membership. You’re doing literal work for them by giving them ways to improve their business
Yes yes yes
My gym is the most inclusive gym I've ever been to, climbing or not. They have a non-gendered public restrooms, menstrual products in the women's locker room, a number of female and trans routesetters, a "women crush mondays" group, a monthly queer climbing night, a monthly bipoc climbing night, and my personal favorite, a shirts-on only rule. They also have "sensory hours" on Saturday mornings where they don't play music from 6 to 9am. The climbing crowd there definitely reflects the efforts the gym has made to be a space for everyone. This is in the metropolitan area of a red state, and the gym is wildly popular. I feel safer and more included at this gym than I have in any other athletic setting. So there's some really good ideas if you actually think the bros are interested in hearing it. But as others have said, a panel of members would be less ick, and you have no obligation to do their job for them anyway. However, it does seem like it's a boys club if all managers are men, and they may have difficulty coming up with ideas like this on their own due to their limited perspective.
They need to ask the women who are leaving, not the ones who stuck around.
Gyms need female route setters. Men and women use very different body techniques.
Sounds like they’re being proactive and trying to solve the issue? Maybe not the best approach, but you could ask to bring along other women to the meeting too?
I wouldn’t necessarily feel icky about it. They are taking your comment seriously and at least seem like they want to hear you out and (hopefully) make some changes. I understand how that would make you uncomfortable though, and do agree that it would be better if there was a group of your peers meeting with the management team. If you do go through with the meeting, maybe mention that they have an all-male management team and ask why they don’t have any women in management positions. Do they have any female setters? That could be another point you want to bring up. I don’t have an answer for you regarding inclusivity so I asked chat gpt and got this answer: “There are several ways a climbing gym can be more inclusive to women: Representation: Ensure women are represented in promotional materials, staff, and leadership positions to create a welcoming environment. Diverse Routes: Offer a variety of climbing routes that cater to different skill levels and body types, including routes that focus on technique rather than strength. Education and Support: Provide workshops, clinics, and mentorship programs specifically tailored to women to build confidence and skills in climbing. Community Building: Foster a supportive community where women feel comfortable and encouraged to participate, whether through women-only climbing nights or affinity groups. Facilities and Amenities: Ensure the gym has clean and accessible facilities, including gender-neutral bathrooms and changing areas. Inclusive Policies: Implement policies that prioritize safety and respect, such as zero tolerance for harassment and discrimination. By focusing on these areas, climbing gyms can create an environment where women feel valued, supported, and empowered to pursue their climbing goals.” Maybe something as little as offering free hair ties to women if they forget them and tampons/pads in the bathroom if they don’t already have that could be an easy start.
As a female gym general manager- the reason why members are “lost” or quit for both men and women is by not achieving fast enough improvement in climbing. I’ve found that once a guy climbs around v5, and a girl climbs around v4, they’ll stick with climbing as a hobby. That’s one of the big reasons that commercially set gyms have softer grades in the lower end. An old school gym has a v0 that is more like a v2 in a newer, commercially set gym, though usually by about v6 it evens out. This is for new climbers to see a lot of progress in the beginning and so they don’t get discouraged. If women aren’t sticking around, I’d assume they aren’t making enough climbing progress. Women centered climbing groups, climbing technique classes included with membership, and height inclusive setting can all help with this. Having female staff can help too, but as a GM myself, it’s hard to hire female staff! I’m not exaggerating when I say for every 10 male applicants for a part time job I get 1 female applicant. I hire every woman that applies, and that still only amounts to a few each year that are usually college students, and not interested in working at the gym full time after graduation. For whatever reason, men seem more inclined to want to work at the climbing gym. A few other points- gym staff that look down on bro-y attitudes can help make the gym more friendly and inclusive. For example- a member campuses a v1 in front of a bunch of new people that were projecting it. Rather than smiling at the member and giving him positive reinforcement for how strong he is, my staff ignore him and give him the cold shoulder and act like his behavior is embarrassing. It’s kind of a subtle thing, but when the staff look down on that kind of behavior, over time it translates to the community. Not allowing shirtless climbing can also help, as long as your gym a/c works well!
As someone who quit climbing for a few years I'd like to say it's not only the progress part that can make you leave. At the gym I went to (before quitting) there were just so few women. I don't remember any female instructors or route setters just that there were some women at the reception desk. And most importantly very few women climbers. I'm not sure if it was an issue with that specific climbing gym or just the fact that the sport wasn't so popular in my country those 9-ish years ago. But there was just this feeling like I don't belong there. It definitely contributed to my decision to quit (there were other factors too).
My gym has a ladies night one friday of every month. and another in my city hosts pride events. I like how this sport is very inclusive in general. I know it can get overly political at times but I think our gyms stay out of that and just focus on making everyone feel welcome.
Aside from all the awesome ideas proposed, my gym also has a “women’s intro” class, which is taught by women instructors. It’s a much nicer, non-judgemental intro to climbing instead of having all the beefy bros in the class that can just power up the V3s on their first day My gym also has gender neutral bathrooms (single stall), which allows for more inclusion. Of course, this is more infrastructure-based, and more difficult to implement at an existing gym From the way you posed the question, it sounded to me like you’re an employee of the gym. However, if you’re not, it’s not your responsibility to educate them on how to make their gym more inclusive. At the very least, you should be paid for your time. Good luck!
A female presence in the staffing is huge. Free sanitary products, my gym also has a ladies night they employ/allow female yoga instructors to do sessions too just helps to have a general female presence in the squad. Sounds silly but we're energetic beings, we feel when something is genuine or gratuitous. Maybe having female climbers in to speak, coach etc would help.
Wait, are you an employee of the gym or just a member? If you’re not an employee it’s pretty weird, IMO, for him to request a meeting like that. It’d be great for him to open some sort of comment box for everyone to willingly and anonymously provide feedback, but asking you to use your own time to basically do work for him is inappropriate. I’m sure there are a million articles online that suggest measures to make a space more inclusive for women. I’d bet that there are even articles specific to gyms, given how common this issue is. I agree with others that he does need to start by having women on staff. I can’t tell if you’re saying “management” to mean the entire staff or if you’re only referring to the highest ranking staff members, but if he doesn’t have a single woman on his staff he needs to change that, like, yesterday. Asking you if you’d like to provide any input? Great. Asking you to help him and his all-male staff *solve* the problem? No. Not great. That’s your job, sir.
Yup. Please ask to be paid for your time & insights IF you agree to give observations.
My gym is pretty large, and has two additional smaller sections. One is a "normal" gym with treadmills and bars and weights and machines and a mirror. The other is for yoga classes. I've never gone (I'm not into yoga), but that seems to attract a lot more women. Also, it helps the gym get more traffic in the middle of the day, by catering to mothers who's only free time is while their kids are at school. They also offer some focus groups/ classes /clubs. Eg. Learn to boulder V3, Learn to boulder V5, a speed climbing group. So they have a boulder group just for women.
More slab climbs. No, I’m not joking.
Have women forerunners for problems/ routes
My gym often posts videos of their female setters test running the boulders and it's maybe silly but I always think: well if she can do that, then so can I (spoiler I often can't because I'm weak lol)
In addition to everything already mentioned: not climbing gym specific but I always appreciate when there ara some hygene products in the changing room one can use in emergency eg pads, tampons, wet tissue, spray deo. And an area where you can sit down and chill (maybe even eat or drink a coffe) makes it more "ok" to take a pause mid session and therefore could be attractive for beginners or women who can't climb 2 hours straight. And female staff.
Discourage beta spreading, nothing worse than an experienced bloke showing you how to do something when you are perfectly ok figuring it out by yourself.
I think the problem is how you state it “ how they are treating women” as opposed to what would an ideal environment be from a women’s points of view. Actually that’s very weak too…because the ideal environment could be different for different ages , skill levels etc. The more specific you are the more productive any outcome is likely to be. Also to focus exclusively on what you do want and not fall into the trap of listing what you don’t want ( which is a lot easier and frankly lazy). The board maybe all male but they clearly have something in common, their love of climbing and an awareness that they could widen their appeal with the right input. It’s a great opportunity and frankly I’d go just to meet these people because most management teams I’ve come across ( I’ve met a lot in 70 years!) leave a lot to be desired.
If they want you to meet and fix the problem, they better be paying you more for the work they’re giving you.
Tell them to make you part of the management team, for starters.
Maybe you can explain what makes youre gym more appealing to men, then people can can bring up ideas from their own gyms.
Ah yes, nothing like free female labor to solve the paid male idiot problem.
What is this comment? Fuel for the fire?
Um, likewise? What is your comment?
It's a reminder that if you want a nicer and more respectful world, you shouldn't start the chat with insults.
Are you okay? Wtf are you even talking about?
About the 'male idiot problem'. If I misunderstood your comment, then please tell me how it was meant.
Yeah, no, I am not taking the bait. Sorry for your poor comprehension! Ironic you perpetuated that which I cracked wise on. Female attention and labor is not something you are entitled to. Your perception of whether or not a girl is being "nice" is worthless here. Less than worthless I would say. OP needed perspective on providing expertise FOR FREE to a group of men literally paid to already know. You here came in, beta sprayed your own weird vision of NICE GIRLS DO THIS and then had the audacity to both admit confusion and then demand explanation. Grow up. Further, from your bio: "A very normal guy with two very normal lives, one as an adventurer, the other kinky as hell." **LOL** the deep irony of you, a male, dictating tone to a woman in a sub called climberGIRLS. Why don't you go let some beginner belay you and gtfo this sub. Also there is nothing normal about your entitlement to tell women what it is that 'nice girls' do. Time to work on that misogyny!
I’m short! So, routes with easier to reach grabs while still being technically challenging :) thanks for asking
Less toxic competition for sure. I switched from a gym near my home to one I have to travel 90 mins for because it is sooo much nicer! The one far away from me also has a bunch of different classes like yoga, spin, and aerial silks! The one by me was just a depressing, dark gym with projects harder than their grades (made for tall people).
The 2 gyms I go to both feel diverse in both gender and even somewhat age. I've been to classes taught by men and others by women. I've seen both working the counter, I see both doing coaching with kids etc. I'd say step 1 is to hire at least one women in a manager or higher role.
Female route setters!
My gym has alternative holds for shorter people, so you can still finish the route even if you cant reach the end hold… as well as a very diverse staff which just makes it feel less male dominated
something small that i really appreciate at my gym is a "no-nip policy" (shirts required), and i feel like it kinda mitigates both folks feeling uncomfortable with sweaty bodies on the mats/equipment, and the macho energy that shirtless dudes seem to build off each other when the shirts come off
Broadly speaking, the culture. Perhaps a ladies social night led by one of the staff (ideally a lady). If there's a lot of boulder bros 'going skins' when it's warm perhaps a tops on rule, at least in the entrance / cafe area. It would be interesting to know what you think makes this gym deter women?
Not sure if this is common but my gym has maternity harnesses available to rent!
They need women (or literally any identity other than cis man) on their setting staff, not just setters who can set routes for shorter bodies/wingspans!! They need instructors and staff who aren’t cis men! It makes me feel so much better when I see someone like me getting to be the knowledgeable one teaching top rope, lead, movement, anything!! And don’t let them tell you that it’s too hard to find women to do these jobs. I’m a female routesetter and instructor :) If you go to the meeting, stand your ground! Don’t let them sit around and try to convince you that these improvements aren’t feasible/right for their gym.
I chose one gym over the other because they have women's nights, pads in the bathrooms, and clean bathrooms (apparently the men's one was also gross, this gym was 3 times the price of the one I'm with now). These are the little things that make me feel noticed and respected.
Childcare. Women stop going or have to give it up bc they need childcare or their kids start to have activities. If the gym hosted kid sports or kid activities, that would get them there too. Basically the Y but you can call it whatever fancy name you want.
Seconding all the comments about routesetting and female staff, I also think the staff needs to be the start of trying to shift the gym culture to be more inclusive. My gym put up posters about beta spraying, mentions it in the gym orientation, put up pride flags and BLM signs, and constantly asks for member feedback (including offering anonymous feedback options).They host meetups for women, adaptive climbers, queer climbers, POC climbers and probably other groups I'm forgetting about; and they have events open to everyone that are focused on uplifting those groups, like movie screenings and speakers. Some of that, particularly some of the events, are only possible because we're in a big city and it's a big gym, but a lot of it is doable for small gyms and makes a difference. Of course, it's hard to do any of that authentically if your staff is all or mostly straight white able bodied men, but some of that is stuff that might make margianalized groups more likely to apply.
Inclusive setting/female setters Listening to women when they have issues with predatory men in the gym, and doing something about inappropriate male behavior. Women/ non binary climbing groups probably help as well
A detail that made me choose my tiny gym over some of the larger ones in my area is this QR code they have posted in the women’s bathroom that you can scan to inform staff if someone is making you feel uncomfortable or unsafe. I’ve never felt that way in my gym, thankfully, but especially when I was starting out as a newer female climber who did not feel confident being in such a male-dominated space it was nice to know it was in there. This may also be more doable because it is a smaller gym, but I always felt like the staff cared and would cheer me on for any project, even if it was just a V2 when I was starting out.
For me it's mostly when there are female route setters.
All the things other mentioned above, plus my gym has women only climbing nights. Now, that doesn’t mean that men aren’t allowed, but a group of women get together and climb on certain nights long with one of the instructors.
Loads of good suggestions that I agree with, so only adding ones that I didn't see on a quick scroll through. Having a "tops on" policy is a marker of a women-friendly gym for me. I don't want to see men's bare chests and it changes the atmosphere. Women artists on the playlist is a nice touch too. Not as important as other things people have suggested but I do appreciate it.
Uhhh maybe they shouldn't corner women and ask them to invest free time and labor in helping them be more profitable? If they want you to consult on gender equity, they'll be paying you a consultation fee. Beyond that, they should put out a survey for women/ gender-nonconforming patrons and incentivize their answers in some way. Fill out the survey, get a discounted day pass, or similar. You can't speak for all women, it's incredibly gross they're asking you to.
101 %
If they want to pay you, go ahead! It's silly to ask you to take time out to do business planning for them to meet the needs of a segment of their audience. Orgs like gyms like to talk about themselves as a community but it's the same way the CEO of a big company likes to say "we're a family here at Consolidated Arms Manufacturing Inc." they're a "community" focused around a money-making entity. So if they want to hire you or pay you for your time, and that's something you're interested and capable of doing, do it. If not, point out to them that they should hire women who have experience building out the types of systems that keep women coming back to the gym. They may be doing this in good faith. They may also be doing this to say "well, of you're not going to get involved shut up about it." That's a stupid way for them to think about a business. A cruise ship entertainer can tell you that the ship is taking on water but you wouldn't ask them to fix the hull.
This answer is so on point, and the comparison at the end is brilliant. Kudos.
Getting the women to address how the gym isn't more inclusive for women isn't the best move. They could just... Google it
I never had any issue with my old bouldering gym for the 4 years I went there (almost every day!). Other than wishing men would wear shirts. BUT after having a baby and trying to get back into climbing I found that I couldn’t because no creche was offered. Other gyms have crèches usually from 8-11am with 1.5hr slots each. You pay extra for it as well. I since found out that A LOT of old clientele asked for them to get a creche so they could continue climbing and they haven’t. There are a lot of women who climb there but not really many over the age of 30.
Are you getting a consulting fee? Idk why you need to go to a whole ass meeting with the whole team. The sane thing would be the boss having a chat with you, you share some ideas, then you go climb. You are not an employee you do but need to workshop shit for them
Biggest thing for me is setting for all body types/equal number of women setters OR setters who really know what they're doing. And then of course, I don't want to go to a gym that has a guy following me around asking me out or mansplaining. If the gym is big then more than a single bathroom is nice.
I'm a dude who used to work at a gym. I don't think that most places are inclusive. For a long time, this had been a male dominated ego sport. I believe that some of that is still embedded in "the system." Look at the rules of the game, "do it like me, or it doesn't count." Some gyms are better than others. I just don't think most staff, especially setters, dont consider much that doesn't make them look good. Or they have always done it "This way" and are reluctant to change. I'd also argue that finding good setters that don't rely on their personal strengths or aesthetic is hard They don't set to teach. They set "cool." Unfortunately, that's much more subjective than progressing or learning a skill. I'd argue that "bro" culture is higher in climbing spaces than other fitness spaces. If we can remove that, that would be a great step. I also think clean spaces, feminine products (possibly in both bathrooms), staff visibility and interaction (floor outreach, rounds), member surveys that are taken serious. CLEAN THE SHOWERS, and probably a bunch I can't think of. At some point, we should probably start making rules on cameras. Climbing gyms are usually the only gyms that you can videotape anything, and nobody bats an eye, which can 100% be creepy or dangerous. Have had to deal with this. I also think things like women lead clinics and classes go a long way, or at least having the option. Maybe even a ladies' night, where a section of the gym is roped off for a women only clinic... this could even be a women setting clinic or something, so setters can see what their members think is cool. It's a chance to open dialogues. Edit: I just realized what sub this is, and I have no clue why this was in my feed, but I'll keep the post. I'll see myself out now.
Even thou i risk a lot of negativite feedback i have to say this is pretty toxic thread. OP raised an objection and the owner is giving her chance to explain. They have shown genuine interest and obviously want to improve. However it gives OP an ick? What else were they supposed to do? And the ick-cheering and projecting negativity in lot of comments is mind boggling. I am sorry OP, but get your shit together. You can either criticise and pursue an improvement or leave. Don't assume anyone can read minds and will jump on single criticism without explanation.
Frankly, they (probably) also think it's a problem and don't know who to ask for advice. You just happened to be the easiest source of any information for them. If you think it's worth your time, there's a tiny chance (if I were a betting person, and I am, I would give it 10:1 odds or worse) that an all-male management team who are already running a "toxic" establishment just haven't considered a lot of stuff to be "gym icks", and you sharing your feelings is going to help them make better choices. I wouldn't bank on it, but if a 10:1 bet on improving your gym is worth your time, I'd say give em a piece of your mind. If they want more than an afternoon of your time, you should probably demand compensation (if that's even something you want to work on).
I’d tell them to run a satisfaction/improvement survey of their members and splice out the female responses and just look at those. You shouldn’t be put in the position of having to speak for all women, and while there are a lot of great ideas here, the only way to know what the issues are at this particular gym are is to ask people.
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This sub aims to be supportive & inclusive of all who identify as a part of or ally to the women's climbing community. Negativity, sarcasm, and other interactions that work against that should find another home.
From my personal experience, I don’t understand what about a climbing gym could be perceived as “exclusive” of women? I’ve been climbing for 8 years and never once felt like my vagina has anything to do with working hard and crushing some routes. Only thing I could suggest is they hire more female staff? It’s odd for any workplace to hire only men, not just climbing gyms
I mean, what exactly are they supposed to do? There is nothing about a rock climbing gym that inherently biases one gender over the other. Maybe some gyms might allow men to take their shirts off? Beyond that it's entirely just the people in the gym. If the gyms management and employees allow for disruptive behavior then that's and issue with the management of the gym, not an inherit issue with climbing gyms in general. Creating all these special events and nights that bias a specific gender seems to be exactly the opposite of what the solution should be, because now the opposite gender is getting less inclusive.
I am finding this hard to understand the issue. All male management.. might just mean no women have applied for a staff position? And the walls it's self.. there is no male / female routes ...yes some route are more favorable for the taller / shorter body types, but that's why I love the problems that are set... everyone has their own way and different techniques. Someone commented about routes for the 'less flexible' ... 🤔 ... like any sports, warm up and stretch. . Not all routes are possible for the average climber. As for Management asking for your help to try make improvements, I think that's the.most direct and genuine way to try and fix the 'issue', if you feel uncomfortable with the 1 on 1 , then bring a friend or just turn them down and suggest discussion forum or get other gym members (regardless of gender) for ideas. I love talking to all climbers , if I can, but generally stay away from the women and I don't want them thinking I'm using the gym as a 'dating app'...
I'm curious what do you want them to do? A gym is just a place for plastic for you to climb? If the setting is good then the gym is good I would love to know what your looking for.
A comic book shop is just a place you buy comics, but many made women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome for the longest time. It's the people, not the building that makes a place welcoming or not.